From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 1 00:20:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA05930 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 00:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net ([151.164.30.28]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA05886 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 00:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from evil0r ([65.65.203.12]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GCM003YOZC31H@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for ietf@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:07:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:06:59 -0500 From: Mike McElhiney <3vil@primary.net> Subject: New guy To: ietf@ietf.org Message-id: <006401c0d1eb$c9b0c9a0$8701a8c0@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0061_01C0D1C1.E0A0C5E0" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C0D1C1.E0A0C5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am new to this group. My knowledge is very limited as i = am just getting into the feild. Been working as a computer support = specialist (phone monkey) for an ISP (Mpower Communications) for 9 = monthes now. (temp job til i got out of college). Just reading on some = of the discussions and i am for the most part completely lost. HEH I = just need to be exposed to this more and i will start to understand = mostly what is going on since i havent been in the field for very long = and limited with what i can do at work. Just wanted to say "hey" to = everyone and thanks. So i guess i will say Hey, and head to bed. --Mike McElhiney A+ (so far at least) ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C0D1C1.E0A0C5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,  I am new to this = group.  My=20 knowledge is very limited as i am just getting into the feild.  = Been=20 working as a computer support specialist (phone monkey) for an ISP = (Mpower=20 Communications) for 9 monthes now. (temp job til i got out of = college). =20 Just reading on some of the discussions and i am for the most part = completely=20 lost. HEH  I just need to be exposed to this more and i will start = to=20 understand mostly what is going on since i havent been in the field for = very=20 long and limited with what i can do at work.  Just wanted to say = "hey" to=20 everyone and thanks.  So i guess i will say Hey, and head to=20 bed.
 
--Mike McElhiney
A+ (so far at least)
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C0D1C1.E0A0C5E0-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 1 09:10:25 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA25698 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell.cyberus.ca ([209.195.95.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25601 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hadi@localhost) by shell.cyberus.ca (8.9.3/666/Cyberus Online Inc.) with ESMTP id JAA01806; Tue, 1 May 2001 09:05:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.cyberus.ca: hadi owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:05:34 -0400 (EDT) From: jamal To: "Michael H. Warfield" cc: "McGowan, Jeremy" , "'ietf@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: Wireless and Linux (802.11B) In-Reply-To: <20010430234906.B26051@alcove.wittsend.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Michael H. Warfield wrote: > On Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 10:29:18PM -0400, McGowan, Jeremy wrote: > > Hello, > > > Sorry to spam the group, but I can't find this information anywhere. Has > > anyone been able to make the Compaq WL100 Wireless PCMCIA cards work with > > Linux? Or any other wireless card? > > I don't know about the Compaq card (but if it's based on the > Lucent chipset or related to the Cisco set, it's covered) but I've been These kind of questions get better responses on a Linux mailing lists. The Compaq is an intersil chipset and is supported by Linux Wlan project. This is not part of the Linux kernel proper. http://www.linux-wlan.org/ cheers, jamal From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 1 12:00:42 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA02086 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 12:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kitkat.hotpop.com ([204.57.55.30]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA01966 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotpop.com (unknown [204.57.55.31]) by kitkat.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F8DC303A4 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:56:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zooo (unknown [62.114.65.5]) by zagnut.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 11CB950016; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:56:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <00a101c0d25f$afd56da0$ec41723e@zooo> From: "Mohamed Eldesoky" To: "Mike McElhiney" <3vil@primary.net>, References: <006401c0d1eb$c9b0c9a0$8701a8c0@swbell.net> Subject: Re: New guy Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:54:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01C0D270.27625620" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C0D270.27625620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Mike. It is so nice to find another newbie here. I am a new member too,and feel semi lost. lol I study telecommunications engineering,will graduate this summer. Well Hope you happy dreams lol Mohamed Eldesoky ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Life is to try. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike McElhiney=20 To: ietf@ietf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: New guy Hello all, I am new to this group. My knowledge is very limited as i = am just getting into the feild. Been working as a computer support = specialist (phone monkey) for an ISP (Mpower Communications) for 9 = monthes now. (temp job til i got out of college). Just reading on some = of the discussions and i am for the most part completely lost. HEH I = just need to be exposed to this more and i will start to understand = mostly what is going on since i havent been in the field for very long = and limited with what i can do at work. Just wanted to say "hey" to = everyone and thanks. So i guess i will say Hey, and head to bed. --Mike McElhiney A+ (so far at least) ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C0D270.27625620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Mike.
It is so nice to find another newbie=20 here.
I am a new member too,and feel semi=20 lost.
lol
I study telecommunications = engineering,will=20 graduate this summer.
Well
Hope you happy dreams
lol
 
Mohamed Eldesoky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life is to = try.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike = McElhiney=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 = 5:06 AM
Subject: New guy

Hello all,  I am new to this = group.  My=20 knowledge is very limited as i am just getting into the feild.  = Been=20 working as a computer support specialist (phone monkey) for an ISP = (Mpower=20 Communications) for 9 monthes now. (temp job til i got out of = college). =20 Just reading on some of the discussions and i am for the most part = completely=20 lost. HEH  I just need to be exposed to this more and i will = start to=20 understand mostly what is going on since i havent been in the field = for very=20 long and limited with what i can do at work.  Just wanted to say = "hey" to=20 everyone and thanks.  So i guess i will say Hey, and head to=20 bed.
 
--Mike McElhiney
A+ (so far at least)
------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C0D270.27625620-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 1 15:20:47 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA08094 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web6101.mail.yahoo.com (web6101.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.22.95]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA07984 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010501191335.3045.qmail@web6101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.229.208.4] by web6101.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 01 May 2001 12:13:35 PDT Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:13:35 -0700 (PDT) From: khalid alshafee Subject: im new here To: ietf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org dear frind im new here also ,i hope that you frinds will help me , khalid alshafee i-net+.ciw profwssional,MCP,CCNA ===== khalid alshafeedubai-UAEtele num. 0097143556641 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 1 22:21:36 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA15182 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 1 May 2001 22:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA15154 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 22:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDEF4B10 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:19:53 +0900 (JST) To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: IPv6 network @ IETF51 X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:19:53 +0900 Message-ID: <6505.988769993@itojun.org> Sender: itojun@itojun.org X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org sorry for wide distribution. at IETF51, will there be an officially-supported IPv6 network? if not, who will be in charge for IETF51 network? (i'd like to help). itojun From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 01:50:39 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA23480 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 01:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dalexc02.drtn.corp ([216.46.242.254]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA22416 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 01:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exchange.datareturn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 14:55:11 -0500 Message-ID: <72B2F584B912D41198E500508B0CCDFF065E397E@DALEXCH01> From: Stevan Pierce To: "IETF (E-mail)" Subject: FW: BGP Keepalive Format Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:55:20 -0500 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Stevan Pierce > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 1:59 PM > To: IETF (E-mail) > Subject: BGP Keepalive Format > Importance: High > > All: > > I was looking at the packet format for a BGP keepalive, when I came up > with some questions. Halabi's "Internet Routing Architecture" gives me > some pretty good info on, 19 bytes with 16 for the marker, 2 for the > length, and 1 byte for the length. Since it is a keepalive, there will be > no data following this frame; however, here is where my questions begin. > > According to W. Richard Stevens' book "TCP/IP Illustrated: Volume 1", this > keepalive is an application keepalive as opposed to a TCP keepalive, page > 139 last paragraph. How come? I thought that since BGP is a TCP > session-oriented protocl this keepalive would be layer 4 as opposed to > layer 7. (NOTE: I am also assuming that this keepalive is independent of > the standard TCP keepalive used by TCP/IP under normal circumstances. > > My next question: Since this keepalive if 19 bytes, would I add the > standard Ethernet/802.3 encapsulation padding with the CRc to make the > datagram 6+6+2+4+19=37 bytes [destination addr+srce > addr+(length\type)+CRC+keepalive size=total datagram size]??? Also, would > this keepalive be considered part of the data portion of an ethernet\802.3 > packet? > > > Stevan From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 04:00:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id EAA03356 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 04:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oslo.catalogix.se (oslo.catalogix.se [193.216.234.230]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA03169 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 03:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from t20.catalogix.se ([193.216.234.234] helo=t20) by oslo.catalogix.se with smtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 14urOo-0008VW-00 for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 09:50:14 +0200 From: Roland Hedberg Reply-To: roland@CATALOGIX.SE Organization: Catalogix To: Subject: A remarkable achievement ! Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:37:42 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0105020937420A.00783@t20> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The CPIP (carrier pigeon internet protocol) is finally implemented !! http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 05:00:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA04061 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 05:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from o2ogate.one2one.co.uk (o2ogate.one2one.co.uk [193.131.126.162]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA03901 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 04:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kitts.one2one.co.uk (kitts.one2one.co.uk [149.254.74.217]) by o2ogate.one2one.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28645; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:48:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from mailhost.one2one.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kitts.one2one.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05275; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:48:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from imp01ims.One2One.co.uk (imp01ims [149.254.72.7]) by mailhost.one2one.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06618; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:48:06 +0100 (BST) Received: by imp01ims.one2one.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:46:27 +0100 Message-ID: <493C71DDC649D411B10B00508BCF870401B036DE@bar02mbx.one2one.co.uk> From: Rob Butlin To: "'itojun@iijlab.net'" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: IPv6 network @ IETF51 Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:46:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org The CPIP (carrier pigeon internet protocol) is finally implemented !! http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ Rob Butlin, Senior Network Engineer Data Network Engineering One 2 One Office 44 (0)208 214 2218 Mobile 44 (0)795 738 2510 Fax 44 (0)709 208 8512 rob.butlin@one2one.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: itojun@iijlab.net [mailto:itojun@iijlab.net] Sent: 2 May 2001 3:20 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: IPv6 network @ IETF51 sorry for wide distribution. at IETF51, will there be an officially-supported IPv6 network? if not, who will be in charge for IETF51 network? (i'd like to help). itojun NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER: This email (including attachments) is confidential. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system without copying or disseminating it or placing any reliance upon its contents. We cannot accept liability for any breaches of confidence arising through use of email. Any opinions expressed in this email (including attachments) are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect our opinions. We will not accept responsibility for any commitments made by our employees outside the scope of our business. We do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of such information. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 07:30:33 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id HAA05923 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 07:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from drawbridge.ascend.com (drawbridge.ascend.com [198.4.92.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA05560 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 07:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fw-ext.ascend.com (fw-ext [198.4.92.5]) by drawbridge.ascend.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id EAA21259 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 04:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from russet.ascend.com by fw-ext.ascend.com via smtpd (for drawbridge.ascend.com [198.4.92.1]) with SMTP; 2 May 2001 11:16:28 UT Received: from wopr.eng.ascend.com (wopr.eng.ascend.com [206.65.212.178]) by russet.ascend.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA01951 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 04:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from india.ascend.com (indiamail.india.ascend.com [192.168.64.198]) by wopr.eng.ascend.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA02426 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 04:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ascend.com (waco.india.ascend.com [192.168.64.187]) by india.ascend.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04259 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 16:40:20 +0530 (IST) Sender: ds113@ascend.com Message-ID: <3AEFEB1C.2CBE8245@ascend.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:40:20 +0530 From: Deepak Srivastava Organization: Infosys X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Internal Update Process of BGP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am looking for some clarification on BGP internal update process as stated in section 9.2.1 of rfc 1771. To illustrate my point let me explain using the example given below. According to rfc 1771 an internal update should be sent to internal peers as part of phase 1 itself i.e. before start of phase 2. (x3) ----------C----------- IBGP| AS I |IBGP | | | | EBGP A---------------------B------------M (x2) /AS I IBGP AS I \ AS IV / \ /EBGP \EBGP / \ H K (x1) AS II AS III 1. A, B and C are IBGP peers. 2. H is an EBGP peer of A. 3. K and M are EBGP peers of B. Consider the following scenario in which a bgp speaker, say B, has three updates for same destination x in its Adj-RIBs-IN viz x1, x2 and x3 with degree of preference d1, d2 and d3 such that d3 >d2 >d1. Lets suppose that 1. Local system B does not have Next hop reachability for destination x2 in its Loc-RIB. 2. x3 is originated by one of the internal peers, say C. 3. x1 and x2 are sent by external peers K and M, respectively. According to decision process of rfc1771, x3 having larger DOP, will be installed in Loc-RIB of B as best phase 2 route. Now my questions are : a) Will there ever be a situation when a BGP speaker (B) receive a route (x2) through an EBGP update for which there is no NH reachablity in its Loc_RIB. One way this could happen is if the sending speaker (M) sets some policy for next hop then it may be possible for receiving speaker (B) to not have NH reachability in its Loc-RIB. But then section 5.1.3 of says When advertising a NEXT_HOP attribute to an external peer, a router may use one of its own interface addresses in the NEXT_HOP attribute provided the external peer to which the route is being advertised shares a common subnet with the NEXT_HOP address. This is known as a "first party" NEXT_HOP attribute. A BGP speaker can advertise to an external peer an interface of any internal peer router in the NEXT_HOP attribute provided the external peer to which the route is being advertised shares a common subnet with the NEXT_HOP address. This is known as a "third party" NEXT_HOP attribute. What I understand from this is, a bgp speaker (M) can only set some policy to change the NH of an update message to one of its interface address provided that the receiving external peer (B) shares a common subnet with that address. I would appreciate if someone can enlighten this with a practical scenario when such a thing can happen. b) What routes should be there in Adj-RIBs-IN of internal peer A. 1. x3 and x2. x3 from C and x2 from B as it is the best route to send to internal peers according to section 9.2.1 of rfc 1771 having larger value of DOP among externally received route. 2. x3 and x1. (If the answer to (a) is NO ). But its nowhere written in rfc 1771 or in draft that an external route for which next hop reachability is not there, should not be sent to internal peers. 3. x3 alone. As it is the route which will be selected after phase 2 to be put in Loc-RIB of B, therefore B should withdraw the route x2 (or x1, whichever it has advertised earlier to A as part of internal update process) as according section 9.2.1 of draft: "When a BGP speaker receives a new route from an external peer, it MUST advertise that route to all other internal peers by means of an UPDATE message if this route will be installed in its Loc-RIB according to the route selection rules in 9.1.2." This means that only those route should be sent to internal peers which *will* be there in Loc-RIB after phase 2. =================================================================== The point of concern is, if the necessary condition for a route to be advertised to internal peers is that it should be present in Loc-RIB, then why rfc and draft both say that internal update can be sent (at the end/as part of) phase 1. It appears that if the above is necessary condition then internal updates should be sent after phase 2 i.e. when Loc-RIB has been modified. Whats the point in first sending the update after phase 1 and then withdrawing it if that route is not there in Loc-RIB. =================================================================== NOTE: where ever I have given reference for draft, I meant Regards, Deepak Srivastava -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DEEPAK SRIVASTAVA ds113@ascend.com Infosys- India Development Team Phone Office: 91-80-8520261 Bangalore -INDIA Extn: 6522 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 12:00:40 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA15544 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.ne.smtp.psi.net (relay1.ne.smtp.psi.net [38.9.153.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15451 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [198.138.94.6] (helo=smtp.txc.com) by relay1.ne.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 14uyzq-0002E8-00 for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 02 May 2001 11:56:58 -0400 Received: from sirius.txc.com by smtp.txc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09559; Wed, 2 May 01 11:48:55 EDT Received: from txc.com by sirius.txc.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA06783; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:58:38 -0400 Message-Id: <3AF02EA4.2372184E@txc.com> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:58:28 -0400 From: srihari varada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: ML-PPP Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msE07C1C36A066C662ED2459DF" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msE07C1C36A066C662ED2459DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: I would like to request for following information: -- pointers to the "Deployment experiences from Network Service Providers" on the ML-PPP -- pointers to the "archived mailing list" on the PPP/ML-PPP I would greately appreciate, if some one could provide with the above. 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References: <0105020937420A.00783@t20> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My extensive research shows there is no IETF standard SNMP MIB for this protocol. I propose that a Working Group for a CPIP transmission MIB should be convened as soon as a second, interoperable implementation has been documented, if not sooner. Roland Hedberg wrote: > The CPIP (carrier pigeon internet protocol) is finally implemented !! > > http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 14:20:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA19231 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 14:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateway1.sema.co.uk (gateway1.sema.co.uk [194.216.60.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA19009 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 14:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alps.ca.semagroup.com ([192.168.13.10]) by gateway1.sema.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20154 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:58:58 +0100 (BST) Received: by ALPS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 2 May 2001 14:06:33 -0400 Message-ID: <81E6C37A5EE1D211B1E300A0C9EBC1D3EC4066@ALPS> From: FOREST Laurent To: "'MLL ietf@ietf.org'" Subject: LDAP implementation of simple relations Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:06:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Hello, I am quite new to the LDAP area and I have the following question. Sorry, it is a bit long, but I need to set the context. I have to design an LDAP dictionary with some simple "N-to-M" relations between entries. An example of this relation is: a subscriber can subscribe to zero, one or more service package(s). Both subscribers and packages are entries in the dictionary. _____________ N M ___________ |Subscriber | <--------------> | Package | ------------- ----------- The question is: what is the best way to implement simple relations like that in LDAP? An obvious solution is to include attributes of type Distinguished Name in the subscriber Object Class: Subscriber 1 address Package 2 DN # this subscriber subscribed to Package 2 ... Subscriber 2 address Package 1 DN # this subscriber subscribed to Package 1 ... Package 1 Package 2 When a subscriber entry is searched, then the LDAP client can search for the Distinguished Name corresponding to the subscriber's packages and get the corresponding package details. However, this increases the number of LDAP requests to be performed each time a susbcriber is queried. I guess the performance impact of these multi-requests operation can be reduced by putting the Package entries in the server memory cache. I also guess the performance impact can be reduced still more by putting the Package entries in the client memory cache. But in this case, how to refresh the client cache when the package entries are modified on the server? Thank you Laurent From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 15:20:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA20677 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from po1.bbn.com ([192.1.50.38]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA20471 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vineyard.net (KALLISTI.BBN.COM [128.89.0.250]) by po1.bbn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05955; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Sender: djw@po1.bbn.com Message-ID: <3AF05C2E.7F705B9C@vineyard.net> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:12:46 -0400 From: David Waitzman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward P Luwish , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: A remarkable achievement ! References: <3AF04807.1155CFA2@qwest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edward P Luwish wrote: > My extensive research shows there is no IETF standard SNMP MIB for this > protocol. I propose that a Working Group for a CPIP transmission MIB > should be convened as soon as a second, interoperable implementation has > been documented, if not sooner. There is a small MIB in the follow on RFC, RFC2549. I was asked a number of times to make a MIB for RFC1149 but MIBs are quickly boring. -david waitzman From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 16:00:16 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA21664 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 16:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov ([136.177.164.192]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA21434 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov (rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov [136.177.164.192]) by rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA12336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 14:44:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200105021944.OAA12336@rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov> Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:44:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Robert G. Ferrell" Reply-To: "Robert G. Ferrell" Subject: Re: A remarkable achievement ! To: ietf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: EJRk9Edjr4QZ/7BGX1tEHg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >> My extensive research shows there is no IETF standard SNMP MIB for this >> protocol. I propose that a Working Group for a CPIP transmission MIB >> should be convened as soon as a second, interoperable implementation has >> been documented, if not sooner. Well, as one of what I suspect is a very small number of formally trained ornithologists in the IETF community, I'd be interested in seeing further work in this area. Balaji Venkat and I submitted a draft entitled "A Method for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Chip-ridden Avian Carriers" (still available at http://rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov/sysadmin/chips_on_avians.txt) back in late 1999, but for some strange reason it never made it to RFC status. ;-) Cheers, RGF Robert G. Ferrell U. S. Dept. of the Interior Robert_G_Ferrell@nbc.gov ======================================== Who goeth without humor goeth unarmed. ======================================== From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 2 17:10:28 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA23611 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.101]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA23477 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from northrelay02.pok.ibm.com (northrelay02.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.22]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA115886 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:03:14 -0400 Received: from d01ml233.pok.ibm.com (d01ml233.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.63]) by northrelay02.pok.ibm.com (8.8.8m3/NCO v4.96) with ESMTP id QAA48180 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 16:59:40 -0400 Importance: Normal Subject: CFP: ACM MobiHoc 2001 - Due date approaching! To: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: From: "Young-bae Ko" Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:04:42 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D01ML233/01/M/IBM(Release 5.0.7 |March 21, 2001) at 05/02/2001 05:04:42 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org CALL FOR PAPERS MobiHoc 2001 ============ The ACM Symposium on Mobile Ad Hoc Networking & Computing October 4-5, Long Beach (Hyatt Regency hotel), California, USA http://www.cs.ucla.edu/mobihoc/ sponsored by ACM SIGMOBILE MobiHoc 2001 will serve as a forum for addressing various issues related to mobile ad hoc networks. Following the success of MobiHoc 2000, MobiHoc 2001 has been expanded to a 2-day symposium, to provide more opportunities for participation by the ad hoc networking community. Technical papers describing original, previously unpublished research, not currently under review by another conference or journal, are solicited. Topics of interest include but are not limited to - * Routing protocols (unicast, multicast, geocast, content-based, etc.) for ad hoc networks * Media access techniques * Transport layer issues for ad hoc networks * Mobile ad hoc computing platforms and testbeds * Applications for ad hoc networks * Low power and energy-efficient designs * Quality-of-service issues * Security and fault-tolerance issues for ad hoc networks * Self-configuration in ad hoc networks * Sensor and data fusion * Ad hoc networking over Bluetooth * Distributed algorithms for ad hoc networks (e.g., leader election, group management, etc.) * Biologically-inspired mechanisms for ad hoc networks Please consult the program co-chairs, M. Scott Corson (corson@flarion.com), and Samir Das (samir.das@uc.edu) if you are uncertain whether your paper falls within the scope of the symposium. --------------------------------------------------------------------- PAPER SUBMISSIONS Authors should prepare a postscript or portable document format (PDF) version of their papers. Papers should not exceed 20 double-spaced pages (including text, figures and references). All papers will be reviewed for technical merit. Accepted papers will be published in the symposium proceedings. We will adopt a double-blind process for paper review, where the identities of the authors are withheld from the reviewers. Authors' names must not appear in the paper or in the postscript or PDF file. Papers should be submitted electronically. Instructions for paper submission are available at http://www.cs.ucla.edu/mobihoc/. Questions about the submission process should be directed to the program co-chairs. Important Dates - Paper Submissions Due: May 15, 2001 - Notification of Acceptance: July 15, 2001 - Camera-ready Version Due: August 1, 2001 Outrageous Opinions Session We solicit short (at most 50 words) submissions for this special session. Selection of short presentations will be based on relevance to the conference and the degree of outrageousness. An outrageous prize will be awarded to the winner of the most shocking presentation. The deadline for this special session will be the conference date. Please e-mail your submissions to the session chair Zygmunt Haas (haas@ece.cornell.edu). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ORGANIZING COMMITTEE * General Chair: Nitin H. Vaidya (Texas A&M University) * Technical Program Co-Chairs: M. Scott Corson (Flarion Technologies) Samir R. Das (University of Cincinnati) * European Liaison: Jean-Pierre Hubaux (Swiss Federal Inst. of Tech.) * Local Arrangements Chair: Srikanth Krishnamurthy (UC-Riverside) * Finance Co-Chairs: Stefano Basagni (UT-Dallas) Violet R. Syrotiuk (UT-Dallas) * Publicity Co-Chairs: Young-Bae Ko (IBM T.J. Watson Research) Songwu Lu (UC-Los Angeles) * Publication Chair: Sung-Ju Lee (Hewlett-Packard Labs) * Registration Chair: John Heidemann (ISI-USC) Katia Obraczka (ISI-USC) * Outrageous Session Chair: Zygmunt Haas (Cornell University) * Steering Committee: Andrew Campbell (Columbia University) J.J. Garcia-Luna-Aceves (UC-Santa Cruz) Mario Gerla (UC-Los Angeles) Joseph P. Macker (NRL) Charles E. Perkins (Nokia Research) Ram Ramanathan (BBN Tech.) Martha Steenstrup (Stow Research) C-K. Toh (Georgia Tech.) Nitin H. Vaidya (Texas A&M University) * Technical Program Committee: Dennis Baker (NRL) Pravin Bhagwat (ReefEdge, Inc.) Andrew Campbell (Columbia University) Anthony Ephremides (University of Maryland) J.J. Garcia-Luna-Aceves (UC-Santa Cruz) Ramesh Govindan (USC/ISI) Phillippe Jacquet (INRIA) David B. Johnson (Rice University) Tony Larsson (Ericsson Research) Joe Macker (NRL) David Maltz (AON Networks) Gyorgy Miklos (Ericsson Research) Richard Ogier (SRI) Vincent Park (NRL) Charles E. Perkins (Nokia Research) Amir Qayyum (INRIA) Ram Ramanathan (BBN Tech.) Andras Racz (Ericsson Research) Jason Redi (BBN Tech.) Elizabeth Royer (UC-Santa Barbara) Martha Steenstrup (Stow Research) Leandros Tassiulas (University of Maryland) Fred Templin (SRI) ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 3 19:40:46 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA15045 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from climbingnews ([129.210.47.32]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA14976 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105032336.TAA14976@ietf.org> Reply-To: "Climbing News Invitation" From: "Climbing News Invitation" To: "" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Subject: Do you enjoy climbing, mountaineering, or the great outdoors? Sender: "Climbing News Invitation" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:41:48 -0700 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org CLIMBING NEWS INVITATION ------------------------ This email is simply an invitation to join the Climbing News Mail List. This is only an invitation, you have NOT been subscribed to our list! You must do that yourself by clicking below... WHAT IS THE CLIMBING NEWS MAIL LIST? ------------------------------------ We are a grassroots, nonprofit, announcement-style mailing list with over 5,000 subscribers, including many accomplished climbers from around the world. We have been running this list for years and make no money from it whatsoever, we run it simply because we love to climb and contribute to the online climbing community. We hope you will join and invite your friends to subscribe to our humble list. Thanks... WHY SUBSCRIBE TO OUR LIST? -------------------------- * Get free climbing news delivered via email * Receive no more than one email per week * We are nonprofit & have no ads in our posts * Join a global network of thousands of climbers * Your email address will always remain private * You can unsubscribe at any time Please join our list by subscribing below: http://climbnews.listbot.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 3 22:10:39 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA18032 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA17974 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010504020142.NHQQ14836.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:01:42 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3AF20E1E.3B9EACD1@ureach.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:04:14 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf Subject: A tangent Re: Some data Re: Again: Number of Firewall/NAT Users References: <6696.983952888@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i know this thread died a few moons ago, and wont help anyone guess the height limit of warships under bridges, but in case anyone's interested in a rough guess of where people play net games from, along with a slighly revised estimate of NAT usage, i've crunched some numbers and placed results at: http://members.home.net/garmitage/things/quake3-where-050201.html cheers, gja Jon Crowcroft wrote: > > In message , Kyle Lussier typ > ed: > > >>> > "is anyone aware of any estimations of fraction of Internet users > >>> > who are behind firewalls and NATs?" > > >>How about for business users? If the assumption can be made > >>that most Q3 players are home based (which would probably > >>have a lower incidence of NATs) ~20% sounds high. Of > >>course that could be because of sevice providers. > > according to some measurements, most game players are at WORK. > + > in some parts of the world, most HOME users aere behind NATs > > >>But does anyone have a better idea for business users? > > cheers > > jon -- ____________________________________________________________________ Grenville Armitage http://members.home.net/garmitage/ From owner-ietf-outbound Sat May 5 03:11:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA11622 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sat, 5 May 2001 03:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1-132.mnot.net ([64.170.196.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA11581 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 03:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by 1-132.mnot.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 8C58F275C; Sat, 5 May 2001 00:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:03:05 -0700 From: Mark Nottingham To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Message-ID: <20010505000304.A1525@akamai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org The W3C's XML Protocol WG [1], which is chartered with developing XML-based messaging based on SOAP [2], has been debating the merits of the SOAPAction header in SOAP's HTTP binding. I've taken it upon myself (with some misgivings ;) to solicit comments on the designs being discussed. Briefly, SOAPAction is intended to identify a service being accessed, independently from its URL. For example, if you're accessing a StockQuote service, you might put a URI which identifies this type of service in the SOAPAction header. The primary motivation of this is to allow firewall and filtering proxies to identify SOAP messages in HTTP and act appropriately. Some implementations and/or applications of SOAP also use SOAPAction for dispatch, but that's out of scope for this discussion. The three major designs being proposed are: - allow any arbitrary URI to be placed in the SOAPAction header [3] - force the content of the SOAPAction header to be the same as the top-level XML namespace in the message body, thereby identifying what kind of message it is (making this information available in the header removes the requirement that the intermediary parse the XML) [4] - removing SOAPAction and requiring that only one service be associated with any particular URI [5] I feel that if we're going to design something to satisfy an external requirement ("make SOAP play nice with firewalls, so they don't just block all SOAP messages"), we should consult with the affected communities. So, I would very much appreciate: - constructive comments as to the designs - pointers to mailing lists, etc. of communities that would be interested in these issues (firewall admins, etc.) - discussion of whether any such hints will be helpful for the target audience - pointers to filtering/access control techniques already used, with particular emphasis on whether or not any current implementations can identify HTTP headers and act upon them. Kind regards, [1] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/ [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Apr/0142.html [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001May/0026.html [5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001May/0055.html -- Mark Nottingham, Research Scientist Akamai Technologies (San Mateo, CA USA) From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 6 03:12:50 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA00899 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 03:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from breakaway.Stanford.EDU ([171.64.20.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA00598 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 03:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (hodges@localhost) by breakaway.Stanford.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21364; Sun, 6 May 2001 00:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105060707.AAA21364@breakaway.Stanford.EDU> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. To: Mark Nottingham cc: ietf@ietf.org In-reply-to: Mark Nottingham 's message of Sat, 05 May 2001 00:03:05 -0700 From: Jeff.Hodges@kingsmountain.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 00:07:23 -0700 Sender: hodges@breakaway.Stanford.EDU X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Two firewall community lists you might try are.. firewall-wizards@nfr.com firewalls@Lists.GNAC.NET There was a short thread on the latter list (around the first of this year) along similar lines to your query. The thread was entitled.. "new" protocols vs. firewalls & firewall adminis{trators|tration} ? http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200012/msg00786.html http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200012/msg00789.html http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200012/msg00792.html http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00071.html http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00080.html http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00072.html http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00075.html JeffH From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 6 15:31:00 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA12976 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA12852 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18003; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105061912.PAA18003@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Mark Nottingham cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 May 2001 00:03:05 PDT." <20010505000304.A1525@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 15:12:08 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org The last thing that HTTP needs is yet another tag with which to de-multiplex incoming traffic. Adding application-specific request or response headers just increases the problems that already exist due to a lack of clean layering in HTTP. So I'd strongly recommend against defining any new SOAP-specific headers. As for demultiplexing, my recommendation would be to do whatever SOAP-specific demultiplexing either entirely within the URL of the request, or entirely within the HTTP payload. (and SOAP should choose one of these, not make it a per-service option). If the latter is chosen, the separation between the SOAP payload and the tag used for demultiplexing could be done either using XML framing or with MIME multipart/something. This ensures the maximum compatibility with existing servers, server-side APIs, proxies, and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction header in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the SOAPAction header should be ignored). The name of the SOAP service should *not* be inferred from the XML namespace used to describe the request. This would make it impossible to have multiple services that accept identically formatted requests. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 6 15:40:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA13112 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1-132.mnot.net ([64.170.196.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA13008 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by 1-132.mnot.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id C7E67275D; Sun, 6 May 2001 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 12:32:15 -0700 From: Mark Nottingham To: Jeff.Hodges@kingsmountain.com Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Message-ID: <20010506123215.E1081@akamai.com> References: <200105060707.AAA21364@breakaway.Stanford.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105060707.AAA21364@breakaway.Stanford.EDU>; from Jeff.Hodges@kingsmountain.com on Sun, May 06, 2001 at 12:07:23AM -0700 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Jeff and Kieth, Thanks for the comments; any others would be much appreciated. I'd note that there is also discussion of an e-mail (SMTP, if you like) binding of SOAP as well, in addition to HTTP. Same issues (though it doesn't have a SOAPAction-type mechanism yet AFAIK.) On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 12:07:23AM -0700, Jeff.Hodges@kingsmountain.com wrote: > Two firewall community lists you might try are.. > > firewall-wizards@nfr.com > > firewalls@Lists.GNAC.NET > > > There was a short thread on the latter list (around the first of this year) > along similar lines to your query. The thread was entitled.. > > "new" protocols vs. firewalls & firewall adminis{trators|tration} ? > > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200012/msg00786.html > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200012/msg00789.html > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200012/msg00792.html > > > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00071.html > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00080.html > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00072.html > http://lists.gnac.net/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.200101/msg00075.html > > > JeffH > > -- Mark Nottingham, Research Scientist Akamai Technologies (San Mateo, CA USA) From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 6 16:00:09 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA13316 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 16:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1-132.mnot.net ([64.170.196.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA13289 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 15:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by 1-132.mnot.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id E734A275D; Sun, 6 May 2001 12:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 12:59:36 -0700 From: Mark Nottingham To: Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Message-ID: <20010506125936.H1081@akamai.com> References: <20010505000304.A1525@akamai.com> <200105061912.PAA18003@astro.cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105061912.PAA18003@astro.cs.utk.edu>; from moore@cs.utk.edu on Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know > specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP > request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction header > in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the SOAPAction > header should be ignored). Yep; seems to me that Content-Type ss more appropriate for dispatch, if doing it in a header is desireable. > The name of the SOAP service should *not* be inferred from the XML > namespace used to describe the request. This would make it impossible > to have multiple services that accept identically formatted requests. The idea is that the identity (i.e., "this is a stockquote service") is implied by the namespace, and therefore is useful for firewall admins, etc., so they can work at the granularity of a service type. The location of the service is still carried in the HTTP request-line. SOAPAction isn't intended to uniquely name services. -- Mark Nottingham, Research Scientist Akamai Technologies (San Mateo, CA USA) From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 6 17:51:02 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA14019 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA13993 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18816; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105062146.RAA18816@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Mark Nottingham cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2001 12:59:36 PDT." <20010506125936.H1081@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:46:16 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know > > specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP > > request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction header > > in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the SOAPAction > > header should be ignored). > > Yep; seems to me that Content-Type ss more appropriate for dispatch, > if doing it in a header is desireable. ugh. only if you must. the URL is *far* better for this purpose. > > The name of the SOAP service should *not* be inferred from the XML > > namespace used to describe the request. This would make it impossible > > to have multiple services that accept identically formatted requests. > > The idea is that the identity (i.e., "this is a stockquote service") > is implied by the namespace, and therefore is useful for firewall > admins, etc., so they can work at the granularity of a service type. > The location of the service is still carried in the HTTP > request-line. SOAPAction isn't intended to uniquely name services. I can see why you might want firewalls to be able to filter certain kinds of data - having everything tagged in XML might allow firewalls to prevent inadvertent leakage of data of types known to be 'sensitive' via any of several protocols. But I don't think you really want to conflate the name of the data structure with the name of the service, and probably not even with the 'type' of the service. The type of the service and the type of data presented to the service should be kept separately. Keith p.s. One thing that really concerns me about the SOAP approach is what I call firewall escalation - the chief justification for using HTTP as a substrate for SOAP is to allow it to operate through existing firewalls, but one of the consequences of SOAP is likely to be that firewalls become more complex (and more error-prone) due to a need to dig deeper into the HTTP payload. This degrade service for all uses of HTTP. So I think SOAP should be designed, to the extent possible, to avoid encouraging such escalation. And if it ends up requiring changes to HTTP after all, and/or changes to existing firewalls, then it should be declared to be a different protocol, with a different default port, with a different URI prefix. That way, the firewall measures that get put in place for SOAP don't end up affecting use of ordinary HTTP. From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 00:10:43 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA19026 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 00:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (root@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu [128.173.14.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA18957 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 00:01:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (valdis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f47418L20704; Mon, 7 May 2001 00:01:08 -0400 Message-Id: <200105070401.f47418L20704@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> To: Mark Nottingham cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2001 12:59:36 PDT." <20010506125936.H1081@akamai.com> X-URL: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ X-Face-Viewer: See ftp://cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/index.html to decode picture X-Face: 34C9$Ewd2zeX+\!i1BA\j{ex+$/V'JBG#;3_noWWYPa"|,I#`R"{n@w>#:{)FXyiAS7(8t( ^*w5O*!8O9YTe[r{e%7(yVRb|qxsRYw`7J!`AM}m_SHaj}f8eb@d^L>BrX7iO[ <200105061912.PAA18003@astro.cs.utk.edu> <20010506125936.H1081@akamai.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 00:01:07 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Sun, 06 May 2001 12:59:36 PDT, Mark Nottingham said: > The idea is that the identity (i.e., "this is a stockquote service") > is implied by the namespace, and therefore is useful for firewall > admins, etc., so they can work at the granularity of a service type. > The location of the service is still carried in the HTTP > request-line. SOAPAction isn't intended to uniquely name services. OK.. I've read section 6 of http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP several times, and I'm frankly dissapointed. Unless you find a way to codify that the site has to tell the truth in the SOAPAction, it's a non-starter. Consider that the user behind a firewall could, in conjunction with a site that supported it, just tack onto the end of the URL a &callit=whateverSoap and the web site could just label it with SOAPAction=whateverSoap will get through the firewall. So what is this actually fixing? The guy *inside* the firewall presumably knows what will be allowed to pass, and can tell the guy outside what to call it. This sounds like a scene from a James Bond movie - if he knows that the roadblock up ahead is looking for a Jaguar with Swiss plates, he hits a button and he's now driving a Jaguar with French plates. This leaves us with 2 choices: 1) Require the SOAPAction to match the XML. Since the firewall has to poke around the XML then, it renders SOAPAction redundant and useless. It's also a protocol layering violation egregeous enough to cause retching. 2) Accept that it's yet another broken protocol that confuses authentication with authorization (in the worst way - it trusts the value it's given). I *have* to point out that 4 of the 8 authors work for a company which has historically had problems in understanding that an attacker might <*gasp*> put incorrect data into a header field.... Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 01:40:27 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA23288 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 01:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1-132.mnot.net ([64.170.196.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA22728 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 01:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by 1-132.mnot.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 07A7C275D; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:34:17 -0700 From: Mark Nottingham To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Message-ID: <20010506223413.A1085@akamai.com> References: <20010505000304.A1525@akamai.com> <200105061912.PAA18003@astro.cs.utk.edu> <20010506125936.H1081@akamai.com> <200105070401.f47418L20704@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105070401.f47418L20704@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu>; from Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu on Mon, May 07, 2001 at 12:01:07AM -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 12:01:07AM -0400, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote: > > OK.. I've read section 6 of http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP several times, > and I'm frankly dissapointed. > > Unless you find a way to codify that the site has to tell the > truth in the SOAPAction, it's a non-starter. Consider that > the user behind a firewall could, in conjunction with a site > that supported it, just tack onto the end of the URL a > > &callit=whateverSoap > > and the web site could just label it with SOAPAction=whateverSoap > will get through the firewall. I don't read SOAPAction as trying to solve world hunger; it merely provides information about the payload that may be useful in identifying it. Of course someone can circumvent this, but that's a problem that doesn't originate with SOAP, but the underlying transfer protocol (HTTP in this case). I.e., if two parties can coordinate, and wish to get through a firewall which allows HTTP to pass, they have a multitude of options. SOAP is one of them, but they could build their own as well. All that SOAPAction does is allow spec-abiding SOAP messages to be identified. My original question was whether this behaviour was useful; although firewalls can (and some undoubtably will) break open the XML to try and figure out what's inside, SOAPAction gives those who merely wish to have some reasonable control over what SOAP messages pass into and out of their network. I'll take it to the firewall lists pointed out, thanks. -- Mark Nottingham, Research Scientist Akamai Technologies (San Mateo, CA USA) From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 07:50:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id HAA07178 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 07:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from internet-gateway.zurich.ibm.com ([195.212.119.253]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA06806 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 07:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from collon.zurich.ibm.com (collon.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.2.193]) by internet-gateway.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA52166; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:35:31 +0200 Received: from dhcp22-166.zurich.ibm.com by collon.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29076 from ; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <3AF687C3.8D5E1414@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 06:32:19 -0500 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. References: <200105060707.AAA21364@breakaway.Stanford.EDU> <20010506123215.E1081@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Jeff and Kieth, > > Thanks for the comments; any others would be much appreciated. I'd > note that there is also discussion of an e-mail (SMTP, if you like) > binding of SOAP as well, in addition to HTTP. Same issues (though it > doesn't have a SOAPAction-type mechanism yet AFAIK.) Not mention a BEEP binding, or so I have heard. Brian From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 08:30:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA08650 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 08:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com ([171.71.163.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA08479 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 08:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-av-3.cisco.com (sj-msg-av-3.cisco.com [171.69.2.19]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f47COpQ03222; Mon, 7 May 2001 05:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailman.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sj-msg-av-3.cisco.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f47COji06553; Mon, 7 May 2001 05:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex (rtp-vpn-69.cisco.com [10.82.192.69]) by mailman.cisco.com (8.9.3/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id FAA02100; Mon, 7 May 2001 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01d301c0d6f0$c118d8a0$d45904d1@cisco.com> From: "Melinda Shore" To: "Keith Moore" , "Mark Nottingham" Cc: References: <200105062146.RAA18816@astro.cs.utk.edu> Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:25:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > p.s. One thing that really concerns me about the SOAP approach is what I > call firewall escalation - the chief justification for using HTTP as a > substrate for SOAP is to allow it to operate through existing firewalls, > but one of the consequences of SOAP is likely to be that firewalls become > more complex (and more error-prone) due to a need to dig deeper into the > HTTP payload. This degrade service for all uses of HTTP. Note, as well, that any assumption that you can get through a firewall by inspecting content implies that the firewall can read that content - in a very real sense the use of stateful inspection firewalling works against securing applications. Melinda From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 10:31:43 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA13013 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 10:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (root@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu [128.173.14.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA12913 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 10:25:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (valdis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f47EPJL23544; Mon, 7 May 2001 10:25:19 -0400 Message-Id: <200105071425.f47EPJL23544@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/19/2001 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Nottingham Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 May 2001 22:34:17 PDT." <20010506223413.A1085@akamai.com> X-Url: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ X-Face-Viewer: See ftp://cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/index.html to decode picture X-Face: 34C9$Ewd2zeX+\!i1BA\j{ex+$/V'JBG#;3_noWWYPa"|,I#`R"{n@w>#:{)FXyiAS7(8t( ^*w5O*!8O9YTe[r{e%7(yVRb|qxsRYw`7J!`AM}m_SHaj}f8eb@d^L>BrX7iO[ <200105061912.PAA18003@astro.cs.utk.edu> <20010506125936.H1081@akamai.com> <200105070401.f47418L20704@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> <20010506223413.A1085@akamai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1368726006P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:25:19 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --==_Exmh_-1368726006P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, 06 May 2001 22:34:17 PDT, Mark Nottingham said: > My original question was whether this behaviour was useful; although I don't think it is.. > firewalls can (and some undoubtably will) break open the XML to try > and figure out what's inside, SOAPAction gives those who merely wish > to have some reasonable control over what SOAP messages pass into and > out of their network. No, it doesn't provide reasonable control. Since the whole *point* of a firewall is to stop malicious packets, and since a packet can simply label itself as "non-malicious", it leaks too much. We *already* have too many networks out there run by people who think that because they've installed a firewall, they're secure. I'm going to have to protest tooth-and-nail any proposal that will give even a HINT to "the unwashed masses" that they can say "We installed a firewall that implements SOAP, we dont have to worry about bad SOAP packets". I have *NO* objections to implementing SOAPAction so that software can use it as a "hint" for possible fast-pathing or special handling of some sort (for instance, to flag it as SOAP-compliant so a SOAP handler can be loaded, or to flag it as "priority" for expedited handling, or for purposes similar to 'content-type:'. If somebody comes across a good way to use SOAPAction: headers to make the Akamai node across the hall from me do even more cool caching things, I'll encourage that ;) I only object to the implication that it's reasonable to use it for yes/no decisions in a firewall or other security context. -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech --==_Exmh_-1368726006P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Exmh version 2.2 06/16/2000 iQA/AwUBOvawTnAt5Vm009ewEQLn2gCfc04FsLwR5XMWP9ItfUFrZHI6Cc0An1hd ezY5S5Svv7DZDtmvcFmjQltI =tbXo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1368726006P-- From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 19:03:56 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA23900 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 19:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail5.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.121]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA23769 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.7.67 by mail5.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 07 May 2001 14:50:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.75]) by inet-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Mon, 7 May 2001 14:50:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:50:37 -0700 Message-ID: <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0297CBE9@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Thread-Index: AcDXP79rFRIa+vPJQ7qyPI0a5yzyPg== From: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" To: , "Mark Nottingham" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2001 21:50:38.0044 (UTC) FILETIME=[C09781C0:01C0D73F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id SAA23770 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type that is part of a stock quote service". The difference is that one is a destination which is carried in HTTP by the request-URI but the other is a hint about what is in the message. This is why SOAPAction is a separate parameter. Henrik >> On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >> > and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know >> > specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP >> > request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction >> > header in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the >> > SOAPAction header should be ignored). >> >> Yep; seems to me that Content-Type ss more appropriate for dispatch, >> if doing it in a header is desireable. > >ugh. only if you must. the URL is *far* better for this purpose. From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 20:20:20 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id UAA25054 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 20:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA25031 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 20:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24745; Mon, 7 May 2001 20:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105080016.UAA24745@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 May 2001 14:50:37 PDT." <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0297CBE9@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:16:41 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote > service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type that > is part of a stock quote service". okay, fine. but why bother exposing this in the request header at all? Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 20:50:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id UAA25381 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 20:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yarilo.pluris.com ([208.227.9.200]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA25349 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 20:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.16.55.135] ([172.16.55.135]) by yarilo.pluris.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA22594; Mon, 7 May 2001 17:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: akyol@avalon Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0297CBE9@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsof t.com> References: <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0297CBE9@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsof t.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:46:38 -0700 To: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" From: Bora Akyol Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Why would a firewall or a firewall admin trust the packet to indicate what it really is? Bora At 2:50 PM -0700 5/7/01, Henrik Frystyk Nielsen wrote: >The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote >service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type that >is part of a stock quote service". > >The difference is that one is a destination which is carried in HTTP by >the request-URI but the other is a hint about what is in the message. >This is why SOAPAction is a separate parameter. > >Henrik > >>> On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >>> > and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know >>> > specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP >>> > request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction >>> > header in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the > >>> > SOAPAction header should be ignored). >>> >>> Yep; seems to me that Content-Type ss more appropriate for dispatch, >>> if doing it in a header is desireable. > > > >ugh. only if you must. the URL is *far* better for this purpose. From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 21:10:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA25753 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.nexsi.com ([63.121.79.244]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA25543 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jimsibmt20 (dynam43.sw.nexsi.com [172.17.14.43]) by mail.nexsi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA18692; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:06:48 -0700 From: "James Binder" To: "Bora Akyol" , "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" Cc: Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:00:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2465.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only if the application (e.g., protocol) is signed and cross-certified by a trusted CA could I see this occurring. /jsb -----Original Message----- From: Bora Akyol [mailto:akyol@PLURIS.COM] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:47 PM To: Henrik Frystyk Nielsen Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Why would a firewall or a firewall admin trust the packet to indicate what it really is? Bora At 2:50 PM -0700 5/7/01, Henrik Frystyk Nielsen wrote: >The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote >service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type that >is part of a stock quote service". > >The difference is that one is a destination which is carried in HTTP by >the request-URI but the other is a hint about what is in the message. >This is why SOAPAction is a separate parameter. > >Henrik > >>> On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >>> > and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know >>> > specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP >>> > request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction >>> > header in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the > >>> > SOAPAction header should be ignored). >>> >>> Yep; seems to me that Content-Type ss more appropriate for dispatch, >>> if doing it in a header is desireable. > > > >ugh. only if you must. the URL is *far* better for this purpose. From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 21:20:16 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA25907 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.243]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA25582 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo (user-2injouh.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.227.209]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21646; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:03:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dick Brooks" To: "Keith Moore" , "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" Cc: "Mark Nottingham" , , Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:13:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200105080016.UAA24745@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, SOAP messages can take many forms. SOAPAction provides the information needed by a generic message broker to dispatch a message to the appropriate handler, without requiring the message broker to have intimate knowledge of each SOAP message structure. The SOAPAction can serve as a "key" into a table of message processors. IMO, SOAPAction is conceptually similar to the MIME Content-type. If a generic message broker couldn't determine the message type from a request header it require intimate knowledge of each message structure in order to perform dispatch functions. It's more efficient and easier to write a message broker that operates off the MIME/HTTP headers for dispatching purposes. Dick Brooks (ebXML liaison) http://www.8760.com/ -----Original Message----- From: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org [mailto:xml-dist-app-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Keith Moore Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 7:17 PM To: Henrik Frystyk Nielsen Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; Mark Nottingham; ietf@ietf.org; xml-dist-app@w3.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. > The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote > service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type that > is part of a stock quote service". okay, fine. but why bother exposing this in the request header at all? Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 22:10:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA27383 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA27352 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.9.108 by mail2.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 07 May 2001 17:44:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.75]) by inet-imc-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Mon, 7 May 2001 17:43:33 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:43:30 -0700 Message-ID: <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0297CBED@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Thread-Index: AcDXVDcjHB6nAx9PQgi0dUT344lIIAAAf9sg From: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "Mark Nottingham" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 May 2001 00:43:33.0236 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8B02B40:01C0D757] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id WAA27353 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote >> service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type >> that is part of a stock quote service". > >okay, fine. but why bother exposing this in the request header at all? Because it can be hard to deduce from the message - especially as messages may be composed of many pieces from other places using SOAP's modular extensibility mechanism (headers). In a sense this is similar to that a media type can be hard to guess based on the entity alone. Henrik From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 22:20:09 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA27554 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from catbert.rellim.com (root@[204.17.205.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA27530 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (gem@localhost) by catbert.rellim.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f482IV101226; Mon, 7 May 2001 19:18:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Gary E. Miller" To: James Binder cc: Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Yo James! On Mon, 7 May 2001, James Binder wrote: > Only if the application (e.g., protocol) is signed and cross-certified by a > trusted CA could I see this occurring. Yeah, like a Microsoft certificate from Verisign. NOT! RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Ave, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 > Why would a firewall or a firewall admin trust the packet to indicate > what it really is? From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 7 22:50:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA28925 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.nexsi.com ([63.121.79.244]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA28902 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jimsibmt20 (dynam43.sw.nexsi.com [172.17.14.43]) by mail.nexsi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19605; Mon, 7 May 2001 19:54:16 -0700 From: "James Binder" To: "Gary E. Miller" Cc: Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:48:12 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2465.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, could be a BEA, Computer Assoc., IBM; pick your poison! /jsb -----Original Message----- From: Gary E. Miller [mailto:gem@rellim.com] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 7:19 PM To: James Binder Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Yo James! On Mon, 7 May 2001, James Binder wrote: > Only if the application (e.g., protocol) is signed and cross-certified by a > trusted CA could I see this occurring. Yeah, like a Microsoft certificate from Verisign. NOT! RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Ave, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 > Why would a firewall or a firewall admin trust the packet to indicate > what it really is? From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 00:50:26 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA01051 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 00:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (root@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu [128.173.14.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA01023 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 00:49:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (valdis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f484mvJ10354; Tue, 8 May 2001 00:48:57 -0400 Message-Id: <200105080448.f484mvJ10354@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> To: James Binder cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 May 2001 19:48:12 PDT." X-URL: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ X-Face-Viewer: See ftp://cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/index.html to decode picture X-Face: 34C9$Ewd2zeX+\!i1BA\j{ex+$/V'JBG#;3_noWWYPa"|,I#`R"{n@w>#:{)FXyiAS7(8t( ^*w5O*!8O9YTe[r{e%7(yVRb|qxsRYw`7J!`AM}m_SHaj}f8eb@d^L>BrX7iO[ Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 00:48:57 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Mon, 07 May 2001 19:48:12 PDT, James Binder said: > Hey, could be a BEA, Computer Assoc., IBM; pick your poison! >> Gary Miller said: >> Yeah, like a Microsoft certificate from Verisign. NOT! The crucial difference here is that I'm not aware of BEA, CA, or IBM being quite so publicly caught telling Verisign "yes, that's a valid key request" and then having to ship patches to work around the problems with CRL's. I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the issues with trying to have a firewall filter SOAPAction's if the connection is via https:// rather than http://.... Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 01:30:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA03911 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com ([192.188.61.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA02784 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f485KkK06179 for ietf@ietf.org env-from ; Mon, 7 May 2001 23:20:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 23:20:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200105080520.f485KkK06179@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >>> Only if the application (e.g., protocol) is signed and cross-certified by a >> trusted CA could I see this occurring. >> >> Yeah, like a Microsoft certificate from Verisign. NOT! > Hey, could be a BEA, Computer Assoc., IBM; pick your poison! Some of us choose not to drink whatever poison causes people to say that authentication is the same as authorization or that any authentication you are likely to be able to buy for the $250/year that Verisign/Thwate apparently found to be the price point will be better than the FAX's of a local DBA license that Verisign/Thwate accepts as incontrovertible. (With or without working CRL's, that foolishness will continue to be a joke waiting for more punch lines.) What does SOAP have to do with the IETF? The recent WWW references seem to point outside the IETF. Judging from the breathless article in a hardware trade rag that arrived with this afternoon's post, SOAP is the latest in the lineage of embraces and extensions that includes VMRL, ActiveX, and WAP. This trade article explained it as binary mode FTP for embedded applications (but of course did not mention FTP). If it gets enough marketing muscle and is not quite as silly as VRML and WAP, then it might survive. But can the IETF affect it? If not (and the signs are clear), then why worry about it? It's fun to joke about people who think that bits that proclaim their own good intentions are necessarily from the good guys and must be allowed free reign, but it's probably not something we should be doing in public. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 01:40:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA05023 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA03146 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA26229; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105080524.BAA26229@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Dick Brooks" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 May 2001 20:13:14 CDT." Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:24:09 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > SOAP messages can take many forms. SOAPAction provides the information > needed by a generic message broker to dispatch a message to the appropriate > handler, without requiring the message broker to have intimate knowledge of > each SOAP message structure. The SOAPAction can serve as a "key" into a > table of message processors. IMO, SOAPAction is conceptually similar to the > MIME Content-type. HTTP servers do not dispatch on content-type. either you're dispatching on the URI or you're breaking compatibility with HTTP. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 01:50:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA06173 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA04062 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA26294; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105080531.BAA26294@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 May 2001 17:43:30 PDT." <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0297CBED@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:31:19 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > >> The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote > >> service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type > >> that is part of a stock quote service". > > > >okay, fine. but why bother exposing this in the request header at all? > > Because it can be hard to deduce from the message - especially as > messages may be composed of many pieces from other places using SOAP's > modular extensibility mechanism (headers). In a sense this is similar to > that a media type can be hard to guess based on the entity alone. then add that to the SOAP payload that gets passed in the HTTP entity body. don't penalize HTTP for SOAP's design deficiencies. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 03:00:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA16470 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 03:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA16393 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 02:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA27102; Tue, 8 May 2001 02:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105080652.CAA27102@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Vernon Schryver cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 May 2001 23:20:46 MDT." <200105080520.f485KkK06179@calcite.rhyolite.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 02:52:40 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > What does SOAP have to do with the IETF? apparently they want to make incompatible changes to HTTP, and IETF has change control over that protocol. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 05:03:35 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA17504 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webwasher.com ([195.162.240.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA17292 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 04:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.12] ([192.168.0.12]) by mail.webwasher.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Tue, 8 May 2001 10:35:10 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: martin.stecher@mail.webwasher.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:37:44 +0200 To: ietf-openproxy@IMC.ORG From: Martin Stecher Subject: OPES Interium group Meeting Cc: partners@i-cap.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1222811431==_============" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 May 2001 08:35:10.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB5E0AC0:01C0D799] X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --============_-1222811431==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" We will have an Interim Open Pluggable Edge Services (OPES) group meeting. The focus of this meeting is to discuss Callout Protocols - iCAP and other WEB callout service protocols - requirements for other content, e.g. streaming Feedback on existing iCAP document Policy Requirements Other Architecture Issues We will put a detailed agenda next month on the web site (www.ietf-opes.org) When: Date June 7th Registration: To attend send me an email with 1. Name 2. Company 3. email 4. arrival date/departure date We may organize a informal dinner for Wednesday so let me know if you are interested. Where: Intel Corporation 3600 Julliette Lane Santa Clara, CA 95054 Room: SC12-338 Main Desk Phone : 408-765-8080 Room phone: 408-765-1305 For Hotel we have a block of rooms at Biltmore Hotel at $159.00 /nite To make a reservation at that rate call Intel Travel Service at 1-800-469-5516 and say its for the "Intel program #11538." Any reservation at this rate must be made by May 19th. A detailed registration form is attached for your convenience (if you wish to use it). Hotel: Biltmore 2151 Laurelwood Rd Santa Clara, CA 95054 (408) 988-8411 This hotel is across the street from Intel. Directions Take 101 South from SFO or North from SJC Montague expressway exit. Hotel is on the left, Intel is on the right Michael W. 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text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" -- _______________________________________________________________________ Martin Stecher Tel. : + 49 / 52 51 / 5 00 54 - 25 webwasher.com AG Fax : + 49 / 52 51 / 5 00 54 - 11 Email : martin.stecher@webwasher.com Vattmannstrasse 3 D-33100 Paderborn Germany Keep Your Web Clean http://www.webwasher.com _______________________________________________________________________ --============_-1222811431==_============-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 05:05:57 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA17569 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webwasher.com ([195.162.240.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA17292 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 04:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.12] ([192.168.0.12]) by mail.webwasher.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Tue, 8 May 2001 10:35:10 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: martin.stecher@mail.webwasher.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:37:44 +0200 To: ietf-openproxy@IMC.ORG From: Martin Stecher Subject: OPES Interium group Meeting Cc: partners@i-cap.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1222811431==_============" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 May 2001 08:35:10.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB5E0AC0:01C0D799] X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --============_-1222811431==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" We will have an Interim Open Pluggable Edge Services (OPES) group meeting. The focus of this meeting is to discuss Callout Protocols - iCAP and other WEB callout service protocols - requirements for other content, e.g. streaming Feedback on existing iCAP document Policy Requirements Other Architecture Issues We will put a detailed agenda next month on the web site (www.ietf-opes.org) When: Date June 7th Registration: To attend send me an email with 1. Name 2. Company 3. email 4. arrival date/departure date We may organize a informal dinner for Wednesday so let me know if you are interested. Where: Intel Corporation 3600 Julliette Lane Santa Clara, CA 95054 Room: SC12-338 Main Desk Phone : 408-765-8080 Room phone: 408-765-1305 For Hotel we have a block of rooms at Biltmore Hotel at $159.00 /nite To make a reservation at that rate call Intel Travel Service at 1-800-469-5516 and say its for the "Intel program #11538." Any reservation at this rate must be made by May 19th. A detailed registration form is attached for your convenience (if you wish to use it). Hotel: Biltmore 2151 Laurelwood Rd Santa Clara, CA 95054 (408) 988-8411 This hotel is across the street from Intel. Directions Take 101 South from SFO or North from SJC Montague expressway exit. Hotel is on the left, Intel is on the right Michael W. Condry Director, Network Edge Technology --============_-1222811431==_============ Content-Id: Content-Type: application/msword; name="11538_OPES_(BM_SJC).doc" ; x-mac-type="5744424E" ; x-mac-creator="4D535744" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="11538_OPES_(BM_SJC).doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAPAAA AAAAAAAAEAAAPgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAADsAAAD///////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////8BAP7/AwoAAP////8GCQIAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGGAAAAE1pY3Jvc29mdCBXb3JkIERvY3VtZW50AAoAAABNU1dvcmREb2MAEAAAAFdv cmQuRG9jdW1lbnQuOAD0ObJxAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --============_-1222811431==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" -- _______________________________________________________________________ Martin Stecher Tel. : + 49 / 52 51 / 5 00 54 - 25 webwasher.com AG Fax : + 49 / 52 51 / 5 00 54 - 11 Email : martin.stecher@webwasher.com Vattmannstrasse 3 D-33100 Paderborn Germany Keep Your Web Clean http://www.webwasher.com _______________________________________________________________________ --============_-1222811431==_============-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 08:32:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA19848 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.243]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA19681 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo (user-33qt1nf.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.134.239]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02670; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:20:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dick Brooks" To: Cc: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , , Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 07:30:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200105080524.BAA26229@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >HTTP servers do not dispatch on content-type. I agree, dispatching on Content-type does not occur within the HTTP server, it's the function of a message broker to dispatch based on Content-type. >either you're dispatching on the URI or you're breaking compatibility with >HTTP. I agree, the HTTP server will dispatch processing to the request-uri of a HTTP POST, in SOAP's case. However, if the request-URI is a program that performs message broker functions then dispatching, by the message broker, is performed based on Content-type or some other information within the HTTP entity headers (e.g. SOAPAction) or session information (e.g. cookies, username). If the SOAPAction is removed and there is nothing else in the HTTP headers to tell the message broker how to dispatch then the message broker will have to interrogate the incoming messages to decide how to dispatch the information. The message broker would require intimate knowledge of each incoming message, including the ability to decrypt, if necessary. The message broker design pattern needs "something" outside the message payload (e.g. HTTP or MIME headers) to facilitate dispatch functions. The alternative requires message brokers to have intimate knowledge of each message payload. Dick Brooks (ebXML liaison) http://www.8760.com/ -----Original Message----- From: moore@cs.utk.edu [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:24 AM To: Dick Brooks Cc: Keith Moore; Henrik Frystyk Nielsen; Mark Nottingham; ietf@ietf.org; xml-dist-app@w3.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. > SOAP messages can take many forms. SOAPAction provides the information > needed by a generic message broker to dispatch a message to the appropriate > handler, without requiring the message broker to have intimate knowledge of > each SOAP message structure. The SOAPAction can serve as a "key" into a > table of message processors. IMO, SOAPAction is conceptually similar to the > MIME Content-type. HTTP servers do not dispatch on content-type. either you're dispatching on the URI or you're breaking compatibility with HTTP. 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From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 09:10:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA20522 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from internet-gateway.zurich.ibm.com ([195.212.119.253]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA20185 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from collon.zurich.ibm.com (collon.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.2.193]) by internet-gateway.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27038; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:48:56 +0200 Received: from dhcp22-166.zurich.ibm.com by collon.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44288 from ; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:48:55 +0200 Message-Id: <3AF7EAC1.C1028EB3@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 07:46:57 -0500 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore Cc: Vernon Schryver , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. References: <200105080652.CAA27102@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Moore wrote: > > > What does SOAP have to do with the IETF? > > apparently they want to make incompatible changes to HTTP, and IETF > has change control over that protocol. Also because we are the organisation worrying about middleboxes such as firewalls, and therefore about their interaction with SOAP and/or XML Protocol. Also because we do have liaison with the W3C, intended to avoid incompatibilities between what they do and what we do. Brian From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 09:20:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA21096 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA20192 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26507; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081249.IAA26507@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Dick Brooks" cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2001 07:30:12 CDT." Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 08:49:33 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > The message broker design pattern needs "something" outside the message > payload (e.g. HTTP or MIME headers) to facilitate dispatch functions. The > alternative requires message brokers to have intimate knowledge of each > message payload. far better for the SOAP-specific message broker to have intimate knowledge of the SOAP-specific payload, than to have the SOAP-specific message broker to have intimate knowledge of the HTTP-specific request header. also, far better for the SOAP-specific dispatching tags to be part of the SOAP-specific payload which is supposed to be independent of the protocol being used as a substrate for SOAP, than to have to supply this dispatching tag in a different way for every substrate protocol. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 09:30:20 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA21582 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA20305 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26643; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081258.IAA26643@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter cc: Keith Moore , Vernon Schryver , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2001 07:46:57 CDT." <3AF7EAC1.C1028EB3@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 08:58:21 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Also because we are the organisation worrying about middleboxes > such as firewalls, and therefore about their interaction with > SOAP and/or XML Protocol. intermediaries *always* break when the endpoint protocols change. that's not the fault of SOAP - that's entirely due to the failure of firewall vendors and network admins to understand and apply the end-to-end argument. ironically it's this very property that causes the SOAP people to try to subvert HTTP to their needs. we need to fix the real problem - which is that we have these boxes in the interior of our network that think that they know what our end-to-end protocols look like (even though these protocols change, and need to be able to change, independently of those boxes) and think they have the license to alter them. the layering violations caused by such intermediaries are far worse than anything that SOAP is proposing. that doesn't justify more bad design on SOAP's part - but recent IETF efforts toward actually encouraging such intermediaries are far worse. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 09:40:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA21988 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.243]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA21224 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo (user-33qt1nf.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.134.239]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15837; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:21:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dick Brooks" To: Cc: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , , Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:31:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200105081249.IAA26507@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >far better for the SOAP-specific message broker to have intimate knowledge >of the SOAP-specific payload, than to have the SOAP-specific message broker >to have intimate knowledge of the HTTP-specific request header. I never said a message broker was SOAP specific. There are message brokers running on HTTP servers that can dispatch processing for EDIINT AS2, GISB EDM, AIAG E-5, ebXML, SOAP and other types. Dick From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 09:50:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA22392 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA21360 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26854; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081325.JAA26854@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Dick Brooks" cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2001 08:31:19 CDT." Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 09:25:39 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > >far better for the SOAP-specific message broker to have intimate knowledge > >of the SOAP-specific payload, than to have the SOAP-specific message broker > >to have intimate knowledge of the HTTP-specific request header. > > I never said a message broker was SOAP specific. a message broker that looks at a SOAPAction header isn't SOAP specific? > There are message brokers running on HTTP servers that can dispatch > processing for EDIINT AS2, GISB EDM, AIAG E-5, ebXML, SOAP and other types. what you are saying is that there are people out there who do not understand the value of clean separation of function between layers. how is that a justification for a standards-setting organization to propagate that misunderstanding? Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 10:00:07 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA22783 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([24.20.238.239]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA21990 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93743215FB; Tue, 8 May 2001 06:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 06:40:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Fisk To: Bora Akyol Cc: Henrik Frystyk Nielsen , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Homepage: http://home.lanl.gov/mfisk/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org A content-filtering firewall depends on the ability to interpret traffic the same way the receiver would. If you assume a malicious insider that will parse something differently then how it is labelled, then they can always tunnel, encrypt, or obfuscate traffic into something that is permitted (IP over HTTP, e-mail, covert channels, etc.). Note that if the header field is not used to dispatch on the recipient, and is just a hint to the firewall, then it is trivial to subvert the firewall and filtering based on that header field is a worthless. For example, if you have a policy that blocks ActiveX and a firewall that filters that MIME type, I can always mis-label my ActiveX as a GIF or text and send it. But then only a colluding recipient would execute it as ActiveX. However, if the receiver doesn't use the MIME type, but handles the content based on something else like filename suffix, then filtering on MIME types is pointless. On Mon, 7 May 2001, Bora Akyol wrote: > Why would a firewall or a firewall admin trust the packet to indicate > what it really is? > > Bora > > At 2:50 PM -0700 5/7/01, Henrik Frystyk Nielsen wrote: > >The meaning of SOAPAction is not to say that "this is a stockquote > >service" but to say that "I am sending you a SOAP message of a type that > >is part of a stock quote service". > > > >The difference is that one is a destination which is carried in HTTP by > >the request-URI but the other is a hint about what is in the message. > >This is why SOAPAction is a separate parameter. > > > >Henrik > > > >>> On Sun, May 06, 2001 at 03:12:08PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > >>> > and client APIs. It also keeps HTTP servers from having to know > >>> > specifically whether a particular URI corresponds with a SOAP > >>> > request (in which case it might have to look at the SOAPAction > >>> > header in order to know how to handle it) or not (in which case the > > > >>> > SOAPAction header should be ignored). > >>> > >>> Yep; seems to me that Content-Type ss more appropriate for dispatch, > >>> if doing it in a header is desireable. > > > > > >ugh. only if you must. the URL is *far* better for this purpose. > -- Mike Fisk, RADIANT Team, Network Engineering Group, Los Alamos National Lab See http://home.lanl.gov/mfisk/ for contact information From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 10:10:09 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA23238 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.243]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA22287 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo (user-33qt1nf.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.134.239]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13807; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:46:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dick Brooks" To: Cc: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , , Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:56:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200105081325.JAA26854@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I never said a message broker was SOAP specific. >a message broker that looks at a SOAPAction header isn't SOAP specific? SOAPAction is a HTTP header - message brokers are HTTP/MIME aware, including the ability to deal with HTTP/MIME extension headers, such as SOAPAction. A message broker is not required to understand the structure and semantics of a SOAP document. >what you are saying is that there are people out there who do not understand >the value of clean separation of function between layers. how is that a >justification for a standards-setting organization to propagate that >misunderstanding? Or perhaps there are people who don't understand message broker concepts. How is what I've described all that different from inetd? Consider: |ftp|telnet|finger| |ebXML|GISB|AIAGE5|AS2| | inetd | | message broker | | TCP | | HTTP | ........ ........... What's unclean about this approach, it enables centralized administration, single security domains, workflow management, a single "choke point" for security purposes. The "handlers" are in fact separate and distinct layers from the message broker. Dick From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 10:40:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA25072 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ranchero.com ([209.181.141.41]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA24767 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from murphy (64.220.161.51) by ranchero.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 8 May 2001 07:34:12 -0700 Message-ID: <15c201c0d7cb$d8b2e6f0$33a1dc40@murphy> From: "Dave Winer" To: "Keith Moore" , "Dick Brooks" Cc: , "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , , References: <200105081325.JAA26854@astro.cs.utk.edu> Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 07:33:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does the HTTP spec allow applications to add headers? If so, what the heck is the argument about? BTW, I thought SOAPAction was dorky when I first heard the idea. But it's there. There's deployment based on SOAPAction. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Moore" To: "Dick Brooks" Cc: ; "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" ; "Mark Nottingham" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 6:25 AM Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. > > >far better for the SOAP-specific message broker to have intimate knowledge > > >of the SOAP-specific payload, than to have the SOAP-specific message broker > > >to have intimate knowledge of the HTTP-specific request header. > > > > I never said a message broker was SOAP specific. > > a message broker that looks at a SOAPAction header isn't SOAP specific? > > > There are message brokers running on HTTP servers that can dispatch > > processing for EDIINT AS2, GISB EDM, AIAG E-5, ebXML, SOAP and other types. > > what you are saying is that there are people out there who do not understand > the value of clean separation of function between layers. how is that a > justification for a standards-setting organization to propagate that > misunderstanding? > > Keith > From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 11:00:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA26043 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail5.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.121]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA25784 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.9.100 by mail5.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 08 May 2001 07:27:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.75]) by inet-imc-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 8 May 2001 07:27:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 07:27:32 -0700 Message-ID: <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0344179A@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Thread-Index: AcDXgCl2t3+6zlFzRhmChNtV79oQCgASlqBA From: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "Mark Nottingham" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 May 2001 14:27:33.0036 (UTC) FILETIME=[051AF6C0:01C0D7CB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id KAA25785 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Because it can be hard to deduce from the message - especially as >> messages may be composed of many pieces from other places using SOAP's >> modular extensibility mechanism (headers). In a sense this is similar >> to that a media type can be hard to guess based on the entity alone. > >then add that to the SOAP payload that gets passed in the HTTP >entity body. don't penalize HTTP for SOAP's design deficiencies. It is not for the benefit of SOAP - it is for the benefit of HTTP which is why it is expressed in a manner that is digestible by HTTP. Your argument could equally well be applied to media types so does that mean that you feel the same way about that? Henrik From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 11:20:22 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA26974 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firewall.ma.virata.com ([198.113.147.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA26703 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agranat.com (IDENT:root@alice.agranat.com [10.21.0.130]) by firewall.ma.virata.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA23451; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:11:13 -0400 Received: from virata.com (dhcp74.ma.virata.com [10.21.0.74]) by agranat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14375; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:11:12 -0400 Message-ID: <3AF80C8F.4020308@virata.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:11:11 -0400 From: Scott Lawrence Organization: Virata User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dick Brooks CC: moore@cs.utk.edu, Henrik Frystyk Nielsen , Mark Nottingham , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to me that the argument for using the SOAPAction header is based on two conflicting points: - that the action needs to be identified outside the HTTP body so that it can be used by a message broker to dispatch the body without understanding it. and - that the message broker cannot use the URI because it is not a part of the HTTP server Either the message broker is part of the server, can use a header value (including the URI) and the body is opaque, or it isn't and should use the body but not the headers. It seems to me that together, these argue for an additional layer of encapsulation - send a message broker body (whatever that is) in the HTTP message (with the URI of the message broker and a content type that identifies it as a message broker message), and then within that body encapsulate a SOAP message, with whatever metadata the message broker needs to dispatch it. If an additional encapsulation sounds harder to deal with in a firewall, then you begin to understand what firewalls are for. The objective, IMHO, should not be to design protocols so that we can poke them through firewalls - that is a bad way to use firewalls. We should instead design things so that it is easy for services to be offered outside firewalls when that is appropriate (yes, this is hard, but it is the real problem and the hacks to avoid solving it only make it worse). We should not permit upper-layer protocols to poke information arbitrarily far down into the stack in order to label the payload as 'ok to pass through security' unless we have also defined ways for that label to be appropriately secured. If we can have SOAP reaching past the 'message broker' to HTTP with its label, why not have it reach past HTTP to add a TCP option? When put that way it seems silly - the HTTP option really isn't any better. As for the specific question that began this thread (whether the SOAPAction header is useful or not), I can offer an implementation perspective. We've implemented the 0.9 version of SOAP as a part of our UPnP implementation. SOAP/0.9 is carried in HTTP and does include the SOAPAction header. It also includes the same information (the action identifier) in the XML body of the message. We found the potential conflict between these to be a major pain to deal with, especially since the namespace was represented differently in the header and body (which meant that the comparison had to be namespace-aware, it couldn't just be the equivalent of strcmp). -- Scott Lawrence Architect slawrence@virata.com Virata Embedded Web Technology http://www.emweb.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 11:30:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA27397 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firewall.ma.virata.com ([198.113.147.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA26929 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agranat.com (IDENT:root@alice.agranat.com [10.21.0.130]) by firewall.ma.virata.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA23478; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:18:41 -0400 Received: from virata.com (dhcp74.ma.virata.com [10.21.0.74]) by agranat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14441; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:18:40 -0400 Message-ID: <3AF80E4F.3070604@virata.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:18:39 -0400 From: Scott Lawrence Organization: Virata User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dick Brooks CC: moore@cs.utk.edu, Henrik Frystyk Nielsen , Mark Nottingham , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Brooks wrote: > How is what I've described all that different from inetd? Consider: > > |ftp|telnet|finger| |ebXML|GISB|AIAGE5|AS2| > | inetd | | message broker | > | TCP | | HTTP | > ........ ........... > > What's unclean about this approach, it enables centralized administration, > single security domains, workflow management, a single "choke point" for > security purposes. The "handlers" are in fact separate and distinct layers > from the message broker. Inetd uses only the port number - the address provided by the TCP and UDP layers below it - to make its decision. What is not clear (to me at least) is why the URI isn't enough to make the decision - that is the address of the resource above the HTTP layer. I don't see why administering and managing SOAPAction headers and Content-Types and whatever else is easier than adminstering URIs. -- Scott Lawrence Architect slawrence@virata.com Virata Embedded Web Technology http://www.emweb.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 11:40:09 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA27975 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA27126 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27434; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081523.LAA27434@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Dick Brooks" cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2001 08:56:20 CDT." Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:23:51 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > >> I never said a message broker was SOAP specific. > > >a message broker that looks at a SOAPAction header isn't SOAP specific? > > SOAPAction is a HTTP header - message brokers are HTTP/MIME aware, > including the ability to deal with HTTP/MIME extension headers, such > as SOAPAction. HTTP and MIME are not the same thing. They do not have the same set of extension headers, nor the same extension mechanisms, even if some of the protocol elements have the same names between the two. (this has caused a fair amount of confusion when MIME header names were borrowed for HTTP but used with slightly different semantics) They share a common set of media types, and not much more than that. > A message broker is not required to understand the > structure and semantics of a SOAP document. I get that. But you're requiring it to understand HTTP headers, which is worse. > >what you are saying is that there are people out there who do not > understand > >the value of clean separation of function between layers. how is that a > >justification for a standards-setting organization to propagate that > >misunderstanding? > > Or perhaps there are people who don't understand message broker concepts. > How is what I've described all that different from inetd? Consider: inetd dispatches on destination port number. destination port number is *defined* as a dispatching mechanism for TCP and UDP. what you're describing is like adding an IP option to provide an additional means of dispatching incoming IP messages, when port numbers already exist for this purpose. in the HTTP world, URIs already exist for the purpose of dispatching incoming HTTP requests. to change this is to break HTTP. > What's unclean about this approach, it enables centralized administration, > single security domains, workflow management, a single "choke point" for > security purposes. The "handlers" are in fact separate and distinct layers > from the message broker. it breaks compatibility with HTTP, it forces SOAP implementations to depend on non-portable features of HTTP client libraries and proxies, it is not portable across SOAP substrates, it is not reliable as a filtering mechanism (meaning it's inherently insecure), and it doesn't work with encryption. what's more, you haven't provided a single justification for making this external to the SOAP protocol. if the SOAP protocol can't provide some easily accessible tagging to facilitate dispatching within the SOAP world, perhaps this is because some basic idea behind SOAP is inhernetly flawed - such as that it's a good idea to use XML for everything, or that it's a good idea to layer new protocols on top of HTTP. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 11:50:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA28656 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA27185 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27459; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081525.LAA27459@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Dave Winer" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Dick Brooks" , "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2001 07:33:26 PDT." <15c201c0d7cb$d8b2e6f0$33a1dc40@murphy> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:25:16 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Does the HTTP spec allow applications to add headers? HTTP *is* an application. it's not intended to be used as a substrate for other applications. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 12:00:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA29288 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA27325 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from regan.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.89.11]) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14x9Ok-00043Y-00; Tue, 08 May 2001 16:27:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:27:38 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@regan.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: Dick Brooks cc: moore , Henrik Frystyk Nielsen , Mark Nottingham , ietf , xml-dist-app Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *14x9Ok-00043Y-00*DQYW2DVvxzo* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Tue, 8 May 2001, Dick Brooks wrote: > >what you are saying is that there are people out there who do not understand > >the value of clean separation of function between layers. how is that a > >justification for a standards-setting organization to propagate that > >misunderstanding? > > Or perhaps there are people who don't understand message broker concepts. > > How is what I've described all that different from inetd? ftp, telnet and finger services run on different ports with different numbers, are clearly separate services with no interdependencies, and don't require ever-more-complex parser implementations to work correctly. Separate, compartmentalised functionality has its advantages. L. IP is the waist in the hourglass. no, HTTP is the waist in the hourglass. no, CCAMP is the waist in the hourglass. and time is still running out. > Consider: > > |ftp|telnet|finger| |ebXML|GISB|AIAGE5|AS2| > | inetd | | message broker | > | TCP | | HTTP | > ........ ........... > > What's unclean about this approach, it enables centralized administration, > single security domains, workflow management, a single "choke point" for > security purposes. The "handlers" are in fact separate and distinct layers > from the message broker. > > Dick PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 12:10:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA29830 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1-132.mnot.net ([64.170.196.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA28020 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by 1-132.mnot.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 590912762; Tue, 8 May 2001 08:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:40:19 -0700 From: Mark Nottingham To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Message-ID: <20010508084015.D2639@akamai.com> References: <200105081523.LAA27434@astro.cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105081523.LAA27434@astro.cs.utk.edu>; from moore@cs.utk.edu on Tue, May 08, 2001 at 11:23:51AM -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > such as that it's a good idea to use XML for everything, or that it's a good > idea to layer new protocols on top of HTTP. Ah, diplomacy at its finest. ;) I didn't intend for the issues to be debated cross-group on the main IETF list; a better forum would be the xml-dist-app@w3.org list, which is archived and explained at http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/ Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham, Research Scientist Akamai Technologies (San Mateo, CA USA) From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 12:40:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA01073 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA00829 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28006; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081631.MAA28006@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Mark Nottingham" , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 May 2001 07:27:32 PDT." <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D0344179A@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 12:31:38 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > It is not for the benefit of SOAP - it is for the benefit of HTTP which > is why it is expressed in a manner that is digestible by HTTP. it's not for the benefit of HTTP, as HTTP already has a suitable dispatch mechanism - namely, the request URI. it *might* be for the benefit of vendors who want to sell upgraded HTTP servers or client libraries that support the new feature, and force customers to upgrade if they want to use SOAP. but I don't see that as an adequate justification. > Your argument could equally well be applied to media types media types aren't intended for dispatching on the server side. however, the use of media types with HTTP applications brings up a very similar issue - if the content-type is orthogonal to the request, and the server can potentially handle the same request in different formats, fine. but if the part of the request is communicated by the content-type, this makes it impossible to transmit a properly-typed service request 'as data' without implicitly requesting the semantics of that service. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 12:50:07 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA01383 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA00994 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28070; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105081636.MAA28070@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ X-PGP-Key: 2F07A741 ; 78 15 8E 8B C0 06 5D D1 BC 08 05 7F 42 81 7E 90 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: press release: new IETF WG: Drunk Driving on the Internet cc: moore@cs.utk.edu From: Keith Moore Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 12:36:49 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org April 31, 2001 - The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) today announced formation of a new working group, tasked with the purpose of standardizing drunk driving on the information superhighway. The group, which is yet to be named, was formed in response to pressure from leaders in the networking hardware, networking software, and alcoholic beverage industries. The group will be a part of the newly created Misapplications Area. "Drunk driving is already in such widespread deployment as to be a de facto standard", said one industry leader. "We're pleased that IETF has stopped ignoring reality and is now willing to formally codify the practice." "We are only beginning recognize the tremendous importance of drunk driving to the Internet economy" said the new Misapplications AD. "Unfortunately, drunk driving imposes additional constraints on both the information highway itself and on other drivers on that highway. For instance, unimpaired drivers are expected to stay within the boundaries of the roadway, on the sides of the road appropriate to their direction, and to stop at intersections before entering them to look for crossing traffic. Up until new we have cited drivers for layering violations when they failed to follow these rules. However, experience suggests that these are not reasonable constraints for drunk drivers. We therefore intend to develop new standards to better facilitate drunk driving." The exact form of these standards is yet to be determined, but among the ideas that have been proposed are allowing drivers to utilize both sides of the road at once (since it is widely acknowledge that all traffic is intended to flow in one direction anyway), installing large padded bumpers around all vehicles, and requiring all non-drunk drivers to install large flashing strobe lights and systems which warn of the proximity of a drunk driver to their vehicles. In response to charges that an increase in drunk driving would impair the safe and reliable operation of other uses of the information highway, an industry leader responded, "We have already demonstrated interoperability of drunk driving on a small scale, between many different vendors. We believe that any other vehicles are of no consequence, as all of our customers are already seriously impairied anyway. Otherwise, they wouldn't be buying our products." IETF also promised to establish liasons with other standards organizations which have groups tasked with standardizing driving while blind, under the influence of hallucinogens, and with railroad spikes through the driver's head. -30- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 13:11:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA01868 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com ([192.188.61.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA01711 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f48H2Zi17327 for ietf@ietf.org env-from ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:02:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:02:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200105081702.f48H2Zi17327@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > From: Mark Nottingham > > such as that it's a good idea to use XML for everything, or that it's a good > > idea to layer new protocols on top of HTTP. > > Ah, diplomacy at its finest. ;) > > I didn't intend for the issues to be debated cross-group on the main > IETF list; a better forum would be the xml-dist-app@w3.org list, > which is archived and explained at > http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/ I'm confused. Either this is an IETF issue and so can only be debated on IETF lists, or it has nothing to do with the IETF and shouldn't have been brought here. My guess was the second alternative, but people said that SOAP involves changing HTTP, and the IETF owns HTTP. If that is true, than the a W3.org list would be wrong. Worse, this whole exercise could be seen as an attempt to co-opt the IETF's approval for a change to an IETF protocol without letting IETF know what's going on. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 13:21:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA02280 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engenia1.engenia.com ([216.132.101.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA01757 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ENGENIA1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:04:55 -0400 Message-ID: <45F51952AE8AD41180B3009027E5AF6E499B52@ENGENIA1> From: Jeffrey Kay To: "'Dave Winer'" , Keith Moore , Dick Brooks Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Henrik Frystyk Nielsen , Mark Nottingham , ietf@ietf.org, xml-dist-app@W3.ORG Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:04:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org The question here isn't whether SOAPAction is allowable within the HTTP spec -- it is. The argument is that SOAPAction is a duplication of information that should appear in the URI and the Content-Type headers. As a result, the SOAP spec _mandates_ its use. The problem with it is that it unnecessarily levies a requirement on the web infrastructure. SOAP would work just as well without it. Frontier's implementation, per Jake Savin's excellent posts, describe how SOAPAction is used instead of a URI for a SOAP dispatcher. That alone sort of defies the nature of the web where URIs are supposed to identify resources. In the Frontier model, a SOAP post to any URI is resolved by the SOAPAction header for dispatching. In this model, the SOAPAction header could easily be replaced by a URI and a Content-Type header with the same effect. In this way, existing web servers could process SOAP without being required to process a special HTTP header. In addition, the approach I suggest doesn't bleed information out of the SOAP envelope into the transport, much like HTTP doesn't bleed into TCP. jeffrey kay chief technology officer, engenia software, inc. "first get your facts, then you can distort them at your leisure" -- mark twain "golf is an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle" -- sports illustrated "if A equals success, then the formula is A equals X plus Y plus Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut." -- albert einstein > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@userland.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:33 AM > To: Keith Moore; Dick Brooks > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; Henrik Frystyk Nielsen; Mark Nottingham; > ietf@ietf.org; xml-dist-app@w3.org > Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. > > > Does the HTTP spec allow applications to add headers? > > If so, what the heck is the argument about? > > BTW, I thought SOAPAction was dorky when I first heard the > idea. But it's > there. > > There's deployment based on SOAPAction. > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Moore" > To: "Dick Brooks" > Cc: ; "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" > ; > "Mark Nottingham" ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 6:25 AM > Subject: Re: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. > > > > > >far better for the SOAP-specific message broker to have intimate > knowledge > > > >of the SOAP-specific payload, than to have the > SOAP-specific message > broker > > > >to have intimate knowledge of the HTTP-specific request header. > > > > > > I never said a message broker was SOAP specific. > > > > a message broker that looks at a SOAPAction header isn't > SOAP specific? > > > > > There are message brokers running on HTTP servers that > can dispatch > > > processing for EDIINT AS2, GISB EDM, AIAG E-5, ebXML, > SOAP and other > types. > > > > what you are saying is that there are people out there who do not > understand > > the value of clean separation of function between layers. > how is that a > > justification for a standards-setting organization to propagate that > > misunderstanding? > > > > Keith > > > From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 13:41:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA02823 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov ([136.177.164.192]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA02649 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov (rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov [136.177.164.192]) by rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA07662 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:27:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200105081727.MAA07662@rgfsparc.cr.usgs.gov> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:27:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "Robert G. Ferrell" Reply-To: "Robert G. Ferrell" Subject: Re: press release: new IETF WG: Drunk Driving on the Internet To: ietf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: MQv7bjulJgY6C54b2m+XZQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >IETF also promised to establish liasons with other standards organizations >which have groups tasked with standardizing driving while blind, under the >influence of hallucinogens, and with railroad spikes through the driver's head. Not to mention driving while talking on a cell phone. ;-) RGF From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 16:30:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA06958 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from catbert.rellim.com (root@[204.17.205.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA06920 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (gem@localhost) by catbert.rellim.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f48KTAR20134; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:29:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:29:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Gary E. Miller" To: Mike Fisk cc: Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Yo Mike! On Tue, 8 May 2001, Mike Fisk wrote: > For example, if you have a policy that blocks ActiveX and a firewall that > filters that MIME type, I can always mis-label my ActiveX as a GIF or text > and send it. But then only a colluding recipient would execute it as > ActiveX. However, if the receiver doesn't use the MIME type, but handles > the content based on something else like filename suffix, then filtering > on MIME types is pointless. Not true. Many of the recent Windows exploits have depended on the fact that M$ often executes a downloaded file depending on file magic instead of the MIME type or file extention. They fool the firewall and virus scanner in to thinking a malicious file is one that in non-excutable, then M$ goes and excutes it. RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Ave, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 8 16:40:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA07117 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA06935 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.9.100 by mail3.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 08 May 2001 08:45:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.75]) by inet-imc-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 8 May 2001 08:47:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:47:12 -0700 Message-ID: <79107D208BA38C45A4E45F62673A434D034417A1@red-msg-07.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: SOAP/XML Protocol and filtering, etc. Thread-Index: AcDX0VG6S9S46F4hRGeuV1Fp3mGSSwABJQCg From: "Henrik Frystyk Nielsen" To: "Scott Lawrence" , "Dick Brooks" Cc: , "Mark Nottingham" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 May 2001 15:47:13.0971 (UTC) FILETIME=[26C3C030:01C0D7D6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id QAA06936 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Scott, Just as a heads-up - SOAP/1.1 [1] changed this to allow any URI in the SOAPAction header field so this should not be a problem anymore. Henrik [1] http://www.w3.org/tr/soap/ >As for the specific question that began this thread (whether the >SOAPAction header is useful or not), I can offer an implementation >perspective. We've implemented the 0.9 version of SOAP as a part of >our UPnP implementation. SOAP/0.9 is carried in HTTP and does >include the SOAPAction header. It also includes the same >information (the action identifier) in the XML body of the message. > We found the potential conflict between these to be a major pain >to deal with, especially since the namespace was represented >differently in the header and body (which meant that the comparison >had to be namespace-aware, it couldn't just be the equivalent of >strcmp). From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 00:52:42 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA15867 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 00:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pavilion ([24.31.80.230]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA15398 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 00:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3429200153941657380@pavilion> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 19 X-EM-Registration: #01B0530810E603002D00 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal From: "Mitchell" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Business/Employment Opportunity Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:16:57 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id AAA15401 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friend: "Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time" THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! =============================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !! Before you say "Bull" , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost". DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in". Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed thesimple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything ." More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. ****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through6 or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 250 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free adson the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: G. Donaldson P.O. Box 25884 Honolulu, Hawaii 96825-0884 don't forget to provide a permanent e-mail address in clear writing (better typed) to receive the reports. We had problems in delivery e-mails before!!! ============================================== REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Vijay Paul C-291, Second Floor Defence Colony New Delhi - 110024 INDIA ============================================== REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JD P.O.Box 1114 Des Plaines, IL 60017 USA ============================================== REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: J Santi 833 Walter Ave Des Plaines, IL 60016 USA ============================================== REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Elaine Rix 138 Dundas Street, West, #243 Toronto, Ontario Canada M5G 1C3 ============================================== There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide! $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ____________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** "My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn'twork. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''." Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks". Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- "It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. ------------------------------------------------------------ This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered Spam as long as we include the way to be removed. Per Section HR 1910, Please type "REMOVE" in the subject line and reply to this email. All removal requests are handled personally an immediately once received. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 00:59:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA15986 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 00:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pavilion ([24.31.80.230]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA15398 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 00:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3429200153941657380@pavilion> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 19 X-EM-Registration: #01B0530810E603002D00 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal From: "Mitchell" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Business/Employment Opportunity Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:16:57 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id AAA15401 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friend: "Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time" THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! =============================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !! Before you say "Bull" , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost". DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in". Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed thesimple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything ." More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. ****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through6 or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 250 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free adson the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: G. Donaldson P.O. Box 25884 Honolulu, Hawaii 96825-0884 don't forget to provide a permanent e-mail address in clear writing (better typed) to receive the reports. We had problems in delivery e-mails before!!! ============================================== REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Vijay Paul C-291, Second Floor Defence Colony New Delhi - 110024 INDIA ============================================== REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JD P.O.Box 1114 Des Plaines, IL 60017 USA ============================================== REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: J Santi 833 Walter Ave Des Plaines, IL 60016 USA ============================================== REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Elaine Rix 138 Dundas Street, West, #243 Toronto, Ontario Canada M5G 1C3 ============================================== There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide! $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ____________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** "My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn'twork. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''." Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks". Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- "It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. ------------------------------------------------------------ This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered Spam as long as we include the way to be removed. Per Section HR 1910, Please type "REMOVE" in the subject line and reply to this email. All removal requests are handled personally an immediately once received. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 05:11:52 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA02366 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl ([130.89.10.247]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA02304 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:05:41 -0400 (EDT) From: tzolov@cs.utwente.nl Received: from utip129 (utip129.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.12.65]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22800 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:05:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <4136251.989399147672.JavaMail.localadmin@utip129> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:05:47 +0200 (GMT+02:00) To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: [PROMS 2001] - Call for paper submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1025_1362827.989399147672" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org ------=_Part_1025_1362827.989399147672 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Cp1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Apologies if you receive this more than once] Second Call for Papers 6th International Conference on Protocols for Multimedia Systems - PROMS 2001 17-19 October, Enschede, The Netherlands Organised by the Center for Telematics and Information Technology (CTIT) at the University of Twente Emerging broadband interactive applications along with a development of different networking technologies should draw telecom operators' and service providers' attention to protocols supporting multimedia systems as an interface between these two environments that has to be still investigated and modified. The PROMS 2001 conference is intended to contribute to a scientific, strategic and practical cooperation between research institutes and industrial companies in the area of distributed multimedia applications, protocols, and intelligent management tools, with emphasis on their provision over broadband networks. PROMS 2001 will cover papers and demonstrations on research and achievements related to the following topics: =B7 design and implementation of multimedia protocols for public switched telephony networks, mobile networks, data networks, and satellite networks using IP, ATM or other connectivity techniques; =B7 application, media, and protocol integration: synchronization of media streams; =B7 multiparty and group communication protocols; =B7 mobile networking and routing: multimedia communication architectures for mobile networks; =B7 multimedia applications: video-on-demand, digital video libraries, video games, virtual community, teleworking, teleteaching, e-commerce, telemeeting, virtual reality simulations; =B7 content based searching and querying; =B7 techniques for the specification of communication services required by multimedia applications; =B7 methods for real-time testing and analysis of service implementations; =B7 integration of media storage and communication mechanisms, operating system and high-performance issues; =B7 experiences with service provisioning using distributed multimedia applications; =B7 performance of protocols and applications: modelling, simulation and optimization in different networks; =B7 multimedia traffic engineering; =B7 applications and platforms for service management and provisioning; =B7 definition, provisioning, and supervision of QoS parameters for networked applications and services; =B7 intelligent management tools pertaining to costs and QoS, network access, accounting, security, and system resilience; =B7 service access - security, authentication, privacy; =B7 accounting and tariff policing for multimedia teleservices. PROMS 2001 will consist of a two days technical program, a full day=20 of tutorials, and demonstrations during the conference. We encourage contributions in the form of full papers and position papers. Full=20 papers should describe innovative and significant work. Position=20 papers are meant to enable researchers to present exciting ongoing=20 work in early stages, opinions about current developments, and=20 suggestions for future directions. The purpose of position papers=20 is to provide a seed for debate and discussion. Both types of papers=20 will be reviewed by the program committee and included in the=20 workshop proceedings. The proceedings will be published by=20 Springer-Verlag as a Lecture Notes in Computer Science. INFORMATION FOR AUTHORS Authors are invited to submit full papers and position papers in PDF=20 through our Web site http://www.ctit.utwente.nl/news/proms_2001.htm.=20 Submitted manuscripts must describe original work (not submitted=20 elsewhere). Full papers must not be longer than 12 single spaced=20 pages and position papers must not be longer than 6 single spaced=20 pages. Both types of papers should contain an abstract of approximately=20 300 words, and include title, authors and affiliations. Final=20 versions of accepted papers must be structured according to the=20 instructions of Springer-Verlag. For further information, please=20 contact a member of the organising committee (proms2001@ctit.utwente.nl). IMPORTANT DATES =B7 Full papers due 31 May 2001 =B7 Authors notified 30 June 2001 =B7 Full paper camera ready due 27 July 2001 CONFERENCE CHAIRMEN Marten van Sinderen (chair), Univ. of Twente, NL, sinderen@ctit.utwente.nl Lambert Nieuwenhuis (co-chair), KPN Research and Univ. of Twente, NL, bart@cs.utwente.nl PROGRAM COMMITTEE A. Azcorra, Carlos III Univ., Spain J.L. van den Berg, KPN Research / Univ. of Twente, Netherlands A. Campbell, Colombia University, USA M. Diaz, LAAS-CNRS, France H. Eertink, Telematica Instituut, Netherlands F. Eliassen, University of Oslo, Netherlands L. Ferreira Pires, University of Twente, Netherlands F. Fontes, Portugal Telecom Inova=E7=E3o, SA, Portugal G. Heijenk, Ericsson Eurolab, Netherlands U. Hofmann, Univ. Salzburg, Germany D. Hutchison, Lancaster University, UK W. Jonker, KPN Research / Univ. of Twente, Netherlands D. Konstantas, Univ. of Twente, NL / Univ. of Geneva, Switserland C. Linnhoff-Popien, Institut f=FCr Informatik, Germany L. Mathy, Lancaster Univ., UK L. Nieuwenhuis, KPN Research / Univ. of Twente, Netherlands S. Pallazzo, Univ. of Catania, Italy Z. Papir, Univ. of Mining and Metallurgy, Poland T. Plagemann, University of Oslo, UniK, Norway R. Popescu-Zeletin, GMD-FOKUS, Germany D. Quartel, University of Twente, Netherlands J.-L. Raffy, Institut National des Telecommunications, France J. Schot, Lucent Technologies, Netherlands M. van Sinderen, Univ. of Twente, Netherlands J. Zuidweg, Tecsidel, Spain ORGANISING COMMITTEE Giancarlo Guizzardi, Univ. of Twente, guizzard@cs.utwente.nl Christian Tzolov, Univ. of Twente, tzolov@cs.utwente.nl Marloes Castaneda Schlie, Univ. of Twente, castaned@ctit.utwente.nl Annelies Klos, Univ. of Twente, Klos@cs.utwente.nl ------=_Part_1025_1362827.989399147672-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 06:01:30 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA02918 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl ([130.89.10.247]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA02816 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:53:55 -0400 (EDT) From: tzolov@cs.utwente.nl Received: from utip129 (utip129.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.12.65]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02514 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:53:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <1582986.989402042876.JavaMail.localadmin@utip129> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:54:02 +0200 (GMT+02:00) To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: [PROMS 2001] - Call for paper submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1025_4136251.989402042866" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org ------=_Part_1025_4136251.989402042866 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Apologies if you receive this more than once] Second Call for Papers 6th International Conference on Protocols for Multimedia Systems - PROMS 2001 17-19 October, Enschede, The Netherlands Organised by the Center for Telematics and Information Technology (CTIT) at the University of Twente Emerging broadband interactive applications along with a development of different networking technologies should draw telecom operators' and service providers' attention to protocols supporting multimedia systems as an interface between these two environments that has to be still investigated and modified. The PROMS 2001 conference is intended to contribute to a scientific, strategic and practical cooperation between research institutes and industrial companies in the area of distributed multimedia applications, protocols, and intelligent management tools, with emphasis on their provision over broadband networks. PROMS 2001 will cover papers and demonstrations on research and achievements related to the following topics: - design and implementation of multimedia protocols for public switched telephony networks, mobile networks, data networks, and satellite networks using IP, ATM or other connectivity techniques; - application, media, and protocol integration: synchronization of media streams; - multiparty and group communication protocols; - mobile networking and routing: multimedia communication architectures for mobile networks; - multimedia applications: video-on-demand, digital video libraries, video games, virtual community, teleworking, teleteaching, e-commerce, telemeeting, virtual reality simulations; - content based searching and querying; - techniques for the specification of communication services required by multimedia applications; - methods for real-time testing and analysis of service implementations; - integration of media storage and communication mechanisms, operating system and high-performance issues; - experiences with service provisioning using distributed multimedia applications; - performance of protocols and applications: modelling, simulation and optimization in different networks; - multimedia traffic engineering; - applications and platforms for service management and provisioning; - definition, provisioning, and supervision of QoS parameters for networked applications and services; - intelligent management tools pertaining to costs and QoS, network access, accounting, security, and system resilience; - service access - security, authentication, privacy; - accounting and tariff policing for multimedia teleservices. PROMS 2001 will consist of a two days technical program, a full day of tutorials, and demonstrations during the conference. We encourage contributions in the form of full papers and position papers. Full papers should describe innovative and significant work. Position papers are meant to enable researchers to present exciting ongoing work in early stages, opinions about current developments, and suggestions for future directions. The purpose of position papers is to provide a seed for debate and discussion. Both types of papers will be reviewed by the program committee and included in the workshop proceedings. The proceedings will be published by Springer-Verlag as a Lecture Notes in Computer Science. INFORMATION FOR AUTHORS Authors are invited to submit full papers and position papers in PDF through our Web site http://www.ctit.utwente.nl/news/proms_2001.htm. Submitted manuscripts must describe original work (not submitted elsewhere). Full papers must not be longer than 12 single spaced pages and position papers must not be longer than 6 single spaced pages. Both types of papers should contain an abstract of approximately 300 words, and include title, authors and affiliations. Final versions of accepted papers must be structured according to the instructions of Springer-Verlag. For further information, please contact a member of the organising committee (proms2001@ctit.utwente.nl). IMPORTANT DATES - Full papers due 31 May 2001 - Authors notified 30 June 2001 - Full paper camera ready due 27 July 2001 CONFERENCE CHAIRMEN Marten van Sinderen (chair), Univ. of Twente, NL, sinderen@ctit.utwente.nl Lambert Nieuwenhuis (co-chair), KPN Research and Univ. of Twente, NL, bart@cs.utwente.nl PROGRAM COMMITTEE A. Azcorra, Carlos III Univ., Spain J.L. van den Berg, KPN Research / Univ. of Twente, Netherlands A. Campbell, Colombia University, USA M. Diaz, LAAS-CNRS, France H. Eertink, Telematica Instituut, Netherlands F. Eliassen, University of Oslo, Netherlands L. Ferreira Pires, University of Twente, Netherlands F. Fontes, Portugal Telecom Inovatpo, SA, Portugal G. Heijenk, Ericsson Eurolab, Netherlands U. Hofmann, Univ. Salzburg, Germany D. Hutchison, Lancaster University, UK W. Jonker, KPN Research / Univ. of Twente, Netherlands D. Konstantas, Univ. of Twente, NL / Univ. of Geneva, Switserland C. Linnhoff-Popien, Institut fnr Informatik, Germany L. Mathy, Lancaster Univ., UK L. Nieuwenhuis, KPN Research / Univ. of Twente, Netherlands S. Pallazzo, Univ. of Catania, Italy Z. Papir, Univ. of Mining and Metallurgy, Poland T. Plagemann, University of Oslo, UniK, Norway R. Popescu-Zeletin, GMD-FOKUS, Germany D. Quartel, University of Twente, Netherlands J.-L. Raffy, Institut National des Telecommunications, France J. Schot, Lucent Technologies, Netherlands M. van Sinderen, Univ. of Twente, Netherlands J. Zuidweg, Tecsidel, Spain ORGANISING COMMITTEE Giancarlo Guizzardi, Univ. of Twente, guizzard@cs.utwente.nl Christian Tzolov, Univ. of Twente, tzolov@cs.utwente.nl Marloes Castaneda Schlie, Univ. of Twente, castaned@ctit.utwente.nl Annelies Klos, Univ. of Twente, Klos@cs.utwente.nl ------=_Part_1025_4136251.989402042866-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 09:33:35 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA05845 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torexch1.tor.microage.ca ([209.135.117.66]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA05718 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pgeorgiou (unixso8.intria.com [209.167.131.9]) by torexch1.tor.microage.ca with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id KD1VTCV5; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:21:41 -0400 Message-ID: <008b01c0d88c$00dd0640$43ec310a@Gem.hp.com> From: "Paul Georgiou HP" To: "IETF" , "Mitchell" Subject: RE: Business/Employment Opportunity Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:28:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0D86A.798842C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0D86A.798842C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Pyramid scheme by any other name... -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell To: ietf@ietf.org Sent: 5/9/01 12:16 AM Subject: Business/Employment Opportunity Dear Friend: "Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time" THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !! ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0D86A.798842C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 A Pyramid scheme by any other=20 name...
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = Mitchell
To:=20 ietf@ietf.org
Sent: 5/9/01 12:16 = AM
Subject: Business/Employment Opportunity
 
Dear Friend:
 
"Making over half million dollars every = 4 to 5=20 months from your
home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars = expense=20 one
time"
 
THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE=20 INTERNET!
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
 
BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A = YEAR=20 !!
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0D86A.798842C0-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 10:30:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA08471 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk ([128.16.5.31]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA08338 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sonic.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:27:37 +0100 to: ietf@ietf.org Subject: london ietf metadata Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:27:38 +0100 Message-ID: <8775.989418458@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Jon Crowcroft X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org i was promted yesterday by a couple of (brit) WG chairs to send this: remember -there's some info about london at: as suggested by ietfers - more suggestions always welcome too note london in august is v popular with tourists as there are so few cows here so book soonest to avoid disappointment cheers jon From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 14:40:39 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA20889 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from viva.vivacenet.com ([64.221.212.132]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA20866 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AMALIS.vivacenet.com [216.112.176.96] by viva.vivacenet.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEE0223D00F6; Wed, 09 May 2001 11:39:28 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010509143640.0439bc40@mail.vivacenetworks.com> X-Sender: Andy.Malis@mail.vivacenetworks.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:39:22 -0400 To: ietf@ietf.org From: "Andrew G. Malis" Subject: Deja vu all over again (53rd IETF) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org From http://www.ietf.org/meetings/0mtg-sites.txt: Spring 2002 - 53rd IETF March 17-22, 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Host: TBD Cheers, Andy From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 17:40:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA25920 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from diablo.cisco.com ([171.68.224.210]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA25897 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ole@localhost) by diablo.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with SMTP id OAA19681 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ole J. Jacobsen" To: The IETF Subject: London meeting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I just noticed that the registration and hotel info is up at ietf.org. Was this announced to the IETF or IETF-Announce list? I do not recall seeing. Already the hotel is fully booked, sigh... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office of the CTO, Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 GSM: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 17:50:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA26297 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gungnir.fnal.gov ([131.225.80.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA26016 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gungnir.fnal.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gungnir.fnal.gov (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18719 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:41:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200105092141.QAA18719@gungnir.fnal.gov> To: ietf@ietf.org From: "Matt Crawford" Subject: Re: Deja vu all over again (53rd IETF) In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 09 May 2001 14:39:22 EDT. <5.1.0.14.2.20010509143640.0439bc40@mail.vivacenetworks.com> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:41:32 -0500 Sender: crawdad@gungnir.fnal.gov X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > From http://www.ietf.org/meetings/0mtg-sites.txt: > Spring 2002 - 53rd IETF > March 17-22, 2002 > Location: Minneapolis, MN > Host: TBD We could have wished for nicer weather, but everything else went pretty well there. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 9 18:20:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA27312 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 18:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil ([134.207.10.161]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26803 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 18:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cmf.nrl.navy.mil (kenh@elvis.cmf.nrl.navy.mil [134.207.10.38]) (authenticated) by ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f49M4HU18191; Wed, 9 May 2001 18:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105092204.f49M4HU18191@ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil> To: "Ole J. Jacobsen" cc: The IETF Subject: Re: London meeting In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 May 2001 14:39:26 PDT." X-Face: "Evs"_GpJ]],xS)b$T2#V&{KfP_i2`TlPrY$Iv9+TQ!6+`~+l)#7I)0xr1>4hfd{#0B4 WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yPkEpSD@*e` Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:04:13 -0400 From: Ken Hornstein X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >I just noticed that the registration and hotel info is up at ietf.org. > >Was this announced to the IETF or IETF-Announce list? I do not recall >seeing. I don't recall seeing an announcement. I occasionally check the web page, and IIRC, the web page said, in order, - Will be announced in April - Will be announced in the last week of April - Will be announced April 28th - Will be announced May 1st. So I checked the web page more often as the date converged. --Ken From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 10 06:21:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA22084 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marvin.axion.bt.co.uk ([132.146.16.82]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA21831 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:56:50 -0400 (EDT) From: graham.travers@bt.com Received: from chqlubnt02.lon.bt.com by marvin (local) with ESMTP; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:45:18 +0100 Received: by chqlubnt02.lon.bt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.35) id ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:45:03 +0100 Message-ID: <451D45016C2CD2119DA50000F8FE7F070C1A99B6@mlngcbnt01.hc.bt.com> To: itojun@iijlab.net, ietf@ietf.org Cc: matthew.ford@bt.com, mike.bexon@bt.com, keith.dickerson@bt.com Subject: RE: IPv6 network @ IETF51 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:45:02 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.35) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org itojun, Please excuse my delay in replying, as I have been on leave. BT is planning to provide an officially supported IPv6 network for the London meeting. If you want more details, please contact Mat Ford (matthew.ford@bt.com). Regards, Graham Travers International Standards Manager BTexact Technologies e-mail: graham.traversr@bt.com tel: +44(0) 1359 235086 mobile: +44(0) 7808 502536 fax: +44(0) 1359 235087 HWB279, PO Box 200,London, N18 1ZF, UK BTexact Technologies is a trademark of British Telecommunications plc Registered office: 81 Newgate Street London EC1A 7AJ Registered in England no. 1800000 This electronic message contains information from British Telecommunications plc which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately. -----Original Message----- From: itojun@iijlab.net [mailto:itojun@iijlab.net] Sent: 02 May 2001 03:20 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: IPv6 network @ IETF51 sorry for wide distribution. at IETF51, will there be an officially-supported IPv6 network? if not, who will be in charge for IETF51 network? (i'd like to help). itojun From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 10 12:26:25 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA01696 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA01364 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:58:50 -0400 (EDT) From: ned.freed@mrochek.com Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01K3E0DGQGKW002XZW@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Deja vu all over again (53rd IETF) In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 09 May 2001 16:41:32 -0500" <200105092141.QAA18719@gungnir.fnal.gov> To: Matt Crawford Cc: ietf@ietf.org Message-id: <01K3E5Y1VYGQ002XZW@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010509143640.0439bc40@mail.vivacenetworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > From http://www.ietf.org/meetings/0mtg-sites.txt: > > Spring 2002 - 53rd IETF > > March 17-22, 2002 > > Location: Minneapolis, MN > > Host: TBD > We could have wished for nicer weather, but everything else went > pretty well there. I agree. Minneapolis is one of the better venues for IETF meetings and I have no problem with going there again. Ned From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 11 08:01:49 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA05139 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from forest.adb.pl ([195.164.4.254]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA04832 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from piotrr (piotrr.adb.pl [195.164.4.108]) by forest.adb.pl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f4BBoaT03098 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 13:50:38 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c0da10$46f0ec20$6c04a4c3@adb.pl> From: "Piotr Rozycki" To: Subject: Question Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:48:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0DA21.099F88C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0DA21.099F88C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I have encoder *.wav to *.mp4, but I can't play this files, because I = don't have mp4-player.=20 Where can I find player for this files? Thanks and best regards, = Piotr Rozycki --------------------------- P.Rozycki@adb.pl or ziomall@interia.pl ---------------------------=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0DA21.099F88C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
I have encoder *.wav to *.mp4, but I can't play this = files,=20 because I don't have mp4-player. 
Where can I find player for this files? Thanks and = best=20 regards,
        =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20     Piotr Rozycki
---------------------------
P.Rozycki@adb.pl
or
ziomall@interia.pl
--------------------------- 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0DA21.099F88C0-- From owner-ietf-outbound Sat May 12 20:53:28 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id UAA21686 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA21624 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (sdn-ar-001njprinP250.dialsprint.net [158.252.31.12]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01094 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 17:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cook@pop3.netaxs.com Message-Id: Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:25:17 -0400 To: ietf@ietf.org From: Gordon Cook Subject: contents July COOK Report on Ethernet in the first mile Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org ******************************** The COOK Report on Internet July 2001 (Vol. 10, No. 4) ******************************** CONTENTS Tools For Access And Scaling: Ethernet In The First Mile, 10 Gig In Backbone, ENUM In PSTN -- Jonathan Thatcher & Howard Frazier Explain Standards Goals Of EFM, Discuss How Ethernet Is Changing The Access Space Impacting Product Development, Time Lines, & Broadband Infrastructure, pp. 1 -23 The Future Of Telecom As Customer Owned Assets, p. 23 ENUM Pushes Convergence By Facilitating Voip Access To Global PSTN Numbers Rutkowski's Opposition Deflects IETF - ITU Plans Mail List Debate Shows Significance Not Well Understood, pp. 24 - 43 Where ICANN Would Like To Push the Internet, p. 43 End Notes: Dave Hughes Blasts Alaskan Telephone Association Before FCC -- A Look At FCC Resources For Small ISPs -- A Critique Of Tauzin Dingell, pp. 44 - 47 Executive Summary, pp. 48-50 ================== COOK Report Summary or cookrepsum@compucomis.net is a distribution list for the monthly free summary of the COOK Report on Internet. You should expect to receive the monthly summary that is usually between 7 and 15 thousand characters long. You may get one or two other messages a month. This list is intended for distribution and not discussion. Anything posted to the list will bounce to me. I regard this as an experiment and reserve the right at my discretion to change list policy. To subscribe by sending a message to majordomo@compucomis.net with 'subscribe cookrepsum' in the body. To unsubscribe send mail to majordomo@compucomis.net with 'unsubscribe cookrepsum" in the body Full text of executive summary is also available at http://cookreport.com/10.04.shtml -- **************************************************************** The COOK Report on Internet, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA (609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) cook@cookreport.com Index to 9 years of the COOK Report at http://cookreport.com For info on new report go to http://cookreport.com/lightipgige.shtml . 'Light IP & Gig E" serves as tutorial on on going economic model of Internet infrastructure - $375.00 **************************************************************** From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 13 01:15:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA26409 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 01:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from canadian-wellsite.com ([161.184.83.186]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA25471 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: info@canadian-wellsite.com Message-Id: <200105130458.AAA25471@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=200105122041=" To: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailer: 59EDD700.5E34FF65.dd80af7a11551d25148ff62ef928dfa5 Subject: Canadian Oilfield Info X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --=200105122041= Content-Type: text/html;charset=US-ASCII Newsletter
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ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA27351 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 01:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from canadian-wellsite.com ([161.184.83.186]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA25471 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: info@canadian-wellsite.com Message-Id: <200105130458.AAA25471@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=200105122041=" To: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailer: 59EDD700.5E34FF65.dd80af7a11551d25148ff62ef928dfa5 Subject: Canadian Oilfield Info X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --=200105122041= Content-Type: text/html;charset=US-ASCII Newsletter

http://www.canadian-wellsite.com
"Homepage for the Canadian Oilpatch"

* Oilfield Business Directory  * Well Licenses   * Rig Locator  * Daily Canadian Rig Moves
* Road Bans  * Road Reports  * Oilfield & Useful Links  * Government Links * Free Classifieds

When the Canadian Oilpatch needs the services that you offer, they look for you at Canadian Wellsite.

Are you here?

NEW!The Canadian Wellsite Oilfield Directory is now downloadable to your customer’s computer.  This allows them to use the directory anywhere, anytime, without logging onto the Internet.
This is the only Oilfield Directory they will ever need!
Very convenient, very simple and always available.

Click Here to get a copy of our FREE Oilfield Directory!
Click Here to get a copy of our FREE Screensaver!

 Stop in and visit us at GO-EXPO: Gas and Oil Exposition,

June 12 - 14, Stampede Park, Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

Looking for Employment?   Need experienced Employees?  Need to sell your used
Oilfield equipment? Check out the Free Classified section of Canadian Wellsite.
Open to Canadian & International users.

http://www.canadian-wellsite.com/Classified_Ads.htm


If you find Canadian Wellsite's website useful, than your colleagues will find it
useful also! Forward this newsletter to your friends and colleagues
and help us  build our online community!


There are many great Companies out there, but the Oilpatch needed a simple method of being able to locate them.  Canadian Wellsite’s Oilfield Directory and Website provide that method. We have organized the Oilfield service and supply sector to make it very easy for your customers to find your Company, online or offline.

  • We are the most popular Canadian Oilfield site online.
  • Our site and our visitors are very focused on the Canadian Oilpatch.
"Canadian Wellsite, your first stop on the Internet for the Canadian &
International Oilpatch"

http://www.canadian-wellsite.com

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ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA12884 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.goquest.com (IDENT:qmailr@[63.85.32.8]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA12826 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 24770 invoked from network); 13 May 2001 17:16:50 -0000 Received: from www.goquest.com (63.85.32.10) by mail.goquest.com with SMTP; 13 May 2001 17:16:50 -0000 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www.goquest.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA03655; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:15:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:15:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200105131715.MAA03655@www.goquest.com> To: iephie@magic.fr, iesg@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-rip@xylogics.com From: DESKTOPFRiENDS143@aol.com () Subject: (no subject) X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (DESKTOPFRiENDS143@aol.com) on Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 12:15:19 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Hi guys...My name is Bunny Luv and I could forever live and strip on your desktop...HOW ? Download Free VirtuaGirl software now. - It's easy and fast, 100% free, contains 30 different animations and never expires. Imagine a beautiful girl saying hi in the morning, reminding you of your appointments, dancing and stripping for you whenever you ask! - VirtuaGirl is yours. Let her be whatever you want her to be and appear on your your desktop whenever you feel like it!! Tempting, no ?? And there is more... Free Download, Clickhere




--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 13 20:53:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id UAA15787 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 20:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netfacts.pnf.de (netfacts.pnf.de [193.53.23.90]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA15652; Sun, 13 May 2001 20:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by netfacts.pnf.de (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f4E0cAr96231; Mon, 14 May 2001 02:38:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nobody) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 02:38:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200105140038.f4E0cAr96231@netfacts.pnf.de> To: iephie@magic.fr@aol.com, iesg@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-rip@xylogics.com From: FreeOnlineStripr@aol.com () Subject: (no subject) X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Dies ist das Resultat eines Online-Formulares. Es wurde abgesandt von (FreeOnlineStripr@aol.com) am Montag, Mai 14, 2001 um 02:38:09 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Hi guys...My name is Bunny Luv and I could forever live and strip on your desktop...HOW ? Download Free VirtuaGirl software now. - It's easy and fast, 100% free, contains 30 different animations and never expires. Imagine a beautiful girl saying hi in the morning, reminding you of your appointments, dancing and stripping for you whenever you ask! - VirtuaGirl is yours. Let her be whatever you want her to be and appear on your your desktop whenever you feel like it!! Tempting, no ?? And there is more... Free Download, Clickhere









--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 13 21:52:45 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA17174 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-smtpout1.email.verio.net ([129.250.36.41]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA17141 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.250.38.63] (helo=dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net) by dfw-smtpout1.email.verio.net with esmtp id 14z7Ph-0001IV-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 01:44:45 +0000 Received: from [168.191.238.112] (helo=DAN3480) by dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net with asmtp (110190536) id 14z7Pg-0000p4-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 01:44:45 +0000 From: "Dan Kohn" To: Cc: , Subject: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-impp-datetime-01.txt Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:44:26 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c0dc17$6ac6dcf0$70eebfa8@DAN3480> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2511 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id VAA17142 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit says that The grammar element time-second may have the value "60" at the end of June (XXXX-06-30T23:59:60Z) or December (XXXX-12-31T23:59:60Z) if there is a leap second at that time (see Appendix D for a table of leap seconds). At all other times the maximum value of time-second is "59". But, states that: The decision to introduce a leap second in UTC is the responsibility of the International Earth Rotation Service (IERS). According to the CCIR Recommendation, first preference is given to the opportunities at the end of December and June, and second preference to those at the end of March and September. Note that there has not yet been a March or September leap second, but who knows what the future will bring? Otherwise, the draft looks great. - dan -- Dan Kohn -----Original Message----- From: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us [mailto:nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Friday, 2001-05-11 04:13 To: IETF-Announce:; IETF-Announce:; @loki.ietf.org Cc: impp@iastate.edu Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-impp-datetime-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Instant Messaging and Presence Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Date and Time on the Internet: Timestamps Author(s) : G. Klyne, C. Newman Filename : draft-ietf-impp-datetime-01.txt Pages : 16 Date : 10-May-01 This document defines a date and time format for use in Internet protocols that is a profile of the ISO 8601 [ISO8601] standard for representation of dates and times using the Gregorian calendar. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-impp-datetime-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-impp-datetime-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-impp-datetime-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 14 03:23:25 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA04765 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 03:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 21cn.com ([202.104.32.251]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA04674 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 03:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 03:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105140710.DAA04674@ietf.org> Received: from focus_search([202.108.130.197]) by 21cn.com(AIMC 2.9.5.1) with SMTP id jm93affa148; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:06:17 +0800 Sender: focus_search@noneone.nul From: focus_search To: "ietf@ietf.org" X-mailer: jfmailer v1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Subject: ³ÉǧÉÏÍò±¶µÄÌá¸ßÄúµÄËÑË÷ЧÂÊ£¬½¹µãËÑË÷ÍƳöÖÇÄÜ·ÖÀàËÑË÷£¡ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org ÄúºÃ£¡

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From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 14 06:30:33 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA06244 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailtmp2.registeredsite.com ([216.247.127.12]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA06154; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail4.registeredsite.com (IDENT:root@mail4.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.13]) by mailtmp2.registeredsite.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA24018; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:19:44 -0400 Received: from ipswjr0005atl2.usa.prod.interland.net (ipswjr0005atl2.interland.net [64.224.1.18]) by mail4.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4EAJlf02986; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:19:47 -0400 Received: (from usr1109@localhost) by ipswjr0005atl2.usa.prod.interland.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA20760; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:19:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:19:46 -0400 Message-Id: <200105141019.GAA20760@ipswjr0005atl2.usa.prod.interland.net> To: iephie@magic.fr, iesg@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-rip@xylogics.com From: () Subject: dancing stripper on your dekstop free X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by () on Monday, May 14, 2001 at 06:19:46 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Would you like to see images on your desktop of beautiful women of all colors? There is this program called VirtualGirl Their program is called virtuaStripper. You download a FREE program they made. What this does is install their software, and after it is installed you configure the program to whatever girls you want to see STRIP on your desktop. If you would like to receive FREE information about VirtuaGirl please c --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 14 06:40:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA06416 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eis.net ([209.182.0.195]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA06342; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by eis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA26546; Mon, 14 May 2001 03:36:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 03:36:23 -0700 From: Nobody Message-Id: <200105141036.DAA26546@eis.net> To: iephie@magic.fr, iesg@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-rip@xylogics.com Subject: dancing stripper on your dekstop free!!!!!!!! X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: Would you like to see images on your desktop of beautiful women of all colors? There is this program called VirtualGirl Their program is called virtuaStripper. You download a FREE program they made. What this does is install their software, and after it is installed you configure the program to whatever girls you want to see STRIP on your desktop. If you would like to receive FREE information about VirtuaGirl please clickhere or please click any of the virtuaGirl links please. -Happy customer














--------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 14 08:20:09 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA08198 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk ([128.16.5.31]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA07964 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sonic.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:13:14 +0100 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: don't panic. Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:13:14 +0100 Message-ID: <5072.989842394@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Jon Crowcroft X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 14 09:40:25 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA11136 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from meter.eng.uci.edu (root@[128.200.85.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA11108 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ece.uci.edu (vp184043.reshsg.uci.edu [128.195.184.43]) by meter.eng.uci.edu (8.9.3/) with ESMTP id GAA04511; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3AFFE05B.677AD42E@ece.uci.edu> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:40:43 -0700 From: Mahadevan Iyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Crowcroft CC: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: don't panic. References: <5072.989842394@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit missed last chance to see Douglas Adams :( Jon Crowcroft wrote: From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 02:20:48 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id CAA17826 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 02:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dokka.maxware.no (dokka.maxware.no [195.139.236.69]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA17716 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from HALVESTR-W2K.ietf.org (dokka.maxware.no [195.139.236.69]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28059; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:15:02 +0200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010514173641.03c3cde8@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: hta@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:37:05 +0200 To: Gordon Cook From: Harald Alvestrand - IETF Chair Subject: Re: contents July COOK Report on Ethernet in the first mile Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I believe this advertising is inappropriate on the IETF list. Please stop. At 20:25 12.05.2001 -0400, Gordon Cook wrote: >******************************** >The COOK Report on Internet July 2001 (Vol. 10, No. 4) >******************************** > > >CONTENTS > >Tools For Access And Scaling: Ethernet In The First Mile, 10 Gig In >Backbone, ENUM In PSTN -- Jonathan Thatcher & Howard Frazier Explain >Standards Goals Of EFM, Discuss How Ethernet Is Changing The Access Space >Impacting Product Development, Time Lines, & Broadband Infrastructure, pp. >1 -23 > >The Future Of Telecom As Customer Owned Assets, p. 23 > >ENUM Pushes Convergence By Facilitating Voip Access To Global PSTN Numbers >Rutkowski's Opposition Deflects IETF - ITU Plans >Mail List Debate Shows Significance Not Well Understood, pp. 24 - 43 > >Where ICANN Would Like To Push the Internet, p. 43 > >End Notes: Dave Hughes Blasts Alaskan Telephone Association Before FCC >-- A Look At FCC Resources For Small ISPs -- A Critique Of Tauzin >Dingell, pp. 44 - 47 > >Executive Summary, pp. 48-50 > > > >================== > >COOK Report Summary or cookrepsum@compucomis.net is a distribution list >for the monthly free summary of the COOK Report on Internet. >You should expect to receive the monthly summary that is usually between 7 >and 15 thousand characters long. You may get one or two other messages a >month. This list is intended for distribution and not discussion. >Anything posted to the list will bounce to me. I regard this as an >experiment and reserve the right at my discretion to change list policy. > >To subscribe by sending a message to majordomo@compucomis.net with >'subscribe cookrepsum' in the body. To unsubscribe send mail to >majordomo@compucomis.net with 'unsubscribe cookrepsum" in the body > >Full text of executive summary is also available at >http://cookreport.com/10.04.shtml > >-- > > >**************************************************************** >The COOK Report on Internet, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ 08618 USA >(609) 882-2572 (phone & fax) cook@cookreport.com Index to 9 years > of the COOK Report at http://cookreport.com For info on new report >go to http://cookreport.com/lightipgige.shtml . 'Light IP & Gig E" serves >as tutorial on on going economic model of Internet infrastructure - $375.00 >**************************************************************** > >- >This message was passed through ietf_censored@beatles.cselt.it, which >is a sublist of ietf@ietf.org. Not all messages are passed. >Decisions on what to pass are made solely by Maurizio Codogno. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 05:12:01 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA19242 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 05:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from florence.regex.com (qmailr@[208.185.69.254]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA19208 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 05:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 7426 invoked by uid 1169); 15 May 2001 09:05:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 15 May 2001 09:05:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 05:05:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" X-Sender: tjt@florence.regex.com To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: contents July COOK Report on Ethernet in the first mile In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010514173641.03c3cde8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Mon, 14 May 2001, Harald Alvestrand - IETF Chair wrote: > I believe this advertising is inappropriate on the IETF list. > Please stop. > At 20:25 12.05.2001 -0400, Gordon Cook wrote: >>******************************** >>The COOK Report on Internet July 2001 (Vol. 10, No. 4) >>******************************** >> [...] Why? - Too late: after more than 10 years, why stop it now? - That message, "was passed through ietf_censored@beatles.cselt.it" Therefore, it is kosher :^). - Last, how different is that message compared with the monthly ietf_censored posting? from me to you (da da da da da dam dam da :-), -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - VLSM-TJT - http://rms46.vlsm.org - If ain't broke, ain't fix IT;but I'm broke, so IMFix IT! From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 07:13:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id HAA20643 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.157]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA20099 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ix.netcom.com (dal-tx11-30.ix.netcom.com [207.94.124.158]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15474; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B012AD0.18AB81C5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 06:10:40 -0700 From: Jeff Williams Organization: INEGroup Spokesman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: General Assembly of the DNSO CC: ietf@ietf.org, Andy Mueller-Maguhn Subject: DNSO Filter circumvention Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All assembly members, Recently Harald incorrectly reported that I was "Bcc'ing" GA members. This is of course to me terribly laughable and somewhat disappointing coming from the now IETF Chair. One with such supposed technical knowledge should know that there are a number of ways in which Majordomo can be circumvented when filters are set. But it seems that Harald, WXW and Patrick are either unaware of these methods, or are only jerking all of the GA members off. Hence I thought I would post this brief message to make you all aware. Harald, perhaps you should get some special classes from Andy M-M? >;) I really luved Patrick's response! ROFLMAO! Way to go there, Patrick! It seems that Jefsey was correct in his evaluation of you a couple of days ago. Regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!) CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827 Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208 From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 10:01:55 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA27562 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gnat.inet.org ([63.108.254.91]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA27469 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mosquito.inet.org (mosquito [10.30.20.240]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F046E8266E; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:57:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010515095312.00a03c00@10.30.15.2> X-Sender: rja@10.30.15.2 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:55:34 -0400 To: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" From: RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: advertising on official IETF mailing lists Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010514173641.03c3cde8@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org At 05:05 15/05/01, Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim wrote: >Why? It isn't an IETF standards discussion. It is advertising for a commercial product. >- Too late: after more than 10 years, why stop it now? Better late than never. >- That message, "was passed through ietf_censored@beatles.cselt.it" > Therefore, it is kosher :^). Nope. IETF Censored isn't an IETF list, though an IETF list is filtered (by someone other than an IETF officer) into that list. >- Last, how different is that message compared with > the monthly ietf_censored posting? IETF censored is not an IETF official mailing list. IETF Censored is a private mailing list operated out of Italy. Ran From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 11:11:48 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA29702 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mywebspace.org ([208.181.109.222]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA29553 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:59:40 -0700 Message-Id: <200105150759.AA13631700@mywebspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff Prodzinski" Reply-To: To: Subject: I just joined this list...... X-Mailer: X-IMSTrailer: __IMail_5__ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org and I cannot believe the spam that came along with it... Is this normal or did I join at a bad time? __________________________________________________ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 11:31:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA00192 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (root@[128.173.14.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA29951 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (valdis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4FFKDT13909; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:20:13 -0400 Message-Id: <200105151520.f4FFKDT13909@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/19/2001 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: jprodzinski@MYWEBSPACE.ORG Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: I just joined this list...... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 May 2001 07:59:40 PDT." <200105150759.AA13631700@mywebspace.org> X-Url: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ X-Face-Viewer: See ftp://cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/index.html to decode picture X-Face: 34C9$Ewd2zeX+\!i1BA\j{ex+$/V'JBG#;3_noWWYPa"|,I#`R"{n@w>#:{)FXyiAS7(8t( ^*w5O*!8O9YTe[r{e%7(yVRb|qxsRYw`7J!`AM}m_SHaj}f8eb@d^L>BrX7iO[ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-574922501P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:20:13 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --==_Exmh_-574922501P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, 15 May 2001 07:59:40 PDT, Jeff Prodzinski said: > and I cannot believe the spam that came along with it... Is this normal > or did I join at a bad time? You joined at a bad time. Usually this list is full of other recurring threads such as the evils of NAT, copyrights on RFCs, and whether XML is suitable for RFC production. ;) -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech --==_Exmh_-574922501P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Exmh version 2.2 06/16/2000 iQA/AwUBOwFJLXAt5Vm009ewEQJ2sgCgzB6FppKOPOZ/V8WyHPZaEwFcRtoAoLLo GF2dRXE5UBN68axSek9tYLDS =4Qok -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-574922501P-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 19:11:52 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA09119 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web12108.mail.yahoo.com (web12108.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.28]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA08875 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010515230427.76861.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.244.197] by web12108.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:04:27 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:04:27 -0700 (PDT) From: kysi ferul Subject: Microsoft-Starbucks...could be "BIG STAR?" ( A Proposal) To: adam@flounder.net Cc: IETF@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1244242438-989967867=:76182" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --0-1244242438-989967867=:76182 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2002964389-989967867=:76182" --0-2002964389-989967867=:76182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Note: forwarded message attached. Kysi Ferul redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? --0-2002964389-989967867=:76182 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


  Note: forwarded message attached.



 

Kysi Ferul  redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? --0-2002964389-989967867=:76182-- --0-1244242438-989967867=:76182 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com via web12101.mail.yahoo.com; 15 May 2001 09:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1802 (HELO web1802.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.45) by mta130.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2001 09:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26797 invoked by uid 60001); 15 May 2001 16:49:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20010515164955.26796.qmail@web1802.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.196.161] by web1802.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:49:55 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: Microsoft-Starbucks...could be "BIG STAR?" ( A Proposal) To: presidio_officers_club@yahoo.com Cc: redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-150935572-989945395=:25385" Content-Length: 2973 --0-150935572-989945395=:25385 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-150935572-989945395=:25385 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from [209.179.196.161] by web1804.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:48:37 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: Microsoft-Starbucks...could be "BIG STAR?" ( A Proposal) To: security-alert@security.hp.com Cc: security@nanog.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1759810166-989945317=:9227" Content-Length: 2106 --0-1759810166-989945317=:9227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-1759810166-989945317=:9227 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from [209.179.196.161] by web1806.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:46:58 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:46:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: Microsoft-Starbucks...could be "BIG STAR?" ( A Proposal) To: berets@wagged.com Cc: agulick@starbucks.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1276 Casey Farrell, Internet-Mobile-Networking Designer RE: Joint Venturing Microsoft/Starbucks ...'PROPOSAL?' Attn: Beret Severson & Alan Gulick How is this for a great idea....? A CELEBRITY 'TATTLE SHEET'.."BIG STAR!" It would work this way..."STARBUCKS" would have a 'spin-off' label: "316-5742" ('Pronounced' "BIG STAR!") And the COFFEE CUPS ...T-SHIRTS ...ETC which go along with the 'SOCIETY PAGE'...'PEOPLE MAGAZINE' kind-of newspaper 'TRAYLINER'...PLACE-SETTING'...'SHOPPING-BAG'...'COOKIE-BAG'...etc. would have this LOGO...BRAND..... 316 5742 2E6157E2ED 724DEM42K 341N321D6E 15L4ND, W45H1N67ON Get it? That would be the COMBINATION of STARBUCKS & MICROSOFT as a SPORTSWEAR...PUBLISHING...FOOD...ENTERTAINMENT..etc. Business with it's own DOT COM e-biz 1-800-/10/10..#? ANYWAY...PLease give me a callor drop me a line for details! Thank you, Casey Farrell tel: 415/664-2489 316 5742 Copyright 1987 All Rights Reserved This Letter & Contents Copyright 2001 Casey Farrell ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-1759810166-989945317=:9227-- --0-150935572-989945395=:25385-- --0-1244242438-989967867=:76182-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 19:21:38 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA09394 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web12105.mail.yahoo.com (web12105.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.25]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA09329 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010515231356.64879.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.244.197] by web12105.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:13:56 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:13:56 -0700 (PDT) From: kysi ferul Subject: RE: Off Topic; "Seven Daze in May" To: nanog@merit.edu Cc: IETF@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1312380565-989968436=:63549" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --0-1312380565-989968436=:63549 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1090050592-989968436=:63549" --0-1090050592-989968436=:63549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Note: forwarded message attached. Kysi Ferul redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? --0-1090050592-989968436=:63549 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 

  Note: forwarded message attached.



 

Kysi Ferul  redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? --0-1090050592-989968436=:63549-- --0-1312380565-989968436=:63549 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com via web12107.mail.yahoo.com; 15 May 2001 15:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1805 (HELO web1805.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.48) by mta419.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2001 15:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 279 invoked by uid 60001); 15 May 2001 22:57:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20010515225707.278.qmail@web1805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.244.197] by web1805.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:57:07 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:57:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: RE: Your Story: "Next Star?" May 7, 2001 Interactive Week To: redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com Cc: kaliforniu_star@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1654450577-989967427=:29166" Content-Length: 4846 --0-1654450577-989967427=:29166 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-1654450577-989967427=:29166 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from [209.179.244.197] by web1806.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:56:12 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:56:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: RE: Your Story: "Next Star?" May 7, 2001 Interactive Week To: bill_scanlon@ziffdavis.com Cc: lisa_kempf@ziffdavis.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1472850900-989967372=:27778" Content-Length: 3972 --0-1472850900-989967372=:27778 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear Mr. Scanlon, How is this for a 'next'...star..."BIG STAR!" Put to Seattle-based giants together...in a INTERNET MARKET ...and you got the best of both worlds...the 'Suit & Bobo' Digital Wireless Economy!"PDAs get PAID?" Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-1472850900-989967372=:27778 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from [209.179.244.197] by web1803.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:46:46 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:46:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: Microsoft-Starbucks...could be "BIG STAR?" ( A Proposal) To: info@siennaventures.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-133078390-989966806=:29859" Content-Length: 2899 --0-133078390-989966806=:29859 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-133078390-989966806=:29859 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: oieau@yahoo.com via web1806; 15 May 2001 15:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1803 (HELO web1803.mail.yahoo.com) (128.11.23.46) by mta496.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 May 2001 15:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 104 invoked by uid 60001); 15 May 2001 22:44:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20010515224418.103.qmail@web1803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.244.197] by web1803.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:44:18 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Casey Farrell Subject: Re: Microsoft-Starbucks...could be "BIG STAR?" ( A Proposal) To: Casey Farrell , berets@wagged.com Cc: agulick@starbucks.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1680 --- Casey Farrell wrote: > Casey Farrell, Internet-Mobile-Networking Designer > > RE: Joint Venturing Microsoft/Starbucks > ...'PROPOSAL?' > > Attn: Beret Severson & Alan Gulick > > How is this for a great idea....? > > A CELEBRITY 'TATTLE SHEET'.."BIG STAR!" > > It would work this way..."STARBUCKS" would have a > 'spin-off' label: "316-5742" ('Pronounced' "BIG > STAR!") > > And the COFFEE CUPS ...T-SHIRTS ...ETC which go > along > with the 'SOCIETY PAGE'...'PEOPLE MAGAZINE' kind-of > newspaper > 'TRAYLINER'...PLACE-SETTING'...'SHOPPING-BAG'...'COOKIE-BAG'...etc. > would have this LOGO...BRAND..... > > 316 5742 > > 2E6157E2ED 724DEM42K > > 341N321D6E 15L4ND, W45H1N67ON > > Get it? That would be the COMBINATION of STARBUCKS > & > MICROSOFT as a > SPORTSWEAR...PUBLISHING...FOOD...ENTERTAINMENT..etc. > Business with it's own DOT COM e-biz > 1-800-/10/10..#? > > ANYWAY...PLease give me a callor drop me a line > for > details! Thank you, > > Casey Farrell > > tel: 415/664-2489 > > 316 5742 Copyright 1987 > > All Rights Reserved > > This Letter & Contents Copyright 2001 Casey Farrell > > > > > ===== > > Casey Farrell; > Information Designer > San Francisco > > oieau@yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great > prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > ===== Casey Farrell; Information Designer San Francisco oieau@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --0-133078390-989966806=:29859-- --0-1472850900-989967372=:27778-- --0-1654450577-989967427=:29166-- --0-1312380565-989968436=:63549-- From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 22:01:46 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA12098 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from florence.regex.com (qmailr@florence.regex.com [208.185.69.254]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA12062 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 16992 invoked by uid 1169); 16 May 2001 01:58:43 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 16 May 2001 01:58:43 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:58:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" X-Sender: tjt@florence.regex.com To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: advertising on official IETF mailing lists In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010515095312.00a03c00@10.30.15.2> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Hello: First of all, thank you for reply. And by the way, you do not need to send me an extra copy of your email (since I am on the IETF list). Second, I get more annoyed when receive: - extra copies of a same email - "I am out of office" messages (guess: how many will I receive soon...). - be rich in 7 days adv. - Goldstein's tonner supply adv; compared to a single predictable (filterable) "monthly report" posting. Third, but it should not be considered as supporting that monthly report post. I was questioning the reason for stopping it. On Tue, 15 May 2001, RJ Atkinson wrote: >>- That message, "was passed through ietf_censored@beatles.cselt.it" >> Therefore, it is kosher :^). > Nope. IETF Censored isn't an IETF list, though an IETF list > is filtered (by someone other than an IETF officer) into that list. So, why had that "IETF officer" not censored it until recently? >>- Last, how different is that message compared with >> the monthly ietf_censored posting? > > IETF censored is not an IETF official mailing list. > IETF Censored is a private mailing list operated out of Italy. Yes, but it is allowed to do a montly posting to the IETF list? Forth, we can work it out... we can work out... Life is very short, and there is no time for fussing and fighting my friend... best regards, -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - VLSM-TJT - http://rms46.vlsm.org - If ain't broke, ain't fix IT;but I'm broke, so IMFix IT! From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 15 22:51:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA13910 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from worldses.org ([194.219.139.197]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA13839 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105160242.WAA13839@ietf.org> From: "WSES MIV: Official News Letter for MULTIMEDIA, INTERNET, VIDEO, SIGNAL AND IMAGE PROCESSING, ROBOTICS, DISTANCE LEARNING, COMMUNICATIONS" To: Subject: WSES MIV: Official WSES News Letter for MULTIMEDIA, INTERNET, VIDEO, SIGNAL AND IMAGE PROCESSING ROBOTICS, DISTANCE LEARNING, COMMUNICATIONS Sender: "WSES MIV: Official News Letter for MULTIMEDIA, INTERNET, VIDEO, SIGNAL AND IMAGE PROCESSING, ROBOTICS, DISTANCE LEARNING, COMMUNICATIONS" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 05:41:49 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ********************************************************************** Please, do not reply to: none_reply@worldses.org, but see details and other useful advice at the end of this message. If you want to contact us, see the email address inside the context of the newsletter ********************************************************************** ****** CONTENTS: IN THIS ISSUE, READ 1) INVITATION TO ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR LIST! (see below) 2) HOW TO PROMOTE AN ANNOUNCEMENT FOR A NEW FACULTY, POST-DOCTORAL, RESEARCH POSITION BY THIS NEWS LETTER (see below) ****** 1) INVITATION TO ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR LIST! (if you are interested send a message to : malta2001@worldses.org I have the honor to invite each of you to submit an Invited Paper in the * WSES International Conference: SPEECH, SIGNAL AND IMAGE PROCESSING 2001 (SSIP 2001) (technical co-sponsored by IEEE) * WSES International Conference: MULTIMEDIA, INTERNET, VIDEO TECHNOLOGIES 2001 (MIV 2001) (technical co-sponsored by IEEE) * WSES International Conference: SIMULATION 2001 (SIM 2001) (technical co-sponsored by IEEE) * WSES International Conference: ROBOTICS, DISTANCE LEARNING AND INTELLIGENT COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS 2001 (RODLICS 2001), (technical co-sponsored by IEEE) Malta, September 1-6, 2001 NEW DOLMEN RESORT HOTEL (Luxurious Conference Canter and Casino) http://www.worldses.org/wses/conferences/malta These unique four conferences will take place in the exquisit, fascinating and historic island of MALTA, in September 1-6, 2001 A prolongation was given, after several requests from WSES and IEEE members and volunteers: DEADLINE FOR PAPER SUBMISSION: JUNE 30, 2001. NOTIFICATION OF ACCEPTANCE/REJECTION: One month after the submission of your paper (maximum) (we can inform you the recommendation of the reviewers 30 days after your submission!) Also, if you would like, we could send an official letter to you (via regular mail) in order to find possible financial support for your trip from your department (as Invited Lecturer) Also, if you want to organize a Session, -ATTENTION: in this case your name will be mentioned in the proceedings as Associate Editor-, please, collect and review at least 8-10 papers and then send them to us. Of course, you could send me now the title of your paper ALL THE ACCEPTED PAPERS will be published: 1)in the CD-ROM Proceedings (with Search Facilities and Page Numbering) as well as 2)in the Electrical and Computer Engineering International Reference Book Series of WSES PRESS as Post-Conference Books (Hard cover, velvet paper, international circulation). These will be different International Editions (with different ISBN). This material will be ready at the opening of the Multiconference and will be distributed to the participants. Also SPECIAL ISSUES have been scheduled for the journals : (These special issues will contain only selected papers, not all the papers) INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF COMPUTER RESEARCH (IJCR) INFORMATICA INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF COMMUNICATIONS AND NETWORKING NEURAL NETWORKS WORLD INTERNATIONAL SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE (with many IEEE Fellow Members) Find in the WEB. TOPICS: See the web More informations: Send a message to malta2001@worldses.org About MALTA ISLAND ("The Island of Knights") Malta, a Jewel in the Mediterranean. With it's warm summers and mild winters, surrounded by blue sea, Malta is indead a beautiful country. It has a rich history, holding a strategic position in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. Malta, the beautiful island of the Knights, is famous for its sun, sea, and sand. An ideal vacation spot fascinating, not only for its natural beauty, but also for its archeological treasures. Malta is the island where the Apostle Paul was shipwrecked off in A.D 60 what is today known as St. Paul's Bay, place where the conference will be held. Malta is also well known for its hospitality to visitors. The blue sea, warm sunshine, and rich archaeological heritage dating back over seven millennia provide an interesting backdrop to the conference. The Maltese Archipelago, consisting of Malta, Gozo, Comino and two other uninhabited islands, is situated almost at the center of the Mediterranean. Its geographical position has always attracted the attention of maritime powers, thus giving it a wealth of history out of proportion to its diminutive size. The first known inhabitants were Sicilian Neolithic farmers (c. 4000 B.C.). Romans, Greeks (Byzantines), Arabs, Spanish, Germans, French, English has the island under their occupation in various periods of History. The epic defense of the Islands during World War II is well remembered, and it was for this reason that this small nation was awarded the George Cross. The Islands achieved independence in 1964 and in 1974 became a Republic within the British Commonwealth. Modern Malta combines the cosmopolitan character of a modern island with the picturesque architecture of medieval buildings and decorative shops. HERE IS THE STATISTICS FROM the previous WSES Conference ************************************************** STATISTICS: The previous Conference was a great success. Here is the statistics from the e-messages that we received. ORGANIZATION: "Excellent" 92.4%, "Very Good" 0.8% SCIENTIFIC PART: "Excellent" 95%, "Very Good" 5%, PROCEEDINGS: "Excellent" 98%, "Very Good" 1%, "Good" 1% POST-CONFERENCE BOOKS: "Excellent" 100%, SOCIAL PART: "Excellent" 96.4%, "Very Good" 2.7% BANQUET: "Excellent" 100% Regards K.Papanikolaou (on behalf of the Chair of the Organ.Committee) Contact me at: malta2001@worldses.org 2) HOW TO PROMOTE AN ANNOUNCEMENT FOR A NEW FACULTY, POST-DOCTORAL, RESEARCH POSITION BY THIS NEWS LETTER (new announcements for new faculty, post-doctoral, research positions related to WSES MIV NEWSLETTER (Multimedia, Internet, Video, Signal and Image Processing, Robotics, Distance Learning, Communications) must be sent via our server: http://www.worldses.org the Subject must be "New Announcement") THESE NEW FACULTY POST-DOCTORAL, RESEARCH POSITIONS WILL BE SENT TO YOU IN THE NEXT E-RELEASE OF THIS NEWS LETTER END------------------------------------------------------------------ This News Letter informs you for New Faculty Positions, for Conference Announcements, Workshop Announcements, Short Courses Announcements, Announcements for New Books and Journals Announcements for Special Issues in Journals, Announcements for Special Sessions in Conferences, for Post-Doctoral Positions and other relevant topics. HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: Forward this News letter to your friends and colleagues encouraging them to subscribe via: http://www.worldses.org (completing a relevant web form). HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (1st method) To unsubscribe, send us a message to: remove_miv@worldses.org INCLUDING your address or addresses from which you received this NEWS LETTER! (The address or addresses in the To: of the present message). No matter from which address you will send the message. Just tell us the address that you have seen in the To: of our message and we will remove it. Please, send it to remove_miv@worldses.org HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE (2nd method) You can also unsubscribe visiting http://www.worldses.org/wses/unsubscribe.htm select WSES MIV NEWSLETTER and follow the instructions ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 16 17:11:28 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA19301 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rock.gic.gi.com ([198.102.88.4]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA19177 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by rock.gic.gi.com; id QAA04936; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:53:49 -0400 Received: from htsmtp.gic.gi.com(168.84.143.23) by rock.gic.gi.com via smap (V5.0) id xma004861; Wed, 16 May 01 16:53:28 -0400 Received: from xchsrv0.gic.gi.com (xchsrv0.gic.gi.com [168.84.176.64]) by HtSMTP.GIC.GI.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #38904) with ESMTP id <01K3N0RBDR1C0006DR@HtSMTP.GIC.GI.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:06:57 -0400 Received: by xchsrv0.gic.gi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2T8K2QZG>; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:04:03 -0400 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:03:50 -0400 From: "Vetter, Rick (HT-EX)" Subject: A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers To: "'ietf@ietf.org'" Message-id: <417C01CA74C0D211B3FE02204840B14A05A87D3A@xchsrv4.gic.gi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4B.B4E42D20" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4B.B4E42D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could someone send me the link for the test implementation of RFC 1149 = (A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers) that = was (I am pretty sure) posted here a short time ago? I seem to have deleted = it. =20 Rick Vetter Motorola Broadband Communications (formerly =AAGeneral Instrument) * 215 323 2383 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4B.B4E42D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian = Carriers

Could someone send me the link for the = test implementation of RFC 1149 (A Standard for the Transmission of IP = Datagrams on Avian Carriers) that was (I am pretty sure) posted here a = short time ago? I seem to have deleted it.

 


Rick Vetter
Motorola Broadband = Communications
(formerly =AAGeneral Instrument)
( 215 323 2383


------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4B.B4E42D20-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 16 20:18:56 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id UAA21595 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web12106.mail.yahoo.com (web12106.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.26]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA21466 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010517000919.21658.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.244.42] by web12106.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:09:19 PDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:09:19 -0700 (PDT) From: kysi ferul Subject: Gov. can make NO law...to "DEPUTISE" 'asian-americans'! To: nanog@merit.edu Cc: IETF@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1198228985-990058159=:20420" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --0-1198228985-990058159=:20420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Because San Francisco is OVERFULL with SODOMITES...there was seen to be a need to draw POLITICAL SAFETY from first 'illegal aliens'...but that very quickly became actual FOREIGN AGENTS! The 'hate laws' etc...are simple "RE-WRITES" of already occurring situational role-reversals...whereby "AFRICAN-AMERICANS" (WHo REALLY ARE...Americans!) are being CAJOLED and BAMBOOZLED out of there meager inheritence in this country...by the BLACKSPOITATION EXPERTS in DC...who have this down to a fine art...they'll give ONE basketball player 190 MILLION DOLLARS in order to take "ALL THE MONEY" away from 200,000 other Negro-race Americans! So...while they have BLACKS "BURNIN' the CITIES"...they have RED CHINESE elsewhere... "makin' with the NIGGER Jokes!" See...the template is "WHIITES DON'T RESPECT BLACKS ENOUGH"...RIght? So, then it is "Whites down respect ASIANS enough" Right? WELL HOLD ON ONE DAMN MINUTE! First...what African-American is going to BURN CLEVELAND to the GROUND because WHITE AMERICA isn't loving Kenya enough? Huh? And then are there going to be "KANGAROO COURTS" where Americans of European ancestory will be tried for "NOT ACTING GENTLEMANLY IN REGARDS TO ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG MURDERS FROM NIGERIA..." Nope! NO CANNED DOO!" See...THAT is what the COMMUNIST CHINESE have going for them in SAN FANCISCO...where HOMOSEXUAL MALES from ALL OVER the WORLD are trying to WREAK THEIR OWN SPECIAL VENGENCE on Mankind...(AIDS, S&M Murders, what have you!) The American Chinese who have never really been allowed "OUT of he BOX" so-to-say in this country are being led into a DOUBLE-BIND by the "GAYS" and COMMUNIST CHINESE INFILTRATORS! See, the history of "why" Chinese never were in the mix that well is not becuase of numbers...but ATTITUDES...and CULTURAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS..which sadl, will be repeated when ONCE AGAIN the CHINESE-AMERICANS assist their RACE over their NATION...and are probably going to be BANNED for ANOTHE R80-YEARS for LYING! YEs...they wouldn't 'own-up' about the PHONEY SON thing! (FOSTERAGE!) All they had to do was tell the truth! Now the US GOV "perps' and CITY HALL PERPS and STATE of CAL PERPS are working with the RED CHINESE by starting to institute WITCH HUNTS bu AMERICAN CHINESE looking for "WHITES" who "NOTICED" that 90% of the 'asians' in this COUNTRY...are neither 'asian'...that is they is ALL COMMUNIST MAINLAND RED CHINESE...and NONE CAN BE OR BECOME US CITIZENS! Because they are as NORTH KOREANS to us! (COLD WAR!) The PROVACATIVE BEHAVIOUR THE RED CHINESE EXHIBIT IS THEIR WAY OF "ACTING OUT" (AND "UP") AS THEY WANT THE OBVIOUSLY DISFUNCTIONAL AMERICAN CHINESE TO REACT....it is all part of the game plan..."MONKEY SEE...MONKEY DO!" The very idea that European Americans are some how 'racist' is REDICULOUS...history shows that WHITE PEOPLE have on the WHOLE shown TOLERANCE to a degree that it has affected their very survival at timnes (as in South Africa...a NON-NEGRO COUNTRY up to 1871! Somehting no one puts in the books! Today members of Britains elite families wants to "CONSOLIDATE" the LAND OWNERSHIP by MURDERING off the DUTCH SETTLERS! Which slow brutalisation has been in effect sincew the BOER WAR! Unbeknownst to IDIOT AMERICAN SCHOOL TEACHER..."Apartheid was neither Dutch...nor Old...it was introduced into SOUTH AFRICA as LAW after...WWII! In the 1950's! By none other than BRITISH-PASSPORTED...DIAMOND & GOLD MINING EURO-JEWS! Yes! The BOERS are farmers...that is what "BOER" 'means' in DUTCH! They had NO NEED of ZULU SLAVES from NIGERIA brought into the country as BRITISH trained & backed MERCENARIES...in 1871! ONLY MINING HAS SUCH A REQUIREMENT! Now....the BRITISH "Royals" (acually 'the WINDSORS' are "ROGUE ROYALS FROM GERMANY!"..."1776" and all that! PLEASE SEE: "THE DECLARAATION OF INDEPENDENCE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"..."King George is a USURPER..."etc. "They have brought over ILLEGAL ALIEN ARMIES AND FOREIGN SPIES!" So we have the HARRASSING and MURDER of FARMERS....in South Africa who have ONLY FED AND CLOTHED these ZULUS! That is all! Now ALL wil starve...but the BLOODY BRITISH will get the land! OUR QUESTION:Are "CHINESE-AEMRICANS" more loyal to a "RED CHINESE 'British Possession...HONG KONG" than to their own NATIVE AMERICA? WE NEED LOYALTY OATHS! Kysi Ferul redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? --0-1198228985-990058159=:20420 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Because San Francisco is OVERFULL with SODOMITES...there was seen to be a need to draw POLITICAL SAFETY from first 'illegal aliens'...but that very quickly became actual FOREIGN AGENTS!



  The 'hate laws' etc...are simple "RE-WRITES" of already occurring



situational role-reversals...whereby "AFRICAN-AMERICANS" (WHo REALLY ARE...Americans!) are being CAJOLED and BAMBOOZLED out of there meager inheritence in this country...by the BLACKSPOITATION EXPERTS in DC...who have this down to a fine art...they'll give ONE basketball player 190 MILLION DOLLARS in order to take "ALL THE MONEY" away from 200,000 other Negro-race Americans!  So...while they have BLACKS "BURNIN' the CITIES"...they have RED CHINESE elsewhere... "makin' with the NIGGER Jokes!" See...the template is "WHIITES DON'T RESPECT BLACKS ENOUGH"...RIght? So, then it is "Whites down respect ASIANS enough" Right? WELL HOLD ON ONE DAMN MINUTE! First...what African-American is going to BURN CLEVELAND to the GROUND because WHITE AMERICA isn't loving Kenya enough? Huh? And then are there going to be "KANGAROO COURTS" where Americans of European ancestory will be tried for "NOT ACTING GENTLEMANLY IN REGARDS TO ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG MURDERS FROM NIGERIA..." Nope! NO CANNED DOO!" See...THAT is what the COMMUNIST CHINESE have going for them in SAN FANCISCO...where HOMOSEXUAL MALES from ALL OVER the WORLD are trying to WREAK THEIR OWN SPECIAL VENGENCE on Mankind...(AIDS, S&M Murders, what have you!) The



American Chinese who have never really been allowed "OUT of he BOX" so-to-say in this country are being led into a DOUBLE-BIND



by the "GAYS" and COMMUNIST CHINESE INFILTRATORS! See, the history of "why" Chinese never were in the mix that well is not becuase of numbers...but ATTITUDES...and CULTURAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS..which sadl, will be repeated when ONCE AGAIN the CHINESE-AMERICANS assist their RACE over their NATION...and are probably going to be BANNED for ANOTHE R80-YEARS for LYING! YEs...they wouldn't 'own-up' about the PHONEY SON thing! (FOSTERAGE!) All they had to do was tell the truth! Now the US GOV "perps' and CITY HALL PERPS and STATE of CAL PERPS are working with the RED CHINESE by starting to institute


WITCH HUNTS bu AMERICAN CHINESE looking for "WHITES" who "NOTICED" that 90% of the 'asians' in this COUNTRY...are neither 'asian'...that is they is ALL COMMUNIST MAINLAND RED CHINESE...and NONE CAN BE OR BECOME US CITIZENS! Because they are as NORTH KOREANS to us! (COLD WAR!) The PROVACATIVE BEHAVIOUR THE RED CHINESE EXHIBIT IS THEIR WAY OF "ACTING OUT" (AND "UP") AS THEY WANT THE OBVIOUSLY DISFUNCTIONAL AMERICAN CHINESE TO REACT....it is all part of the game plan..."MONKEY SEE...MONKEY DO!"  The very idea that European Americans are some how 'racist' is REDICULOUS...history shows that WHITE PEOPLE have on the WHOLE shown TOLERANCE to a degree that it has affected their very survival at timnes (as in South Africa...a NON-NEGRO COUNTRY up to 1871! Somehting no one puts in the books! Today members of Britains elite families wants to "CONSOLIDATE" the LAND OWNERSHIP by MURDERING off the DUTCH SETTLERS!


Which slow brutalisation has been in effect sincew the BOER WAR!


Unbeknownst to IDIOT AMERICAN SCHOOL TEACHER..."Apartheid was neither Dutch...nor Old...it was introduced into SOUTH AFRICA as LAW after...WWII! In the 1950's! By none other than BRITISH-PASSPORTED...DIAMOND & GOLD MINING EURO-JEWS! Yes! The BOERS are farmers...that is what "BOER" 'means' in DUTCH!


They had NO NEED of ZULU SLAVES from NIGERIA brought into the country as BRITISH trained & backed MERCENARIES...in 1871!


ONLY MINING HAS SUCH A REQUIREMENT! Now....the BRITISH


"Royals" (acually 'the WINDSORS'  are "ROGUE ROYALS FROM GERMANY!"..."1776" and all that! PLEASE SEE: "THE DECLARAATION OF INDEPENDENCE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"..."King George is a USURPER..."etc. "They have brought over ILLEGAL ALIEN ARMIES AND FOREIGN SPIES!"

So we have the HARRASSING and MURDER of FARMERS....in South Africa who have ONLY FED AND CLOTHED these ZULUS!

That is all! Now ALL wil starve...but the BLOODY BRITISH will get the land! OUR QUESTION:Are "CHINESE-AEMRICANS" more loyal to a "RED CHINESE 'British Possession...HONG KONG" than to their own NATIVE AMERICA? WE NEED LOYALTY OATHS!


 



 

Kysi Ferul  redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? --0-1198228985-990058159=:20420-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 16 21:48:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA23351 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from f15eagle.adc-net.net ([63.216.45.34]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA23281 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a10warthog2 ([63.216.45.51]) by f15eagle.adc-net.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Wed, 16 May 2001 20:41:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c0de72$4bf83690$332dd83f@adcnet.net> Reply-To: "Berj" From: "Berj" To: "kysi ferul" , Cc: References: <20010517000919.21658.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Gov. can make NO law...to "DEPUTISE" 'asian-americans'! Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:40:04 -0500 Organization: Application Development Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0DE48.62FF1630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2001 01:41:54.0510 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D53EEE0:01C0DE72] X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0DE48.62FF1630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Kysi, Please keep the Ferrule over your political ideas unless they are tech = related... Thanks ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kysi ferul=20 To: nanog@merit.edu=20 Cc: IETF@ietf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Gov. can make NO law...to "DEPUTISE" 'asian-americans'! Because San Francisco is OVERFULL with SODOMITES...there was seen to = be a need to draw POLITICAL SAFETY from first 'illegal aliens'...but = that very quickly became actual FOREIGN AGENTS!=20 The 'hate laws' etc...are simple "RE-WRITES" of already occurring=20 situational role-reversals...whereby "AFRICAN-AMERICANS" (WHo REALLY = ARE...Americans!) are being CAJOLED and BAMBOOZLED out of there meager = inheritence in this country...by the BLACKSPOITATION EXPERTS in DC...who = have this down to a fine art...they'll give ONE basketball player 190 = MILLION DOLLARS in order to take "ALL THE MONEY" away from 200,000 other = Negro-race Americans! So...while they have BLACKS "BURNIN' the = CITIES"...they have RED CHINESE elsewhere... "makin' with the NIGGER = Jokes!" See...the template is "WHIITES DON'T RESPECT BLACKS = ENOUGH"...RIght? So, then it is "Whites down respect ASIANS enough" = Right? WELL HOLD ON ONE DAMN MINUTE! First...what African-American is = going to BURN CLEVELAND to the GROUND because WHITE AMERICA isn't loving = Kenya enough? Huh? And then are there going to be "KANGAROO COURTS" = where Americans of European ancestory will be tried for "NOT ACTING = GENTLEMANLY IN REGARDS TO ILLEGAL ALIEN DRUG MURDERS FROM NI! GERIA..." = Nope! NO CANNED DOO!" See...THAT is what the COMMUNIST CHINESE have = going for them in SAN FANCISCO...where HOMOSEXUAL MALES from ALL OVER = the WORLD are trying to WREAK THEIR OWN SPECIAL VENGENCE on = Mankind...(AIDS, S&M Murders, what have you!) The=20 American Chinese who have never really been allowed "OUT of he BOX" = so-to-say in this country are being led into a DOUBLE-BIND by the "GAYS" and COMMUNIST CHINESE INFILTRATORS! See, the history of = "why" Chinese never were in the mix that well is not becuase of = numbers...but ATTITUDES...and CULTURAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS..which sadl, = will be repeated when ONCE AGAIN the CHINESE-AMERICANS assist their RACE = over their NATION...and are probably going to be BANNED for ANOTHE = R80-YEARS for LYING! YEs...they wouldn't 'own-up' about the PHONEY SON = thing! (FOSTERAGE!) All they had to do was tell the truth! Now the US = GOV "perps' and CITY HALL PERPS and STATE of CAL PERPS are working with = the RED CHINESE by starting to institute=20 WITCH HUNTS bu AMERICAN CHINESE looking for "WHITES" who "NOTICED" = that 90% of the 'asians' in this COUNTRY...are neither 'asian'...that is = they is ALL COMMUNIST MAINLAND RED CHINESE...and NONE CAN BE OR BECOME = US CITIZENS! Because they are as NORTH KOREANS to us! (COLD WAR!) The = PROVACATIVE BEHAVIOUR THE RED CHINESE EXHIBIT IS THEIR WAY OF "ACTING = OUT" (AND "UP") AS THEY WANT THE OBVIOUSLY DISFUNCTIONAL AMERICAN = CHINESE TO REACT....it is all part of the game plan..."MONKEY = SEE...MONKEY DO!" The very idea that European Americans are some how = 'racist' is REDICULOUS...history shows that WHITE PEOPLE have on the = WHOLE shown TOLERANCE to a degree that it has affected their very = survival at timnes (as in South Africa...a NON-NEGRO COUNTRY up to 1871! = Somehting no one puts in the books! Today members of Britains elite = families wants to "CONSOLIDATE" the LAND OWNERSHIP by MURDERING off the = DUTCH SETTLERS!=20 Which slow brutalisation has been in effect sincew the BOER WAR!=20 Unbeknownst to IDIOT AMERICAN SCHOOL TEACHER..."Apartheid was neither = Dutch...nor Old...it was introduced into SOUTH AFRICA as LAW = after...WWII! In the 1950's! By none other than = BRITISH-PASSPORTED...DIAMOND & GOLD MINING EURO-JEWS! Yes! The BOERS are = farmers...that is what "BOER" 'means' in DUTCH!=20 They had NO NEED of ZULU SLAVES from NIGERIA brought into the country = as BRITISH trained & backed MERCENARIES...in 1871!=20 ONLY MINING HAS SUCH A REQUIREMENT! Now....the BRITISH "Royals" (acually 'the WINDSORS' are "ROGUE ROYALS FROM = GERMANY!"..."1776" and all that! PLEASE SEE: "THE DECLARAATION OF = INDEPENDENCE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"..."King George is a = USURPER..."etc. "They have brought over ILLEGAL ALIEN ARMIES AND FOREIGN = SPIES!" So we have the HARRASSING and MURDER of FARMERS....in South Africa who = have ONLY FED AND CLOTHED these ZULUS!=20 That is all! Now ALL wil starve...but the BLOODY BRITISH will get the = land! OUR QUESTION:Are "CHINESE-AEMRICANS" more loyal to a "RED CHINESE = 'British Possession...HONG KONG" than to their own NATIVE AMERICA? WE = NEED LOYALTY OATHS!=20 Kysi Ferul redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell? ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0DE48.62FF1630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Kysi,
 
Please keep the Ferrule over your = political ideas=20 unless they are tech related...
 
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kysi ferul
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 = 7:09=20 PM
Subject: Gov. can make NO = law...to=20 "DEPUTISE" 'asian-americans'!

Because San Francisco is OVERFULL with SODOMITES...there was seen = to be a=20 need to draw POLITICAL SAFETY from first 'illegal aliens'...but that = very=20 quickly became actual FOREIGN AGENTS!



  The 'hate laws' etc...are simple "RE-WRITES" of already = occurring=20



situational role-reversals...whereby "AFRICAN-AMERICANS" (WHo = REALLY=20 ARE...Americans!) are being CAJOLED and BAMBOOZLED out of there meager = inheritence in this country...by the BLACKSPOITATION EXPERTS in = DC...who have=20 this down to a fine art...they'll give ONE basketball player 190 = MILLION=20 DOLLARS in order to take "ALL THE MONEY" away from = 200,000=20 other Negro-race Americans!  So...while they have BLACKS=20 "BURNIN' the CITIES"...they have RED CHINESE elsewhere... "makin' = with=20 the NIGGER Jokes!" See...the template is "WHIITES DON'T RESPECT BLACKS = ENOUGH"...RIght? So, then it is "Whites down respect ASIANS enough" = Right?=20 WELL HOLD ON ONE DAMN MINUTE! First...what African-American is going = to BURN=20 CLEVELAND to the GROUND because WHITE AMERICA isn't loving Kenya = enough? Huh?=20 And then are there going to be "KANGAROO COURTS" where Americans of = European=20 ancestory will be tried for "NOT ACTING GENTLEMANLY IN REGARDS TO = ILLEGAL=20 ALIEN DRUG MURDERS FROM NI! GERIA..." Nope! NO CANNED DOO!" See...THAT = is what=20 the COMMUNIST CHINESE have going for them in SAN FANCISCO...where = HOMOSEXUAL=20 MALES from ALL OVER the WORLD are trying to WREAK THEIR OWN SPECIAL = VENGENCE=20 on Mankind...(AIDS, S&M Murders, what have you!) The



American Chinese who have never really been allowed "OUT = of he=20 BOX" so-to-say in this country are being led into a = DOUBLE-BIND



by the "GAYS" and COMMUNIST CHINESE INFILTRATORS! See, the history = of "why"=20 Chinese never were in the mix that well is not becuase of = numbers...but=20 ATTITUDES...and CULTURAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS..which sadl, will be = repeated when=20 ONCE AGAIN the CHINESE-AMERICANS assist their RACE over their = NATION...and are=20 probably going to be BANNED for ANOTHE R80-YEARS for LYING! YEs...they = wouldn't 'own-up' about the PHONEY SON thing! (FOSTERAGE!) All they = had to do=20 was tell the truth! Now the US GOV "perps' and CITY HALL PERPS and = STATE of=20 CAL PERPS are working with the RED CHINESE by starting to institute =


WITCH HUNTS bu AMERICAN CHINESE looking for "WHITES" who "NOTICED" = that 90%=20 of the 'asians' in this COUNTRY...are neither 'asian'...that is they = is ALL=20 COMMUNIST MAINLAND RED CHINESE...and NONE CAN BE OR BECOME US = CITIZENS!=20 Because they are as NORTH KOREANS to us! (COLD WAR!) The = PROVACATIVE=20 BEHAVIOUR THE RED CHINESE EXHIBIT IS THEIR WAY OF "ACTING OUT" (AND = "UP") AS=20 THEY WANT THE OBVIOUSLY DISFUNCTIONAL AMERICAN CHINESE TO REACT....it = is all=20 part of the game plan..."MONKEY SEE...MONKEY DO!"  The very idea = that=20 European Americans are some how 'racist' is REDICULOUS...history shows = that=20 WHITE PEOPLE have on the WHOLE shown TOLERANCE to a degree that it has = affected their very survival at timnes (as in South Africa...a = NON-NEGRO=20 COUNTRY up to 1871! Somehting no one puts in the books! Today members = of=20 Britains elite families wants to "CONSOLIDATE" the LAND OWNERSHIP by = MURDERING=20 off the DUTCH SETTLERS!


Which slow brutalisation has been in effect sincew the BOER WAR! =


Unbeknownst to IDIOT AMERICAN SCHOOL TEACHER..."Apartheid was = neither=20 Dutch...nor Old...it was introduced into SOUTH AFRICA as LAW = after...WWII! In=20 the 1950's! By none other than BRITISH-PASSPORTED...DIAMOND & GOLD = MINING=20 EURO-JEWS! Yes! The BOERS are farmers...that is what "BOER" 'means' in = DUTCH!=20


They had NO NEED of ZULU SLAVES from NIGERIA brought into the = country as=20 BRITISH trained & backed MERCENARIES...in 1871!


ONLY MINING HAS SUCH A REQUIREMENT! Now....the BRITISH


"Royals" (acually 'the WINDSORS'  are "ROGUE ROYALS FROM=20 GERMANY!"..."1776" and all that! PLEASE SEE: "THE DECLARAATION OF = INDEPENDENCE=20 OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"..."King George is a USURPER..."etc. = "They=20 have brought over ILLEGAL ALIEN ARMIES AND FOREIGN SPIES!"

So we have the HARRASSING and MURDER of FARMERS....in South Africa = who have=20 ONLY FED AND CLOTHED these ZULUS!

That is all! Now ALL wil starve...but the BLOODY BRITISH will get = the land!=20 OUR QUESTION:Are "CHINESE-AEMRICANS" more loyal to a "RED CHINESE = 'British=20 Possession...HONG KONG" than to their own NATIVE AMERICA? WE NEED = LOYALTY=20 OATHS!


 



 

Kysi Ferul  redwingblakburdz@yahoo.com=


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to=20 sell? ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0DE48.62FF1630-- From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 17 00:51:36 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA26359 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eniac.cable.net.co ([196.27.25.66]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA26258 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105170432.AAA26258@ietf.org> Received: from localhost ([209.88.49.106]) by eniac.cable.net.co (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 637-71558U30000L25000S0V35) with ESMTP id co for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 23:36:45 -0500 X-Sender: servicios@digitecnia.com From: "digitecnia.com" To: ietf@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:32:13 -0500 Subject: Su negocio esta al aire?... o en el aire? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001__29628196_84733,55" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a Multipart MIME message. ------=_NextPart_000_001__29628196_84733,55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_001__29628196_84733,55 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjx0aXRsZT5XRUJQQUNLIERJR0lURUNOSUE8L3RpdGxlPg0KPG1l dGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJz ZXQ9aXNvLTg4NTktMSI+DQo8U1RZTEU+DQo8IS0tDQphOmxpbmsgeyB0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRp b24gOiBub25lOyBjb2xvciA6IHdoaXRlOyB9DQphOnZpc2l0ZWQgeyB0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRp b24gOiBub25lOyBjb2xvciA6IHdoaXRlOyB9DQphOmFjdGl2ZSB7IHRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlv biA6IG5vbmU7IGNvbG9yIDogI0ZGMDAwMDsgfQ0KYTpob3ZlciB7IHRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlv biA6IG5vbmU7IGNvbG9yIDogI0ZGMDAwMDsgfQ0KLS0+DQo8L1NUWUxFPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0K DQo8Ym9keSA8Ym9keSBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IFZlcmRhbmE7IGZvbnQtc2l6ZTog 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Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:32 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c0deab$381ef260$1902a8c0@demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <200105170432.AAA26258@ietf.org> X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please do not use this to advertise…it is a waste of my time reading this Best regards, Chat Lok Senior Analyst Business Research Group 1 Hay Hill Berkeley Square London W1X 7LF Tel: +44 (0) 207 499 2788 Fax: +44 (0) 207 499 2792 Email: c.lok@brg-sa.com -----Original Message----- From: digitecnia.com [mailto:servicios@digitecnia.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 05:32 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Su negocio esta al aire?... o en el aire? El WEBPACK es una solución integral compuesta por los servicios básicos necesarios para tener un sitio en Internet de una forma rápida, económica y profesional, esta compuesto por: Nombre de Dominio Registro por 1 año -- www.su-empresa.com -- Diseño Web Portada inicial, 5 paginas adicionales, logotipo y 2 Formularios Hosting Web 1 año de servicio incluido, con 20 MB de espacio 5 Buzones de Correo Electrónico Valor 490 Dólares Adiciones al WEBPACK: Nuevo! Plug Comercial Consiste en un paquete adicional, que permite la implementación de comercio electrónico en su sitio Web. Esta compuesto por el sistema de catalogo en línea, carrito de compras, modulo de administración y un curso virtual de comercio electrónico. 1 año de servicio incluido. Valor 210 Dólares Diseño de Pagina adicional: 30 Dólares c/u Formulario con envio de resultados a un email: 25 Dólares c/u Si esta interesado en el WEBPACK, por favor llene el siguiente formulario: Nombre Empresa Ciudad País Dirección Teléfono email WEBPACK WEBPACK + Plug Comercial Nota: Es posible que este formulario no funcione correctamente en algunos programas de correo electrónico. Puede completarlo en línea en: http://www.digitecnia.com/webpack.htm o contactarse a : ventas@digitecnia.com www.digitecnia.com SI NO DESEA RECIBIR OFERTAS DE DIGITECNIA, CONTESTE ESTE EMAIL CON LA PALABRA REMOVER COMO ASUNTO. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WEBPACK DIGITECNIA

Pl= ease do not use this to advertise…it is a waste of my time reading = this

 

Best regards,

 

Chat Lok

Senior Analyst

Business Research = Group

1 Hay Hill

Berkeley Square

London

W1X 7LF

 

Tel: +44 (0) 207 499 = 2788

Fax: +44 (0) 207 499 = 2792

Email: c.lok@brg-sa.com

<= span class=3DEmailStyle20> 

-----Original Message-----
From: digitecnia.com [mailto:servicios@digitecnia.com]
Sent: 17 May 2001 = 05:32
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Su negocio esta = al aire?... o en el aire?

 

=

El WEBPACK  es una soluci=F3n = integral compuesta por los servicios b=E1sicos necesarios para tener un sitio en = Internet de una forma r=E1pida, econ=F3mica y profesional, esta compuesto = por:

Nombre de Dominio Registro por 1 a=F1o  -- www.su-empresa.com<= font face=3DVerdana> = --

Dise=F1o Web Portada inicial, 5 paginas adicionales, logotipo y 2 = Formularios

Hosting Web 1 a=F1o de servicio incluido, con 20 MB de = espacio

5 Buzones de Correo Electr=F3nico

Valor 490 = D=F3lares

 

Adiciones al WEBPACK:

Nuevo! Plug Comercial Consiste en un paquete adicional, que permite la = implementaci=F3n de comercio electr=F3nico en su sitio Web. Esta compuesto por el sistema de = catalogo en l=EDnea, carrito de compras, modulo de administraci=F3n y un curso = virtual de comercio electr=F3nico. 1 a=F1o de servicio incluido. = Valor 210 D=F3lares

Dise=F1o de = Pagina adicional: 30 D=F3lares c/u

Formulario con = envio de resultados a un email: 25 D=F3lares c/u

 

Si esta = interesado en el WEBPACK, por favor llene el siguiente = formulario:

Nombre<= /p>

Empresa=

Ciudad<= /p>

Pa=EDs<= /p>

Direcci=F3n

Tel=E9fono

email

 

WEBPACK=

 

WEBPACK + Plug Comercial

 

Nota: Es = posible que este formulario no funcione correctamente en algunos programas de = correo electr=F3nico. Puede completarlo en l=EDnea en: http://www.digitecnia.com/webpack.htm =

o = contactarse a : ventas@digitecnia.com

 

www.digitecnia.com

SI NO DESEA RECIBIR OFERTAS DE DIGITECNIA, CONTESTE ESTE EMAIL CON LA = PALABRA REMOVER COMO ASUNTO.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60-- From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 17 05:27:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA12532 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 17 May 2001 05:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA12101 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 04:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [62.49.143.138] (helo=fcldadsl) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 150J8A-0008GG-0Y; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:34 +0100 From: "Chat Lok" To: "'digitecnia.com'" , Subject: RE: Su negocio esta al aire?... o en el aire? Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:32 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c0deab$381ef260$1902a8c0@demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <200105170432.AAA26258@ietf.org> X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please do not use this to advertise…it is a waste of my time reading this Best regards, Chat Lok Senior Analyst Business Research Group 1 Hay Hill Berkeley Square London W1X 7LF Tel: +44 (0) 207 499 2788 Fax: +44 (0) 207 499 2792 Email: c.lok@brg-sa.com -----Original Message----- From: digitecnia.com [mailto:servicios@digitecnia.com] Sent: 17 May 2001 05:32 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Su negocio esta al aire?... o en el aire? El WEBPACK es una solución integral compuesta por los servicios básicos necesarios para tener un sitio en Internet de una forma rápida, económica y profesional, esta compuesto por: Nombre de Dominio Registro por 1 año -- www.su-empresa.com -- Diseño Web Portada inicial, 5 paginas adicionales, logotipo y 2 Formularios Hosting Web 1 año de servicio incluido, con 20 MB de espacio 5 Buzones de Correo Electrónico Valor 490 Dólares Adiciones al WEBPACK: Nuevo! Plug Comercial Consiste en un paquete adicional, que permite la implementación de comercio electrónico en su sitio Web. Esta compuesto por el sistema de catalogo en línea, carrito de compras, modulo de administración y un curso virtual de comercio electrónico. 1 año de servicio incluido. Valor 210 Dólares Diseño de Pagina adicional: 30 Dólares c/u Formulario con envio de resultados a un email: 25 Dólares c/u Si esta interesado en el WEBPACK, por favor llene el siguiente formulario: Nombre Empresa Ciudad País Dirección Teléfono email WEBPACK WEBPACK + Plug Comercial Nota: Es posible que este formulario no funcione correctamente en algunos programas de correo electrónico. Puede completarlo en línea en: http://www.digitecnia.com/webpack.htm o contactarse a : ventas@digitecnia.com www.digitecnia.com SI NO DESEA RECIBIR OFERTAS DE DIGITECNIA, CONTESTE ESTE EMAIL CON LA PALABRA REMOVER COMO ASUNTO. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WEBPACK DIGITECNIA

Pl= ease do not use this to advertise…it is a waste of my time reading = this

 

Best regards,

 

Chat Lok

Senior Analyst

Business Research = Group

1 Hay Hill

Berkeley Square

London

W1X 7LF

 

Tel: +44 (0) 207 499 = 2788

Fax: +44 (0) 207 499 = 2792

Email: c.lok@brg-sa.com

<= span class=3DEmailStyle20> 

-----Original Message-----
From: digitecnia.com [mailto:servicios@digitecnia.com]
Sent: 17 May 2001 = 05:32
To: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Su negocio esta = al aire?... o en el aire?

 

=

El WEBPACK  es una soluci=F3n = integral compuesta por los servicios b=E1sicos necesarios para tener un sitio en = Internet de una forma r=E1pida, econ=F3mica y profesional, esta compuesto = por:

Nombre de Dominio Registro por 1 a=F1o  -- www.su-empresa.com<= font face=3DVerdana> = --

Dise=F1o Web Portada inicial, 5 paginas adicionales, logotipo y 2 = Formularios

Hosting Web 1 a=F1o de servicio incluido, con 20 MB de = espacio

5 Buzones de Correo Electr=F3nico

Valor 490 = D=F3lares

 

Adiciones al WEBPACK:

Nuevo! Plug Comercial Consiste en un paquete adicional, que permite la = implementaci=F3n de comercio electr=F3nico en su sitio Web. Esta compuesto por el sistema de = catalogo en l=EDnea, carrito de compras, modulo de administraci=F3n y un curso = virtual de comercio electr=F3nico. 1 a=F1o de servicio incluido. = Valor 210 D=F3lares

Dise=F1o de = Pagina adicional: 30 D=F3lares c/u

Formulario con = envio de resultados a un email: 25 D=F3lares c/u

 

Si esta = interesado en el WEBPACK, por favor llene el siguiente = formulario:

Nombre<= /p>

Empresa=

Ciudad<= /p>

Pa=EDs<= /p>

Direcci=F3n

Tel=E9fono

email

 

WEBPACK=

 

WEBPACK + Plug Comercial

 

Nota: Es = posible que este formulario no funcione correctamente en algunos programas de = correo electr=F3nico. Puede completarlo en l=EDnea en: http://www.digitecnia.com/webpack.htm =

o = contactarse a : ventas@digitecnia.com

 

www.digitecnia.com

SI NO DESEA RECIBIR OFERTAS DE DIGITECNIA, CONTESTE ESTE EMAIL CON LA = PALABRA REMOVER COMO ASUNTO.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0DEB3.99E35A60-- From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 18 14:48:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA11637 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bluem.bluemakoi.net (213-55.84.64.master-link.com [64.84.55.213]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA10829 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bluem (bluem [64.84.55.213]) by bluem.bluemakoi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA32744 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:24:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200105181824.LAA32744@bluem.bluemakoi.net> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:24:42 PDT From: "VocaLoca" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Interactive Web Presentations Made Easy Reply-To: info@vocaloca.com X-Courtesy-Of: Bluemakoi mailOut 2.0 (Built: Apr 19 2001 15:00:33) X-Message-Id: 527 X-Recipient-Id: 159944 X-Run-Id: 1980 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_=" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please note that this "Live" Brochure is available in its entirety online at: "http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm" Thank you for your interest in us your promotional discount code is: B34367. This code is valid for 30 days. Simply enter the code before starting your presentation to receive your discount. Jaggi Ayyangar our CEO wishes to thank you for your support! VOCALOCA, the HOME of INTERACTIVE STREAMING a better way to Sell, Train, Support and Motivate - PAYING TOO MUCH FOR TELEPHONE/DATA CONFERENCES? - NEED TO MAKE YOU MARKETING MESSAGES MORE PRODUCTIVE? - NEED TO REACH MORE PEOPLE WITHOUT RUNAWAY COSTS? - WANT TO MAKE THE POWER OF RICH MEDIA WORK FOR YOUR BOTTOM LINE? If one of the above applies to you, read on: Now for the first time the benefits of Streaming and Interactivity have been applied to Web presentations. NOW STREAMING PRESENTATIONS WITH AUDIO INTERACTION ARE A REALITY! Visit our WebSite at "http://www.vocaloca.com", contact us at "http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/about/cinfo2.html" or select the demonstration links below: With a new Pay-As-You-Use service being made available this month, using of our low-cost live Web presentation system could not be easier! We even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides for "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is also available as a "host your own" software package or a custom hosted solution. Try it NOW!! at "http://business.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/site/index.jsp" Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a Web connection can generate or participate in business presentations, radio style broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training. VOCALOCA OFFERS YOU THE ABILITY TO SIMPLY PRODUCE & DEPLOY INTERACTIVE PRESENTATIONS TO 1 or 100,000; LIVE or ON-DEMAND! RealPlayer must be installed on your system to view the demos. Test your system at http://www.vocaloca.com/sound_check.html RealPlayer 8 is recommended (yes, the free version is perfect) http://www.real.com/player/index.html?src=010406realhome_1 SAMPLE PRESENTATATION LINKS: Click on the links below to hear and see what VocaLoca can do for your business! VocaLoca for Presentations, Sales, Marketing & Collaboration http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,377 Producing Web presentations just got easy! Add live 2-way voice to your presentations Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it for On-demand replay Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all listeners On-demand Web link available immediately after a live presentation VocaLoca for eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness Simulation) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,6 Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible (5.0+) Now offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem connection Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use system: UNIQUE! Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture for the future! VocaLoca for eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,9 PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages synchronized to the audio stream Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web links Host Live polls of your listeners and present special offers via Web forms SureStreamTM technology used for the best use of available bandwidth Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits in days! VocaLoca for Relationship Management (Job CRM Simulation) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,11 More efficient use of operator's time, keeping costs to a minimum Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000 times Easily train new operators Leverage archived recordings into content for live interactive broadcasts Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a breeze VocaLoca as an ASP or a Self-Hosted Solution (Corporate Update) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,13 Link & Launch your solution in days! Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution for easy deployment Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work groups Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing profitability Pay-As-You-Go option also available VocaLoca for Public broadcasts (Web tour of www.vocaloca.com) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,12 Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite site(s) or products Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive voice "call-ins" Presentations can be received down to a 28.8 connection Simple production tools, all hosted remotely Be Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a show's reach To download a free copy of VocaLoca's white-paper by the Gartner Group: "Interactive Streaming Platform" from http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/pdf/vlwhitepaper.pdf Copyright 2001 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights Reserved This message was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue Makoi. If you prefer not to receive these messages, you may unsubscribe at http://www.bluemakoi.com/spooner/unsubscribe.jsp?rcid=159944&rid=1980&email_address=ietf@ietf.org&company_name=VocaLoca --=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_= Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
  . Thank you for your interest in us:  
Please note that this "Live" Brochure is available in its entirety online. If you are having trouble accessing the links in this Email, please copy and paste the following URL into your browser: http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm
your promotional
  VocaLoca, the Home of Interactive StreamingTM

discount code is: B34367
Simply type this code before you present to receive your discount
valid for 30 days only

  
- Paying too much for telephone/data conferences?
- Need to make your marketing messages more productive?
- Need to reach more people without runaway costs?
- Want to make the power of rich media work FOR your bottom line?

If one of the above applies to you, read on: Now for the first time the benefits of Streaming and Interactivity have been applied to Web presentations.

Now Streaming Presentations with Audio Interaction are a reality!!

With a new Pay-As-You-Use service being made available this month, using of our low-cost live Web presentation system could not be easier! We even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides for "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is also available as a "host your own" software package or a custom hosted solution. Try it NOW!!

Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a Web connection can generate or participate in business presentations, radio style broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training.

Jaggi Ayyangar, our CEO says

  
Thank you for your support!
 
 
RealPlayer is required to view the demos.
Click here to test your system


RealPlayer 8 is recommended
(yes, the free version is perfect)
  
Sample Presentation Links:
   VocaLoca offers you the ability to simply produce and deploy
Click on the screens below to hear and see
   Interactive presentations to 1 or 100,000; Live or On-demand !
what VocaLoca can do for your business!
  

  VocaLoca for Presentations, Sales, Marketing & Collaboration
 

 

 

Producing Web presentations just got easy!

  Add live 2-way voice to your presentations
  Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it for On-demand replay
  Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all listeners
  On-demand Web link available immediately after a live presentation
   
     
   VocaLoca for eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness Simulation)
   
  Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer
  Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible (5.0+)
  Now offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem connection
  Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use system: UNIQUE!
  Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture for the future!
   
     
   VocaLoca for eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation)
   
  PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages synchronized to the audio stream
  Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web links
  Host Live polls of your listeners and present special offers via Web forms
  SureStreamTM technology used for the best use of available bandwidth
  Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits in days!
   
     
   VocaLoca for Relationship Management (Job CRM Simulation)
   
  More efficient use of operator's time, keeping costs to a minimum
  Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000 times
  Easily train new operators
  Leverage archived recordings into content for live interactive broadcasts
  Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a breeze
   
     
   VocaLoca as an ASP or a Self-Hosted Solution (Corporate Update)
   
  Link & Launch your solution in days!
  Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution for easy deployment
  Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work groups
  Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing profitability
  Pay-As-You-Go option also available
   
     
   VocaLoca for Public broadcasts (Web tour of www.vocaloca.com)
   
  Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite site(s) or products
  Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive voice "call-ins"
  Presentations can be received down to a 28.8 connection
  Simple production tools, all hosted remotely
  Be Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a show's reach
   
     To download VocaLoca's white-paper by the Gartner Group:
"Interactive Streaming Platform" Click here

Copyright © 2001 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights Reserved


This message was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue Makoi.
If you prefer not to receive these messages, please click on the following link to unsubscribe

--=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_=-- From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 18 14:43:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA11468 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bluem.bluemakoi.net (213-55.84.64.master-link.com [64.84.55.213]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA10829 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bluem (bluem [64.84.55.213]) by bluem.bluemakoi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA32744 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:24:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200105181824.LAA32744@bluem.bluemakoi.net> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:24:42 PDT From: "VocaLoca" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Interactive Web Presentations Made Easy Reply-To: info@vocaloca.com X-Courtesy-Of: Bluemakoi mailOut 2.0 (Built: Apr 19 2001 15:00:33) X-Message-Id: 527 X-Recipient-Id: 159944 X-Run-Id: 1980 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_=" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please note that this "Live" Brochure is available in its entirety online at: "http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm" Thank you for your interest in us your promotional discount code is: B34367. This code is valid for 30 days. Simply enter the code before starting your presentation to receive your discount. Jaggi Ayyangar our CEO wishes to thank you for your support! VOCALOCA, the HOME of INTERACTIVE STREAMING a better way to Sell, Train, Support and Motivate - PAYING TOO MUCH FOR TELEPHONE/DATA CONFERENCES? - NEED TO MAKE YOU MARKETING MESSAGES MORE PRODUCTIVE? - NEED TO REACH MORE PEOPLE WITHOUT RUNAWAY COSTS? - WANT TO MAKE THE POWER OF RICH MEDIA WORK FOR YOUR BOTTOM LINE? If one of the above applies to you, read on: Now for the first time the benefits of Streaming and Interactivity have been applied to Web presentations. NOW STREAMING PRESENTATIONS WITH AUDIO INTERACTION ARE A REALITY! Visit our WebSite at "http://www.vocaloca.com", contact us at "http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/about/cinfo2.html" or select the demonstration links below: With a new Pay-As-You-Use service being made available this month, using of our low-cost live Web presentation system could not be easier! We even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides for "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is also available as a "host your own" software package or a custom hosted solution. Try it NOW!! at "http://business.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/site/index.jsp" Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a Web connection can generate or participate in business presentations, radio style broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training. VOCALOCA OFFERS YOU THE ABILITY TO SIMPLY PRODUCE & DEPLOY INTERACTIVE PRESENTATIONS TO 1 or 100,000; LIVE or ON-DEMAND! RealPlayer must be installed on your system to view the demos. Test your system at http://www.vocaloca.com/sound_check.html RealPlayer 8 is recommended (yes, the free version is perfect) http://www.real.com/player/index.html?src=010406realhome_1 SAMPLE PRESENTATATION LINKS: Click on the links below to hear and see what VocaLoca can do for your business! VocaLoca for Presentations, Sales, Marketing & Collaboration http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,377 Producing Web presentations just got easy! Add live 2-way voice to your presentations Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it for On-demand replay Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all listeners On-demand Web link available immediately after a live presentation VocaLoca for eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness Simulation) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,6 Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible (5.0+) Now offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem connection Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use system: UNIQUE! Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture for the future! VocaLoca for eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,9 PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages synchronized to the audio stream Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web links Host Live polls of your listeners and present special offers via Web forms SureStreamTM technology used for the best use of available bandwidth Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits in days! VocaLoca for Relationship Management (Job CRM Simulation) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,11 More efficient use of operator's time, keeping costs to a minimum Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000 times Easily train new operators Leverage archived recordings into content for live interactive broadcasts Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a breeze VocaLoca as an ASP or a Self-Hosted Solution (Corporate Update) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,13 Link & Launch your solution in days! Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution for easy deployment Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work groups Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing profitability Pay-As-You-Go option also available VocaLoca for Public broadcasts (Web tour of www.vocaloca.com) http://www.vocaloca.com/vocaloca/partner/vldemo1/landing.html?program=0,vldemo1,93,12 Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite site(s) or products Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive voice "call-ins" Presentations can be received down to a 28.8 connection Simple production tools, all hosted remotely Be Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a show's reach To download a free copy of VocaLoca's white-paper by the Gartner Group: "Interactive Streaming Platform" from http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/pdf/vlwhitepaper.pdf Copyright 2001 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights Reserved This message was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue Makoi. If you prefer not to receive these messages, you may unsubscribe at http://www.bluemakoi.com/spooner/unsubscribe.jsp?rcid=159944&rid=1980&email_address=ietf@ietf.org&company_name=VocaLoca --=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_= Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
  . Thank you for your interest in us:  
Please note that this "Live" Brochure is available in its entirety online. If you are having trouble accessing the links in this Email, please copy and paste the following URL into your browser: http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm
your promotional
  VocaLoca, the Home of Interactive StreamingTM

discount code is: B34367
Simply type this code before you present to receive your discount
valid for 30 days only

  
- Paying too much for telephone/data conferences?
- Need to make your marketing messages more productive?
- Need to reach more people without runaway costs?
- Want to make the power of rich media work FOR your bottom line?

If one of the above applies to you, read on: Now for the first time the benefits of Streaming and Interactivity have been applied to Web presentations.

Now Streaming Presentations with Audio Interaction are a reality!!

With a new Pay-As-You-Use service being made available this month, using of our low-cost live Web presentation system could not be easier! We even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides for "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is also available as a "host your own" software package or a custom hosted solution. Try it NOW!!

Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a Web connection can generate or participate in business presentations, radio style broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training.

Jaggi Ayyangar, our CEO says

  
Thank you for your support!
 
 
RealPlayer is required to view the demos.
Click here to test your system


RealPlayer 8 is recommended
(yes, the free version is perfect)
  
Sample Presentation Links:
   VocaLoca offers you the ability to simply produce and deploy
Click on the screens below to hear and see
   Interactive presentations to 1 or 100,000; Live or On-demand !
what VocaLoca can do for your business!
  

  VocaLoca for Presentations, Sales, Marketing & Collaboration
 

 

 

Producing Web presentations just got easy!

  Add live 2-way voice to your presentations
  Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it for On-demand replay
  Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all listeners
  On-demand Web link available immediately after a live presentation
   
     
   VocaLoca for eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness Simulation)
   
  Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer
  Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible (5.0+)
  Now offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem connection
  Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use system: UNIQUE!
  Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture for the future!
   
     
   VocaLoca for eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation)
   
  PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages synchronized to the audio stream
  Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web links
  Host Live polls of your listeners and present special offers via Web forms
  SureStreamTM technology used for the best use of available bandwidth
  Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits in days!
   
     
   VocaLoca for Relationship Management (Job CRM Simulation)
   
  More efficient use of operator's time, keeping costs to a minimum
  Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000 times
  Easily train new operators
  Leverage archived recordings into content for live interactive broadcasts
  Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a breeze
   
     
   VocaLoca as an ASP or a Self-Hosted Solution (Corporate Update)
   
  Link & Launch your solution in days!
  Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution for easy deployment
  Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work groups
  Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing profitability
  Pay-As-You-Go option also available
   
     
   VocaLoca for Public broadcasts (Web tour of www.vocaloca.com)
   
  Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite site(s) or products
  Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive voice "call-ins"
  Presentations can be received down to a 28.8 connection
  Simple production tools, all hosted remotely
  Be Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a show's reach
   
     To download VocaLoca's white-paper by the Gartner Group:
"Interactive Streaming Platform" Click here

Copyright © 2001 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights Reserved


This message was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue Makoi.
If you prefer not to receive these messages, please click on the following link to unsubscribe

--=_bluemakoi_alternatives_boundary_=-- From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 18 19:23:57 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA19041 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bsd.ver.megared.net.mx (customer-VER-208-19.megared.net.mx [200.52.208.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA18561 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Arronte ([10.20.1.9]) by bsd.ver.megared.net.mx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA94451; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:58:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from marronte@ver.megared.net.mx) Message-ID: <00cb01c0dfee$8e54b360$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> From: "Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia" To: , References: <200105181824.LAA32744@bluem.bluemakoi.net> Subject: Re: Interactive Web Presentations Made Easy Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:02:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been subscribed to teh IETF mailing list since a while now, I've = received some very interesting articles, but why do some people use this = list to advertise their services? I'm sick of this and as far as I know = I'm not alone... What does this have to do in any way with the IETF objectives? Manuel Arronte Helpdesk supervisor Meg@RED, Veracruz MEXICO ----- Original Message -----=20 From: VocaLoca=20 To: ietf@ietf.org=20 Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:24 P Subject: Interactive Web Presentations Made Easy =20 . Thank you for your interest in us: Please note that = this "Live" Brochure is available in its entirety online. If you are = having trouble accessing the links in this Email, please copy and paste = the following URL into your browser: = http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm =20 your promotional VocaLoca, the Home of Interactive = StreamingTM=20 discount code is: B34367=20 Simply type this code before you present to receive your = discount=20 valid for 30 days only - Paying too much for telephone/data conferences? - Need to make your marketing messages more productive? - Need to reach more people without runaway costs? - Want to make the power of rich media work FOR your = bottom line? If one of the above applies to you, read on: Now for the = first time the benefits of Streaming and Interactivity have been applied = to Web presentations.=20 Now Streaming Presentations with Audio Interaction are a = reality!! With a new Pay-As-You-Use service being made available = this month, using of our low-cost live Web presentation system could not = be easier! We even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides = for "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is also = available as a "host your own" software package or a custom hosted = solution. Try it NOW!!=20 Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a Web connection can = generate or participate in business presentations, radio style = broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training. =20 Jaggi Ayyangar, our CEO says =20 Thank you for your support! =20 VISIT OUR WEBSITE . CONTACT US =20 RealPlayer is required to view the demos.=20 Click here to test your system=20 =20 RealPlayer 8 is recommended (yes, the free version is perfect) =20 Sample Presentation Links: VocaLoca offers you the = ability to simply produce and deploy=20 Click on the screens below to hear and see Interactive = presentations to 1 or 100,000; Live or On-demand !=20 what VocaLoca can do for your business! =20 =20 VocaLoca for Presentations, Sales, Marketing & = Collaboration =20 =20 =20 Producing Web presentations just got easy! =20 Add live 2-way voice to your presentations=20 Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it for = On-demand replay=20 Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all listeners=20 On-demand Web link available immediately after a live = presentation=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca for eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness = Simulation) =20 =20 Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer =20 Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible (5.0+)=20 Now offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem = connection=20 Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use = system: UNIQUE!=20 Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture for = the future!=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca for eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation) =20 =20 PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages synchronized to the = audio stream=20 Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web links=20 Host Live polls of your listeners and present special = offers via Web forms=20 SureStreamTM technology used for the best use of = available bandwidth=20 Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits in days! = =20 =20 VocaLoca for Relationship Management (Job CRM = Simulation) =20 =20 More efficient use of operator's time, keeping costs to = a minimum=20 Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000 times=20 Easily train new operators=20 Leverage archived recordings into content for live = interactive broadcasts =20 Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a breeze=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca as an ASP or a Self-Hosted Solution = (Corporate Update) =20 =20 Link & Launch your solution in days!=20 Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution for = easy deployment=20 Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work groups=20 Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing profitability=20 Pay-As-You-Go option also available=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca for Public broadcasts (Web tour of = www.vocaloca.com) =20 =20 Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite = site(s) or products=20 Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive voice = "call-ins"=20 Presentations can be received down to a 28.8 connection=20 Simple production tools, all hosted remotely=20 Be Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a = show's reach=20 =20 To download VocaLoca's white-paper by the Gartner = Group: "Interactive Streaming Platform" Click here =20 Copyright =A9 2001 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights Reserved =20 This message was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue Makoi. If you prefer not to receive these messages, please click on the = following link to unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've been subscribed to teh IETF = mailing list since=20 a while now, I've received some very interesting articles, but why do = some=20 people use this list to advertise their services? I'm sick of this and = as far as=20 I know I'm not alone...
 
What does this have to do in any way = with the IETF=20 objectives?
 
Manuel Arronte
Helpdesk supervisor
Meg@RED, = Veracruz=20 MEXICO
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 VocaLoca
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:24 = P
Subject: Interactive Web = Presentations=20 Made Easy

=20
  . Thank = you for your=20 interest in us:  
Please note that this "Live" Brochure is = available in its=20 entirety online. If you are having trouble accessing the = links in=20 this Email, please copy and paste the following URL into = your=20 browser: http://www.v= ocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm=20
your promotional
  VocaLoca,=20 the Home of=20 Interactive StreamingTM

discount=20 code is: B34367
Simply type this code before you = present=20 to receive your discount
valid for = 30 days=20 only

  
- Paying too much for telephone/data=20 conferences?
- Need to make your marketing messages = more=20 productive?
- Need to reach more people without runaway = costs?
- Want to make the power of rich media work FOR = your=20 bottom line?

If one of the above applies to = you,=20 read on: Now for the first time the benefits of Streaming = and=20 Interactivity have been applied to Web presentations.=20

Now Streaming Presentations with Audio = Interaction=20 are a reality!!

With a new=20 Pay-As-You-Use service being made available this month, = using of=20 our low-cost live Web presentation system could not be = easier! We=20 even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides = for=20 "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is = also=20 available as a "host your own" software package or a = custom hosted=20 solution. Try=20 it NOW!!

Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a = Web=20 connection can generate or participate in business = presentations,=20 radio style broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training.=20

Jaggi=20 Ayyangar, our CEO says

  
Thank you for your support! =
 
VISIT=20 OUR WEBSITE .

CONTACT US =
 
RealPlayer is required to view the demos. =
Click=20 here to test your system


RealPlayer 8 is recommended
(yes, the free = version is=20 perfect)
  
Sample Presentation = Links:
   VocaLoca offers=20 you the ability to simply produce and = deploy
Click on the screens below to hear and = see
   Interactive presentations to 1 or 100,000; = Live or=20 On-demand !
what VocaLoca can do for your = business!
  

  VocaLoca = for=20 Presentations, Sales, Marketing & = Collaboration=20
 

 

 

Producing Web=20 presentations just got easy!

  Add=20 live 2-way voice to your presentations
  Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it = for=20 On-demand replay
  Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all=20 listeners
  On-demand Web link available immediately after a = live=20 presentation
   
     
   VocaLoca = for=20 eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness=20 Simulation)
   
  Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer =
  Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible=20 (5.0+)
  Now=20 offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem=20 connection
  Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use = system:=20 UNIQUE!
  Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture = for the=20 future!
   
     
   VocaLoca = for=20 eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation) =
   
  PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages = synchronized to the=20 audio stream
  Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web=20 links
  Host Live polls of your listeners and present = special=20 offers via Web forms
  SureStreamTM = technology=20 used for the best use of available = bandwidth
  Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits = in=20 days!
   
     
   VocaLoca = for=20 Relationship Management (Job CRM = Simulation)
   
  More efficient use of operator's time, keeping = costs to a=20 minimum
  Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000=20 times
  Easily train new operators
  Leverage archived recordings into content for = live=20 interactive broadcasts
  Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a=20 breeze
   
     
   VocaLoca = as an ASP=20 or a Self-Hosted Solution (Corporate = Update)
   
  Link & Launch your solution in = days!
  Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution = for easy=20 deployment
  Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work=20 groups
  Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing=20 profitability
  Pay-As-You-Go option also = available
   
     
   VocaLoca = for Public=20 broadcasts (Web tour of www.vocaloca.com) =
   
  Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite = site(s)=20 or products
  Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive = voice=20 "call-ins"
  Presentations can be received down to a 28.8=20 connection
  Simple production tools, all hosted = remotely
  Be=20 Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a show's = reach
   
     To download VocaLoca's white-paper by the = Gartner=20 Group:
"Interactive Streaming Platform" Click=20 here

Copyright =A9 2001=20 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights = Reserved


This message=20 was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue = Makoi.
If=20 you prefer not to receive these messages, please click on the = following link=20 to unsubscribe

------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460-- From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 18 19:28:23 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA19163 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bsd.ver.megared.net.mx (customer-VER-208-19.megared.net.mx [200.52.208.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA18561 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Arronte ([10.20.1.9]) by bsd.ver.megared.net.mx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA94451; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:58:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from marronte@ver.megared.net.mx) Message-ID: <00cb01c0dfee$8e54b360$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> From: "Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia" To: , References: <200105181824.LAA32744@bluem.bluemakoi.net> Subject: Re: Interactive Web Presentations Made Easy Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:02:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been subscribed to teh IETF mailing list since a while now, I've = received some very interesting articles, but why do some people use this = list to advertise their services? I'm sick of this and as far as I know = I'm not alone... What does this have to do in any way with the IETF objectives? Manuel Arronte Helpdesk supervisor Meg@RED, Veracruz MEXICO ----- Original Message -----=20 From: VocaLoca=20 To: ietf@ietf.org=20 Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:24 P Subject: Interactive Web Presentations Made Easy =20 . Thank you for your interest in us: Please note that = this "Live" Brochure is available in its entirety online. If you are = having trouble accessing the links in this Email, please copy and paste = the following URL into your browser: = http://www.vocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm =20 your promotional VocaLoca, the Home of Interactive = StreamingTM=20 discount code is: B34367=20 Simply type this code before you present to receive your = discount=20 valid for 30 days only - Paying too much for telephone/data conferences? - Need to make your marketing messages more productive? - Need to reach more people without runaway costs? - Want to make the power of rich media work FOR your = bottom line? If one of the above applies to you, read on: Now for the = first time the benefits of Streaming and Interactivity have been applied = to Web presentations.=20 Now Streaming Presentations with Audio Interaction are a = reality!! With a new Pay-As-You-Use service being made available = this month, using of our low-cost live Web presentation system could not = be easier! We even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides = for "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is also = available as a "host your own" software package or a custom hosted = solution. Try it NOW!!=20 Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a Web connection can = generate or participate in business presentations, radio style = broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training. =20 Jaggi Ayyangar, our CEO says =20 Thank you for your support! =20 VISIT OUR WEBSITE . CONTACT US =20 RealPlayer is required to view the demos.=20 Click here to test your system=20 =20 RealPlayer 8 is recommended (yes, the free version is perfect) =20 Sample Presentation Links: VocaLoca offers you the = ability to simply produce and deploy=20 Click on the screens below to hear and see Interactive = presentations to 1 or 100,000; Live or On-demand !=20 what VocaLoca can do for your business! =20 =20 VocaLoca for Presentations, Sales, Marketing & = Collaboration =20 =20 =20 Producing Web presentations just got easy! =20 Add live 2-way voice to your presentations=20 Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it for = On-demand replay=20 Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all listeners=20 On-demand Web link available immediately after a live = presentation=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca for eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness = Simulation) =20 =20 Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer =20 Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible (5.0+)=20 Now offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem = connection=20 Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use = system: UNIQUE!=20 Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture for = the future!=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca for eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation) =20 =20 PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages synchronized to the = audio stream=20 Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web links=20 Host Live polls of your listeners and present special = offers via Web forms=20 SureStreamTM technology used for the best use of = available bandwidth=20 Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits in days! = =20 =20 VocaLoca for Relationship Management (Job CRM = Simulation) =20 =20 More efficient use of operator's time, keeping costs to = a minimum=20 Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000 times=20 Easily train new operators=20 Leverage archived recordings into content for live = interactive broadcasts =20 Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a breeze=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca as an ASP or a Self-Hosted Solution = (Corporate Update) =20 =20 Link & Launch your solution in days!=20 Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution for = easy deployment=20 Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work groups=20 Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing profitability=20 Pay-As-You-Go option also available=20 =20 =20 VocaLoca for Public broadcasts (Web tour of = www.vocaloca.com) =20 =20 Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite = site(s) or products=20 Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive voice = "call-ins"=20 Presentations can be received down to a 28.8 connection=20 Simple production tools, all hosted remotely=20 Be Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a = show's reach=20 =20 To download VocaLoca's white-paper by the Gartner = Group: "Interactive Streaming Platform" Click here =20 Copyright =A9 2001 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights Reserved =20 This message was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue Makoi. If you prefer not to receive these messages, please click on the = following link to unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've been subscribed to teh IETF = mailing list since=20 a while now, I've received some very interesting articles, but why do = some=20 people use this list to advertise their services? I'm sick of this and = as far as=20 I know I'm not alone...
 
What does this have to do in any way = with the IETF=20 objectives?
 
Manuel Arronte
Helpdesk supervisor
Meg@RED, = Veracruz=20 MEXICO
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 VocaLoca
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:24 = P
Subject: Interactive Web = Presentations=20 Made Easy

=20
  . Thank = you for your=20 interest in us:  
Please note that this "Live" Brochure is = available in its=20 entirety online. If you are having trouble accessing the = links in=20 this Email, please copy and paste the following URL into = your=20 browser: http://www.v= ocaloca.com/vlweb/newsletter/B34367.htm=20
your promotional
  VocaLoca,=20 the Home of=20 Interactive StreamingTM

discount=20 code is: B34367
Simply type this code before you = present=20 to receive your discount
valid for = 30 days=20 only

  
- Paying too much for telephone/data=20 conferences?
- Need to make your marketing messages = more=20 productive?
- Need to reach more people without runaway = costs?
- Want to make the power of rich media work FOR = your=20 bottom line?

If one of the above applies to = you,=20 read on: Now for the first time the benefits of Streaming = and=20 Interactivity have been applied to Web presentations.=20

Now Streaming Presentations with Audio = Interaction=20 are a reality!!

With a new=20 Pay-As-You-Use service being made available this month, = using of=20 our low-cost live Web presentation system could not be = easier! We=20 even include the recording of voice, web pages and slides = for=20 "click & play" Web access at a later time. VocaLoca is = also=20 available as a "host your own" software package or a = custom hosted=20 solution. Try=20 it NOW!!

Anyone, anywhere with a PC and a = Web=20 connection can generate or participate in business = presentations,=20 radio style broadcasts, Web tours, eLearning or training.=20

Jaggi=20 Ayyangar, our CEO says

  
Thank you for your support! =
 
VISIT=20 OUR WEBSITE .

CONTACT US =
 
RealPlayer is required to view the demos. =
Click=20 here to test your system


RealPlayer 8 is recommended
(yes, the free = version is=20 perfect)
  
Sample Presentation = Links:
   VocaLoca offers=20 you the ability to simply produce and = deploy
Click on the screens below to hear and = see
   Interactive presentations to 1 or 100,000; = Live or=20 On-demand !
what VocaLoca can do for your = business!
  

  VocaLoca = for=20 Presentations, Sales, Marketing & = Collaboration=20
 

 

 

Producing Web=20 presentations just got easy!

  Add=20 live 2-way voice to your presentations
  Broadcast your pitch once, save it and link it = for=20 On-demand replay
  Push PowerPoint slides & Web pages to all=20 listeners
  On-demand Web link available immediately after a = live=20 presentation
   
     
   VocaLoca = for=20 eLearning & Training (Quake Readiness=20 Simulation)
   
  Windows and Mac compliant listener/viewer =
  Netscape (4.5 +) and Internet Explorer compaible=20 (5.0+)
  Now=20 offer 2-way voice & data, even on a single modem=20 connection
  Live, scaleable AND low-cost in one simple to use = system:=20 UNIQUE!
  Interactive Streaming: THE broadcast architecture = for the=20 future!
   
     
   VocaLoca = for=20 eCommerce (Wine Sales Simulation) =
   
  PowerPoints, pictures & Web pages = synchronized to the=20 audio stream
  Engage your customers with our dynamic XML Web=20 links
  Host Live polls of your listeners and present = special=20 offers via Web forms
  SureStreamTM = technology=20 used for the best use of available = bandwidth
  Installed in minutes, Branded in hours, Profits = in=20 days!
   
     
   VocaLoca = for=20 Relationship Management (Job CRM = Simulation)
   
  More efficient use of operator's time, keeping = costs to a=20 minimum
  Answer the question once, re-broadcast it a 1000=20 times
  Easily train new operators
  Leverage archived recordings into content for = live=20 interactive broadcasts
  Producing Self-service rich-media FAQs are a=20 breeze
   
     
   VocaLoca = as an ASP=20 or a Self-Hosted Solution (Corporate = Update)
   
  Link & Launch your solution in = days!
  Incorporate VocaLoca's branding and XML solution = for easy=20 deployment
  Lower the cost of collaborating with remote work=20 groups
  Keeping monthly costs down, enhancing=20 profitability
  Pay-As-You-Go option also = available
   
     
   VocaLoca = for Public=20 broadcasts (Web tour of www.vocaloca.com) =
   
  Live or Self-contained Web tours of your favorite = site(s)=20 or products
  Self-expression: Web radio shows with interactive = voice=20 "call-ins"
  Presentations can be received down to a 28.8=20 connection
  Simple production tools, all hosted = remotely
  Be=20 Viral! : email or instant message links to expand a show's = reach
   
     To download VocaLoca's white-paper by the = Gartner=20 Group:
"Interactive Streaming Platform" Click=20 here

Copyright =A9 2001=20 VocaLoca, Inc. All Rights = Reserved


This message=20 was sent by VocaLoca powered by Blue = Makoi.
If=20 you prefer not to receive these messages, please click on the = following link=20 to unsubscribe

------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C0DFC4.A4F86460-- From owner-ietf-outbound Sat May 19 19:04:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA16501 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exchangerfs.rfsmgmt ([208.239.234.194]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA16400 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 18:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105192250.SAA16400@ietf.org> From: giftcaravan@usa.com Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 17:27:38 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: SAVE 40-50% at Gift Caravan - coupon included xp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ****************************************************************************** You are receiving this email because you or someone you know requested that you receive a special promotion from Gift Caravan, or you have been selected for this special promotion. 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Regards, Promo Dept http://www.giftcaravan.com ******************************************************************************* ALL Remove requests AUTOMATICALLY honored upon receipt Reply to the following email address offlist777@hotmail.com?subject=remove ******************************************************************************* From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 05:42:02 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA08598 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 05:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hearno.cyberware.co.uk (hearno.cyberware.co.uk [194.74.221.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA08531 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 05:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portable (dial5.cyberware.co.uk [62.172.180.72]) by hearno.cyberware.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA22578 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 10:30:53 +0100 (BST) From: Andy Fletcher To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Mailing list policy Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:31:38 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052010313804.02065@portable> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There appears to be a lot of spam on this list at the moment. Most of it appears to be coming from addresses which probably are not subscribed to the list. If the list posting policy is 'open' can it be changed to 'subscribed addresses' only? This won't stop legitimate posts as there is no reason to post to the ietf list unless you are subscribed to it, but will stop the bulk of the spammers. I am suffering the same problem with the Linux Beer Hike mailing list and am about to make the same change, it was fine for the last couple of years up to about 2 months ago when the spambots got hold of the address. Andy From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 12:30:44 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA11485 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snark.piermont.com ([206.1.51.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA11436 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by snark.piermont.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C59D31E005F; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Sender: perry@snark.piermont.com To: Andy Fletcher Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy References: <01052010313804.02065@portable> From: "Perry E. Metzger" Date: 20 May 2001 12:23:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: Andy Fletcher's message of "Sun, 20 May 2001 10:31:38 +0100" Message-ID: <87ae482dlv.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Andy Fletcher writes: > There appears to be a lot of spam on this list at the moment. Most of it > appears to be coming from addresses which probably are not subscribed to the > list. > > If the list posting policy is 'open' can it be changed to 'subscribed > addresses' only? This won't stop legitimate posts as there is no reason to > post to the ietf list unless you are subscribed to it, but will stop > the bulk of the spammers. I've run a lot of lists that way, including some IETF mailing lists, and it has worked out fine. It stops most spam but does not inconvenience most subscribers. Perry From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 14:30:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA12059 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA12006 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08395; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201824.OAA08395@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Andy Fletcher cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 May 2001 10:31:38 BST." <01052010313804.02065@portable> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:24:22 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > This won't stop legitimate posts as there is no reason to > post to the ietf list unless you are subscribed to it where did you get that idea? From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 17:00:56 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA12865 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA12773 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 151a9p-0007Mv-00; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:50:33 +0100 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:50:31 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: "Perry E. Metzger" cc: Andy Fletcher , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy In-Reply-To: <87ae482dlv.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *151a9p-0007Mv-00*tGefr.WPrxg* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On 20 May 2001, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > Andy Fletcher writes: > > There appears to be a lot of spam on this list at the moment. Most of it > > appears to be coming from addresses which probably are not subscribed to the > > list. > > > > If the list posting policy is 'open' can it be changed to 'subscribed > > addresses' only? This won't stop legitimate posts as there is no reason to > > post to the ietf list unless you are subscribed to it That assumption crops up a lot. In the IETF, there's often reason to cross-post to WG lists that you aren't subscribed to, when discussion veers that way. The IESG does that a lot, and 'subscriber only' policies will hold up IESG business as a result. (Recent example: UDLR advanced to proposed standard. IESG mail on same got held up for several days. See Poisson and UDLR list archives.) If spam on this list bothers you, subscribed to ietf-censored instead. If spam in general bothers you, install some mail filters to protect your sensitive eyes. > > but will stop the bulk of the spammers. > > I've run a lot of lists that way, including some IETF mailing lists, > and it has worked out fine. It stops most spam but does not > inconvenience most subscribers. Quite a few IETFers have more than one email address. L. PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 17:10:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA13024 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snark.piermont.com ([206.1.51.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA12796 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by snark.piermont.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 583041E005F; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Sender: perry@snark.piermont.com From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: Lloyd Wood Cc: Andy Fletcher , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy References: Date: 20 May 2001 16:54:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: Lloyd Wood's message of "Sun, 20 May 2001 21:50:31 +0100 (BST)" Message-ID: <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Lines: 39 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Lloyd Wood writes: > In the IETF, there's often reason to cross-post to WG lists that you > aren't subscribed to, when discussion veers that way. The IESG > does that a lot, and 'subscriber only' policies will hold up IESG > business as a result. When you are the maintainer of a list, you can approve postings that get held up because of non-subscriber origins. I do this routinely. Works just fine. If need be, we can just have as policy that the IESG and several other key addresses are always on the "auto-approve" list. Majordomo and other packages make it easy to do that. > If spam in general bothers you, install some mail filters to protect > your sensitive eyes. It is easiest to filter spam through mechanisms like non-subscriber blocks and such. Trying to filter it when it gets to your mailbox is much harder. > > > but will stop the bulk of the spammers. > > > > I've run a lot of lists that way, including some IETF mailing lists, > > and it has worked out fine. It stops most spam but does not > > inconvenience most subscribers. > > Quite a few IETFers have more than one email address. Which is why Majordomo lets you have a seperate list of addresses that can post but don't get the mail. Works beautifully. Perry -- Perry E. Metzger perry@wasabisystems.com -- Quality NetBSD CDs, Support & Service. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 18:31:29 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA13499 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA13462 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 151abH-0007cx-00; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:18:55 +0100 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:18:52 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: "Perry E. Metzger" cc: Andy Fletcher , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy In-Reply-To: <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *151abH-0007cx-00*DvK3CjqcXJ2* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On 20 May 2001, Perry E. Metzger wrote: > Lloyd Wood writes: > > In the IETF, there's often reason to cross-post to WG lists that you > > aren't subscribed to, when discussion veers that way. The IESG > > does that a lot, and 'subscriber only' policies will hold up IESG > > business as a result. > > When you are the maintainer of a list, you can approve postings that > get held up because of non-subscriber origins. I do this > routinely. Works just fine. then you're no longer just the maintainer, but doing moderation. Moderators go on vacation or are otherwise indisposed. Personally speaking, moderation of IETF lists makes me uncomfortable. > > Quite a few IETFers have more than one email address. > > Which is why Majordomo lets you have a seperate list of addresses that > can post but don't get the mail. Works beautifully. and it's something I've yet to see described in a list welcome message. L. PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 18:40:27 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA13631 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gnat.inet.org ([63.108.254.91]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA13608 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mosquito.inet.org (120-242.nanog22.centergate.com [204.74.120.242]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903348266E for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010520183308.00a4e750@gnat.inet.org> X-Sender: rja@gnat.inet.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:36:48 -0400 To: IETF From: RJ Atkinson Subject: IEEE 802 Standards Online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org It appears that IEEE 802 is now making many of their standards available online at no cost in PDF format. Details and limitations of this are available online at: http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/ Please don't ask me any further questions, because the above is all the data I currently have on this topic. Cheers, Ran rja@inet.org From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 19:00:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA13813 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA13760 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09594; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105202255.SAA09594@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Perry E. Metzger" cc: Lloyd Wood , Andy Fletcher , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 May 2001 16:54:14 EDT." <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:55:07 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Perry, a substantial subset of the readers of the ietf list subscribe to the list via some other means - whether ietf-censored or some other sub-list or a web archive. so a list of subscribers to the main ietf list doesn't make a very good filter. personally, I like the ietf-censored filtering model - both because it doesn't place much burden on the secretariat and also because it doesn't invite accusations of censorship toward IETF. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Sun May 20 19:40:22 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA14134 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com ([192.188.61.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA14054 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.12.0.Beta7/8.12.0.Beta7) id f4KNUVhU027101 for ietf@ietf.org env-from ; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:30:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 17:30:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200105202330.f4KNUVhU027101@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > From: Keith Moore > a substantial subset of the readers of the ietf list subscribe to the > list via some other means - whether ietf-censored or some other sub-list > or a web archive. so a list of subscribers to the main ietf list doesn't > make a very good filter. Moreover, the response I received to my complaint about one of the recent incidents could be read as saying the perpetrator is (or was) a subscriber. (The response from what seemed to be someone at the offending ISP was even less clear than the spam.) > personally, I like the ietf-censored filtering model - > both because it doesn't place much burden on the secretariat and also > because it doesn't invite accusations of censorship toward IETF. That's a good point, which might otherwise stated as saying the problem is already almost solved for those who want the list filtered. All that might be missing are: - a note in the IETF subscription welcoming message for new subscribers such as the person who restarted this thread this time directing them to the ietf-censored list if they want to censoring. - perhaps (or not) some spam body filtering on the input to the ietf-censored such as the Distribute Checksum Clearinghouse (DCC). There would be no spam problem if people would not just hit delete or whine about spam where complaining is merely more noise (e.g. here) and instead religiously complain about every unsolicited bulk message to its responsible service provider, including going upstream as far as necessary, and if you find to an unresponsive tier 1, filtering all of its port 25 output. However, at this late date, it's clear that's not going to happen. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 12:01:00 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA11833 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA11654 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:50:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.227.249.18] (ip18.proper.com [165.227.249.18] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07110 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> References: <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:49:18 -0700 To: ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Mailing list policy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org At 4:54 PM -0400 5/20/01, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >When you are the maintainer of a list That assumes that someone is the maintainer of the IETF mailing list. At this moment, that is not the case. You are asking that an additional task be put on one of the IETF Secretariat folks. That's a reasonable request (and one that I would second), but it is not based in current reality. > > Quite a few IETFers have more than one email address. > >Which is why Majordomo lets you have a seperate list of addresses that >can post but don't get the mail. Works beautifully. No, it works clumsily. It requires that someone who wants to post from a different address than the one they are subscribed to must somehow register the alternate address with the list maintainer. Or that the list maintainer must write custom software that enhances the list of allowed-to-post addresses with guesses like "if there is a subscription for foo+listname@bar.com, also allow foo@bar.com; if there is a subscription for foo@bar1.bar2.com, also allow foo@bar2.com". But that will still miss people who are subscribed from foo@homemail.com but posting from foo@workmail.com. (And, yes, I've written such code for the lists IMC and VPNC runs; it is available on request.) --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 13:30:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA14388 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from creeper.bmc.com ([198.207.223.231]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA14228 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dorothy.bmc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by creeper.bmc.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f4LHOg121431 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:24:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from rpresuhn@localhost) by dorothy.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_12836)/8.8.6) id KAA21200 for ietf@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:23:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Randy Presuhn Message-Id: <200105211723.KAA21200@dorothy.bmc.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by creeper.bmc.com id f4LHOg121431 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id NAA14229 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi - > Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:18:52 +0100 (BST) > From: Lloyd Wood > Reply-To: Lloyd Wood > To: "Perry E. Metzger" > cc: Andy Fletcher , ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Mailing list policy > In-Reply-To: <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> > Message-ID: ... > On 20 May 2001, Perry E. Metzger wrote: ... > > Which is why Majordomo lets you have a seperate list of addresses that > > can post but don't get the mail. Works beautifully. > > and it's something I've yet to see described in a list welcome > message. ... It's mentioned in the welcome messages for the disman and agentx working group mailing lists. It works well, as far as I can tell. I wish more mailing lists supported it. ------------------------------------------------------- Randy Presuhn randy_presuhn@bmc.com Voice: +1 408 546-1006 BMC Software, Inc. 1-3141 Fax: +1 408 965-0359 2141 North First Street http://www.bmc.com/ San José, California 95131 USA ------------------------------------------------------- My opinions and BMC's are independent variables. ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 16:10:41 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA17506 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (IDENT:root@[209.151.24.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA17466 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.6]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28148 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca ([3ffe:1ce1:0:fe50:2a0:24ff:feac:5c52]) by nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4LK7iw25679 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK) for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:07:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by marajade.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4LK06L01517 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105212000.f4LK06L01517@marajade.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 May 2001 21:50:31 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:00:06 -0400 From: Michael Richardson X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >>>>> "Lloyd" == Lloyd Wood writes: Lloyd> That assumption crops up a lot. Lloyd> In the IETF, there's often reason to cross-post to WG lists that you Lloyd> aren't subscribed to, when discussion veers that way. The IESG Lloyd> does that a lot, and 'subscriber only' policies will hold up IESG Lloyd> business as a result. Yes, and if one does: foreach ietfwgmailhost { cd ~mailprogram/lists cat | sort -u >>ietf-nomail } and take ietf-nomail as the "subscription list", then things work really well. The list of people on all of the various WG lists may be 10,000 entries, but it is relatively well known. I run 50+ lists this way, and it works very well. See 3.13 of the majordomo FAQ. This "list of lists", alas, would become a spammer/head-hunter target if made too easily accessible, but we already have that problem. I would certainly like to have this on ietf-censored :-) Lloyd> Quite a few IETFers have more than one email address. Yes. Canadian Commuter Challenge Project -- GNU Potato Caboose Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON EMAIL: mcr@commuterchallenge.net for help, email or page at 1-866-231-8608 From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 16:40:27 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA18044 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([216.52.68.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA17913 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ecal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4LKZpq21312 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:35:51 -0400 Sender: francis@localhost.localdomain Message-ID: <3B097C27.30C364ED@ecal.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:35:51 -0400 From: John Stracke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, de, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy References: <200105212000.f4LK06L01517@marajade.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Richardson wrote: > This "list of lists", alas, would become a spammer/head-hunter target if > made too easily accessible, but we already have that problem. In addition, it would mean that anybody subscribed to one IETF list could spam all of them, which would weaken the protection. Today, if you want to spam all of them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. -- /==============================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own.| |Chief Scientist |=============================================| |eCal Corp. |"Baldric, how did you manage to find a turnip| |francis@ecal.com|that cost 400,000 pounds?" "Well, I had to | | |haggle." --Blackadder III | \==============================================================/ From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 16:50:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA18299 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web9101.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.238]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA18267 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010521204850.94491.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.26.249.94] by web9101.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:48:50 PDT Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:48:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Farley Reply-To: sixdrift@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Mailing list policy To: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3B097C27.30C364ED@ecal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --- John Stracke wrote: > Michael Richardson wrote: > > > This "list of lists", alas, would become a spammer/head-hunter > target if > > made too easily accessible, but we already have that problem. > > In addition, it would mean that anybody subscribed to one IETF list > could spam all > of them, which would weaken the protection. Today, if you want to > spam all of > them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. > Impractical, but through software, not impossible. Could readily be automated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 18:00:29 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA19578 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA19551 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22021; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ X-PGP-Key: 2F07A741 ; 78 15 8E 8B C0 06 5D D1 BC 08 05 7F 42 81 7E 90 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: filtering of mailing lists and NATs cc: moore@cs.utk.edu From: Keith Moore Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org it occurs to me that most of the methods that have been proposed for filtering spam from mailing lists have a lot in common with NATs. in both cases, the proponents say (in effect) "if it works for me and for my small set of test cases, it must be okay to impose this on everyone. if some legitimate traffic is excluded by my filters, they is of no consequence - they should be willing to jump through whatever hoops that I believe are appropriate. and if people have to abandon practices that they find useful in order to to get around my filters, that is of no consequence either, because they do not need to be doing those things anyway" Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 19:40:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA20571 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA20519 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010521233740.DZLO1420.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:37:40 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:37:25 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Moore wrote: > > it occurs to me that most of the methods that have been proposed > for filtering spam from mailing lists have a lot in common with NATs. actually, have more in common with firewalls. firewalls serve a filtering purpose, and (gasp!) people have learned to configure proxies into their www, etc, clients. we've gotten over it. and so can it be with mailing lists. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 23:00:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA24296 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA24245 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23542; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105220253.WAA23542@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: grenville armitage cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 May 2001 16:37:25 PDT." <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:53:40 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > > it occurs to me that most of the methods that have been proposed > > for filtering spam from mailing lists have a lot in common with NATs. > > actually, have more in common with firewalls. I beg to differ. People install firewalls to filter their own incoming and/or outgoing traffic. Personally I think firewalls are overrated, but people can filter traffic on their own networks if they want to, using whatever criteria they think best. Those who are complaining about spam on this list have the ability to filter their own incoming traffic. What they're wanting is for someone else to filter their traffic for them, and for everyone else on the list also, using poorly-chosen filtering criteria on which there's no consensus. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 23:30:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA24589 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA24485 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522032125.DWUB27974.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Mon, 21 May 2001 20:21:25 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:21:10 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> <3B09B884.122513B7@arc.corp.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aidan Williams wrote: [..] > To extend the analogy again in the opposite direction: now that > software is available to tunnel random traffic over HTTP, we can > expect firewall filtering to get harder, and become less effective. > Why would this not happen for email lists too? Most spammers strike me as opportunistic and not overly interested in special-case-handling a couple of subscribe-to-send lists, given the hundreds and thousands of target addresses they purchased on a CDROM. Yes, they could get around pre-subscribe schemes. Yet it seems likely most wouldn't bother, and would instead just end up ignoring us. Which would be nice. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 21 23:40:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA25104 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA25012 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522033354.EJQM27974.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Mon, 21 May 2001 20:33:54 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B09DE13.61D2A42C@ureach.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:33:39 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105220253.WAA23542@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Moore wrote: > I beg to differ. People install firewalls to filter their own incoming > and/or outgoing traffic. D'oh. I thought firewalls where also used to filter traffic one did *not* ask for. Stuff that wasn't apriori declared part of one's community of interest. Seemed a reasonable analogy. [..] > Those who are complaining about spam on this list have the ability to > filter their own incoming traffic. Kinda, sorta. No reason not to propose schemes that operate closer to the source, even by one hop. > What they're wanting is for someone > else to filter their traffic for them, Yup. > and for everyone else on the list > also, Right again. > using poorly-chosen filtering criteria on which there's no consensus. It is a fragile universe one inhabits where asking people to subscribe to the community of interest before posting is equated to censorship. If that's what you mean by "poorly-chosen" then... oh well. Thread fizzles to an end. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 00:50:28 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA25846 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 00:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA25823 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 00:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c278425a ([24.9.104.186]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010522044916.JWXP12521.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@c278425a> for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 21:49:16 -0700 Message-ID: <008601c0e27b$780c4a20$ba680918@plano1.tx.home.com> From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: References: <20010521204850.94491.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Mailing list policy Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:55:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking as an IETF WG co-chair, I know the PILC list has gotten spammed by people who also hit every other IETF WG list I was subscribed to. Whether automated or not, it's not as impractical to spam IETF lists as I wish it was. The special thrill I get is when some bonehead does this two weeks before an IETF meeting, of course. Why isn't RUN standing-room-only? Spencer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Farley" To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: Re: Mailing list policy > > --- John Stracke wrote: > > Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > > This "list of lists", alas, would become a spammer/head-hunter > > target if > > > made too easily accessible, but we already have that problem. > > > > In addition, it would mean that anybody subscribed to one IETF list > > could spam all > > of them, which would weaken the protection. Today, if you want to > > spam all of > > them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. > > > > Impractical, but through software, not impossible. Could readily be > automated From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 01:30:22 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA27635 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA27288 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522052442.NUQM21661.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:24:42 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B09F80B.5F42BA11@ureach.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:24:27 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105220511.BAA24592@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Moore wrote: > however, I have seen a couple of occasions where I believe that > a 'moderator' acted inappropriately in filtering messages that > came from non-subscribers but were arguably on-topic for the lists. So the non-subscriber subscribed, and their posts went through okay, right? (If not, and the moderator was in fact filtering all posts to the mailing list in question, then this example is a red-herring.) Gas tanks explode - we ban cars? Cigarette butts cause fires - we ban cigarettes? Moderators go loopy sometimes - we ban subscribe-before-post mailing lists? You got me there, guv! I concede. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 01:40:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA28159 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA27431 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24730; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105220527.BAA24730@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ X-PGP-Key: 2F07A741 ; 78 15 8E 8B C0 06 5D D1 BC 08 05 7F 42 81 7E 90 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: speaking of filtering... cc: moore@cs.utk.edu From: Keith Moore Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:27:20 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I've had two on-topic messages rejected by the IETF list in the past day or so. This does not appear to have happened out of malice or any attempt at censorship, but merely because majordomo's algorithm for distinguishing list maintenance requests from normal traffic is brain-damaged. (trying to avoid using any of the words that it keys on) Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 08:50:42 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA15886 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 08:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.163.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA15672 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 08:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erosen-sun.cisco.com (erosen-sun.cisco.com [161.44.134.50]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4MCh7908384; Tue, 22 May 2001 05:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (erosen@localhost) by erosen-sun.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id IAA01145; Tue, 22 May 2001 08:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221243.IAA01145@erosen-sun.cisco.com> X-Authentication-Warning: erosen-sun.cisco.com: erosen owned process doing -bs To: Keith Moore cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 21 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400. <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> Reply-To: erosen@cisco.com User-Agent: EMH/1.10.0 WEMI/1.13.2 (Mochimune) FLIM/1.12.1 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Nishinoky=F2?=) Emacs/20.6 (sparc-sun-solaris2.5.1) MULE/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by WEMI 1.13.2 - "Mochimune") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:43:01 -0400 From: Eric Rosen X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org So, here are the choices: 1. Save thousands of people from having to deal with multiple spams per day, at the cost of presenting a minor inconvenience to a few, or 2. Require thousands of people to receive and deal with spam (or to learn all about mail filtering), in order to avoid inconveniencing a few. Easy decision to make. For every bit of whining by the usual suspects, there are thousands of folks that are very happy to have the spam kept out of their mailbox automatically. (Every mailing list manager knows that the whining by Keith and Lloyd is nothing compared to the whining by the list members as they get spammed multiple times per day.) Indeed, this is a lot like the arguments re NAT. There are the thousands of people it helps, vs. the few who are yelling that the sky will fall if it is not stamped out. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 09:00:16 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA16242 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU (96-1.nat.psu.ac.th [202.28.96.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA15917 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 08:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4MCq2L03893 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:52:02 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-Reply-To: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> References: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> <3B09B884.122513B7@arc.corp.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:52:02 +0700 Message-ID: <3891.990535922@brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU> Sender: kre@brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:21:10 -0700 From: grenville armitage Message-ID: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> | Most spammers strike me as opportunistic and not overly interested | in special-case-handling a couple of subscribe-to-send lists, Of course, and as long as they can get to the vast majority of their target, it will probably remain that way. But as soon as the spammers need to go to some extra effort to reach their audience, you can be sure they will. Remember, once, they sent from any random invented host name - then everyone started having their mailers reject mail from unknown domains - now all the spam comes from perfectly valid domains, which not only makes the checks for invalid domains a waste of time (the check spends time achieving nothing at all) but also results in all the failed spam (the bounces - and the abuse from people who received it) being dumped on whichever unfortunate site they picked to use as the domain name. A supposed technological fix to a non-technological problem that just made things worse, not better. Now we're having suggested that only "known" e-mail addresses be allowed to send to certain destinations. Assuming that becomes really popular (rather than just used on a small set of irrelevant lists) how long do you think it will be before the spammer's lists of names contain not only the destination address, but the From: address they should use to send to that address? I mean, how hard do you think it is to stick From: gja@ureach.com in the heading of the mail? One more technological fix that won't work. And again, it will make things worse, since then we won't be able to tell easily what is traffic from people we expect to send to the lists, and what is not. This is not a technological problem - it is a social problem. We cannot fix spam by technological means - it has to be fixed by social means. And not only are technological "fixes" making things actually worse as illustrated above, they're also suggesting to people that perhaps there may be a technological fix that will actually finally solve the problem, which lessens the demand for real social fixes instead. Give up, let the spam through, deluge everyone with it - then the opposition to it will rise quickly enough, and become urgent enough, that the correct kind of remedies can be put in place. kre From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 10:00:20 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA18653 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melimelo.enst-bretagne.fr ([192.108.115.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA18461 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rsm.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (rsm.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.1]) by melimelo.enst-bretagne.fr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4MDpbF32937; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:51:37 +0200 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by rsm.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14500; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:51:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4MDpaA32658; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:51:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200105221351.f4MDpaA32658@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: Robert Elz cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 22 May 2001 19:52:02 +0700. <3891.990535922@brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:51:36 +0200 Sender: Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org In your previous mail you wrote: This is not a technological problem - it is a social problem. We cannot fix spam by technological means - it has to be fixed by social means. => thanks for this nice summary about the spam problem! Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 10:10:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA19168 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18655 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x78.ripe.net (x78.ripe.net [193.0.1.78]) by birch.ripe.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17933; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:59:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from leo@localhost) by x78.ripe.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f4MDxqr02430; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:59:52 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:59:52 +0200 From: Leo Vegoda Message-Id: <200105221359.f4MDxqr02430@x78.ripe.net> To: erosen@cisco.com, Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-Reply-To: <200105221243.IAA01145@erosen-sun.cisco.com> References: <200105221243.IAA01145@erosen-sun.cisco.com> X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org You wrote: > So, here are the choices: > > 1. Save thousands of people from having to deal with multiple spams per day, > at the cost of presenting a minor inconvenience to a few, or > > 2. Require thousands of people to receive and deal with spam (or to learn > all about mail filtering), in order to avoid inconveniencing a few. Another similarity to NATs is that you don't know how many people are behind a single (subscribed) address. For instance, I read your message via a local news server. Of course, this means that any attempt to work out the utility value of a filtering system must fail. I'm perfectly happy to filter messages to this list locally. To be frank, it takes a very small amount of my time. Surely people who want to subscribe to this list are capable of setting up local filters? Regards, -leo From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 10:20:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA19513 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18916 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:05:58 -0400 (EDT) From: ned.freed@mrochek.com Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01K3TH8LCW74003GVI@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 22 May 2001 19:52:02 +0700" <3891.990535922@brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU> To: Robert Elz Cc: ietf@ietf.org Message-id: <01K3UTIJR4W4003GVI@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> <3B09B884.122513B7@arc.corp.mot.com> <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:21:10 -0700 > From: grenville armitage > Message-ID: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> > | Most spammers strike me as opportunistic and not overly interested > | in special-case-handling a couple of subscribe-to-send lists, > Of course, and as long as they can get to the vast majority of their > target, it will probably remain that way. > But as soon as the spammers need to go to some extra effort to reach > their audience, you can be sure they will. > ... > Now we're having suggested that only "known" e-mail addresses be allowed > to send to certain destinations. Assuming that becomes really popular > (rather than just used on a small set of irrelevant lists) how long do you > think it will be before the spammer's lists of names contain not only the > destination address, but the From: address they should use to send to that > address? A long time, actually. While it is true that spammers will work around anything that seriously impedes the flow of spam, you have not shown that spam sent to lists is at all important to spammers. Every indication I see is that lists are primarily useful to spammers as a source of addresses to send spam to directly, and less as a target for spamming lots of people indirectly. Indeed, most spammers that send to lists seem totally uninterested in the fact that they are sending to a list; it is simply another address they have culled from some sort of scan. And while there have been some isolated reports of subscribe-then-send and send-using-a-subscriber strategies used by spammers, the frequency of their use appears to be way out of porportion to the number of lists that have successfully fended off spam by using various subscriber-only techniques. > I mean, how hard do you think it is to stick From: gja@ureach.com > in the heading of the mail? Actually, maintaining an additional per-list address and keeping that address up to date is pretty difficult. It is much easier -- and quite effective -- to simply prowl for addresses that reach users directly. > This is not a technological problem - it is a social problem. We cannot > fix spam by technological means - it has to be fixed by social means. In general, I agree with this assessment. But that doesn't mean that some point fixes don't help in some cases. Ned From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 10:30:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA19949 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([216.52.68.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA19631 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ecal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4MENYO22864 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:23:35 -0400 Sender: francis@localhost.localdomain Message-ID: <3B0A6D7F.4E759262@ecal.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:45:35 -0400 From: John Stracke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, de, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy References: <20010521204850.94491.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin Farley wrote: > --- John Stracke wrote: > > Today, if you want to > > spam all of > > them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. (I spoke sloppily, by the way. For "today", read "with separate filters on every list".) > Impractical, but through software, not impossible. Could readily be > automated. If that's so, then subscriber filters won't work; as soon as it becomes profitable to do so, the spamware vendors will include automated subscription features. -- /===============================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own. | |Chief Scientist |==============================================| |eCal Corp. |Whose cruel idea was it for the word "lisp" to| |francis@ecal.com|have an "S" in it? | \===============================================================/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 10:40:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA20494 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uswgne22.uswest.com ([204.26.87.76]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA20361 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from egate-ne2.uswc.uswest.com (egate-ne2.uswc.uswest.com [151.117.64.200]) by uswgne22.uswest.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f4MEcVj07775 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:38:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dubntex011.qwest.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by egate-ne2.uswc.uswest.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f4MEcVC18048 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:38:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: by dubntex011.qwest.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:38:28 -0400 Message-ID: <2D4B6CD74137D4119A1100104BC6BCBF02BA09DC@DUBNTEX006.qwest.net> From: "Willis, Scott L" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Mailing list policy Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:27:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Which is the lesser of the two evils: * Receiving an occasional SPAM Message * Being Bombarded continually with complaints about SPAM Messages The request has been issued to stop spamming on this address. Why don't we return to normal IETF business at hand and just let this issue pass. I'm sure there are others out there who is as fatigued as I am about this moot point. Have a nice day -----Original Message----- From: John Stracke [mailto:francis@ecal.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 9:46 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy Kevin Farley wrote: > --- John Stracke wrote: > > Today, if you want to > > spam all of > > them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. (I spoke sloppily, by the way. For "today", read "with separate filters on every list".) > Impractical, but through software, not impossible. Could readily be > automated. If that's so, then subscriber filters won't work; as soon as it becomes profitable to do so, the spamware vendors will include automated subscription features. -- /===============================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own. | |Chief Scientist |==============================================| |eCal Corp. |Whose cruel idea was it for the word "lisp" to| |francis@ecal.com|have an "S" in it? | \===============================================================/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 11:00:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA21329 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web9103.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.240]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA21052 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010522145452.68644.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.26.249.94] by web9103.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:54:52 PDT Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:54:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Farley Reply-To: sixdrift@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Mailing list policy To: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3B0A6D7F.4E759262@ecal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --- John Stracke wrote: > Kevin Farley wrote: > > > --- John Stracke wrote: > > > Today, if you want to > > > spam all of > > > them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. > > (I spoke sloppily, by the way. For "today", read "with separate > filters > on every list".) > > > Impractical, but through software, not impossible. Could readily be > > automated. > > If that's so, then subscriber filters won't work; as soon as it > becomes > profitable to do so, the spamware vendors will include automated > subscription features. > Exactly. Someone will realize how to make a profit of both sides of the issue. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 11:10:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA21774 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from beatles.cselt.it ([163.162.29.125]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA21436 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from beatles (beatles [163.162.29.125]) by beatles.cselt.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07374 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:00:49 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:00:49 +0200 From: Maurizio Codogno To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: since drums is closed... Message-Id: <20010522170049.6b376832.mau@beatles.cselt.it> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.66 (GTK+ 1.2.8; sparc-sun-solaris2.8) Organization: Telecom Italia Lab Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope someone may give me an answer here, even if the topic is not quite in topic for the list. I was asked to find some information about the email traffic today (number of messages per day, how much of the net traffic is email - is it true that it is still more than web-based traffic?, various oddities) Does anybody have some pointer? thanks and ciao, .mau. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 11:40:23 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA22910 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA22521 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25381; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221530.LAA25381@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: erosen@cisco.com cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 08:43:01 EDT." <200105221243.IAA01145@erosen-sun.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:30:42 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > So, here are the choices: > > 1. Save thousands of people from having to deal with multiple spams per day, > at the cost of presenting a minor inconvenience to a few, or > > 2. Require thousands of people to receive and deal with spam (or to learn > all about mail filtering), in order to avoid inconveniencing a few. you have it backwards. all subscribers of the list are 'inconvenienced' if we discourage legitimate contributions from folks who are not willing to jump through arbitrary and time-consuming hoops that we impose on them just because a few people insisted (even in the face of evidence to the contrary) that they knew what was best for everyone else. calling those hoops a 'minor inconvenience' is also misleading. > Indeed, this is a lot like the arguments re NAT. There are the thousands of > people it helps, vs. the few who are yelling that the sky will fall if it is > not stamped out. the people who are helped by NAT are also hurt by NAT. but they might not realize that NAT is the reason that they cannot deploy IP telephony. they'll blame the new application rather than the NAT because they've been brainwashed into thinking that NAT is the right thing to do, and also because the guy who bought the NATs in the first place is not going to admit that he was wrong. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 11:50:09 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA23308 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA23285 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25645; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: grenville armitage cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 May 2001 22:24:27 PDT." <3B09F80B.5F42BA11@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:49:44 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > > however, I have seen a couple of occasions where I believe that > > a 'moderator' acted inappropriately in filtering messages that > > came from non-subscribers but were arguably on-topic for the lists. > > So the non-subscriber subscribed, and their posts went through okay, > right? no. the WG was badly in need of a clue from folks outside of the WG - because the WG was failing to understand how its work would interact with and/or affect other applications or protocols outside of its purview. the would-be contributor did not want to subscribe to the list because he/she had no desire to participate in the day-to-day conversations of the working group. after all, the contributor normally worked at layer X while the WG was working at layer Y. still, the WG needed the contribution. it would have benefited from knowing that what it was doing was inherently flawed, and that its poorly-informed design decisions would do harm and/or cause its work to be less useful than anticipated. but the capriciousness of the mailing list maintainer prevented this from happening, and many months of hard work were wasted. > (If not, and the moderator was in fact filtering all posts > to the mailing list in question, then this example is a red-herring.) seems like you've left a big hole in your case analysis. > Gas tanks explode - we ban cars? if the gas tanks explode under normal or even occasional use, we do in fact recall the car. you seem to believe that non-subscribers are inherently illegimiate, and that any barriers we erect to make it more difficult for them to post are therefore justified. looks like circular reasoning to me. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 12:30:53 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA24546 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24431 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 152AKu-0004mR-00; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:28:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:28:21 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: grenville armitage cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-Reply-To: <3B09DE13.61D2A42C@ureach.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *152AKu-0004mR-00*Z9W1L6Rut7I* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Mon, 21 May 2001, grenville armitage wrote: > It is a fragile universe one inhabits where asking people to subscribe > to the community of interest before posting is equated to censorship. Be liberal in what you accept. Frankly, I don't think the community of interest happens to directly correspond to the subscription list of a relevant mailing list. Otherwise we wouldn't need web or ftp archives. L. PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 12:40:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA24832 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.163.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24447 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erosen-sun.cisco.com (erosen-sun.cisco.com [161.44.134.50]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4MGQl920471; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (erosen@localhost) by erosen-sun.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id MAA02092; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221626.MAA02092@erosen-sun.cisco.com> X-Authentication-Warning: erosen-sun.cisco.com: erosen owned process doing -bs To: "Christian Huitema" cc: "Keith Moore" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 22 May 2001 09:06:38 -0700. Reply-To: erosen@cisco.com User-Agent: EMH/1.10.0 WEMI/1.13.2 (Mochimune) FLIM/1.12.1 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Nishinoky=F2?=) Emacs/20.6 (sparc-sun-solaris2.5.1) MULE/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by WEMI 1.13.2 - "Mochimune") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:26:40 -0400 From: Eric Rosen X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Christian> I would much rather receive and delete another annoying Christian> proposition to get rich quick or see lurid pictures than tolerate Christian> any form of censorship. As has been pointed out, the non-member messages can be moderated. It takes about one second to look at a message and tell whether it is unsolicited commercial or not. So the downside is that the non-member message may be delayed for a bit until the moderator gets to it. I wouldn't call that censorship. (I think one has to be very privileged indeed to confuse a small inconvenience with censorship.) Unless, of course, you think that people have a RIGHT to send unsolicited commercial email to IETF mailing lists. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 12:50:26 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA25142 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web13807.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.17]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24523 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010522163001.62134.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.12.33.187] by web13807.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:30:01 PDT Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Pyda Srisuresh Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs To: Keith Moore , grenville armitage Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Here is a suggestion. Require people to subscribe to a list to post to the list. This is in addition to requiring subscription to receive posts mailed to the list. Nanog adopts this approach and has been fairly successful in avoiding spam, I believe. Subscription to Post can be made contingent on the subscriber not agreeing to post material that is out of scope for the list and willing to abide by the list administrator's decision to moderate inappropriate postings. Free-for-all type of lists are inherently prone to spam. Thanks. cheers, suresh --- Keith Moore wrote: > > > however, I have seen a couple of occasions where I believe that > > > a 'moderator' acted inappropriately in filtering messages that > > > came from non-subscribers but were arguably on-topic for the lists. > > > > So the non-subscriber subscribed, and their posts went through okay, > > right? > > no. the WG was badly in need of a clue from folks outside of the WG - > because the WG was failing to understand how its work would interact > with and/or affect other applications or protocols outside of its purview. > > the would-be contributor did not want to subscribe to the list because > he/she had no desire to participate in the day-to-day conversations of > the working group. after all, the contributor normally worked at > layer X while the WG was working at layer Y. > > still, the WG needed the contribution. it would have benefited from > knowing that what it was doing was inherently flawed, and that its > poorly-informed design decisions would do harm and/or cause its work > to be less useful than anticipated. > > but the capriciousness of the mailing list maintainer prevented this > from happening, and many months of hard work were wasted. > > > (If not, and the moderator was in fact filtering all posts > > to the mailing list in question, then this example is a red-herring.) > > seems like you've left a big hole in your case analysis. > > > > Gas tanks explode - we ban cars? > > if the gas tanks explode under normal or even occasional use, we do in > fact recall the car. > > you seem to believe that non-subscribers are inherently illegimiate, > and that any barriers we erect to make it more difficult for them to > post are therefore justified. looks like circular reasoning to me. > > Keith > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 13:00:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA25548 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24602 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun-javiani-home (javiani-home-isdn.cisco.com [171.69.187.194]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4MGViU28081; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sun-javiani-home (8.9.3+Sun/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id JAA13326; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Sender: javiani@cisco.com Message-ID: <3B0A9353.6702BC81@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:26:59 -0700 From: James Aviani Organization: Cisco X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: grenville armitage , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forgive me here, but I was pondering the problem of mailing lists filtering last night, and want to float an idea. The problem as I understand it is that non-subscribers to a given mailing list may contribute good ideas or may be spammers. And short of human-directed analysis it's impossible to know whether the email should be forwarded or not. Further, by having only one person decide on what's appropriate, there is the possibility for intentional or inadvertent censorship. Also, it's a significant burden for someone to have to manually filter all of the email from non-subscribers. So here is the idea: For email that comes from non-subscribers, forward it to N subscribers randomly selected from the current subscribers. (Maybe pick from the most recent posters, since they are most likely to be active.) If one of subscribers thinks the mail is useful, he forwards it to the group. If more than one approves, still only one copy goes forward. (Software somewhere would prevent duplicates.) As long N is large enough and picked at random each time it would reduce dramatically the possibility for censorship, fairly share the load, and protect the email list from spammers, yet still allow for non-subscribing folks to contribute. I know this is fairly low-tech, but it seemed like a reasonable and practical solution to spamming. James From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 13:10:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA25926 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from doberman.cwusa.com ([146.135.88.56]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24641 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us-cwi-exc-a10.cwusa.com (us-cwi-exc-a10.cwusa.com [146.135.85.143]) by doberman.cwusa.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4MGWU704861; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by us-cwi-exc-a10.cwi.cablew.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:32:27 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Book, Robert" To: "'Willis, Scott L'" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Mailing list policy Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:32:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Perhaps you might consider this issue from another angle. When you consider the number of person-hours spent dealing with SPAM, you could see that, cumulatively, there are many hours wasted on unsolicited and undesired emails. And, while each instance may be a matter of seconds or minutes, over a year's time, SPAM from all sources constitutes a significant waste of people's time and, thus, the SPAMer is a thief. It is a social problem but it can be resolved with a technical solution. Don't make me come over there, Scott...... :-) "Hey, what do we need this IP stuff for? We got 300 character/second teletype. Who's ever going to need more than that?..........." - Sparky, the 30 year two-wire man. -----Original Message----- From: Willis, Scott L [mailto:scott.willis@qwest.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 10:27 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Mailing list policy Which is the lesser of the two evils: * Receiving an occasional SPAM Message * Being Bombarded continually with complaints about SPAM Messages The request has been issued to stop spamming on this address. Why don't we return to normal IETF business at hand and just let this issue pass. I'm sure there are others out there who is as fatigued as I am about this moot point. Have a nice day -----Original Message----- From: John Stracke [mailto:francis@ecal.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 9:46 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy Kevin Farley wrote: > --- John Stracke wrote: > > Today, if you want to > > spam all of > > them, you have to subscribe to all of them, which is impractical. (I spoke sloppily, by the way. For "today", read "with separate filters on every list".) > Impractical, but through software, not impossible. Could readily be > automated. If that's so, then subscriber filters won't work; as soon as it becomes profitable to do so, the spamware vendors will include automated subscription features. -- /===============================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own. | |Chief Scientist |==============================================| |eCal Corp. |Whose cruel idea was it for the word "lisp" to| |francis@ecal.com|have an "S" in it? | \===============================================================/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 13:20:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA26414 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24782 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26154; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221639.MAA26154@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: erosen@cisco.com cc: "Christian Huitema" , "Keith Moore" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 12:26:40 EDT." <200105221626.MAA02092@erosen-sun.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:39:19 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > As has been pointed out, the non-member messages can be moderated. yes they can. but this requires a moderator who has the time to do it, who can consistently do it in a timely manner, who acts as a spam filter rather censoring content with which he/she does not agree, and who is trusted by everyone (or very nearly everyone) who wants to participate on the list. and yes this is much better than insisting that people subscribe to a list in order to post. and it has worked fairly well for a number of the lists that I run. but I think it would be difficult to find a moderator for the ietf list that meets the above criteria. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 13:30:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA26802 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lorax.whoville.ne.cohesive.com ([64.28.85.37]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24853 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cos@localhost) by lorax.whoville.ne.cohesive.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA20005 for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:40:14 -0400 From: Ofer Inbar To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: closing list posting won't help us much Message-ID: <20010522124014.A6841@lorax.whoville.ne.cohesive.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org A lot of the unwanted, off topic postings we get on the ietf list, seem to be specifically directed at us. For example, the political diatribes from "kysi feryl" (did I spell that right?). People who want to advertise to or spam on the ietf list specifically, will obviously not be turned away by any requirement to pre-register your From: line before posting. Closed posting is fine for small private lists that want to stay private, but this list is too large, public, and visible for it to be appropriate or useful here. -- -- Cos cos@exodus.net -- accessline: 781-273-2380 -- (Ofer Inbar) cos@aaaaa.org -- pager: 800-351-9387 From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 13:40:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA27218 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24887 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26174; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221641.MAA26174@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Pyda Srisuresh cc: Keith Moore , grenville armitage , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 09:30:01 PDT." <20010522163001.62134.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:41:08 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Here is a suggestion. > Require people to subscribe to a list to post to the list. worked great for the NAT WG list, which successfully used this technique to discourage input from people harmed by NAT. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 13:50:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA27526 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA25247 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: ned.freed@mrochek.com Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01K3TH8LCW74003GVI@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 22 May 2001 11:30:42 -0400" <200105221530.LAA25381@astro.cs.utk.edu> To: Keith Moore Cc: erosen@cisco.com, Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Message-id: <01K3UZCGV838003GVI@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200105221243.IAA01145@erosen-sun.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > So, here are the choices: > > 1. Save thousands of people from having to deal with multiple spams per day, > > at the cost of presenting a minor inconvenience to a few, or > > 2. Require thousands of people to receive and deal with spam (or to learn > > all about mail filtering), in order to avoid inconveniencing a few. > you have it backwards. all subscribers of the list are 'inconvenienced' > if we discourage legitimate contributions from folks who are not willing > to jump through arbitrary and time-consuming hoops that we impose on them > just because a few people insisted (even in the face of evidence to the > contrary) that they knew what was best for everyone else. This assumes that list filtering cannot be done sensibly. This assumption is false; it can be done sensibly and is done sensibly all the time. And when it is done sensibly the amount of inconvenience is unnoticeable. Sure, there are plenty of lists that don't do filtering sensibly (including, alas, some IETF WG lists), but there are many others that do. Whether or not list filtering can be sensibly applied to a list with the characteristics of the main IETF list is just a matter of resources. The necessary technologies exist to cope with all the trickiness the IETF list presents and more. All we have to do is agree to apply them and find the resources to make it happen. > calling those hoops a 'minor inconvenience' is also misleading. Only if the lists aren't managed correctly. Keith, I have to say that you are becoming your own worst enemy in this discussion. By insisting on an absolute policy of no filtering at all your ability to influence the policy that eventually is adopted is being compromised. As a result we are increasingly likely to end up with a list policy imposed that doesn't accomodate some aspect of real world behavior that could have been dealt with. I also find the comparisons with NAT to be strained at best. Ned From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 14:10:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA28435 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA25509 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.1.52 by mail2.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 22 May 2001 09:07:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-imc-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 22 May 2001 09:07:11 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 22 May 2001 09:07:07 -0700 Received: from win-msg-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.134]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 22 May 2001 09:06:39 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: filtering of mailing lists and NATs X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:06:38 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Thread-Index: AcDi2Ef4DygTk5ijQ2Kzt3iNtjsgJQAAFCEA From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Keith Moore" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2001 16:06:39.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F1156E0:01C0E2D9] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id MAA25510 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > So, here are the choices: > > > > 1. Save thousands of people from having to deal with multiple spams per > day, > > at the cost of presenting a minor inconvenience to a few, or > > > > 2. Require thousands of people to receive and deal with spam (or to > learn > > all about mail filtering), in order to avoid inconveniencing a few. > > you have it backwards. all subscribers of the list are 'inconvenienced' > if we discourage legitimate contributions from folks who are not willing > to jump through arbitrary and time-consuming hoops that we impose on them > just because a few people insisted (even in the face of evidence to the > contrary) that they knew what was best for everyone else. There is a fine line between "anti-spam" and "censorship." I would much rather receive and delete another annoying proposition to get rich quick or see lurid pictures than tolerate any form of censorship. This translates into an engineering requirement. Anti-spam filters, like all filters generate false positive, i.e. declare as spam something that is in fact legitimate, and false negative, i.e. declare as legitimate a message that in fact is spam. The openness requirement of the IETF translates in a requirement to eliminate "false negative." This is the IETF, we ought to be able to engineer that. -- Christian Huitema From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 14:20:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA29088 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web13806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.16]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA26237 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010522171637.61512.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.12.33.187] by web13806.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:16:37 PDT Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Pyda Srisuresh Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists To: Keith Moore Cc: grenville armitage , ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105221641.MAA26174@astro.cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --- Keith Moore wrote: > > Here is a suggestion. > > > Require people to subscribe to a list to post to the list. > > worked great for the NAT WG list, which successfully used this technique > to discourage input from people harmed by NAT. NAT WG never had a separate subscribe-to-post requirement, FYI. The previous list as well as the current list (hosted by the IETF) required a single subscription to receive as well as to post. With the current list, messages sent by folks not subscribed to the list would be directed to list administrator to permit posting to the list. List administrator would have to manually approve the posting. Now, do you object to a separate subscribe-to-post requirement? Would this discourage or inconvenience you (the occassional non-spam contributor to a non-subscribed-to-receive-list) or the spammer more? If the answer is debatable (or) the frequent spammer is likely to be discouraged at least 50% of the time, the approach is worth a try. > > Keith cheers, suresh ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 14:30:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA29500 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA26251 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522171620.FGTJ21661.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:16:20 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B0A9ED6.72B4BA98@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:16:06 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Wood wrote: > > On Mon, 21 May 2001, grenville armitage wrote: > > > It is a fragile universe one inhabits where asking people to subscribe > > to the community of interest before posting is equated to censorship. > > Be liberal in what you accept. I am not a protocol. I am a human being. cheers, gja ____________________________________________________________________ Grenville Armitage http://members.home.net/garmitage/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 14:40:20 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA29965 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA26460 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26608; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221721.NAA26608@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: ned.freed@mrochek.com cc: Keith Moore , erosen@cisco.com, ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 09:34:08 PDT." <01K3UZCGV838003GVI@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:21:19 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > > > So, here are the choices: > > > > 1. Save thousands of people from having to deal with multiple spams per day, > > > at the cost of presenting a minor inconvenience to a few, or > > > > 2. Require thousands of people to receive and deal with spam (or to learn > > > all about mail filtering), in order to avoid inconveniencing a few. > > > you have it backwards. all subscribers of the list are 'inconvenienced' > > if we discourage legitimate contributions from folks who are not willing > > to jump through arbitrary and time-consuming hoops that we impose on them > > just because a few people insisted (even in the face of evidence to the > > contrary) that they knew what was best for everyone else. > > This assumes that list filtering cannot be done sensibly. This assumption is > false; it can be done sensibly and is done sensibly all the time. And when it > is done sensibly the amount of inconvenience is unnoticeable. Sure, there are > plenty of lists that don't do filtering sensibly (including, alas, some IETF WG > lists), but there are many others that do. I also think that list filtering can be done sensibly, and I agree that this is mostly (though not entirely) a matter of resources. what I am objecting to is the notion that 'sensible filtering' (particularly on the IETF list) equates to 'filtering postings from non-subscribers'. > > calling those hoops a 'minor inconvenience' is also misleading. > > Only if the lists aren't managed correctly. which is, in my experience, all too often the case. and the knowledge required to 'correctly' manage a list seems to be in short supply. it would be useful to collect such knowledge into an RFC. > Keith, I have to say that you are becoming your own worst enemy in this > discussion. By insisting on an absolute policy of no filtering at all your > ability to influence the policy that eventually is adopted is being > compromised. but I have never insisted on such a policy. I have only insisted that it's not appropriate to expect people to subscribe to the list in order to contribute to the discussion. in fact I use various kinds of filtering on the lists that I maintain (different degrees depending on the nature of the list), so I agree that filtering can be useful and appropriate. > As a result we are increasingly likely to end up with a list > policy imposed that doesn't accomodate some aspect of real world behavior that > could have been dealt with. as you might imagine I am also frustrated by the tendency of this kind of debate to polarize people around extreme positions, rather than to encourage brainstorming about solutions that would address the entire spectrum of interests and concerns that are expressed. at the same time, I feel that it's important to argue against proposals for quick fixes that seem shortsighted. we have too many of those already. we need to understand the problem from a variety of perspectives before insisting that our proposed solutions are appropriate to impose on everybody. > I also find the comparisons with NAT to be strained at best. I'm sure we can all come up with examples of 'solutions' that served one interest while harming others, or that served short term goals while doing harm in the long term. NATs aren't an especially unusual example of this, they're just an example that can be understood by most of the list. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 15:10:20 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA01288 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27016 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26684; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221733.NAA26684@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Pyda Srisuresh cc: Keith Moore , grenville armitage , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 10:16:37 PDT." <20010522171637.61512.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:33:04 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Suresh, I don't mind having WG lists moderate contributions from non-subscribers, provided the moderator can act in a timely fashion (say within a day or so) and the moderator allows any post that is even arguably on-topic for the list. for reasons already stated, I doubt that a single moderator could be found for the main ietf list. but I would like to see an experiment with the 'multiple per-message moderators chosen at random from the subcriber list' proposals. the problem with the NAT list was that posts from non-susbcribers were, apparently, simply discarded. as you point out, this has since been fixed. Keith p.s. I don't think the question of whether we inconvience the legitimate poster or the spammer more is the relevant one. a better question is which filtering policy allows our organization to function more effectively - given that 'effectiveness' includes honoring our principle of open participation and being open to good ideas from all sources. > Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Pyda Srisuresh > Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists > > --- Keith Moore wrote: > > > Here is a suggestion. > > > > > Require people to subscribe to a list to post to the list. > > > > worked great for the NAT WG list, which successfully used this technique > > to discourage input from people harmed by NAT. > > NAT WG never had a separate subscribe-to-post requirement, FYI. > > The previous list as well as the current list (hosted by the IETF) > required a single subscription to receive as well as to post. > > With the current list, messages sent by folks not subscribed to the > list would be directed to list administrator to permit posting to > the list. List administrator would have to manually approve the posting. > > Now, do you object to a separate subscribe-to-post requirement? > Would this discourage or inconvenience you (the occassional non-spam > contributor to a non-subscribed-to-receive-list) or the spammer more? > > If the answer is debatable (or) the frequent spammer is likely to be > discouraged at least 50% of the time, the approach is worth a try. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 15:20:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA01618 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from beatles.cselt.it ([163.162.29.125]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27358 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from beatles (beatles [163.162.29.125]) by beatles.cselt.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA13864 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:43:07 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:43:07 +0200 From: Maurizio Codogno To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Message-Id: <20010522194307.1523ae81.mau@beatles.cselt.it> In-Reply-To: <200105221626.MAA02092@erosen-sun.cisco.com> References: <200105221626.MAA02092@erosen-sun.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.66 (GTK+ 1.2.8; sparc-sun-solaris2.8) Organization: Telecom Italia Lab Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In die Tue, 22 May 2001 12:26:40 -0400 Eric Rosen scripsit: > As has been pointed out, the non-member messages can be moderated. It takes > about one second to look at a message and tell whether it is unsolicited > commercial or not. but this means - that there is a person who has the right to decide whether the message is spam or not - that this person is willing to bear the burden for the sake of the whole community. I happen to do this for some lists, but it's a nuisance, I may assure you. ciao, .mau. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 15:40:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA02226 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([216.52.68.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27414 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:46:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ecal.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4MHleO24115 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:47:40 -0400 Sender: francis@localhost.localdomain Message-ID: <3B0AA63A.8B0D000B@ecal.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:47:38 -0400 From: John Stracke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, de, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B0A9353.6702BC81@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Aviani wrote: > So here is the idea: For email that comes from non-subscribers, forward it to > N subscribers randomly selected from the current subscribers. (Maybe pick > from the most recent posters, since they are most likely to be active.) If > one of subscribers thinks the mail is useful, he forwards it to the group. If > more than one approves, still only one copy goes forward. (Software somewhere > would prevent duplicates.) Then you have to educate the subscribers on how to approve messages. -- /===============================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.ecal.com |My opinions are my own. | |Chief Scientist |==============================================| |eCal Corp. |All your problems can be solved by not caring!| |francis@ecal.com| | \===============================================================/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 15:50:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA02494 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chinacat.unicom.com ([192.108.105.34]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27490 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.11.0/8.10.1) id f4MH0ia31425; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:00:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:00:44 -0500 From: Chip Rosenthal To: Maurizio Codogno Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: since drums is closed... Message-ID: <20010522120044.C31157@chinacat.unicom.com> Mail-Followup-To: Maurizio Codogno , ietf@ietf.org References: <20010522170049.6b376832.mau@beatles.cselt.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010522170049.6b376832.mau@beatles.cselt.it>; from mau@beatles.cselt.it on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:00:49PM +0200 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:00:49PM +0200, Maurizio Codogno wrote: > I hope someone may give me an answer here, even if the topic is > not quite in topic for the list. Don't have an answer to your question, but thought I'd point out that most of the DRUMS participants have moved over to the ietf-822 mailing list hosted at imc.org. IIRC ietf-822-request@imc.org should work. -- Chip Rosenthal http://www.unicom.com/ Protect your mail server against spam. http://mail-abuse.org/ Junk email is theft. There ought to be a law. http://www.cauce.org/ "That's not communication. That's gargling." -Geoffrey Nunberg From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 16:00:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA02733 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web9104.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.241]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27610 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010522175332.86147.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.26.249.94] by web9104.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:53:32 PDT Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Farley Reply-To: sixdrift@yahoo.com Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs To: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105221641.MAA26174@astro.cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I think I might set a filter to look for this thread in the subject line of my email and dump it. It only takes a minute to set it up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 16:10:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA03005 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aharp.is-net.depaul.edu ([140.192.91.90]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA27934 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 27684 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 18:01:48 -0000 Received: from aharp.is-net.depaul.edu (HELO depaul.edu) (140.192.91.90) by aharp.is-net.depaul.edu with SMTP; 22 May 2001 18:01:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3B0AA98A.CFB563C1@depaul.edu> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:01:46 -0500 From: John Kristoff Reply-To: jtk@aharp.is-net.depaul.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B0A9353.6702BC81@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Aviani wrote: > I know this is fairly low-tech, but it seemed like a reasonable and practical > solution to spamming. This is a interesting if not good idea. Some of the details may need to be worked out (like perhaps certain people opt in or opt out of being a moderator), but the technical implementation is probably the easy part. If you've given the IETF a solution without causing a theological debate over the 'technical purity' of it, you've left your mark for posterity. John From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 16:20:26 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA03310 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA28130 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.7.67 by mail5.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 22 May 2001 10:22:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 22 May 2001 10:22:30 -0700 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.82]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Tue, 22 May 2001 10:22:29 -0700 Received: from win-msg-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.134]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Tue, 22 May 2001 10:22:01 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: filtering of mailing lists and NATs X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:22:00 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Thread-Index: AcDi3A0tdm3hczIuRCmaGTCeGx+JSQABt6zg From: "Christian Huitema" To: Cc: "Keith Moore" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 May 2001 17:22:01.0061 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6515150:01C0E2E3] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id OAA28131 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Christian> I would much rather receive and delete another > annoying > Christian> proposition to get rich quick or see lurid pictures than > tolerate > Christian> any form of censorship. > > As has been pointed out, the non-member messages can be moderated. It > takes > about one second to look at a message and tell whether it is > unsolicited > commercial or not. So the downside is that the non-member message may > be > delayed for a bit until the moderator gets to it. This is one of many possible implementations. As Keith pointed out, it is much better than any form of automated action, such as closed membership list. The downside is that it is a heavy work on the single "censor"; there are indeed ways to spread the load to multiple editors. > I wouldn't call that > censorship. (I think one has to be very privileged indeed to confuse > a small inconvenience with censorship.) All form of filtering have the potential to drift into censorship. We have seen it with the anti-porn web site filters, and we are indeed seeing accusation of censorship floated against the RBL. For the IETF, we must go to extreme to ensure openness and remove any hint of possible censorship. -- Christian Huitema From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 16:30:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA03597 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA28883 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522181712.DPQG27974.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:17:12 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B0AAD1A.36DD9C75@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:16:58 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> <3B09B884.122513B7@arc.corp.mot.com> <3891.990535922@brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Elz wrote: > | Most spammers strike me as opportunistic and not overly interested > | in special-case-handling a couple of subscribe-to-send lists, > > Of course, and as long as they can get to the vast majority of their > target, it will probably remain that way. Good enough for me. It is said that to avoid a bear, you don't need to be faster than the bear, just faster than someone else in your group ;) [..] > how long do you > think it will be before the spammer's lists of names contain not only the > destination address, but the From: address they should use to send to that > address? Who knows. I suspect it would be a *vastly* long time before the ratio of 'blocked mailing list' to 'personal email addresses' becomes so high that spammers will special-case their code just to target mailing lists. Today mailing lists are accidental inclusions on spammer master target lists. They already deal with email addresses that get stale and bounce, the trick is to convince them our mailing list address is similarly 'stale'. This *is* social engineering, by us, of them, using technology. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 16:40:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA03755 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA29314 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522182520.DYJR27974.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:25:20 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B0AAF02.6FDD42CC@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:25:06 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Social solutions mean lawyers... Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <3B09DB26.AA6383A4@ureach.com> <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B09A6B5.8409572C@ureach.com> <3B09B884.122513B7@arc.corp.mot.com> <3891.990535922@brandenburg.cs.mu.OZ.AU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Elz wrote: [..] > This is not a technological problem - it is a social problem. We cannot > fix spam by technological means - it has to be fixed by social means. If you remove technological means you're left with "Bad spammer, please don't send email to our list". The non-technical escalation path (aka 'social means') then leads to lawyers and politicians thinking they know what's best. Then you'd really see what it feels like to have the wrong weapon brought to bear on a problem. I shudder at the thought. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 16:50:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA03974 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA29939 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522183949.IGGG21661.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:39:49 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B0AB267.81E95BEB@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:39:35 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: A modest proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's an experiment: - Create a read-only list, "ietf-all@ietf.org" - People send email to ietf@ietf.org as usual - If the from: address is a subscriber to ietf@ietf.org, majordomo sends it to the members of ietf@ietf.org and ietf-all@ietf.org - If the from: address is NOT a subscriber to ietf@ietf.org, majordomo sends it only to the people subscribed to ietf-all@ietf.org - Archive posts that end up on ietf-all@ietf.org People who want the complete, unadulterated feed of posts to ietf@ietf.org can subscribe to ietf-all@ietf.org and see everying that is sent to ietf@ietf.org The rest can (remain) subscribe(d) to ietf@ietf.org cheers, gja (who honestly doesn't know enough majordomo to say if this is a 5 min job, or 5 hours hacking) From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 17:10:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA04358 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web13804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.14]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA00466 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010522185100.84928.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.12.33.187] by web13804.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:51:00 PDT Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:51:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Pyda Srisuresh Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists To: Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105221733.NAA26684@astro.cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --- Keith Moore wrote: > Suresh, > > I don't mind having WG lists moderate contributions from non-subscribers, > provided the moderator can act in a timely fashion (say within a day or > so) and the moderator allows any post that is even arguably on-topic for > the list. > Having a separate subscribe-to-post requirement alleviates the burden on the list administartor, at the cost of minor one-time additional inconvenience to the poster. This, in no way, violates the principle of open participation and being open to good ideas from all sources. If a responsible poster still chooses to send a message without subscribing-to-post, then it is not unreasonable if the message posting is delayed by more than a day or is dropped at the discrition of the list moderator(s). On the other hand, if spam is sent automagically to a bunch of lists, the spam will automagically get dropped, unless the spam sender subscribes to each of the lists and violates the posting law. > for reasons already stated, I doubt that a single moderator could be > found for the main ietf list. but I would like to see an experiment > with the 'multiple per-message moderators chosen at random from the > subcriber list' proposals. I am OK with the idea of multiple moderators. Many lists already have multiple moderators. The IESG members, for example, could be the moderators for the IETF list. Unless the moderators group is pre-selected, attempting to select a moderator at random from the subscriber list for each new mailing thread can be at best difficult and at worst a box of pandora. The random selection process in itself can become very hard to manage and will become a giant meta problem in itself. <.. stuff deleted> Thanks. Have a nie day. cheers, suresh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 17:40:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA05055 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-60-068-077.vz.dsl.gtei.net [4.60.68.77]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA03412 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smtp.tndh.net from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 22 May 2001 13:22:53 -0700 Received: from eagleswings [192.168.123.12] by smtp.tndh.net [4.60.68.77] (SLmail 3.2.3113) with SMTP id 7162C574D0BD44F4A2D085417CA313A8 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:22:53 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: Subject: RE: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:22:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 83A0FFE4-EAAA4E99-8DEBEB86-50DBB2E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My mail filters must be very effective. The > 20 messages on this thread in the last 2 days constitute over a months worth of spam I have been aware of. Now if I could only figure out how to construct an automated filter for: if list = IETF and content = 'personal inconvenience rant' then permanently delete Tony FWIW: I agree with Keith's original tenant that technology applied without my express awareness & consent (like NAT in the general case) is inappropriate. I also agree with KRE that spam is a social rather than technical problem, and any centralized technical approach will be worked around. Rather than complain that someone else is not doing the work, maybe those who don't want to take the time to construct their own filters should ask the list if anyone else might be running their favorite mail tool and is willing to share an existing rule set. If you want to make sure I never see your message just include the strings '$' or 'subscribe' in the subject, or send with any of these strings anywhere in the header: @none 163.net 163.com 21cn.edu.cn 263.net 263.com 363.net 363.com auxaux.com china.com sina.com cn99.com com.cn cpri.net dicult.co.jp dta.net.cn elong.com f9.mail.ru fj.cn fj.fz.cn jx.cn Kysi Ferul kyungin-c.ac.kr mediforums.com nbzh.com netease.com xxx@ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 18:00:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA05354 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.internet2.edu (root@[209.211.239.181]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA04398 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cain.internet2.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.internet2.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1/Debian 8.11.0-6) with ESMTP id f4MLBnY24720 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:11:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.internet2.edu: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be cain.internet2.edu Received: by cain.internet2.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DF0E35A1; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Sender: shalunov@cain.internet2.edu To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> <3B0A9353.6702BC81@cisco.com> <3B0AA63A.8B0D000B@ecal.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 22 May 2001 17:11:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3B0AA63A.8B0D000B@ecal.com> Message-ID: <87n185rsvf.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org John Stracke writes: [Randomly selected moderators.] > Then you have to educate the subscribers on how to approve messages. Include a short explanation in the message of why it is sent, and offer to follow a URL to approve the message. One of the randomly choosen subscribers presumably knows how to follow a link. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at 600 mph. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 18:10:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA05578 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com ([192.188.61.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA04428 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.12.0.Beta7/8.12.0.Beta7) id f4MLCZ0V014368 for ietf@ietf.org env-from ; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:12:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:12:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200105222112.f4MLCZ0V014368@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > From: grenville armitage > ... > Who knows. I suspect it would be a *vastly* long time before the > ratio of 'blocked mailing list' to 'personal email addresses' becomes > so high that spammers will special-case their code just to target > mailing lists. Today mailing lists are accidental inclusions on spammer > master target lists. That last is clearly false for much of the spam that hits IETF lists. At least some spammers evidently already understand that one message through a working and large list will hit a lot of valid addresses, often very well "targeted" addresses. Besides, mailing list traffic tends to be "white listed" and so bypass individual spam filters. > They already deal with email addresses that get > stale and bounce, Serious spammer do not care about stale or bouncing addresses. That's demonstrated by the "dictionary attack" spammers who have lists of 100's to 1000's of user names that they try at every domain they hit. If you have a vanity domain, then watching for dictionary attack bounces and they wiring those addresses to automated body filters can be very effective measured in low false positives and false negatives. > the trick is to convince them our mailing list address > is similarly 'stale'. This *is* social engineering, by us, of them, > using technology. That assumes that that spammers prune their lists. However, they clearly do not. My best body spam trap address today is a misspelling of my username that first started getting hit several years ago, and that has *never* been valid, and bounced for years until I recently wired it to body filters. The mispelling was apparently a harvesting software bug, because many other people reported seeing equivalent bad addreses. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 18:20:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA05799 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com ([208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA04753 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.227.249.18] (ip18.proper.com [165.227.249.18] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07052 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010522120044.C31157@chinacat.unicom.com> References: <20010522170049.6b376832.mau@beatles.cselt.it> <20010522120044.C31157@chinacat.unicom.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:27:34 -0700 To: ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: since drums is closed... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org At 12:00 PM -0500 5/22/01, Chip Rosenthal wrote: >On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:00:49PM +0200, Maurizio Codogno wrote: > > I hope someone may give me an answer here, even if the topic is > > not quite in topic for the list. > >Don't have an answer to your question, but thought I'd point out >that most of the DRUMS participants have moved over to the ietf-822 >mailing list hosted at imc.org. The folks who want to talk about message formats have moved there. The folks who want to talk about message transport have moved to ietf-smtp. DRUMS was covering two different topics. >IIRC ietf-822-request@imc.org should work. Yup, and ietf-smtp-request@imc.org will get you the companion list. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 19:20:23 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA06766 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA06679 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010522231550.VXMQ1420.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:15:50 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B0AF318.BB322514@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:15:36 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105222112.f4MLCZ0V014368@calcite.rhyolite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vernon Schryver wrote: [..] > Besides, mailing list traffic tends to be > "white listed" and so bypass individual spam filters. Which is why some of us would encourage the use of techniques that make mailing lists less attractive to opportunistic spammers. I feel dizzy. cheers, gja From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 21:00:27 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA07832 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA07685 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from erosen-sun.cisco.com (erosen-sun.cisco.com [161.44.134.50]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4N0nq922276; Tue, 22 May 2001 17:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (erosen@localhost) by erosen-sun.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id UAA02954; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105230049.UAA02954@erosen-sun.cisco.com> X-Authentication-Warning: erosen-sun.cisco.com: erosen owned process doing -bs To: Maurizio Codogno cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 22 May 2001 19:43:07 +0200. <20010522194307.1523ae81.mau@beatles.cselt.it> Reply-To: erosen@cisco.com User-Agent: EMH/1.10.0 WEMI/1.13.2 (Mochimune) FLIM/1.12.1 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Nishinoky=F2?=) Emacs/20.6 (sparc-sun-solaris2.5.1) MULE/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by WEMI 1.13.2 - "Mochimune") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:49:51 -0400 From: Eric Rosen X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Maurizio> but this means Maurizio> - that there is a person who has the right to decide whether the Maurizio> message is spam or not Maurizio> - that this person is willing to bear the burden for the sake of the Maurizio> whole community. Maurizio> I happen to do this for some lists, but it's a nuisance, I may Maurizio> assure you. I do this for the mailing list of the MPLS working group, so I'm aware of what a nuisance it is. But as far as mailing list management goes, it's not nearly as big a nuisance as trying to figure out which of the error messages to owner-mpls are bogus and which are real. (The mailing list has 3000 members and each message to it results in 100 error messages.) It's not hard to decide whether a particular message is unsolicited commercial email or not, that's not something that people disagree about. From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 21:30:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA08121 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calcite.rhyolite.com ([192.188.61.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA08001 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vjs@localhost) by calcite.rhyolite.com (8.12.0.Beta7/8.12.0.Beta7) id f4N1InFr018519 for ietf@ietf.org env-from ; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:18:49 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:18:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Vernon Schryver Message-Id: <200105230118.f4N1InFr018519@calcite.rhyolite.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > From: grenville armitage > > Besides, mailing list traffic tends to be > > "white listed" and so bypass individual spam filters. > > Which is why some of us would encourage the use of > techniques that make mailing lists less attractive > to opportunistic spammers. > > I feel dizzy. I've run spam filters for a big commercial outfit, where people reasonably preferred to deal with spam than to fail to communicate with customers or prospects. In such situations, unless your false positive rate rejects fewer than 1 legitimate message per month, you should be castigated and your filters turned off. IETF lists have sufficient reasons to be just as open. All of the proposals for filtering the IETF's lists would have false postive rates far worse than 1/month, where delays of more than 24 hours count as a false positive. Because of the nature of the traffic on the main IETF list, I suspect the false positive rate would be approach 10% (except in threads like this where the false negative rate be about 100%, because we're all subscribers making this noise). In other words, there are reasons why I only suggested that the IETF-filtered list use the DCC body filtering. There is something else about the proposals to impose additional filters on this list that really bugs me. I suspect that many of those demanding that this list be filtered did not bother to do anything about the recent spam, while those of us opposed all did do something. There is only one thing that prevents those who want a spam-free IETF list from having it. In theory, someone could subscribe a reflector to the main list or the overseas filtered list, and then run it like an ordinary moderated list. Others who want such filtering could subscribe to it. In theory, everyone would be happy. Unfortunately, there is that one thing preventing global contentment. At least one of those who want such filtering would have to do some extra work. This obviously would not implement or run itself with the demands that someone else take care of it. Vernon Schryver vjs@rhyolite.com From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 21:40:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id VAA09174 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA08044 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id SAA27423 for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:26:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105230126.SAA27423@shell9.ba.best.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: perspective X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org It took a few seconds to ignore the spurts of spam that started the recent mailing list policy threads, but I am now dozens of messages behind, trying to read and carefully consider all of the resulting insightful and witty comments. What needs filtering, again? Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 22:50:29 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA10909 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA10823 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010523024242.DEAY18907.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:42:42 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B0B2395.7B08F738@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:42:29 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: focus Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: <200105230118.f4N1InFr018519@calcite.rhyolite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vernon Schryver wrote: [..] > IETF lists have sufficient reasons to be just as open. All of the > proposals for filtering the IETF's lists would have false postive rates > far worse than 1/month, where delays of more than 24 hours count as a > false positive. I think you're exaggerating a few things. First, the main proposal in this thread is subscribe-before-post, which suffers no false positives if you... ummm... subscribe before you post. Second, since when has the IETF's activities been so urgent that a 24hr delay on a "I forgot to subscribe before posting" email would be mind-blowingly critical? (IMO, never. But hey, I take walks in the sun every so often...) I don't recall this thread seriously focusing on content filtering (*being* filtered, sure ;) [..] > There is only one thing that prevents those who want a spam-free IETF list > from having it. Since I don't recall seeing absolute 'spam-free'-ness being a design goal, I'm not sure who "those" people are. But then again, I take walks.... cheers, gja ____________________________________________________________________ Grenville Armitage http://members.home.net/garmitage/ From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 22 23:50:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA11961 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torque.pothole.com ([38.138.52.132]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA11919 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by torque.pothole.com (8.9.3/1.1.29.3/11Jan01-1206AM) id XAA0000019125; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105230345.XAA0000019125@torque.pothole.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 11:49:44 EDT." <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:45:06 -0400 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" X-Mts: smtp X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Keith, Why do you keep pretending that sending mail to the main submission address is the only way to get a message out on a mailing list and that there isn't immense harm done by spam? What about months of work wasted because a WG didn't get the input of those driven away by spam? If you have trouble submitting mail to a WG maiiling list, or even think you might, why not just send mail to the chair and ask them to post it? Wouldn't it be their job to do so if it was at all relevant? Limitations on absolutely free direct immediate posting have negative effects and *positive* effects. The right balance is different for different mailing lists. Donald From: Keith Moore Message-Id: <200105221549.LAA25645@astro.cs.utk.edu> To: grenville armitage cc: ietf@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 May 2001 22:24:27 PDT." <3B09F80B.5F42BA11@ureach.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:49:44 -0400 >> > however, I have seen a couple of occasions where I believe that >> > a 'moderator' acted inappropriately in filtering messages that >> > came from non-subscribers but were arguably on-topic for the lists. >> >> So the non-subscriber subscribed, and their posts went through okay, >> right? > >no. the WG was badly in need of a clue from folks outside of the WG - >because the WG was failing to understand how its work would interact >with and/or affect other applications or protocols outside of its purview. > >the would-be contributor did not want to subscribe to the list because >he/she had no desire to participate in the day-to-day conversations of >the working group. after all, the contributor normally worked at >layer X while the WG was working at layer Y. > >still, the WG needed the contribution. it would have benefited from >knowing that what it was doing was inherently flawed, and that its >poorly-informed design decisions would do harm and/or cause its work >to be less useful than anticipated. > >but the capriciousness of the mailing list maintainer prevented this >from happening, and many months of hard work were wasted. > >> (If not, and the moderator was in fact filtering all posts >> to the mailing list in question, then this example is a red-herring.) > >seems like you've left a big hole in your case analysis. > > >> Gas tanks explode - we ban cars? > >if the gas tanks explode under normal or even occasional use, we do in >fact recall the car. > >you seem to believe that non-subscribers are inherently illegimiate, >and that any barriers we erect to make it more difficult for them to >post are therefore justified. looks like circular reasoning to me. > >Keith > From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 02:10:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id CAA24363 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 02:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web14108.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.172.138]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA16446 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 01:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010523055950.38729.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.116.98.193] by web14108.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:59:50 PDT Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:59:50 -0700 (PDT) From: grant mcdonald Subject: Re: perspective To: "James P. Salsman" , ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105230126.SAA27423@shell9.ba.best.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org what needs filtering is all this pointless commentary on SPAM. i assure you all that somebody, somewhere...probably several somebodies...are working on the problem. until then, do what i do: delete it i get 250+ emails a day, and only about 5 of them are spam. that tells me my filter works pretty good. if i can suffer through the other 245, and not get worked up about deleting the 5, then noone else should be uptight about it either. my next point is that today i recieved approx 35 emails from IETF members and list subscribers, complaining about spam. that's 30 MORE than the spam i got today. so i'll ask the same question James did: "what needs filtering?" rgmc AIM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 03:00:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA27675 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 03:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from beatles.cselt.it ([163.162.29.125]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA27186 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 02:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from beatles (beatles [163.162.29.125]) by beatles.cselt.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13465 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:50:35 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:50:35 +0200 From: Maurizio Codogno To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Message-Id: <20010523085035.49688468.mau@beatles.cselt.it> In-Reply-To: <200105230049.UAA02954@erosen-sun.cisco.com> References: <20010522194307.1523ae81.mau@beatles.cselt.it> <200105230049.UAA02954@erosen-sun.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.66 (GTK+ 1.2.8; sparc-sun-solaris2.8) Organization: Telecom Italia Lab Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In die Tue, 22 May 2001 20:49:51 -0400 Eric Rosen scripsit: > I do this for the mailing list of the MPLS working group, so I'm aware of > what a nuisance it is. But as far as mailing list management goes, it's not > nearly as big a nuisance as trying to figure out which of the error messages > to owner-mpls are bogus and which are real. (The mailing list has 3000 > members and each message to it results in 100 error messages.) mailman seems to have an automated way to put subscribers whose email bounces out of the list, but I must confess I prefer to look at the errors and decide case per case. Luckily, my lists have at most 400 users. ciao, .mau. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 04:20:42 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id EAA28977 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 04:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [192.11.222.163]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA28941 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 04:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.1.1/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f4N8Ipo20729 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 04:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.1.1/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f4N8Ipq20715 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 04:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:18:50 +0200 Message-ID: <114DE1AABD7DD41189B600508BAF1271028A9A1D@nl0006exch005u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Mak, L (Leen)" To: "'ietf@ietf.org'" Cc: "Mak, L (Leen)" Subject: RE: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:18:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Can someone remind me what "spamming" exactly is? From what I see in my inbox I must assume it is something like boring 1000s of ietf subscribers with tens of emails on "filtering of mailing lists". Am I right? Leen Mak. > -----Original Message----- > From: Maurizio Codogno [mailto:mau@beatles.cselt.it] > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:51 > To: ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs > > > In die Tue, 22 May 2001 20:49:51 -0400 > Eric Rosen scripsit: > > > > I do this for the mailing list of the MPLS working group, > so I'm aware of > > what a nuisance it is. But as far as mailing list > management goes, it's not > > nearly as big a nuisance as trying to figure out which of > the error messages > > to owner-mpls are bogus and which are real. (The > mailing list has 3000 > > members and each message to it results in 100 error messages.) > > mailman seems to have an automated way to put subscribers whose email > bounces out of the list, but I must confess I prefer to look at the > errors and decide case per case. Luckily, my lists have at > most 400 users. > > ciao, .mau. > From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 08:50:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA03177 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lowblow.svc.tds.net ([204.246.1.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA02426 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tds.net ([208.137.90.30]) by lowblow.svc.tds.net with ESMTP id <20010523122916.DEZP29822.lowblow@tds.net>; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:29:16 -0500 Message-ID: <3B0BAD87.A560A163@tds.net> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:31:03 -0400 From: "Patricia A. Holden" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grant mcdonald CC: "James P. Salsman" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: perspective References: <20010523055950.38729.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thank you, my sentiments exactly! grant mcdonald wrote: > what needs filtering is all this pointless commentary > on SPAM. i assure you all that somebody, > somewhere...probably several somebodies...are working > on the problem. > until then, do what i do: delete it > i get 250+ emails a day, and only about 5 of them are > spam. that tells me my filter works pretty good. if i > can suffer through the other 245, and not get worked > up about deleting the 5, then noone else should be > uptight about it either. > > my next point is that today i recieved approx 35 > emails from IETF members and list subscribers, > complaining about spam. > > that's 30 MORE than the spam i got today. > > so i'll ask the same question James did: > "what needs filtering?" > > rgmc > AIM > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 09:00:08 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA03535 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ahab.tic.siemens.ca ([64.26.131.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA02511 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by ahab.tic.siemens.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08396; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman(172.21.24.8) by ahab.tic.siemens.ca via smap (V2.1) id xma008394; Wed, 23 May 01 08:30:06 -0400 Received: (from mail@localhost) by mailman.innovation.siemens.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA25346; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ticsmtp1.innovation.siemens.ca(172.21.24.34) by mailman.innovation.siemens.ca via smap (V2.1) id xma025271; Wed, 23 May 01 08:29:19 -0400 Received: by ticsmtp1.innovation.siemens.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:29:03 -0400 Message-ID: From: David Sharp To: "'grant mcdonald'" , "James P. Salsman" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: perspective Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:28:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Thank You! -----Original Message----- From: grant mcdonald [mailto:rgrantmcd@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 2:00 AM To: James P. Salsman; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: perspective what needs filtering is all this pointless commentary on SPAM. i assure you all that somebody, somewhere...probably several somebodies...are working on the problem. until then, do what i do: delete it i get 250+ emails a day, and only about 5 of them are spam. that tells me my filter works pretty good. if i can suffer through the other 245, and not get worked up about deleting the 5, then noone else should be uptight about it either. my next point is that today i recieved approx 35 emails from IETF members and list subscribers, complaining about spam. that's 30 MORE than the spam i got today. so i'll ask the same question James did: "what needs filtering?" rgmc AIM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 09:20:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA04243 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA03486 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02330; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105231259.IAA02330@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 23:45:06 EDT." <200105230345.XAA0000019125@torque.pothole.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:59:00 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Keith, > > Why do you keep pretending that sending mail to the main submission > address is the only way to get a message out on a mailing list and > that there isn't immense harm done by spam? where do you get off claiming that I'm pretending either of these things? I'm only claiming that one particular method of spam filtering - that of expecting people to s u b s c r i b e before posting - (yes, even to a "allow me to post list") is not appropriate for IETF lists. > What about months of work > wasted because a WG didn't get the input of those driven away by spam? that's equally as bad as the months of work wasted because the WG didn't get the input of someone driven away by the spam filter, of course. > If you have trouble submitting mail to a WG maiiling list, or even > think you might, why not just send mail to the chair and ask them to > post it? what makes you think that I haven't done so? of course, when the message gets forwarded by the WG chair, sometimes there's a delay of several days, and often the message gets forwarded as if it's from the chair (forwarded, rather than resent), with > marks down the left side, and since my email address isn't in the message header, I don't get the replies to the message. and in a couple of cases the chair has failed to post the message even though it was squarely on topic for the list. > Wouldn't it be their job to do so if it was at all relevant? certainly I think so. > Limitations on absolutely free direct immediate posting have negative > effects and *positive* effects. The right balance is different for > different mailing lists. I've never claimed otherwise. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 09:30:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA04580 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com ([171.71.163.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA04134 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4NDHNU24114; Wed, 23 May 2001 06:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex (rtp-vpn-36.cisco.com [10.82.192.36]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AGP17298; Wed, 23 May 2001 06:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <030701c0e38a$c5005820$d45904d1@cisco.com> From: "Melinda Shore" To: "Patricia A. Holden" , "grant mcdonald" Cc: "James P. Salsman" , References: <20010523055950.38729.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com> <3B0BAD87.A560A163@tds.net> Subject: Re: perspective Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:17:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: Patricia A. Holden >To: grant mcdonald >Cc: James P. Salsman ; >Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:31 AM >Subject: Re: perspective > thank you, my sentiments exactly! > > grant mcdonald wrote: > > > what needs filtering is all this pointless commentary > > on SPAM. I kinda don't get why all these people who are extolling the virtues and values of mail filtering are complaining about mailing list content. Aren't you actually arguing against your own position by complaining? I think discussion of policy and process has value, particularly if the IETF is going to continue to try to 1) keep the process open and 2) do the bulk of its work on mailing lists. Melinda From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 10:50:41 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA06384 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from one.elistx.com ([209.116.252.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA06320 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0GDS00K9UMH8GF@eListX.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:49:06 -0400 (EDT) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: <200105212200.SAA22021@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Keith, Your NAT analogy is weak, very weak, at best. It's opening premise is flawed, as is this entire discussion of mail list filtering, because it confuses policy with implementation. The IETF has a policy of "openness" for all its mailing lists. The problem is most of the argument against filtering defines openness as "all messages shall be distributed." This is false. Every IETF mailing list has a charter, a known purpose for its use. It is entirely reasonable and legitimate to reject all submissions that are outside the scope of the charter. If we can not agree on that point this whole discussion is pointless. Implementation is wholly separate from policy, and a primary concern for the list maintainer. A list maintainer needs to figure out how to identify messages that are within scope and ideally would like to automate that process. I would assert they can do this without anyone's approval or guidance. The only issue anyone in the IETF can have with that is if the list maintainer has a skewed sense of "within scope" or if whatever process they use generates false positives. But you can not know this until after the fact. We do so many things in this "organization" on the basis of "subjective judgement with after decision peer review," (less so now than even just 5 years ago but still) why should this be any different? Mail filtering is not in and of itself a bad thing. It is a tool, a legitimate tool, that when used as part of a larger solution to the problem of maintaining the integrity of a mailing list is extremely valuable. Restricting the posting of messages to subscribers is not bad, it is an excellent choice for the first line defense against off-topic messages. The issue is whether it is the only solution employed. Messages from non-subscribers need to be reviewed to determine if they are within scope. In a worst case this review is done manually but it doesn't need to be. There are a few (I mean less than 5) additional technological criteria that can be applied that will correctly review 95% or more of the non-subscriber messages. This minimizes the manual work. I know this because I do this and have been doing it for years. I have a 100% success rate at keeping spam off mailing lists and no complaints. The total volume of email I deal with far exceeds the needs of all the IETF lists combined. This is not rocket science. Furthermore, I don't see how the occasional 24-48 hour delay in getting an occasional message distributed is bad. So many people have this idealistic view of email immediacy. Have you ever really looked at the Received: lines for messages distributed to the main IETF list? Messages to me typically take about 6 hours to get delivered but I've seen delays as long as 18 hours. And the delay is *not* at my end. Jim On Mon, 21 May 2001, Keith Moore wrote: Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: ietf@ietf.org Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: filtering of mailing lists and NATs it occurs to me that most of the methods that have been proposed for filtering spam from mailing lists have a lot in common with NATs. in both cases, the proponents say (in effect) "if it works for me and for my small set of test cases, it must be okay to impose this on everyone. if some legitimate traffic is excluded by my filters, they is of no consequence - they should be willing to jump through whatever hoops that I believe are appropriate. and if people have to abandon practices that they find useful in order to to get around my filters, that is of no consequence either, because they do not need to be doing those things anyway" Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 12:10:47 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA08462 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sapphire.int.ipverse.com ([65.195.29.42]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA08401 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from matt.ipverse.com (MATT [10.1.1.215]) by sapphire.int.ipverse.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id LB71STY6; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:08:06 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010523082316.02ca24e0@mail.ipverse.com> X-Sender: matt@mail.ipverse.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:33:54 -0700 To: Keith Moore , "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" From: Matt Holdrege Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105231259.IAA02330@astro.cs.utk.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org At 05:59 AM 5/23/2001, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > What about months of work > > wasted because a WG didn't get the input of those driven away by spam? > >that's equally as bad as the months of work wasted because the WG >didn't get the input of someone driven away by the spam filter, of course. Keith, there are several barriers of entry for people who wish to work on Internet protocols. There are financial barriers, time barriers and most of all, educational barriers. We all have to learn how email lists work (some of us had to learn USENET), just as we all had to learn how to access the Internet. It is incumbent on the participant to move up the learning curve and follow the email list policy even if that includes extra effort. If that policy includes subscription, then you just have to go along with it, onerous or not. The Internet doesn't bend to individuals. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 13:10:42 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA10081 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA09841 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04220; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105231703.NAA04220@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Matt Holdrege cc: Keith Moore , "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 May 2001 08:33:54 PDT." <5.1.0.14.2.20010523082316.02ca24e0@mail.ipverse.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:03:18 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Keith, there are several barriers of entry for people who wish to work on > Internet protocols. There are financial barriers, time barriers and most of > all, educational barriers. We all have to learn how email lists work (some > of us had to learn USENET), just as we all had to learn how to access the > Internet. It is incumbent on the participant to move up the learning curve > and follow the email list policy even if that includes extra effort. If > that policy includes subscription, then you just have to go along with it, > onerous or not. The Internet doesn't bend to individuals. no disagreement about the general argument - we have to understand how to use our technology. and from time to time we have to learn to use new technologies. but subscribe-before-post is not inherently a feature of mailing lists. we have a choice about whether to impose that extra hump in the learning curve. my argument is that a choice to do so, for the specific case of IETF lists, is a poor one. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 13:20:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA10327 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA10173 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04291; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105231712.NAA04291@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: James M Galvin cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 May 2001 12:35:53 EDT." Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:12:37 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org -------- (maybe the above will fool majordomo into not filtering this message?) > On Wed, 23 May 2001, Keith Moore wrote: > > > Every IETF mailing list has a charter, a known purpose for its use. It > > is entirely reasonable and legitimate to reject all submissions that are > > outside the scope of the charter. If we can not agree on that point > > this whole discussion is pointless. > > I couldn't disagree with you more. > > It's one thing for a chair to point out that a topic is not within the > list's charter, and quite another thing for someone to arbitrarily filter > material that he/she doesn't think is within the list's charter. > > So your point is simply that you want the decisions of what is in scope > and what is not to be visible? that's only one aspect of filtering list traffic based on the From address. It's not the only issue of concern. > In any case, you delegate the job to the Chair. no, even the Chair should not be filtering messages based on whether he/she thinks they are in scope, for reasons stated previously. correcting people who post off-topic contributions is okay; editing or censoring those contributions is not. the only way to make those contributions (and the Chair's corrective action) sufficiently visible is to allow both to be posted to the list. > I suspect you're equating list maintainer with the sysadmin who manages > the technology. In that case I largely agree with your assessment > above. However, more generally, we are talking about a moderator (not a > censor). In that case, the criteria used really does depend on the > competence of the moderator, but I really don't see a big issue here. > It seems to me we choose a moderator much the same way we choose a Chair > of a working group. no, I reject the entire concept of a moderator on an IETF list to do anything other than filter obvious spam. I don't care who is doing the censoring - the chair, the AD, the list maintainer, or someone else. It's inappropriate no matter who does it. > > Mail filtering is not in and of itself a bad thing. It is a tool, a > > legitimate tool, that when used as part of a larger solution to the > > problem of maintaining the integrity of a mailing list is extremely > > valuable. > > I don't disagree with this statement as a generality. But the way > that you suggest that the tool be used would destroy the integrity > of the mailing list as a vehicle for open discussion rather than > maintaining it. > > I don't see how. I'm suggesting that filtering can be used to automate > some of the process of maintaining the integrity of a mailing list and > open discussion. I don't understand how you turned that around. because a discussion in which some participants' input are censored is not an open discussion. it lacks integrity because it pretends to be an open discussion when in reality it is subject to control and/or censorship, and this has a chilling effect on the discussion and on the result. > > Restricting the posting of messages to subscribers is not bad, it is an > > excellent choice for the first line defense against off-topic messages. > > Once again I empatically disagree. Whether a posting comes from a > subscriber is completely orthogonal to whether the message is on topic. > > I agree. To complete my thinking I would add that most IETF lists are > pretty good at being self-policing, as far as managing subscribers is > concerned. In that context, if a subscriber starts moving "outside > scope" we deal with that pretty well. Thus, it's not that subscribers > are always on topic, it's that we know how to deal with subscribers who > are off-topic. and we should use the same mechanism for dealing with non-subscribers are off-topic. whether a contributor is a subscriber is irrelevant. > The issue here is whether it is appropriate at all. Nobody has argued > that other solutions could not be considered. > > As I asked above I will ask again here, is it that you are opposed to > mail filtering as a tool or mail filtering behind closed doors? mail filtering as a tool for bringing messages to the attention of a moderator is okay, but that moderator's role should be limited to filtering obvious spam. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 13:50:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA11014 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA10895 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id KAA19413 for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:45:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105231745.KAA19413@shell9.ba.best.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: http://ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf-all X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Speaking of ietf-all, where is it archived? Cheers, James P.S. It is not the list that grenville armitage modestly proposed. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 23 15:30:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA12833 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA12723 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 152ZsW-0004r1-00; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:44:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:44:42 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-Reply-To: <200105230345.XAA0000019125@torque.pothole.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *152ZsW-0004r1-00*ZE8ZnLWFXO.* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Tue, 22 May 2001, Donald E. Eastlake 3rd wrote: > that there isn't immense harm done by spam? What about months of work > wasted because a WG didn't get the input of those driven away by spam? In the allegedly practically-focused networking world of the IETF, the input of those driven away because they're just incapable of coping with unsolicited mail is hardly likely to be worth much. robustness in, robustness out. L. PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 24 17:51:01 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA21534 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alps.ca.semagroup.com ([209.47.61.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA21432 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ALPS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:47:06 -0400 Message-ID: <81E6C37A5EE1D211B1E300A0C9EBC1D3EC40D7@ALPS> From: FOREST Laurent To: "'MLL ietf@ietf.org'" Subject: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a request Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:47:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Hello, I have to implement an LDAP client in C, which has to submit several LDAP requests in parallel and consequently to process their responses asynchronously. Given the specific requirements of my application, the ideal situation for this LDAP client would be to be notified when a request is completed (e.g. when all searchResultEntries, searchResultReferences and searchResultDone of a given search request are received). The notification could be the call of a callback function with the messageId of the request as a parameter. I looked at different LDAP Client APIs (OpenLDAP, Netscape SDK 4.1), but there is no notion of "end-of-request" notifications. The only way to check if a request is completed is to call the "ldap_result()" function for the messageId of each outstanding request, in a waiting or polling mode. Did I miss something in the LDAP client APIs above? Does someone know another LDAP client API in C that would meet the "end-of-request" notification requirement? All remarks and suggestions are very welcome. Thank you Laurent From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 24 23:30:37 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id XAA26538 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA26475 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id UAA16796; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:16:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105250316.UAA16796@shell9.ba.best.com> To: laurent.forest@ca.sema.com Subject: Re: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a request Cc: ietf@ietf.org X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >... The only way to check > if a request is completed is to call the "ldap_result()" function for the > messageId of each outstanding request, in a waiting or polling mode.... If you are compiling in an envionment that supports threads, make a new thread to call ldap_result() in waiting (blocking) mode, and then notify your main thread when it returns. If you are unable or unwilling to use threads (perfectly sensible) then concurrent process(es) can be used. By the way, the only non-threadsafe function in the C standard library these days is strtok(); don't use that (or any function saving global state in static variables; meant to be called from more than one place) if you want your code to be threadsafe. Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 00:20:11 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA27337 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snark.piermont.com ([206.1.51.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA27295 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by snark.piermont.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B36A71E005E; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Sender: perry@snark.piermont.com To: "James P. Salsman" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: perspective References: <200105230126.SAA27423@shell9.ba.best.com> From: "Perry E. Metzger" Date: 25 May 2001 00:18:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: "James P. Salsman"'s message of "Tue, 22 May 2001 18:26:05 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <877kz66oza.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org "James P. Salsman" writes: > It took a few seconds to ignore the spurts of spam that started > the recent mailing list policy threads, but I am now dozens of > messages behind, trying to read and carefully consider all of > the resulting insightful and witty comments. > > What needs filtering, again? Congratulations. You are lucky. I literally am hit with HUNDREDS of spam messages a day. Very aggressive filtering techniques mean that I don't have to try looking at those manually, but it would literally wreck my ability to find important email if I didn't stop the stuff. Why do I get so much spam? Probably because I've had the same email address for many years, post a lot, and many of my older addresses still forward mail to me. (I have some evidence spammers have addresses of mine that haven't been active since around the time domain names first showed up in their lists, but luckily all those addresses are long dead.) (I'm astonished that lots of spammers apparently have even accidental misspellings of my email address in their databases -- when I check my logs lots of perr@piermont.com and erry@piermont.com stuff is there, almost certainly because of a handful of bad crossposts to me sent to mailing lists over the years.) To you, maybe, spam is ignorable and causes little damage. To some of us, fighting it off is literally the difference between email remaining a usable tool and having it become bogged down in what is effectively denial of service. I could *not* delete the crap fast enough by hand for "just hit delete, who cares" to be effective. The "oh, who cares, just hit delete" crowd are, IMHO, terribly naive, or personally lucky. Perry From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 00:50:26 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA27764 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA27676 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id VAA04190; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:43:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105250443.VAA04190@shell9.ba.best.com> To: perry@piermont.com Subject: Re: perspective Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <877kz66oza.fsf@snark.piermont.com> X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Congratulations. You are lucky.... I get plenty of spam, sometimes more than 20 per day, but seriously, it only takes me about 20 seconds to ignore it all. Sometimes when I see particularly obnoxious mail, I respond to it in a way that might prevent it in the future, but that usually doesn't take more than 20 minutes a day. The real question is whether I have time to respond, and the amount of ordinary UCBE never really has much impact on that. So it seems like luck has little to do with it. However, I've made more than 500 posts to USENET in the past five years, mostly from this address, so maybe I am lucky. My resume has been on the internet for about as long, so I guess so. If I was lucky as an attribute and not as an accident, then I would certainly be able to get the W3C to abandon its secrecy regulations and instead respect its conflict of interest regulations. If I was just moderatly lucky, it seems like at least a dozen speech technology research and development firms would have offered me work, but only a handful have. Those are the kind of unsolicited offers that make people really happy, so when people start talking about taking away my ability to learn about work that needs to be done, it offends me. Seriously, think about it. If you were laid off from a major networking firm because you were working too hard to improve their market share, wouldn't you love to have access to questions that might lead you to a better job? What if all the professional lists required people to pay before asking -- what would that do to your supply of information about leads? Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 02:20:20 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id CAA09748 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 02:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com ([207.46.181.80]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA09553 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 02:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from workhorse ([63.26.61.72]) by cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3225); Thu, 24 May 2001 23:16:10 -0700 From: "Panjung@Photonicnet. Com \(E-mail\)" Sender: "Pan Jung" To: Subject: FW: perspective Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:18:20 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c0e4e2$7ed983e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2001 06:16:10.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[3148A480:01C0E4E2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about legalization of spams? Let's see, let's setup recognized spam server centers (NSC's). Receive revenues from customers , market will dictate acceptable spamming practices, by its success? We can RFC the setup and maintaining guidelines. Pan -----Original Message----- From: James P. Salsman [mailto:bovik@best.com] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 9:44 PM To: perry@PIERMONT.COM Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: perspective > Congratulations. You are lucky.... I get plenty of spam, sometimes more than 20 per day, but seriously, it only takes me about 20 seconds to ignore it all. Sometimes when I see particularly obnoxious mail, I respond to it in a way that might prevent it in the future, but that usually doesn't take more than 20 minutes a day. The real question is whether I have time to respond, and the amount of ordinary UCBE never really has much impact on that. So it seems like luck has little to do with it. However, I've made more than 500 posts to USENET in the past five years, mostly from this address, so maybe I am lucky. My resume has been on the internet for about as long, so I guess so. If I was lucky as an attribute and not as an accident, then I would certainly be able to get the W3C to abandon its secrecy regulations and instead respect its conflict of interest regulations. If I was just moderatly lucky, it seems like at least a dozen speech technology research and development firms would have offered me work, but only a handful have. Those are the kind of unsolicited offers that make people really happy, so when people start talking about taking away my ability to learn about work that needs to be done, it offends me. Seriously, think about it. If you were laid off from a major networking firm because you were working too hard to improve their market share, wouldn't you love to have access to questions that might lead you to a better job? What if all the professional lists required people to pay before asking -- what would that do to your supply of information about leads? Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 09:50:32 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA18031 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zrc2s03g.nortelnetworks.com ([47.103.122.66]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA17804 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortelnetworks.com (zcars04e.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by zrc2s03g.nortelnetworks.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA27572 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 08:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from zcard015.ca.nortel.com (actually zcard015) by zcars04e.nortelnetworks.com; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:34:33 -0400 Received: by zcard015.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:34:37 -0400 Message-ID: <03E3E0690542D211A1490000F80836F405A24D2F@zcard00f.ca.nortel.com> From: "George Xu" To: "'James P. Salsman'" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a reques t Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:34:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0E51F.6F1DE170" X-Orig: X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E51F.6F1DE170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" James, Very interesting statement about strtok(). Do you know which OS or where I can find the material supporting your point here? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: James P. Salsman [mailto:bovik@best.com] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 11:17 PM To: laurent.forest@ca.sema.com Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a request >... The only way to check > if a request is completed is to call the "ldap_result()" function for the > messageId of each outstanding request, in a waiting or polling mode.... If you are compiling in an envionment that supports threads, make a new thread to call ldap_result() in waiting (blocking) mode, and then notify your main thread when it returns. If you are unable or unwilling to use threads (perfectly sensible) then concurrent process(es) can be used. By the way, the only non-threadsafe function in the C standard library these days is strtok(); don't use that (or any function saving global state in static variables; meant to be called from more than one place) if you want your code to be threadsafe. Cheers, James ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E51F.6F1DE170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a = request

James,
Very interesting statement about strtok().  Do = you know which OS or where I can find the material supporting your = point here?

Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: James P. Salsman [mailto:bovik@best.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 11:17 PM
To: laurent.forest@ca.sema.com
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: LDAP Client API in C with Notification = of the end of a
request


>... The only way to check
> if a request is completed is to call the = "ldap_result()" function for the
> messageId of each outstanding request, in a = waiting or polling mode....

If you are compiling in an envionment that supports = threads, make a
new thread to call ldap_result() in waiting = (blocking) mode, and then
notify your main thread when it returns.  If = you are unable or
unwilling to use threads (perfectly sensible) then = concurrent
process(es) can be used.

By the way, the only non-threadsafe function in the C = standard library
these days is strtok(); don't use that (or any = function saving global
state in static variables; meant to be called from = more than one place)
if you want your code to be threadsafe.

Cheers,
James

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E51F.6F1DE170-- From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 12:00:54 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA20098 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 12:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA19971 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 153JlH-0004Qm-00; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:44:23 +0100 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:44:20 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: George Xu cc: "'James P. Salsman'" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a reques t In-Reply-To: <03E3E0690542D211A1490000F80836F405A24D2F@zcard00f.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *153JlH-0004Qm-00*MIUH50nDxco* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Fri, 25 May 2001, George Xu wrote: > Very interesting statement about strtok(). Do you know which OS or where I > can find the material supporting your point here? type man strtok on a unix box. L. PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 12:20:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA20540 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 12:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA20335 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 12:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 153Jl2-0004Q8-00; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:44:08 +0100 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:44:05 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: George Xu cc: "'James P. Salsman'" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a reques t In-Reply-To: <03E3E0690542D211A1490000F80836F405A24D2F@zcard00f.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *153Jl2-0004Q8-00*ruDGYBS2yvA* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Fri, 25 May 2001, George Xu wrote: > Very interesting statement about strtok(). Do you know which OS or where I > can find the material supporting your point here? type man strtok on a unix box. L. PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 12:40:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA20996 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 12:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ljcqs016.cnf.com ([63.230.177.14]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA20874 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 12:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mwabs030.emeryworld.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ljcqs016.cnf.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07988; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mwabs030.emeryworld.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:18:21 -0000 Message-ID: <3B596DA7DC7B9F4AB5B184B190C7269903B94255@ljcbs058> From: "Dawson, Peter D" To: "'Lloyd Wood'" , George Xu Cc: "'James P. Salsman'" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a reques t Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:18:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org strtok() can be used to break the string pointed to by s1 into a sequence of tokens, each of which is delimited by one or more characters from the string pointed to by s2. strtok() considers the string s1 to consist of a sequence of zero or more text tokens separated by spans of one or more characters from the separator string s2. The first call (with pointer s1 specified) returns a pointer to the first character of the first token, and will have written a null character into s1 immediately following the returned token. The function keeps track of its position in the string between separate calls, so that subsequent calls (which must be made with the first argument being a null pointer) will work through the string s1 immediately following that token. In this way subsequent calls will work through the string s1 until no tokens remain. The separator string s2 may be dif- ferent from call to call. When no token remains in s1, a null pointer is returned. ->-----Original Message----- ->From: Lloyd Wood [mailto:l.wood@eim.surrey.ac.uk] ->Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:44 AM ->To: George Xu ->Cc: 'James P. Salsman'; ietf@ietf.org ->Subject: RE: LDAP Client API in C with Notification of the end of a ->reques t -> -> ->On Fri, 25 May 2001, George Xu wrote: -> ->> Very interesting statement about strtok(). Do you know ->which OS or where I ->> can find the material supporting your point here? -> ->type -> ->man strtok -> ->on a unix box. -> ->L. -> ->PGP -> From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 19:00:49 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA26798 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp014.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26737 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host143122.metrored.net.ar (HELO default) (200.59.143.122) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 May 2001 22:57:09 -0000 X-Apparently-From: From: "Ezequiel Naya" To: "Ietf" , "Majordomo" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Please=2C_I_don=B4t_have_SPAM_mails?= Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:59:19 -0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I´m receive 30 o 40 mails by day. Clearly is SPAM mails. From my ietf suscription, I receive a lot of spam mails. What do you do about that?? Regards Ezequiel Naya _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-ietf-outbound Fri May 25 19:40:14 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA27332 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.60]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA27300 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ix.netcom.com (user-v3qs51k.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.20.52]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11191; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B0F0B85.BD236BC9@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:48:53 -0700 From: Jeff Williams Organization: INEGroup Spokesman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ga-roots@dnso.org CC: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ga-roots] response to Crispin Internet-draft References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Milton and all, I agree for the most part your nicely worded analysis of Crispin's draft (It that is what you want to call it? ) I found his draft mostly a vain attempt at attacking what already exists and is now growing at a rather rapid pace of late. It appears that he is using the IETF for his own purposes to demonize Competitive/Inclusive Root structures and Registries that fall outside of ICANN's direct control or influence. I suggest that anyone reading Crispins draft will likely see the obvious straw man tendencies in it without too much trouble as well. So obvious as to be almost blatant in the intent. That seems to be contrary to the high standards of the IETF, and therefore lends much credence that has been circulated in the past few years as to the IAB's and IETF objectivity. I hope that this can be corrected in the near term so that the IETF will not continue to be viewed in this light... Milton Mueller wrote: > Analysis of the Crispin Internet-draft. > > The draft is based on two assumptions, both easily questioned. > > One: "I implicitly postulate that multiple roots exist > and are in heavy use and that the Internet Corporation > for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) has somehow > approved of them." > > That assumption is self-contradictory. If ICANN > has "approved" of multiple roots, why would it not > coordinate the contents of its root zone file with > them? What would "approval" consist of, if not some > kind of coordination or avoidance of duplication? > > Two: he assumes that multiple roots would not converge > on a coordinated zone file. In other words, his very > definition of a "multiple root regime" assumes that > registries, Internet service providers, and consumers > will heedlessly create and buy conflicting names in a > fragmented name space. > > That assumption is inconsistent with what we > know about the the economics of standards competition, > and for the most part is contradicted by the current > behavior of alternate root operators. > > Once these two assumptions are made, multiple roots > are equated with a *completely uncoordinated* root > zone file. Crispin uses most of the draft telling us > how horrible name collisions and uncoordinated zone > files are. But as far as I know, no person advocates > name collisions (except perhaps the Board members who > selected .BIZ, but that's another story). > > In short, the whole draft is an enthusiastic whacking > of a straw man. > > But the most fundamental problem with this draft is > that, like RFC 2826, it diverts our attention from the > real policy issues we face. > > The issue we face is not: are alternate roots "good" > or "harmful"? > > Alternate roots do in fact exist. No one can prevent > them from existing, because te selection of a root > server to point to is a voluntary act by ISPs and > end-user client software. > > So in reality, the question we need to answer is: > if alternate roots do exist, how should ICANN relate to them? > > If ICANN "endorses" other roots, then it would of > course coordinate its TLD selections with them, and > there would be fewer if any name collisions. > > If ICANN doesn't "endorse" other roots, then.....then > what? Should it adopt TLDs that conflict with ones > publicly in use by alternate root servers? If, like > Crispin, one purports to be an enemy of fragmentation > and name collisions, the answer should be NO. The > other alternative is to ignore other roots and pretend > they don't exist. That may be easy to do if they are > small and helpless, but what if they get big? At some > point, one has to consider coordination. > > Or is Crispin saying is that he wants ICANN, or > someone, to make it illegal to run an alternate root? > This would involve regulating the configuration of > every computer connected to the Internet, and defining > what technology and service provider everyone had to > use. It would be like a law dictating that everyone > had to use the same computer operating system to > avoid "instability." To me, that cure sounds worse > than the disease. But at this stage we need to > concentrate on identifying facts and defining options, > not on making normative judgments. > > What to do about multiple roots is an important, > serious question. Crispin's draft is too focused on demonizing alternative roots to contribute any > substantive answers. > > It is an excellent example of how the DNSO should > NOT approach the multiple roots issue. > > -- > This message was passed to you via the ga-roots@dnso.org list. > Send mail to majordomo@dnso.org to unsubscribe > ("unsubscribe ga-roots" in the body of the message). > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html Regards, -- Jeffrey A. Williams Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!) CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827 Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208 From owner-ietf-outbound Sat May 26 10:31:29 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA19487 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Sat, 26 May 2001 10:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from one.elistx.com ([209.116.252.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA19401 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 10:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0GDS00M9WRF8YB@eListX.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:35:53 -0400 (EDT) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs In-reply-to: <200105231527.LAA03542@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Wed, 23 May 2001, Keith Moore wrote: > Every IETF mailing list has a charter, a known purpose for its use. It > is entirely reasonable and legitimate to reject all submissions that are > outside the scope of the charter. If we can not agree on that point > this whole discussion is pointless. I couldn't disagree with you more. It's one thing for a chair to point out that a topic is not within the list's charter, and quite another thing for someone to arbitrarily filter material that he/she doesn't think is within the list's charter. So your point is simply that you want the decisions of what is in scope and what is not to be visible? This is entirely reasonable, in my opinion, since to do otherwise make us vulnerable to censorship. I can think of at least two ways to do this; there are probably others. Is this the only reason that you reject mail filtering, i.e., you are opposed to mail filtering behind closed doors? In any case, you delegate the job to the Chair. I don't see any reason why a Chair could not delegate this job, nor any prohibition against it for that matter, especially if the actions are visible. > Implementation is wholly separate from policy, and a primary concern for > the list maintainer. A list maintainer needs to figure out how to > identify messages that are within scope and ideally would like to > automate that process. I would assert they can do this without anyone's > approval or guidance. I disagree that it is appropriate for a list maintainer (at least on an IETF list) to determine whether a message is in scope for the list, other than on a *very* coarse level for eliminating obvious spam. The chair and/or the AD have the authority determine whether things are in scope; the list maintainer should only filter things on their explicit authority. And it's not appropriate to filter anybody's input at the source unless they have repeatedly failed to follow the directions of the chair - and this should be only as a last resort. And now you're digging in to the next level of implementation, which is both the competence of and the criteria used by the list maintainer (be it the Chair or some other designee). I suspect you're equating list maintainer with the sysadmin who manages the technology. In that case I largely agree with your assessment above. However, more generally, we are talking about a moderator (not a censor). In that case, the criteria used really does depend on the competence of the moderator, but I really don't see a big issue here. It seems to me we choose a moderator much the same way we choose a Chair of a working group. > Mail filtering is not in and of itself a bad thing. It is a tool, a > legitimate tool, that when used as part of a larger solution to the > problem of maintaining the integrity of a mailing list is extremely > valuable. I don't disagree with this statement as a generality. But the way that you suggest that the tool be used would destroy the integrity of the mailing list as a vehicle for open discussion rather than maintaining it. I don't see how. I'm suggesting that filtering can be used to automate some of the process of maintaining the integrity of a mailing list and open discussion. I don't understand how you turned that around. > Restricting the posting of messages to subscribers is not bad, it is an > excellent choice for the first line defense against off-topic messages. Once again I empatically disagree. Whether a posting comes from a subscriber is completely orthogonal to whether the message is on topic. I agree. To complete my thinking I would add that most IETF lists are pretty good at being self-policing, as far as managing subscribers is concerned. In that context, if a subscriber starts moving "outside scope" we deal with that pretty well. Thus, it's not that subscribers are always on topic, it's that we know how to deal with subscribers who are off-topic. > The issue is whether it is the only solution employed. The issue here is whether it is appropriate at all. Nobody has argued that other solutions could not be considered. As I asked above I will ask again here, is it that you are opposed to mail filtering as a tool or mail filtering behind closed doors? Jim From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 00:11:57 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA16071 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-smtpout3.email.verio.net ([129.250.36.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA16039 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:08:46 -0400 (EDT) From: marut@cosystems.com Received: from [129.250.38.63] (helo=dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net) by dfw-smtpout3.email.verio.net with esmtp id 154EL0-0007hp-00 for ietf@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 04:09:02 +0000 Received: from [209.24.141.50] (helo=lynx.cosystems.com) by dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net with smtp id 154EKz-0002Da-00 for ietf@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 04:09:02 +0000 Deliver-To: X-Recipient: Received: from jaguar.cosystems.com (jaguar [192.9.200.30]) by lynx.cosystems.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23844 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cipl1 (ocelot [192.9.200.9]) by jaguar.cosystems.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15978 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 192.9.200.5 by cipl1 ([192.9.200.139] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:43:20 +0530 Received: from cosystems.com ([192.9.200.101])by icosys.cosystems.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25986for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:32:02 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <3B11D216.1DBB54DA@cosystems.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:50:38 +0530 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: filtering of mailing lists and NATs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.3.0b - Registered to: CoSystems, Inc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am sorry, if I sound harsh, but I think this chain of mails is becoming more concerning than the amount of spam one receives. Could we put an end to it? James M Galvin wrote: > Keith, > > Your NAT analogy is weak, very weak, at best. It's opening premise is > flawed, as is this entire discussion of mail list filtering, because it > confuses policy with implementation. > > The IETF has a policy of "openness" for all its mailing lists. The > problem is most of the argument against filtering defines openness as > "all messages shall be distributed." This is false. > > Every IETF mailing list has a charter, a known purpose for its use. It > is entirely reasonable and legitimate to reject all submissions that are > outside the scope of the charter. If we can not agree on that point > this whole discussion is pointless. > > Implementation is wholly separate from policy, and a primary concern for > the list maintainer. A list maintainer needs to figure out how to > identify messages that are within scope and ideally would like to > automate that process. I would assert they can do this without anyone's > approval or guidance. The only issue anyone in the IETF can have with > that is if the list maintainer has a skewed sense of "within scope" or > if whatever process they use generates false positives. But you can not > know this until after the fact. We do so many things in this > "organization" on the basis of "subjective judgement with after decision > peer review," (less so now than even just 5 years ago but still) why > should this be any different? > > Mail filtering is not in and of itself a bad thing. It is a tool, a > legitimate tool, that when used as part of a larger solution to the > problem of maintaining the integrity of a mailing list is extremely > valuable. > > Restricting the posting of messages to subscribers is not bad, it is an > excellent choice for the first line defense against off-topic messages. > The issue is whether it is the only solution employed. > > Messages from non-subscribers need to be reviewed to determine if they > are within scope. In a worst case this review is done manually but it > doesn't need to be. There are a few (I mean less than 5) additional > technological criteria that can be applied that will correctly review > 95% or more of the non-subscriber messages. This minimizes the manual > work. > > I know this because I do this and have been doing it for years. I have > a 100% success rate at keeping spam off mailing lists and no complaints. > The total volume of email I deal with far exceeds the needs of all the > IETF lists combined. This is not rocket science. > > Furthermore, I don't see how the occasional 24-48 hour delay in getting > an occasional message distributed is bad. So many people have this > idealistic view of email immediacy. Have you ever really looked at the > Received: lines for messages distributed to the main IETF list? > Messages to me typically take about 6 hours to get delivered but I've > seen delays as long as 18 hours. And the delay is *not* at my end. > > Jim > > On Mon, 21 May 2001, Keith Moore wrote: > > Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:00:02 -0400 > From: Keith Moore > To: ietf@ietf.org > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu > Subject: filtering of mailing lists and NATs > > it occurs to me that most of the methods that have been proposed > for filtering spam from mailing lists have a lot in common with NATs. > > in both cases, the proponents say (in effect) "if it works for me and > for my small set of test cases, it must be okay to impose this on > everyone. if some legitimate traffic is excluded by my filters, they is > of no consequence - they should be willing to jump through whatever hoops > that I believe are appropriate. and if people have to abandon practices > that they find useful in order to to get around my filters, that is of > no consequence either, because they do not need to be doing those things > anyway" > > Keith > > -- ************************************************ The only way to solve a problem is to look at it in the face. ************************************************ From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 00:40:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA16368 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from altavista.com (user01606.du.no.uu.net [212.125.166.82]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA16239 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105280426.AAA16239@ietf.org> From: "Roger McKenssy" To: Subject: Do you want to be on a TV commercial? Sender: "Roger McKenssy" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:27:33 +0200 Reply-To: "Roger McKenssy" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We are looking for new faces for TV & Movie productions. All ages and looks. All countries. If you are interested, Please email or fax us your: ---------------------------------------------- -Name: -Age: -Country: -City: -email address: ---------------------------------------------- Please use email reply, but if it gives you a delivery error, please use Fax nr 1-309-276-9964 to ensure that we get your message. Please reply only if TV, movie or modeling is of an interest to you. We hope you understand that we are trying to get ONLY serious people who really want to try and like the camera. Feel free to pass this email to a friend or a family member who maybe interested. There is absolutely no payment of any form required from your side. On the opposite, all jobs we offer are well paid. You'll be contacted for an online interview as soon as we can. Best Regards, Roger McKenssy Fax nr 1-309-276-9964 ------------------------------- This email is sent to you in full compliance with all existing and proposed email legislation. Note: You are not on a mailing list, and this is a one-time email. If we don't get an answer, you'll never hear from us any more. You are removed by default. You can still reply with the word Remove in the subject. This right is yours by law. Use Fax nr 1-309-276-9964 From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 01:00:07 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA16575 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 01:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta3.263.net ([202.96.44.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA16548 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mta3.263.net (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 7FB0656FE2; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:56:41 +0800 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3B11DA89.22917@mta3> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:56:41 +0800 (CST) From: "subo" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Are you allright? X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [202.118.48.5] X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org hello this is a test , It has been 2 days that I receive nothing from the list _____________________________________________ ÊýÂë²úÆ·ÐÂÉÏÊУ¬¿á http://shopping.263.net/category21.htm ¾«Æ·Ð¡¼ÒµçÓ­ÏÄÈÈÂô http://shopping.263.net/category23.htm From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 06:44:38 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA02929 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 06:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apicra.wanadoo.fr (smtp-rt-3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.155]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA02769 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 06:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: cadeau@kipix.com Received: from amyris.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.150) by apicra.wanadoo.fr; 28 May 2001 12:27:07 +0200 Received: from pc2-sq.gpe-kipix (193.251.53.196) by amyris.wanadoo.fr; 28 May 2001 12:26:35 +0200 Message-ID: <3b1227dc3b13c050@amyris.wanadoo.fr> (added by amyris.wanadoo.fr) To: ietf@ietf.org Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:26:48 PDT Subject: Kipix(r) va vous aider a VENDRE PLUS... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Document sans-titre
De : Laurette Hassan      A> Directeur Marketing/Communication  Copie : Dir. Commercial
Kipix® est le nouveau cadeau publicitaire qui va vous aider à vendre plus !
(explications sur www.kipix.com et ci-après...)  If you speak English go on www.kipix.com

Comment placer l'adresse de votre site Internet (ou le n° de téléphone de votre service clientèle, etc...) directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?

2 grammes de
concentré de communication
www.kipix.com

C'est parce qu'il permet à vos prospects d'afficher ainsi leurs notes d'un seul geste, que Kipix® assure la présence de votre message publicitaire à un endroit stratégique...






Comment placer l'adresse de
de votre site Internet
(ou le n° de téléphone
de votre service clientèle, etc...)
directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?


   La société Kozatis s.a.s. (spécialisée dans la conception de supports publicitaires innovants) vous propose une solution efficace et originale pour que votre message publicitaire soit vraiment VU et LU... Très fréquemment VU et très fréquemment LU !!!

   Une des raisons du succès publicitaire du porte-notes Kipix® (Système Breveté, Médaille d'Or des Inventions et Prix du Président du Concours Lépine 2000) est qu'il est perçu par vos (futurs) clients comme un cadeau original et très pratique : il rend un service concret qui assurera votre présence permanente auprès de vos prospects...

   En effet, Kipix® sera rapidement adopté par vos clients ou prospects car il leur permet de mettre en évidence leurs notes, mémos et feuillets d'un seul geste ; et ce à un endroit stratégique pour votre communication : sur le pourtour de l'écran de leur ordinateur ! (avez-vous remarqué la quantité de documents qu'ils essaient d'afficher quotidiennement à cet endroit ?)

   Vous bénéficierez de l' "effet Kipix®" de multiples façons :

· en prospection : vos commerciaux laisseront dorénavant une trace visible, durable et positive de leur passage... (avec Kipix® votre message publicitaire sera bien en vue jusqu'au jour où votre prospect aura besoin de vos produits/services. Vendre, c'est souvent être là au bon moment : Kipix® est justement conçu pour être là au bon moment !)...
· pendant vos salons -ou autres événements- Kipix® fera merveille : disposé dans un récipient transparent, et aperçu depuis les allées d'un salon, Kipix® intrigue les visiteurs et les pousse à s'approcher, augmentant ainsi le nombre de vos contacts !...
· dans vos courriers et vos mailings (il est extra plat et pèse moins lourd qu'une feuille A4 : à peine 4 grammes packaging inclu !). De plus, Kipix® procure une sensation tactile très particulière au travers d'une enveloppe, ce qui "force" littéralement vos prospects à ouvrir les courriers que vous leur adressez...
· en tant que prime directe...
· etc...

   N'hésitez-pas à me téléphoner pour toute information supplémentaire ou pour recevoir un échantillon gratuit,

   Sincères salutations :-)

Laurette Hassan - Directrice Commerciale de Kozatis s.a.s.
+33(0)6 61 93 46 69 ou +33(0)1 58 53 52 62 cadeau@kipix.com

   P.S. : quelques-uns des annonceurs qui font confiance à Kipix® : www.nomade.fr, SNCF, Microsoft, IBM, Cegetel, FFF, Johnson & Johnson, Nortel, BNP, CIC, Crédit Agricole, Lufthansa, Groupe CASINO, ORT Reuters, UNIX, Badoit, etc... (pour découvrir quelques-uns des visuels de leurs Kipix®, visitez www.kipix.com)

   Une petite DEMONSTRATION VIDEO réalisée "au pied levé" vous donnera un aperçu dynamique des qualités fonctionnelles de Kipix® ; pour la découvrir cliquez sur le lien suivant : Téléchargement de la démonstration vidéo (fichier ".mpg" ; environ 1 minute)
(c'est peu probable, mais si la démonstration ne démarrait pas automatiquement, utilisez Windows Media Player (intégré à Windows Millenium) ou RealPlayer 8 Basic (disponible gratuitement sur www.realplayer.com, ou plus directement en cliquant sur le lien suivant : http://www...))

 

If you don't speak french, but english, please visit our web site :
www.kipix.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________________________
Si vous ne désirez plus recevoir de courriers de cette liste :
To remove your email address from this list :
cadeau@kipix.com From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 06:49:43 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA03016 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 06:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apicra.wanadoo.fr (smtp-rt-3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.155]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA02769 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 06:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: cadeau@kipix.com Received: from amyris.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.150) by apicra.wanadoo.fr; 28 May 2001 12:27:07 +0200 Received: from pc2-sq.gpe-kipix (193.251.53.196) by amyris.wanadoo.fr; 28 May 2001 12:26:35 +0200 Message-ID: <3b1227dc3b13c050@amyris.wanadoo.fr> (added by amyris.wanadoo.fr) To: ietf@ietf.org Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:26:48 PDT Subject: Kipix(r) va vous aider a VENDRE PLUS... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Document sans-titre
De : Laurette Hassan      A> Directeur Marketing/Communication  Copie : Dir. Commercial
Kipix® est le nouveau cadeau publicitaire qui va vous aider à vendre plus !
(explications sur www.kipix.com et ci-après...)  If you speak English go on www.kipix.com

Comment placer l'adresse de votre site Internet (ou le n° de téléphone de votre service clientèle, etc...) directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?

2 grammes de
concentré de communication
www.kipix.com

C'est parce qu'il permet à vos prospects d'afficher ainsi leurs notes d'un seul geste, que Kipix® assure la présence de votre message publicitaire à un endroit stratégique...






Comment placer l'adresse de
de votre site Internet
(ou le n° de téléphone
de votre service clientèle, etc...)
directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?


   La société Kozatis s.a.s. (spécialisée dans la conception de supports publicitaires innovants) vous propose une solution efficace et originale pour que votre message publicitaire soit vraiment VU et LU... Très fréquemment VU et très fréquemment LU !!!

   Une des raisons du succès publicitaire du porte-notes Kipix® (Système Breveté, Médaille d'Or des Inventions et Prix du Président du Concours Lépine 2000) est qu'il est perçu par vos (futurs) clients comme un cadeau original et très pratique : il rend un service concret qui assurera votre présence permanente auprès de vos prospects...

   En effet, Kipix® sera rapidement adopté par vos clients ou prospects car il leur permet de mettre en évidence leurs notes, mémos et feuillets d'un seul geste ; et ce à un endroit stratégique pour votre communication : sur le pourtour de l'écran de leur ordinateur ! (avez-vous remarqué la quantité de documents qu'ils essaient d'afficher quotidiennement à cet endroit ?)

   Vous bénéficierez de l' "effet Kipix®" de multiples façons :

· en prospection : vos commerciaux laisseront dorénavant une trace visible, durable et positive de leur passage... (avec Kipix® votre message publicitaire sera bien en vue jusqu'au jour où votre prospect aura besoin de vos produits/services. Vendre, c'est souvent être là au bon moment : Kipix® est justement conçu pour être là au bon moment !)...
· pendant vos salons -ou autres événements- Kipix® fera merveille : disposé dans un récipient transparent, et aperçu depuis les allées d'un salon, Kipix® intrigue les visiteurs et les pousse à s'approcher, augmentant ainsi le nombre de vos contacts !...
· dans vos courriers et vos mailings (il est extra plat et pèse moins lourd qu'une feuille A4 : à peine 4 grammes packaging inclu !). De plus, Kipix® procure une sensation tactile très particulière au travers d'une enveloppe, ce qui "force" littéralement vos prospects à ouvrir les courriers que vous leur adressez...
· en tant que prime directe...
· etc...

   N'hésitez-pas à me téléphoner pour toute information supplémentaire ou pour recevoir un échantillon gratuit,

   Sincères salutations :-)

Laurette Hassan - Directrice Commerciale de Kozatis s.a.s.
+33(0)6 61 93 46 69 ou +33(0)1 58 53 52 62 cadeau@kipix.com

   P.S. : quelques-uns des annonceurs qui font confiance à Kipix® : www.nomade.fr, SNCF, Microsoft, IBM, Cegetel, FFF, Johnson & Johnson, Nortel, BNP, CIC, Crédit Agricole, Lufthansa, Groupe CASINO, ORT Reuters, UNIX, Badoit, etc... (pour découvrir quelques-uns des visuels de leurs Kipix®, visitez www.kipix.com)

   Une petite DEMONSTRATION VIDEO réalisée "au pied levé" vous donnera un aperçu dynamique des qualités fonctionnelles de Kipix® ; pour la découvrir cliquez sur le lien suivant : Téléchargement de la démonstration vidéo (fichier ".mpg" ; environ 1 minute)
(c'est peu probable, mais si la démonstration ne démarrait pas automatiquement, utilisez Windows Media Player (intégré à Windows Millenium) ou RealPlayer 8 Basic (disponible gratuitement sur www.realplayer.com, ou plus directement en cliquant sur le lien suivant : http://www...))

 

If you don't speak french, but english, please visit our web site :
www.kipix.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________________________
Si vous ne désirez plus recevoir de courriers de cette liste :
To remove your email address from this list :
cadeau@kipix.com From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 07:29:54 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id HAA03400 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 07:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from huaweimail.in.huawei.com ([203.197.168.164]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA03232 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 07:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by HUAWEIMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 28 May 2001 16:51:03 +0500 Message-ID: <751B6DD7A243D511AB9F0002557C568720100E@HUAWEIMAIL> From: "Venkateswar Reddy.M." To: cadeau@kipix.com Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Kipix(r) va vous aider a VENDRE PLUS... Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:51:03 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0E76C.78D05FA0" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E76C.78D05FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please for the heaven's sake, stop this spam in this very open forum = and use it for the purpose it's designed to be....! Venkat -----Original Message----- From: cadeau@kipix.com [mailto:cadeau@kipix.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:27 AM To: Subject: Kipix(r) va vous aider a VENDRE PLUS... De : Laurette Hassan A> Directeur Marketing/Communication Copie : = Dir. Commercial Kipix=AE est le nouveau cadeau publicitaire qui va vous aider =E0 = vendre plus ! (explications sur www.kipix.com et = ci-apr=E8s...) If you speak English go on www.kipix.com =20 Comment placer l'adresse de votre site Internet (ou le n=B0 de = t=E9l=E9phone de votre service client=E8le, etc...) directement sous les yeux de vos = prospects ? =20 =20 =20 2 grammes de concentr=E9 de communication www.kipix.com C'est parce qu'il permet =E0 vos prospects d'afficher ainsi leurs notes = d'un seul geste, que Kipix=AE assure la pr=E9sence de votre message = publicitaire =E0 un endroit strat=E9gique... Comment placer l'adresse de de votre site Internet (ou le n=B0 de t=E9l=E9phone de votre service client=E8le, etc...) directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?=20 La soci=E9t=E9 Kozatis s.a.s. (sp=E9cialis=E9e dans la conception de = supports publicitaires innovants) vous propose une solution efficace et = originale pour que votre message publicitaire soit vraiment VU et LU... Tr=E8s fr=E9quemment VU et tr=E8s fr=E9quemment LU !!! Une des raisons du succ=E8s publicitaire du porte-notes Kipix=AE = (Syst=E8me Brevet=E9, M=E9daille d'Or des Inventions et Prix du Pr=E9sident du = Concours L=E9pine 2000) est qu'il est per=E7u par vos (futurs) clients comme un = cadeau original et tr=E8s pratique : il rend un service concret qui assurera = votre pr=E9sence permanente aupr=E8s de vos prospects...=20 En effet, Kipix=AE sera rapidement adopt=E9 par vos clients ou = prospects car il leur permet de mettre en =E9vidence leurs notes, m=E9mos et = feuillets d'un seul geste ; et ce =E0 un endroit strat=E9gique pour votre = communication : sur le pourtour de l'=E9cran de leur ordinateur ! (avez-vous remarqu=E9 la = quantit=E9 de documents qu'ils essaient d'afficher quotidiennement =E0 cet endroit = ?) Vous b=E9n=E9ficierez de l' "effet Kipix=AE" de multiples fa=E7ons : * en prospection : vos commerciaux laisseront dor=E9navant une trace = visible, durable et positive de leur passage... (avec Kipix=AE votre message publicitaire sera bien en vue jusqu'au jour o=F9 votre prospect aura = besoin de vos produits/services. Vendre, c'est souvent =EAtre l=E0 au bon moment = : Kipix=AE est justement con=E7u pour =EAtre l=E0 au bon moment !)... * pendant vos salons -ou autres =E9v=E9nements- Kipix=AE fera merveille = : dispos=E9 dans un r=E9cipient transparent, et aper=E7u depuis les all=E9es d'un = salon, Kipix=AE intrigue les visiteurs et les pousse =E0 s'approcher, = augmentant ainsi le nombre de vos contacts !... * dans vos courriers et vos mailings (il est extra plat et p=E8se moins = lourd qu'une feuille A4 : =E0 peine 4 grammes packaging inclu !). De plus, = Kipix=AE procure une sensation tactile tr=E8s particuli=E8re au travers d'une = enveloppe, ce qui "force" litt=E9ralement vos prospects =E0 ouvrir les courriers = que vous leur adressez... * en tant que prime directe... * etc...=20 N'h=E9sitez-pas =E0 me t=E9l=E9phoner pour toute information = suppl=E9mentaire ou pour recevoir un =E9chantillon gratuit, Sinc=E8res salutations :-)=20 =20 Laurette Hassan - Directrice Commerciale de Kozatis s.a.s. +33(0)6 61 93 46 69 ou +33(0)1 58 53 52 62 cadeau@kipix.com P.S. : quelques-uns des annonceurs qui font confiance =E0 Kipix=AE : www.nomade.fr, SNCF, Microsoft, IBM, Cegetel, FFF, Johnson & Johnson, Nortel, BNP, CIC, Cr=E9dit Agricole, Lufthansa, Groupe CASINO, ORT = Reuters, UNIX, Badoit, etc... (pour d=E9couvrir quelques-uns des visuels de = leurs Kipix=AE, visitez www.kipix.com) Une petite DEMONSTRATION VIDEO r=E9alis=E9e "au pied lev=E9" vous = donnera un aper=E7u dynamique des qualit=E9s fonctionnelles de Kipix=AE ; pour la = d=E9couvrir cliquez sur le lien suivant : T=E9l=E9chargement de la d=E9monstration vid=E9o (fichier ".mpg" ; = environ 1 minute) (c'est peu probable, mais si la d=E9monstration ne d=E9marrait pas automatiquement, utilisez Windows Media Player (int=E9gr=E9 =E0 Windows = Millenium) ou RealPlayer 8 Basic (disponible gratuitement sur www.realplayer.com, ou plus directement en cliquant sur le lien suivant : http://www...)) =20 If you don't speak french, but english, please visit our web site : www.kipix.com =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ___________________________________=20 Si vous ne d=E9sirez plus recevoir de courriers de cette liste :=20 To remove your email address from this list :=20 cadeau@kipix.com=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E76C.78D05FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Document sans-titre
Please for the heaven's sake, stop this spam in this very open forum and use it for the purpose it's designed to be....!
Venkat
-----Original Message-----
From: cadeau@kipix.com [mailto:cadeau@kipix.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:27 AM
To: Subject: Kipix(r) va vous aider a VENDRE PLUS...

De : Laurette Hassan      A> Directeur Marketing/Communication  Copie : Dir. Commercial
Kipix® est le nouveau cadeau publicitaire qui va vous aider à vendre plus !
(explications sur www.kipix.com et ci-après...)  If you speak English go on www.kipix.com

Comment placer l'adresse de votre site Internet (ou le n° de téléphone de votre service clientèle, etc...) directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?

2 grammes de
concentré de communication
www.kipix.com

C'est parce qu'il permet à vos prospects d'afficher ainsi leurs notes d'un seul geste, que Kipix® assure la présence de votre message publicitaire à un endroit stratégique...






Comment placer l'adresse de
de votre site Internet
(ou le n° de téléphone
de votre service clientèle, etc...)
directement sous les yeux de vos prospects ?


   La société Kozatis s.a.s. (spécialisée dans la conception de supports publicitaires innovants) vous propose une solution efficace et originale pour que votre message publicitaire soit vraiment VU et LU... Très fréquemment VU et très fréquemment LU !!!

   Une des raisons du succès publicitaire du porte-notes Kipix® (Système Breveté, Médaille d'Or des Inventions et Prix du Président du Concours Lépine 2000) est qu'il est perçu par vos (futurs) clients comme un cadeau original et très pratique : il rend un service concret qui assurera votre présence permanente auprès de vos prospects...

   En effet, Kipix® sera rapidement adopté par vos clients ou prospects car il leur permet de mettre en évidence leurs notes, mémos et feuillets d'un seul geste ; et ce à un endroit stratégique pour votre communication : sur le pourtour de l'écran de leur ordinateur ! (avez-vous remarqué la quantité de documents qu'ils essaient d'afficher quotidiennement à cet endroit ?)

   Vous bénéficierez de l' "effet Kipix®" de multiples façons :

· en prospection : vos commerciaux laisseront dorénavant une trace visible, durable et positive de leur passage... (avec Kipix® votre message publicitaire sera bien en vue jusqu'au jour où votre prospect aura besoin de vos produits/services. Vendre, c'est souvent être là au bon moment : Kipix® est justement conçu pour être là au bon moment !)...
· pendant vos salons -ou autres événements- Kipix® fera merveille : disposé dans un récipient transparent, et aperçu depuis les allées d'un salon, Kipix® intrigue les visiteurs et les pousse à s'approcher, augmentant ainsi le nombre de vos contacts !...
· dans vos courriers et vos mailings (il est extra plat et pèse moins lourd qu'une feuille A4 : à peine 4 grammes packaging inclu !). De plus, Kipix® procure une sensation tactile très particulière au travers d'une enveloppe, ce qui "force" littéralement vos prospects à ouvrir les courriers que vous leur adressez...
· en tant que prime directe...
· etc...

   N'hésitez-pas à me téléphoner pour toute information supplémentaire ou pour recevoir un échantillon gratuit,

   Sincères salutations :-)

Laurette Hassan - Directrice Commerciale de Kozatis s.a.s.
+33(0)6 61 93 46 69 ou +33(0)1 58 53 52 62 cadeau@kipix.com

   P.S. : quelques-uns des annonceurs qui font confiance à Kipix® : www.nomade.fr, SNCF, Microsoft, IBM, Cegetel, FFF, Johnson & Johnson, Nortel, BNP, CIC, Crédit Agricole, Lufthansa, Groupe CASINO, ORT Reuters, UNIX, Badoit, etc... (pour découvrir quelques-uns des visuels de leurs Kipix®, visitez www.kipix.com)

   Une petite DEMONSTRATION VIDEO réalisée "au pied levé" vous donnera un aperçu dynamique des qualités fonctionnelles de Kipix® ; pour la découvrir cliquez sur le lien suivant : Téléchargement de la démonstration vidéo (fichier ".mpg" ; environ 1 minute)
(c'est peu probable, mais si la démonstration ne démarrait pas automatiquement, utilisez Windows Media Player (intégré à Windows Millenium) ou RealPlayer 8 Basic (disponible gratuitement sur www.realplayer.com, ou plus directement en cliquant sur le lien suivant : http://www...))

 

If you don't speak french, but english, please visit our web site :
www.kipix.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


___________________________________
Si vous ne désirez plus recevoir de courriers de cette liste :
To remove your email address from this list :
cadeau@kipix.com
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E76C.78D05FA0-- From owner-ietf-outbound Mon May 28 10:30:53 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA04961 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uicsgtw.cs.ui.ac.id ([152.118.24.8]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA04917 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caplin.cs.ui.ac.id (caplin.cs.ui.ac.id [152.118.36.9]) by uicsgtw.cs.ui.ac.id (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id VAA21022; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:19:38 +0700 Received: from rmsbase.vlsm.org (mail@rmsbase.acad.cs.ui.ac.id [152.118.26.15]) by caplin.cs.ui.ac.id (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25401; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:26:03 +0700 (JAVT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=vlsm.org ident=rms46) by rmsbase.vlsm.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 154Nv2-0000AG-00; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:22:52 +0700 Message-ID: <3B125F3B.D0CCDB4C@vlsm.org> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:22:51 +0700 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19pre17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailing list policy References: <871ypjyc5l.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: Well, it was yet another burst of suggestions. But, what was the problem? And, whose problem? Paul Hoffman / IMC wrote: >> When you are the maintainer of a list > That assumes that someone is the maintainer of the IETF mailing list. > At this moment, that is not the case. You are asking that an > additional task be put on one of the IETF Secretariat folks. That's > a reasonable request (and one that I would second), but it is not > based in current reality. Well, then it is about time that a system/ organization with an annual turnaround of millions of dollars has (a) mailing list maintainer(s). But, to whom do the IETFS folks reporting anyway? To the IESG? CNRI? IAB? ISOC? Or, directly to the goddess of confusion herself? Robert Elz wrote: > A supposed technological fix to a non-technological problem that just > made things worse, not better. Why? I agree with what ned.freed wrote: > In general, I agree with this assessment. But that doesn't mean that > some point fixes don't help in some cases. -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - VLSM-TJT - http://rms46.vlsm.org Tarlumobi di hamu Raja ni Hula-Hula dohot Tulang nami,bah! From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 29 01:33:03 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id BAA13403 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.59]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA13228 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105290527.BAA13228@ietf.org> Received: from cr760487-a.rchrd1.on.wave.home.com (HELO cr760487-a) (24.42.204.52) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 May 2001 05:28:00 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 1:32:2 -0500 From: Yunqu Liu Reply-To: yunqu_liu@yahoo.com To: "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: Dynamic Linux address Organization: Mr.liu & Mrs.liu X-mailer: FoxMail 3.0 beta 2 [eg] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Team I am useing a dynamic address to access the cable modem. But I cann't establishe the eth0 interface. It looks I didn't receive a address. The ethernet card is connected to a cable modem. The second question is I recompiled the kernal which included Crystal sound card. And it passed when system boot. But I cann't get any voice service. Would anybody kindly help me? Sincerely Yours, Yunqu Liu yunqu_liu@yahoo.com Sincerely Yours, Yunqu Liu yunqu_liu@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-ietf-outbound Tue May 29 13:43:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA07592 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pntsmtp02.hq.espire.net ([216.253.102.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA07485 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by PNTSMTP02.hq.espire.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:36:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Taylor, Johnny" To: Roger McKenssy , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Do you want to be on a TV commercial? Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:34:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I am in for this: Johnny Taylor 33 USA Atlanta johnny.taylor@espire.net JT -----Original Message----- From: Roger McKenssy [mailto:casting@altavista.com] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:28 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Do you want to be on a TV commercial? We are looking for new faces for TV & Movie productions. All ages and looks. All countries. If you are interested, Please email or fax us your: ---------------------------------------------- -Name: -Age: -Country: -City: -email address: ---------------------------------------------- Please use email reply, but if it gives you a delivery error, please use Fax nr 1-309-276-9964 to ensure that we get your message. Please reply only if TV, movie or modeling is of an interest to you. We hope you understand that we are trying to get ONLY serious people who really want to try and like the camera. Feel free to pass this email to a friend or a family member who maybe interested. There is absolutely no payment of any form required from your side. On the opposite, all jobs we offer are well paid. You'll be contacted for an online interview as soon as we can. Best Regards, Roger McKenssy Fax nr 1-309-276-9964 ------------------------------- This email is sent to you in full compliance with all existing and proposed email legislation. Note: You are not on a mailing list, and this is a one-time email. If we don't get an answer, you'll never hear from us any more. You are removed by default. You can still reply with the word Remove in the subject. This right is yours by law. Use Fax nr 1-309-276-9964 - This message was passed through ietf_censored@beatles.cselt.it, which is a sublist of ietf@ietf.org. Not all messages are passed. Decisions on what to pass are made solely by Maurizio Codogno. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 00:02:03 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA17249 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 00:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA17156 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 23:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id UAA23100; Tue, 29 May 2001 20:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:52:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105300352.UAA23100@shell9.ba.best.com> To: yunqu_liu@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Dynamic Linux address Cc: ietf@ietf.org X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org First, if you are in the U.S., please contact your congresspeople about H.R. 1542, which would make unlicenced Internet telephony a crime: http://www.pulver.com/hr1542/ http://www.pulver.com/hr1542/illegal.html http://www.pulver.com/hr1542/talkingpoints.html > I am useing a dynamic address to access the cable modem. But I cann't > establishe the eth0 interface. It looks I didn't receive a address. > The ethernet card is connected to a cable modem. > > The second question is I recompiled the kernal which included Crystal > sound card. And it passed when system boot. But I cann't get any voice > service. If your cable modem has a DHCP server, then it is probably also a NAT box, which may prevent you from using a H.323 voice-over-IP application. So you may have to disable the NAT features, and use a static IP address on your Linux box (i.e., the address that was assigned to your cable modem in the configuration paperwork that you were probably given), in which case you might be able to use your Linux box as a private network DHCP server and gateway if you have other DHCP clients. But depending on your cable modem company and the VoIP software you chose, you may be able to make it work with NAT. These links will probably help you with the first question: http://www.cablemodeminfo.com/LinuxCableModem.html http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/mini/DHCP/ And here is a popular VoIP telephony program that supports RTP (RFC 1899) and L.B.L. VAT protocols, but doesn't depend on H.323, so you might be able to use it even if you are behind a NAT box (but maybe not if both ends are behind different NAT boxes -- although there is probably some trick to make that work, I can't think of what off the top of my head.) http://www.fourmilab.ch/speakfree/unix/ http://www.germane-software.com/SpeakFreely/ If you achieve a static IP address, you may be able to use OpenH.323 and interoperate with the huge number of H.323 clients: http://www.openh323.org/code.html http://www.openh323.org/h323_clients.html Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 00:20:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA17438 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 00:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from venus2.ttnet.net.tr (venus2.ttnet.net.tr [212.156.4.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA17206 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 23:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ana ([62.248.32.141]) by venus2.ttnet.net.tr (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GE4O6Y02.1DP for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 06:56:58 +0400 Message-ID: <993220015330351560@ana> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 19 X-EM-Registration: #01B0530810E603002D00 X-Priority: 1 Reply-To: no-reply@no-reply.com X-MSMail-Priority: High From: "www.ozturkler.com.tr" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: hometextile,embroidery,authentic,handicraft Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:51:05 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset="windows-1254" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1254" New Page 1 Untitled Document
   
   

Dear  Friend,

 I am sending this letter to you, because  I think you may be interested in my  products . My company is  Ozturkler Desings And Home Textiles based in  Bursa  the centre of textile  industry in Turkey. We have been  producing  embroidery desings  for all major companies  in and out side of  Turkey for the last 17 years!

Besides  desings  which are  produced  to order  we have our  own  brand name ( Ottoman Authentic  Home textiles)  here we produce  old  Ottoman  desings  on a variety  of materials   including pure silk, these are made  into  table cloths ,cushion  covers ,serviettes which are  of standard sizes  special order  can be made  regarding  needs  these products  are most  suitable  for use in hotels, restaurants, holiday villages and homes  that would  like  some thing  different and that is  authentic !! If you think that  you may be interested in  our products  please visit our website  www.ozturkler.com.tr    and  there you will see  a large variety of our products  giving desings, sizes ,colours and prices,prices are negotiable depending on  amount ordered.

You can contact us  from  the website  or  direct to

   Mailing Address: Ozturkler Nakýs Desenleri. Ahmet Pasa mah.Fahri Koruturk cad. 
                             Aydin    sok.  NO:16/c  16050 Bursa  TURKEY

  Fax number  :  +90 224 223 99 24

  Email address:  mehmetdik@ozturkler.com.tr

   Web Site         : www.ozturkler.com.tr

 

We hope  that we may be able  to  help you  in your  requirements .

 

Yours  truly 

          Mehmet Dik   
General  Manager Ozturkler

 


------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 00:29:10 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA17574 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 00:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from venus2.ttnet.net.tr (venus2.ttnet.net.tr [212.156.4.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA17206 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 23:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ana ([62.248.32.141]) by venus2.ttnet.net.tr (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GE4O6Y02.1DP for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 06:56:58 +0400 Message-ID: <993220015330351560@ana> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 19 X-EM-Registration: #01B0530810E603002D00 X-Priority: 1 Reply-To: no-reply@no-reply.com X-MSMail-Priority: High From: "www.ozturkler.com.tr" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: hometextile,embroidery,authentic,handicraft Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:51:05 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset="windows-1254" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1254" New Page 1 Untitled Document
   
   

Dear  Friend,

 I am sending this letter to you, because  I think you may be interested in my  products . My company is  Ozturkler Desings And Home Textiles based in  Bursa  the centre of textile  industry in Turkey. We have been  producing  embroidery desings  for all major companies  in and out side of  Turkey for the last 17 years!

Besides  desings  which are  produced  to order  we have our  own  brand name ( Ottoman Authentic  Home textiles)  here we produce  old  Ottoman  desings  on a variety  of materials   including pure silk, these are made  into  table cloths ,cushion  covers ,serviettes which are  of standard sizes  special order  can be made  regarding  needs  these products  are most  suitable  for use in hotels, restaurants, holiday villages and homes  that would  like  some thing  different and that is  authentic !! If you think that  you may be interested in  our products  please visit our website  www.ozturkler.com.tr    and  there you will see  a large variety of our products  giving desings, sizes ,colours and prices,prices are negotiable depending on  amount ordered.

You can contact us  from  the website  or  direct to

   Mailing Address: Ozturkler Nakýs Desenleri. Ahmet Pasa mah.Fahri Koruturk cad. 
                             Aydin    sok.  NO:16/c  16050 Bursa  TURKEY

  Fax number  :  +90 224 223 99 24

  Email address:  mehmetdik@ozturkler.com.tr

   Web Site         : www.ozturkler.com.tr

 

We hope  that we may be able  to  help you  in your  requirements .

 

Yours  truly 

          Mehmet Dik   
General  Manager Ozturkler

 


------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 08:33:18 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA07933 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net ([24.147.1.143]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA07614 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:23:32 -0400 (EDT) From: pete@loshin.com Received: from gateway.loshin (h00a0c5e1478f.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.211.223]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4UCNkx09212 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateway.loshin (IDENT:pete@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gateway.loshin (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00839 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:20:26 -0400 Message-Id: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:20:26 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I write about IETF-related topics for a number of publications and websites. Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive when I ask them questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors of RFCs and I-Ds. However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees of large companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from speaking to the press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say something like, "My company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" and refer me to their public relations staff. RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by formal representatives of organizations. I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment activities. Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not supposed to come under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual property protections. So there should be no reason why an individual could not talk about what he or she does within the IETF. As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain importance to the world at large, IETF participants need to understand their obligations and rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether from the business world, the academic world, or "the media". The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are employed by industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official representatives of their companies rather than as individual (and independent) participants. Please discuss. -pl -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pete Loshin http://www.loshin.com | | pete@loshin.com +1 781/646-6318 | | | | Senior Editor-at-Large Information Security Magazine | | http://www.infosecuritymag.com | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 09:11:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA09360 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from newdev.harvard.edu ([140.247.60.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA08696 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by newdev.harvard.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00452; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Bradner Message-Id: <200105301252.IAA00452@newdev.harvard.edu> To: ietf@ietf.org, pete@loshin.com Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are employed by > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > representatives of their companies rather than as individual (and independent) > participants. would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? Scott From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 09:41:31 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id JAA10574 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torque.pothole.com ([38.138.52.132]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA10044 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by torque.pothole.com (8.9.3/1.1.29.3/11Jan01-1206AM) id JAA0000029270; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105301329.JAA0000029270@torque.pothole.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 May 2001 08:20:26 EDT." <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:29:32 -0400 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" X-Mts: smtp X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Hi, From: pete@loshin.com Message-Id: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> To: ietf@ietf.org Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:20:26 -0400 >I write about IETF-related topics for a number of publications and websites. >Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive when I ask them >questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors of RFCs and I-Ds. > >However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees of large >companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from speaking to the >press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say something like, "My >company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" and refer me to >their public relations staff. I don't see anything in the IETF rules which requires participants to give private press interviews. Certainly it is reasonable for anyone to refuse to answer some questions about business plans and business impact. But, for even the most technical question, there is no requirement to answer private questions. Even for the most techncial question posted to a working group mailing list, I don't see any rule forcing anyone to answer such a technical question. It might be wise for them to, to clarify or defend or attack a specification. And if the question is important, it seems likely that if they don't, someone else will try, and their will be some discussion. But I don't see that ordinary IETF participants accept any obligation to answer questions, especially ones asked privately. >RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: > > Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by > formal representatives of organizations. > >I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment >activities. What does "sparate" mean? For many people, their IETF activities are in the same techncial areas as their employment activities. As long as their IETF activities express their personal opinion, I don't see a problem. Many employers impose restrictions on their employees. If those restrictions make it impossible for the employee to follow IETF procedures (for example, prohibiting them from making IPR claims know that relate to a standard under development), then they must withdraw from the IETF or disobey their employer. The choice is theirs. But I don't see any problem with an employer prohibiting press interviews. (My employer has a general policy requiring Press Relations participation in press interviews but has made an exception for any interviews I have that relate solely to technical aspects of standards work.) >Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not supposed to come >under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual property protections. >So there should be no reason why an individual could not talk about what he or >she does within the IETF. IETF activities are primarily the postings to the mailing lists which are, of course, pubicly available. Your second sentence does not follow from the first. "No reason" is pretty broad. >As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain importance to the >world at large, IETF participants need to understand their obligations and >rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether from the business >world, the academic world, or "the media". I think I've always been cooperative with press interviews. And I think that is usually a good thing. But I see no obligation. As long as IETF participants think that participation is useful and as long as a significant part of the output of the IETF is considered useful by the world, then the IETF will continue, in my opinion, to be a success. This requires not the slightest cooperation with those from the business, academic, or media worlds who want to poke around in, interogate, analyse, or duplicate the IETF. >The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are employed by >industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official >representatives of their companies rather than as individual (and independent) >participants. Non sequiter. >Please discuss. > >-pl >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Pete Loshin http://www.loshin.com | >| pete@loshin.com +1 781/646-6318 | >| | >| Senior Editor-at-Large Information Security Magazine | >| http://www.infosecuritymag.com | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Thanks, Donald =================================================================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd dee3@torque.pothole.com 155 Beaver Streeet lde008@dma.isg.mot.com Milford, MA 01757 USA +1 508-634-2066(h) +1 508-261-5434(w) From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 10:10:38 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA11913 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ties.itu.ch (webd@[156.106.192.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA11471 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from webd@localhost) by ties.itu.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01798 for ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:01:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: ties.itu.ch: webd set sender to jarle@ties.itu.int using -f To: Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Message-ID: <991231292.3b14fd3c3bcf8@ties.itu.int> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:01:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.0-cvs X-Originating-IP: 156.106.192.32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pete, I can see this being a sticky point. As you point out it is the individual who is "contributing" to the work of IETF. Having said that, the individual is typically paid by "some" company....which implies that the individual is commited to this company (and whatever the work this company is doing). In most cases I would think that the interest of the individual (IETF rep.) and the company is alligned - and there is no conflict. But I can see situations where this is not true. I haven't been there myself, but I can see "a most frustrating situation" where one (as a person) has a conflicting view than your employer (with respect to IETF work). ...no solutions, just some of my thoughts... /jarle > -----Original Message----- > From: pete@loshin.com [mailto:pete@loshin.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:20 AM > To: ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > > > I write about IETF-related topics for a number of > publications and websites. > Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive > when I ask them > questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors > of RFCs and I-Ds. > > However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees > of large > companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from > speaking to the > press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say > something like, "My > company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" > and refer me to > their public relations staff. > > RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: > > Participation is by individual technical contributors, > rather than by > formal representatives of organizations. > > I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment > activities. > > Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not > supposed to come > under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual > property protections. > So there should be no reason why an individual could not talk > about what he or > she does within the IETF. > > As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain > importance to the > world at large, IETF participants need to understand their > obligations and > rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether > from the business > world, the academic world, or "the media". > > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are > employed by > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > representatives of their companies rather than as individual > (and independent) > participants. > > Please discuss. > > -pl > > > -- > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Pete Loshin http://www.loshin.com | > | pete@loshin.com +1 781/646-6318 | > | | > | Senior Editor-at-Large Information Security Magazine | > | http://www.infosecuritymag.com | > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 10:20:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA12372 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA11535 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esealnt461 (esealnt461.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.251.61]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with SMTP id f4UE2AN00717 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:02:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: FROM esealnt746.al.sw.ericsson.se BY esealnt461 ; Wed May 30 16:02:09 2001 +0200 Received: by ESEALNT746.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2SVM5Y81>; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:02:09 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" To: "'Scott Bradner'" , ietf@ietf.org, pete@loshin.com Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:02:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are > employed by > > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > > representatives of their companies rather than as > individual (and independent) > > participants. > > would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's > Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? I don't see why not. If any person can argument for his/she's cause and that is held up to actual facts - A's opinion would be as good as B's opinion. You cannot judge a persons knowledge on a given subject by simply looking at his workplace. Of course Cisco or whatever large company probably have chosen their rep. with good care and from the first look his opinion would count more. But going into details you might be surprised how little a "general" rep. from a large company can know about certain topics, but still they have to represent it because it's their job (Who says they even have an interest). The little fellow from bits2go... might as well be an expert on topic as he/she could have been working on topic for a decades! Conclusion: John Doe at Big-O-Mighty-World-wide-Company might not know as much as Jack Doe from Little-and-Extremely-Competent-Company on a given topic. My 2 cents -NS From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 10:50:26 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA13515 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com ([24.0.95.144]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA13117 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cy881567a ([24.17.60.37]) by femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010530143824.PACX6810.femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cy881567a>; Wed, 30 May 2001 07:38:24 -0700 Message-ID: <004e01c0e916$4156e520$253c1118@cy881567a> From: "Mike Haisley" To: "Nicolai Schlenzig \(DXD\)" , "'Scott Bradner'" , , References: Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:38:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well...I'm sure Cisco, and Microsoft already have individuals on their staff who's sole job is to interact with orginizations such as the ietf... But of course this wasn't the original topic of this thread...the fact of if employers can forbid you from talking about ietf activites...of course they can if it's in your contract. Its much the same as the situation free software writers get into with companys who think they own their work... A fairly clear letter of authorization/wavier of contract rights should be pursued before begining work on a project to keep yourself in the clear... -Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" To: "'Scott Bradner'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > > > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are > > employed by > > > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > > > representatives of their companies rather than as > > individual (and independent) > > > participants. > > > > would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's > > Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? > > I don't see why not. If any person can argument for his/she's cause and that is held up to actual facts - A's opinion would be as good as B's opinion. You cannot judge a persons knowledge on a given subject by simply looking at his workplace. > > Of course Cisco or whatever large company probably have chosen their rep. with good care and from the first look his opinion would count more. But going into details you might be surprised how little a "general" rep. from a large company can know about certain topics, but still they have to represent it because it's their job (Who says they even have an interest). The little fellow from bits2go... might as well be an expert on topic as he/she could have been working on topic for a decades! > > Conclusion: John Doe at Big-O-Mighty-World-wide-Company might not know as much as Jack Doe from Little-and-Extremely-Competent-Company on a given topic. > > My 2 cents > > -NS > From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 11:10:55 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA14231 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dokka.maxware.no (dokka.maxware.no [195.139.236.69]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA13815 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from HALVESTR-W2K.alvestrand.no (dokka.maxware.no [195.139.236.69]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07562; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:57:57 +0200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010530164909.04890a70@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: hta@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:53:33 +0200 To: pete@loshin.com From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Cc: ietf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I believe the reason many companies have "interesting" rules here is experience from the past - when a person speaking to the press would have his words interpreted as being a spokesman for their company, either revealing things that were intended to be hidden or promising things the company does not want to commit to. Preferring to err on the safe side, many companies would rather have their press spokesmen speaking to the press. (Cisco permits me to speak openly about IETF matters, but when it comes to saying what Cisco thinks of things or intends to do about things, I am under strict orders to refer to an appropriate spokesperson. So this is strictly my opinion, and is not in any way related to what Cisco thinks - if it thinks about it at all) Harald From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 11:20:28 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA14634 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14054 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28197; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105301506.LAA28197@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: pete@loshin.com cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 May 2001 08:20:26 EDT." <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:06:57 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: > > Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by > formal representatives of organizations. > > I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment > activities. that's what it means. however - It's one thing to talk to Joe Schmoe about his work in IETF, quite another thing to talk to Joe Schmoe of Femtosoft about his work in IETF. If you're going to mention Joe's employer in the article, his employer might care about what is being said. Joe might be doing the IETF work on his own time (this is unusual but not unheard of) and/or doing work which is not entirely aligned with his employer's interests. The reporter would usually like to mention Joe's employer, believing (rightly or wrongly) that this gives more credibility to the article. But if Joe is pursuing his own agenda at IETF (again, this is more common than many people think) then it wouldn't necessarily be appropriate to associate Joe's employer with that work. Nobody is required to talk to reporters. Unfortunately the trade press has a bad reputation for mis-representing technical issues and for placing far too much attention on irrelevant activities and thoroughly brain-damaged ideas. out of frustration from seeing their statements misrepresented and even misquoted, some people have adopted a policy of not talking to reporters at all. It's hard to blame them. Just because this is IETF policy doesn't mean that the employer agrees or even understands this. How many employees are going to sit down with the appropriate people from their company and work out in detail just what they can say (in the context of pure IETF work) or cannot say (in the context of their employer's work) just so they can talk to the press? It's a lot of trouble and they're not getting much in return... When people give you a reason for not doing some favor, most would rather cite some external authority than say "I don't want to do this". In many cultures it is considered impolite to say the latter. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 11:40:21 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA15305 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.9tel.net (smtp2.9tel.net [212.30.96.123]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14301 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25583 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 15:13:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO labaude) (213.203.115.253) by 0 with SMTP; 30 May 2001 15:13:11 -0000 Message-ID: <037e01c0e91b$598b15d0$0100000a@labaude> From: "Avenir Export Avenir Expat" To: Subject: Visitez ce site !!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id LAA14302 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Madame, Monsieur, Vous recevez ce message car une personne de votre entourage vous invite à visiter ce site : http://www.avenir-export.com Ce site regroupe toutes les informations sur l'exportation et la mobilité internationale Si vous souhaitez mettre en place un partenariat avec notre site n'hésitez pas à nous contacter. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 11:50:24 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA15548 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zot.localdomain (IDENT:root@[207.202.151.240]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14607 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.localdomain (IDENT:root@flash [10.0.0.6]) by zot.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA31201; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:19:28 -0700 Received: (from mark@localhost) by flash.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26865; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:19:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: flash.localdomain: mark set sender to mra@pobox.com using -f Sender: mark@flash.localdomain To: Scott Bradner Cc: ietf@ietf.org, pete@loshin.com Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? References: <200105301252.IAA00452@newdev.harvard.edu> From: Mark Atwood Date: 30 May 2001 08:19:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Scott Bradner's message of "Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:45 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Scott Bradner writes: > > would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's > Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? If said rep from BB2G had accumulated cred with other IETF participants, *YES*. In fact, I would have a great deal of respect for someone who can build from scratch an ISP in that environment, it is very different and very challanging compared to yet-another-huge-dialup ISP. The Cisco guy should not get any cred jsut because of the corporation name on his business card. -- Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker. mra@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~mra From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 12:00:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA15816 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stewart.chicago.il.us (IDENT:root@[64.37.247.196]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14745 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stewart.chicago.il.us (IDENT:randall@stewartlin [10.1.1.1]) by stewart.chicago.il.us (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4UFNjh02452; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:23:45 -0500 Sender: randall@STEWART.CHICAGO.IL.US Message-ID: <3B151081.B39563D1@stewart.chicago.il.us> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:23:45 -0500 From: "Randall R. Stewart" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pete@loshin.com CC: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete: Since, I think, you post this due to my deferment to the cisco PR folks let me put a few words in my defense... 1) I always try to be helpful with technical questions. You can look at both the sigtran and tsvwg archives to see that I try to respond both publicly and privately on technical questions. 2) My employer has a policy that PR must clear interviews. They, to my knowledge, are very very fair and work real hard with the interviewer to make sure that they can meet their schedule. I did not push you off to the cisco PR folks thinking you would go away... instead I thought that the good folks at Cisco PR would quickly put us together in time for you to meet your week-end deadline. I can only assume since your contact email came last night and Cisco PR in S.J. is just getting in, that you have not tried to contact them... please do so, I think you will be surprised at how good they are to deal with.. 3) You contacted me at my Cisco address (email wise). This makes it (to me) a formal contact through my employer. You will note that a LOT of my email comes from my home email address. This is due to the fact that I do try to separate the two... However that being said, cisco does let me work on IETF standards has part of my job.. and they DO NOT specify which direction I should push/point on any issue. They are most excellent in letting me determine this... I am really quite impressed with how the company operates.. it seems to value technical correctness... I like that... 4) I feel it is my obligation, as an employee, to honor Cisco's policies on PR and press relations. I realize this is my interpretation of their policies and I may even be going over-board with deferring you to PR.. but I like to error on the side of caution. Besides which in all my past dealings with Cisco PR, they are quite helpful and work hard at getting the interviewer what they need. I would encourage you to please contact cisco PR and I think you will find they will be most cooperative with you on getting you in contact with me... Regards R pete@loshin.com wrote: > > I write about IETF-related topics for a number of publications and websites. > Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive when I ask them > questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors of RFCs and I-Ds. > > However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees of large > companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from speaking to the > press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say something like, "My > company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" and refer me to > their public relations staff. > > RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: > > Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by > formal representatives of organizations. > > I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment > activities. > > Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not supposed to come > under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual property protections. > So there should be no reason why an individual could not talk about what he or > she does within the IETF. > > As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain importance to the > world at large, IETF participants need to understand their obligations and > rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether from the business > world, the academic world, or "the media". > > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are employed by > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > representatives of their companies rather than as individual (and independent) > participants. > > Please discuss. > > -pl > > -- > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Pete Loshin http://www.loshin.com | > | pete@loshin.com +1 781/646-6318 | > | | > | Senior Editor-at-Large Information Security Magazine | > | http://www.infosecuritymag.com | > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ -- Randall R. Stewart randall@stewart.chicago.il.us or rrs@cisco.com 815-342-5222 (cell) 815-477-2127 (work) From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 12:10:12 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA16131 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pntsmtp02.hq.espire.net ([216.253.102.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14798 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by PNTSMTP02.hq.espire.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:11:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Taylor, Johnny" To: pete@loshin.com, ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:09:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Pete, Great points. However, information within the IETF is open to all entities. Therefore, a person or corporation is bound by the by laws to allow their information to be used towards the greater good of the InterNet and to that end all standards / data or open to everyone! JT -----Original Message----- From: pete@loshin.com [mailto:pete@loshin.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:20 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? I write about IETF-related topics for a number of publications and websites. Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive when I ask them questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors of RFCs and I-Ds. However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees of large companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from speaking to the press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say something like, "My company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" and refer me to their public relations staff. RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by formal representatives of organizations. I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment activities. Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not supposed to come under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual property protections. So there should be no reason why an individual could not talk about what he or she does within the IETF. As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain importance to the world at large, IETF participants need to understand their obligations and rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether from the business world, the academic world, or "the media". The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are employed by industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official representatives of their companies rather than as individual (and independent) participants. Please discuss. -pl -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pete Loshin http://www.loshin.com | | pete@loshin.com +1 781/646-6318 | | | | Senior Editor-at-Large Information Security Magazine | | http://www.infosecuritymag.com | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ - This message was passed through ietf_censored@beatles.cselt.it, which is a sublist of ietf@ietf.org. Not all messages are passed. Decisions on what to pass are made solely by Maurizio Codogno. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 12:20:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA16503 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (rly-ip02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15062 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tot-tk.proxy.aol.com (tot-tk.proxy.aol.com [152.163.206.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA24177; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amsoft (AC90CE5D.ipt.aol.com [172.144.206.93]) by tot-tk.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4UFUdm32696; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <018801c0e91d$22199840$cad0fea9@amsoft> From: "James K. Murray \(AMSS Mail\)" To: "Mike Haisley" , "Nicolai Schlenzig \(DXD\)" , "'Scott Bradner'" , , References: <004e01c0e916$4156e520$253c1118@cy881567a> Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:28:08 -0400 Organization: A. M. Software Services, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Apparently-From: AMSOFT1993@aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Employers have the inherent option of forbidding any activities NOT related to your "conditions of employment". Now, I am new to the IETF announcement list, and it was my impression, which I now concede was the wrong impression, that I would be informed via Email of any new Internet Drafts. While I can appreciate members dilemmas, I think these discussions are better suited for chat rooms. If I am on the wrong mailing list, please advise. James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Haisley" To: "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" ; "'Scott Bradner'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:38 AM Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > Well...I'm sure Cisco, and Microsoft already have individuals on their staff > who's sole job is to interact with orginizations such as the ietf... But of > course this wasn't the original topic of this thread...the fact of if > employers can forbid you from talking about ietf activites...of course they > can if it's in your contract. Its much the same as the situation free > software writers get into with companys who think they own their work... A > fairly clear letter of authorization/wavier of contract rights should be > pursued before begining work on a project to keep yourself in the clear... > > -Mike > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" > To: "'Scott Bradner'" ; ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:02 AM > Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > > > > > > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are > > > employed by > > > > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > > > > representatives of their companies rather than as > > > individual (and independent) > > > > participants. > > > > > > would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's > > > Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? > > > > I don't see why not. If any person can argument for his/she's cause and > that is held up to actual facts - A's opinion would be as good as B's > opinion. You cannot judge a persons knowledge on a given subject by simply > looking at his workplace. > > > > Of course Cisco or whatever large company probably have chosen their rep. > with good care and from the first look his opinion would count more. But > going into details you might be surprised how little a "general" rep. from a > large company can know about certain topics, but still they have to > represent it because it's their job (Who says they even have an interest). > The little fellow from bits2go... might as well be an expert on topic as > he/she could have been working on topic for a decades! > > > > Conclusion: John Doe at Big-O-Mighty-World-wide-Company might not know as > much as Jack Doe from Little-and-Extremely-Competent-Company on a given > topic. > > > > My 2 cents > > > > -NS > > > > From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 12:30:19 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA16836 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu ([128.173.14.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15159 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:35:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4UFZTG24654; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:35:29 -0400 Message-Id: <200105301535.f4UFZTG24654@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/19/2001 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Scott Bradner Cc: ietf@ietf.org, pete@loshin.com Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:45 EDT." <200105301252.IAA00452@newdev.harvard.edu> X-Url: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ X-Face-Viewer: See ftp://cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/index.html to decode picture X-Face: 34C9$Ewd2zeX+\!i1BA\j{ex+$/V'JBG#;3_noWWYPa"|,I#`R"{n@w>#:{)FXyiAS7(8t( ^*w5O*!8O9YTe[r{e%7(yVRb|qxsRYw`7J!`AM}m_SHaj}f8eb@d^L>BrX7iO[ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_884010857P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:35:29 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org --==_Exmh_884010857P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:45 EDT, Scott Bradner said: > would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's > Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? Hmm... Bill's Bits-to-Go's technical guy may actually be responsible for more network connections than I am (especially if it's a large apartment building).. Only solution here is to get out the clue-stick and see who's taller. ;) (Admit it, everybody - if you've been here over a month, you own a clue-stick and have made mental notations of where all the usual suspects fit in. And that's as it should be.) -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech --==_Exmh_884010857P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Exmh version 2.2 06/16/2000 iQA/AwUBOxUTQXAt5Vm009ewEQKCSgCZAWJ1ds5hsiy4f6xh9hNwUg8QG7kAmwcd Z0edsSrzKyNg7lBYmqvNF/Bd =5T2r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_884010857P-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 12:40:26 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA17120 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub1.almaden.ibm.com (mailhub1.almaden.ibm.com [198.4.83.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15323 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maui.almaden.ibm.com (maui.almaden.ibm.com [9.1.24.92]) by mailhub1.almaden.ibm.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA46042; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:40:12 -0700 Received: from hursley.ibm.com ([9.29.3.171]) by maui.almaden.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19958; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:40:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3B1513C0.1ED742DF@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:37:37 -0500 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pete@LOSHIN.COM CC: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far as I can see, IETF participants are only bound by IETF rules when they are participating in IETF activities. Brian From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 12:50:17 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA17414 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15442 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gra.isi.edu (gra.isi.edu [128.9.160.133]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4UFjjZ13946; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:45:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Braden Received: (from braden@localhost) by gra.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id PAA12984; Wed, 30 May 2001 15:45:45 GMT Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:45:45 GMT Message-Id: <200105301545.PAA12984@gra.isi.edu> To: ietf@ietf.org, dee3@torque.pothole.com Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org *> *> From: pete@loshin.com *> Message-Id: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> *> To: ietf@ietf.org *> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:20:26 -0400 *> *> >I write about IETF-related topics for a number of publications and websites. *> >Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive when I ask them *> >questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors of RFCs and I-Ds. *> > *> >However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees of large *> >companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from speaking to the *> >press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say something like, "My *> >company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" and refer me to *> >their public relations staff. Sounds to me like a GREAT way to get rid of annoying press members, who take your time, don't listen, and then write articles that are deliberately sensationalistic (which they think sells mags) and short on facts. I can understand using the "company" as a convenient way to avoid this unpleasantness. Bob Braden From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 13:01:53 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA17876 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com ([24.0.95.145]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA15665 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cy881567a ([24.17.60.37]) by femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010530155539.UCFF13259.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cy881567a>; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:55:39 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c0e921$0a12f120$253c1118@cy881567a> From: "Mike Haisley" To: "James K. Murray \(AMSS Mail\)" Cc: References: <004e01c0e916$4156e520$253c1118@cy881567a> <018801c0e91d$22199840$cad0fea9@amsoft> Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:56:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was send to the ietf Discussion list, if you would like more information about the specific lists, go to http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html -Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "James K. Murray (AMSS Mail)" To: "Mike Haisley" ; "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" ; "'Scott Bradner'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > Employers have the inherent option of forbidding any activities NOT related > to your "conditions of employment". Now, I am new to the IETF announcement > list, and it was my impression, which I now concede was the wrong > impression, that I would be informed via Email of any new Internet Drafts. > While I can appreciate members dilemmas, I think these discussions are > better suited for chat rooms. If I am on the wrong mailing list, please > advise. > > James > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Haisley" > To: "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" ; "'Scott > Bradner'" ; ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:38 AM > Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > > > > Well...I'm sure Cisco, and Microsoft already have individuals on their > staff > > who's sole job is to interact with orginizations such as the ietf... But > of > > course this wasn't the original topic of this thread...the fact of if > > employers can forbid you from talking about ietf activites...of course > they > > can if it's in your contract. Its much the same as the situation free > > software writers get into with companys who think they own their work... > A > > fairly clear letter of authorization/wavier of contract rights should be > > pursued before begining work on a project to keep yourself in the clear... > > > > -Mike > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Nicolai Schlenzig (DXD)" > > To: "'Scott Bradner'" ; ; > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:02 AM > > Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? > > > > > > > > > The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are > > > > employed by > > > > > industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official > > > > > representatives of their companies rather than as > > > > individual (and independent) > > > > > participants. > > > > > > > > would the Cisco rep's opinion count the same as the rep for Bill's > > > > Bits-to-Go apartment-building-wide ISP? > > > > > > I don't see why not. If any person can argument for his/she's cause and > > that is held up to actual facts - A's opinion would be as good as B's > > opinion. You cannot judge a persons knowledge on a given subject by simply > > looking at his workplace. > > > > > > Of course Cisco or whatever large company probably have chosen their > rep. > > with good care and from the first look his opinion would count more. But > > going into details you might be surprised how little a "general" rep. from > a > > large company can know about certain topics, but still they have to > > represent it because it's their job (Who says they even have an interest). > > The little fellow from bits2go... might as well be an expert on topic as > > he/she could have been working on topic for a decades! > > > > > > Conclusion: John Doe at Big-O-Mighty-World-wide-Company might not know > as > > much as Jack Doe from Little-and-Extremely-Competent-Company on a given > > topic. > > > > > > My 2 cents > > > > > > -NS > > > > > > > > From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 13:11:29 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA18282 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.vrx.net ([216.13.126.22]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16220 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (dsl0074.netquest.net [206.117.109.74]) by ns1.vrx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFFFD38D; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: 50398.stef@mail.nma.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:10:28 -0700 To: pete@loshin.com, ietf@ietf.org From: Einar Stefferud Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Very simply, the press has no right (that I know of) to demand that anyone respond to press reporters' questions, though I suppose reporters have the right to publish the fact that people will not talk to them. Yet, even this seems to me to be out of bounds in most cases, unless it is an official statement of a company that the company does not wish to make a statement. I expect that stating that "Joe Blow of XYZ Corporation", as a named individual, "refuses to answer a reporter's questions because of company policy" is out of bounds unless the statement comes from a company official as an official statement of the company. There are lots of reasons why people do not like to talk to Press Reporters, and there is no reason for them to be absolutely accurate in citing the reasons why they do not wish to speak to reporters and be reported. So, if someone tells you that their company forbids them to speak to you, what tells you that this answer is even close to the truth (for reporting purposes). How likely is it that they are just throwing up a smoke screen to conveniently (and politely) end the conversation? On what basis can a reporter claim any validity for such a response? So, as I see it, the press does have free speech rights, but but so do interviewees have free silence rights;-)... (Silence of course being a form of Speech;-)... And, in any case, the open work of an IETF working group is openly available in the open discussions on open mailing lists and in open WG face meetings, and in openly published IETF DRAFTS. Cheers...\Stef At 08:20 -0400 30/05/01, pete@loshin.com wrote: >I write about IETF-related topics for a number of publications and websites. >Most IETF participants are incredibly helpful and responsive when I ask them >questions about the work they are doing, particularly authors of >RFCs and I-Ds. > >However, there are (infrequent) exceptions, usually employees of large >companies who believe that their contracts forbid them from speaking to the >press, under any circumstances. These folks usually say something like, "My >company won't allow me to say anything about the RFC I wrote" and refer me to >their public relations staff. > >RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: > > Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by > formal representatives of organizations. > >I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment >activities. > >Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not supposed to come >under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual property protections. >So there should be no reason why an individual could not talk about what he or >she does within the IETF. > >As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain importance to the >world at large, IETF participants need to understand their obligations and >rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether from the business >world, the academic world, or "the media". > >The alternative, IMO, is to have IETF participants who are employed by >industry companies such as Cisco and Microsoft viewed as official >representatives of their companies rather than as individual (and independent) >participants. > >Please discuss. > >-pl > > >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Pete Loshin http://www.loshin.com | >| pete@loshin.com +1 781/646-6318 | >| | >| Senior Editor-at-Large Information Security Magazine | >| http://www.infosecuritymag.com | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 13:21:40 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA18610 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (IDENT:exim@[131.227.76.5]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16985 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1557cy-0007La-00; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:11:16 +0100 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:11:13 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: pete@loshin.com cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? In-Reply-To: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *1557cy-0007La-00*RkBnb3Wprnk* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Wed, 30 May 2001 pete@loshin.com wrote: > Further, as an open organization, IETF activities are not supposed to come > under non-disclosure agreements or receive intellectual property protections. Um. Have you noticed the large ISOC copyright statement at the end of internet drafts? > As IETF standards track specifications continue to gain importance to the > world at large, IETF participants need to understand their obligations and > rights to discuss these activities with outsiders--whether from the business > world, the academic world, or "the media". The right to silence is still a right in most parts of the world. 'My employer won't let me talk about it' strikes me as a foolproof, solid, and eminently _polite_ way of blowing off reporters. IETF _obligations_? To something that is voluntary and memberless? L. and spends most of its time in Minneapolis? PGP From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 13:31:25 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA18996 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailsys01.intnet.net ([198.252.32.143]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA17063 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.90.20.22] (HELO borg2) by mailsys01.intnet.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with SMTP id 8944881; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:38:25 -0400 Message-ID: <013701c0e98d$06f73a20$0201a8c0@borg2> From: "Jon William Toigo" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you... Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 00:49:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0134_01C0E96B.7FBAE0A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0134_01C0E96B.7FBAE0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a long time journalist and practitioner in the IT space, I have never = had any difficulty obtaining information from an IETF member provided = that 1. I agree to the rules set down by the respondent (i.e., no mention of = company or anonymous quoting, if necessary) 2. I agree to clear quotes through corporate PR, if necessary. This question, in my view, is kind of silly. Tech companies generally = want their names in print in a favorable context. Working with IETF to = advance worthwhile standards efforts is generally looked upon as a good = thing. I have found that respect is the key to cooperation. JWT ------=_NextPart_000_0134_01C0E96B.7FBAE0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As a long time journalist and = practitioner in the=20 IT space, I have never had any difficulty obtaining information from an = IETF=20 member provided that
 
1.  I agree to the rules set down = by the=20 respondent (i.e., no mention of company or anonymous quoting, if=20 necessary)
 
2.  I agree to clear quotes = through corporate=20 PR, if necessary.
 
This question, in my view, is kind of = silly. =20 Tech companies generally want their names in print in a favorable = context. =20 Working with IETF to advance worthwhile standards efforts is generally = looked=20 upon as a good thing.  I have found that respect is the key to=20 cooperation.
 
JWT
------=_NextPart_000_0134_01C0E96B.7FBAE0A0-- From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 13:41:41 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id NAA19273 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com ([24.0.95.81]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA18241 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010530170904.QBDP3710.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:09:04 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B152926.6E82ADEC@ureach.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:08:54 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit pete@loshin.com wrote: [..] > RFC 2418, "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", states: > > Participation is by individual technical contributors, rather than by > formal representatives of organizations. > > I take that to mean that IETF activities are separate from employment > activities. Until a WG is formed with a charter that includes "talking to the press", there's nothing about working in the IETF that imposes an obligation to be pushed, poked, and prodded by the media. Here's a litmus test. Try interviewing participants in public, on a WG mailing list. If you get told the discussion is off topic, then your interview isn't part of participation in the IETF. cheers, gja ____________________________________________________________________ Grenville Armitage http://members.home.net/garmitage/ From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 15:03:13 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA21636 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 15:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bsd.ver.megared.net.mx ([200.52.208.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA21446 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Arronte ([10.20.1.9]) by bsd.ver.megared.net.mx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA77819 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:48:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from marronte@ver.megared.net.mx) Message-ID: <01fa01c0e93a$12e2c3c0$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> From: "Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia" To: References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> <3B152926.6E82ADEC@ureach.com> Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:55:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought IETF was about technology, internet, communications and their development, but from a few days now this list has become a senseless place (I don't wanna call it a forum under the present circumstances) where everyone complaint about spam and being interviewed by the media. Both can be solved by following the most basic rules: 1. IETF mailing list was NOT created to receive spam. Just delete the emails which you don't want or like. 2. Is only YOUR bussiness if you want to reveal the information about the projects you are developing for your company, you and only you know the consecuences of revealing the details of your project or the confidential information of your company. Please, IETF list is for technology and its development discussions, not for complaint about spam or cheap politics. Best Regards. Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia Technical Support and Customer Care Supervisor Meg@Red Veracruz. www.megared.net.mx From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 15:12:43 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id PAA21860 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 15:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from btw.plaintalk.bellevue.wa.us ([206.129.5.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA21783 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 15:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (dennisg@localhost) by btw.plaintalk.bellevue.wa.us (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4UJ5vZ05645; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dennisg@software-munitions.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:05:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Glatting X-X-Sender: To: , Subject: RE: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010530114743.H5142-100000@btw.plaintalk.bellevue.wa.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org I once had an employer who made all of their employees sign a contract stating any technical thing they do while employed by the company is owned by the company, regardless of whether it was done on the employee's time and in the employee's home, and the employee isn't allowed to print articles or speak in forums without the company's permission and, if memory serves, content review. Signing the contract was mandatory for continued employment. I refused and was fired (1996). Since employment is usually "at will," companies, who generally have the better legal resource position, can pretty much put any restriction on you that they want. In the case of the IETF, while this "thing" was going on there was an implicit chill and I silently disappeared from forums and commitments. The lesson I learned is to read and negotiate these things up front, and be prepared to walk away. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 16:41:56 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA24033 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com ([24.0.95.82]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA23644 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ureach.com ([24.5.205.138]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010530202759.WZBY19583.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ureach.com>; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:27:59 -0700 Sender: gja Message-ID: <3B1557C5.75A86CBB@ureach.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:27:49 -0700 From: grenville armitage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia CC: ietf@ietf.org Subject: IETF *discussion* Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> <3B152926.6E82ADEC@ureach.com> <01fa01c0e93a$12e2c3c0$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please, IETF list is for technology and its development discussions, not > for complaint about spam or cheap politics. Didn't you know? That's how the IETF works.... (and as the spam thread suggested, you can always unsubscribe or hit delete...) gja From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 17:09:15 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA24797 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (rly-ip02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA23268; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (tot-tr.proxy.aol.com [152.163.201.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id QAA23914; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clark32 (AC970AB8.ipt.aol.com [172.151.10.184]) by tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4UK9g531420; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105302009.f4UK9g531420@tot-tr.proxy.aol.com> From: Betty To: hj4hj6@yahoo.com, hjelm@W3.ORG, hjghjgjh@yahoo.com, hkust@ust.hk, hobbit.makoto@nifty.ne.jp, Hoenicka@pbmail.me.kp.dlr.de, hoenicka_markus@compuserve.com, HomeIncome26@excite.com, homepage@hwg.org, honkkis@tml.hut.fi, horrocks@cs.man.ac.uk, hoschka@sophia.inria.fr, hoschka@W3.ORG, hosting@clearconcepts.ca, HotStock@masterone.com, HotStock@real.com, HOTSTOCKS@aba.com, howardk@fatdog.com, howcome@W3.ORG, howididit@myppt.com, hpgc@mita.lib.keio.ac.jp, hristellem@fgcom.fr, hrmail@rpi.edu, ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk, ht@W3.ORG, html@W3.ORG, http@W3.ORG, hugo@W3.ORG, human@W3.ORG, HV@derfriseur.de, HV@ksshoes.de, hv@of-hachetal.de, HV@theabberley.co.uk, hyatt@netscape.com, hyjia@ns.icm.ac.cn, i27700@lgen.co.kr, iab@isi.edu, iana@iana.org, idish@theory.lcs.mit.edu, ieserv@ketlux.demon.co.uk, iesg@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf@lists.netsol.com, ifc@cs.wpi.edu, ifni@graphics.lcs.mit.edu, iftikhara@atlassoft.com, ig@W3.ORG, igel@surf-callino.de, ignacio.gonzalo@METASOFT.es, igraham@smaug.java.utoronto.ca Subject: money Reply-To: betty@wheelweb.zzn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Apparently-From: UserBetty3945@cs.com X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so gladI finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. =================================================== Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ====== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: =====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. 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So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ========================================================== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ========================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. 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GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ========================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ======================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. 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PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ==================================================== REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" Order Report #1 from: BJ< Welch 1539 S Main ST Darlington, S.C. 29532 USA ___________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" Order Report # 2 from: Dario Va 16541 Blatt BLvd Weston, FL.33326 USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" Order Report # 3 from : Randall Williams 401 Stocks Dairy Road LeesUSAburg Georgia 31763 USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 4 from: Rockin'E Marketing 8325 35th Street NE Warwich,ND 58381. 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IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ====================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jodyaboutreceiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spoutingmy knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ====================================================== ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ======================================================= ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ======================================================= ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ======================================================= ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 17:51:33 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id RAA25526 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA24660 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.21]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4UL1MU23642 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex (sjc-vpn-tmp207.cisco.com [10.21.64.207]) by mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AHE11335; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <055f01c0e94b$c03b3aa0$d45904d1@cisco.com> From: "Melinda Shore" To: References: <200105301220.IAA00839@gateway.loshin> <3B152926.6E82ADEC@ureach.com> <01fa01c0e93a$12e2c3c0$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:01:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please, IETF list is for technology and its development discussions, not > for complaint about spam or cheap politics. Okay, I'd like to complain about the complaints about the complaints. 1) They're messing with my worldview, and 2) the traffic from them is exceeding the complaint traffic, and that exceeds the traffic from the stuff being complained about. Melinda From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 18:21:29 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA26223 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu ([160.36.58.43]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA25712 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02036; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105302156.RAA02036@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 May 2001 13:55:19 CDT." <01fa01c0e93a$12e2c3c0$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:56:58 -0400 Sender: moore@cs.utk.edu X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org > Please, IETF list is for technology and its development discussions, not > for complaint about spam or cheap politics. IMHO, you are mistaken. - the issue of how to deal with spam on IETF lists is entirely relevant to IETF business and therefore an appropriate topic for discussion on the IETF list. - the issues of how IETF participants deal with the press, and how to interpret IETF policies regarding individual participation, are entirely relevant to IETF business and therefore appropriate topics for discussion on the IETF list. IETF participants are often passionate about their beliefs and about wanting the Internet to work well. This occasionally results in heated discussions and strong statements of opinion. These should not be confused with "cheap politics". We cannot entirely separate technology and politics. Many of us are working on this technology because we want to make the world a better place, and that is inherently a political activity. Keith From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 18:31:43 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA26390 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bsd.ver.megared.net.mx ([200.52.208.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26350 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Arronte ([10.20.1.9]) by bsd.ver.megared.net.mx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA12295; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from marronte@ver.megared.net.mx) Message-ID: <003201c0e957$c4071940$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> From: "Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: References: <200105302156.RAA02036@astro.cs.utk.edu> Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:27:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > IMHO, you are mistaken. > > - the issue of how to deal with spam on IETF lists is entirely relevant > to IETF business and therefore an appropriate topic for discussion > on the IETF list. I agree in this point, but the way it was handled I think it was innapropriate because of the people complainig only two or three gave suggestions on how to resolve it... > > - the issues of how IETF participants deal with the press, and how > to interpret IETF policies regarding individual participation, are > entirely relevant to IETF business and therefore appropriate topics > for discussion on the IETF list. > > IETF participants are often passionate about their beliefs and about > wanting the Internet to work well. This occasionally results in heated > discussions and strong statements of opinion. These should not be > confused with "cheap politics". I support clean discussion and strong statements of opinion. But why some complain about if they may say what they do or not, I think we're already grownups enough to know what I can say here or not. Thats what I mean by "cheap politics". > > We cannot entirely separate technology and politics. Many of us are > working on this technology because we want to make the world a better > place, and that is inherently a political activity. > I agree in this point also, and a colleague here told me this very same words. And I also want a better world. So I realized. Thank you Keith for your comments. jmag. From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 19:11:48 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA27034 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 19:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA26965 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 19:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id QAA08649; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:00:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105302300.QAA08649@shell9.ba.best.com> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Can governments forbid you from talking via IETF protocols? X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org It seems like a good idea to repeat this URL with a slightly more apropos subject line: http://www.pulver.com/hr1542 It looks like the ghost of Ma Bell, the U.S. Telecomm Association, is going after IP telephony with a vengance, and politics that probably include most of their annual lobbying budget (still "cheap politics" if you don't think $0.21 of each U.S. phone bill funneling to their Washington, D.C. lobbyists is "expensive"!) I propose a concerted effort by the major non-telco ISPs to devote a portion of their bandwidth, perhaps only during non-peak hours, to PSTN/H.323 gateways open free to the public. Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 22:11:59 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA29855 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu ([128.173.14.103]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA29813 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:04:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4V25FG28473 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:05:15 -0400 Message-Id: <200105310205.f4V25FG28473@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: money In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 May 2001 16:09:43 EDT." <200105302009.f4UK9g531420@tot-tr.proxy.aol.com> X-URL: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ X-Face-Viewer: See ftp://cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/index.html to decode picture X-Face: 34C9$Ewd2zeX+\!i1BA\j{ex+$/V'JBG#;3_noWWYPa"|,I#`R"{n@w>#:{)FXyiAS7(8t( ^*w5O*!8O9YTe[r{e%7(yVRb|qxsRYw`7J!`AM}m_SHaj}f8eb@d^L>BrX7iO[ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:05:14 -0400 X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org On Wed, 30 May 2001 16:09:43 EDT, Betty said: > Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. > The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. > Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails > sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. > Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 > (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report > # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). > Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4 > .... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 > NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT > THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU > CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! OK.. Do I calculate return using an exponential curve or the S-shaped logistics curve? It seems that the former is only appropriate if we assume that people will reply to duplicate postings (since the 10,000 people will certainly NOT choose non-overlapping lists of people). Of course, the average net.moron will take the fact that he's gotten 4 or 5 copies as proof that it works, not as proof that it can't work. Also, doing the math for report #6 is.. umm.. painful ;) /Valdis (who had to find *some* way to put an engineering spin on it) From owner-ietf-outbound Wed May 30 22:41:30 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id WAA01158 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell9.ba.best.com (root@[206.184.139.140]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA01104 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bovik@localhost) by shell9.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id TAA04476; Wed, 30 May 2001 19:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:34:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "James P. Salsman" Message-Id: <200105310234.TAA04476@shell9.ba.best.com> To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Subject: Re: money Cc: ietf@ietf.org X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org >... Do I calculate return using an exponential curve or the S-shaped > logistics curve? Since the number of respondents is not infinite at present, but is theoretically unbounded over time, you have to use a sigmoid curve, but not this logistical sigmoid: Y = a + b / (1 + exp(-c*(X - d))) That one is wrong because the number of respondents is constantly growing, because all those people who have gotten rich can support large families. Instead, you really want the asymmetrical Gompertz sigmoid: Y = a + b*exp(-exp(-c*(X-d))) IN REALITY: LESS THAN A HUNDREDTH OF A PERCENT OF THOSE WHO SEND PONZI SCHEME CHAIN LETTERS EVER MAKE A CENT ON THEM, AND MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE END UP IN COURT FACING SERIOUS CHARGES. PLEASE IGNORE THEM. Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 31 00:11:44 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id AAA02482 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 00:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rip.psg.com (exim@[147.28.0.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA02401 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 00:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from randy by rip.psg.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 155Eor-000BLK-00; Wed, 30 May 2001 15:52:01 -0700 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Keith Moore Cc: Jose Manuel Arronte Garcia , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Can employers forbid you from talking about IETF activities? References: <01fa01c0e93a$12e2c3c0$0901140a@ver.megared.net.mx> <200105302156.RAA02036@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:52:01 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > - the issue of how to deal with spam on IETF lists is entirely relevant > to IETF business and therefore an appropriate topic for discussion > on the IETF list. > > - the issues of how IETF participants deal with the press, and how > to interpret IETF policies regarding individual participation, are > entirely relevant to IETF business and therefore appropriate topics > for discussion on the IETF list. actually, both these probably belong over in poisson randy From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 31 03:51:57 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id DAA18437 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 03:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mel.alcatel.fr (mel.alcatel.fr [212.208.74.132]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA18331 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 03:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aifhs2.alcatel.fr (mailhub.alcatel.fr [155.132.180.80]) by mel.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/SMTP) with ESMTP id IAA31191 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:21:57 +0200 Received: from rtbf8.art.alcatel.fr (rtbf8.art.alcatel.fr [155.132.58.8]) by aifhs2.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/SMTP2) with ESMTP id JAA02014 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:41:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from colmpu03.CAO (colmpu03.art.alcatel.fr [155.132.58.52]) by rtbf8.art.alcatel.fr (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03305 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:40:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rtbdel163s.CAO by colmpu03.CAO (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20714; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:40:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from art.alcatel.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtbdel163s.CAO (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02688 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:40:45 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: dorey@art.alcatel.fr Message-ID: <3B15F57D.A033DB4C@art.alcatel.fr> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:40:45 +0200 From: "sebastien.dorey" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: CDMA and CDMA 2000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2DAD4C806A78147B82EA3D0E" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2DAD4C806A78147B82EA3D0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I would to know where I can find some information related to CDMA and CDMA2000. Thanks in advance, Sebastien --------------2DAD4C806A78147B82EA3D0E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="sebastien.dorey.vcf" Content-Description: Card for sebastien.dorey Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sebastien.dorey.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Dorey;Sebastien tel;work:(+33) 1.55.66.70.93 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.epita.fr/~dorey_s org:ALCATEL BUSINESS SYSTEM;DD/SWD/PLF adr:;;32 avenue Kleber;92707 Colombes;;;France
version:2.1 email;internet:dorey@art.alcatel.fr note;quoted-printable:
=0D=0AWhat's important is not simplicity or complexity,
=0D=0Abut how you bridge the two.
=0D=0A=0D=0A          Larry Wall, Aug. 25, 1998=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A x-mozilla-cpt:;-432 fn:Sebastien Dorey end:vcard --------------2DAD4C806A78147B82EA3D0E-- From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 31 06:01:52 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA19158 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 06:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uicsgtw.cs.ui.ac.id ([152.118.24.8]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA19098 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 05:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caplin.cs.ui.ac.id (caplin.cs.ui.ac.id [152.118.36.9]) by uicsgtw.cs.ui.ac.id (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA26691 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:52:34 +0700 Received: from rmsbase.vlsm.org (mail@rmsbase.acad.cs.ui.ac.id [152.118.26.15]) by caplin.cs.ui.ac.id (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16607 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:59:09 +0700 (JAVT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=vlsm.org ident=rms46) by rmsbase.vlsm.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 155PBU-0000D1-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:56:04 +0700 Message-ID: <3B161533.1AA1031A@vlsm.org> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:56:03 +0700 From: "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" Organization: VLSM-TJT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19pre17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: money References: <200105302009.f4UK9g531420@tot-tr.proxy.aol.com> <200105310205.f4V25FG28473@foo-bar-baz.cc.vt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote: > OK.. Do I calculate return using an exponential curve or the S-shaped > logistics curve? Try the Schroedinger equation with a non-Hermitian Hamiltionian operator in a linear Hilbert space where "f(x) = < x | f >". PS. < x | is a Dirac bra :^) -- Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim - VLSM-TJT - http://rms46.vlsm.org Aint such thing as a free lunch;unless you're the lunch-PH From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 31 08:51:30 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id IAA22753 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torexch1.tor.microage.ca ([209.135.117.66]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA22727 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by morphius.office.interlog.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:49:12 -0400 Message-ID: <14ACCA6523C6D311BF700004AC60E9212D275F@morphius.office.interlog.com> From: Paul Georgiou To: "'James P. Salsman '" , "'Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu '" Cc: "'ietf@ietf.org '" Subject: RE: money Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:49:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Loop: ietf@ietf.org Of course one could also use triangulation as a method for calculating results. After all, is that not the norm for figuring out a Pyramid ? P -----Original Message----- From: James P. Salsman To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Cc: ietf@ietf.org Sent: 5/30/01 10:34 PM Subject: Re: money >... Do I calculate return using an exponential curve or the S-shaped > logistics curve? Since the number of respondents is not infinite at present, but is theoretically unbounded over time, you have to use a sigmoid curve, but not this logistical sigmoid: Y = a + b / (1 + exp(-c*(X - d))) That one is wrong because the number of respondents is constantly growing, because all those people who have gotten rich can support large families. Instead, you really want the asymmetrical Gompertz sigmoid: Y = a + b*exp(-exp(-c*(X-d))) IN REALITY: LESS THAN A HUNDREDTH OF A PERCENT OF THOSE WHO SEND PONZI SCHEME CHAIN LETTERS EVER MAKE A CENT ON THEM, AND MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE END UP IN COURT FACING SERIOUS CHARGES. PLEASE IGNORE THEM. Cheers, James From owner-ietf-outbound Thu May 31 11:30:45 2001 Received: by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id LAA28616 for ietf-outbound.10@ietf.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x2.nokia.com ([131.228.20.22]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA28339 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:20:07 -0400 (EDT) From: EXT-Faycal.Hadjiat@nokia.com Received: from esvir02nok.nokia.com (esvir02nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.34]) by mgw-x2.nokia.com (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f4VFKdm18032 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:20:39 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh24nok.ntc.nokia.com (unverified) by esvir02nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for