From tony.li@tony.li Fri Jan 1 17:24:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AF93A67B5 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 17:24:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.627 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DATE_IN_PAST_24_48=1.627] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ETBCOkA0LnLx for ; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 17:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from QMTA13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9F13A6905 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 2010 17:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from OMTA20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.71]) by QMTA13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id QR141d0091YDfWL5DRQplx; Sat, 02 Jan 2010 01:24:49 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([173.58.189.47]) by OMTA20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id QRRd1d00211o0hH3gRRfUP; Sat, 02 Jan 2010 01:25:53 +0000 Message-ID: <4B3CD2BD.80209@tony.li> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:35:09 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HeinerHummel@aol.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rrg@irtf.org, zhangwei734@gmail.com Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 01:24:49 -0000 Hi Heiner, > So, during this tunneling phase, it seems like the database is > O(N^2) in > the number of possible links. > > No. Take an OSPF-network with N nodes and with n EBGP-TARA-nodes > (N>>n) being the interfaces to the outside internet. It will contribute > approx. 2n to 3n loose links which interconnect these n > EBGP-TARA-nodes(assuming that this ISP network doesn't want to disclose > any knowledge about its internal topological structure). And this is > true in general: if there are n nodes, the computation of the > interconnecting links will determine about 2n to 3n links. But that implies that your external routing will be massively suboptimal with respect to other proposals where you can tunnel directly to the ETR. > Suppose that a geopatch has only a single TARA-router in it. It then > becomes the decapsulator for all TARA traffic arriving into that > geopatch. Who pays for this router? Who pays to deliver traffic from > this router to the destination access ISP? > > What is precisely the scenario ? You pressume that the destination EID > has a TARA-locator, being put into the DNS by some non-TARA-router ????:-( No, again, there's a single TARA-router. I'm interested in the topology and routing internal to the geopatch. This is the problematic area for all geo-aggregation proposals. > Again, if the TARA-router is not part of the interconnect and all local > ISPs do not participate in the interconnect, then you would seem to have > a connectivity issue. > > Again, the horse must come before the carriage - or do I > misunderstanding something? One of us certainly does. ;-) There must be some local interconnect. This is where the economic issues come into play. Tony From jmh@joelhalpern.com Tue Jan 5 06:12:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD823A6840 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:12:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JI-KyeeR4yz3 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.mail.tigertech.net (hermes.mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5DD3A63C9 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E454302AE for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:12:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hermes.tigertech.net Received: from [10.10.10.102] (pool-71-161-51-192.clppva.btas.verizon.net [71.161.51.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D34430225 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 06:12:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B4348D5.70201@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:12:37 -0500 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:12:44 -0000 Yakov Rekhter and I are working on a 500 word critique of ILNP. After checking with Tony, the rrg goal is to have one critique of each proposal. As such, if other folks have been looking at ILNP, and have seen issues they think should be included, I would be happy to collect such things and discuss putting them in this critique. (With 500 words, we have to be stingy.) Yours, Joel M. Halpern From HummelResearch@aol.com Tue Jan 5 10:57:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEC33A683F for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.161 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.559, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id plnz4iXaIZ4c for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (imr-mb02.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108663A67C2 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o05IveLY025585 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:57:40 -0500 Received: from HummelResearch@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.caf.597bae5e (45277) for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-dc02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-dc02.mx.aol.com [205.188.170.2]) by cia-mc03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMC037-d3864b438b9429; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:57:36 -0500 Received: from magic-d17.mail.aol.com (magic-d17.mail.aol.com [172.19.155.133]) by smtprly-dc02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDC026-d3864b438b9429; Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:57:24 -0500 From: hummelresearch@aol.com Message-ID: <2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:57:24 EST To: rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.19.155.133 X-AOL-SENDER: HummelResearch@aol.com Subject: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 19:09:42 -0000 --part1_2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 This is a third attempt to respond to Tony Li via the rrg-mailinglist. Tw= o=20 preceding attempts were neither mirrored back nor included in the archive= . I also try some rephrasing. Heiner =20 In einer eMail vom 02.01.2010 20:57:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 tony.li@tony.li: Hi Heiner, > > Suppose that a geopatch has only a single TARA-router in it. It= =20 then > > becomes the decapsulator for all TARA traffic arriving into that > > geopatch. Who pays for this router? Who pays to deliver traffic > from > > this router to the destination access ISP? > >=20 > > What is precisely the scenario ? You pressume that the > destination EID > > has a TARA-locator, being put into the DNS by some > non-TARA-router ????:-( >=20 > =20 > No, again, there's a single TARA-router. I'm interested in the > topology > and routing internal to the geopatch. This is the problematic area= for > all geo-aggregation proposals. >=20 > Note, this TARA model will yield stretch 1 !!! Only the process how to= =20 > acquire the flat TARA-map is somehow hierarchically organized. > =20 > Whereas hierarchical topological models a la PNNI are bad - the=20 > process itself, as well as the outcome. The Compact Routing studies= =20 > have shown how bad.=20 I'm still not understanding your response to this key point. Indeed, this is a key point, and I hope you see that my kind of hierarch= y=20 is completely different to all the others. According to TARA there are 64800 hierarchies. On top ( and not at the =20 bottom) of each of them, there is one particular geopatch with its interna= l =20 topology. Then, in general, each of them is surrounded by 8 neighboring= =20 geopatches. These nine geopatches form a geopatch-cluster. A geopatch= at the=20 North (rsp. South) pole shall be part of a geopatch-cluster with adjacen= t=20 geopatches 1 to the East, 1 to the West and 3 to the South (rsp. North).= We=20 may define (n,m) geopatch-clusters with n rows of m (=3Dcolumn) geopatche= s.=20 Any (1,1)-geopatch might be part of some (3,3)-, (13,13)-,(37,37)-geopatc= h=20 cluster and of course of the entire globe. I.e. 5 hierarchical layers mig= ht=20 do. (and yet these figures are arbitrary and are for further study). And of course, these hierarchies do overlap. It takes a special kind of= =20 advertisement protocol to ensure that each with TARA enhanced BGP-router= gets=20 the proper (consistent ) set of strict/loose links. In this way the=20 Istanbul effect can be avoided and at the same time we can afford that th= e=20 protocol prescribes relatively small scale ratios to be applied when=20 reduced/skimmed larger topologies are to be computed - as there are only= 10 000=20 DFZ-routers altogether. Example: A geopatch'es (resp. geopatch-cluster's)= =20 topology contains 100 nodes and 250 links. Assume scale ratio =3D 1 : 5.= Then the=20 respectively skimmed network would comprise precisely 20 nodes and=20 approximately 50 links, which will be its contribution to a (3,3) geopatc= h cluster.=20 A proper advertisement protocol must take care that this information is= =20 exchanged across the borders, enabling a recursion of this process while= =20 being aware of the overlaps of geopatch clusters. Shortest patch computation will guarantee stretch-1 behavior instead of= =20 causing stretch-17 as Compact Routing experts emphasize in order to blame= =20 hierarchical concepts; well, their hierarchical concepts. =20 Heiner =20 --part1_2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
This is a third attempt to respond to Tony Li via the rrg-mailin= glist.=20 Two preceding attempts were neither mirrored back nor included in the=20 archive.
I also try some rephrasing.
Heiner
 
In einer eMail vom 02.01.2010 20:57:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 tony.li@tony.li:
Hi=20 Heiner,
>      > Suppose that a geopatch has onl= y a=20 single TARA-router in it.  It then
>      >= =20 becomes the decapsulator for all TARA traffic arriving into that
>=  =20     > geopatch.  Who pays for this router?  Who= pays to=20 deliver traffic
>     from
>    &nb= sp;=20 > this router to the destination access ISP?
>    &nb= sp;=20 >
>      > What is precisely the scenario ?= You=20 pressume that the
>     destination EID
>&nbs= p;=20     > has a TARA-locator, being put into the DNS by=20 some
>     non-TARA-router ????:-(
>
>= =20
>     No, again, there's a single TARA-router.&nbs= p; I'm=20 interested in the
>     topology
> =20    and routing internal to the geopatch.  This is the=20 problematic area for
>     all geo-aggregation=20 proposals.
>
> Note, this TARA model will yield stretch 1= !!!=20 Only the process how to
> acquire the flat TARA-map is somehow=20 hierarchically organized.
> 
> Whereas hierarchical=20 topological models a la PNNI are bad   -  the
>&nb= sp;=20 process itself, as well as  the outcome. The Compact Routing studie= s=20
> have shown how bad.


I'm still not understanding you= r=20 response to this key point.

Indeed, this is a key point, and I hope you see that  my kind of= =20 hierarchy is completely different to all the others.
According to TARA there are 64800 hierarchies. On top ( and not at th= e=20 bottom) of each of them, there is one particular geopatch with its interna= l=20 topology. Then, in general, each of them is surrounded by 8=20 neighboring geopatches.  These nine geopatches form  a=20 geopatch-cluster.  A geopatch at the North (rsp. South) pole sha= ll be=20 part of a geopatch-cluster with  adjacent geopatches 1 to the East,= 1 to=20 the West and 3 to the South (rsp. North). We may define (n,m) geopatch-clu= sters=20 with n rows of m (=3Dcolumn) geopatches. Any (1,1)-geopatch might be= part of=20 some (3,3)-, (13,13)-,(37,37)-geopatch cluster and of course of the entire= =20 globe. I.e. 5 hierarchical layers might do. (and yet these figures are arb= itrary=20 and are for further study).
And of course, these hierarchies do overlap.  It takes a special= kind=20 of advertisement protocol to ensure that each with TARA enhanced BGP-route= r gets=20 the proper (consistent )  set of strict/loose links. I= n this=20 way the Istanbul effect can be avoided and at the same time we can af= ford=20 that the protocol  prescribes relatively small scale ratios to= be=20 applied when reduced/skimmed larger topologies are to be computed - as the= re are=20 only 10 000 DFZ-routers altogether. Example: A geopatch'es (resp.=20 geopatch-cluster's) topology contains 100 nodes and 250 links. Assume scal= e=20 ratio =3D 1 : 5. Then the respectively skimmed network would=20 comprise precisely 20 nodes and approximately 50 links, which will be= its=20 contribution to a (3,3) geopatch cluster. A proper advertisement prot= ocol=20 must take care that this information is exchanged across the borders, enab= ling a=20 recursion of this process while being aware of the overlaps of geopatch=20 clusters.
Shortest patch computation will guarantee stretch-1 behavior  in= stead=20 of causing stretch-17 as Compact Routing experts emphasize in order to bla= me=20 hierarchical concepts; well, their hierarchical concepts.
 
Heiner
 
--part1_2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594_boundary-- From rw@firstpr.com.au Tue Jan 5 20:39:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCADB3A6873 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:39:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GBP9-RVAoFcz for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2723C3A6867 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE909175D3B; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:39:37 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B44140B.7060504@firstpr.com.au> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:39:39 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <4B4348D5.70201@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4B4348D5.70201@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] Critique - ILNP and the other 5 core-edge elimination proposals X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 04:39:42 -0000 Hi Joel, Here are two critiques which I think apply to ILNP and the other 5 proposals which I believe are core-edge elimination, schemes as I wrote: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05562.html GLI-Split hIPv4 Name-Based Sockets Name overlay (NOL) service for scalable Internet routing RANGI - Robin 1 - Core-edge elimination schemes are impossible to introduce widely enough on a voluntary basis to solve the routing scaling problem. Section 4.1 of this paper mentions this, in terms of the core-edge elimination schemes involving changes in edge networks in order to reduce costs in core/transit networks: Towards a Future Internet Architecture: Arguments for Separating Edges from Transit Core Dan Jen, Lixia Zhang, Lan Wang, Beichuan Zhang http://conferences.sigcomm.org/hotnets/2008/papers/18.pdf There is no direct incentive for edge networks to make this investment. Also, the benefits only flow once all edge networks fully adopt the new system. Core-edge elimination involves new host functionality - in stacks and often in applications. This is at odds with the constraints due to the need for widespread voluntary adoption: http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/RRG-2009/constraints/ because the upgraded hosts can only achieve scalable multihoming, TE, portability etc. when communicating with the initially very small subset of other hosts which are also upgraded. These benefits are too small to enable the abandonment of existing unscalable portability, multihoming etc. arrangements and too small to motivate many people to adopt the new system. This list of constraints has been discussed on the RRG and has received considerable support. No-one has suggested this list miss-states the real constraints which exist, or that there is another way of introducing a solution than by widespread voluntary adoption. 2 - Core-edge elimination schemes place more routing and addressing responsibilities on hosts. Its OK for a scalable routing architecture to make this an option, but core-edge elimination schemes enforce it on all hosts. This means all hosts must be more complex and engage in extra communications in order to implement their new responsibilities. This can be a problem even for well-connected hosts, where looking up mapping, engaging in cryptographic exchanges etc. are necessary before user data can be transacted, involving extra delays, state, CPU effort etc. It is completely unworkable for mobile hosts which typically have low CPU capabilities and most importantly are connected via wireless links which are slow, unreliable and expensive. I wrote about this on the RRG and then made a web page: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05471.html http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/RRG-2009/host-responsibilities/ From rw@firstpr.com.au Tue Jan 5 23:29:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A418F3A67E9 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 23:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UAlB-+HlouSA for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 23:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B5A3A67C1 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 23:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9124D175E57; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 18:29:11 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B443BC9.4050105@firstpr.com.au> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:29:13 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Dan Jen Subject: [rrg] draft-jen-mapping does not apply to the TTR Mobility architecture X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 07:29:17 -0000 Short version: This ID assumes that mobility involves the mapping changing every time the MN gains a new physical address. If this were the case, its conclusions would be valid. However, this is not true of the TTR Mobility architecture - so the ID's conclusions are incorrect. I meant to respond to this ID earlier: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jen-mapping-00 Understand Mapping Lixia Zhang and Dan Jen 2009-10-19 Abstract: This draft discusses the different requirements that mapping to support mobility has versus mapping to support routing scalability. In mobility solutions, packets are forwarded to the location where mapping information is stored so that they can be encapsulated to the final destination. In routing scalability solutions, mapping information needs to be available at packet entry points to the network. Attempts to use one mapping system for both purposes can lead to high overhead in either mapping information distribution or otherwise mapping information discovery, as well as stale mapping information being used for data forwarding. I think this analysis is applicable to traditional Mobile IP (MIP) and to the LISP-MN mobility approach: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-lisp-mn-00 It does not apply at all to the TTR Mobility architecture, which was first described in June 2007: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ram/current/msg01518.html and which was fully written up in August 2008: TTR Mobility Extensions for Core-Edge Separation Solutions to the Internet's Routing Scaling Problem Robin Whittle, Steven Russert http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/TTR-Mobility.pdf draft-jen-mapping is written as if all approaches to mobility involve the MN (Mobile Node) being tracked by the mapping system. This is the case for LISP-MN, critiques of which are: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00749.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00772.html In the TTR Mobility architecture, the ETR function is performed by TTRs (Translating Tunnel Routers) which are near, or perhaps within, whatever network the MN is currently using for one or more of its physical addresses. The MN establishes a 2-way tunnel to one or more nearby TTRs and the ITRs in the core-edge separation system tunnel traffic packets to one or more (one only for Ivip) of these TTRs. Another advantage of the TTR approach over conventional MIP or LISP-MN is that the MN can establish this tunnel from behind one or more layers of NAT. The MN can change its physical address frequently, establishing a new 2-way tunnel to the one or more TTRs it is using. So there is no need to change the mapping of its SPI (Scalable PI - AKA "EID" in LISP terminology) address space every time it gains a new physical address. If the MN's new physical address is physically distant - such as more than 1000 km in terms of actual packet paths - from the TTR it is currently using, then the MN can still use it perfectly well. This includes the MN gaining a physical address which, due to topology (such as a geostationary satellite link) involves paths to the current TTR which span the Earth. However, in the interests of shorter paths (reduced latency and fewer dropped packets) it is best for the MN to find a new, closer, TTR and have the mapping changed to point to this new TTR. Ivip can change the mapping in a few seconds, and the other core-edge separation schemes (LISP-ALT, APT, TRRP and TIDR) would take much longer. Still, all such schemes would work with the TTR Mobility architecture. With Ivip, the MN could drop its tunnel to the old TTR within a few seconds, whereas with LISP-ALT etc. it would need to maintain this tunnel for tens of minutes or more, due to the impossibility of getting fresh mapping information to all ITRs which might need it. The central point of draft-jen-mapping is: "attempts to inject mobility mappings into the scalability mapping system have revealed that the two do not fit together very well. "It is still very possible that a mobility solution can co-exist with a scalability solution, but one must be careful not to try to bundle both solutions into one mapping system." However this is based on the assumption that the mapping must be changed, for all ITRs which might need it, every time the MN gains a new physical address: "Once a entry router caches the current address of a mobile nodes, it has no way to know when the mobile moves again, resulting in stale cache entries being used for packet forwarding. So far there has been no good solution to this problem. Using short TTLs for caching simply lead us back to an overload of the mapping system." but this does not apply to the TTR Mobility approach. ITRs cache the mapping of the TTR, which does not change when the MN changes its physical address. - Robin http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/ From shane@castlepoint.net Wed Jan 6 00:10:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDDE3A6810 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 00:10:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.699, BAYES_50=0.001, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LB5jB9ETmBOD for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 00:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dog.tcb.net (dog.tcb.net [64.78.150.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC223A659A for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 00:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by dog.tcb.net (Postfix, from userid 0) id DBB822684EA; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 01:10:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from mbp.castlepoint.net (71-215-78-124.hlrn.qwest.net [71.215.78.124]) (authenticated-user smtp) (TLSv1/SSLv3 AES128-SHA 128/128) by dog.tcb.net with SMTP; Wed, 06 Jan 2010 01:10:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from shane@castlepoint.net) X-Avenger: version=0.7.8; receiver=dog.tcb.net; client-ip=71.215.78.124; client-port=57572; syn-fingerprint=65535:56:1:64:M1452,N,W1,N,N,T,S; data-bytes=0 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Shane Amante In-Reply-To: <4B44140B.7060504@firstpr.com.au> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 01:10:37 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <50C8D2A8-524F-41F4-A936-77079097371E@castlepoint.net> References: <4B4348D5.70201@joelhalpern.com> <4B44140B.7060504@firstpr.com.au> To: Robin Whittle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Critique - ILNP and the other 5 core-edge elimination proposals X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 08:10:56 -0000 Robin, On Jan 5, 2010, at 21:39 MST, Robin Whittle wrote: > 1 - Core-edge elimination schemes are impossible to introduce widely > enough on a voluntary basis to solve the routing scaling problem. I take issue with your assertion that it's "impossible" to upgrade = hosts/servers, particularly on a voluntary basis, to support (say) an = ID-Loc split to solve the routing scaling problem. First, I think this completely ignores the emerging trend of mobile = devices -- not [just] cell phones, but smartphones, netbooks and = (possibly) "tablets". It's important to note that when I mention these = devices I'm not referring solely to the portability/mobility of these = devices, but also (perhaps, more importantly) the **disposability** of = these devices. Specifically, due to breakage, wear & tear, CPU = slowness, lack of memory, lack of new features, etc. people often throw = out these types of devices after a couple of years and buy new ones, = (usually/generally subsidized by the carriers). Even aside from = disposability, it seems the more recent generations of smartphones, = (e.g.: iPhone, Android phones, etc.), often have major releases around = once per year mostly for new features and, more importantly, entice = end-users to upgrade (by themselves) for those new features -- this is = opposed to traditional cell phones of just a few years ago that were = never upgraded largely because they only had one, or two, = applications/uses: Voice & TXT messaging. Assuming one believes this is true, how many of these types of devices = are out there? Well, unfortunately, (from what I can discern) it seems = the IETF stopped measuring the size and, more importantly, composition = of devices on the Internet back in the early '90's. (I would welcome = being corrected, of course). Although I've spent way too much time = looking for *any* [good] data, at all, the "best" data I came across = appears to come from Internet advertising firms[1]. Specifically, look = here: http://www.phonecount.com/pc/count.jsp Take a look at the "sources" links on that Web page, but I believe they = mostly come from here: http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm ... quite frankly, if these numbers are true (and, I'd like to believe = they're directionally correct), they appear quite shocking. Of course, = if there's better or more reliable data that I haven't seen, please do = share. Regardless, the larger trends that I gather from that data is = that: a) mobile/disposable devices are, or will be, growing at an = unprecedented rate we've not witnessed heretofore; and, b) we still have = a lot of Internet growth ahead of us, given that parts of the = [developing] world have such a low penetration of the Internet. = Ultimately, because they're disposable devices, 'natural' breakage and = wear & tear should ensure fairly healthy turnover of these devices and, = more importantly, the O/S'es that drive them. Next, let's take a look at the release cycles of major O/S'es, (note, = this list is completely arbitrary picking on my part, but hopefully = illustrates the point): 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_windows#Timeline_of_releases At a quick glance, from Windows 95 onward, it appears Microsoft averaged = approximately 2 - 3 years to release a new O/S, modulo XP to Vista which = took about double that time. 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X#Versions Mac OS X, in recent years, appears to much more consistently average = around 2 years for a new major O/S release. 3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_linux#Version_history 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RHEL#Version_history It seems as if Fedora is on an ~6 month release schedule whereas RHEL, = (more Enterprise focused), is averaging around 7 - 9 months. Although I = didn't include other mainstream Linux releases, from what I understand = of them they're typically releasing 1 - 2 times per year. ... The larger point with mentioning the above release cycles is, it's = my belief, that what gets released into these (and other) O/S'es is the = _size_ of the changes being made. IOW, if the changes are viewed as = more incremental in nature, (i.e.: perhaps similar to ILNP and = Name-Based Sockets, just to mention two host-based proposals I'm more = familiar with), then it will be significantly easier for them to code = the changes, test them, release the code and start to transition their = developer base onto them. Related to the last point, take a look at = articles related to Mac OS X Snow Leopard and how Apple is transitioning = their developer base toward 64-bit API's -- it's tricky, but they appear = to be doing it quite gracefully. The point of mentioning all of the above is that you appear to be = focusing mostly/solely on the rearview mirror when thinking about a = future Internet Architecture, specifically designing a solution based = around traditional fixed/wired devices that use traditional multihoming = techniques, (while potentially placing significant amounts of complexity = in the network to do so). While we certainly can't forget about the = embedded base that's out there today, it seems false to believe that = host O/S'es are completely static, nor ever get upgraded. Finally, I = would assert that we potentially are at a crossroads where the = composition of the Internet may fundamentally be changing, as we speak, = away from pre-dominantly wired hosts to mobile, disposable devices (if = it hasn't already). It would be very unfortunate if we didn't provide a = well designed, host-based ID-Loc solution out-of-the-gate = (perhaps/likely as not the only solution, but certainly as a key part of = the overall recommended solution) to get us on a better trajectory for = scaling, not to mention putting more intelligence in the hosts to let = them decide/control their own application's fate while at the same time = keeping the network as dumb, inexpensive and [relatively] easy to run. My $0.02, -shane [1] I would assume major content houses like Google, Yahoo, etc. = probably have some great data on browser types and O/S'es, over time, = which would be wonderful to see and help guide us; however, I'm not = aware of anyone of that size making said data publicly available. I've = looked at publicly released reports/presos from Akamai, Arbor Networks, = Renesys & other vendors who would seem to potentially have interesting = data in this regard, however they don't seem to look at Internet device = composition either, unfortunately, from what I can tell. Paging kc @ = CAIDA. :-)= From HeinerHummel@aol.com Wed Jan 6 02:25:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EEC3A6867 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 02:25:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.005 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVsWXWrs-fus for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 02:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (imr-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.206.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC89D3A67EB for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 02:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o06AOeQv024254; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 05:24:40 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id n.c0a.6fe45f2a (37031); Wed, 6 Jan 2010 05:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-dc02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-dc02.mx.aol.com [205.188.170.2]) by cia-db02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB021-d3884b4464de12e; Wed, 06 Jan 2010 05:24:35 -0500 Received: from magic-m02.mail.aol.com (magic-m02.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.73]) by smtprly-dc02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDC028-d3884b4464de12e; Wed, 06 Jan 2010 05:24:30 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <405.1995c045.3875bede@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 05:24:30 EST To: shane@castlepoint.net, rw@firstpr.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_405.1995c045.3875bede_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.73 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] Critique - ILNP and the other 5 core-edge elimination proposals X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 10:25:40 -0000 --part1_405.1995c045.3875bede_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 09:11:05 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 shane@castlepoint.net: The point of mentioning all of the above is that you appear to be focusin= g=20 mostly/solely on the rearview mirror when thinking about a future Interne= t=20 Architecture, specifically designing a solution based around traditional= =20 fixed/wired devices that use traditional multihoming techniques, (while = =20 potentially placing significant amounts of complexity in the network to do= =20 so). While we certainly can't forget about the embedded base that's out= there=20 today, it seems false to believe that host O/S'es are completely static,= =20 nor ever get upgraded. Finally, I would assert that we potentially are = at a=20 crossroads where the composition of the Internet may fundamentally be =20 changing, as we speak, away from pre-dominantly wired hosts to mobile, =20 disposable devices (if it hasn't already). It would be very unfortunate= if we=20 didn't provide a well designed, host-based ID-Loc solution out-of-the-gat= e=20 (perhaps/likely as not the only solution, but certainly as a key part of= the=20 overall recommended solution) to get us on a better trajectory for scaling, not to mention=20 putting more intelligence in the hosts to let them decide/control their= own=20 application's fate while at the same time keeping the network as dumb,=20 inexpensive and [relatively] easy to run. Thanks for this very interesting email. I too believe that most people see= =20 the current task while viewing backwards.re-ECN folks still believe that= =20 congestions stem from TCP-based services and can be handled by telling the= =20 source to slow down the transmission rate. They do not envision video and= tv=20 to eventually millions of receivers to be /become the true reason for=20 congestions (BTW: Multicast popped up in the RRG-list discussion and disa= ppeared=20 again :-( ) =20 I also thought that what TARA enabled wrt mobility as an additional benefi= t=20 is such fundamental that it would overscore whichever alternative: =20 scoped broadcasting in search of the current xTR's location in case of an= =20 outdated respective DNS-location data (BTW accurate broadcasting i.e.not= =20 flooding). =20 Two days ago I responded to DY saying that a TARA-locator would not=20 identify the location of the end user device. Shane, you are also for hos= t-based=20 solutions (quote from above:"it would be very unfortunate if we didn't=20 provide a well designed host-based ID-loc solution..."). The end point= of=20 TARA-forwarding might be extended towards the end user device , peu =E0 = peu: by=20 enhancing OSPF accordingly, too. =20 And in case the enduser shall become part of the topology as well, then it= =20 might take additional granularity (square milliseconds :-) plus extra-data= =20 for enduser differentiation (to be evaluated only closest to the=20 destination). And "multihoming" in case TARA-locator indicated the locati= on of the=20 enduser device itself? Well, then it would take additional=20 "via"-TARA-locators - easy as pie. =20 My "IETF-recommendation":=20 Let LISP proceed as a short-term solution. Conceive the TARA-locator as a globally significant label ( as opposed to= =20 locally significant MPLS-labels) and let's do TARA as a different, and much more beneficial kind of MPLS.= A =20 shim is needed anyway. =20 Heiner=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 --part1_405.1995c045.3875bede_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 09:11:05 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 shane@castlepoint.net:
The=20 point of mentioning all of the above is that you appear to be focusing= =20 mostly/solely on the rearview mirror when thinking about a future Intern= et=20 Architecture, specifically designing a solution based around traditional= =20 fixed/wired devices that use traditional multihoming techniques, (while= =20 potentially placing significant amounts of complexity in the network to= do=20 so).  While we certainly can't forget about the embedded base that'= s out=20 there today, it seems false to believe that host O/S'es are completely= static,=20 nor ever get upgraded.  Finally, I would assert that we potentially= are=20 at a crossroads where the composition of the Internet may fundamentally= be=20 changing, as we speak, away from pre-dominantly wired hosts to mobile,= =20 disposable devices (if it hasn't already).  It would be very unfort= unate=20 if we didn't provide a well designed, host-based ID-Loc solution=20 out-of-the-gate (perhaps/likely as not the only solution, but certainly= as a=20 key part of the overall recommended
  solution) to get us on a= better=20 trajectory for scaling, not to mention putting more intelligence in the= hosts=20 to let them decide/control their own application's fate while at the sam= e time=20 keeping the network as dumb, inexpensive and [relatively] easy to=20 run.
Thanks for this very interesting email. I too believe that most peopl= e see=20 the current task while viewing backwards.re-ECN folks still believe that= =20 congestions stem from TCP-based services and can be handled by tellin= g the=20 source to slow down the transmission rate. They do not envision video and= tv to=20 eventually millions of receivers to be /become the true reason for congest= ions=20 (BTW: Multicast popped up in the RRG-list discussion and disappeared again= =20 :-(   )
 
I also thought that what TARA enabled wrt mobility as an additional= benefit=20 is such fundamental that it would overscore whichever=20 alternative:  scoped broadcasting in search of the current= xTR's=20 location in case of an outdated respective DNS-location data (BT= W=20 accurate broadcasting i.e.not flooding).
 
Two days ago I responded to DY saying that a TARA-locator= would=20 not identify the location of the end user device. Shane, you are also for= =20 host-based solutions (quote from above:"it would be very unfortunate if we= =20 didn't provide a well designed host-based ID-loc solution...").  The= end=20 point of TARA-forwarding might be extended towards the end user device ,= peu =E0=20 peu: by enhancing OSPF accordingly, too.
 
And in case the enduser shall become part of the topology as well, th= en it=20 might take additional granularity (square milliseconds :-) plus extra-data= for=20 enduser differentiation (to be evaluated only closest to the destination).= And=20 "multihoming" in case TARA-locator indicated the location of the endu= ser=20 device itself? Well, then it would take additional "via"-TARA-locators -= easy as=20 pie.
 
My "IETF-recommendation":
Let LISP proceed as a short-term solution.
Conceive the TARA-locator as a globally significant label ( as oppose= d to=20 locally significant MPLS-labels)
and let's do TARA as a different, and much more beneficial kind of MP= LS. A=20 shim is needed anyway.
 
Heiner 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--part1_405.1995c045.3875bede_boundary-- From robert@raszuk.net Wed Jan 6 03:22:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA153A68B7 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 03:22:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bToGlY+UgNhH for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 03:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCE03A68A9 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 03:22:24 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAK4AREurRN+J/2dsb2JhbAC+WJNsgisHgX4EjVY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,229,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="70713214" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Jan 2010 11:22:23 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.57] (sjc-raszuk-87113.cisco.com [10.20.147.254]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o06BMLAi022412; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:22:22 GMT Message-ID: <4B44726C.9030205@raszuk.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:22:20 +0100 From: Robert Raszuk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: heinerhummel@aol.com References: <405.1995c045.3875bede@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <405.1995c045.3875bede@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: rrg@irtf.org, rw@firstpr.com.au Subject: Re: [rrg] Critique - ILNP and the other 5 core-edge elimination proposals X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert@raszuk.net List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:22:26 -0000 Hi Heiner, > A shim is needed anyway. Is this statement a general statement or only referring to to network based solutions ? What do you call a "shim" in host based solutions ? I would not call ILNP's splitting address space to provide a clear division between ID/Loc as a shim or encapsulation. Cheers, R. > In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 09:11:05 Westeuropäische Normalzeit > schreibt shane@castlepoint.net: > > The point of mentioning all of the above is that you appear to be > focusing mostly/solely on the rearview mirror when thinking about a > future Internet Architecture, specifically designing a solution > based around traditional fixed/wired devices that use traditional > multihoming techniques, (while potentially placing significant > amounts of complexity in the network to do so). While we certainly > can't forget about the embedded base that's out there today, it > seems false to believe that host O/S'es are completely static, nor > ever get upgraded. Finally, I would assert that we potentially are > at a crossroads where the composition of the Internet may > fundamentally be changing, as we speak, away from pre-dominantly > wired hosts to mobile, disposable devices (if it hasn't already). > It would be very unfortunate if we didn't provide a well designed, > host-based ID-Loc solution out-of-the-gate (perhaps/likely as not > the only solution, but certainly as a key part of the overall > recommended > solution) to get us on a better trajectory for scaling, not to > mention putting more intelligence in the hosts to let them > decide/control their own application's fate while at the same time > keeping the network as dumb, inexpensive and [relatively] easy to run. > > Thanks for this very interesting email. I too believe that most people > see the current task while viewing backwards.re-ECN folks still believe > that congestions stem from TCP-based services and can be handled > by telling the source to slow down the transmission rate. They do not > envision video and tv to eventually millions of receivers to be /become > the true reason for congestions (BTW: Multicast popped up in the > RRG-list discussion and disappeared again :-( ) > > I also thought that what TARA enabled wrt mobility as an additional > benefit is such fundamental that it would overscore whichever > alternative: scoped broadcasting in search of the current xTR's > location in case of an outdated respective DNS-location data (BTW > accurate broadcasting i.e.not flooding). > > Two days ago I responded to DY saying that a TARA-locator would not > identify the location of the end user device. Shane, you are also for > host-based solutions (quote from above:"it would be very unfortunate if > we didn't provide a well designed host-based ID-loc solution..."). The > end point of TARA-forwarding might be extended towards the end user > device , peu à peu: by enhancing OSPF accordingly, too. > > And in case the enduser shall become part of the topology as well, then > it might take additional granularity (square milliseconds :-) plus > extra-data for enduser differentiation (to be evaluated only closest to > the destination). And "multihoming" in case TARA-locator indicated the > location of the enduser device itself? Well, then it would take > additional "via"-TARA-locators - easy as pie. > > My "IETF-recommendation": > Let LISP proceed as a short-term solution. > Conceive the TARA-locator as a globally significant label ( as opposed > to locally significant MPLS-labels) > and let's do TARA as a different, and much more beneficial kind of MPLS. > A shim is needed anyway. > > Heiner > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg From HeinerHummel@aol.com Wed Jan 6 03:55:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA38C28C0DD for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 03:55:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISJuhG+6Y0Vd for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 03:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (imr-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.206.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8DFA28C0D9 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 03:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o06BstpH023915; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 06:54:55 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id l.c15.53d2f89a (14457); Wed, 6 Jan 2010 06:54:50 -0500 (EST) From: HeinerHummel@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 06:49:28 EST To: robert@raszuk.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1262778568" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Cc: rrg@irtf.org, rw@firstpr.com.au Subject: Re: [rrg] Critique - ILNP and the other 5 core-edge elimination proposals X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:55:37 -0000 -------------------------------1262778568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 12:22:39 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 robert@raszuk.net: Hi Heiner, > A shim is needed anyway. Is this statement a general statement or only referring to to network=20 based solutions ? What do you call a "shim" in host based solutions ? I would not call ILNP's splitting address space to provide a clear=20 division between ID/Loc as a shim or encapsulation. Cheers, R. I repent and crank back to network based solutions. It wasn't an important= =20 statement for whichever solution either.=20 =20 Cheers, Heiner -------------------------------1262778568 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 12:22:39 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 robert@raszuk.net:
Hi=20 Heiner,

> A shim is needed anyway.

Is this statement a= =20 general statement or only referring to to network
based solutions ?= What=20 do you call a "shim" in host based solutions ?

I would not call= ILNP's=20 splitting address space to provide a clear
division between ID/Loc= as a=20 shim or encapsulation.

Cheers,
R.

<= /DIV>
 
I repent and crank back to network based solutions. It wasn't an impo= rtant=20 statement for whichever solution either. 
 
Cheers, Heiner
-------------------------------1262778568-- From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 6 05:56:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D013A684D for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 05:56:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.296 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.296 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UaksN2Q7--gU for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 05:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282C13A67FE for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 05:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3444175B46; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 00:56:21 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 00:56:24 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:56:26 -0000 Short version: This is my fourth critique of ILNP. The third points to the previous two: http://www.irtf.org/pipermail/rrg/2009-January/000701.html Hi Joel, I just read the IDs at: http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ which are all different from the latest versions at the IETF site. Further to my point 2, here are some more thoughts on ILNP and the extra traffic, work, delays etc. it involves - and why this is unacceptable since there are going to be billions of hosts, probably the majority, linked by slow, flaky and expensive wireless links. Following that some further general critiques of ILNP, as best I can understand it from these IDs. DNS lookups involve a global query server network, so these lookups may be slow and unreliable. They may also involve multiple exchanges with various servers in order to find the authoritative server. DNS servers can presumably be on ILNP addresses - that is, they are on ILNP-using hosts which are found via their FQDN, which is then (via a further DNS lookup . . .) turned into an Identifier and Locator (or multiple Identifiers and Locators, each with a priority, enabling one of each to be chosen). If DNS servers are not allowed to be on ILNP addresses, this would be a major constraint on the usefulness of this type of address space. If end-user networks can't run their own DNS servers, but must use servers run by ISPs on conventional IPv6 addresses, then this would be a reason to prefer some other solution which does not have this constraint. This text, on page 12 of draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03 seems to confirm that DNS servers may be on ILNP addresses, rather than ordinary IPv6 addresses: it is preferable to deploy the DNS server function on nodes that have longer TTL values, rather than on nodes that have shorter TTL values. So the initial action of sending a user packet to another host looks potentially complex. The starting point is presumably an FQDN, which is used for a DNS lookup. If the host has to do this itself, without an external resolver, then it may have to do such lookups for multiple DNS servers until it gets an authoritative one. Each such lookup may involve other lookups just in order to communicate with a DNS server. Let's say there are two hosts: Host 1: FQDN ABC Locator XX Identifier AA Host 2: FQDN DEF Locator YY Identifier DD ABC initiates a communication with DEF and DEF responds: ABC does a DNS lookup using DEF as a key, and receives DD and YY. (However, this may take a while, and involve multiple DNS lookups, plus DNS lookups of DNS servers in order to be able to do each such lookup.) ABC sends (from its 128 bit address XXAA) a traffic packet to DEF (addressed to the 128 bit address YYDD) and this initial traffic packet has a destination option containing a nonce which ABC generates specifically for this communication session with DEF. The nonce could be 32 bits, but 96 bits would be more secure. DEF receives this, and does a reverse lookup on AA - it can't just send something back to XXAA on the assumption that XX is the correct Locator for the host whose Identifier is AA. So it does a reverse lookup on AA - which involves potentially multiple DNS lookups until an authoritative answer can be found. This is especially true with long IPv6 addresses which will involve going through a lot of levels of delegation. The reply contains XX and ABC. Now, DEF can send a traffic packet back to ABC. It does so, appending an option header containing its own nonce, generated purely for this particular session with ABC. See how each end has to do DNS lookups - slow, unreliable and on a global query server network - before it can send user data to a host it has not previously communicated with? This stuff is frequently going to be done over slow, unreliable and costly wireless links - because ILNP mandates that every host on the newly structured Net will perform these tasks. These items of information returned from DNS lookups have very short TTL times. The IDs don't specify how short - seconds or tens of seconds - I have no idea. They need to be short - ideally zero TTL - because it is possible, at any time, that one or both hosts would have a different locator. As long as the hosts keep sending data to the addresses they discovered in the above exchange, things will be OK until one of them moves to a new locator. Then, it should send out ICMP Locator Update messages to all the hosts it might be expecting packets from. This could be a large number of hosts. This message must contain in a destination option the nonce originally sent by this host in the initial traffic packets to each of these other hosts. What if this ICMP Locator Update message does not arrive? Traffic packets should contain the nonce destination option for a certain amount of time in an effort to ensure that at least one of these packets is received. In draft-rja-ilnp-nonce-02, page 6, para 2, a time of 1 minute is mentioned. So mobile hosts need to keep sending and receiving these destination options for a minute or so. This is a significant bandwidth burden, especially for VoIP. The burden of sending ICMP Locator Update messages to a bunch of remote hosts is particularly a problem for hosts on wireless networks. What if the wireless link is flaky and these packets are dropped in the link? There's no way the host could sense this, so in an effort to robustly communicate with all the other hosts, it would have to send out several such packets, to each of its correspondent hosts, spaced out by a few seconds, every time it changed its locator. This could be a frequent event in this approach to mobility. Also, whenever a locator is added or lost, the host has to do a secure DNS update to the DNS server which is the master for the reverse mapping of its Identifier and I think the server (if it is different) which is the master for the domain of its FQDN. I am not sure how this works when a host has multiple FQDNs. As noted in draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03 page 13, TTLs for these DNS replies must be very short, at least for the records of mobile hosts: short DNS TTL values are assigned to particular DNS records to ensure that the ubiquitous DNS caching resolvers do not cache volatile values (e.g. Locator records of a mobile node) and consequently return stale information to new requestors. So any host communicating with a mobile host (I am using "host" and "node" interchangeably here) is going to be burdened with frequent DNS lookups - maybe every few or ten seconds, or is it every minute? There is no guidance in these IDs about actual times. If host MMM is on a wireless link (expensive, slow and flaky) then for every host it is communicating with which is mobile, then MMM needs to perform these frequent DNS lookups. This is a serious burden if MMM is itself on a wireless link. Here are some other more general problems I perceive. As best I understand it, secure DNS updates involve the host having a secret key of some kind which is capable of authorising changes in some DNS server. This seems like a good target for an attack - if an attacker could find this secret, such as by installing malware, then they could wrest this identity from the proper host. Perhaps the secret would also enable changing DNS entries for other hosts in the same domain. The inclusion of Destination Options on all traffic packets for a minute or so after the start of a session and after any change in Locator is more than a burden on bandwidth. It presents difficulties with the host's stack telling its applications the maximum packet length they can send. I guess there would need to be a new API for this, to enable the stack to dynamically alter the packet lengths it accepts from applications, since applications themselves would not want or need to know about the Locator change or the 1 minute time-out. The purpose of the LP record in draft-rja-ilnp-dns-02 is not at all clear. The LP record is another FQDN, and there is no indication in the data format diagram of where the length is specified. The purpose is discussed on page 7 of draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03. I have a rough idea of what it is supposed to do, but I think this section is quite hard to understand. There are three kinds of record returned from a DNS query: One or more 64 bit Locators, each with a priority. One or more 64 bit Identifiers, each with a priority. Zero or multiple LP records, each a FQDN, each with a priority. I could find no guidance on what a host is supposed to do with these multiple records and their priorities. Presumably the host would use the record with the numerically lower priority, or choose arbitrarily between two records with the same priority. But what is the purpose of different priority levels? Is the host so somehow determine that the most prioritised Locator, Identifier or LP FQDN is somehow non-functional, and then to choose the next most prioritized? I think this proposal is far from being properly described. In draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03, page 10, there is mention of split-horizon DNS servers. I think this sort of thing should be avoided. What is the relationship between multiple Identifiers and multiple Locators? I understand one physical host having one Identifier and one or more Locators. But how could a single host have two Identifiers? Maybe the multiple Identifiers means that for a given FQDN there are multiple physical hosts - as is done in today's usage of DNS, by returning multiple IP addresses. That's fine - but how does the querying host decide which of these Locators belongs with each separate Identifier? Surely it would be too restrictive to mandate that all these Identifiers had to be reachable via a common set of Locators. One of the purposes of having multiple physical hosts is to put them in different data centres, where they will have different locators - so that if one doesn't work, the application can try another. The general principle of using short caching times as a solution to mobility, where the mobile devices could gain a new physical address at any moment, strikes me as completely unscalable. The DNS servers for these mobile devices are going to get a hammering - and so hosts themselves and resolvers must continually be doing these lookups as long as communication is with a mobile host. Also, the summary includes mention of an IPv4 version of ILNP. I recall debating this on the RRG in the past and deciding that it wouldn't work. The whole of ILNP relies on splitting the 128 bit IPv6 address into two 64 bit sections. Nothing of the sort can work on IPv4. There's no mention of an IPv4 version of ILNP in the four IDs at: http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ . - Robin From jmh@joelhalpern.com Wed Jan 6 08:36:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6661B28C135 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:36:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oDYpQkD0-HuI for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.mail.tigertech.net (hermes.mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C265528C12E for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1734303CA; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hermes.tigertech.net Received: from [10.10.10.102] (pool-71-161-51-192.clppva.btas.verizon.net [71.161.51.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AEB4303CB; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 08:35:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:35:54 -0500 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:36:00 -0000 Sorry, I don't see any sensible way to fold these into the critique we are writing. To be specific, almost all communication currently depends upon DNS, and DNS is sufficiently responsive and reliable that people use it. They often have to perform multiple lookups (although the human being does not realize that.) As such, claiming that DNS "may be slow and unreliable" does not seem grounded in the facts, and I am not willing to include that. The destination option affect on size / MTU is something stacks deal with quite happily today. I would agree that the DNS document needs some improvement. I believe Ran is working on that. I do not believe that such clarity issues are a fundamental issue to be raised in a critique. If, once the engineering beagn, the engineers decided that only one I record was allowed, that would not change the architecture being proposed. The LP records are an optimization. One I think the engineering requires, and which will require better explanation, but again not architectural in itself. (There is an architectural issue that may or may not be addressed by LP, which is in the critique, that renumbering has got to be practical.) Yours, Joel Robin Whittle wrote: > Short version: This is my fourth critique of ILNP. > The third points to the previous two: > > http://www.irtf.org/pipermail/rrg/2009-January/000701.html > > > Hi Joel, > > I just read the IDs at: http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ which are > all different from the latest versions at the IETF site. > > Further to my point 2, here are some more thoughts on ILNP and the > extra traffic, work, delays etc. it involves - and why this is > unacceptable since there are going to be billions of hosts, probably > the majority, linked by slow, flaky and expensive wireless links. > > Following that some further general critiques of ILNP, as best I can > understand it from these IDs. > > > > DNS lookups involve a global query server network, so these lookups > may be slow and unreliable. They may also involve multiple exchanges > with various servers in order to find the authoritative server. > > DNS servers can presumably be on ILNP addresses - that is, they are > on ILNP-using hosts which are found via their FQDN, which is then > (via a further DNS lookup . . .) turned into an Identifier and > Locator (or multiple Identifiers and Locators, each with a priority, > enabling one of each to be chosen). > > If DNS servers are not allowed to be on ILNP addresses, this would be > a major constraint on the usefulness of this type of address space. > If end-user networks can't run their own DNS servers, but must use > servers run by ISPs on conventional IPv6 addresses, then this would > be a reason to prefer some other solution which does not have this > constraint. > > This text, on page 12 of draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03 seems to confirm > that DNS servers may be on ILNP addresses, rather than ordinary IPv6 > addresses: > > it is preferable to deploy the DNS server function on nodes that > have longer TTL values, rather than on nodes that have shorter TTL > values. > > So the initial action of sending a user packet to another host looks > potentially complex. The starting point is presumably an FQDN, which > is used for a DNS lookup. If the host has to do this itself, without > an external resolver, then it may have to do such lookups for > multiple DNS servers until it gets an authoritative one. Each such > lookup may involve other lookups just in order to communicate with a > DNS server. > > Let's say there are two hosts: > > Host 1: FQDN ABC Locator XX Identifier AA > > Host 2: FQDN DEF Locator YY Identifier DD > > ABC initiates a communication with DEF and DEF responds: > > ABC does a DNS lookup using DEF as a key, and receives DD and YY. > > (However, this may take a while, and involve multiple DNS lookups, > plus DNS lookups of DNS servers in order to be able to do each > such lookup.) > > ABC sends (from its 128 bit address XXAA) a traffic packet to DEF > (addressed to the 128 bit address YYDD) and this initial traffic > packet has a destination option containing a nonce which ABC > generates specifically for this communication session with DEF. > > The nonce could be 32 bits, but 96 bits would be more secure. > > DEF receives this, and does a reverse lookup on AA - it can't > just send something back to XXAA on the assumption that XX > is the correct Locator for the host whose Identifier is AA. So > it does a reverse lookup on AA - which involves potentially > multiple DNS lookups until an authoritative answer can be found. > This is especially true with long IPv6 addresses which will > involve going through a lot of levels of delegation. > > The reply contains XX and ABC. > > Now, DEF can send a traffic packet back to ABC. It does so, > appending an option header containing its own nonce, generated > purely for this particular session with ABC. > > See how each end has to do DNS lookups - slow, unreliable and on a > global query server network - before it can send user data to a host > it has not previously communicated with? > > This stuff is frequently going to be done over slow, unreliable and > costly wireless links - because ILNP mandates that every host on the > newly structured Net will perform these tasks. > > > These items of information returned from DNS lookups have very short > TTL times. The IDs don't specify how short - seconds or tens of > seconds - I have no idea. They need to be short - ideally zero TTL - > because it is possible, at any time, that one or both hosts would > have a different locator. > > As long as the hosts keep sending data to the addresses they > discovered in the above exchange, things will be OK until one of them > moves to a new locator. Then, it should send out ICMP Locator Update > messages to all the hosts it might be expecting packets from. This > could be a large number of hosts. This message must contain in a > destination option the nonce originally sent by this host in the > initial traffic packets to each of these other hosts. > > What if this ICMP Locator Update message does not arrive? > > Traffic packets should contain the nonce destination option for a > certain amount of time in an effort to ensure that at least one of > these packets is received. In draft-rja-ilnp-nonce-02, page 6, para > 2, a time of 1 minute is mentioned. > > So mobile hosts need to keep sending and receiving these destination > options for a minute or so. This is a significant bandwidth burden, > especially for VoIP. > > The burden of sending ICMP Locator Update messages to a bunch of > remote hosts is particularly a problem for hosts on wireless > networks. What if the wireless link is flaky and these packets are > dropped in the link? There's no way the host could sense this, so in > an effort to robustly communicate with all the other hosts, it would > have to send out several such packets, to each of its correspondent > hosts, spaced out by a few seconds, every time it changed its > locator. This could be a frequent event in this approach to mobility. > > Also, whenever a locator is added or lost, the host has to do a > secure DNS update to the DNS server which is the master for the > reverse mapping of its Identifier and I think the server (if it is > different) which is the master for the domain of its FQDN. I am not > sure how this works when a host has multiple FQDNs. > > As noted in draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03 page 13, TTLs for these DNS > replies must be very short, at least for the records of mobile hosts: > > short DNS TTL values are assigned to particular DNS records > to ensure that the ubiquitous DNS caching resolvers do not > cache volatile values (e.g. Locator records of a mobile node) > and consequently return stale information to new requestors. > > So any host communicating with a mobile host (I am using "host" and > "node" interchangeably here) is going to be burdened with frequent > DNS lookups - maybe every few or ten seconds, or is it every minute? > There is no guidance in these IDs about actual times. > > If host MMM is on a wireless link (expensive, slow and flaky) then > for every host it is communicating with which is mobile, then MMM > needs to perform these frequent DNS lookups. > > This is a serious burden if MMM is itself on a wireless link. > > > Here are some other more general problems I perceive. > > As best I understand it, secure DNS updates involve the host having a > secret key of some kind which is capable of authorising changes in > some DNS server. This seems like a good target for an attack - if an > attacker could find this secret, such as by installing malware, then > they could wrest this identity from the proper host. Perhaps the > secret would also enable changing DNS entries for other hosts in the > same domain. > > > The inclusion of Destination Options on all traffic packets for a > minute or so after the start of a session and after any change in > Locator is more than a burden on bandwidth. It presents difficulties > with the host's stack telling its applications the maximum packet > length they can send. I guess there would need to be a new API for > this, to enable the stack to dynamically alter the packet lengths it > accepts from applications, since applications themselves would not > want or need to know about the Locator change or the 1 minute time-out. > > > The purpose of the LP record in draft-rja-ilnp-dns-02 is not at all > clear. The LP record is another FQDN, and there is no indication in > the data format diagram of where the length is specified. > > The purpose is discussed on page 7 of draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03. I > have a rough idea of what it is supposed to do, but I think this > section is quite hard to understand. > > There are three kinds of record returned from a DNS query: > > One or more 64 bit Locators, each with a priority. > One or more 64 bit Identifiers, each with a priority. > Zero or multiple LP records, each a FQDN, each with a priority. > > I could find no guidance on what a host is supposed to do with these > multiple records and their priorities. > > Presumably the host would use the record with the numerically lower > priority, or choose arbitrarily between two records with the same > priority. > > But what is the purpose of different priority levels? > > Is the host so somehow determine that the most prioritised Locator, > Identifier or LP FQDN is somehow non-functional, and then to choose > the next most prioritized? I think this proposal is far from being > properly described. > > In draft-rja-ilnp-intro-03, page 10, there is mention of > split-horizon DNS servers. I think this sort of thing should be avoided. > > What is the relationship between multiple Identifiers and multiple > Locators? I understand one physical host having one Identifier and > one or more Locators. But how could a single host have two Identifiers? > > Maybe the multiple Identifiers means that for a given FQDN there are > multiple physical hosts - as is done in today's usage of DNS, by > returning multiple IP addresses. That's fine - but how does the > querying host decide which of these Locators belongs with each > separate Identifier? Surely it would be too restrictive to mandate > that all these Identifiers had to be reachable via a common set of > Locators. One of the purposes of having multiple physical hosts is > to put them in different data centres, where they will have different > locators - so that if one doesn't work, the application can try > another. > > The general principle of using short caching times as a solution to > mobility, where the mobile devices could gain a new physical address > at any moment, strikes me as completely unscalable. The DNS servers > for these mobile devices are going to get a hammering - and so hosts > themselves and resolvers must continually be doing these lookups as > long as communication is with a mobile host. > > Also, the summary includes mention of an IPv4 version of ILNP. I > recall debating this on the RRG in the past and deciding that it > wouldn't work. The whole of ILNP relies on splitting the 128 bit > IPv6 address into two 64 bit sections. Nothing of the sort can work > on IPv4. There's no mention of an IPv4 version of ILNP in the four > IDs at: http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ . > > > - Robin > From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 6 17:49:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FB628C16A for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:49:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ERm1Gv3VIP8c for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FD928C164 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4D5175D75; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:49:21 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:49:24 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 01:49:27 -0000 Hi Joel, Thanks for your response. Here's the shortest complete statement I can think of about how ILNP would degrade performance in general, and how this would be worse when one or both hosts are on slow or unreliable links. This involves some points which were not in my previous message - about the DNS server having to do potentially multiple DNS lookups in order to reply, and how each such lookup could itself involve more DNS lookups . . . which themselves involve more DNS lookups. Today, two hosts can perform an initial exchange of application packets without the need to send any other packets or perform any kind of DNS or mapping lookup. So the total time for the exchange is the RTT between the two hosts. Before two ILNP hosts can complete an initial exchange of application packets, the first host must perform a DNS lookup before sending its packet, and the second must do the same before sending its response. Since DNS is a global system, and since response and query packets can be lost, this typically involves significant delays, even for hosts with fast, low-latency links to the DFZ. The DNS lookups themselves - whether performed by the host or by a nearby and better-connected resolver - may involve multiple queries to different servers in order to find an authoritative server. This is exacerbated by the requirement to keep TTLs very short for any lookup concerning a mobile ILNP host. The total delay in receiving the DNS response is further increased by some or many of the DNS servers being on ILNP addresses - being identified by a FQDN and so requiring a DNS lookup to find the Identifier and Locator, just in order to send the query to the server. Furthermore, if the querier is on an ILNP address, the DNS server cannot reply without also performing a DNS lookup (which itself may involve multiple DNS servers and further sets of DNS lookups in order to be able to send queries to these DNS servers). This burden of DNS lookup activity and the delays it imposes on any initial packet exchange would be a serious disincentive to the adoption of ILNP. These DNS lookup delays are significantly worsened for any host which is on a wireless link - such as a 3G link with cost, latency and reliability problems. In the future mobile hosts with 3G wireless links are likely to comprise a significant proportion of all hosts - probably the majority. The performance degradation due to these DNS lookups over wireless links is a serious disincentive to adoption, as is the very high load placed on the global DNS system by the short RTT for all records concerning these billions of mobile hosts. This won't fit in your 500 word critique, but at least it is here as part of the RRG discussion. - Robin From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 6 19:27:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8603228C16B for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P3yT9JzaTTA2 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B29728C0FD for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72902175E20; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 14:27:41 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:27:44 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 03:27:45 -0000 Hi Joel, Further to my previous message, my concern about these recursive DNS lookups is probably reduced by what I expect a DNS server would do when returning a reference to a second DNS server which is more authoritative: including the Locator and Identifier records of the second server along with the FQDN which properly identifies the second server. Still, as far as I know, whenever a DNS server replies to a querier (a sending host or its resolver) it has not recently sent a packet to, it needs to perform a DNS lookup on that querier. As far as I can tell, this would be a reverse lookup of the Identifier part of the source address in the query packet. This would give it the FQDN, which it probably doesn't need, but would also give multiple Locators by which the querier could be reached. In the case of the querier being a mobile host, the DNS server will need to perform a reverse lookup even if it recently sent a packet to this host, because the TTL on DNS records for mobile hosts will be "very short". When the mobile host sends a query to a resolver, the resolver will be doing this stuff with one or more other DNS servers. But when the resolver needs to send the response back to the mobile host, it will likewise typically need to do a reverse lookup on that host's Identifier, because any cached reverse lookup records will have a "very short" TTL. So with ILNP, these DNS lookups keep multiplying like the Sorcerer's Apprentice's brooms. Just because DNS delay is judged to be "acceptable" in today's Internet doesn't mean it will be with these ILNP changes. I believe that even today's DNS delays are unacceptable when they add to the time required to complete an exchange of initial packets. All DNS lookups today are potentially slow or very slow due to DNS being a global system and because they are all subject to failure and the need for a retry if the query or response packet is lost. I still have no idea how multiple Identifiers can be related to multiple Locators. ILNP has been in development for years and I would have thought that obvious problems like this would have been sorted out long ago. If this is regarded as mere "engineering", then I think the "architects" should take a greater interest in engineering before being confident their overall structure is sound. The solution is probably to have a set of Locators for each of the Identifiers. Likewise, what is the purpose of Identifiers and Locators with priorities if the current IDs do not specify how a host is to choose between them? This isn't just low-level detail - it is fundamental to the protocol design and therefore to the "architecture". - Robin From jmh@joelhalpern.com Wed Jan 6 19:37:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB03828C189 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:37:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ln5oFJ4jIdr1 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.mail.tigertech.net (hermes.mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9A028C187 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907F04305D0; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hermes.tigertech.net Received: from [10.10.10.102] (pool-71-161-51-192.clppva.btas.verizon.net [71.161.51.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7694305C7; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:36:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B4556D9.6080200@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:36:57 -0500 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 03:37:02 -0000 ? Why would the DNS Server need to perform a DNS lookup for ILNP? The DNS server has received a request packet. It has an ID and a locator. The response will simply go back to the ID and locator pair the request came from. There is no need to look up anything. Yours, Joel Robin Whittle wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Further to my previous message, my concern about these recursive DNS > lookups is probably reduced by what I expect a DNS server would do > when returning a reference to a second DNS server which is more > authoritative: including the Locator and Identifier records of the > second server along with the FQDN which properly identifies the > second server. > > Still, as far as I know, whenever a DNS server replies to a querier > (a sending host or its resolver) it has not recently sent a packet > to, it needs to perform a DNS lookup on that querier. As far as I > can tell, this would be a reverse lookup of the Identifier part of > the source address in the query packet. This would give it the FQDN, > which it probably doesn't need, but would also give multiple Locators > by which the querier could be reached. > > In the case of the querier being a mobile host, the DNS server will > need to perform a reverse lookup even if it recently sent a packet to > this host, because the TTL on DNS records for mobile hosts will be > "very short". > > When the mobile host sends a query to a resolver, the resolver will > be doing this stuff with one or more other DNS servers. But when the > resolver needs to send the response back to the mobile host, it will > likewise typically need to do a reverse lookup on that host's > Identifier, because any cached reverse lookup records will have a > "very short" TTL. > > So with ILNP, these DNS lookups keep multiplying like the Sorcerer's > Apprentice's brooms. > > Just because DNS delay is judged to be "acceptable" in today's > Internet doesn't mean it will be with these ILNP changes. > > I believe that even today's DNS delays are unacceptable when they add > to the time required to complete an exchange of initial packets. > > All DNS lookups today are potentially slow or very slow due to DNS > being a global system and because they are all subject to failure and > the need for a retry if the query or response packet is lost. > > > I still have no idea how multiple Identifiers can be related to > multiple Locators. ILNP has been in development for years and I > would have thought that obvious problems like this would have been > sorted out long ago. If this is regarded as mere "engineering", then > I think the "architects" should take a greater interest in > engineering before being confident their overall structure is sound. > > The solution is probably to have a set of Locators for each of the > Identifiers. > > Likewise, what is the purpose of Identifiers and Locators with > priorities if the current IDs do not specify how a host is to choose > between them? This isn't just low-level detail - it is fundamental > to the protocol design and therefore to the "architecture". > > > - Robin > From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 6 20:30:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4558528C188 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:30:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WNkNaZ6iRAZl for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128AE28C0DC for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5F5175CBD; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:29:55 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B456346.5070101@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:29:58 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> <4B4556D9.6080200@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4B4556D9.6080200@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:30:00 -0000 Hi Joel, You wrote: > ? Why would the DNS Server need to perform a DNS lookup for ILNP? > > The DNS server has received a request packet. It has an ID and a > locator. The response will simply go back to the ID and locator pair > the request came from. There is no need to look up anything. I was assuming that the DNS server performs the same process as any other host when sent a packet from a host it has not recently communicated with. If DNS servers or any other hosts do not behave like this - and you suggest that their behavior would be different - then this needs to be clearly specified in the IDs. I just read them and I don't recall any statements to this effect. I think we need to be careful about assumptions when major revisions to the Internet protocols are being discussed. Just because the ILNP IDs mention DNS doesn't mean that these exchanges would be the same as today's DNS exchanges. - Robin From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 6 22:41:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1782B3A6819 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:41:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.163 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.163 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OTQJl6RN4Mei for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8149D3A691E for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A111759E9; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 17:40:55 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4581FA.105@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 17:40:58 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> <4B4556D9.6080200@joelhalpern.com> <4B456346.5070101@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B456346.5070101@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:41:08 -0000 Joel wrote to me off-list that the ILNP proposal involves special arrangements for a DNS server to respond to a requester which is using ILNP. These arrangements apparently involve the DNS server not needing to do an DNS lookup before sending the reply packet. He didn't point to the relevant text. This may be the case, but I was unable to find it in the four IDs and I had a quick look at all the material linked to from: http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ and didn't see anything along these lines. We can't be expected to know what a proposal involves other than by reading the IDs and other documents. That said, if anyone is about to read the 2.5 year old ivip-arch ID, please hold off for a few days - I am writing a shorter, completely revised version. - Robin From tony.li@tony.li Wed Jan 6 22:56:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3573A63EC for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:56:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMeBOPGb8onH for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from QMTA11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC6A3A6819 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from OMTA10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.28]) by QMTA11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id SWqx1d0070cQ2SLABWrwMT; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:51:56 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by OMTA10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id SWwc1d0073L8a8Q8WWwdtY; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:56:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4B4585A2.9080808@tony.li> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:56:34 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> <4B4556D9.6080200@joelhalpern.com> <4B456346.5070101@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B456346.5070101@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:56:39 -0000 Robin Whittle wrote: > Hi Joel, > > You wrote: > >> ? Why would the DNS Server need to perform a DNS lookup for ILNP? >> >> The DNS server has received a request packet. It has an ID and a >> locator. The response will simply go back to the ID and locator pair >> the request came from. There is no need to look up anything. > > I was assuming that the DNS server performs the same process as any > other host when sent a packet from a host it has not recently > communicated with. > > If DNS servers or any other hosts do not behave like this - and you > suggest that their behavior would be different - then this needs to > be clearly specified in the IDs. I just read them and I don't recall > any statements to this effect. > > I think we need to be careful about assumptions when major revisions > to the Internet protocols are being discussed. Just because the ILNP > IDs mention DNS doesn't mean that these exchanges would be the same > as today's DNS exchanges. Robin, Your confusion here is your assumption that the host MUST do an ILNP lookup. In fact, that is not required and that is the basis for interoperability with legacy hosts. Thus, the DNS server need not perform an ILNP lookup before replying. In fact, since it is very likely to be a one packet transaction, performing the lookup is simply unnecessary and pessimal. Regards, Tony From tony.li@tony.li Wed Jan 6 22:57:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1473A6819 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i30QhBl8lqxY for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from QMTA11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BA03A63EC for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from OMTA20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.87]) by QMTA11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id SWrE1d00D1smiN4ABWswQx; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:52:56 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by OMTA20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id SWxc1d0033L8a8Q8gWxdMd; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:57:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4B4585DF.7070402@tony.li> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:57:35 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> <4B44BBEA.5040005@joelhalpern.com> <4B453DA4.4080703@firstpr.com.au> <4B4554B0.1050806@firstpr.com.au> <4B4556D9.6080200@joelhalpern.com> <4B456346.5070101@firstpr.com.au> <4B4581FA.105@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B4581FA.105@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP critique 4 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:57:38 -0000 Robin Whittle wrote: > > We can't be expected to know what a proposal involves other than by > reading the IDs and other documents. We can be expected to use a bit of common sense tho... Tony From tony.li@tony.li Wed Jan 6 23:49:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E309828C0ED for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.266, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cw+0v6+8y3KW for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B38228C0E9 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from OMTA16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id SXoA1d0031ZMdJ4A2Xph0a; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:49:41 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by OMTA16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id SXrs1d0013L8a8Q8cXrsw5; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:51:52 +0000 Message-ID: <4B459212.8070306@tony.li> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:49:38 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hummelresearch@aol.com References: <2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <2c2ce.597a9ca5.3874e594@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:49:43 -0000 Hi Heiner, > Indeed, this is a key point, and I hope you see that my kind of > hierarchy is completely different to all the others. > According to TARA there are 64800 hierarchies. On top ( and not at the > bottom) of each of them, there is one particular geopatch with its > internal topology. What is the internal topology of the geopatch? Tony From HeinerHummel@aol.com Thu Jan 7 02:27:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD9A28C0DF for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 02:27:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.900, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1QhhtmYAx6IG for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 02:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com (imr-db02.mx.aol.com [205.188.91.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618653A67B2 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 02:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (imo-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.136]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o07AQt4v000707; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:26:55 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id i.ca7.5892e53e (55733); Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-mc03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mc03.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.99]) by cia-md03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD038-d3d84b45b6e8149; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 05:26:53 -0500 Received: from magic-m04.mail.aol.com (magic-m04.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.75]) by smtprly-mc03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMC032-d3d84b45b6e8149; Thu, 07 Jan 2010 05:26:48 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <35f.245e0f8.387710e8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:26:48 EST To: tony.li@tony.li MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_35f.245e0f8.387710e8_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.75 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:27:15 -0000 --part1_35f.245e0f8.387710e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In einer eMail vom 07.01.2010 08:49:46 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 tony.li@tony.li: Hi Heiner, > Indeed, this is a key point, and I hope you see that my kind of=20 > hierarchy is completely different to all the others. > According to TARA there are 64800 hierarchies. On top ( and not at the= =20 > bottom) of each of them, there is one particular geopatch with its=20 > internal topology.=20 What is the internal topology of the geopatch? It is the viewed topology inside a geopatch, acquired by BGP-enhancements,= =20 consisting of TARA-links i.e. strict links/GRE-tunnels/loose links between= =20 2 TARA-nodes, whereby the loose links may be built of strict/(less) =20 loose/GRE-tunnel links. =20 Heiner =20 --part1_35f.245e0f8.387710e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 07.01.2010 08:49:46 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 tony.li@tony.li:
Hi=20 Heiner,

> Indeed, this is a key point, and I hope you see that=  =20 my kind of
> hierarchy is completely different to all the=20 others.
> According to TARA there are 64800 hierarchies. On top (= and=20 not at the
> bottom) of each of them, there is one particular geo= patch=20 with its
> internal topology.


What is the internal to= pology=20 of the geopatch?
It is the viewed topology inside a geopatch, acquired by BGP-enhancem= ents,=20 consisting of TARA-links i.e. strict links/GRE-tunnels/loose links be= tween=20 2 TARA-nodes, whereby the loose links may be built of strict/(le= ss)=20 loose/GRE-tunnel links.
 
Heiner
 
--part1_35f.245e0f8.387710e8_boundary-- From HummelResearch@aol.com Thu Jan 7 03:56:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629DD3A686A for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 03:56:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.880, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zioARyy0ouB for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 03:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (imr-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.206.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFBE3A67E7 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 03:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o07BuF3m020956; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 06:56:15 -0500 Received: from HummelResearch@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id n.d01.698bab6b (48600); Thu, 7 Jan 2010 06:56:12 -0500 (EST) From: HummelResearch@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 07:01:40 EST To: rw@firstpr.com.au, rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1262865700" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-SENDER: HummelResearch@aol.com Cc: jenster@CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: [rrg] draft-jen-mapping does not apply to the TTR Mobility architecture X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 11:56:35 -0000 -------------------------------1262865700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 08:29:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 rw@firstpr.com.au: Abstract: This draft discusses the different requirements that mapping to support mobility has versus mapping to support routing scalability. In mobility solutions, packets are forwarded to the location where mapping information is stored so that they can be encapsulated to the final destination. In routing scalability solutions, mapping information needs to be available at packet entry points to the network. Attempts to use one mapping system for both purposes can lead to high overhead in either mapping information distribution or otherwise mapping information discovery, as well as stale mapping information being used for data forwarding. I think this analysis is applicable to traditional Mobile IP (MIP) and to the LISP-MN mobility approach: _http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-lisp-mn-00_=20 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-lisp-mn-00)=20 IMHO, mobility needs some sort of stability - coming from outside. I once= =20 referred to the lie baron Muenchhausen's story how he rescued himself from= =20 drowning, by grabbing his own hair and pulling himself out of the deep=20 water. Also, it is not very helpful if one endangered swimmer throws a li= fe-belt=20 to the other swimmer. I think everyone understands (meanwhile) what I wan= t=20 to express in this context. Heiner =20 =20 It does not apply at all to the TTR Mobility architecture, which was first described in June 2007: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ram/current/msg01518.html and which was fully written up in August 2008: TTR Mobility Extensions for Core-Edge Separation Solutions to the Internet's Routing Scaling Problem Robin Whittle, Steven Russert http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/TTR-Mobility.pdf draft-jen-mapping is written as if all approaches to mobility involve the MN (Mobile Node) being tracked by the mapping system. This is the case for LISP-MN, critiques of which are: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00749.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00772.html In the TTR Mobility architecture, the ETR function is performed by TTRs (Translating Tunnel Routers) which are near, or perhaps within, whatever network the MN is currently using for one or more of its physical addresses. The MN establishes a 2-way tunnel to one or more nearby TTRs and the ITRs in the core-edge separation system tunnel traffic packets to one or more (one only for Ivip) of these TTRs. Another advantage of the TTR approach over conventional MIP or LISP-MN is that the MN can establish this tunnel from behind one or more layers of NAT. The MN can change its physical address frequently, establishing a new 2-way tunnel to the one or more TTRs it is using. So there is no need to change the mapping of its SPI (Scalable PI - AKA "EID" in LISP terminology) address space every time it gains a new physical address. If the MN's new physical address is physically distant - such as more than 1000 km in terms of actual packet paths - from the TTR it is currently using, then the MN can still use it perfectly well. This includes the MN gaining a physical address which, due to topology (such as a geostationary satellite link) involves paths to the current TTR which span the Earth. However, in the interests of shorter paths (reduced latency and fewer dropped packets) it is best for the MN to find a new, closer, TTR and have the mapping changed to point to this new TTR. Ivip can change the mapping in a few seconds, and the other core-edge separation schemes (LISP-ALT, APT, TRRP and TIDR) would take much longer. Still, all such schemes would work with the TTR Mobility architecture. With Ivip, the MN could drop its tunnel to the old TTR within a few seconds, whereas with LISP-ALT etc. it would need to maintain this tunnel for tens of minutes or more, due to the impossibility of getting fresh mapping information to all ITRs which might need it. The central point of draft-jen-mapping is: "attempts to inject mobility mappings into the scalability mapping system have revealed that the two do not fit together very well. "It is still very possible that a mobility solution can co-exist with a scalability solution, but one must be careful not to try to bundle both solutions into one mapping system." However this is based on the assumption that the mapping must be changed, for all ITRs which might need it, every time the MN gains a new physical address: "Once a entry router caches the current address of a mobile nodes, it has no way to know when the mobile moves again, resulting in stale cache entries being used for packet forwarding. So far there has been no good solution to this problem. Using short TTLs for caching simply lead us back to an overload of the mapping system." but this does not apply to the TTR Mobility approach. ITRs cache the mapping of the TTR, which does not change when the MN changes its physical address. - Robin http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/ _______________________________________________ rrg mailing list rrg@irtf.org http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg -------------------------------1262865700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In einer eMail vom 06.01.2010 08:29:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 rw@firstpr.com.au:
Abstract:

     This draft discusses= the=20 different requirements that mapping
     to support mo= bility=20 has versus mapping to support routing
     scalability= . In=20 mobility solutions, packets are forwarded to
     the= =20 location where mapping information is stored so that they
 =20    can be encapsulated to the final destination.  In=20 routing
     scalability solutions, mapping informatio= n=20 needs to be
     available at packet entry points to= the=20 network.  Attempts to
     use one mapping system= for=20 both purposes can lead to high
     overhead in either= =20 mapping information distribution or
     otherwise map= ping=20 information discovery, as well as stale
     mapping= =20 information being used for data forwarding.


I think this anal= ysis=20 is applicable to traditional Mobile IP (MIP)
and to the LISP-MN mobil= ity=20 approach:

  http://tools.= ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-lisp-mn-00
IMHO, mobility needs some sort of stability - coming from outside. I= once=20 referred to the lie baron Muenchhausen's story how he rescued himself from= =20 drowning, by grabbing his own hair and pulling himself out of the deep wat= er.=20 Also, it is not very helpful if one endangered swimmer throws a life-belt= to the=20 other swimmer. I think everyone understands (meanwhile) what I want to exp= ress=20 in this context.
Heiner
 
 

It=20 does not apply at all to the TTR Mobility architecture, which was
fir= st=20 described in June 2007:

 =20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ram/current/msg01518.html

an= d=20 which was fully written up in August 2008:

  TTR Mobility=20 Extensions for Core-Edge Separation Solutions to the
  Internet'= s=20 Routing Scaling Problem
  Robin Whittle, Steven Russert
 = ;=20 http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/TTR-Mobility.pdf


draft-jen-= mapping=20 is written as if all approaches to mobility involve
the MN (Mobile No= de)=20 being tracked by the mapping system.  This is
the case for LISP-= MN,=20 critiques of which are:

 =20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00749.html
 = ;=20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00772.html

I= n the=20 TTR Mobility architecture, the ETR function is performed by
TTRs=20 (Translating Tunnel Routers) which are near, or perhaps within,
whate= ver=20 network the MN is currently using for one or more of its
physical=20 addresses.  The MN establishes a 2-way tunnel to one or more
nea= rby=20 TTRs and the ITRs in the core-edge separation system tunnel
traffic= packets=20 to one or more (one only for Ivip) of these TTRs.
Another advantage= of the=20 TTR approach over conventional MIP or
LISP-MN is that the MN can esta= blish=20 this tunnel from behind one or
more layers of NAT.

The MN can= change=20 its physical address frequently, establishing a new
2-way tunnel to= the one=20 or more TTRs it is using.  So there is no
need to change the map= ping=20 of its SPI (Scalable PI - AKA "EID" in
LISP terminology) address spac= e=20 every time it gains a new physical
address.

If the MN's new ph= ysical=20 address is physically distant - such as more
than 1000 km in terms of= =20 actual packet paths - from the TTR it is
currently using, then the MN= can=20 still use it perfectly well.  This
includes the MN gaining a phy= sical=20 address which, due to topology
(such as a geostationary satellite lin= k)=20 involves paths to the
current TTR which span the Earth.

Howeve= r, in=20 the interests of shorter paths (reduced latency and fewer
dropped pac= kets)=20 it is best for the MN to find a new, closer, TTR and
have the mapping= =20 changed to point to this new TTR.  Ivip can change
the mapping= in a=20 few seconds, and the other core-edge separation
schemes (LISP-ALT, AP= T,=20 TRRP and TIDR) would take much longer.
Still, all such schemes would= work=20 with the TTR Mobility
architecture.  With Ivip, the MN could dro= p its=20 tunnel to the old TTR
within a few seconds, whereas with LISP-ALT etc= . it=20 would need to
maintain this tunnel for tens of minutes or more, due= to=20 the
impossibility of getting fresh mapping information to all ITRs=20 which
might need it.

The central point of draft-jen-mapping=20 is:

  "attempts to inject mobility mappings into the scalabi= lity=20 mapping
   system have revealed that the two do not fit tog= ether=20 very well.

  "It is still very possible that a mobility solu= tion=20 can co-exist
   with a scalability solution, but one must= be=20 careful not to try
   to bundle both solutions into one map= ping=20 system."

However this is based on the assumption that the mapping= must=20 be
changed, for all ITRs which might need it, every time the MN gains= =20 a
new physical address:

  "Once a entry router caches the= =20 current address of a mobile nodes,
   it has no way to know= when=20 the mobile moves again, resulting in
   stale cache entries= being=20 used for packet forwarding.  So far
   there has been= no=20 good solution to this problem.  Using short TTLs
   fo= r=20 caching simply lead us back to an overload of the mapping
  = ;=20 system."

but this does not apply to the TTR Mobility approach.&nb= sp;=20 ITRs cache the
mapping of the TTR, which does not change when the MN= =20 changes its
physical address.

  - Robin    &nbs= p;=20     =20 http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/






__________= _____________________________________
rrg=20 mailing=20 list
rrg@irtf.org
http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg
 
-------------------------------1262865700-- From a.spinella@rfc1925.net Thu Jan 7 06:26:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BCD93A67F3 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 06:26:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.253 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HOST_EQ_STATICB=1.372] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jV5PXFpt9+zk for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 06:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from joy.rfc1925.net (static-217-133-230-42.clienti.tiscali.it [217.133.230.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751383A67B0 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 06:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from joy.rfc1925.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by joy.rfc1925.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BF212544D for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:24:57 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rfc1925.net Received: from joy.rfc1925.net ([127.0.0.1]) by joy.rfc1925.net (joy.rfc1925.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id pr5vSMtEr2Ye for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:24:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from zeta (unknown [194.246.127.224]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: a.spinella@rfc1925.net) by joy.rfc1925.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1FB9125443 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:24:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: RRG References: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:24:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: $witch Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B449688.5090006@firstpr.com.au> User-Agent: Opera Mail/10.10 (FreeBSD) Subject: [rrg] actual debates on proposals X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:26:39 -0000 Hi, all the useful proposal-report at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05562.html is a good start point to direct an (almost at all) ignorant into a summarization. follow your discussion lead me to a simple observation : it seem that there is a contradiction as expressed by (7a) (corollary). Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three). ........... (10) One size never fits all. from RFC 1925 (ok, it's a 1st april, but there is truth, inside) or, in other therms it is obvious that a "major" change will have a "major" impact and corresponding (whatever expressed) cost. must a reader mainly care about "backward compatibility", "performances", "cost", "style" or what ? and little bit different question from "constrain list for voluntary adoption" : what are, if any, the underling directive from RRG about "Good, Fast, Cheap" balance ? is it RRG (on behalf of internet community) major interest to have "fast" or "cheap" or "good" transition|implementation|maintenance|performance|compatibility ? you know, RRG messages are plenty of linked details and is it not easy to follow all your mind and specific knowledge, don't blame me if off-topic, am the "dumb one" of the list...... :D cheers Alessandro From charriesun@gmail.com Sat Jan 9 06:10:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A141F3A67ED for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:10:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pVJVB32efYXC for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.221.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A7A3A6783 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so8732262qyk.7 for ; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 06:10:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=Y2yfZeZtvyuqBE/zdqzINPnItyZztDW6lAseRrNAcLM=; b=N8kVUsPBx8hxT0CQ3TZrW7hlhsqcDIf2TOfm+s2J5nKiA1uoExZlQbwbbmBDxAueWm Q4BiRVzAMKLIy7rB2a5ugaOJFwpSx0W7XN/lg6L3N678HzVrCC9qB7YUANzA7m84XyME 7RpzYCfdvFsK7CS30B/cGZyS3VVDFObzB2Ohs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=GOng5lQULfH1bEqZMXiOxuIrUTZrlJCtblWpeSnnK1Mr1QhhyKToG2REE1udPDG/pc tSf9zsbmWgUWmjwkzoFIpgxlPGWud7wZIUIUO5RkT8f8Il2tDbSeOWuL7vQ3Fn6c1s2R PGj8VXOlG8GC6RkuQ8iiLEBhYFEoDvtcDXszk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.3.211 with SMTP id 19mr857696vco.7.1263046249265; Sat, 09 Jan 2010 06:10:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 22:10:49 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001090610s5608089cs728559dcbe950e0c@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: RRG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001517576d9005bd38047cbbdf98 Subject: [rrg] Analyzing the separation work for scalable routing X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 14:10:56 -0000 --001517576d9005bd38047cbbdf98 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517576d9005bd2b047cbbdf96 --001517576d9005bd2b047cbbdf96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello all, I recently wrote a brief analysis of the separation concerns, including: (1) the meaing of the semantics overloaded in the IP address; (2) the responsibility of hosts vs. routers in the separation context; (3) current techniques for the incorporation of the separation to the routing system, the mapping mechanism design; and at last a brief review of the deployement requirements on the separtion work. Some conclusions: to meet different needs of hosts and routers we should do two-plane separations, here I approve GLI split for its basic thoughts. New elements should be introduced if existed elements are too clumsy and reluctant to change. New services can get profit and existed elements can benefit from the services immediately. This can conform to an economic model. The paper is mainly to provide some considerations for people to think the separation work and the proposals now on the list. Any critiques and comments are warmly welcomed. Best wishes, Letong --001517576d9005bd2b047cbbdf96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
=A0=A0=A0 I recently wrote a brief analysis of the separation concerns= , including:
=A0=A0=A0 (1) the meaing of the semantics overloaded in the IP address= ;
=A0=A0=A0 (2)=A0the responsibility of hosts vs. routers in the separat= ion context;
=A0=A0=A0 (3) current techniques for the incorporation of the=A0separa= tion to=A0the=A0routing system, the mapping mechanism design; and at last a= brief review of the deployement requirements on the separtion work.
=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Some conclusions: to meet different needs of hosts and route= rs we should do=A0two-plane separations, here I approve GLI split=A0for its= basic thoughts.
=A0=A0=A0 New elements should be introduced=A0if existed elements are = too clumsy and=A0reluctant to change.=A0New=A0services can=A0get profit=A0a= nd existed elements can benefit from the services immediately. This=A0can= =A0conform to an=A0economic model.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0 The paper is mainly to=A0provide some=A0considerations for= =A0people=A0to think=A0the separation work=A0and=A0the=A0proposals now=A0on= the=A0list. Any=A0critiques and comments are warmly=A0welcomed.
=A0
Best wishes,
Letong
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MDAgbg0KMDAwMDE3MjQ0MyAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMTcyODAwIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAxNzMxNTEg MDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDE3MzUwOSAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMTczODcyIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAxNzQy MTcgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDE3NDU2MyAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMTc0NjYwIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAx OTk5MjMgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIwMDA1MyAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMjAwMTY3IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAw MDAyMDU0ODAgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIwNTYxMCAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMjA1NzM2IDAwMDAwIG4N CjAwMDAyMTEwNzIgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIxMTE0NiAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMjExMjkwIDAwMDAw IG4NCjAwMDAyMTE0NTQgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIyNDc2OCAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMjI0Nzk1IDAw MDAwIG4NCjAwMDAyMjQ4MzEgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIyNTE4NCAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMjI1MzE0 IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAyMjU0OTQgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIyNTUxNiAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMjI1 NTkzIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAyMjU2NjcgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDIyNTc0MiAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAw MjI5MTI5IDAwMDAwIG4NCnRyYWlsZXINCjw8L1NpemUgMTEyPj4NCnN0YXJ0eHJlZg0KMTE2DQol JUVPRg0K --001517576d9005bd38047cbbdf98-- From jmh@joelhalpern.com Mon Jan 11 05:54:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7E428C147 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:54:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.193 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.193 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.882, BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mkmkds6ATt0c for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.mail.tigertech.net (hermes.mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9153F28C146 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A90430146 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:54:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hermes.tigertech.net Received: from [10.10.10.102] (pool-71-161-51-192.clppva.btas.verizon.net [71.161.51.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A9D4301FD for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:54:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:54:28 -0500 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:54:31 -0000 Below is a 500 word critique of ILNP that Yakov Rekhter and I have put together. I appreciated the comments that other folks sent about ILNP. I apologize for not being able to adequately capture all the concerns that were expressed to me. Yours, Joel M. Halpern The primary issue for ILNP is how the deployment incentives and benefits line up with the RRG goal of reducing the rate of growth of entries and churn in the core routing table. If a site is currently using PI space, it can only stop advertising that space when the entire site is ILNP capable. This needs at least clear elucidation of the incentives for ILNP which are not related to routing scaling, in order for there to be a path for this to address the RRG needs. Similarly, the incentives for upgrading hosts need to align with the value for those hosts. A closely related question is whether this mechanism actually addresses the sites need for PI addresses. Assuming ILNP is deployed, the site does achieve flexible, resilient, communication using all of its Internet connections. While the proposal address the host updates when the host learns of provider changes, there are other aspects of provider change that are not addressed. This includes renumbering router, subnets, and certain servers. (It is presumed that most servers, once the entire site has moved to ILNP, will not be concerned if their locator changes. However, some servers must have known locators, such as the DNS server.) The issues described in draft-carpenter-renum-needs-work-04 will be ameliorated, but not resolved. To be able to adopt this proposal, and have sites use it, we need to address these issues. When a site changes points of attachment only a small amount of DNS provisioning should be required. The LP record is apparently intended to help with this. It is also likely that the use of dynamic DNS will help this. The ILNP mechanism is described as being suitable for use in conjunction with mobility. This raises the question of race conditions. To the degree that mobility concerns are valid at this time, it is worth asking how communication can be established if a node is sufficiently mobile that it is moving faster than the DNS update and DNS fetch cycle can effectively propagate changes. This proposal does presume that all communication using this mechanism is tied to DNS names. while it is true that most communication does start from a DNS name, it is not the case that all exchanges have this property. Some communication initiation and referral can be done with an explicit I/L pair. This does appear to require some extensions to the existing mechanism (for both sides adding locators). In general, some additional clarity on the assumptions regarding DNS, particularly for low end devices, would seem appropriate. One issue that this proposal shares with many others is the question of how to determine which locator pairs (local and remote) are actually functional. This is an issue both for initial communications establishment, and for robustly maintaining communication. While it is likely that a combination of monitoring of traffic (in the host, where this is tractable), coupled with other active measures, can address this. ICMP is clearly insufficient. From HeinerHummel@aol.com Mon Jan 11 10:10:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCA13A68A9 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.301, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZC14WAJTg5O3 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (imr-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.206.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F6D3A6847 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da04.mx.aol.com (imo-da04.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.202]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0BIAeBW031296 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:10:40 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.bc2.5d086a6b (37175) for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-de02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-de02.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.169]) by cia-ma05.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA052-b2374b4b69921b0; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:10:37 -0500 Received: from magic-d14.mail.aol.com (magic-d14.mail.aol.com [172.19.187.159]) by smtprly-de02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDE024-b2374b4b69921b0; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:10:26 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <8ff9.41fae612.387cc391@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:10:25 EST To: rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-----------------------------1263233426" X-AOL-IP: 172.19.187.159 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: [rrg] internet economics X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:10:49 -0000 -------------------------------1263233426 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8ff9.41fae612.387cc391_boundary" --part1_8ff9.41fae612.387cc391_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both Bill and Darrel used to argue against my concept of geo-location rather than prefix-based routing by stressing the "internet economics". In compliance with the distance-vector paradigm, internet economics/policies like "who is allowed to use my ISP network" are soustained implicitly: it is up to whether or not a particular prefix is communicated to the respective next-ISP. Admitted, my non-DV-based concept does not provide this implicitly. However, and see the email-excerpt below from the LISP-ml: LISP cannot provide it either !!! Heiner --part1_8ff9.41fae612.387cc391_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Both Bill and Darrel used to argue against my concept of geo-location= =20 rather than prefix-based routing by stressing the "internet=20 economics". 
In compliance with the distance-vector paradigm, internet=20 economics/policies like "who is allowed to use my ISP network" are soustai= ned=20 implicitly: it is up to whether or not a particular prefix is communicated= to=20 the respective next-ISP. Admitted, my non-DV-based concept does not provid= e this=20 implicitly.
 
However, and see the email-excerpt below from the=20 LISP-ml:  LISP cannot provide it either !!!
 
Heiner
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--part1_8ff9.41fae612.387cc391_boundary-- -------------------------------1263233426 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dh11.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dh11.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.65.31]) by air-mf06.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINMF063-8bef4b4afec4171; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:34:44 -0500 Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by mtain-dh11.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 9C4FD3800010D for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 05:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051813A6907; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:34:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lisp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764A13A6903 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:34:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lN5UgmLWRhPJ for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.ac.upc.edu (gw.ac.upc.edu [147.83.30.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D793A672F for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.14] (81.184.58.60.dyn.user.ono.com [81.184.58.60]) by gw.ac.upc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E668B6B02E4; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:34:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B4AFEB4.8010605@ac.upc.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:34:28 +0100 From: Florin Coras User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luigi Iannone References: <20100107162425.9D6B26BE58D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <098F66D4-56C3-42E5-8CDE-FF3C7AAEEF57@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> In-Reply-To: <098F66D4-56C3-42E5-8CDE-FF3C7AAEEF57@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> Cc: Noel Chiappa , lisp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lisp] Design discussion -06-(3) -> returnalloverlapping prefixes X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lisp-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lisp-bounces@ietf.org x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d411f4b4afec35f70 X-AOL-IP: 64.170.98.32 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Hello Luigi, Luigi Iannone wrote: > Hi Noel, > > On Jan 7, 2010, at 17:24 , Noel Chiappa wrote: > > [snip] > > >> As to LISP, ITRs could refuse to forward traffic from sources they are not >> supposed to handle, but the problem is 'how do they know what sources they >> are supposed to be handling'? >> > > Can't they just check the lisp database? > > >> If they are also an ETR, they know, >> > > Isn't the contrary? Current spec do not mandate a mapping for the source address of a packet in the ETR (unless it is also an ITR and there is bidirectional traffic). > > If the ETR has a mapping for the source address in its cache, then it do some sanity checks and eventually drop the packet. > > .. or am I wrong somewhere? > > > I might be the one confused but isn't Noel speaking here about some sort of uRPF? Meaning the ITR should not forward packets from within its domain if the source EID of the packet is not from the domains EID-prefix. But the boxes that are simple ITRs don't know the domain's EID-prefix, only the ETRs know it (they use it in registrations at Map-Servers). .. or maybe I'm wrong :) Florin > Luigi > > >> but the >> design does allow of exit-only (i.e. ITR-only) boxes; handling those would >> mean more configuration (bad). >> >> Noel >> _______________________________________________ >> lisp mailing list >> lisp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp >> > > _______________________________________________ lisp mailing list lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp -------------------------------1263233426-- From lear@cisco.com Mon Jan 11 10:43:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17C03A6824 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:43:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0zs+Xa9S2gX for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2D23A63C9 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:43:37 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqoAAHsAS0uQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACDXotzjAUBARYkBqgehwCMd4NZVgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,257,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="2336163" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2010 18:14:45 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4932.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4932.cisco.com [10.61.83.67]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0BIhXcX027652; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:43:33 GMT Message-ID: <4B4B7154.1020203@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:43:32 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: heinerhummel@aol.com References: <8ff9.41fae612.387cc391@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8ff9.41fae612.387cc391@aol.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070803080101070208020809" Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] internet economics X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:43:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070803080101070208020809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heiner, While your subject line piques my interest, there is not enough context either in the original message you are quoting or in your responding text below for me to understand what you are claiming. I would suggest that you more formally lay out your point of view. Regards, Eliot On 1/11/10 7:10 PM, heinerhummel@aol.com wrote: > Both Bill and Darrel used to argue against my concept of geo-location > rather than prefix-based routing by stressing the "internet economics". > In compliance with the distance-vector paradigm, internet > economics/policies like "who is allowed to use my ISP network" are > soustained implicitly: it is up to whether or not a particular prefix > is communicated to the respective next-ISP. Admitted, my non-DV-based > concept does not provide this implicitly. > > However, and see the email-excerpt below from the LISP-ml: LISP > cannot provide it either !!! > > Heiner > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg > --------------070803080101070208020809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heiner,

While your subject line piques my interest, there is not enough context either in the original message you are quoting or in your responding text below for me to understand what you are claiming.  I would suggest that you more formally lay out your point of view.

Regards,

Eliot

On 1/11/10 7:10 PM, heinerhummel@aol.com wrote:
Both Bill and Darrel used to argue against my concept of geo-location rather than prefix-based routing by stressing the "internet economics". 
In compliance with the distance-vector paradigm, internet economics/policies like "who is allowed to use my ISP network" are soustained implicitly: it is up to whether or not a particular prefix is communicated to the respective next-ISP. Admitted, my non-DV-based concept does not provide this implicitly.
 
However, and see the email-excerpt below from the LISP-ml:  LISP cannot provide it either !!!
 
Heiner
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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--------------070803080101070208020809-- From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Mon Jan 11 12:01:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FE63A6945 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:01:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVXeZg09S52Q for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f48.google.com (mail-pw0-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727E93A6951 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwj14 with SMTP id 14so1815996pwj.7 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sxam3XXLF0NskLOXM41MpAi51xgAQRBG9OvEmdO7yDI=; b=Ku1fo1E2Yxx4AgPKDwx/ez5FIBDYtdIfprno/Jp14Ih6n50DbIDEXIIzl1hhawSk8f JmXGY2k1bJsjoH8OhN6XwcnHbkxI8EsSg35BgfPQCCGmMs+gGq630MeYGQc2394mGGLf 4m4DBSm4ExUK5miYSEADBbmyT8KjS3kQe39q4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Olx3Yq9dnsNzxffpzevWbHOzo509hQVPYf2EDECndZhwTlp6+lL9crRczq/MjHtIG3 tzw3AfNNVGF19wPa1Jio/6ps3/hTuP6Oc7PBFNE7kcL/+gMtO/seVTzMrsBmheExwfGW kPCCtzxoN9gfPrFJ9OEY/snfd1tqaw7AlUqbg= Received: by 10.141.108.11 with SMTP id k11mr22249776rvm.237.1263240058249; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm391135pzk.5.2010.01.11.12.00.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:00:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B4B8377.6020800@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:00:55 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:01:04 -0000 On 2010-01-12 02:54, Joel M. Halpern wrote: . > > One issue that this proposal shares with many others is the question > of how to determine which locator pairs (local and remote) are > actually functional. This is an issue both for initial communications > establishment, and for robustly maintaining communication. While it > is likely that a combination of monitoring of traffic (in the host, > where this is tractable), coupled with other active measures, can > address this. ICMP is clearly insufficient. As a side comment, RFC5534 is somewhat more than a proof of concept that solves this problem. Although it's designed as part of shim6, the method could be extracted. Brian From HeinerHummel@aol.com Mon Jan 11 13:53:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D463A68A9 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:53:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3S9a9lnNmNZt for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (imr-ma06.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.142]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4153A682E for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0BLrP8Y029425; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:53:25 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id c.cb4.5fb397fc (37578); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.102]) by cia-mb05.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB053-b2b54b4b9dc149; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:53:17 -0500 Received: from magic-m08.mail.aol.com (magic-m08.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.4]) by smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME017-b2b54b4b9dc149; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:53:05 EST To: lear@cisco.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_f821.4c33799.387cf7c1_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.20.29.4 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] internet economics X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:53:48 -0000 --part1_f821.4c33799.387cf7c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In einer eMail vom 11.01.2010 19:43:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 lear@cisco.com: While your subject line piques my interest, there is not enough context= =20 either in the original message you are quoting or in your responding text= =20 below for me to understand what you are claiming. I would suggest that= you=20 more formally lay out your point of view. Regards, Eliot With classic DV-complying BGP you receive reachability information from= =20 some router precisely then when that router allows you to use him for=20 transit. Otherwise he won't give you that information. Hence this sort of= policy=20 is implemented implicitly. With LISP+ALT you have to pull the needed ETR information from some=20 ALT-entity and I can hardly imagine neither that the requested RLOC info= rmation=20 is stored there, combined with who is and who is not allowed to get it.= =20 =20 I was told several times that I would not understand the internet =20 economics, because TARA would use Dijkstra to determine the best next hop= (based on=20 some combined map of several and different zooms). I could only defend =20 TARA by saying, well then any restriction "who is allowed to use which lin= k" =20 needs to be communicated somehow explicitly.=20 =20 But obviously LISP is in no better shape. Just the opposite. I think, that= =20 LISP is even in a worse shape wrt this restriction issue.=20 =20 And this is not the only issue: see the horrible overlapping EID discussio= n=20 - especially as there is no need at all to propagate any single prefix.= =20 =20 Heiner =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 --part1_f821.4c33799.387cf7c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 11.01.2010 19:43:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 lear@cisco.com:
While=20 your subject line piques my interest, there is not enough context either= in=20 the original message you are quoting or in your responding text below fo= r me=20 to understand what you are claiming.  I would suggest that you more= =20 formally lay out your point of=20 view.

Regards,

Eliot
With classic DV-complying  BGP you receive reachability informat= ion=20 from some router precisely then when that router allows you to=20 use him for transit. Otherwise he won't give you that=20 information. Hence this sort of policy is  implemented =20 implicitly.
With LISP+ALT you have to pull the needed ETR information= from=20 some ALT-entity and I can hardly imagine neither that the  reque= sted=20 RLOC information is stored there, combined with who is and who is=20 not allowed to get it. 
 
I was told several times that I would not understand the internet=20 economics, because TARA would use Dijkstra to determine the best next hop= (based=20 on some combined map of several and different zooms). I could only de= fend=20 TARA by saying, well then any restriction "who is allowed to use which lin= k"=20 needs to be communicated somehow explicitly.
 
But obviously LISP is in no better shape. Just the opposite. I think,= that=20 LISP is even in a worse shape wrt this restriction issue.
 
And this is not the only issue: see the horrible overlapping EID disc= ussion=20 - especially as there is no need at all to propagate any single= =20 prefix.
 
Heiner
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--part1_f821.4c33799.387cf7c1_boundary-- From lear@cisco.com Mon Jan 11 14:17:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACF03A6853 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:17:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XwR8nbTjsUvi for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B593A67F5 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:17:00 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArAAALIxS0uQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACDXo9ziAUBARYkBqZahwCNFIErgi5WBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,258,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="2339500" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2010 21:48:08 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4932.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4932.cisco.com [10.61.83.67]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0BMGuOp023250; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:16:57 GMT Message-ID: <4B4BA358.8030008@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:16:56 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: heinerhummel@aol.com References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] internet economics X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:17:01 -0000 Heiner, I guess I'm not clear on what you mean. Do you mean that we should restrict access to a network or restrict access to a mapping? All the existing tools continue to exist. You can filter packets based on IP address or whatever you filter on today. This holds for ITRs, ETRs, or any other R. And so I don't understand the problem. Eliot From m.hallgren@free.fr Mon Jan 11 14:52:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333003A68BC for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:52:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5m-xlhc4sqm for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [212.27.42.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247D13A6803 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AF84C80AF; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:52:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (cvl92-2-82-228-145-40.fbx.proxad.net [82.228.145.40]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1327E4C80E7; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:51:59 +0100 (CET) From: Michael Hallgren To: heinerhummel@aol.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-MkD6wUr0/UVVYnZYsrNj" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:51:58 +0100 Message-ID: <1263250318.5420.23.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] internet economics X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:52:11 -0000 --=-MkD6wUr0/UVVYnZYsrNj Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le lundi 11 janvier 2010 =C3=A0 16:53 -0500, heinerhummel@aol.com a =C3=A9c= rit : > In einer eMail vom 11.01.2010 19:43:35 Westeurop=C3=A4ische Normalzeit > schreibt lear@cisco.com: > While your subject line piques my interest, there is not > enough context either in the original message you are quoting > or in your responding text below for me to understand what you > are claiming. I would suggest that you more formally lay out > your point of view. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Eliot >=20 > With classic DV-complying BGP you receive reachability information > from some router precisely then when that router allows you to > use him for transit. Otherwise he won't give you that > information. Hence this sort of policy is implemented implicitly. > With LISP+ALT you have to pull the needed ETR information from some > ALT-entity and I can hardly imagine neither that the requested RLOC > information is stored there, combined with who is and who is not > allowed to get it.=20 What type of "restriction to access" are we talking about here? What type of such features do we feel the need to incorporate at this network layer? mh > =20 > I was told several times that I would not understand the internet > economics, because TARA would use Dijkstra to determine the best next > hop (based on some combined map of several and different zooms). I > could only defend TARA by saying, well then any restriction "who is > allowed to use which link" needs to be communicated somehow > explicitly.=20 > =20 > But obviously LISP is in no better shape. Just the opposite. I think, > that LISP is even in a worse shape wrt this restriction issue.=20 > =20 > And this is not the only issue: see the horrible overlapping EID > discussion - especially as there is no need at all to propagate > any single prefix.=20 > =20 > Heiner > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg --=-MkD6wUr0/UVVYnZYsrNj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAktLq4YACgkQZNZ/rrgsqadP1wCcDAaxATANtaNUSeQDGUszyrP1 HEgAn2lmf6gV2JoOxpsdS/SSISp/9WJ1 =AVI7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-MkD6wUr0/UVVYnZYsrNj-- From HeinerHummel@aol.com Mon Jan 11 15:54:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DB33A68CC for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.651, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u3RgW3zRcQf1 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com (imr-db02.mx.aol.com [205.188.91.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAFB3A6896 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0BNsFA4001863; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:54:15 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id c.c8c.56019917 (55726); Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-dc03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-dc03.mx.aol.com [205.188.170.3]) by cia-md03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD031-d39f4b4bba10166; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:54:11 -0500 Received: from magic-m08.mail.aol.com (magic-m08.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.4]) by smtprly-dc03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDC031-d39f4b4bba10166; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:53:52 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <1287d.4f443c3a.387d1410@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:53:52 EST To: lear@cisco.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1287d.4f443c3a.387d1410_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.20.29.4 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] internet economics X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:54:46 -0000 --part1_1287d.4f443c3a.387d1410_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In einer eMail vom 11.01.2010 23:17:14 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 lear@cisco.com: Heiner, I guess I'm not clear on what you mean. Do you mean that we should restrict access to a network or restrict access to a mapping? All the existing tools continue to exist. You can filter packets based on IP address or whatever you filter on today. This holds for ITRs, ETRs, or any other R. And so I don't understand the problem. Eliot Eliot, =20 I think, meanwhile, I have found out the solution to the problem myself. =20 ISP B doesn't want to be transit for flows from ISP A to some host insid= e=20 ISP C. The router inside ISP A will request some ALT-server for the mapping =20 between that host's prefix and the respective ETR-RLOC. He will definitely= get =20 that mapping information (no filtering). However, if ISP B does not forwar= d=20 to ISP A that he has reachability to this ETR-RLOC (e.g.for whichever=20 business reasons) then ISP B cannot be used for transit. =20 Because I didn't see this (as of last sentence) I imagined that a truly = =20 weird filtering were to be installed who is and who is not allowed to rece= ive =20 the EID-to-RLOC mapping info. =20 Sorry, Heiner =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 --part1_1287d.4f443c3a.387d1410_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 11.01.2010 23:17:14 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 lear@cisco.com:
Heiner,

I guess I'm not clear on= what you mean.  Do you=20 mean that we should
restrict access to a network or restrict access= to a=20 mapping?  All the
existing tools continue to exist.  You ca= n=20 filter packets based on IP
address or whatever you filter on today.&n= bsp;=20 This holds for ITRs, ETRs, or
any other R.  And so I don't under= stand=20 the problem.

Eliot
Eliot,
 
I think, meanwhile, I have found out the solution to the problem=20 myself.
 
 ISP B doesn't want to be transit for flows from ISP A to some= host=20 inside ISP C.
The router inside ISP A will request some ALT-server for the mapping= =20 between that host's prefix and the respective ETR-RLOC. He will definitely= get=20 that mapping information (no filtering). However, if ISP B does not forwar= d to=20 ISP A that he has reachability to this ETR-RLOC (e.g.for whichever busines= s=20 reasons) then  ISP B cannot be used for transit.
 
Because I didn't see this (as of last sentence) I imagined that a tru= ly=20 weird filtering were to be installed who is and who is not allowed to rece= ive=20 the EID-to-RLOC mapping info.
 
Sorry,
Heiner
 
 
 
 
 
 
--part1_1287d.4f443c3a.387d1410_boundary-- From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Tue Jan 12 10:09:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9733E3A6851 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.744 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.744 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.856, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uSKLdqmRHvu8 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E443A687A for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E22B39E80DF for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FK1fjo2NspTj for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from Cs-32-34.CS.UCLA.EDU (Cs-32-34.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.32.34]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8CEA39E80B1 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <4B366696.4060408@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:09:45 -0800 References: <4B351345.7080908@gmail.com> <000901ca85c9$a077b1c0$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <4B36654A.4040903@gmail.com> <4B366696.4060408@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs: a summary attempt X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:09:52 -0000 sorry folks for a long absence on this list. Now that family emergency is over I'm catching up here by going through the archive by subject line. under "Aggregatable EIDs" people brought up several issues, mainly (as I see): 1/ whether EIDs are allocated in some "hierarchy" way 2/ whether EIDs are used for lookups 3/ whether geo-location information can be part of IP address and used for routing purpose. I will send a separate msg for the 3rd issue. Joel made a great comment regarding the first two issues: > Two points of clarification: > 1) EIDs need to be aggregatable only if they are used as look up > keys. If they are never the key for a lookup (and some proposals > have that property) then aggregatability is a non-issue. > 2) The corollary to 1 is that EIDs only need to be aggregatable in > the structure in which they are looked up. If they are looked up in > the routing system, then they need to be topological. If they are > looked up in something else, then they need to right structure for > that something else. If the EID is a DNS name, then the DNS > structure defines its aggregatability. If it is looked up in a > binary delegation tree, then that defines the structure. If they > are looked up in a DHT, and we are prepared to mandate a DHT, then > again they don't need aggregation properties. > 2') It is very likely that EIDs will have at least delegation > oriented aggregation, unless we resort to random EID creation. and to that last point, Tony also added that, "At the very least, ANY large name space needs to be managed, and that management needs to be hierarchical to scale." My summary after seeing all the exchanges: - Yes any large name space needs to be managed, and management means hierarchical structure at certain scope. - Exact how loose/tight the scope may be depends on the intended use. e.g. the US's SSN (social security number) system could be an example of a rather loose hierarchy. If I guessed right: it assigns big chunk of numbers to each state->county, and people move freely no matter whether they got their SSN. But it does not need real time lookup (e.g. within sub-second), as we do. Maybe ILNP would fit a similarly loose EID management? As ILNP uses DNS, not EID for realtime look. - It seems to me that most posts implied that this "EID" would be used for lookup, even though it is not explicitly stated each time. from Xiaohu's many posts: there is a management issue associated with this mapping/lookup services, including concerns about (1) cost for running the service, who runs and who pays; (2) quality control for the service, who cares and how much control he gets, and (3) the critical dependancy of network service on this lookup. My understanding for his push for a hierarchical EID is to have identified, authorized, responsible parties to provide this critical lookup service with high performance and efficiency. - So as one sees from my above reasoning, the need for a hierarchical EID system is dependent on individual solution proposals. It is not a general requirement. It is up to how EID is used in a solution. Lixia From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Tue Jan 12 10:39:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D49C3A683B for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.428, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ufQv9iFHEOwv for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656ED3A6817 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB1139E80DF for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfZnLba8XZlO for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from Cs-32-34.CS.UCLA.EDU (Cs-32-34.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.32.34]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D38E39E80B1 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <4B382953.60608@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0800 References: <000f01ca875b$8d8c8250$740c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <4B382953.60608@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:39:05 -0000 On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > On 2009-12-28 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote: > ... >>> This argument fails for exactly the same reason that geographically >>> based BGP aggregation fails. >> >> Brian, who has ever done it ? > > Nobody, as far as I know. > >> Why do you say this and what do you mean by saying this ? > > There have been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over > the years. Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr. > As far as I know, none of them has ever been deployed, because > this isn't how Internet economics works. There is no financial > incentive to deploy geographically based exchange points which also > act as address delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical > argument against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of it.) the above comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo- based addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally aware (I wish I were one of you people:). So here are a few pointers to related material. The concept was a rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal back in early 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe a long tech report is still on the web). In the early days of IPv6 design, Steve Deering gave a strong pushing in this direction. The best ref is probably his plenary talk at July 1995 IETF meeting: "Metro-Based Addressing", ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/presentations/allocation/deering.slides.ps This proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly (though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-hain- ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that has been articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model does not match the ISP economics. However as it happens to any debate, opinions often swing further than proper. From time to time one hears the interpretation from that debate as "geo info cannot be used in routing" which is not the case. What that debate taught us (at least me) is that, for routing decisions, ISP info must take the high order bit. However after that high order bit is taken into account, geo info can be very useful to further optimize the routing decisions. as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data from Rotueviews and RIPE for a measurement study, the result is reported in a paper a few years back: "Geographically Informed Inter-Domain Routing" http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf or if you just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation slides: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt Lixia From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Tue Jan 12 10:53:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF73E3A6A61 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.314 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.314 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HSeive2c5EK for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37B33A67E7 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4F839E80E1 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6EDavBzNynP for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from Cs-32-34.CS.UCLA.EDU (Cs-32-34.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.32.34]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 591B239E80B1 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <523673BD-56FA-4D03-97C8-636A8BC786D2@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:53:46 -0800 References: <4B351345.7080908@gmail.com> <000901ca85c9$a077b1c0$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <4B36654A.4040903@gmail.com> <4B366696.4060408@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs: a couple other bits X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:53:49 -0000 after summarizing the main points, I'd also like to clarify the following I caught from this thread of exchange: > there are about 10 times fewer active AS numbers than there are active > prefixes. So flat-routing on AS numbers would gain one order of > magnitude > immediately. I've seen similar statement several times by now. I suppose people understand that routing on AS numbers *alone* is not a feasible solution. ASes come in all size and colors. Some AS could be a small company; some other AS can cross multiple continents. So AS does not represent a granularity suited for today's routing needs. Routing on ASes can get one reachability, but not performance, load balance, traffic engineering etc etc. (Had we only cared reachability, I bet the DFZ table would not have grown so big) > ...... > Well, until people drop the stupidity of reverse DNS lookup as a > "security check" it's very hard to drop this. Of course it's bogus. I agree that different opinions exist regarding the use of reverse DNS lookup, the degree of its effectiveness etc. But it is undeniable that it has been a useful checking in many cases. And we should not overlook its merit: it got adopted quickly and widely because it made use of an existing function. Lixia From jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 12 13:33:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C6C3A6895 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6GLbfvhFYAF for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.lcs.mit.edu (mercury.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F1E3A6838 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 11178) id 15CE26BE597; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) To: rrg@irtf.org Message-Id: <20100112213304.15CE26BE597@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:33:03 -0500 (EST) From: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Cc: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:33:08 -0000 > From: Lixia Zhang > This proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not > fly ... mainly due to the reason that has been articulated in this > thread of exchanges: the model does not match the ISP economics. To expand on this a tiny bit, let me give it to you as Yakov concisely put it to me: In routing (i.e. path selection), for the overhead of routing to scale 'reasonably' in large networks, either the 'addressing' (i.e. the names used by path selection) has to follow the topology, or the topology has to follow the addressing; i.e. there has to be a certain level of congruence between the two. (And by 'topology' I mean actual network connectivity - we're mis-using the term 'topology', but it's probably too late to fix that now, although if someone has a better alternative term, I will cheerfully switch to using it... :-) Unfortunately for geo-addressing, for economic reasons, topology usually follows traffic patterns (i.e. you lay/light-up fiber to match traffic flows), and traffic patterns follow relationships in the real world (e.g. between customers and their suppliers/providers). So driving the topology from the addressing end is not possible. Instead, the only way that works is relationships -> traffic patterns -> topology -> addressing. Noel From HeinerHummel@aol.com Tue Jan 12 14:25:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB293A686A for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sHrq3YlDg8pX for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (imr-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.206.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D92193A683F for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0CMPB18010921; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:25:11 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.cb7.6416d005 (34921); Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-dc03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-dc03.mx.aol.com [205.188.170.3]) by cia-da03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADA036-d3a34b4cf6baff; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:25:05 -0500 Received: from magic-m01.mail.aol.com (magic-m01.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.72]) by smtprly-dc03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDC033-d3a34b4cf6baff; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:24:58 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <13149.23b666b.387e50ba@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:24:58 EST To: lixia@cs.ucla.edu, rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13149.23b666b.387e50ba_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.72 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:25:29 -0000 --part1_13149.23b666b.387e50ba_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Lixia, Once more: My geolocation-based TARA concept is FUNDAMENTALLY different= =20 from all three proposals you are mentioning (Steve Deering's Metro-based.= ..,=20 Hain-draft, Giro). If I had no better computational tools at hand than=20 Deering, Hain or the UCLA group, I would either be absolutely silent = =20 - or in the ILNP camp:-) =20 Lixia, I know, you have a lot of ideas, how to make prefix-handling more= =20 sophisticated. My point however is: Get rid of any (Unicast) prefix building. TARA is= =20 about providing a well-skimmed topological view of the internet (which =20 prevents table size problems as well as update churn). As opposed to all= =20 submitted proposals, TARA is the only one which can provide a perfect =20 visualization: Use Google to search for a route from NY, Time Square, to= S.F, Lambert=20 Street - and play with the different zooms !!! =20 Heiner =20 =20 In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:39:25 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 lixia@cs.ucla.edu: On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > On 2009-12-28 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote: > ... >>> This argument fails for exactly the same reason that geographically >>> based BGP aggregation fails. >> >> Brian, who has ever done it ? > > Nobody, as far as I know. > >> Why do you say this and what do you mean by saying this ? > > There have been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over > the years. Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr. > As far as I know, none of them has ever been deployed, because > this isn't how Internet economics works. There is no financial > incentive to deploy geographically based exchange points which also > act as address delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical > argument against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of it.) the above comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo-=20 based addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally aware =20 (I wish I were one of you people:). So here are a few pointers to =20 related material. The concept was a rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal =20 back in early 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe =20 a long tech report is still on the web). In the early days of IPv6 design, Steve Deering gave a strong pushing =20 in this direction. The best ref is probably his plenary talk at July =20 1995 IETF meeting: "Metro-Based Addressing", ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/presentations/allocation/= de ering.slides.ps This proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly = =20 (though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-hain- =20 ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that has been = =20 articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model does not match the =20 ISP economics. However as it happens to any debate, opinions often swing further than = =20 proper. From time to time one hears the interpretation from that =20 debate as "geo info cannot be used in routing" which is not the case. What that debate taught us (at least me) is that, for routing =20 decisions, ISP info must take the high order bit. However after that high order bit is taken into account, geo info can =20 be very useful to further optimize the routing decisions. as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data from Rotueviews and RIPE =20 for a measurement study, the result is reported in a paper a few years = =20 back: "Geographically Informed Inter-Domain Routing" http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf or if you just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation = =20 slides: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt Lixia _______________________________________________ rrg mailing list rrg@irtf.org http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg --part1_13149.23b666b.387e50ba_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
Lixia,
Once more: My geolocation-based TARA concept is FUNDAMENTALLY=20 different from all three proposals you are mentioning (Steve Deering'= s=20 Metro-based..., Hain-draft, Giro). If I had no better computational=20 tools at hand than Deering, Hain or the UCLA group, I=20 would either be absolutely=20 silent          - or in the= ILNP=20 camp:-)
 
Lixia, I know, you have a lot of ideas, how to make prefix-handling= more=20 sophisticated.
My point however  is: Get rid of any (Unicast) prefix building.= TARA=20 is about providing a well-skimmed topological view of the internet (which= =20 prevents table size problems as well as update churn). As opposed to all= =20 submitted proposals, TARA is the only one which can provide a perfect=20 visualization: Use Google to search for a route from NY, Time Square, to= S.F,=20 Lambert Street - and play with the different zooms !!!
 
Heiner
 
 
In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:39:25 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 lixia@cs.ucla.edu:
On Dec=20 27, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi,
>>=20 On 2009-12-28 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote:
> ...
>>> This= =20 argument fails for exactly the same reason that geographically
>&g= t;>=20 based BGP aggregation fails.
>>
>> Brian, who has ever= done=20 it ?
>
> Nobody, as far as I know.
>
>> Why= do you=20 say this and what do you mean by saying this ?
>
> There hav= e been=20 a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over
> the years. Most= =20 recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr.
> As far as I know, none of th= em has=20 ever been deployed, because
> this isn't how Internet economics wo= rks.=20 There is no financial
> incentive to deploy geographically based= =20 exchange points which also
> act as address delegators to customer= s.=20 (Note, there is no technical
> argument against it. But nobody kno= ws how=20 to make money out of it.)

the above comment seems alluding to the= long=20 historical debate in geo-
based addressing, that the young folks her= e may=20 not be totally aware 
(I wish I were one of you people:). = So=20 here are a few pointers to 
related material.

The concep= t was=20 a rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal 
back in= early=20 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe 
a long= tech=20 report is still on the web).

In the early days of IPv6 design, St= eve=20 Deering gave a strong pushing 
in this direction.  The bes= t ref=20 is probably his plenary talk at July 
1995 IETF=20 meeting:
"Metro-Based=20 Addressing",
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/present= ations/allocation/deering.slides.ps

This=20 proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly = =20
(though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-hain-= =20
ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that has=20 been 
articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model does= not=20 match the 
ISP economics.

However as it happens to any= debate,=20 opinions often swing further than 
proper. From time to time on= e=20 hears the interpretation from that 
debate as "geo info cannot= be=20 used in routing" which is not the case.
What that debate taught us (a= t=20 least me) is that, for routing 
decisions, ISP info must take= the=20 high order bit.
However after that high order bit is taken into accou= nt,=20 geo info can 
be very useful to further optimize the routing=20 decisions.
as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data from Rotuevie= ws and=20 RIPE 
for a measurement study, the result is reported in a pape= r a=20 few years 
back:
"Geographically Informed Inter-Domain=20 Routing"
http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf
or if you= just=20 want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation =20
slides:
http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt
Lixia

_______________________________________________
rrg= =20 mailing=20 list
rrg@irtf.org
http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg
 
 --part1_13149.23b666b.387e50ba_boundary-- From HeinerHummel@aol.com Tue Jan 12 14:40:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DFB03A682A for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CwENAHRwIChN for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com (imr-db02.mx.aol.com [205.188.91.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BE03A67A5 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0CMe0Lw031287; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:40:00 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.c77.5a5a05dc (43831); Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-db01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-db01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.152]) by cia-dc02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADC024-5bc94b4cfa2e22b; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:39:52 -0500 Received: from magic-m01.mail.aol.com (magic-m01.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.72]) by smtprly-db01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDB018-5bc94b4cfa2e22b; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:39:43 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <138c8.6fd3b8b8.387e542e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:39:42 EST To: lixia@cs.ucla.edu, rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_138c8.6fd3b8b8.387e542e_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.72 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs: a couple other bits X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:40:19 -0000 --part1_138c8.6fd3b8b8.387e542e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:53:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 lixia@cs.ucla.edu: after summarizing the main points, I'd also like to clarify the =20 following I caught from this thread of exchange: > there are about 10 times fewer active AS numbers than there are active > prefixes. So flat-routing on AS numbers would gain one order of =20 > magnitude > immediately. I've seen similar statement several times by now. I suppose people =20 understand that routing on AS numbers *alone* is not a feasible =20 solution. ASes come in all size and colors. Some AS could be a small company; =20 some other AS can cross multiple continents. So AS does not represent = =20 a granularity suited for today's routing needs.=20 =20 Routing on ASes can =20 get one reachability, but not performance, load balance, traffic =20 engineering etc etc. Right. By "no performance" I think you mean the bad stretch factor emphasized= by=20 Krioukov, applying to hierarchical routing concepts other than TARA, Traffic engineering: Indeed, only TARA provides a rearview mirror =20 (enabling a communication between a congested node and just those who woul= d use it=20 for transit)=20 Moore's Law (only TARA would enable its applicability to IP forwarding). Mobility: TARA would help MIP4 enourmously and by the same token would do= =20 more for HIP than the HIP-origin RFC about rendex-vous server. =20 Heiner =20 PS: If I knew as much about the internet as you do, Lixia, I would =20 certainly detect many more advantages of TARA :-) --part1_138c8.6fd3b8b8.387e542e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:53:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 lixia@cs.ucla.edu:
after=20 summarizing the main points, I'd also like to clarify the 
foll= owing=20 I caught from this thread of exchange:

> there are about 10 ti= mes=20 fewer active AS numbers than there are active
> prefixes. So=20 flat-routing on AS numbers would gain one order of 
>=20 magnitude
> immediately.

I've seen similar statement severa= l=20 times by now.  I suppose people 
understand that routing= on AS=20 numbers *alone* is not a feasible 
solution.
ASes come in al= l size=20 and colors.  Some AS could be a small company; 
some other= AS=20 can cross multiple continents.  So AS does not represent 
= a=20 granularity suited for today's routing needs.
 
Routing=20 on ASes can 
get one reachability, but not performance, load ba= lance,=20 traffic 
engineering etc etc.
Right.
By "no performance" I think you  mean the bad stretch factor=20 emphasized by Krioukov, applying to hierarchical routing concepts other th= an=20 TARA,
Traffic engineering: Indeed, only TARA provides a rearview mirro= r=20 (enabling a communication between a congested node and just those who woul= d use=20 it for transit) 
Moore's Law (only TARA would enable its applicability to IP=20 forwarding).
Mobility: TARA would help MIP4 enourmously and by the same token woul= d do=20 more for HIP than the HIP-origin RFC about rendex-vous server.
 
Heiner
 
PS: If I knew as much about the internet as you do, Lixia, I would=20 certainly detect many more advantages of TARA :-)
--part1_138c8.6fd3b8b8.387e542e_boundary-- From darlewis@cisco.com Tue Jan 12 14:40:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D873A68C2 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pSe7Se0ob-9V for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B0C3A6878 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:34 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aq8EANKITEurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACCFI1LsiaJDwiLXYI/CIFpBI06 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,264,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="287534237" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2010 22:40:32 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o0CMeWfI015316; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:40:32 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-213.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.153]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:32 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA93D8.3D5FC2A0" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:40:28 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <13149.23b666b.387e50ba@aol.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs Thread-Index: AcqT1ijobxY9L/uSSLuGdsdTTz8P9gAAdtBA References: <13149.23b666b.387e50ba@aol.com> From: "Darrel Lewis (darlewis)" To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2010 22:40:32.0444 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FB3AFC0:01CA93D8] Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:40:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA93D8.3D5FC2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are routers inside a given geo-patch required to interconnect? That is, = will a packet which is delivered to any given router inside a geopatch = be guaranteed to be delivered to some other router in the same geopatch? =20 I believed Tony asked this question a few times, I've yet to see a clear = answer. =20 -Darrel ________________________________ From: rrg-bounces@irtf.org [mailto:rrg-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = heinerhummel@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:25 PM To: lixia@cs.ucla.edu; rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs =09 =09 =09 Lixia, Once more: My geolocation-based TARA concept is FUNDAMENTALLY different = from all three proposals you are mentioning (Steve Deering's = Metro-based..., Hain-draft, Giro). If I had no better computational = tools at hand than Deering, Hain or the UCLA group, I would either be = absolutely silent - or in the ILNP camp:-) =20 Lixia, I know, you have a lot of ideas, how to make prefix-handling = more sophisticated. My point however is: Get rid of any (Unicast) prefix building. TARA is = about providing a well-skimmed topological view of the internet (which = prevents table size problems as well as update churn). As opposed to all = submitted proposals, TARA is the only one which can provide a perfect = visualization: Use Google to search for a route from NY, Time Square, to = S.F, Lambert Street - and play with the different zooms !!! =20 Heiner =20 =20 In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:39:25 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit = schreibt lixia@cs.ucla.edu: On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: =09 > Hi, > > On 2009-12-28 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote: > ... >>> This argument fails for exactly the same reason that = geographically >>> based BGP aggregation fails. >> >> Brian, who has ever done it ? > > Nobody, as far as I know. > >> Why do you say this and what do you mean by saying this ? > > There have been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over > the years. Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr. > As far as I know, none of them has ever been deployed, because > this isn't how Internet economics works. There is no financial > incentive to deploy geographically based exchange points which also > act as address delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical > argument against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of it.) =09 the above comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo- = based addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally aware =20 (I wish I were one of you people:). So here are a few pointers to =20 related material. =09 The concept was a rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal = back in early 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe = a long tech report is still on the web). =09 In the early days of IPv6 design, Steve Deering gave a strong pushing = in this direction. The best ref is probably his plenary talk at July = 1995 IETF meeting: "Metro-Based Addressing", = ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/presentations/allocation= /deering.slides.ps =09 This proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly = (though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-hain-=20 ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that has been = =20 articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model does not match the = ISP economics. =09 However as it happens to any debate, opinions often swing further than = =20 proper. From time to time one hears the interpretation from that =20 debate as "geo info cannot be used in routing" which is not the case. What that debate taught us (at least me) is that, for routing =20 decisions, ISP info must take the high order bit. However after that high order bit is taken into account, geo info can = be very useful to further optimize the routing decisions. as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data from Rotueviews and RIPE = for a measurement study, the result is reported in a paper a few years = =20 back: "Geographically Informed Inter-Domain Routing" http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf or if you just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation = =20 slides: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt =09 Lixia =09 _______________________________________________ rrg mailing list rrg@irtf.org http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg =09 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA93D8.3D5FC2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Are routers = inside a=20 given geo-patch required to interconnect?  That is, will a packet = which is=20 delivered to any given router inside a geopatch be guaranteed to be = delivered to=20 some other router in the same geopatch?
 
I believed = Tony asked=20 this question a few times, I've yet to see a clear answer.
 
-Darrel

From: rrg-bounces@irtf.org=20 [mailto:rrg-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of=20 heinerhummel@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 = 2:25=20 PM
To: lixia@cs.ucla.edu; rrg@irtf.org
Subject: = Re: [rrg]=20 Aggregatable EIDs

Lixia,
Once more: My geolocation-based TARA concept = is FUNDAMENTALLY=20 different from all three proposals you are mentioning (Steve = Deering's=20 Metro-based..., Hain-draft, Giro). If I had no better computational=20 tools at hand than Deering, Hain or the UCLA group, I=20 would either be absolutely=20 silent          - or in = the ILNP=20 camp:-)
 
Lixia, I know, you have a lot of ideas, how to make = prefix-handling more=20 sophisticated.
My point however  is: Get rid of any (Unicast) prefix = building. TARA=20 is about providing a well-skimmed topological view of the internet = (which=20 prevents table size problems as well as update churn). As opposed to = all=20 submitted proposals, TARA is the only one which can provide a perfect=20 visualization: Use Google to search for a route from NY, Time Square, = to S.F,=20 Lambert Street - and play with the different zooms !!!
 
Heiner
 
 
In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:39:25 Westeurop=E4ische = Normalzeit=20 schreibt lixia@cs.ucla.edu:
On Dec 27, = 2009, at 7:43=20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On = 2009-12-28=20 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote:
> ...
>>> This argument = fails for=20 exactly the same reason that geographically
>>> based = BGP=20 aggregation fails.
>>
>> Brian, who has ever done = it=20 ?
>
> Nobody, as far as I know.
>
>> Why = do you=20 say this and what do you mean by saying this ?
>
> There = have=20 been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over
> the = years.=20 Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr.
> As far as I know, = none of=20 them has ever been deployed, because
> this isn't how Internet = economics works. There is no financial
> incentive to deploy=20 geographically based exchange points which also
> act as = address=20 delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical
> = argument=20 against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of = it.)

the above=20 comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo- =
based=20 addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally aware  =
(I=20 wish I were one of you people:).  So here are a few pointers = to =20
related material.

The concept was a rather old one, Greg = Finn had=20 some related proposal 
back in early 80s (I didn't bother = to hunt=20 down the URL but I believe 
a long tech report is still on = the=20 web).

In the early days of IPv6 design, Steve Deering gave a = strong=20 pushing 
in this direction.  The best ref is probably = his=20 plenary talk at July 
1995 IETF meeting:
"Metro-Based=20 = Addressing",
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/presenta= tions/allocation/deering.slides.ps

This=20 proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not = fly =20
(though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the = draft-hain-=20
ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that = has=20 been 
articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model = does not=20 match the 
ISP economics.

However as it happens to = any=20 debate, opinions often swing further than 
proper. From = time to=20 time one hears the interpretation from that 
debate as "geo = info=20 cannot be used in routing" which is not the case.
What that = debate taught=20 us (at least me) is that, for routing 
decisions, ISP info = must=20 take the high order bit.
However after that high order bit is = taken into=20 account, geo info can 
be very useful to further optimize = the=20 routing decisions.
as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data = from=20 Rotueviews and RIPE 
for a measurement study, the result is = reported in a paper a few years 
back:
"Geographically = Informed=20 Inter-Domain=20 Routing"
http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf
or if = you=20 just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation =20 =
slides:
http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt
=
Lixia

_______________________________________________
rrg=20 mailing=20 = list
rrg@irtf.org
http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg
 
 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA93D8.3D5FC2A0-- From HeinerHummel@aol.com Tue Jan 12 15:08:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295083A67F3 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.666, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YAUqLlO15+O4 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-da01.mx.aol.com (imr-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.105.143]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4560E3A6877 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-da01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0CN8ARj027997; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:08:10 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.cf5.67b0d5bd (37167); Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.103]) by cia-ma04.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA046-b2b74b4d00d3ce; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:08:05 -0500 Received: from magic-m01.mail.aol.com (magic-m01.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.72]) by smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME021-b2b74b4d00d3ce; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:08:03 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <145ca.6392b7c8.387e5ad3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:08:03 EST To: darlewis@cisco.com, lixia@cs.ucla.edu, rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_145ca.6392b7c8.387e5ad3_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.72 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:08:46 -0000 --part1_145ca.6392b7c8.387e5ad3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Darrel, your question is about "partitioning" and is very important. Although that= =20 should be interconnectivity inside a geopatch should be the normal case,= =20 it may happen that there are multiple parts which are not interconnected= by=20 intra-geopatch links. The concept must provide 2 things: 1) The capability to recognize that =20 there are partitions, 2) extensions to the concept which handle them. a)= by =20 making sure to get to the right part (if possible). b) by enabling detour= s from inside via neighboring geopatches to the other inside part. Note, =20 there could be a strict link from the other half of the globe into one of= =20 several partitions of some geopatch. =20 Though it is important, it is yet just one detail. There is more: The =20 commonly acquired maps which consisted of differently zoomed/skimmed part= s of=20 the surrounding internet might be enhanced by some set of intra-domain =20 TARA-links (e.g. of a global operating ISP !). =20 We all shouldn't mind facing new challenges.=20 =20 Heiner PS: Good luck to LISP. But isn't one jack-up solution enough to be pursued= =20 ? =20 =20 =20 =20 In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 23:40:34 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 darlewis@cisco.com: Are routers inside a given geo-patch required to interconnect? That is,= =20 will a packet which is delivered to any given router inside a geopatch be= =20 guaranteed to be delivered to some other router in the same geopatch? =20 I believed Tony asked this question a few times, I've yet to see a clear= =20 answer. =20 -Darrel =20 ____________________________________ From: rrg-bounces@irtf.org [mailto:rrg-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = =20 heinerhummel@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:25 PM To: lixia@cs.ucla.edu; rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs Lixia, Once more: My geolocation-based TARA concept is FUNDAMENTALLY different= =20 from all three proposals you are mentioning (Steve Deering's Metro-based.= ..,=20 Hain-draft, Giro). If I had no better computational tools at hand than=20 Deering, Hain or the UCLA group, I would either be absolutely silent = =20 - or in the ILNP camp:-) =20 Lixia, I know, you have a lot of ideas, how to make prefix-handling more= =20 sophisticated. My point however is: Get rid of any (Unicast) prefix building. TARA is= =20 about providing a well-skimmed topological view of the internet (which=20 prevents table size problems as well as update churn). As opposed to all= =20 submitted proposals, TARA is the only one which can provide a perfect =20 visualization: Use Google to search for a route from NY, Time Square, to= S.F, Lambert=20 Street - and play with the different zooms !!! =20 Heiner =20 =20 In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:39:25 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schre= ibt=20 lixia@cs.ucla.edu: On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > On 2009-12-28 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote: > ... >>> This argument fails for exactly the same reason that geographically >>> based BGP aggregation fails. >> >> Brian, who has ever done it ? > > Nobody, as far as I know. > >> Why do you say this and what do you mean by saying this ? > > There have been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over > the years. Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr. > As far as I know, none of them has ever been deployed, because > this isn't how Internet economics works. There is no financial > incentive to deploy geographically based exchange points which also > act as address delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical > argument against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of it.) the above comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo- = =20 based addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally aware =20 (I wish I were one of you people:). So here are a few pointers to =20 related material. The concept was a rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal =20 back in early 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe =20 a long tech report is still on the web). In the early days of IPv6 design, Steve Deering gave a strong pushing =20 in this direction. The best ref is probably his plenary talk at July = =20 1995 IETF meeting: "Metro-Based Addressing", ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/presentations/allocation/= de ering.slides.ps This proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly = =20 (though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-hain- =20 ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that has been = =20 articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model does not match the =20 ISP economics. However as it happens to any debate, opinions often swing further than = =20 proper. From time to time one hears the interpretation from that =20 debate as "geo info cannot be used in routing" which is not the case. What that debate taught us (at least me) is that, for routing =20 decisions, ISP info must take the high order bit. However after that high order bit is taken into account, geo info can =20 be very useful to further optimize the routing decisions. as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data from Rotueviews and RIPE =20 for a measurement study, the result is reported in a paper a few years = =20 back: "Geographically Informed Inter-Domain Routing" http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf or if you just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation = =20 slides: http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt Lixia _______________________________________________ rrg mailing list rrg@irtf.org http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg --part1_145ca.6392b7c8.387e5ad3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
Darrel,
your question is about "partitioning" and is very important. Although= that=20 should be interconnectivity inside a geopatch should be the normal case,= =20 it may happen that there are multiple parts which are not=20 interconnected by intra-geopatch links.
The concept must provide 2 things: 1) The capability to recognize tha= t=20 there are partitions, 2) extensions to the concept which handle them.= a) by=20 making sure to get to the right part (if possible). b) by enabling=20 detours
from inside via neighboring geopatches to the other inside part. Note= ,=20 there could be a strict link from the other half of the globe into one of= =20 several partitions of some geopatch.
 
Though it is important, it is yet just one detail. There is more: The= =20 commonly acquired maps which consisted of differently zoomed/ski= mmed=20 parts of the surrounding internet might be enhanced by some set of intra-d= omain=20 TARA-links (e.g. of a global operating ISP !).
 
We all shouldn't mind facing new challenges.
 
Heiner
PS: Good luck to LISP. But isn't one jack-up solution enough to be pu= rsued=20 ?
 
 
 
 
In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 23:40:34 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 darlewis@cisco.com:
Are routers= inside a=20 given geo-patch required to interconnect?  That is, will a packet= which=20 is delivered to any given router inside a geopatch be guaranteed to be= =20 delivered to some other router in the same geopatch?
&nbs= p;
I believed= Tony asked=20 this question a few times, I've yet to see a clear answer.
&nbs= p;
-Darrel

From: rrg-bounces@irtf.org=20 [mailto:rrg-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of=20 heinerhummel@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:2= 5=20 PM
To: lixia@cs.ucla.edu; rrg@irtf.org
Subject: Re= :=20 [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs

Lixia,
Once more: My geolocation-based TARA concept is FUNDAMENTALL= Y=20 different from all three proposals you are mentioning (Steve Deer= ing's=20 Metro-based..., Hain-draft, Giro). If I had no better computational=20 tools at hand than Deering, Hain or the UCLA group, I=20 would either be absolutely=20 silent          - or in= the=20 ILNP camp:-)
 
Lixia, I know, you have a lot of ideas, how to make prefix-handli= ng=20 more sophisticated.
My point however  is: Get rid of any (Unicast) prefix buildi= ng.=20 TARA is about providing a well-skimmed topological view of the interne= t=20 (which prevents table size problems as well as update churn). As oppos= ed to=20 all submitted proposals, TARA is the only one which can provide a perf= ect=20 visualization: Use Google to search for a route from NY, Time Square,= to=20 S.F, Lambert Street - and play with the different zooms !!!
 
Heiner
 
 
In einer eMail vom 12.01.2010 19:39:25 Westeurop=E4ische Normalze= it=20 schreibt lixia@cs.ucla.edu:
On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:43=20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 2009= -12-28=20 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote:
> ...
>>> This argument fa= ils=20 for exactly the same reason that geographically
>>> base= d BGP=20 aggregation fails.
>>
>> Brian, who has ever done= it=20 ?
>
> Nobody, as far as I know.
>
>> Why= do you=20 say this and what do you mean by saying this ?
>
> There= have=20 been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over
> the ye= ars.=20 Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr.
> As far as I know,= none of=20 them has ever been deployed, because
> this isn't how Internet= =20 economics works. There is no financial
> incentive to deploy= =20 geographically based exchange points which also
> act as addre= ss=20 delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical
> argume= nt=20 against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of it.)

th= e=20 above comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo-= =20
based addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally= =20 aware 
(I wish I were one of you people:).  So here ar= e a=20 few pointers to 
related material.

The concept was= a=20 rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal 
back= in=20 early 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe =
a=20 long tech report is still on the web).

In the early days of= IPv6=20 design, Steve Deering gave a strong pushing 
in this=20 direction.  The best ref is probably his plenary talk at July&n= bsp;=20
1995 IETF meeting:
"Metro-Based=20 Addressing",
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/pre= sentations/allocation/deering.slides.ps

This=20 proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly&nbs= p;=20
(though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-ha= in-=20
ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that ha= s=20 been 
articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model do= es not=20 match the 
ISP economics.

However as it happens to= any=20 debate, opinions often swing further than 
proper. From tim= e to=20 time one hears the interpretation from that 
debate as "geo= info=20 cannot be used in routing" which is not the case.
What that debat= e=20 taught us (at least me) is that, for routing 
decisions, IS= P info=20 must take the high order bit.
However after that high order bit= is=20 taken into account, geo info can 
be very useful to further= =20 optimize the routing decisions.
as a simple evaluation, we used= the BGP=20 data from Rotueviews and RIPE 
for a measurement study, the= =20 result is reported in a paper a few years =20
back:
"Geographically Informed Inter-Domain=20 Routing"
http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf
or if= you=20 just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation = =20
slides:
http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.pp= t

Lixia

_______________________________________________
r= rg=20 mailing=20 list
rrg@irtf.org
http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg
=
 
 
--part1_145ca.6392b7c8.387e5ad3_boundary-- From christian.vogt@ericsson.com Tue Jan 12 23:12:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B061A3A69F0 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:12:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AsDXcBq7sBmn for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr1.ericy.com (imr1.ericy.com [198.24.6.9]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9533A68EC for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from eusaamw0712.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.181]) by imr1.ericy.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o0D7CQ9v012903 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:12:26 -0600 Received: from EUSAACMS0701.eamcs.ericsson.se ([169.254.1.164]) by eusaamw0712.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.181]) with mapi; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 02:12:13 -0500 From: Christian Vogt To: Routing Research Group Mailing List Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 02:11:58 -0500 Thread-Topic: Analysis of name-based sockets Thread-Index: AcqUH7rgBEvgIDZTTWqDmtoleZyTBQ== Message-ID: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:12:18 -0000 Dear all - Below please find an analysis of name-based sockets as an Internet =20 routing scalability solution: http://christianvogt.mailup.net/pub/vogt-2009-name-based-sockets-analysis.t= xt - Christian From tony.li@tony.li Wed Jan 13 06:17:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8693A69F2 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:17:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hVZXJKJrkCNR for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075303A6813 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.60]) by qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id V1vG1d0041HpZEsA82HdVL; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:17:37 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id V2Hc1d0073L8a8Q8a2Hc4U; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:17:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4B4DD5FF.2060608@tony.li> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:17:35 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:17:40 -0000 Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Below is a 500 word critique of ILNP that Yakov Rekhter and I have put > together. I appreciated the comments that other folks sent about ILNP. > I apologize for not being able to adequately capture all the concerns > that were expressed to me. This has been received and incorporated. Tony From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 13 06:20:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7AE43A6837 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.412, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 64eD8YbtmbIZ for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FAA3A681B for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2E2175A16; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 01:20:28 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4DD6A9.3050503@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 01:20:25 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Ivip architecture ID rewritten, 2 others updated X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:20:33 -0000 I have replaced the original Ivip-arch ID with a freshly written version 03. This is completely up-to-date and should be easy for RRG people to read without much head-scratching: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-arch-03 This is 2 or 3 hours reading - 25k words, 61 pages of material, not counting TOC, references etc. Please don't complain about it being long. We are deciding how to upgrade the world's biggest and most significant IT system. This is 40% shorter than the previous version. This ID gives a good account of all aspects of Ivip, with goals, non-goals and the architectural choices which lead to Ivip. This is for IPv4 and IPv6, with encapsulation and its PMTUD problems, and with alternatives to encapsulation. It also covers mobility. This is the sort of scope a scalable routing proposal should have. If you paid good money for one which doesn't go this far, I reckon you should be entitled to a refund! The TOC follows my signature. I have also updated the other two IDs - on the fast-push mapping distribution system and on the Modified Header Forwarding arrangement for replacing encapsulation in IPv4 (which requires a modest upgrade to DFZ router FIBs). http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-db-fast-push-02 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-whittle-ivip-etr-addr-forw-00 - Robin 1. Introduction 2. Goals IPv4 and IPv6 Portability, multihoming and TE for billions of end-user networks Modular separation of the control of mapping from the core-edge separation architecture itself Simple ITRs and ETRs with little or no communication between them Maximise the flexibility with which ITRs and ETRs can be located Mobility Elimination of encapsulation and PMTUD problems No requirement for new host functionality Full benefits to all adopters Business incentives to deploy new infrastructure Maintenance of existing levels of security and robustness 3. Non-goals Complete core-edge separation is not required Mapping changes need not be free of financial cost No attempt to cope with partially reachable ETRs No attempt to avoid all the mapping data being stored at any one location It may not be possible to completely eliminate unfair burdens No attempt to mix IPv4 and IPv6 Not Locator - Identifier Separation 4. Architectural Choices Core-edge separation rather than elimination Core-Edge Elimination (CEE) architectures Core-Edge Seperation (CES) architectures Local query servers Real-time mapping distribution SPI address management IP in IP encapsulation MHF initially or in the long term to avoid encapsulation and PMTUD problems Outer header address is that of the sending host IPTM (ITR Probes Tunnel MTU) PMTUD management 5. Architectural Elements ITRs Types of ITR and their addresses DITRs - Default ITRs in the DFZ Modified Header Forwarding - MHF-only ITRs Encapsulation and PMTUD management Mapping lookup and caching ITFH - ITR Function in Host ITRs auto-discovering local query servers ITRs regulating their advertisements ETRs In servers or dedicated routers ETRs in ISP networks ETRs at the end-user network site MHF ETR functionality - EAF and PLF ETR functionality for encapsulation QSDs - full database query servers Placement in ISP and end-user networks QSD initialization and reception of mapping updates Responding to queries Sending mapping updates to ITRs and QSCs QSCs - caching query servers FMS - Fast-Push Mapping Distribution System MHF - Modified Header Forwarding EAF - ETR Address Forwarding for IPv4 PLF - Prefix Label Forwarding, for IPv6 TTR Mobility From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 13 07:18:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69F43A681F for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:18:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.225 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.225 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.930, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8+Nxun+qpYsj for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751DC3A69C3 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4B6175A3F; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:18:14 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4DE433.309@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:18:11 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Glossary of Ivip and scalable routing terms X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:18:18 -0000 I wrote a new ID: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-glossary-00 initially as a glossary of Ivip terminology, but now also to cover various important terms as (I think) they are used in scalable routing. I hope this will help people who are coming up to speed in this field. Please suggest improvements and corrections. - Robin http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/ s-e bait: scalable routing RRG newbie newbies LISP APT Ivip core-edge separation core-edge elimination From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 13 08:13:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AFB3A67D4 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:13:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.752, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fCD09q0Nfk9W for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C763A63D3 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2D51759EA; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 03:13:09 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4DF112.2030806@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 03:13:06 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] I plan to write critiques of LISP and TIDR X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:13:15 -0000 Over the weekend I intend to write critiques of LISP and TIDR - the only other core-edge separation proposals apart from Ivip. I have read the TIDR ID and plan to check my understanding of TIDR with Juanjo before finalising what I write. Then I plan to post them to the list. This can be raw material for other people to discuss, criticise, contribute to or whatever happens to arrive at a critique which most or all interested people (except probably the proponents!) are happy with. I understand from Lixia's message 05558 that the deadline is this Friday - but I will probably need till Sunday or Monday. Later, I intend to write critiques of all the other proposals. That may be too late for the deadline, but I want to read them all and write what I think about them. - Robin From HeinerHummel@aol.com Wed Jan 13 14:24:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDF73A68AC for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:24:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOKTiuI5Gdmq for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (imr-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.206.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27243A688B for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da01.mx.aol.com (imo-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.199]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0DMNtJA005845 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:23:55 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.d67.53bafc62 (34911) for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-db02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-db02.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.153]) by cia-da02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADA028-5c394b4e47ed177; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:23:45 -0500 Received: from magic-d06.mail.aol.com (magic-d06.mail.aol.com [172.19.180.72]) by smtprly-db02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDB027-5c394b4e47ed177; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:23:41 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <81ed.422aa895.387fa1ed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:23:41 EST To: rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_81ed.422aa895.387fa1ed_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.19.180.72 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:24:05 -0000 --part1_81ed.422aa895.387fa1ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Darrel, A second response with respect to the partitioning issue: Assume geopatch xyz is partitioned. For a TARA-router which is far away from xyz it may be appropriate to offset a 64800 elements sized table and retrieve the next hop info (although xyz is partitioned) right away. A neighboring geopatch however may have several links into xyz: subsets thereof may lead into different partitions of xyz. For a TARA-router of this neighboring geopatch, by square-degree xyz offset an indication might be retrieved which refers to some other table which might have to be offset by the destination's square minute # as to retrieve a proper next hop towards the right partion. Will say: The problem is to be and can be solved. Wrt the precise solution: We should at first get to the bridge, before we cross it. Heiner --part1_81ed.422aa895.387fa1ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Darrel,
A second response with respect to the partitioning issue:
Assume geopatch xyz is partitioned.
For a TARA-router which is far away from xyz it may be=20 appropriate to offset a 64800 elements sized table and retrieve the next= hop=20 info (although xyz is partitioned) right away.
A neighboring geopatch however may have several links into xyz: subse= ts=20 thereof may lead into different partitions of xyz.
For a TARA-router of this neighboring geopatch, by square-degree= =20 xyz  offset an indication might be retrieved which refers to=20 some  other table which might have to be offset by the destination's= square=20 minute # as to retrieve a proper next hop towards  the right=20 partion. 
 
Will say: The problem is to be and can be solved. Wrt the precise sol= ution:=20 We should at first get to the bridge, before we cross it.
 
Heiner
--part1_81ed.422aa895.387fa1ed_boundary-- From rw@firstpr.com.au Wed Jan 13 19:20:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C6A3A681E for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.518, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9zm5MS3WmTAU for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC633A68D2 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9933E175705; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:20:31 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B4E8D7D.3040206@firstpr.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:20:29 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Ivip critique - speak now or forever . . . X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 03:20:39 -0000 To anyone who has concerns about the prospect of Ivip being chosen as the most promising proposal for solving the routing scaling problem: Please collaborate on a 500 word analysis / critique for the RRG Report. I understand from Lixia's msg05558.html that the deadline is Friday 15 January. If possible, please read read the new Ivip-arch-03 ID: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-arch-03 The Ivip page links to the IDs and has summaries of 10k, 2k and 1k words and a slightly updated version of the TTR Mobility paper: http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/#docs I suggest that anyone who wants to do this mention it on the list and maybe send draft pieces of critique to the list, as a way of encouraging others to add to it or improve on it. I won't respond to these unless I think they are based on a serious misunderstanding. I am hoping that the analysis / critique will have something positive to say about Ivip. However it is more important that contains the major objections *anyone* has to Ivip in as much detail as possible. Quite a few RRG members have objections to any core-edge separation scheme, because they believe core-edge elimination is the way forward. As I wrote: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05562.html there are 6 proposals for core-edge elimination schemes: GLI-Split, hIPv4, ILNP, Name-Based Sockets, Name overlay (NOL) and RANGI. Another entry, which isn't really a proposal to solve the scaling problem: "Aggregation with Increasing Scopes" suggests that the long-term solution should be host-based - which probably means core-edge elimination rather than core-edge separation. I think these general objections to core-edge separation schemes should part of the critiques of Ivip and likewise of LISP and TIDR. LISP folks - you must have serious objections to Ivip, otherwise you wouldn't propose LISP-ALT. It would be great if you would return the favour of all my critiques of LISP, read the new Ivip-arch ID and contribute your criticisms. If you don't have time for this, I guess you consider full- database local query servers and/or pushing mapping around the world in a few seconds are impossible or undesirable - so please contribute those objections in as much detail as possible. I am happy to discuss any questions or concerns about Ivip - ideally on the list, or privately by email or phone. - Robin From xuxh@huawei.com Wed Jan 13 23:46:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA703A6942 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:46:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.768 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.768 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SyqscuQznv9p for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga02-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23A6941 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga02-in [172.24.2.6]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW800GX8892IZ@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:46:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW800FTY892QS@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:46:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from HUAWEIE75F8F11 ([10.111.13.9]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KW800HFN892X4@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:46:14 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:46:14 +0800 From: Xu Xiaohu In-reply-to: To: 'Lixia Zhang' , rrg@irtf.org Message-id: <00e001ca94ed$a5fafd90$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcqTtogWsQAQmOqfRbKp4k9rWVl5/wBL7Hjw Subject: [rrg] Embedding geo info in PA addresses=>A compromise between geo-aggregatable and provider-aggregetable address//re: Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:46:29 -0000 > -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rrg-bounces@irtf.org [mailto:rrg-bounces@irtf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Lixia Zhang > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA1=D4=C213=C8=D5 2:39 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: rrg@irtf.org > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rrg] Aggregatable EIDs >=20 >=20 > On Dec 27, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 > > Hi, > > > > On 2009-12-28 14:17, Xu Xiaohu wrote: > > ... > >>> This argument fails for exactly the same reason that = geographically > >>> based BGP aggregation fails. > >> > >> Brian, who has ever done it ? > > > > Nobody, as far as I know. > > > >> Why do you say this and what do you mean by saying this ? > > > > There have been a lot of geo-based or metro-based proposals over > > the years. Most recently, draft-hain-ipv6-geo-addr. > > As far as I know, none of them has ever been deployed, because > > this isn't how Internet economics works. There is no financial > > incentive to deploy geographically based exchange points which also > > act as address delegators to customers. (Note, there is no technical > > argument against it. But nobody knows how to make money out of it.) >=20 > the above comment seems alluding to the long historical debate in geo- > based addressing, that the young folks here may not be totally aware > (I wish I were one of you people:). So here are a few pointers to > related material. >=20 > The concept was a rather old one, Greg Finn had some related proposal > back in early 80s (I didn't bother to hunt down the URL but I believe > a long tech report is still on the web). >=20 > In the early days of IPv6 design, Steve Deering gave a strong pushing > in this direction. The best ref is probably his plenary talk at July > 1995 IETF meeting: > "Metro-Based Addressing", > = ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/95jul/presentations/allocation= / > deering.slides.ps >=20 > This proposal was considered and debated at the time, but did not fly > (though effort in that direction continued on, e.g. the draft-hain- > ipv6-geo-addr mentioned above), mainly due to the reason that has been > articulated in this thread of exchanges: the model does not match the > ISP economics. >=20 > However as it happens to any debate, opinions often swing further than > proper. From time to time one hears the interpretation from that > debate as "geo info cannot be used in routing" which is not the case. > What that debate taught us (at least me) is that, for routing > decisions, ISP info must take the high order bit. > However after that high order bit is taken into account, geo info can > be very useful to further optimize the routing decisions. I like this idea. Embedding GEO info in the PA (Provider-Aggregatable) addresses will not conflict with the ISP economics. Besides, it can be = used to facilitate location-awareness based services, e.g., achieving traffic (especially P2P traffic) localization by allowing hosts to obtain information from the nearest ones of all available peers. This not only improves the user experience, but also saves the providers' bandwidth resource. Imagine the future Internet will be information centric, = rather than node centric, the location-awareness services will become much more popular. The IPv6 address provides us a possibility of embedding GEO = info in it since it has enough bits. In fact, the IPv6 PA address with GEO info embedded is used as locator = in the initial version of my RANGI proposal. For more details, please see = the following discuss thread: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05590.html Best wishes, Xiaohu > as a simple evaluation, we used the BGP data from Rotueviews and RIPE > for a measurement study, the result is reported in a paper a few years > back: > "Geographically Informed Inter-Domain Routing" > http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/giro.pdf > or if you just want a quick look of the idea, here is the presentation > slides: > http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~rveloso/papers/07ICNP_giro.ppt >=20 > Lixia >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Thu Jan 14 00:28:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83013A6959 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmN1W21ev7D5 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2C73A693F for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2E439E80E1; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8gMUHWm1bLGW; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC92739E80DC; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34083940-EFE2-4006-B91E-1F1982F16956@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: Robin Whittle In-Reply-To: <4B4DF112.2030806@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:28:26 -0800 References: <4B4DF112.2030806@firstpr.com.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] I plan to write critiques of LISP and TIDR X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:28:30 -0000 On Jan 13, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Robin Whittle wrote: > Over the weekend I intend to write critiques of LISP and TIDR - the > only other core-edge separation proposals apart from Ivip. > > I have read the TIDR ID and plan to check my understanding of TIDR > with Juanjo before finalising what I write. > > Then I plan to post them to the list. This can be raw material for > other people to discuss, criticise, contribute to or whatever happens > to arrive at a critique which most or all interested people (except > probably the proponents!) are happy with. > > I understand from Lixia's message 05558 that the deadline is this > Friday - but I will probably need till Sunday or Monday. Later, I > intend to write critiques of all the other proposals. That may be > too late for the deadline, but I want to read them all and write what > I think about them. > > - Robin Robin, I believe people would all appreciate the effort you put into RRG work. Regarding the deadline: yes I did say 1/15, but Tony argued for 1/12, and now I'd like to second your vote for Monday 1/18 as I myself need that few extra days as well. Lixia From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Thu Jan 14 00:46:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B643A696F for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UT5lpIBb-gOo for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9F23A6960 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEA539E80E1; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cQ9s7chIo8l; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6464B39E80DC; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: Christian Vogt In-Reply-To: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:46:37 -0800 References: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:46:42 -0000 On Jan 12, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Christian Vogt wrote: > Dear all - > > Below please find an analysis of name-based sockets as an Internet > routing scalability solution: > > http://christianvogt.mailup.net/pub/vogt-2009-name-based-sockets-analysis.txt > > - Christian Hi Christian, thanks for writing this up. I have two comments here, for two different (but related) issues. 1/ before this msg I only saw critique submission for one proposal, though Robin is planning to write a few more in coming days. My question is whether we let anyone, including the authors, to submit critique for each proposal. My own opinion (hat off): the most important thing is to get a critique for each proposal, not who writes it, as long as it is a critique and not something else. 2/ I read the text from the above pointer, it does not read like a critique, but an argument for why one would need name-based sockets. As every coin has 2 sides, so does name-based sockets. What are the issues? Christian, I wonder if you would consider write a real critique for name-based sockets. Lixia From xuxh@huawei.com Thu Jan 14 01:28:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCD53A685B for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 01:28:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qE1v76C3utGH for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 01:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358913A685A for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 01:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW80067DCYMDJ@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:27:58 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW800EANCYMUA@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:27:58 +0800 (CST) Received: from HUAWEIE75F8F11 ([10.111.13.9]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KW800GD4CYLHE@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:27:58 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:27:57 +0800 From: Xu Xiaohu In-reply-to: <523673BD-56FA-4D03-97C8-636A8BC786D2@cs.ucla.edu> To: 'Lixia Zhang' , rrg@irtf.org Message-id: <00e501ca94fb$dbfa3330$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcqTuJlgTz1U0FF+Qn6eNJ9y0Ke8HwBPZfpA Subject: [rrg] Reverse DNS infrastructure as id->locator mapping system//re: Aggregatable EIDs: a couple other bits X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:28:13 -0000 > I agree that different opinions exist regarding the use of reverse DNS > lookup, the degree of its effectiveness etc. But it is undeniable > that it has been a useful checking in many cases. > And we should not overlook its merit: it got adopted quickly and > widely because it made use of an existing function. The reverse DNS infrastructure is actually used as the id->locator mapping system in my RANGI proposal. We are now developing such a mapping system and will do an experiment on it latter. A brief introduction of the above mapping system is as follows: The hierarchical host identifier (HHI) consists of two parts: the leftmost part is Administrative Domain ID (AD ID), and the rightmost part is Local Host ID which is the hash of the AD ID and the public key owned by the host. The structured AD ID is used as a key in the reverse DNS infrastructure to locate the corresponding DHT ring (or a super server) which maintains mappings for the identifiers belonging to that Administration Domain, while the Local Host ID is used as a key in that corresponding DHT ring to locate the node which holds the mapping for that identifier. Hence, the mapping system has a reasonable business model and clear trust boundaries. A detailed example is given as follows: 1. A HHI will be transformed to a FQDN format string. Firstly, a HHI is expressed as "country-code.authority-code.region-code.local-host-ID" by inserting dots between adjacent fields, then it is transformed into a FQDN format string as "local-host-ID.region-code.authority-code.country-code". 2. The FQDN format string is used as a key in the reverse DNS infrastructure for ID->Locator resolution. 3. DHT can be optionally used to scale the bottom-level authoritative name servers if necessary, since the Local Host ID part of the HHI is a flat label. Best wishes, Xiaohu From HeinerHummel@aol.com Thu Jan 14 02:09:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EFF53A68B2 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:09:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z90oF7r1K+Hd for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from omr-m33.mx.aol.com (omr-m33.mx.aol.com [64.12.143.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148383A68F0 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (imo-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.136]) by omr-m33.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0EA8PDH003551; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:08:25 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.d1d.5ef7d1cd (37540); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.102]) by cia-mb02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB021-b2924b4eed0a2a6; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:08:21 -0500 Received: from magic-m04.mail.aol.com (magic-m04.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.75]) by smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME012-b2924b4eed0a2a6; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:08:10 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <1feb8.693a861a.3880470a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:08:10 EST To: xuxh@huawei.com, lixia@cs.ucla.edu, rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1feb8.693a861a.3880470a_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.75 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: Re: [rrg] Embedding geo info in PA addresses=>A compromise between geo-aggreg... X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:09:11 -0000 --part1_1feb8.693a861a.3880470a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In einer eMail vom 14.01.2010 08:46:31 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 xuxh@huawei.com: I like this idea. Embedding GEO info in the PA (Provider-Aggregatable) addresses will not conflict with the ISP economics.=20 Right.And why should it? Also: Why should ISPs be so fond of the =20 non-routable (only prefix-summarizable) IP addresses and consider them as= the =20 fundament of their economics? BTW: the readdressing discussion never table= d the=20 argument that ISPs insisted on unchanged IP addresses - for economic/imag= e=20 reasons. Imho, it is a phantom-killer argument. =20 Besides, it can be used to facilitate location-awareness based services, e.g., achieving traffic (especially P2P traffic) localization by allowing hosts to obtain information from the nearest ones of all available peers. It would enable the well-scoped ANYWHERE addressing, i.e. the search of th= e=20 present location - e.g. of a HIT, name, E164 (no enum mapping),... I am sure there will be plenty new services. This not only improves the user experience, but also saves the providers' bandwidth resource. Imagine the future Internet will be information centric, rather than node centric, the location-awareness services will become much more popular. The IPv6 address provides us a possibility of embedding GEO info= =20 in it since it has enough bits. In fact, the IPv6 PA address with GEO info embedded is used as locator in the initial version of my RANGI proposal. For more details, please see th= e following discuss thread: _http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05590.html_=20 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05590.html)=20 Why I am in favor of my TARA-locator: There is always the =20 bidirectional/bijective mapping between geographical coordinates and the= TARA-locator.=20 However by means of the TARA-locator faster forwarding (fast table-offset= s) are=20 enabled to speed up forwarding substantially.The nearer to the sender the= =20 TARA-locator is formed and added to the packet the more hops can be done= =20 fastest. =20 Heiner Best wishes, Xiaohu --part1_1feb8.693a861a.3880470a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 14.01.2010 08:46:31 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 xuxh@huawei.com:
I like=20 this idea. Embedding GEO info in the PA (Provider-Aggregatable)
addre= sses=20 will not conflict with the ISP economics.
Right.And why should it? Also: Why should ISPs be so fond of the=20 non-routable (only prefix-summarizable) IP addresses and consider them as= the=20 fundament of their economics? BTW: the readdressing discussion never= tabled=20 the argument that ISPs insisted on unchanged IP addresses - for=20 economic/image reasons.
Imho, it is a phantom-killer argument.
 
Besides,=20 it can be used
to facilitate location-awareness based services, e.g.,= =20 achieving traffic
(especially P2P traffic) localization by allowing= hosts=20 to obtain
information from the nearest ones of all available=20 peers.
It would enable the well-scoped ANYWHERE addressing, i.e. the search= of the=20 present location - e.g. of a HIT, name, E164 (no enum mapping),...
I am sure there will be plenty new services.
This not=20 only
improves the user experience, but also saves the providers'=20 bandwidth
resource. Imagine the future Internet will be information= =20 centric, rather
than node centric, the location-awareness services wi= ll=20 become much more
popular. The IPv6 address provides us a possibility= of=20 embedding GEO info in
it since it has enough bits.

In fact, th= e IPv6=20 PA address with GEO info embedded is used as locator in
the initial= version=20 of my RANGI proposal. For more details, please see the
following disc= uss=20 thread:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg0559= 0.html
Why I am in favor of my TARA-locator: There is always the=20 bidirectional/bijective mapping between geographical coordinates and the= =20 TARA-locator. However by means of the TARA-locator faster forwarding (fast= =20 table-offsets) are enabled to speed up forwarding substantially.The nearer= to=20 the sender the TARA-locator is formed and added to the packet the more hop= s can=20 be done fastest.
 
Heiner

Best=20 wishes,
Xiaohu

 
--part1_1feb8.693a861a.3880470a_boundary-- From jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 14 07:54:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB913A67DB for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:54:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0+VFwvr8fZzG for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.lcs.mit.edu (mercury.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98D23A63EB for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 11178) id E9B6D6BE594; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:54:36 -0500 (EST) To: rrg@irtf.org Message-Id: <20100114155436.E9B6D6BE594@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:54:36 -0500 (EST) From: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Cc: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: [rrg] Embedding geo info in PA addresses=>A compromise between geo-aggregatable and provider-aggregetable address//re: Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:54:41 -0000 Ah, no. Everyone who keeps going on about embedding geographic information into the names used by the path-selection is missing something really critical: ***Two computers which are _across the street from each other_, in geographic terms, may be (and often, are) _many hops apart_, in network terms - because they are connected to different ISPs whose geographically nearest point of connection is a long way away (e.g. in another city).*** Geographic information about two computers tells you _nothing_ about how close they are to each other, in terms of the path through the network between them. That is why the names used in path selection have to be based on, and embody, only the _actual network connectivity_. Now, can we stop being hearing this ridiculous nonsense about embedding geographic information in the names used by path-selection? Noel From christopher.morrow@gmail.com Thu Jan 14 08:14:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48ED3A6910 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sZCVg+3aYXc2 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.223.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105533A6853 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by iwn7 with SMTP id 7so8826311iwn.7 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:14:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=KUonWbIaPwvDgj3tw69jpQo0oePfdBkwQ8mXnBw4oys=; b=D3B5W4hs4SAiN6rCnBVfegGHfngv+4D78fyv/OUSXVLtmLxZQkjjFckjPSt4AHO09k FbXgdEp7aYLRMQfl9j9wQ2FMmit/URu/KOOycOsg+LEt+O0HwkoKP8fS00BHUu1bB3kP D2BavOTK9AMYuvbYpcYNyqRDsVWQ+19TO/T2M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=wCzw36eOuHz+2mC1Qfei5eIpXU5CHGPbgBU7lKb4lpUYTvWXtJkJ/kw3ShTaglWz0M IrRmuSHDdT5tenOzhh1Ymsl6K2FbmCOXnjaH7hEi2CkVssL/Ey5vXz1MTnVZmim8AzID 9aRfpeSzUnp0AZQ9OykiuTxxNSkks0pjwIsxs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: christopher.morrow@gmail.com Received: by 10.231.169.71 with SMTP id x7mr1098204iby.18.1263485644951; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:14:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100114155436.E9B6D6BE594@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20100114155436.E9B6D6BE594@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:14:04 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ee0f440088839063 Message-ID: <75cb24521001140814n11428b71r61306ff5bc61ab77@mail.gmail.com> From: Christopher Morrow To: Noel Chiappa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] Embedding geo info in PA addresses=>A compromise between geo-aggregatable and provider-aggregetable address//re: Aggregatable EIDs X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:14:13 -0000 On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Ah, no. > > Everyone who keeps going on about embedding geographic information into the > names used by the path-selection is missing something really critical: > > ***Two computers which are _across the street from each other_, in geographic > terms, may be (and often, are) _many hops apart_, in network terms - because > they are connected to different ISPs whose geographically nearest point of > connection is a long way away (e.g. in another city).*** > > Geographic information about two computers tells you _nothing_ about how close > they are to each other, in terms of the path through the network between them. > That is why the names used in path selection have to be based on, and embody, > only the _actual network connectivity_. > > Now, can we stop being hearing this ridiculous nonsense about embedding > geographic information in the names used by path-selection? +1 - folks REALLY need to see the guts of how an ISP network is built... and interconnected with the rest of humanity. From HeinerHummel@aol.com Thu Jan 14 10:03:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787BD3A6980 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:03:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WZQC9cb-19UV for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (imr-mb02.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747A13A6925 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da01.mx.aol.com (imo-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.199]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0EI3AxR011027; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:03:10 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id 9.c75.6851a26d (37542); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.140]) by cia-mb02.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB023-5c474b4f5c56140; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:03:05 -0500 Received: from magic-m04.mail.aol.com (magic-m04.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.75]) by smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA015-5c474b4f5c56140; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:03:02 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <8ed5.126515ed.3880b656@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:03:02 EST To: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, rrg@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8ed5.126515ed.3880b656_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.75 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Subject: Re: [rrg] Embedding geo info in PA addresses=>A compromise between geo-aggreg X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:03:26 -0000 --part1_8ed5.126515ed.3880b656_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In einer eMail vom 14.01.2010 16:54:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schrei= bt =20 jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu: Everyone who keeps going on about embedding geographic information into= the names used by the path-selection is missing something really critical: ***Two computers which are _across the street from each other_, in =20 geographic terms, may be (and often, are) _many hops apart_, in network terms -=20 because they are connected to different ISPs whose geographically nearest point= of connection is a long way away (e.g. in another city).*** 100 % right. This is exactly why my concept is based on the mapping betwee= n=20 an EID and a TARA-locator of (each of ) its xTR(s). Geographic information about two computers tells you _nothing_ about how= =20 close they are to each other, in terms of the path through the network between= =20 them. That is why the names used in path selection have to be based on, and=20 embody, only the _actual network connectivity_. Right. The shortest path is not the spheric distance, instead it is the = =20 path with the least number of hops. For simpler understanding: Consider an OSPF network topology. Here, if you= =20 want to determine the best next hop, you have to identify the egress node= =20 first:It is that node which has advertised the fitting prefix to the =20 current dest.address. However it could also be identified by a match of it= s =20 TARA-locator and the destination-TARA-locator of the forwarded packet's = =20 prepended TARA-header. Thereafter, by means of one or few table offsets th= e next =20 hop can be selected! =20 RFC4984 talks a lot about the applicability of Moore's law. Why is the RR= G=20 ignoring this? Which critique mentions "proposal xyz does/does not =20 enable the applicability of Moore's law" ? =20 Heiner =20 >Now, can we stop being hearing this ridiculous nonsense about embedding >geographic information in the names used by path-selection? > Noel _______________________________________________ rrg mailing list rrg@irtf.org http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg --part1_8ed5.126515ed.3880b656_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
In einer eMail vom 14.01.2010 16:54:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit= schreibt=20 jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu:
Everyone=20 who keeps going on about embedding geographic information into the
na= mes=20 used by the path-selection is missing something really critical:

= ***Two=20 computers which are _across the street from each other_, in=20 geographic
terms, may be (and often, are) _many hops apart_, in netwo= rk=20 terms - because
they are connected to different ISPs whose geographic= ally=20 nearest point of
connection is a long way away (e.g. in another=20 city).***
100 % right. This is exactly why my concept is based on the mapping= between=20 an EID and a TARA-locator of (each of ) its xTR(s).


Geographic information about two= computers tells you=20 _nothing_ about how close
they are to each other, in terms of the pat= h=20 through the network between them.
That is why the names used in path= =20 selection have to be based on, and embody,
only the _actual network= =20 connectivity_.
Right. The shortest path is not the spheric distance, instead it is= the=20 path with the least number of hops.
For simpler understanding: Consider an OSPF network topology. Here,= if you=20 want to determine the best next hop, you have to identify the egress node= =20 first:It is that node which has advertised the fitting prefix = to the=20 current dest.address. However it could also be identified by a match of it= s=20 TARA-locator and the destination-TARA-locator of the forwarded packet's=20 prepended TARA-header. Thereafter, by means of one or few table offsets th= e next=20 hop can be selected!
 
RFC4984 talks a lot about the applicability of Moore's law. = ;Why=20 is the RRG ignoring this? Which critique mentions "proposal xyz does/= does=20 not    enable the applicability of Moore's law" ?
 
Heiner
 
>Now, can we stop being hearing this ridiculous nonsen= se about=20 embedding
>geographic information in the names used by=20 path-selection?

>       =20 Noel
_______________________________________________
rrg mailing=20 list
rrg@irtf.org
http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg
=
 
--part1_8ed5.126515ed.3880b656_boundary-- From rw@firstpr.com.au Thu Jan 14 15:08:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A5F3A6833 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:08:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.117 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.822, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jYc-Ifp+WgvQ for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0053A6890 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix, from userid 48) id 55B73175C56; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:08:33 +1100 (EST) Received: from ppp59-167-15-236.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net ([59.167.15.236]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user rw) by gair.firstpr.com.au with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:08:33 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <82da9edb72079e991bbd34d7e55eb0a6.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <34083940-EFE2-4006-B91E-1F1982F16956@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4B4DF112.2030806@firstpr.com.au> <34083940-EFE2-4006-B91E-1F1982F16956@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:08:33 +1100 (EST) From: "Robin Whittle" To: "Lixia Zhang" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] I plan to write critiques of LISP and TIDR X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:08:42 -0000 Hi Lixia, Thanks very much for this. - Robin > I believe people would all appreciate the effort you put into RRG > work. Regarding the deadline: yes I did say 1/15, but Tony argued > for 1/12, and now I'd like to second your vote for Monday 1/18 as > I myself need that few extra days as well. From rw@firstpr.com.au Thu Jan 14 15:29:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FF128C0D8 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:29:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.614 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.614 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.208, BAYES_05=-1.11, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Le+f766uFEG3 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8907928B23E for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 15:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix, from userid 48) id 2C863175C5F; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:29:28 +1100 (EST) Received: from ppp59-167-15-236.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net ([59.167.15.236]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user rw) by gair.firstpr.com.au with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:29:28 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <1d4bc1d1604137af484f430a23f6cd55.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: References: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:29:28 +1100 (EST) From: "Robin Whittle" To: "Routing Research Group Mailing List" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: Christian Vogt Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:29:32 -0000 I plan to write a critique of Chrisitan's Name Based Sockets proposal. I haven't read much of it yet, but my impression is that it is a good approach, in many ways, if one accepts that major changes to the stack, API and all applications are both possible and desirable and if one accepts that the network should be simple and the hosts should do more routing and addressing work than they do today. I don't agree with these widely held points of view - because I think the outcomes from the best core-edge separation schemes will be better, with hosts not being required to do more than they do today. Whether or not Name Based Sockets is a core-edge elimination scheme or not, I am not sure. I will write a critique of it and see whether my concerns about extra host work and delays apply to it. I will do this ASAP after writing about LISP and TIDR and after responding on-list to a detailed set of comments I have just received on the new Ivip-arch ID. I will post it to the list so other people can comment on it and write their own critiques. I could coordinate final text for the critique of these three proposals, but I think who coordinates the text should be decided by whoever wants to contribute to such critiques. - Robin From jav@sics.se Fri Jan 15 01:00:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F003A68CD for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:00:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXsgTGkXiWsV for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:00:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2813A686E for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.10.66.36] (bit.sics.se [193.10.66.36]) (Authenticated sender: jav@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 64F50402FD; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:00:29 +0100 (CET) From: Javier Ubillos To: Robin Whittle , Routing Research Group Mailing List In-Reply-To: <1d4bc1d1604137af484f430a23f6cd55.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> References: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> <1d4bc1d1604137af484f430a23f6cd55.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-AK/KksEjiYYHOjh3ZwHO" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:00:28 +0100 Message-ID: <1263546028.3715.12.camel@bit> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Cc: Christian Vogt Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:00:34 -0000 --=-AK/KksEjiYYHOjh3ZwHO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 10:29 +1100, Robin Whittle wrote: > I plan to write a critique of Chrisitan's Name Based Sockets > proposal. Here's my 300+ word draft to a critique of the Name Based sockets. I don't mind coordinating additions/changes to the critique, I'm assuming that monday 18th is the deadline for critiques. With or without feedback, I do plan to extend this critique. // Javier --=-AK/KksEjiYYHOjh3ZwHO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAktQLqsACgkQGBo5FLRz4gr3iwCfacH26AkdDZR/ttaSoshYc/Z3 ezEAnA2imff1OnxKGrfxh8GvTX3RNU/i =R2tr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-AK/KksEjiYYHOjh3ZwHO-- From wyystars@gmail.com Fri Jan 15 01:05:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF44A3A68CD for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:05:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.845 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.845 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost 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LVlhbmd5YW5nPC9TUEFOPjwvRk9OVD48L1NQQU4+PC9QPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= ------=_NextPart_000_058E_01CA9604.FC60AC30-- From jav@sics.se Fri Jan 15 01:14:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8663A6936 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:13:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4YO-+A1Vq4dP for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0793A692D for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.10.66.36] (bit.sics.se [193.10.66.36]) (Authenticated sender: jav@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E02540305; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:13:32 +0100 (CET) From: Javier Ubillos To: Robin Whittle In-Reply-To: <1d4bc1d1604137af484f430a23f6cd55.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> References: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> <1d4bc1d1604137af484f430a23f6cd55.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-T25OGDE1iX15GUajpJ7e" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:13:31 +0100 Message-ID: <1263546811.3715.25.camel@bit> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:14:02 -0000 --=-T25OGDE1iX15GUajpJ7e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 10:29 +1100, Robin Whittle wrote: > Whether or not Name Based Sockets is a core-edge elimination > scheme or not, I am not sure. I'd confidently say that it is _not_ a core-edge elimination scheme. Name-based sockets contribution is that it erases the hosts dependency (or preference) on a given IP-address (locator). On it's own side and on the remote hosts side. By providing the end-hosts with the name abstraction (and locator agnosticism), a core-edge elimination scheme might be easier to implement or even unnecessary if the need for PI addresses could be obsoleted completely (which I admit might be an utopian scenario ;) ) > I will write a critique of it and > see whether my concerns about extra host work and delays apply to > it. I don't think there will be any delays, all extra information is appended to the packets "in-band". There is no 'first packet delay' due to any pre-negotiations, the name exchange happens simultaneously, and the individual connections are not dependent on this information being fully negotiated before data can be exchanged.=20 // Javier Ubillos --=-T25OGDE1iX15GUajpJ7e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAktQMbcACgkQGBo5FLRz4goZ8wCeImitswTnuhAU9ucbzg3kP8SW NaMAmwZdruq9vmOyZafecrBcQp5lh/M+ =SpTs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-T25OGDE1iX15GUajpJ7e-- From rw@firstpr.com.au Fri Jan 15 01:33:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA2A3A6952 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O01BCqHUnirY for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7200A3A693A for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72DA175AE6; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:33:02 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B50364E.2000604@firstpr.com.au> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:33:02 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <43320A14-6F07-49E2-98BB-71E5CC68C833@ericsson.com> <1d4bc1d1604137af484f430a23f6cd55.squirrel@gair.firstpr.com.au> <1263546811.3715.25.camel@bit> In-Reply-To: <1263546811.3715.25.camel@bit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:33:08 -0000 Hi Javier, Thanks for commenting on my possibly mistaken first impressions of Name Based Sockets: http://christianvogt.mailup.net/pub/vogt-2009-name-based-sockets.pdf http://christianvogt.mailup.net/pub/vogt-2009-name-based-sockets-analysis.txt I will read the proposal properly as soon as I can, and will respond to your critique of my initial impressions ASAP. First I need to do some Ivip things and work on critiques of LISP and TIDR. I would be happy for you to coordinate the final text of the critique of Name Based Sockets. - Robin >> Whether or not Name Based Sockets is a core-edge elimination >> scheme or not, I am not sure. > > I'd confidently say that it is _not_ a core-edge elimination scheme. > Name-based sockets contribution is that it erases the hosts dependency > (or preference) on a given IP-address (locator). On it's own side and on > the remote hosts side. > > By providing the end-hosts with the name abstraction (and locator > agnosticism), a core-edge elimination scheme might be easier to > implement or even unnecessary if the need for PI addresses could be > obsoleted completely (which I admit might be an utopian scenario ;) ) > >> I will write a critique of it and >> see whether my concerns about extra host work and delays apply to >> it. > > I don't think there will be any delays, all extra information is > appended to the packets "in-band". There is no 'first packet delay' due > to any pre-negotiations, the name exchange happens simultaneously, and > the individual connections are not dependent on this information being > fully negotiated before data can be exchanged. From rw@firstpr.com.au Fri Jan 15 03:29:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2033A68AB for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 03:29:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.784, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xsgmC5nqMGVK for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 03:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32563A686C for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 03:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629B8175AE6; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:29:41 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B5051A4.7010402@firstpr.com.au> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:29:40 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Ivip-arch-03 - comments by Mohamed Boucadair X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:29:49 -0000 Mohamed (Med) Boucadair of orange.com wrote some thoughtful comments on version 03 of: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-arch With his permission I am making them available at my site: http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/fb/Ivip-arch-03-Med-Boucadair.pdf and will respond to them on the RRG list as soon as I can. - Robin From rw@firstpr.com.au Fri Jan 15 04:01:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833F93A6A83 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 04:01:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.562, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2+uBXLFoHoe for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 04:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280E53A6A81 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 04:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E52175AE1; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:01:38 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B505922.6010301@firstpr.com.au> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:01:38 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Ivip fast-push mapping sys. I am simplifying the Launch server part X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:01:44 -0000 When reading about Ivip's Fast push Mapping distribution System (FMS) in the current IDs: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-arch-03 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-db-fast-push-02 please ignore the material about the Launch servers being different from the Replicators, operating as a single system with complex protocols for them by which they form a quorum and decide which packets to send the level 1 Replicators. There's a much easier way. I will describe it properly in a later message and will update the drafts. Here's a short version: I will probably drop the term "Launch server" and replace it with "level 0 Replicator". 4 to 6 of them should be fine. They are the same as Replicators, but this set of 6 or whatever are "fully meshed": each drives all the others. Each RUAS sends update packets to, ideally, all level 0 Replicators. There is no need for the RUASes to be synchronised or to communicate, except perhaps for the purpose of each RUAS having a quota of packets it can send in the next second or so, in order to limit the total number of packets sent to all Replicators. This is a flooding system at a packet-by-packet level, with each packet being identified by the RUAS number and a sequence number for that RUAS. Each would also carry a timestamp for when it was sent, but the RUAS number and sequence number is all the Replicators use when deciding whether they have already received a packet with these contents before. As per the current IDs, packets arrive from RUASes or from other Replicators protected, for each such link, by DTLS. These identifying numbers, timestamp and mapping data are in the deciphered version of the packet. Two packets with deciphered payloads containing identical RUAS and sequence numbers carry the same payload of mapping information, even though the packets themselves, from different sources, will be different when they arrive due to the DTLS encryption. The Replicator sends 20 or so (more is probably practical) "copies" of the first packet it receives with a new combination of RUAS number and sequence number. It ignores subsequent copies. These resultant packets have the same two numbers, time-stamp and mapping information, but are separately DTLS encrypted for each destination device (another Replicator or a QSD). This is a simple, packet-by-packet, flooding system which should be really simple, robust and fast. It is asynchronous. I find it hard to imagine a simpler or faster global system for distribution of mapping. Has anyone heard of such a system? It wouldn't be surprising if someone has already worked on a system like this. One thing I will add to future drafts is a note about the length of these packets. Today, and no-doubt in the future, the packets would have to be of some sub-1500 byte length, such as 1470 or 1470. All QSDs and all Replicators would need an MTU of at least this between each other. In the probably distant future, with jumbo-frame (~9k bytes) capable DFZ and with most ISP and large end-user networks also with ~9kbyte MTUs, it would be desirable to build a second, parallel, FMS system with Replicators and QSDs handling fewer ~9kbyte packets. This would require a separate set of packets being emitted by the RUAS for the second system, which has ~9kbyte MTUs between all its Replicators and QSDs. Each QSD would get its mapping feed from either the original ~1.5kbyte system or from the new one. There would need to be a second set of copies of packets in the lost-packet servers too. - Robin From jav@sics.se Fri Jan 15 06:28:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406353A67BE for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:28:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sTyuEiJ4gW5f for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365E83A6AC0 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.10.66.36] (bit.sics.se [193.10.66.36]) (Authenticated sender: jav@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B378940103 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:28:34 +0100 (CET) From: Javier Ubillos To: Routing Research Group Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-YcSYIiqgQdTgMbRQEUGN" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:28:33 +0100 Message-ID: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:28:39 -0000 --=-YcSYIiqgQdTgMbRQEUGN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-0R8QH5aEVZL8FEYnekZd" --=-0R8QH5aEVZL8FEYnekZd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 09:00 -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I could not find the actual critique in this message. I found a=20 > "signature.asc", but no other attachments, and the message body is as shown. >=20 > Yours, > Joel That's because I forgot to attach the file :) Sorry for that. Here it is. // Javier --=-0R8QH5aEVZL8FEYnekZd Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="critique of name-based sockets.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; name="critique of name-based sockets.txt"; charset="UTF-8" TmFtZS1CYXNlZCBTb2NrZXRzIENyaXRpcXVlDQoNCk5hbWUtYmFzZWQgc29ja2V0cyBjb250cmli dXRpb24gdG8gdGhlIHJvdXRpbmcgc2NhbGFiaWxpdHkgcHJvYmxlbSBpcyBwcm92aWRpbmcgZW5k IGhvc3RzIHdpdGggYSBuZXR3b3JrIGludGVyZmFjZSB3aGljaCBtYWtlcyB0aGUgZW5kLWhvc3Qg YWRkcmVzcyAobG9jYXRvcikgYWdub3N0aWMuIFRoZSBuYW1lIGFic3RyYWN0aW9uIGFsbG93cyB0 aGUgaG9zdHMgdG8gdXNlIGFueSB0eXBlIG9mIGxvY2F0b3IsIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IG9mIGZvcm1h dCBvciBwcm92aWRlci4gVGhlIHByb2plY3RlZCByZXN1bHQgaXMgdGhhdCBubyBwcm92aWRlciBp bmRlcGVuZGVudCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgd2lsbCBiZSByZXF1aXJlZCBmb3IgbXVsdGktaG9taW5nIGFu ZCBtb2JpbGl0eSBzb2x1dGlvbnMuDQoNCkRlcGxveW1lbnQ6DQpUaGUgbWFpbiBpbmNlbnRpdmVz IGFuZCBkcml2ZXJzIGFyZSBnZWFyZWQgdG93YXJkcyB0aGUgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgb2YgbmV3IGFw cGxpY2F0aW9ucyBhbmQgaW4gdGhlIHNsb3dlciBtaWdyYXRpb24gb2Ygb2xkIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9u cyB0byB0aGUgbmV3IEFQSS4gQWxzbywgbm90IGFsbCBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgY2FuIGJlIHBvcnRl ZCB0byBhIEZRRE4gZGVwZW5kZW50IGluZnJhc3RydWN0dXJlLCBlLmcuIEROUyBmdW5jdGlvbnMu IFRoaXMgaHVyZGxlIGNhbiBiZSBvdmVyY29tZSwgYW5kIG1heSBub3QgYmUgYSBkZWZpbml0ZSBv YnN0YWNsZSBmb3IgdGhlIHRyYW5zaXRpb24gb2YgYSB3aG9sZSBkb21haW4sIGJ1dCBpdCBuZWVk cyB0byBiZSB0YWtlbiBpbnRvIGFjY291bnQgd2hlbiBzdHJpdmluZyBmb3IgbW9iaWxpdHkvbXVs dGktaG9taW5nIG9mIGFuIGVudGlyZSBzaXRlLiBUaGUgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiBvZiBmdW5jdGlvbnMg b24gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBob3N0cyBtYXkgYmUgdHJpdmlhbCwgZWl0aGVyIHRocm91Z2ggdXBncmFk ZXMvY2hhbmdlcyB0byB0aGUgT1Mgb3IgYXMgbGlua2VkIGxpYnJhcmllcywgaG93ZXZlciwgdXBn cmFkZWQgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIHJlcXVpcmUgc3VwcG9ydCBmcm9tIGFsbCBpbnRlcmFjdGluZyBo b3N0cy4gVGhpcyBjYW4gc3RpbGwgaGFwcGVuIGluY3JlbWVudGFsbHksIGJ1dCBpdCBkb2VzIHJl cXVpcmUgdGhlIHNlcnZlciBpbiBhIGNsaWVudC9zZXJ2ZXIgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gdG8gbWFpbnRh aW4gYm90aCBhbiB1cGdyYWRlZCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIGEgbm9uLXVwZ3JhZGVkIGZ1bmN0aW9uIGR1 cmluZyB0aGUgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiBwaGFzZS4NCg0KRWRnZS1uZXR3b3JrczoNCk5hbWUtYmFzZWQg c29ja2V0cyBwcm92aWRlIGEgbmV3IG5ldHdvcmtpbmctQVBJIHdoaWNoIGlzIG5vdCBuZWNlc3Nh cmlseSBiYWNrd2FyZHMgY29tcGF0aWJsZSAodGhlcmUgaXMgYSB0cmFjayB0aGF0IHN1Z2dlc3Rz IGFsbG93aW5nIElQcyBhcyBuYW1lcykuIFRoaXMgcHV0cyBpbiBxdWVzdGlvbiB0byB3aGljaCBl eHRlbnQgYSB3aG9sZSBlZGdlLXNpdGUgbWlnaHQgYWNjZXB0IFBBIGFkZHJlc3Nlcy4gTmFtZS1i YXNlZCBzb2NrZXRzIG1heSBtYWtlIGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgY2xpZW50IGFnbm9zdGljIHRvIHRo ZSBuZXR3b3JraW5nIG1lZGl1bSwgYmUgaXQgUEEvUEkgSVAtYWRkcmVzc2VzIG9yIGluIGEgdGhl IGZ1dHVyZSBhbiBlbnRpZXJseSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgbmV0d29ya2luZyBtZWRpdW0uIEhvd2V2ZXIs IGFuIGVudGlyZSBlZGdlLW5ldHdvcmssIHdpdGggaW50ZXJuYWwgYW5kIGV4dGVybmFsIHNlcnZp Y2VzIHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gbWFrZSBhIGNvbXBsZXRlIHRyYW5zaXRpb24gaW4gdGhl IG5lYXIgZnV0dXJlLiBJbiBzaG9ydCwgbmV3IHNlcnZpY2VzIG1heSBiZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCB1 c2luZyBuYW1lLWJhc2VkIHNvY2tldHMsIG9sZCBzZXJ2aWNlcyBtYXkgYmUgcG9ydGVkLCBidXQg Zm9yIGEgY29tcGxldGUgZWRnZS1uZXR3b3JrIHRyYW5zaXRpb24gYmFja3dhcmRzIGNvbXBhdGli aWxpdHkgbWF5IGJlIGEgaGluZGVyLg0KDQoNCg== --=-0R8QH5aEVZL8FEYnekZd-- --=-YcSYIiqgQdTgMbRQEUGN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAktQe44ACgkQGBo5FLRz4gow8gCfQX7DvhLu29jDhSvXMC/rPSDY 7Z0An1n1cE5zrlPYkKMg68xt9QdyANAH =cgYL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-YcSYIiqgQdTgMbRQEUGN-- From tony.li@tony.li Fri Jan 15 23:25:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BA73A689D for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.463, BAYES_40=-0.185, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d06VGqvuKP4G for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20DC53A67AD for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W7R01d0011ZMdJ4A37R0YR; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:00 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W7RU1d0033L8a8Q8c7RU3R; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:29 +0000 Message-ID: <4B50A64C.5090203@tony.li> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:30:52 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Trivial editorial note... X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:03 -0000 We initially proposed that the section that we are currently working on be called 'analysis'. However the name 'critique' seems to have stuck instead. I'd like to propose that we shift to that name officially. Any objections? Thanks, Tony From tony.li@tony.li Fri Jan 15 23:25:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0723A67AD for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.312, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, SARE_BAYES_5x7=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LtaXGVqEaP1M for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32CE3A67B6 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.89]) by qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W7Ml1d0021vN32cA27R1Dv; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:01 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W7RS1d0013L8a8Q8i7RS20; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4B50A83F.3060002@tony.li> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:39:11 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Late proposal addition: RANGER X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:25:04 -0000 Hi all, Some of you may have noticed that Fred Templin's RANGER proposal has been noticeably absent from our document. Fred has been working on this quite vocally since the earliest days of this work and to exclude his proposal would leave out a notable component in our discussions. Through a series of miscommunications, the summary was not presented by the official deadline. As a result, the chairs have decided to grant RANGER an exception. The attached summary will be included in the document. Regards, Lixia & Tony proposal: --------- Routing and Addressing in Next-Generation EnteRprises (RANGER) key idea: --------- RANGER is a locator-identifier separation approach that uses IP-in-IP encapsulation to connect edge networks across transit networks such as the global Internet. End systems use endpoint interface identifier (EID) addresses that may be routable within edge networks but do not appear in transit network routing tables. EID to Routing Locator (RLOC) address bindings are instead maintained in mapping tables and also cached in default router FIBs (i.e., very much the same as for the global DNS and its associated caching resolvers). RANGER enterprise networks are organized in a recursive hierarchy with default mappers connecting lower layers to the next higher layer in the hierarchy. Default mappers forward initial packets and push mapping information to lower-tier routers and end systems through secure redirection. RANGER is an architectural framework derived from the Intra-Site Automatic Tunnel Addressing Protocol (ISATAP). gains: ------ - provides scalable routing system alternative in instances where dynamic routing protocols are impractical - naturally supports a recursively-nested "network-of-networks" (or, "enterprise-within-enterprise") hierarchy - uses asymmetric securing mechanisms (i.e., secure neighbor discovery) to secure router discovery and the redirection mechanism - can quickly detect path failures and pick alternate routes - naturally supports provider-independent addressing - support for site multihoming and traffic engineering - ingress filtering for multi-homed sites - mobility-agile through explicit cache invalidation (much more reactive than DynDns) - supports neighbor discovery and neighbor unreachability detection over tunnels - no changes to end systems - no changes to most routers - supports IPv6 transition - compatible with true identity/locator split mechansims such as HIP (i.e., packets contain HIP HIT as end system identifier, IPv6 address as endpoint Interface iDentifier (EID) in inner IP header and IPv4 address as Routing LOCator (RLOC) in outer IP header) - prototype code available costs: ------ - new code needed in enterprise border routers - locator/path liveness detection using RFC4861 neighbor unreachability detection (i.e., extra control messages, but data-driven) full documentation: ------------------- draft-templin-ranger-09.txt (RANGER Architecture) draft-russert-rangers-01.txt (RANGER Scenarios) draft-templin-intarea-vet-06.txt (Virtual Enterprise Traversal) draft-templin-intarea-seal-08.txt (Subnetwork Encapsulation and Adaptation Layer) RFC5214 (Intra-site Automatic Tunnel Addressing Protocol - IETF RFC) RFC4214 (Intra-site Automatic Tunnel Addressing Protocol - IETF RFC) From tony.li@tony.li Fri Jan 15 23:30:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512C53A68ED for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:30:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.071 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.071 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.528, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O2W84xJJQU89 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB383A67B6 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W7Vj1d0050b6N64A67VzEa; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:29:59 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W7Vx1d0053L8a8Q8P7Vyxu; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:29:58 +0000 Message-ID: <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:29:56 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Javier Ubillos References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> In-Reply-To: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:30:19 -0000 Javier Ubillos wrote: > On Fri, 2010-01-15 at 09:00 -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I could not find the actual critique in this message. I found a >> "signature.asc", but no other attachments, and the message body is as > shown. >> Yours, >> Joel > > That's because I forgot to attach the file :) > > Sorry for that. > Here it is. > Received and incorporated. Tony From rw@firstpr.com.au Sat Jan 16 00:08:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F563A67D9 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.364 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.364 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.531, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3I+zbeasv3rG for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B4B3A6767 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF01B175B17; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:08:15 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:08:16 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> In-Reply-To: <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:08:22 -0000 Hi Tony, You wrote that you "Received and incorporated." Javier Ubillos' critique of Name Based Sockets. I wrote 33 hours ago that I planned to contribute to the critique of Name Based Sockets. I haven't had a chance to do this. Javier's critique has received no input from me, and there could be other people who want to contribute to the 500 word critique for the final RRG Report. I request that you wait until the deadline has passed before incorporating any such critiques. Someone could have further suggestions, or a significantly different view on something. That said, I don't have any specific disagreement with Javier's critique. - Robin From tony.li@tony.li Sat Jan 16 00:13:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3073A67D9 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:13:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJJXwzOh18Gb for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7F43A68A7 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.43]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W8Cg1d0040vp7WLA48DeYJ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:13:38 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id W8Dc1d0033L8a8Q8R8Dc8h; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:13:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:13:34 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:13:50 -0000 Robin Whittle wrote: > Hi Tony, > > You wrote that you "Received and incorporated." Javier Ubillos' > critique of Name Based Sockets. > > I wrote 33 hours ago that I planned to contribute to the critique of > Name Based Sockets. I haven't had a chance to do this. Javier's > critique has received no input from me, and there could be other > people who want to contribute to the 500 word critique for the final > RRG Report. > > I request that you wait until the deadline has passed before > incorporating any such critiques. Someone could have further > suggestions, or a significantly different view on something. > > That said, I don't have any specific disagreement with Javier's critique. > > - Robin > > As stated previously, if there are multiple critiques of a proposal, we will simply pick one. If you two choose to collaborate and revise the critique, we will accept it. Tony From jav@sics.se Sat Jan 16 00:18:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174A93A689D for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:18:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rT4RhI3hmEET for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1233A6767 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.150] (h206n3-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com [78.72.156.206]) (Authenticated sender: jav@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63A2B40319; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:18:26 +0100 (CET) From: Javier Ubillos To: Routing Research Group Mailing List In-Reply-To: <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-ka35rnucsx6Wp0SbCJ5+" Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 09:18:23 +0100 Message-ID: <1263629903.3110.1.camel@bit> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List , Robin Whittle Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:18:32 -0000 --=-ka35rnucsx6Wp0SbCJ5+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2010-01-16 at 00:13 -0800, Tony Li wrote: > Robin Whittle wrote: > > Hi Tony, > >=20 > > You wrote that you "Received and incorporated." Javier Ubillos' > > critique of Name Based Sockets. > >=20 > > I wrote 33 hours ago that I planned to contribute to the critique of > > Name Based Sockets. I haven't had a chance to do this. Javier's > > critique has received no input from me, and there could be other > > people who want to contribute to the 500 word critique for the final > > RRG Report. > >=20 > > I request that you wait until the deadline has passed before > > incorporating any such critiques. Someone could have further > > suggestions, or a significantly different view on something. > >=20 > > That said, I don't have any specific disagreement with Javier's critiqu= e. > >=20 > > - Robin > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > As stated previously, if there are multiple critiques of a proposal, we=20 > will simply pick one. If you two choose to collaborate and revise the=20 > critique, we will accept it. >=20 > Tony >=20 If any one wants to make additions to the document I posted, feel free to mail me before the deadline (preferably with some margin) and I'll do my best to incorporate the changes/additions. // Javier --=-ka35rnucsx6Wp0SbCJ5+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAktRdk0ACgkQGBo5FLRz4gpnsQCgiExz1ydg1wRGITnnlfydocNw 284An3D+s8U8+et6SB2zAtnBnUWMigBM =5bZw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ka35rnucsx6Wp0SbCJ5+-- From rw@firstpr.com.au Sat Jan 16 00:29:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387513A680A for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:29:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.503, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z0i6uwy1jXlm for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:29:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BDB3A6767 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5448B1759CB; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:29:17 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B5178DD.3060201@firstpr.com.au> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:29:17 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Routing Research Group Mailing List References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> <1263629903.3110.1.camel@bit> In-Reply-To: <1263629903.3110.1.camel@bit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:29:22 -0000 Hi Tony and Javier, Thanks for your replies. My understanding is that one or more people can write a critique and post it to the list. Then other people can suggest improvements, which the original author(s) may or may not incorporate to the satisfaction of the second person. Second and subsequent individuals or groups can contribute alternative critiques by posting them to the list - and Lixia and Tony will choose one of them. I think this would be a good approach. In that case, I think that whenever anyone posts a critique to the list, that it should not be immediately "incorporated". - Robin From rw@firstpr.com.au Sat Jan 16 02:18:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049A63A6930 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 02:18:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.478, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1btN-vyekNO for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 02:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89353A6878 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 02:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB6A17573B; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:18:09 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B519262.5080907@firstpr.com.au> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 21:18:10 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG , Lixia Zhang , Tony Li Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Deadline for critiques - and RANGER X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:18:19 -0000 Short version: I think we need another two weeks to write a proper set of critiques. I think writing the "rebuttals" and the "reflections" won't take long - maybe a week to do both. We are deciding how to advise the IETF on the best way to develop a once in several decades upgrade on the most widely used, entrenched, IT system in the world. No-one knows how much is invested in routers and the, Internet aspects of host OSes applications, but it is clearly in the tens or hundreds of billions of dollars. The upgrade has to last for decades, be performed while it is running and be widely adopted on a purely voluntary basis. (Also, I think, the upgrade needs to support billions of mobile hosts - which is surely the future of the devices currently known as "cellphones". I think this could best be done via global mobility of their address space, no matter what access network they are connected to.) With two days to go, this "critique" phase of the RRG's work has only produced results for 2 of 16 proposals. We need more time. Hi Lixia and Tony, I support the late inclusion of Fred Templin's RANGER core-edge separation proposal. I would like to contribute to a critique, but there's no way I can do this in the next week or so. It is a well-documented architecture so there is a lot of material to read. I would like you to consider a significant extension of the deadline for the critique phase of this process - to Monday 1st February. I would be suggesting this anyway, but now we have one more, extensively documented and well-researched proposal to read and consider. Further to msg05670, here is my understanding of the Critique process for each of the now 16 proposals: One or more people write a critique and post it to the list. Other people may try to contribute to that critique (via the list or privately) and the original author(s) may or may not accept such alterations to their satisfaction. So updated versions of the original draft of the critique may be posted to the list. Multiple critiques from multiple people or groups of people may be posted to the list in this manner, being revised by their authors - and I guess copied in part to be the basis of other critiques. At deadline, if there are two or more competing critiques which still have support, then Lixia and Tony will choose one. The critiques are a tricky thing. Some of people (me at least) want to contribute to multiple critiques, so we have a lot of work to do by the deadline. Since various people may want to contribute to the one critique, we need to perform autodiscovery and then work together. Autodiscovery really needs to be done on-list with an announcement of intention to contribute to a critique. Otherwise how could anyone know who to work with? My understanding is that the deadline is Monday 18th January (Lixia's message msg05648). Due to misunderstandings of the original instructions (msg05544, with a 5th January deadline) - which I misunderstood - two proposals have had an "analysis" (now "critique" msg05664) written by the proponents: Name Based Sockets and Name Overlay Service. But critiques need to be critical and written by someone other than the proponents. Here's my understanding of the state of the critiques: ILNP http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05539.html Ran Atkinson Joel Halpern and Yakov Rekhter wrote a critique (msg05624). I support their critique but in the future I may have other things to mention about the need for DNS lookups to achieve equivalent certainty to today's protocols that the initial response packet really goes to the host which the request supposedly was sent by. I need more time to work on this and hope to do it by the time of the final choice discussion. LISP http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05503.html Vince Fuller, Dino Farrinacci, David Meyer and Darrel Lewis. I announced I would contribute to a critique of LISP. So far no-one has indicated that they would also contribute. TIDR http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05538.html Juan Jose Adan I announced I would contribute to a critique of TIDR. So far no-one has indicated that they would also contribute. However, Mohamed Boucadair has sent Juanjo and I a copy of the TIDR ID with his extensive thoughtful comments. I hope that he or Juanjo will post it to the RRG list as an attachment to contribute to the RRG discussion of TIDR. Name Based Sockets http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05543.html Christian Vogt I announced I would contribute to a critique of Name Based Sockets. So far no-one has indicated that they would also contribute. Ivip http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05533.html Robin Whittle Christian Vogt wrote to me offering to coordinate a critique of Ivip - which I very much appreciate. I suggested he announce this on the list. I think the choice of coordinator should be made by whoever wants to contribute. I think it is vital that the LISP folks state their objections to the other core-edge separation proposals, including Ivip, TIDR and now RANGER. RANGER http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05665.html Fred Templin I have offered to contribute to a critique, but not by the the current deadline. To date, only 2 of 15 proposals have critiques. For a further 4 proposals, someone (only me so far) has announced their intention to contribute to a critique. As far as I know, there has been no announcement that anyone is interested in writing critiques for the following 9 contributions. Those marked * are the ones, which in my opinion (msg05562) do not constitute actual proposals for the scalable routing problem. Nonetheless, they are part of the process and need critiques (msg05564). * 2-phased mapping for Internet core/edge split schemes http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05536.html Wei Zhang * Aggregation with Increasing Scopes: An Evolutionary Path Towards Global Routing Scalability http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05542.html Dan Jen, Dan Massey, Robert Raszuk, Lan Wang, Xiaohu Xu, Beichuan Zhang and Lixia Zhang. * Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05540.html K. Sriram, Young-Tak Kim, and Doug Montgomery Global Locator, Local Locator, and Identifier Split (GLI-Split) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05537.html Michael Menth, Matthias Hartmann and Dominik Klein hIPv4 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05529.html Patrick Frejborg * Layered Mapping System http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05534.html Sun Letong, YinXia, Wang ZhiLiang, Wu Jianping * Mapping system based on compact routing http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05519.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05531.html Hannu Flinck Name overlay (NOL) service for scalable Internet routing http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05532.html Yangyang Wang RANGI http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05505.html Xiaohu XU Here are some arguments for a deadline extension, such as to Monday 1 February. In your original deadline (msg05544), now extended twice to Monday 18 January seems to have been based on an underestimate of how long it would take people to read proposals, nominate themselves on the list and actually write and refine the critiques. Only Joel Halpern and Yakov Rekhter were able to write a critique by the first revision of the deadline (msg05556). There are four scalable routing proposals so far with no-one nominating to write a critique: GLI, hIPv4, NOL and RANGI. I plan to write critiques of these in time to contribute to the RRG's final choice discussion - but not in the next week or so. My first priority is to make some improvement to Ivip's fast push mapping system, to respond on list to Mohamed Boucadair's comments on Ivip. Then I am going to contribute to critiques of TIDR, LISP, Name Based Sockets and RANGER. We need more time for people to write a proper set of critiques. I recall your initial timetable was for 14 days between stages - 14 days for the proponents to write a "rebuttal" of the critique, and then 14 days for people other than the proponents (presumably those who wrote the critique) to write a "reflection". I think this is a good process, but that you need to give us more time for the critique phase. I can't speak for other proponents, but it won't take me 14 days to write a 500 word "rebuttal" of the critique Christian Vogt and hopefully others will write for Ivip. (Not that my response will necessarily be a simple rebuttal.) The "rebuttal" stage is an entirely parallel process, since each proponent only has to write one. Some folks want to contribute to multiple critiques, which is a serial process. Also, critiques involve reading a potentially large body of material which we are not familiar with and then carefully crafting a respectful and well-informed critique in only 500 words. Ideally, this will also involve working with other contributors and checking with the proponents that we haven't misunderstood something. The proponents, when responding to the chosen critique, already know their proposal inside out and are responding to only 500 words, which they have seen in various drafts on the list prior to the deadline. I don't think it will take the authors of the critique - and anyone else who has something to say - 14 days to write a "reflection". They have already read the proposals and are only responding to 500 words. I think it will only take a week or so to do both the "rebuttal" and "reflection" stages. - Robin From tony.li@tony.li Sat Jan 16 10:33:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0613A68A8 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:33:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.411, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yl1XVvhJwHmh for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6475C3A6819 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta23.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.90]) by qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WHf51d0081wfjNsA9JZkJi; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:33:44 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta23.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WJZi1d00V3L8a8Q8jJZiHj; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:33:44 +0000 Message-ID: <4B520684.3000801@tony.li> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:33:40 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> <1263629903.3110.1.camel@bit> <4B5178DD.3060201@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B5178DD.3060201@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:33:48 -0000 Robin Whittle wrote: > Hi Tony and Javier, > > Thanks for your replies. > > My understanding is that one or more people can write a critique and > post it to the list. Then other people can suggest improvements, > which the original author(s) may or may not incorporate to the > satisfaction of the second person. > > Second and subsequent individuals or groups can contribute > alternative critiques by posting them to the list - and Lixia and > Tony will choose one of them. > > I think this would be a good approach. In that case, I think that > whenever anyone posts a critique to the list, that it should not be > immediately "incorporated". > > - Robin > > Hi Robin, Thank you for your comment. However, in the interests of getting a draft out for subsequent steps promptly and not leaving all of the editorial work to a giant unsatisfiable lump at the deadline, we will be serializing the work. We have no objections to adding updated critiques, if and when those become available or choosing an alternate critique if one is presented. In other words, "incorporated" is not necessarily a final state. Regards, Tony From tony.li@tony.li Sat Jan 16 10:40:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4F33A67DB for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:40:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.370, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8k+JrlyjaEVV for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416C73A67F6 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WGAh1d00D0b6N64A4Jg6Ar; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:40:06 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WJg51d00L3L8a8Q8PJg55N; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:40:06 +0000 Message-ID: <4B520803.6090007@tony.li> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:40:03 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Whittle References: <4B519262.5080907@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B519262.5080907@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Deadline for critiques - and RANGER X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:40:09 -0000 Hi Robin, Robin Whittle wrote: > Short version: I think we need another two weeks to write a proper > set of critiques. I think writing the "rebuttals" > and the "reflections" won't take long - maybe a > week to do both. I'm sorry, but I disagree. In my humble experience, tasks tend to take at least as long as you allow them to. People procrastinate until the last possible second and then actually focus on the task at hand. This is what causes schedule compression and slips. The only alternative is to provide a schedule that allows those who are proactively trying to meet the schedule ample time for all aspects of the task and then stick to it. That's exactly what we're trying to do. Three weeks to produce 500 words seems like it should have been ample time. Tony From rw@firstpr.com.au Sat Jan 16 17:59:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EAAE3A68A6 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:59:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.455, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvJzKfKdLmuD for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DF13A68A5 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE5417557A; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:59:36 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B526F09.2050004@firstpr.com.au> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:59:37 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li References: <4B519262.5080907@firstpr.com.au> <4B520803.6090007@tony.li> In-Reply-To: <4B520803.6090007@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Deadline for critiques - and RANGER X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:59:44 -0000 Short version: I request the deadline be extended and am asking Tony to contribute a critique of the three most important architectural choices which are the basis for Ivip. Such a critique would also be directly relevant to the same or different choices made by the designers of many other proposals. Hi Tony, You wrote: >> Short version: I think we need another two weeks to write a proper >> set of critiques. I think writing the "rebuttals" >> and the "reflections" won't take long - maybe a >> week to do both. > > I'm sorry, but I disagree. In my humble experience, tasks tend to take > at least as long as you allow them to. OK - that is your experience. I don't know how many proposal IDs and other documents you have read in full, but as far as I know, you have not attempted to write any critiques. My arguments concern those who are attempting to do both - including especially those people who are attempting to do this for several proposals. > People procrastinate until the > last possible second and then actually focus on the task at hand. This > is what causes schedule compression and slips. Speak for yourself. I have spent most of the last few weeks improving my Ivip proposal and reading some proposals. My first priority is to improve Ivip and respond to some thoughtful comments on Ivip-arch-03. Then, as I wrote, I have a bunch of proposals to read and understand in detail. Proposals can't be understood and properly assessed in isolation - we need to understand the alternative proposals too. Then I will try to write respectful, comprehensive and well informed critiques. Trying to do this for LISP in only 500 words will take a lot longer than with a less stringent word limit. > The only alternative is to provide a schedule that allows those who are > proactively trying to meet the schedule ample time for all aspects of > the task and then stick to it. That's exactly what we're trying to do. OK - then please accept my arguments. As far as I know, there isn't anyone else who is working harder to provide the critiques you need. I don't recall you and Lixia asking list members how long it would take to read and critique the proposals. You simply announced a deadline which was impossibly short, and which has now been extended twice. Only Joel and Yakov met the first extension - and as far as I know, they were working on only one proposal. > Three weeks to produce 500 words seems like it should have been ample time. This is an extraordinarily reductionist perspective. Some of us - me at least - are working on reading and critiquing multiple proposals, while trying to improve our proposals to make it easier for other people to write well-informed critiques. You have had two and a half years to understand Ivip and to write something substantial about it on the list. Likewise LISP and some other current RRG proposals which have been under development for two or more years. I don't recall you have done so. Nor have you made or contributed to a proposal yourself. As far as I know, your role as co-chair does not prevent you from commenting constructively on proposals. Indeed I think this role means you should be leading by example to show how constructive critiques should be done. The new Ivip-03 ID is perfectly readable. It will take you about two hours. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-arch-03 (Please ignore the concept of Launch servers being involved in a complex pipelined protocol. I am about to replace them with ordinary Replicators in a fully meshed arrangement. There is no need for delays or any other protocols. They will be replaced by level 0 replicators flood each other and then drive the other levels as described.) I don't think you will have any difficulty understanding it. If you do, please email me on-list or privately. It concerns goals, non-goals, architectural choices and the "engineering" details which drive those choices. I would really like you to contribute something to the critique of Ivip. I hope you will be able to discuss what, if any, objections you have to the three most important architectural choices I made: 4.1. Core-edge separation rather than elimination . . . . . . . 27 4.2. Local query servers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 4.3. Real-time mapping distribution . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 Your assessment of the first choice would also constitute an assessment of the same choice made by the designers of LISP, TIDR and RANGER (and APT & TRRP). Likewise it would be an assessment of the opposite choice made by the designers of the 6 or so core-edge elimination schemes which the RRG is considering. Your assessment of the second choice would also apply to APT. It would also be relevant to LISP-ALT, which is based on a rejection of the idea of local query servers in favour of a global query server network. Your assessment of the third choice would also be relevant to all the other core-edge separation schemes - which are based on the assumption (which has never been properly debated) that real-time mapping distribution is either impossible or undesirable. As far as I know, you can easily do this by Monday night. However, by Monday night there's no way I can provide the RRG with all the critiques I am most keen to write. In the absence of a sudden flurry of other people offering to critique TIDR and LISP, I request that you and Lixia extend the deadline. I also want to contribute to the critiques of Name Based Sockets and ILNP before the deadline and plan to write something about all the other proposals before the final decision-making process begins. - Robin From rw@firstpr.com.au Sat Jan 16 18:35:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8AF3A679C for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:35:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.716 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.716 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.310, BAYES_05=-1.11, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pa+m-JWJJNas for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4702E3A6405 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93E0175C9A; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:35:29 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B527773.8000709@firstpr.com.au> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:35:31 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> <1263629903.3110.1.camel@bit> <4B5178DD.3060201@firstpr.com.au> <4B520684.3000801@tony.li> In-Reply-To: <4B520684.3000801@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 02:35:35 -0000 Hi Tony, Thanks for this: > We have no objections to adding updated critiques, if and when > those become available or choosing an alternate critique if one is > presented. > > In other words, "incorporated" is not necessarily a final state. Regards - Robin From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Sun Jan 17 19:31:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5093A683C for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DaxAnbbImpga for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B88E3A6836 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AF739E80FA; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yAhmg7ztbgLA; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5670B39E80F5; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <899A9D2B-F5A8-455B-A7C5-7EBC018E9A4B@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: Robin Whittle In-Reply-To: <4B5178DD.3060201@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:31:45 -0800 References: <1263565713.3715.31.camel@bit> <4B516AF4.7040807@tony.li> <4B5173F0.2010100@firstpr.com.au> <4B51752E.6060207@tony.li> <1263629903.3110.1.camel@bit> <4B5178DD.3060201@firstpr.com.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: Routing Research Group Mailing List Subject: Re: [rrg] Analysis of name-based sockets (with attachment) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 03:31:55 -0000 On Jan 16, 2010, at 12:29 AM, Robin Whittle wrote: > Hi Tony and Javier, > > Thanks for your replies. > > My understanding is that one or more people can write a critique and > post it to the list. Then other people can suggest improvements, > which the original author(s) may or may not incorporate to the > satisfaction of the second person. > > Second and subsequent individuals or groups can contribute > alternative critiques by posting them to the list - and Lixia and > Tony will choose one of them. > > I think this would be a good approach. In that case, I think that > whenever anyone posts a critique to the list, that it should not be > immediately "incorporated". > > - Robin Robin, it seems to me that Tony's suggestion is the best, i.e. people who want to contribute to the critique of the same proposal collaborate to finalize the critique, with the resulting critique that incorporate all main points. if we had to choose one among multiples, it is likely to miss some issues raised in the dropped writing. It is possible that people working on the same critique may not reach 100% agreement on all the issues, in that case the critique can just document such disagreements. Lixia From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Sun Jan 17 21:06:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177F93A688C for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.700, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BrQBBC5IYXNM for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE9E3A6849 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD3D39E8108; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:06:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zw2cFsdYE4pt; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:06:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F160139E80F8; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:06:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: Joel M. Halpern In-Reply-To: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:05:59 -0800 References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 05:06:12 -0000 I'm late catching up email. This critique is clearly written, though I do see one important issue that is missing, i.e. the one Robin tried to raise a few times: how to handle DNS server IP addresses. Let me try an example here: say that UCLA implemented ILNP, that would imply all DNS servers for UCLA.edue that are located on campus would have ILNP addresses, correct? But UCLA.edu also needs to put its NS RRs and glue RRs (IP addresses for NS RRs) on .edu servers, and I assume these glue RRs must be treated as traditional 16-byte IP6 addresses? (i.e. they are not subject to further interpretation/composition, a DNS resolver gets a glue RR and uses it directly to reach the DNS server) Then are we talking about an architecture with two types of IP6 addresses? My personal view is that this is not details, it shows that the design has a recursion: we need DNS to get IP addresses; we need IP addresses to reach DNS servers. Lixia On Jan 11, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Below is a 500 word critique of ILNP that Yakov Rekhter and I have > put together. I appreciated the comments that other folks sent > about ILNP. I apologize for not being able to adequately capture > all the concerns that were expressed to me. > > Yours, > Joel M. Halpern > > The primary issue for ILNP is how the deployment incentives and > benefits line up with the RRG goal of reducing the rate of growth of > entries and churn in the core routing table. If a site is currently > using PI space, it can only stop advertising that space when the > entire site is ILNP capable. This needs at least clear elucidation of > the incentives for ILNP which are not related to routing scaling, in > order for there to be a path for this to address the RRG needs. > Similarly, the incentives for upgrading hosts need to align with the > value for those hosts. > > A closely related question is whether this mechanism actually > addresses the sites need for PI addresses. Assuming ILNP is deployed, > the site does achieve flexible, resilient, communication using all of > its Internet connections. While the proposal address the host updates > when the host learns of provider changes, there are other aspects of > provider change that are not addressed. This includes renumbering > router, subnets, and certain servers. (It is presumed that most > servers, once the entire site has moved to ILNP, will not be concerned > if their locator changes. However, some servers must have known > locators, such as the DNS server.) The issues described in > draft-carpenter-renum-needs-work-04 will be ameliorated, but not > resolved. To be able to adopt this proposal, and have sites use it, > we need to address these issues. When a site changes points of > attachment only a small amount of DNS provisioning should be required. > The LP record is apparently intended to help with this. It is also > likely that the use of dynamic DNS will help this. > > The ILNP mechanism is described as being suitable for use in > conjunction with mobility. This raises the question of race > conditions. To the degree that mobility concerns are valid at this > time, it is worth asking how communication can be established if a > node is sufficiently mobile that it is moving faster than the DNS > update and DNS fetch cycle can effectively propagate changes. > > This proposal does presume that all communication using this mechanism > is tied to DNS names. while it is true that most communication does > start from a DNS name, it is not the case that all exchanges have this > property. Some communication initiation and referral can be done with > an explicit I/L pair. This does appear to require some extensions to > the existing mechanism (for both sides adding locators). In general, > some additional clarity on the assumptions regarding DNS, particularly > for low end devices, would seem appropriate. > > One issue that this proposal shares with many others is the question > of how to determine which locator pairs (local and remote) are > actually functional. This is an issue both for initial communications > establishment, and for robustly maintaining communication. While it > is likely that a combination of monitoring of traffic (in the host, > where this is tractable), coupled with other active measures, can > address this. ICMP is clearly insufficient. > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Sun Jan 17 23:07:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8AD3A6A84 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.459 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.459 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.140, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OUkDSNzl+0uk for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54303A6A82 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F2539E80F8 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5NRTBYrNXIM for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E2E939E810F for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:07:27 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: [rrg] finally: all submitted proposals on RRG wiki X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:07:37 -0000 much delayed, I added the pointers on wiki, partly for my own convenience to look over and compare proposals: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/RoutingResearchGroup I first tried to collect all the pointers myself then I recalled Robin's summary msg on 12/23, I just turned that to wiki format and added RANGER. Thanks Robin! Let me know if I made any mistakes. Lixia From tony.li@tony.li Sun Jan 17 23:24:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C733A69FE for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:24:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.363, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9xnwV-J-Gpv for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6213A3A63C9 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.44]) by qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WvNH1d0060x6nqcADvQGHT; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:24:16 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WvQF1d0033L8a8Q8YvQFqN; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: <4B540C9F.5050503@tony.li> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:24:15 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lixia Zhang References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:24:19 -0000 Lixia Zhang wrote: > I'm late catching up email. > This critique is clearly written, though I do see one important issue > that is missing, i.e. the one Robin tried to raise a few times: how to > handle DNS server IP addresses. > > Let me try an example here: say that UCLA implemented ILNP, that would > imply all DNS servers for UCLA.edue that are located on campus would > have ILNP addresses, correct? > But UCLA.edu also needs to put its NS RRs and glue RRs (IP addresses for > NS RRs) on .edu servers, and I assume these glue RRs must be treated as > traditional 16-byte IP6 addresses? (i.e. they are not subject to further > interpretation/composition, a DNS resolver gets a glue RR and uses it > directly to reach the DNS server) > > Then are we talking about an architecture with two types of IP6 addresses? > > My personal view is that this is not details, it shows that the design > has a recursion: we need DNS to get IP addresses; we need IP addresses > to reach DNS servers. Perhaps some clarification is necessary, but the basics are quite sane: All systems would get IPv6 addresses. This is absolutely necessary for backward compatibility. ILNP nodes would ALSO get I and L records. DNS delegations today already (necessarily) do delegations on an address (not FQDN) basis to avoid just this recursion. Clearly, this already works for IPv4. It allegedly works for IPv6, tho I can't vouch for that. ;-) ILNP does not change this model significantly. Perhaps the only thing that would be useful is to have an API knob (socket option) that allows an application (i.e., DNS) to bypass ILNP and operate in legacy v6 mode. Is this clear enough? Tony From francis@mpi-sws.org Mon Jan 18 02:44:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9593A686C for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:44:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8STeCVMpLYW for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de (infao0809.mpi-sb.mpg.de [139.19.1.49]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E50C3A6819 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:44:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mpi-sb.mpg.de; s=mail200803; h=To:MIME-Version:Subject:From: Message-ID:Date:Content-Type; bh=r2/9iSn3fSYYV7d4O17Jx6+pWAB4hqF 6K79decf3fXk=; b=aWnpiQGWpzhPW6brZeFW9HFNCtFwbFkiwW/HB40j1ufPg9O XoJ6UrLIVjmYTmwHL53bth/dhuVRN4eEypTI+XZbP6T9j3kX8M9qlEsbOZQrspuW uYOWmMZF1Dse1k+MypAetRdB43kYbJyY1Mv3vLQ/HdSxFywUlhYtgWp1z7Hs= Received: from infao0517.mpi-sb.mpg.de ([139.19.3.118]:3503 helo=mikado.mpi-inf.mpg.de) by hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de (envelope-from ) with esmtp (Exim 4.69) id 1NWp6E-00058K-3b for rrg@irtf.org; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:44:49 +0100 To: RRG MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 2E0E0DDB:F9F43A36-C12576AF:003AED44; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1 September 28, 2009 From: Paul Francis Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 11:44:45 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on mikado/MPII/DE(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 01/18/2010 11:44:46 AM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 003B0358C12576AF_=" Subject: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:44:55 -0000 --=_mixed 003B0358C12576AF_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi Gang, I've attached a critique of RANGI. PF --=_mixed 003B0358C12576AF_= Content-Type: text/plain; name="rangi-critique.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rangi-critique.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RANGI critique, by Paul Francis RANGI is an ID/locator split protocol that, like HIP, places a cryptographi= cally signed ID between the network layer (IPv6) and transport. Unlike the= HIP ID, the RANGI ID has a hierarchical structure that allows it to suppor= t ID->locator lookups. I think this adequately addresses two major weaknes= ses of the flat HIP ID: first the difficulty of doing the ID->locator look= up, and second the administrative scalability of doing firewall filtering o= n flat IDs. This hierarchy is overloaded in that it serves to at least mak= e the ID unique and to drive the lookup process, and possibly other things = like firewall filtering. More thought is needed as to what constitutes the= se levels, and how flexible this should be. The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately an ID-= >locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. I think it woul= d be better if the FQDN lookup produces both ID and locators, and that it i= s sufficient that the ID->locator lookup be DNS. RANGI provides strong sender identification, but at the cost of computing c= rypto. Many hosts (public web servers) may prefer to forgo the crypto at t= he expense of losing some functionality (receiver mobility or dynamic multi= home load balance). While RANGI doesn't require that the receiver validate= the sender, it may be good to have a mechanism whereby the receiver can si= gnal to the sender that it is not validating, so that the sender can avoid = locator changes. I think that architecturally it is best to put the mapping function at the = end host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness and = delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. Unfortunat= ely the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me as weak at best= (though to be fair, I don't see a strong incentive for ANY of the RRG prop= osals). RANGI suffers from the mobility race condition (there is no mention of a ho= me-agent like device), though my personal opinion is that host-to-host noti= fication combined with fallback on the ID->locators lookup (assuming adequa= te dynamic update of the lookup system) is good enough for the vast majorit= y of mobility situations. RANGI specifies the use of proxies to deal with both "legacy IPv6" (that ga= ve me a chuckle) and IPv4 sites. RANGI proxies have no mechanisms to deal = with the edge-to-edge aliveness problem. The edge-to-edge proxy approach d= irties-up an otherwise clean end-to-end model. =20 RANGI exploits existing IPv6 transition technologies (ISATAP and softwires)= , but it seems to me that these transition issues are orthogonal and don't = need to be specified in RANGI drafts per se. RANGI only need address deali= ng with legacy IPv6, which it appears to do adequately well. --=_mixed 003B0358C12576AF_=-- From jmh@joelhalpern.com Mon Jan 18 06:08:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0723A68E0 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:08:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.745 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.745 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.545, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fweiMX07wENY for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.mail.tigertech.net (hermes.mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909EE3A68AB for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD084303A3; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:08:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hermes.tigertech.net Received: from [10.10.10.102] (pool-71-161-52-240.clppva.btas.verizon.net [71.161.52.240]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F949430391; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:08:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B546B67.1060806@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:08:39 -0500 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lixia Zhang References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:08:43 -0000 It seems pretty obvious that you handle DNS addresses just the way you do today. You configure the client (either directly, or via DHCP, or ...) with the I/L pairs of the DNS servers. Since DNS transactions are short, the client simply uses each one as a server individually, and does not try any address agility or other fancy techniques. Yes, this should be written down. But it is not hard, nor complicated, and it certainly doesn't lead to recursion. It does mean that, just as today, if the DNS server one is using gets renumbered, the configuration information has to get changed. Well, it is pretty hard not to need that anyway. For any mapping system, the mapping data requester has to avoid using the mapping system to find the mapping system. Yours, Joel PS: If you and Tony want to relax the 500 word limit, I am happy to add a small discussion of the need for more clarity on this issue. But given the word limit, I felt I needed to focus on things that had more impact. Lixia Zhang wrote: > I'm late catching up email. > This critique is clearly written, though I do see one important issue > that is missing, i.e. the one Robin tried to raise a few times: how to > handle DNS server IP addresses. > > Let me try an example here: say that UCLA implemented ILNP, that would > imply all DNS servers for UCLA.edue that are located on campus would > have ILNP addresses, correct? > But UCLA.edu also needs to put its NS RRs and glue RRs (IP addresses for > NS RRs) on .edu servers, and I assume these glue RRs must be treated as > traditional 16-byte IP6 addresses? (i.e. they are not subject to further > interpretation/composition, a DNS resolver gets a glue RR and uses it > directly to reach the DNS server) > > Then are we talking about an architecture with two types of IP6 addresses? > > My personal view is that this is not details, it shows that the design > has a recursion: we need DNS to get IP addresses; we need IP addresses > to reach DNS servers. > > Lixia > > On Jan 11, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >> Below is a 500 word critique of ILNP that Yakov Rekhter and I have put >> together. I appreciated the comments that other folks sent about >> ILNP. I apologize for not being able to adequately capture all the >> concerns that were expressed to me. >> >> Yours, >> Joel M. Halpern >> >> The primary issue for ILNP is how the deployment incentives and >> benefits line up with the RRG goal of reducing the rate of growth of >> entries and churn in the core routing table. If a site is currently >> using PI space, it can only stop advertising that space when the >> entire site is ILNP capable. This needs at least clear elucidation of >> the incentives for ILNP which are not related to routing scaling, in >> order for there to be a path for this to address the RRG needs. >> Similarly, the incentives for upgrading hosts need to align with the >> value for those hosts. >> >> A closely related question is whether this mechanism actually >> addresses the sites need for PI addresses. Assuming ILNP is deployed, >> the site does achieve flexible, resilient, communication using all of >> its Internet connections. While the proposal address the host updates >> when the host learns of provider changes, there are other aspects of >> provider change that are not addressed. This includes renumbering >> router, subnets, and certain servers. (It is presumed that most >> servers, once the entire site has moved to ILNP, will not be concerned >> if their locator changes. However, some servers must have known >> locators, such as the DNS server.) The issues described in >> draft-carpenter-renum-needs-work-04 will be ameliorated, but not >> resolved. To be able to adopt this proposal, and have sites use it, >> we need to address these issues. When a site changes points of >> attachment only a small amount of DNS provisioning should be required. >> The LP record is apparently intended to help with this. It is also >> likely that the use of dynamic DNS will help this. >> >> The ILNP mechanism is described as being suitable for use in >> conjunction with mobility. This raises the question of race >> conditions. To the degree that mobility concerns are valid at this >> time, it is worth asking how communication can be established if a >> node is sufficiently mobile that it is moving faster than the DNS >> update and DNS fetch cycle can effectively propagate changes. >> >> This proposal does presume that all communication using this mechanism >> is tied to DNS names. while it is true that most communication does >> start from a DNS name, it is not the case that all exchanges have this >> property. Some communication initiation and referral can be done with >> an explicit I/L pair. This does appear to require some extensions to >> the existing mechanism (for both sides adding locators). In general, >> some additional clarity on the assumptions regarding DNS, particularly >> for low end devices, would seem appropriate. >> >> One issue that this proposal shares with many others is the question >> of how to determine which locator pairs (local and remote) are >> actually functional. This is an issue both for initial communications >> establishment, and for robustly maintaining communication. While it >> is likely that a combination of monitoring of traffic (in the host, >> where this is tractable), coupled with other active measures, can >> address this. ICMP is clearly insufficient. >> _______________________________________________ >> rrg mailing list >> rrg@irtf.org >> http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg > > From tony.li@tony.li Mon Jan 18 07:19:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D393A68E9 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:19:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kx88tZzA4kjO for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66B03A689D for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta19.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.76]) by qmta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id X1oV1d00A1eYJf8AB3JEu4; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:18:14 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.110] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta19.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id X3Jw1d00A3L8a8Q013Jw5D; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:18:57 +0000 Message-ID: <4B547BDF.7070006@tony.li> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:18:55 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Francis References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:19:00 -0000 Paul Francis wrote: > Hi Gang, > > I've attached a critique of RANGI. Received and incorporated. Tony From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Mon Jan 18 12:36:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E753A67FB for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.171, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NG9kab8sPY+B for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5166F3A67D8 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD5139E80F5; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p8ow5hQprPIG; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from Cs-32-21.CS.UCLA.EDU (Cs-32-21.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.32.21]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E74E39E80E0; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: Paul Francis In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:36:17 -0800 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:22 -0000 On Jan 18, 2010, at 2:44 AM, Paul Francis wrote: > Hi Gang, > > I've attached a critique of RANGI. > > PF > Hi Paul, I did not know that you were working on RANGI critique; as I mentioned to Xiaohu I could do one. So what I just did now is some minor additions to your text (1)pointing out that RAGNI ID is 24-byte long, (2)doing ID looking using DHT raises trust issue; (3)in routing scalability its scheme is similar to ILNP. see attached below, see you still agree with it. Xiaohu, please comment if I get any technical point wrong. Lixia -------- RANGI critique RANGI is an ID/locator split protocol that, like HIP, places a cryptographically signed ID between the network layer (IPv6) and transport. Unlike the HIP ID, the RANGI ID has a hierarchical structure that allows it to support ID->locator lookups. This hierarchical structure addresses two major weaknesses of the flat HIP ID: the difficulty of doing the ID->locator lookup, and the administrative scalability of doing firewall filtering on flat IDs. The usage of this hierarchy is overloaded: it serves to make the ID unique, to drive the lookup process, and possibly other things like firewall filtering. To accommodate the administrative hierarchy, RANGI ID is 24-byte long, which requires new implementation of protocol stacks on all hosts (in contrast to HIP's 16-byte ID which allows reuse of existing IP6 transport implementation). More thought is needed as to what constitutes these levels, and what is the trust relation among the ID-Locator resolution servers that use DHT for lookup. The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. This represents additional cost compared to ILNP design where FQDN lookup produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the gain by one additional lookup to justify the cost? RANGI provides strong sender identification, but at the cost of computing crypto. Many hosts (public web servers) may prefer to forgo the crypto at the expense of losing some functionality (receiver mobility or dynamic multihome load balance). While RANGI doesn't require that the receiver validate the sender, it may be good to have a mechanism whereby the receiver can signal to the sender that it is not validating, so that the sender can avoid locator changes. In terms of scaling the DFZ routing, RANGI's solution closely resembles that of ILNP based on locator rewrite at border routers. Architecturally it seems best to put the mapping function at the end host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness and delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me as weak at best. RANGI suffers from the mobility race condition (there is no mention of a home-agent like device), though my personal opinion is that host-to- host notification combined with fallback on the ID->locators lookup (assuming adequate dynamic update of the lookup system) is good enough for the vast majority of mobility situations. RANGI uses proxies to deal with both "legacy IPv6" and IPv4 sites. RANGI proxies have no mechanisms to deal with the edge-to-edge aliveness problem. The edge-to-edge proxy approach dirties-up an otherwise clean end-to-end model. RANGI exploits existing IPv6 transition technologies (ISATAP and softwire), but it seems to me that these transition issues are orthogonal and don't need to be specified in RANGI drafts per se. RANGI only need address dealing with legacy IPv6, which it appears to do adequately well. From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Mon Jan 18 12:42:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981753A67E2 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zPXZrUE27Jn6 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA27E3A67E1 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A919039E80F5 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Luyc2jsiSFKg for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Cs-32-21.CS.UCLA.EDU (Cs-32-21.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.32.21]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65EF939E80E0 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1DB9288E-DAB2-46DF-8273-1C8B852345D2@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:42:41 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: [rrg] collaboration on critiques X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:42:47 -0000 My behavior is like a typical academic who's trying to catch deadline at the very last min: my plan is to draft any many critiques as I can manage before today's deadline. The sure ones are: - working with Christian and Robin on an Ivip critique - make a RANGER critique - help with a critique on Sriram et. al's proposal. if anyone else are working on these critiques, let me know so we can at least swap text around trying to get the best combination before submission If anyone wants me to write a critique for his/her proposal, I can try one and send you for accuracy check Lixia From kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov Mon Jan 18 16:07:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6173A6864 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 62-xwqsoFweU for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.nist.gov (rimp2.nist.gov [129.6.16.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EC03A677C for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub1.nist.gov [129.6.18.96]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o0J07OhI017992; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:07:24 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::d479:3188:aec0:cb66]) by WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1260::8106:1260]) with mapi; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:07:23 -0500 From: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" To: "rrg@irtf.org" Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:07:09 -0500 Thread-Topic: [rrg] Summary of "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes" Thread-Index: AcqYDT73WDl2uN8VRgGbHy8cAHrP3QAit9Co Message-ID: References: , , <659C8BE0-58AB-4188-8CA2-BC04E64A032C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <659C8BE0-58AB-4188-8CA2-BC04E64A032C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov Subject: Re: [rrg] Summary of "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes" X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:07:38 -0000 I am forwarding some comments from Dino on the proposal=20 that I submitted to RRG. I have his permission to post them to this list. Dino and I had a several follow up emails between us. I will try to summarize them later for this list.=20 For now I am forwarding only his first email to me=20 with his detailed comments. The slides Dino is referring to are at: http://www.antd.nist.gov/~ksriram/MDP_Dublin_KS_Slides.pdf Sriram=20 ________________________________________ From: Dino Farinacci [dino@cisco.com] Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:09 AM To: Sriram, Kotikalapudi Subject: Re: [rrg] Summary of "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution= =20 Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes" Sorry for the delay. Here are my comments on the MDP slides. I hope it is okay I copied by LISP colleagues on this reply. Thanks. Slide 6, the problem itself. Sriram, I am not even convinced this is going to be a real problem. I do not know why a registry would allocate a more-specific when it already allocated a less-specific to another site. You tell me why you think that would be useful. Slide 7. In LISP-ALT, the Map-Request would follow the /24 site and not the /20 since they would both be in the mapping system. That is assuming a Map-Request is sent for an EID that matches the /24. If a site requested an EID that matched the /20, then yes, the re- encapsulating path would occur. But the mapping system, could indicate there are more specifics to the /20. Slide 9. Yes, the nature solution is to have the coarser site tell you about the more specifics. But I like to couch the problem this way: if cisco had the /20, you think it would want to provide resources for the /24s that belong to Juniper? So, I am not sure how this could work in the real world. Slide 11. So one case we, the LISP team, were worried about is the sheer number of more-specifics. What if a companies mobile-node EIDs came out of their corporate EID-prefix. Then the number of EIDs could be in the 10s of thousands. So a scheme that returns all more specifics is probably not a good idea. In the LISP -06 spec we indicate this but are hoping that the MNs come out of their own EID-prefix allocation which is made up of only /32s. Slide 15. Approach 2 is better but still may be too many entries for an ILM- R to store. Slide 17. If the more-specifics have a common width, and it is communicated to the ITR from the ILMs, then the ITR could see that a different, say /24 is being encapsulated and then send the Map-Request for it even though there is a /20 cached. So rather than saying there are more specifics, indicate what the mask-lengths are. We could have more than one as long as a small number. For IPv4, that number is pretty small but not for IPv6. Slide 23, this is a good idea. And we believe LISP can support this as specified. Thanks and nice concise work, Dino > _______________________________________ > From: Sriram, Kotikalapudi > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 10:44 PM > To: Lixia Zhang; rrg@irtf.org > Cc: Tony Li > Subject: Summary of "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution=20 > Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes" > > Lixia: > Tony: > > As you would remember, I had presented this work at Dublin RRG=20 > meeting. > I do not intend it to be a contribution for the mainstream set of=20 > proposals > for a solution for scalability. Also, it relates in part to making=20 > mapping distribution > more efficient -- I have followed some of the discussion about=20 > relevance of including > "mapping systems" between you, Michael Menth, Biran and others. > Well, this is not a proposal for a new type of "mapping system" > but it is about making map-and-encap (LISP type of) schemes > more efficient by suitable enhancements to the mapping distribution > protocol. There is a part of this proposal which deals with=20 > hierarchy of > locators (ETRs) for hierarchical map-and-encap schemes (there is=20 > some possible > conceptual overlap with the GLI-Split proposal). > > My main intent in submitting this proposal/document is for archival=20 > value. > As the RRG work moves further along, I would be happy if we can > revisit the ideas presented here. At that point, I would also plan=20 > to further assist > with more details and performance modeling of this proposal. > > Sriram > > Summary (980 words) follows. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------- > Summary of > "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols in Map-and- > Encap Schemes" > > We present some architectural principles pertaining to the mapping=20 > distribution protocols, especially applicable to map-and-encap=20 > (e.g., LISP) type of protocols. These principles enhance the=20 > efficiency of the map-and-encap protocols in terms of (1) better=20 > utilization of resources (e.g., processing and memory) at Ingress=20 > Tunnel Routers (ITRs) and mapping servers, and consequently, (2)=20 > reduction of response time (e.g., first packet delay). We consider=20 > how Egress Tunnel Routers (ETRs) can perform aggregation of end- > point ID (EID) address space belonging to their downstream delivery=20 > networks, in spite of migration/re-homing of some subprefixes to=20 > other ETRs. This aggregation may be useful for reducing the=20 > processing load and memory consumption associated with map messages,=20 > especially at some resource-constrained ITRs and subsystems of the=20 > mapping distribution system. We also consider another architectural=20 > concept where the ETRs are organized in a hierarchical manner for=20 > the poten > tial benefit of aggregation of their EID address spaces. The two key=20 > architectural ideas are discussed in some more detail below. A more=20 > complete description can be found in a document that was presented=20 > at the RRG meeting in Dublin. Links to the document and slides=20 > presented at Dublin RRG meeting are: > Document: > http://www.antd.nist.gov/~ksriram/NGRA_map_mgmt.pdf > Presentation slides: > http://www.antd.nist.gov/~ksriram/MDP_Dublin_KS_Slides.pdf > > It will be helpful to refer to Figures 1, 2, and 3 in the document=20 > noted above for some of the discussions that follow here below. > > A. Management of Mapping Distribution of Subprefixes Spread=20 > Across Multiple ETRs > > To assist in this discussion, we start with the high level=20 > architecture of a map-and-encap approach (it would be helpful to see=20 > Fig. 1 in the document mentioned above). In this architecture we=20 > have the usual ITRs, ETRs, delivery networks, etc. In addition, we=20 > have the ID-Locator Mapping (ILM) servers which are repositories for=20 > complete mapping information, while the ILM-Regional (ILM-R) servers=20 > can contain partial and/or regionally relevant mapping information. > > While a large endpoint address space contained in a prefix may be=20 > mostly associated with the delivery networks served by one ETR, some=20 > fragments (subprefixes) of that address space may be located=20 > elsewhere at other ETRs. Let a/20 denote a prefix that is=20 > conceptually viewed as composed of 16 subnets of /24 size that are=20 > denoted as a1/24, a2/24, :::, a16/24. For example, a/20 is mostly at=20 > ETR1, while only two of its subprefixes a8/24 and a15/24 are=20 > elsewhere at ETR3 and ETR2, respectively (see Fig. 2 in the=20 > document). From the point of view of efficiency of the mapping=20 > distribution protocol, it may be beneficial for ETR1 to announce a=20 > map for the entire space a/20 (rather than fragment it into a=20 > multitude of more-specific prefixes), and provide the necessary=20 > exceptions in the map information. Thus the map message could be in=20 > the form of Map:(a/20, ETR1; Exceptions: a8/24, a15/24). In=20 > addition, ETR2 and ETR3 announce the maps for a15/24 and a8/24,=20 > respectively, and so the ILMs k > now where the exception EID addresses are located. Now consider a=20 > host associated with ITR1 initiating a packet destined for an=20 > address a7(1), which is in a7/24 that is not in the exception=20 > portion of a/20. Now a question arises as to which of the following=20 > approaches would be the best choice: > > 1) ILM-R provides the complete mapping information for a/20 to ITR1=20 > including all maps for relevant exception subprefixes. > 2) ILM-R provides only the directly relevant map to ITR1 which in=20 > this case is (a/20, ETR1). > > In the first approach, the advantage is that ITR1 would have the=20 > complete mapping for a/20 (including exception subnets), and it=20 > would not have to generate queries for subsequent first packets that=20 > are destined to any address in a/20, including a8/24 and a15/24.=20 > However, the disadvantage is that if there is a significant number=20 > of exception subprefixes, then the very first packet destined for a/ > 20 will experience a long delay, and also the processors at ITR1 and=20 > ILM-R can experience overload. In addition, the memory usage at ITR1=20 > can be very inefficient as well. The advantage of the second=20 > approach above is that the ILM-R does not overload resources at ITR1=20 > both in terms of processing and memory usage but it needs an=20 > enhanced map response in of the form Map:(a/20, ETR1, MS=3D1), where=20 > MS (more specific) indicator is set to 1 to indicate to ITR1 that=20 > not all subnets in a/20 map to ETR1. The key idea is that=20 > aggregation is beneficial and subnet exceptions must be handled with=20 > add > itional messages or indicators in the maps. > > B. Management of Mapping Distribution for Scenarios with Hierarchy=20 > of ETRs and Multi-Homing > > Now we highlight another architectural concept related to mapping=20 > management (helpful here to refer to Fig. 3 in the document). Here=20 > we consider the possibility that ETRs may be organized in a=20 > hierarchical manner. For instance ETR7 is higher in hierarchy=20 > relative to ETR1, ETR2, and ETR3, and like-wise ETR8 is higher=20 > relative to ETR4, ETR5, and ETR6. For instance, ETRs 1 through 3 can=20 > relegate locator role to ETR7 for their EID address space. In=20 > essence, they can allow ETR7 to act as the locator for the delivery=20 > networks in their purview. ETR7 keeps a local mapping table for=20 > mapping the appropriate EID address space to specific ETRs that are=20 > hierarchically associated with it in the level below. In this=20 > situation, ETR7 can perform EID address space aggregation across=20 > ETRs 1 through 3 and can also include its own immediate EID address=20 > space for the purpose of that aggregation. The many details related=20 > to this approach and special circumstances involving multi-homing of=20 > subnets a > re discussed in detail in the detailed document noted earlier. The=20 > hierarchical organization of ETRs and delivery networks should help=20 > in the future growth and scalability of ETRs and mapping=20 > distribution networks. This is essentially recursive map-and-encap,=20 > and some of the mapping distribution and management functionality=20 > will remain local to topologically neighboring delivery networks=20 > which are hierarchically underneath ETRs. From xuxh@huawei.com Mon Jan 18 18:48:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E180A3A69E9 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.911 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.383, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XRgVN69X4kr7 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A153A69CC for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWH006043RQI0@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:47:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWH006Y63RQYW@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:47:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from HUAWEIE75F8F11 ([10.111.13.9]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KWH008613RP84@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:47:50 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:47:51 +0800 From: Xu Xiaohu In-reply-to: To: 'Lixia Zhang' , 'Paul Francis' Message-id: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcqYfe22DzWo7AUqRn2N5TxI+m+4NQAJcUIg Cc: 'RRG' Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:48:06 -0000 Hi Lixia and Paul, Thanks for your valuable critiques. My responses are in line. > -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: rrg-bounces@irtf.org [mailto:rrg-bounces@irtf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Lixia Zhang > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA1=D4=C219=C8=D5 4:36 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Paul Francis > =B3=AD=CB=CD: RRG > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI >=20 >=20 > On Jan 18, 2010, at 2:44 AM, Paul Francis wrote: >=20 > > Hi Gang, > > > > I've attached a critique of RANGI. > > > > PF > > >=20 > Hi Paul, >=20 > I did not know that you were working on RANGI critique; as I mentioned > to Xiaohu I could do one. > So what I just did now is some minor additions to your text > (1)pointing out that RAGNI ID is 24-byte long,=20 No, RANGI ID is 16-byte long. The following is a demonstration of the = RANGI ID. |<------- n bits --------->|<-- 128-n bits-->| +--------------------------+-----------------+ =20 | Administrative Domain ID | Local Host ID | =20 +--------------------------+-----------------+ =20 | \ =20 | \ =20 | \ =20 | \ =20 | \ =20 +-----------+-------------+-------------+ =20 | Country ID| Authority ID| Region ID | <------Example =20 +-----------+-------------+-------------+ =20 =20 (2)doing ID looking > using DHT raises trust issue;=20 In fact, we use the reverse DNS infrastructure as the id/locator mapping system, while the DHT is optionally used at the bottom level of this infrastructure to make the authoritative server scale better. This is my assumption of a hierarchical DHT. IMHO, the hierarchical DHT doesn't = mean DHT should be used in each level. The structured AD ID is used as a key in the reverse DNS infrastructure = to locate the corresponding super authoritative server (or the = corresponding DHT ring when using DHT to make the authoritative server scale better) = which maintains mappings for the identifiers belonging to that Administration Domain. If DHT is used to scale the authoritative server, the Local Host = ID (flat label) is then used as a key in that corresponding DHT ring to = locate the node which holds the mapping for that identifier. Hence, this = mapping system has reasonable business model and clear trust boundaries. (3)in routing scalability its scheme is > similar to ILNP. > see attached below, see you still agree with it. > Xiaohu, please comment if I get any technical point wrong. >=20 > Lixia > -------- >=20 > RANGI critique >=20 > RANGI is an ID/locator split protocol that, like HIP, places a > cryptographically signed ID between the network layer (IPv6) and > transport. Unlike the HIP ID, the RANGI ID has a hierarchical > structure that allows it to support ID->locator lookups. This > hierarchical structure addresses two major weaknesses of the flat HIP > ID: the difficulty of doing the ID->locator lookup, and the > administrative scalability of doing firewall filtering on flat IDs. > The usage of this hierarchy is overloaded: it serves to make the ID > unique, to drive the lookup process, and possibly other things like > firewall filtering. To accommodate the administrative hierarchy, RANGI > ID is 24-byte long, which requires new implementation of protocol > stacks on all hosts (in contrast to HIP's 16-byte ID which allows > reuse of existing IP6 transport implementation). =20 No. RANGI host identifier is a 16-byte long label. Please see the above statement. > More thought is > needed as to what constitutes these levels, and what is the trust > relation among the ID-Locator resolution servers that use DHT for > lookup. >=20 > The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately > an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. This Yes, the reverse DNS is used as an ID->locator mapping system in RANGI, = with this approach there is no need for every host to have a unique FQDN. > represents additional cost compared to ILNP design where FQDN lookup > produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the gain by one > additional lookup to justify the cost? Yes, I know. However, ILNP design requires that every host should have a unique FQDN for ID and locator lookup.=20 > RANGI provides strong sender identification, but at the cost of > computing crypto. Many hosts (public web servers) may prefer to forgo > the crypto at the expense of losing some functionality (receiver > mobility or dynamic multihome load balance). While RANGI doesn't > require that the receiver validate the sender, it may be good to have > a mechanism whereby the receiver can signal to the sender that it is > not validating, so that the sender can avoid locator changes. OK, I will consider it. > In terms of scaling the DFZ routing, RANGI's solution closely > resembles that of ILNP based on locator rewrite at border routers. In fact, ID/locator split is the key to solve the routing scalability = issue. For a host located in a multi-home site, multiple PA locators will be allocated to it. Then the host could choose one as the source locator = (i.e., the source address in the IPv6 header) of the outgoing packet. Upon receiving the above packet, the border router needs to perform = source-based policy routing. As for rewriting the source locator of the outgoing packets by the = border router, it is used to realize the site-controlled traffic-engineering. That's to say, the source host could suggest the upstream ISP path by = using the locator from that ISP as source locator, while the border router has = the final decision on the path selection since it could rewrite the source locator of the outgoing packets before performing source-based policy routing. > Architecturally it seems best to put the mapping function at the end > host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness and > delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. Yes, the above are the major reasons why the mapping function is put on = the end hosts in RANGI. > Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me > as weak at best. We have the RANGI-PROXY [I-D.draft-xu-rangi-proxy-01] mechanisms with = which legacy hosts could initiate communications to RANGI-aware hosts, and = vice verse. > RANGI suffers from the mobility race condition (there is no mention of > a home-agent like device), though my personal opinion is that host-to- > host notification combined with fallback on the ID->locators lookup > (assuming adequate dynamic update of the lookup system) is good enough > for the vast majority of mobility situations. In the RANGI-PROXY draft, there is some description about the transit = proxy which is a home-agent like device. For more details, please see the = section 2.2 of [RANGI-PROXY] "Communication between IPv6 and RANGI hosts without Site Proxy". > RANGI uses proxies to deal with both "legacy IPv6" and IPv4 sites. > RANGI proxies have no mechanisms to deal with the edge-to-edge > aliveness problem. The edge-to-edge proxy approach dirties-up an > otherwise clean end-to-end model. Yes, the edge-to-edge aliveness issue should be explored in the latter revision. > RANGI exploits existing IPv6 transition technologies (ISATAP and > softwire), but it seems to me that these transition issues are > orthogonal and don't need to be specified in RANGI drafts per se. > RANGI only need address dealing with legacy IPv6, which it appears to > do adequately well. Sound reasonable. I will consider it in the latter revision. Thanks to your insightful comments, again. Best wishes, Xiaohu > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg From charriesun@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 19:13:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AFB3A6A10 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:13:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fSJtokgiXZUf for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.221.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4893A6A0D for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so2115800qyk.7 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:13:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=57A6vOB4ceHcWtMCegZZNPs8VJH+kJUuUNmm/+Mz0hg=; b=T8P1kTvircy2TGYsYnX+CpcptNSw2dnObF8ERABddKtHZ8VgC6DE3Ne83MyANpcs2N uloUlt6IzSDgifrAQWQ1IYPeN7lITcoAv/mfKKj9uCAg3DIzbCYM/LMHr6DXGn3FKfCG gJiL/q6zK0E1HApqVnvEB2nsTLdS43i+vos68= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=ZazkqtZJA3sfQsRREyFTlpUI2XxpvMINCA9WP4Py/ySaNOQCJa4sUpzN0A4UGevKoz IDE5UTL+VyqOZl7IgRSI1SIBbwYYRnfLhaoMzuTFGIp/LmxfY/3rTLd3sSfnIiKmmswZ yjmxlw011GjfAg4MOuKJAYBKIpRA9/EuUIILo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.122.170 with SMTP id l42mr2383444vcr.33.1263870797710; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:13:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:13:17 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: RRG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001636b14cbef08537047d7bd912 Subject: [rrg] Critique of LMS and GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:13:43 -0000 --001636b14cbef08537047d7bd912 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b14cbef0852e047d7bd910 --001636b14cbef0852e047d7bd910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello all, Since no one has written a critique of my LMS, I queried my workmates and wrote a critique on it. As many people have pointed out, LMS is a mapping mechanism and does not itself constitute a whole solution for the scalability problem. Well the mechanism is based on edge-core separations and can incorparate with proposals that need a global mapping system, to enhance its functionalities. I also wrote a brief critique on GLI-Split, since I think the two separation planes it clarifies, including the separation between identifier and locator and the separation between local and global locator, can meet different needs of ISPs and hosts. I had some discussions with Dr. Menth and wrote the critique based on the discussions and rethinking. Welcome for complement and rectifications on mine. Attached is my critiques and warmly welcome for comments. Best wishes, Sun Letong --001636b14cbef0852e047d7bd910 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hello all,
    Since no one has written a critique of my LMS, I qu= eried my workmates and wrote a critique on it. As many people have poi= nted out, LMS is a mapping mec= hanism and does not itself constitute a whole solution for the scalabi= lity problem. Well the mechanism is based on edge-core separations and= can incorparate with proposals that need a global mapping system, to&= nbsp;enhance its functionalities. 
    I also wrote a brief critique on GLI-Sp= lit, since I think the two separation planes it clarifies, including the separation between identifier and loc= ator and the separation between local and global locator, can meet dif= ferent needs of ISPs and hosts. I had some discussions with = Dr. Menth and wrote the critique based on the discussions and rethinking. W= elcome for complement and rectifications on mine.
   Attached is my critiques and warmly welcom= e for comments.
 
Best wishes,
Sun Letong
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2010 19:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.221.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5063A6A1B for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so2121367qyk.7 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:27:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1xV77m86NtF2DM7gQsEDbWsKOBpBJ2SZqUu5wTrOW34=; b=e46kc4EKf4xXOIy2qLYtsPKg2+IFnNF3bjEVP4XJeqLFE6y5pwd29BeefqVpRaQPYC 2Dj4Wyhp+78PV5Z1QhJGl8voqgdDhyghtGAjoN9+uXbj9BpG0ETI7m5R64GjR1dLbZlF iUevLOf/yODW3nz11+S9lEFYGRa8Uq5zMiY2o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Z6hu9jtOMttE+6GwM/YOmnOX6YqZIVLt6kWiqecZgSp0GONJNBbg+Sz6z4m/VlWE6c fPcm2Q4VmlcEeize6Gqt4RqWS+uSX2G9ZvN+1M18oPNMpLG8JbMr86Du3P+3Ckl15GF0 GKq0hI2Yr7ShPyt7Wap0rKnweYbrYfjW1k/wY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.122.19 with SMTP id j19mr2299114vcr.108.1263871662798; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:27:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:27:42 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: RRG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001636cd750580b937047d7c0d2f Subject: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:27:48 -0000 --001636cd750580b937047d7c0d2f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636cd750580b92e047d7c0d2d --001636cd750580b92e047d7c0d2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Here is the .txt version. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Charrie Sun Date: 2010/1/19 Subject: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split To: RRG Hello all, Since no one has written a critique of my LMS, I queried my workmates and wrote a critique on it. As many people have pointed out, LMS is a mapping mechanism and does not itself constitute a whole solution for the scalability problem. Well the mechanism is based on edge-core separations and can incorparate with proposals that need a global mapping system, to enhance its functionalities. I also wrote a brief critique on GLI-Split, since I think the two separation planes it clarifies, including the separation between identifier and locator and the separation between local and global locator, can meet different needs of ISPs and hosts. I had some discussions with Dr. Menth and wrote the critique based on the discussions and rethinking. Welcome for complement and rectifications on mine. Attached is my critiques and warmly welcome for comments. Best wishes, Sun Letong --001636cd750580b92e047d7c0d2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the .txt version.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:= Charrie Sun <charriesun@gmail.com>
Da= te: 2010/1/19
Subject: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split
To: RRG <rrg@irtf.org>


=A0
Hello all,
=A0=A0=A0 Since no one has written a critique of my LMS, I queried my = workmates and wrote a critique on it.=A0As many people have pointed out,=A0= LMS is a mapping mechani= sm and does not itself constitute a=A0whole solution for the scalability pr= oblem.=A0Well the mechanism is based on edge-core separations and can incor= parate with=A0proposals that need a global mapping system, to=A0enhance its= functionalities.=A0
=A0=A0=A0 I also wrote a brief crit= ique on GLI-Split, since I think the two separation planes it clarifies, in= cluding the separation b= etween identifier and locator and=A0the separation between local and global= locator, can meet different needs=A0of=A0ISPs and hosts. I had some discus= sions with=A0Dr. Menth and wrote the critique based on the discussions and = rethinking. Welcome for complement and rectifications on mine.
=A0=A0 Attached is my=A0critiques and warml= y=A0welcome for comments.
=A0
Best wishes,
Sun Letong

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Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:22:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <022A5FA0-484C-4437-BAC8-CDBCEB131E5A@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: Xu Xiaohu In-Reply-To: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:22:51 -0800 References: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:23:00 -0000 On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Xu Xiaohu wrote: >> ..... >> Hi Paul, >> >> I did not know that you were working on RANGI critique; as I >> mentioned >> to Xiaohu I could do one. >> So what I just did now is some minor additions to your text >> (1)pointing out that RAGNI ID is 24-byte long, > > No, RANGI ID is 16-byte long. The following is a demonstration of > the RANGI > ID. > > |<------- n bits --------->|<-- 128-n bits-->| > +--------------------------+-----------------+ > | Administrative Domain ID | Local Host ID | > +--------------------------+-----------------+ > | \ > | \ > | \ > | \ > | \ > +-----------+-------------+-------------+ > | Country ID| Authority ID| Region ID | <------Example > +-----------+-------------+-------------+ sorry, I missed the "-n" fine print :( In your RRG presentation at Hiroshima, the slide says n=64. if that is still the case, then your local hostID would have the same length as ILNP EID (though the latter requires global uniqueness, and I suppose yours not) > (2)doing ID looking >> using DHT raises trust issue; > > In fact, we use the reverse DNS infrastructure as the id/locator > mapping > system, while the DHT is optionally used at the bottom level of this > infrastructure to make the authoritative server scale better. The Hiroshima RRG talk showed the other way around ... > This is my > assumption of a hierarchical DHT. IMHO, the hierarchical DHT doesn't > mean > DHT should be used in each level. DHT is used for lookups for systems with very large number of entries. With a hierarchical system, where the bottom level is not that big, I wonder what is the value of using DHT in the first place. I did not following the first sentence below (what do you mean by using "AD ID as a key"?) > The structured AD ID is used as a key in the reverse DNS > infrastructure to > locate the corresponding super authoritative server (or the > corresponding > DHT ring when using DHT to make the authoritative server scale > better) which > maintains mappings for the identifiers belonging to that > Administration > Domain. If DHT is used to scale the authoritative server, the Local > Host ID > (flat label) is then used as a key in that corresponding DHT ring to > locate > the node which holds the mapping for that identifier. Hence, this > mapping > system has reasonable business model and clear trust boundaries. Wonder if you have this described somewhere? I did not find it in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-xu-rangi-01.txt >> ..... >> RANGI critique >> ...... >> More thought is >> needed as to what constitutes these levels, and what is the trust >> relation among the ID-Locator resolution servers that use DHT for >> lookup. >> >> The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately >> an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. >> This > > Yes, the reverse DNS is used as an ID->locator mapping system in > RANGI, with > this approach there is no need for every host to have a unique FQDN. this sounds like as if having a FQDN for each host a drawback? >> represents additional cost compared to ILNP design where FQDN lookup >> produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the gain by one >> additional lookup to justify the cost? > > Yes, I know. However, ILNP design requires that every host should > have a > unique FQDN for ID and locator lookup. could you elaborate what may be the problem with this as you see? > ..... > >> Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me >> as weak at best. > > We have the RANGI-PROXY [I-D.draft-xu-rangi-proxy-01] mechanisms > with which > legacy hosts could initiate communications to RANGI-aware hosts, and > vice > verse. Is it fair to say that RANGI-PROXY is a similar idea to LISP's PTRs? I am trying to identify commonalities among proposals. Lixia From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Mon Jan 18 20:36:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021B83A683B for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5SUv4+XRDACq for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E64D3A692B for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FDC39E80DF for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4U5R4I1iVQ9e for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0EE7F39E80B1 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <40CC821E-E1B7-44F0-8332-3129862DE39A@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:36:10 -0800 References: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:36:18 -0000 based on Xiaohu's comments here is a revision to fix the minor technical errors I made earlier (I want to get it right because Tony will incorporate into the collection) Lixia PS: going through the text I realized the phrase "using DNS reverse lookup" is a bit misleading -- it is NOT about lookup from IP address to DNS names as the phrase literally means. ----------------- RANGI critique RANGI is an ID/locator split protocol that, like HIP, places a cryptographically signed ID between the network layer (IPv6) and transport. Unlike the HIP ID, the RANGI ID has a hierarchical structure that allows it to support ID->locator lookups. This hierarchical structure addresses two weaknesses of the flat HIP ID: the difficulty of doing the ID->locator lookup, and the administrative scalability of doing firewall filtering on flat IDs. The usage of this hierarchy is overloaded: it serves to make the ID unique, to drive the lookup process, and possibly other things like firewall filtering. RANGI ID uses 8-byte for the administrative hierarchy. More thought is needed as to what constitutes these levels, the use of "DNS reverse lookup" vs DHT for the ID-Locator resolution and their relations to administrative boundaries. The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. This represents additional cost compared to ILNP design where FQDN lookup produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the gain by one additional lookup to justify the cost? RANGI provides strong sender identification, but at the cost of computing crypto. Many hosts (public web servers) may prefer to forgo the crypto at the expense of losing some functionality (receiver mobility or dynamic multihome load balance). While RANGI doesn't require that the receiver validate the sender, it may be good to have a mechanism whereby the receiver can signal to the sender that it is not validating, so that the sender can avoid locator changes. In terms of scaling the DFZ routing, RANGI's solution closely resembles that of ILNP based on locator rewrite at border routers. Architecturally it seems best to put the mapping function at the end host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness and delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me as weak at best. RANGI suffers from the mobility race condition (there is no mention of a home-agent like device), though my personal opinion is that host-to- host notification combined with fallback on the ID->locators lookup (assuming adequate dynamic update of the lookup system) is good enough for the vast majority of mobility situations. RANGI uses proxies to deal with both "legacy IPv6" and IPv4 sites. RANGI proxies have no mechanisms to deal with the edge-to-edge aliveness problem. The edge-to-edge proxy approach dirties-up an otherwise clean end-to-end model. RANGI exploits existing IPv6 transition technologies (ISATAP and softwire), but it seems to me that these transition issues are orthogonal and don't need to be specified in RANGI drafts per se. RANGI only need address dealing with legacy IPv6, which it appears to do adequately well. From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Mon Jan 18 21:03:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8D23A6905 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.612, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9pOko0ilICQU for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091583A6861 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79FB39E80E0; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D+EYC8UaNW1j; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47ADB39E80B1; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: Joel M. Halpern In-Reply-To: <4B546B67.1060806@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:31 -0800 References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> <4B546B67.1060806@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:03:40 -0000 On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:08 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > It seems pretty obvious that you handle DNS addresses just the way > you do today. You configure the client (either directly, or via > DHCP, or ...) with the I/L pairs of the DNS servers. Since DNS > transactions are short, the client simply uses each one as a server > individually, and does not try any address agility or other fancy > techniques. > > Yes, this should be written down. But it is not hard, nor > complicated, and it certainly doesn't lead to recursion. > > It does mean that, just as today, if the DNS server one is using > gets renumbered, the configuration information has to get changed. > Well, it is pretty hard not to need that anyway. For any mapping > system, the mapping data requester has to avoid using the mapping > system to find the mapping system. > > Yours, > Joel > > PS: If you and Tony want to relax the 500 word limit, I am happy to > add a small discussion of the need for more clarity on this issue. > But given the word limit, I felt I needed to focus on things that > had more impact. hey ietf motto is "rough consesus", so I suppose our word limit is also just a "rough limit" as I cannot see why 499 words vs 510 words would make a writing better or worse. Some text in the original writing could also be removed without losing much I think here is how I see the issue: 1/ people argue all the time that every host and every application depend on DNS. 2/ however DNS itself cannot depend on DNS. This translates to that all DNS servers must have IP addresses as defined today, i.e. no composition of two parts. - All DNS authoritative servers must have their glue RRs carrying full IP address and stored at their parent zones; no composition. And - the same for DNS caching resolvers whose addresses must be the full length without any composition/lookup/whatever, to be configured into end hosts. Another specific detail here is that caching resolvers are not necessarily close to end hosts (e.g. I'm among those who use own resolver no matter where I go). My earlier statement seems an accurate summary of the situation: we are seeing an architecture with at least two types of IP6 addresses, one for all DNS servers (both authoritative and resolver types), one for everything else. (this picture gets me worry, as human beings are not known to always keep their head straight to tell what is what...) > Lixia Zhang wrote: >> I'm late catching up email. >> This critique is clearly written, though I do see one important >> issue that is missing, i.e. the one Robin tried to raise a few >> times: how to handle DNS server IP addresses. >> Let me try an example here: say that UCLA implemented ILNP, that >> would imply all DNS servers for UCLA.edue that are located on >> campus would have ILNP addresses, correct? >> But UCLA.edu also needs to put its NS RRs and glue RRs (IP >> addresses for NS RRs) on .edu servers, and I assume these glue RRs >> must be treated as traditional 16-byte IP6 addresses? (i.e. they >> are not subject to further interpretation/composition, a DNS >> resolver gets a glue RR and uses it directly to reach the DNS server) >> Then are we talking about an architecture with two types of IP6 >> addresses? >> My personal view is that this is not details, it shows that the >> design has a recursion: we need DNS to get IP addresses; we need IP >> addresses to reach DNS servers. >> Lixia From rw@firstpr.com.au Mon Jan 18 21:14:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD8D3A6891 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:14:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.448, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDuKX4bqSpqR for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C4D3A6861 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0ACB175BE7; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:14:41 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B553FC2.8030604@firstpr.com.au> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:14:42 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Ivip-fpr - new ID for simpler, faster and more robust fast-push mapping distribution X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:14:47 -0000 Ivip "Fast Payload Replication" (FPR): For real-time mapping distribution to hundreds of thousands of QSDs (full database query servers) in ISP and larger end-user networks. Ivip is intended to have no single point of failure and to be suitable for operation by a number of organisations who cooperate, but who may also be competing. I have made progress designing the fast-push system. This new ID: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-fpr will enable me to simplify draft-whittle-ivip-db-fast-push to match. Later I will update Ivip-arch too. I removed the need for complex "Launch" servers and replaced them with fully meshed level 0 Replicators. The code for these Replicators will be identical to that for all the other Replicators. This will be simpler, faster and more robust. The Launch servers involved two or three seconds of pipelined processing. The new arrangement is totally asynchronous, involves insignificant delay (no pipelined stages) and does not require synchronisation between the RUAS systems which generate the payloads of mapping information. Also, I anticipate a jumboframe system when the DFZ supports ~9kbyte MTUs. I have added "Missing Payload Servers" (MSPs). An MSP will receive streams from Replicators and compare notes with other MSPs near and far. Generally, any payloads they miss out on will be quickly replaced by ones they get from another MSP. QSDs will query one or more of these MSPs to get any payloads they miss. Links between MSPes and between MSPes and QSDs will be over TCP - probably HTTP or HTTPS. - Robin From bzhang@arizona.edu Mon Jan 18 22:14:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA53B3A6A38 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iwa4GWmeQ-ZI for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (frodo.email.arizona.edu [128.196.133.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7493A696C for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgators_amavis (amavis8.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.236]) by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B3F16D7901 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:13:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.0.0.100] (75-164-43-97.tcso.qwest.net [75.164.43.97]) by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14733200ECA6; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:13:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <647C6F6C-49E5-4E29-897F-11A1A6A0ED5D@arizona.edu> From: Beichuan Zhang To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:13:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu Subject: [rrg] critique of "Aggregation with Increasing Scopes" X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:14:05 -0000 Hi, Lan Wang and I put together the following critiques on our proposal "aggregation with increasing scopes". It's a summary of comments our team has collected, mainly from past RRG meetings and emails. --- beichuan ----------- All the RRG proposals that scale the routing share one fundamental approach, route aggregation, in different forms, e.g., LISP removes "edge prefixes" using encapsulation at ITRs, ILNP achieves the goal by locator rewrite. In this evolutionary path proposal, each stage of the evolution applies aggregation with increasing scopes to solve a specific scalability problem, and eventually the path leads towards global routing scalability. E.g., it uses FIB aggregation at single router level, virtual aggregation at network level, then between neighbor networks at inter-domain level. Compared to others, this proposal has the lowest hurdle to deployment, because it does not require all networks move to use a global mapping system or to upgrade all hosts, and it is designed for each individual network to get immediate benefits after its own deployment. Critiques to this proposal fall into two types. The first type concerns several potential issues in the technical design as listed below: (1) FIB aggregation, at level-3 and level-4, may introduce extra routable space. Concerns are raised about the potential routing loops resulted from forwarding otherwise non-routable packets, and potential impact on RPF checking. These concerns can be addressed by choosing a lower level of aggregation and by adding null routes to minimize the extra space, at the cost of reduced aggregation gain. (2) Virtual Aggregation changes the traffic paths in an ISP network, hence introduces path stretch. Changing the traffic path may also impact the reverse path checking practice used to filter out packets from spoofed sources. More analysis is need to identify the potential side-effects of VA and to address them. (3) The current Virtual aggregation description is difficult to understand, due to its multiple options for encapsulation and popular prefix configurations, which makes the mechanism look over- complicated. More thought is needed to simplify the design and description. (4) FIB Aggregation and Virtual Aggregation may require additional operational cost. There may be new design trade-offs that the operators need to understand in order to select the best option for their networks. More analysis is needed to identify and quantify all potential operational costs. (5) Different from a number of other proposals, this solution does not provide mobility support. It remains an open question whether the routing system should handle mobility. The second type of critique concerns whether deploying quick fixes like FIB aggregation would alleviate scalability problems in the short term and reduce the incentives for deployong a new architecture; and whether an evolutionary approach would end up with adding more and more patches on the old architecture, and not lead to a fundamentally new architecture as the proposal had expected. Though this solution may get rolled out more easily and quicker, a new architecture, if/ once deployed, could solve more problems with cleaner solutions. From kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov Mon Jan 18 22:21:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378393A6A5E for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:21:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KBktmPE89VYA for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.nist.gov (rimp2.nist.gov [129.6.16.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340CF3A6A45 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from WSXGHUB2.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub2.nist.gov [129.6.18.19]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o0J6Jos5027221; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:19:50 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::d479:3188:aec0:cb66]) by WSXGHUB2.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1213::8106:1213]) with mapi; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:19:36 -0500 From: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" To: Tony Li , "lixia@cs.ucla.edu" Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:19:36 -0500 Thread-Topic: Critique of "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes" Thread-Index: AQHKmM9F75W/hUdMz0aoMD4DZAxvkQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_D7A0423E5E193F40BE6E94126930C493078F53C041MBCLUSTERxcha_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov Cc: "rrg@irtf.org" Subject: [rrg] Critique of "Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols in Map-and-Encap Schemes" X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:21:56 -0000 --_002_D7A0423E5E193F40BE6E94126930C493078F53C041MBCLUSTERxcha_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am submitting the attached critique (for now) which is based on critical comments from a few select emails on the RRG list about this proposal. Yes, the reader has to put in a little effort to understand referring back to the figures or message flows in the slides (link provided). The comments do form a good critique in my opinion. I have included the necessary web links in the document. Lixia has read this and has offered to "rewrite it in a more=20 comprehensible way" later. 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23:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.155, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R79jumRlwFeA for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48843A6888 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC4E39E80DF for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuhH65lYChlg for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C908F39E80DC for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <84E09052-8C7D-4C6F-8DE3-B07C5B04109C@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:45 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: [rrg] a quick critique on 2-phased mapping X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:27:52 -0000 This is a simple idea on how to scale mapping. However personally I feel the design is too incomplete to be considered a serious input to RRG. Take the following 2 issues as example: First, in this 2-phase scheme, an AS is essentially the unit of destinations (i.e. sending ITRs find out destination AS D, then send data to one of of D's ETR). This does not offer much choice for traffic engineering. Second, there is no consideration whatsoever on failure detection and handling. Lixia From xuxh@huawei.com Mon Jan 18 23:33:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC0B3A67FE for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:33:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.325 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.325 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.688, BAYES_40=-0.185, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_GIF_ATTACH=1.42] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O7oMbwAhv0Ml for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E003A6888 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWH00K4YGZ3NU@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:33:04 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWH005ZBGZ341@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:33:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from HUAWEIE75F8F11 ([10.111.13.9]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KWH000TGGZ24Q@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for rrg@irtf.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:33:03 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:33:02 +0800 From: Xu Xiaohu In-reply-to: <022A5FA0-484C-4437-BAC8-CDBCEB131E5A@cs.ucla.edu> To: 'Lixia Zhang' Message-id: <005501ca98d9$a1e11b50$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_KIT/KzSodrseZI5EBz+VrQ)" Thread-index: AcqYvxV6K7z0ArB5Qn+mgZtvPOMNiwAA9m6w Cc: 'RRG' Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:33:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_KIT/KzSodrseZI5EBz+VrQ) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_k1SaAD8dhKMveJKVKveSvQ)" --Boundary_(ID_k1SaAD8dhKMveJKVKveSvQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 > -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA1=D4=C219=C8=D5 12:23 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xu Xiaohu > =B3=AD=CB=CD: RRG; Paul Francis > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI >=20 >=20 > On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Xu Xiaohu wrote: > >> ..... > >> Hi Paul, > >> > >> I did not know that you were working on RANGI critique; as I > >> mentioned > >> to Xiaohu I could do one. > >> So what I just did now is some minor additions to your text > >> (1)pointing out that RAGNI ID is 24-byte long, > > > > No, RANGI ID is 16-byte long. The following is a demonstration of > > the RANGI > > ID. > > > > |<------- n bits --------->|<-- 128-n bits-->| > > +--------------------------+-----------------+ > > | Administrative Domain ID | Local Host ID | > > +--------------------------+-----------------+ > > | \ > > | \ > > | \ > > | \ > > | \ > > +-----------+-------------+-------------+ > > | Country ID| Authority ID| Region ID | <------Example > > +-----------+-------------+-------------+ >=20 > sorry, I missed the "-n" fine print :( > In your RRG presentation at Hiroshima, the slide says n=3D64. if that > is still the case, then your local hostID would have the same length > as ILNP EID (though the latter requires global uniqueness, and I > suppose yours not) =20 Yes. To simplify the implementation, we use CGA as host identifier currently. Hence the value of n is set to 64. =20 > > (2)doing ID looking > >> using DHT raises trust issue; > > > > In fact, we use the reverse DNS infrastructure as the id/locator > > mapping > > system, while the DHT is optionally used at the bottom level of this > > infrastructure to make the authoritative server scale better. >=20 > The Hiroshima RRG talk showed the other way around ... >=20 > > This is my > > assumption of a hierarchical DHT. IMHO, the hierarchical DHT doesn't > > mean > > DHT should be used in each level. >=20 > DHT is used for lookups for systems with very large number of entries. > With a hierarchical system, where the bottom level is not that big, I > wonder what is the value of using DHT in the first place. =20 I don't want to introduce too many levels in the hierarchy. Hence, in a given administrative domain (e.g., a state or a province), there may be = a lot of entries to manage. =20 > I did not following the first sentence below (what do you mean by > using "AD ID as a key"?) =20 A detailed example is given as follows: =20 1. An AD ID is expressed as "country-code.authority-code.region-code" by inserting dots between adjacent fields, then it is transformed into a = FQDN format string as "region-code.authority-code.country-code". 2. The above FQDN format string is used as a key in the reverse DNS infrastructure to locate the corresponding authoritative server or the = DHT ring for that AD. If DHT is used to scale the bottom-level authoritative name servers, the Local Host ID part is used as a key to locate the corresponding peer which stores the mapping of that identifier. 3. The Local Host ID part is used as a key to locate the matching = mapping entry in the mapping table of the corresponding name server or the corresponding peer. =20 The following figure is a demonstration of the mapping system to be used = in RANGI. =20 =20 =20 > > The structured AD ID is used as a key in the reverse DNS > > infrastructure to > > locate the corresponding super authoritative server (or the > > corresponding > > DHT ring when using DHT to make the authoritative server scale > > better) which > > maintains mappings for the identifiers belonging to that > > Administration > > Domain. If DHT is used to scale the authoritative server, the Local > > Host ID > > (flat label) is then used as a key in that corresponding DHT ring to > > locate > > the node which holds the mapping for that identifier. Hence, this > > mapping > > system has reasonable business model and clear trust boundaries. >=20 > Wonder if you have this described somewhere? > I did not find it in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-xu-rangi-01.txt =20 Details about the id/locator mapping system will be included in that = draft or described in a separate draft soon. =20 > >> ..... > >> RANGI critique > >> ...... > >> More thought is > >> needed as to what constitutes these levels, and what is the trust > >> relation among the ID-Locator resolution servers that use DHT for > >> lookup. > >> > >> The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and = separately > >> an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. > >> This > > > > Yes, the reverse DNS is used as an ID->locator mapping system in > > RANGI, with > > this approach there is no need for every host to have a unique FQDN. >=20 > this sounds like as if having a FQDN for each host a drawback? =20 Not sure whether it is a drawback. However, since there is already a = global unique host identifier for each host in RANGI, which can be easily used = for id->locator lookup, it seems no need to assign each host a unique FQDN. =20 > >> represents additional cost compared to ILNP design where FQDN = lookup > >> produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the gain by one > >> additional lookup to justify the cost? > > > > Yes, I know. However, ILNP design requires that every host should > > have a > > unique FQDN for ID and locator lookup. >=20 > could you elaborate what may be the problem with this as you see? =20 The reason I can thought why ILNP requires each host has a unique FQDN = is: the flat EIDs to which the sessions are bound are not suitable for EID->Locator resolution, so another namespace (i.e., FQDN) is referred = to. =20 My doubt is how a legacy host continues the communication to an = ILNP-aware host once the latter changes its locator due to mobility or re-homing = event. Note that the legacy host will not resort the DNS to get the new locator = of the ILNP-aware host. =20 > > > >> Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes = me > >> as weak at best. > > > > We have the RANGI-PROXY [I-D.draft-xu-rangi-proxy-01] mechanisms > > with which > > legacy hosts could initiate communications to RANGI-aware hosts, and > > vice > > verse. >=20 > Is it fair to say that RANGI-PROXY is a similar idea to LISP's PTRs? =20 To be more accurate, the site proxy is similar to LISP ITR while the = transit proxy is similar to LISP PTR. =20 Xiaohu =20 > I am trying to identify commonalities among proposals. >=20 > Lixia --Boundary_(ID_k1SaAD8dhKMveJKVKveSvQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lixia Zhang = [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu]

> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: = 2010=C4=EA1=D4=C219=C8=D5 = 12:23

> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xu = Xiaohu

> =B3=AD=CB=CD: RRG; Paul = Francis

> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [rrg] critique = of RANGI

>

>

> On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Xu Xiaohu = wrote:

> >> .....

> >> Hi Paul,

> >>

> >> I did not know that you were working on RANGI = critique; as I

> >> mentioned

> >> to Xiaohu I could do one.

> >> So what I just did now is some minor additions to = your text

> >> (1)pointing out that RAGNI ID is 24-byte = long,

> >

> > No, RANGI ID is 16-byte long. The following is a = demonstration of

> > the RANGI

> > ID.

> >

> >       |<------- n bits --------->|<-- 128-n bits-->|

> >       +--------------------------+-----------------+

> >       | Administrative = Domain ID |   Local Host ID |

> >       +--------------------------+-----------------+

> >       |            =             &= nbsp;   \

> >       |            =             &= nbsp;     \

> >      =  |           =             &= nbsp;        \

> >       |            =             &= nbsp;          \

> >       |            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; \

> >       +-----------+-------------+-------------+

> >       | Country ID| = Authority ID| Region ID   | <------Example

> >       = +-----------+-------------+-------------+

>

> sorry, I missed the "-n" fine print = :(

> In your RRG presentation at Hiroshima, the slide says n=3D64.  if that

> is still the case, then your local hostID would have the = same length

> as ILNP EID (though the latter requires global uniqueness, = and I

> suppose yours not)

 

Yes. To simplify the implementation, we use CGA as host = identifier currently. Hence the value of n is set to 64.

 

> > (2)doing ID looking

> >> using DHT raises trust issue;

> >

> > In fact, we use the reverse DNS infrastructure as the id/locator

> > mapping

> > system, while the DHT is optionally used at the bottom = level of this

> > infrastructure to make the authoritative server scale = better.

>

> The Hiroshima RRG talk showed the other way around = ...

>

> > This is my

> > assumption of a hierarchical DHT. IMHO, the = hierarchical DHT doesn't

> > mean

> > DHT should be used in each level.

>

> DHT is used for lookups for systems with very large number = of entries.

> With a hierarchical system, where the bottom level is not = that big, I

> wonder what is the value of using DHT in the first = place.

 

I don't want to introduce too many = levels in the hierarchy. Hence, in a given administrative domain (e.g., a state = or a province), there may be a lot of entries to manage.

 

> I did not following the first sentence below (what do you = mean by

> using "AD ID as a key"?)

 

A detailed example is given as = follows:

 

1. An AD ID is expressed as "country-code.authority-code.region-code" by inserting dots = between adjacent fields, then it is transformed into a FQDN format string as = "region-code.authority-code.country-code".

2. The above FQDN format string is = used as a key in the reverse DNS infrastructure to locate the corresponding authoritative server or the DHT ring for that AD. If DHT is used to = scale the bottom-level authoritative name servers, the Local Host ID part is used = as a key to locate the corresponding peer which stores the mapping of that = identifier.

3. The Local Host ID part is used = as a key to locate the matching mapping entry in the mapping table of the = corresponding name server or the corresponding peer.

 

The following figure is a = demonstration of the mapping system to be used in RANGI.

 

 

 

> > The structured AD ID is used as a key in the reverse = DNS

> > infrastructure to

> > locate the corresponding super authoritative server (or = the

> > corresponding

> > DHT ring when using DHT to make the authoritative = server scale

> > better) which

> > maintains mappings for the identifiers belonging to = that

> > Administration

> > Domain. If DHT is used to scale the authoritative = server, the Local

> > Host ID

> > (flat label) is then used as a key in that = corresponding DHT ring to

> > locate

> > the node which holds the mapping for that identifier. = Hence, this

> > mapping

> > system has reasonable business model and clear trust boundaries.

>

> Wonder if you have this described = somewhere?

> I did not find it in = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-xu-rangi-01.txt

 

Details about the id/locator = mapping system will be included in that draft or described in a separate draft = soon.

 

> >> .....

> >> RANGI critique

> >> ......

> >> More thought is

> >> needed as to what constitutes these levels, and = what is the trust

> >> relation among the ID-Locator resolution servers = that use DHT for

> >> lookup.

> >>

> >> The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through = DNS, and separately

> >> an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else.

> >> This

> >

> > Yes, the reverse DNS is used as an ID->locator = mapping system in

> > RANGI, with

> > this approach there is no need for every host to have a = unique FQDN.

>

> this sounds like as if having a FQDN for each host a = drawback?

 

Not sure whether it is a drawback. = However, since there is already a global unique host identifier for each host in = RANGI, which can be easily used for id->locator lookup, it seems no need to = assign each host a unique FQDN.

 

> >> represents additional cost compared to ILNP design = where FQDN lookup

> >> produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the = gain by one

> >> additional lookup to justify the = cost?

> >

> > Yes, I know. However, ILNP design requires that every = host should

> > have a

> > unique FQDN for ID and locator = lookup.

>

> could you elaborate what may be the problem with this as you = see?

 

The reason I can thought why ILNP requires each host has a unique = FQDN is: the flat EIDs to which the sessions are bound are not suitable for EID->Locator resolution, so another namespace (i.e., FQDN) is = referred to.

 

My doubt is how a legacy host continues the communication to an ILNP-aware host once the latter changes its locator due to mobility or re-homing event. Note that the legacy host will not resort the DNS to = get the new locator of the ILNP-aware host.

 

> >

> >> Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host = upgrade strikes me

> >> as weak at best.

> >

> > We have the RANGI-PROXY [I-D.draft-xu-rangi-proxy-01] mechanisms

> > with which

> > legacy hosts could initiate communications to = RANGI-aware hosts, and

> > vice

> > verse.

>

> Is it fair to say that RANGI-PROXY is a similar idea to = LISP's PTRs?

 

To be more accurate, the site proxy is similar to LISP ITR while = the transit proxy is similar to LISP PTR.

 

Xiaohu

 

> I am trying to identify commonalities among = proposals.

>

> Lixia

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4/eq+Ls6zo+HRdyonpbYwwHm/81/LVxiJpu1JgSOInOQbFnFCDmKnRXLlJts4AS37TJbTmSRHxXZ 5YKZkSuGlYK6qdFcOmSsMO4xj8HbXQM1qsYQVVlQjAjk+cqZz3/+8Xfxc6H/gLUypNJybimCq/1+ U0RlNvOWNRNbCQM0vGtLcaTFKaTXhvKSF4xRNjU96sqoDaEZDFOiHVw1VT/vZksmtaIDnSmtyZiY pO3MU32M2D7HOc6pbt9UogcdYfIa0MaeNZx7vexWg01JwtKs4VQCvmZz2SFXy5NiZPi6WHf7MLuK juSiLSDdgE9jCvY2jhUUbm0NC2xt5LZp093tyY6KnLhxWkTAAx3fzhug4wU4ZKwqdLf7CldXsPY3 bvnsvBNqBlQK/E9y8X3Csx5b2Ra3tas5dxn8QTx7491Vp3d98WSP3OR+FrRrjTIo4iYcrPp2YLVd nnA2t9fTM99ipb0qapz33Df9OarPUfW9UAu9yRiXY535E6m1ntzXzC65XeG4dIRDHdlXJznWnW51 w2wQheM2+mPnFXayE7XsE+7K2dW+dra33dBaRzncn470uUe97nLn+tbpnve4UzMgADs= --Boundary_(ID_KIT/KzSodrseZI5EBz+VrQ)-- From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Mon Jan 18 23:42:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471E03A6941 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.459 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.459 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.140, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90sR9DMucLlM for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E10E3A68D1 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA0E39E80DF for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I+Vs5fXnJItr for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A75C439E80DC for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <44ACD6A1-FD12-4310-A881-EA46BA71B215@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: rrg@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:42:06 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: [rrg] Ivip Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:42:12 -0000 Robin and I have had a few rounds of text revisions. Since the deadline is fast approaching, here is my latest version. Lixia ----------- Ivip Critique Looking at 1000 feet level, Ivip shares the basic design approaches with LISP and a number of other Map-n-Encap designs based on the core-edge separation. However the details differ substantially. Ivip design takes a bold assumption that, with technology advances, one could afford to maintain a real time distributed global mapping database for all networks and hosts. Ivip proposes that multiple parties collaborate to build a mapping distribution system which pushes all mapping information and updates to local, full database query servers located in all ISPs within a few seconds. The system has no single point of failure, and uses end-to end authentication. "Real time, globally synchronized mapping database" is a critical assumption in Ivip. Using that as a foundation, Ivip design avoids several challenging design issues that LISP team has studied extensively, which include (1) special considerations of mobility support which adds additional complexity to the overall system; (2) prompt detection of ETR failures and notification to all relevant ITRs, which turn out to be a rather difficult problem; and (3) development of LISP-ALT lookup sub-system. Ivip assumes the existence of local query servers with full database with the latest mapping information changes. However to be considered as a viable solution to Internet routing scalability problem, Ivip faces two fundamental questions. First, it is an entirely open question whether a global-scale system is able to achieve real time synchronized operations as assumed by Ivip. Past experiences suggest otherwise. The second question concerns incremental rollout. Ivip represents an ambitious approach, with real-time mapping and local full database query servers - which many people regard as impossible. Developing and implementing Ivip may take fair amount of resources, yet there is an open question regarding how to *quantify* the gains by first movers - both those who will provide the Ivip infrastructure and those which will use it. Significant global routing table reduction only happens when a large enough number of parties have adopted Ivip. The same question arises for most other proposals as well. One belief is that Ivip's more ambitious mapping system makes a good design tradeoff for the greater benefits for end-user networks and for those which develop the infrastructure. Another belief is that this ambitious design is not viable. From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Tue Jan 19 00:01:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DA43A6950 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:01:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.172 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.172 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.173, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id niHlZspOOWQc for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43913A6892 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6598C39E80DF; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:00:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eqFv9mJBooe4; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A29739E80DC; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:00:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Lixia Zhang To: Charrie Sun In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:00:55 -0800 References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:01:01 -0000 the text version is indeed much better for many people I believe (though there still seem some strange char's in the text) On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Charrie Sun wrote: > Hello all, > Since no one has written a critique of my LMS, I queried my > workmates and wrote a critique on it. As many people have pointed > out, LMS is a mapping mechanism and does not itself constitute a > whole solution for the scalability problem. Well the mechanism is > based on edge-core separations and can incorparate with proposals > that need a global mapping system, to enhance its functionalities. > I also wrote a brief critique on GLI-Split, since I think the > two separation planes it clarifies, including the separation between > identifier and locator and the separation between local and global > locator, can meet different needs of ISPs and hosts. I had some > discussions with Dr. Menth and wrote the critique based on the > discussions and rethinking. Welcome for complement and > rectifications on mine. > Attached is my critiques and warmly welcome for comments. it seems to me that a major missing issue in LMS critique is an articulation on the novelty: given this design is long after LISP-ALT, what are the fundamental differences/new gains in LMS? I read through the paper your summary pointed to (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05491.html ). Section 5 stated that "The idea is similar to LISP+ALT while differs from it in several ways: (1) As previous stated we place ETRs at the core, while LISP+ALT places them at the edge; (2) MNs maintain mapping data instead of ETRs. (3) the structure is explicitly designed as to the layer number and node degrees, which is unclear in LISP-ALT. (4)ITR buffers the arriving packets when its cache failed to find a mapping. In LISP+ALT now the implementation is just to drop the packets." None of the above points looks like essential to me. Wonder what I missed? Lixia From francis@mpi-sws.org Tue Jan 19 00:02:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2479B3A6892; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.845, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_96_XX=1.69, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24CcibDXc3Gu; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de (hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de [139.19.1.49]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354C43A680E; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:02:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mpi-sb.mpg.de; s=mail200803; h=In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: MIME-Version:Subject:From:Message-ID:Date:Content-Type; bh=/s2sV lHiF0cmZaSp3ywGNM+9BvFZBPL5YYyXFVb6soY=; b=M/TKQATW7VjCJDz/FPyWY 92fHh2UBGSidHXsbcaaR2NKUF9LtzblfzL2LlIB4L+wImrLKxIWHblJlLXQytUUl rSvjgMZrVloQUbno2S/afkacBtOtl7Uc+tQ6Rk1QXphFmK2Hv8E8AFJ7YpH7iZXL hkWxGA6RS/RMuypPODOrM0= Received: from domino.mpi-sb.mpg.de ([139.19.3.53]:2728 helo=domino.mpi-inf.mpg.de) by hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de (envelope-from ) with esmtp (Exim 4.69) id 1NX932-0002Cq-Ru; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:02:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <40CC821E-E1B7-44F0-8332-3129862DE39A@cs.ucla.edu> References: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> <40CC821E-E1B7-44F0-8332-3129862DE39A@cs.ucla.edu> To: Lixia Zhang MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 85CDC286:E501034C-C12576B0:002A6FEC; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1 September 28, 2009 From: Paul Francis Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on domino/MPII/DE(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 12/30/2009 09:02:48, Serialize complete at 12/30/2009 09:02:48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Cc: rrg@irtf.org, rrg-bounces@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:02:59 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 09:02:48 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:02:59 -0000 inline rrg-bounces@irtf.org wrote on 01/19/2010 05:36:10 AM: > From: Lixia Zhang > To: rrg@irtf.org > Date: 01/19/2010 05:36 AM > Subject: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision > Sent by: rrg-bounces@irtf.org > > based on Xiaohu's comments here is a revision to fix the minor > technical errors I made earlier (I want to get it right because Tony > will incorporate into the collection) > > Lixia > PS: going through the text I realized the phrase "using DNS reverse > lookup" is a bit misleading -- it is NOT about lookup from IP address > to DNS names as the phrase literally means. > ----------------- > RANGI critique > > RANGI is an ID/locator split protocol that, like HIP, places a > cryptographically signed ID between the network layer (IPv6) and > transport. Unlike the HIP ID, the RANGI ID has a hierarchical > structure that allows it to support ID->locator lookups. This > hierarchical structure addresses two weaknesses of the flat HIP ID: > the difficulty of doing the ID->locator lookup, and the administrative > scalability of doing firewall filtering on flat IDs. The usage of this > hierarchy is overloaded: it serves to make the ID unique, to drive the > lookup process, and possibly other things like firewall filtering. > RANGI ID uses 8-byte for the administrative hierarchy. More thought is > needed as to what constitutes these levels, the use of "DNS reverse > lookup" vs DHT for the ID-Locator resolution and their relations to > administrative boundaries. > > The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately > an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. This > represents additional cost compared to ILNP design where FQDN lookup > produces both ID and locators. Can one quantify the gain by one > additional lookup to justify the cost? The ID->locator lookup is needed in any event. Adding the locator to the FQDN->ID lookup is straightforward. Your wording makes it sound like RANGI is opposed to returning both ID and locator in the FQDN, which I doubt is the case. My original text said: The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. I think it would be better if the FQDN lookup produces both ID and locators, and that it is sufficient that the ID->locator lookup be DNS. I still kinda prefer the original wording, but if you want to include the comparison with ILNP, then how about this: The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else. I think it would be better if the FQDN lookup produces both ID and locators (as does ILNP). I also think that it is sufficient that the ID->locator lookup be DNS. > > RANGI provides strong sender identification, but at the cost of > computing crypto. Many hosts (public web servers) may prefer to forgo > the crypto at the expense of losing some functionality (receiver > mobility or dynamic multihome load balance). While RANGI doesn't > require that the receiver validate the sender, it may be good to have > a mechanism whereby the receiver can signal to the sender that it is > not validating, so that the sender can avoid locator changes. > > In terms of scaling the DFZ routing, RANGI's solution closely > resembles that of ILNP based on locator rewrite at border routers. > Architecturally it seems best to put the mapping function at the end > host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness and > delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. > Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me > as weak at best. Adding the DFZ scaling sentence at the beginning of this paragraph produces a non-sequitur. More importantly, as Huawei mentioned in his last email, the rewriting is for incoming traffic engineering at multihomed sites, not for scaling DFZ routing. I suggest we just remove the DFZ sentence (I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with it). More generally, I wrote the initial critique in the first person, and included a few statements which are clearly meant to be my opinion rather than fact per se. I was under the impression that there could be multiple critiques per proposal, each written by an individual or group. Is this the case, or is there supposed to be one critique per proposal? If the former, I'd prefer just to keep the critique as originally written. If the latter, then I'd like to modify the proposal to remove the first person perspective and opinions. PF > RANGI suffers from the mobility race condition (there is no mention of > a home-agent like device), though my personal opinion is that host-to- > host notification combined with fallback on the ID->locators lookup > (assuming adequate dynamic update of the lookup system) is good enough > for the vast majority of mobility situations. > > RANGI uses proxies to deal with both "legacy IPv6" and IPv4 sites. > RANGI proxies have no mechanisms to deal with the edge-to-edge > aliveness problem. The edge-to-edge proxy approach dirties-up an > otherwise clean end-to-end model. > > RANGI exploits existing IPv6 transition technologies (ISATAP and > softwire), but it seems to me that these transition issues are > orthogonal and don't need to be specified in RANGI drafts per se. > RANGI only need address dealing with legacy IPv6, which it appears to > do adequately well. > _______________________________________________ > rrg mailing list > rrg@irtf.org > http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg From scott.brim@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 00:17:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B58C3A68D1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:17:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W607HI3oL9Q3 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.221.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A483A68B6 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so2214997qyk.7 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:17:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5+xHmt7vZeozw4qILmx10bzkUlSqt7JwRgLAJpVLeW0=; b=LQMHfrrIyCKudIixJEEkmxxbdINTvzkzB1hVFN36dcxOQMgtjovC95s3xkO9E+gET9 /IkcJHsV1NMXS/WNNjkLj896puB50o44QwMU9GoSx2Zcym6T/GS9B78FxDytB/Mibo3x wjoOdRG2d8vCNp4eSYjj5J6ZiBIl6FtAjJEpo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=UhyKpvhFzlFzwwyBuAX+3BQ+RFOurPQQU0ziWGFDbQUdwCbX0a2sgbSh9f4DOm6RWh QtDfY/v5nLRpFfAudDhUVZQQuJcD7/If72fWTdvVM1OKdqbFso8x4pBLAd6rj3RJ6oGh QLGBPxfXMJ+nap4F5rIECqCtKuzwU66sj8kBQ= Received: by 10.224.118.71 with SMTP id u7mr827891qaq.181.1263889047837; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbrim-mbp.local (198-135-0-233.cisco.com [198.135.0.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5sm8869857qwg.58.2010.01.19.00.17.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:17:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B556A90.7010803@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:17:20 -0500 From: Scott Brim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Francis References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:17:35 -0000 I'm going to try to do some catching up ... > RANGI suffers from the mobility race condition (there is no mention > of a home-agent like device), though my personal opinion is that > host-to-host notification combined with fallback on the ID->locators > lookup (assuming adequate dynamic update of the lookup system) is > good enough for the vast majority of mobility situations. Speaking in general, not just about RANGI ... Falling back to the mapping system would be adequate except that we also need interoperability with others that don't speak your protocol -- either because they are "legacy" or because your protocol has been superceded. As a general principle, any solution must include interoperating as a major capability. From lixia@cs.ucla.edu Tue Jan 19 00:23:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9633A68C9 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xctnjeN1Lh8C for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CA03A67B2 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BEC39E80DF; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ND9IeoC9S1mq; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (cpe-98-151-23-234.socal.res.rr.com [98.151.23.234]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3909139E80DC; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2842611C-BE13-4039-A694-21E97FF581FD@cs.ucla.edu> From: Lixia Zhang To: Paul Francis In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:23:30 -0800 References: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> <40CC821E-E1B7-44F0-8332-3129862DE39A@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:23:36 -0000 On Dec 30, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Paul Francis wrote: >> .... >> In terms of scaling the DFZ routing, RANGI's solution closely >> resembles that of ILNP based on locator rewrite at border routers. >> Architecturally it seems best to put the mapping function at the end >> host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness >> and >> delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. >> Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me >> as weak at best. > > Adding the DFZ scaling sentence at the beginning of this paragraph > produces a non-sequitur. > > More importantly, as Huawei mentioned in his last email, the > rewriting is > for incoming traffic engineering at multihomed sites, not for > scaling DFZ > routing. I suggest we just remove the DFZ sentence (I'm not sure what > point you are trying to make with it). I am trying to identify commonalities of mechanisms among different proposals. > More generally, I wrote the initial critique in the first person, and > included a few statements which are clearly meant to be my opinion > rather > than fact per se. I was under the impression that there could be > multiple > critiques per proposal, each written by an individual or group. Is > this > the case, or is there supposed to be one critique per proposal? the latter, that's the only reason I changed your text > If the > former, I'd prefer just to keep the critique as originally written. > If the > latter, then I'd like to modify the proposal to remove the first > person > perspective and opinions. > > PF please feel free to revise, and fix any errors you thought I introduced. Lixia From rw@firstpr.com.au Tue Jan 19 00:54:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073073A67B2 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:54:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.429, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id klbIpVP03MKt for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4B03A6804 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 00:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9462C175CD7; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:54:52 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B55735E.1080100@firstpr.com.au> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:54:54 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rrg@irtf.org References: <44ACD6A1-FD12-4310-A881-EA46BA71B215@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <44ACD6A1-FD12-4310-A881-EA46BA71B215@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] Ivip Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:54:58 -0000 Folks, Lixia bounced drafts to me so I could correct any misunderstandings - I really appreciate this. This is a pretty "1000 foot view" critique, and ideally there would be more detailed discussion of the most challenging or contentious aspects of Ivip. But the co-chairs can't be expecting lots of detail in 500 words. There's time and space for more detailed discussion on RRG list - and at 371 words, there's space for other people adding something to what Lixia wrote. I am revising ivip-db-fast-push to 03 and hope to get back to critiques in the next few hours. - Robin From francis@mpi-sws.org Tue Jan 19 01:00:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43163A680C for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:00:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.967 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.967 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.282, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fF6r-X82vOZd for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de (infao0809.mpi-sb.mpg.de [139.19.1.49]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFB53A68D1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:00:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mpi-sb.mpg.de; s=mail200803; h=In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: MIME-Version:Subject:From:Message-ID:Date:Content-Type; bh=eL1Dy 78hasQksfGLEu21sexDw0y+O1JJT4gmWfUeJG8=; b=g3L9n1ZTTZ6yHmHReHHR2 WjAagV0rduLJ2S4w2m7ezOd7ld4UEXsjTpETpWfR2wC0/RWTTT5e0aHM7xfIU4zk Y/NWjRe9icbbUUmhsMgcVzA8AYGY7ZCDgJSlZPluS2eJ9g9XV2KWZurY0CCEOsbM ZA57R98Ub6RbrxEWmc2Few= Received: from swsao0821.mpi-sb.mpg.de ([139.19.3.53]:3126 helo=domino.mpi-inf.mpg.de) by hera.mpi-sb.mpg.de (envelope-from ) with esmtp (Exim 4.69) id 1NX9wK-0007lv-I6; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:59:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2842611C-BE13-4039-A694-21E97FF581FD@cs.ucla.edu> References: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> <40CC821E-E1B7-44F0-8332-3129862DE39A@cs.ucla.edu> <2842611C-BE13-4039-A694-21E97FF581FD@cs.ucla.edu> To: Lixia Zhang MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: F4426DE4:BD02B15E-C12576B0:003152F1; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1 September 28, 2009 From: Paul Francis Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:59:57 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on domino/MPII/DE(Release 8.5.1|September 28, 2009) at 01/19/2010 09:59:57, Serialize complete at 01/19/2010 09:59:57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:00:06 -0000 Ok, here is the depersonalized RANGI critique. PF RANGI critique RANGI is an ID/locator split protocol that, like HIP, places a cryptographically signed ID between the network layer (IPv6) and transport. Unlike the HIP ID, the RANGI ID has a hierarchical structure that allows it to support ID->locator lookups. This hierarchical structure addresses two weaknesses of the flat HIP ID: the difficulty of doing the ID->locator lookup, and the administrative scalability of doing firewall filtering on flat IDs. The usage of this hierarchy is overloaded: it serves to make the ID unique, to drive the lookup process, and possibly other things like firewall filtering. More thought is needed as to what constitutes these levels with respect to these various roles. The RANGI draft suggests FQDN->ID lookup through DNS, and separately an ID->locator lookup which may be DNS or may be something else (a hierarchy of DHTs). It would be more efficient if the FQDN lookup produces both ID and locators (as does ILNP). Probably DNS alone is sufficient for the ID->locator lookup since individual DNS servers can hold very large numbers of mappings. RANGI provides strong sender identification, but at the cost of computing crypto. Many hosts (public web servers) may prefer to forgo the crypto at the expense of losing some functionality (receiver mobility or dynamic multihome load balance). While RANGI doesn't require that the receiver validate the sender, it may be good to have a mechanism whereby the receiver can signal to the sender that it is not validating, so that the sender can avoid locator changes. Architecturally there are many advantages to putting the mapping function at the end host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness and delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. Unfortunately, the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade may not be adequate (HIP's lack of uptake being an example). RANGI does not have an explicit solution for the mobility race condition (there is no mention of a home-agent like device). However, host-to-host notification combined with fallback on the ID->locators lookup (assuming adequate dynamic update of the lookup system) may be good enough for the vast majority of mobility situations. RANGI uses proxies to deal with both legacy IPv6 and IPv4 sites. RANGI proxies have no mechanisms to deal with the edge-to-edge aliveness problem. The edge-to-edge proxy approach dirties-up an otherwise clean end-to-end model. RANGI exploits existing IPv6 transition technologies (ISATAP and softwire). These transition technologies are in any event being pursued outside of RRG and do not need to be specified in RANGI drafts per se. RANGI only needs to address how it interoperates with IPv4 and legacy IPv6, which through proxies it appears to do adequately well. From: Lixia Zhang To: Paul Francis Cc: rrg@irtf.org Date: 01/19/2010 09:24 AM Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision On Dec 30, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Paul Francis wrote: >> .... >> In terms of scaling the DFZ routing, RANGI's solution closely >> resembles that of ILNP based on locator rewrite at border routers. >> Architecturally it seems best to put the mapping function at the end >> host (versus at the edge). This simplifies the neighbor aliveness >> and >> delayed first packet problems, and avoids stateful middleboxes. >> Unfortunately the early-adopter incentive for host upgrade strikes me >> as weak at best. > > Adding the DFZ scaling sentence at the beginning of this paragraph > produces a non-sequitur. > > More importantly, as Huawei mentioned in his last email, the > rewriting is > for incoming traffic engineering at multihomed sites, not for > scaling DFZ > routing. I suggest we just remove the DFZ sentence (I'm not sure what > point you are trying to make with it). I am trying to identify commonalities of mechanisms among different proposals. > More generally, I wrote the initial critique in the first person, and > included a few statements which are clearly meant to be my opinion > rather > than fact per se. I was under the impression that there could be > multiple > critiques per proposal, each written by an individual or group. Is > this > the case, or is there supposed to be one critique per proposal? the latter, that's the only reason I changed your text > If the > former, I'd prefer just to keep the critique as originally written. > If the > latter, then I'd like to modify the proposal to remove the first > person > perspective and opinions. > > PF please feel free to revise, and fix any errors you thought I introduced. Lixia From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de Tue Jan 19 01:17:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6243A6946 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:17:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QyjGhZOmisQI for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDEA3A68E1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897B85ADB4; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:17:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861095ADA5; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:17:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Received: from [132.187.12.151] (win3151.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.151]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65DB15CDDF; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:17:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:17:34 +0100 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charrie Sun References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:17:41 -0000 Dear Sun Letong, thanks a lot for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have some clarifying comments, see inline. > Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun Letong > GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two separation planes: the > separation between identifier and locator, which is to meet end-users > needs including mobility; the separation between local and global > locator, to make the global routing table scalable. The distinction is > needed since ISPs and hosts have different requirements. The distinction makes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a GLI-domain including the local mapping system, and structural changes inside a GLI-domain invisible to nodes outside a GLI-domain including the global mapping system. > A main drawback of GLI-Split is that it puts too much burden on hosts. > Before routing a packet received from upper layers, network stacks in > hosts firstly need resolve the DNS name to an IP address; if the IP > address is GLI-formed, it may further map the identifier extracted > from the IP address to the local locator. If the communication is > between different GLI-domains, hosts need further to map the > identifier to the global locator, if the local mapping system does not > forward the request to the global mapping system for hosts. This may > lead to large delays and for low-powered hosts it may become unpractical. 1) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either to a local or global address. They perform only a single conversion. When reading the text one may think that two conversion steps are required. 2) The conversion usually does not introduce a "large dealy" as the mapping infos are cached. The delay is at the host where it is not critical. It's like DNS lookup, probably faster if the mapping system is more efficient than DNS (see FIRMS). 3) This statement suggests that GLI-Split requires host changes which is not necessarily true. A major objective of GLI-Split is to be backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no changes are necessary. Of course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more benefits than classic IPv6 hosts. This essential aspect is lacking. > For communications spanning GLI-domains, hosts can send packets to a > default GLI-gateway if they receive a negative answer from local > mapping system, and the default GLI-gateway does the > identifier-to-global locator mapping. That's part of the description. I cannot see how this sentence is related to the previous or next statement. > The author argues that the multiple mapping lookups in hosts is for > them to do multipath routing, since different destinations (local or > global) may need different outgoing gateways. However, the gains of > multipath routing and the cost of host burdens, and the corresponding > delays, need to be further balanced. GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it supports it if needed. And there is a clear desire to support multipath routing, just see the current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP. > GLI-hosts need a home address for mobility. I think there¡¯s no such > need if the DNS system updates in time when GLI-hosts move across > GLI-domains, which is less frequent compared with host mobility within > a GLI-domain. The DNS updates would not take too long: on one hand, > caching time of DNS now is as small as a few seconds or minutes (for > load balance and other applications); on the other hand, a mechanism > can be devised to trigger updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in this > case hosts need not map the identifier to the global locator since the > returned DNS response has that information, of course, if they do not > need multipath routing. We deliberately left out the description of this mechanism because we think that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to most routing and addressing approaches. You could introduce that already in today's Internet. In contrast, GLI-Split provides a different substitute for mobile IP which does not interact with DNS for the change of the location (see Section 3.7 in http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf ). It is applicable only if two GLI-hosts communicate with each other as this mechanism does depend on the specific routing and addressing architecture. > As it claims, the main benefit of GLI-Split is for nodes move within a > GLI-domain, since it would not bother the outside world. When hosts > move across GLI-domain more changes may be needed. And the upgrades on > hosts are costly, while the tradeoff between their gains needs discussion. GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts and the latter do not need any upgrade. This was a major design goal to avoid costly upgrades which can be an obstacle for deployment. The benefits of GLI-Split are summarized in Section 5 of http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf Some of them are available only for upgraded hosts, others also for classic hosts. Kind regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn From charriesun@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 01:37:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B746B3A6946 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:37:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hOcNshUbONtO for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770923A68E1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so848023qwd.7 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:37:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=UI0xlyFBRlOD4k7LEAYD33GNnhVVFYfTT9907Q52/l4=; b=drEpbd5XgZ7ws/tFF+Q/1nvdscm+d52jUGhQ3oBr59RuGAKMV3yi4108+sgWF/IL4D AxAghPWC+E3fYnJVwWwRAno3KHCJBGyVVeTlRw5hHjv+TQqMcXcS35hQCXsbrZbrc8eA S/Me7f+prQN0OpSlKa7/hwAuzSi6E+JrxBgTI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=soGLAimi4xPd7bH1i+yF4aiUo1No8PGCAKHgtyCJa/3yj+T8XzKK8+sj8Gpq/4DLzO 1vFfJ9fnpY/QGd6ZF/y4ZUFXR+cWIlqXzOLMof+m6lA6jcPnv9/r6Q9HjvfHMRu3zbah LLV5VOS/BjLIrWyAAQPE+tSps8tc5hCTHMTZc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.123.104 with SMTP id o40mr106943vcr.68.1263893835767; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:37:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001190136x6789cab3u74b8468794804044@mail.gmail.com> References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001190136x6789cab3u74b8468794804044@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:37:15 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001190137g35649d99odb020b83fc2070a0@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: RRG , Lixia Zhang Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636d3448b1d606f047d81379e Subject: [rrg] Fwd: Fwd: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:37:21 -0000 --001636d3448b1d606f047d81379e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Charrie Sun Date: 2010/1/19 Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split To: Lixia Zhang Hi Lixia, I think the biggest difference between LISP+ALT and LMS is that mapping nodes in LMS are not only indexing nodes but also the final authorities of mapping data. This correlates tightly with the question that whether the separation should be placed at the core or the edge. In LISP separation work in at the edge to facilitate TE etc, thus letting ETRs to be the mapping authorities would not bring so many problems as those in the cores doing separation. Since in the latter case, if an edge is multihomed to several ISPs and thus connects to ETRs at different ISPs, no ETR would like to store mapping data for its customer and its opponents. However, routers in edge networks may often not hold a whole global routing table and they set default route to their providers to reach the outside world, thus I assume they may not see the scalability problem that serious as core routers. In this sense, edge routers may not have much incentives to upgrade, to be ITRs and ETRs. In LMS the mapping system is independent of ISPs and they charge for their mapping services, forming a new interest group. ISPs as well as edge networks whole join the circle can benefit immediately with few changes (core routers may do tunneling, edge networks need no changes while they are willing to inform mapping information to the mapping system to realize TE). I mainly concerned the economic model here. Compared with ALT, I think we only share the hierarchical struture, while the content the mapping system holds and the economic model is different. Thank you very much for your opinions! Best wishes, Letong 2010/1/19 Lixia Zhang the text version is indeed much better for many people I believe (though > there still seem some strange char's in the text) > > > > On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Charrie Sun wrote: > > Hello all, >> Since no one has written a critique of my LMS, I queried my workmates >> and wrote a critique on it. As many people have pointed out, LMS is a >> mapping mechanism and does not itself constitute a whole solution for the >> scalability problem. Well the mechanism is based on edge-core separations >> and can incorparate with proposals that need a global mapping system, to >> enhance its functionalities. >> I also wrote a brief critique on GLI-Split, since I think the two >> separation planes it clarifies, including the separation between identifier >> and locator and the separation between local and global locator, can meet >> different needs of ISPs and hosts. I had some discussions with Dr. Menth and >> wrote the critique based on the discussions and rethinking. Welcome for >> complement and rectifications on mine. >> Attached is my critiques and warmly welcome for comments. >> > > it seems to me that a major missing issue in LMS critique is an > articulation on the novelty: given this design is long after LISP-ALT, what > are the fundamental differences/new gains in LMS? > > I read through the paper your summary pointed to ( > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05491.html). Section > 5 stated that > > "The idea is similar to LISP+ALT while differs from it in several ways: > (1) As previous stated we place ETRs at the core, while LISP+ALT places > them at the edge; > (2) MNs maintain mapping data instead of ETRs. > (3) the structure is explicitly designed as to the layer number and node > degrees, which is unclear in LISP-ALT. > (4)ITR buffers the arriving packets when its cache failed to find a > mapping. In LISP+ALT now the implementation is just to drop the packets." > > None of the above points looks like essential to me. > > Wonder what I missed? > > Lixia > --001636d3448b1d606f047d81379e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:= Charrie Sun <charriesun@gmail.com>
Da= te: 2010/1/19
Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of LMS and GLI-Split
To: Lixia Zhang &l= t;lixia@cs.ucla.edu>

Hi Lixia,
=A0 I think the biggest difference between LISP+ALT and LMS is that ma= pping nodes in LMS are not only indexing nodes but also the final authoriti= es of mapping data. This correlates tightly with the question that whether = the separation should be placed at the core or the edge. In LISP separation= work in at the edge to facilitate TE etc, thus letting ETRs to be the mapp= ing authorities would not bring so many problems as those in the cores doin= g separation. Since in the latter case, if an edge is multihomed to several= ISPs and thus connects to ETRs=A0at different ISPs, no ETR would like to s= tore mapping data for its customer and its opponents. However, routers in e= dge networks may often not hold a whole global routing table and they set d= efault route to their providers to reach the outside world, thus I assume t= hey may not see the scalability problem that serious as core routers. In th= is sense, edge routers may not have much incentives to upgrade, to be ITRs= =A0and ETRs.
=A0=A0 In LMS the mapping system is independent of ISPs and they charg= e for their mapping services,=A0forming a new interest group.=A0ISPs as wel= l as edge networks=A0whole join the circle=A0can=A0benefit immediately with= few changes (core routers may do tunneling, edge networks need no changes = while they are willing to inform mapping information to the mapping system = to realize TE). I mainly concerned the economic model here.
=A0=A0 Compared with ALT, I think=A0we only share the hierarchical str= uture, while the content the mapping system=A0holds=A0and the=A0economic mo= del is=A0different.
=A0=A0=A0 Thank you very much for your opinions!
=A0
Best wishes,
Letong
=A0
=A0
2010/1/19 Lixia Zhang <lixia@cs.ucla.edu>= ;=20

the text version is indeed much = better for many people I believe (though there still seem some strange char= 's in the text)=20



On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Charrie Sun wrote:

Hello all,
=A0 =A0Since no on= e has written a critique of my LMS, I queried my workmates and wrote a crit= ique on it. As many people have pointed out, LMS is a mapping mechanism and= does not itself constitute a whole solution for the scalability problem. W= ell the mechanism is based on edge-core separations and can incorparate wit= h proposals that need a global mapping system, to enhance its functionaliti= es.
=A0 =A0I also wrote a brief critique on GLI-Split, since I think the two se= paration planes it clarifies, including the separation between identifier a= nd locator and the separation between local and global locator, can meet di= fferent needs of ISPs and hosts. I had some discussions with Dr. Menth and = wrote the critique based on the discussions and rethinking. Welcome for com= plement and rectifications on mine.
=A0 Attached is my critiques and warmly welcome for comments.

it seems to me that a major missing issue in LMS critique is a= n articulation on the novelty: given this design is long after LISP-ALT, wh= at are the fundamental differences/new gains in LMS?

I read through the paper your summary pointed to (htt= p://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05491.html). =A0Sectio= n 5 stated that

"The idea is similar to LISP+ALT while differs from it in several = ways:
(1) As previous stated we place ETRs at the core, while LISP+ALT p= laces them at the edge;
(2) MNs maintain mapping data instead of ETRs. (3) the structure is explicitly designed as to the layer number and node de= grees, which is unclear in LISP-ALT.
(4)ITR buffers the arriving packets= when its cache failed to find a mapping. In LISP+ALT now the implementatio= n is just to drop the packets."

None of the above points looks like essential to me.

Wonder what= I missed?

Lixia


--001636d3448b1d606f047d81379e-- From charriesun@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 02:23:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDE83A68ED for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:23:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UOzyfpjOeJj9 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f178.google.com (mail-qy0-f178.google.com [209.85.221.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD6F3A6846 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so2512479qyk.24 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:23:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=PRVvUSBvU51K3Uw+kTgCudkT9kfdob2WKDwtq+vhhSA=; b=ExPNnCjCEm8BwUV8Ih/AISVO4wvXnkVJ60Fvl2zRt3Vs5MVSZ6LXPd1qHLb2WaSqPU Fl96S4BKLWEvvEIFrtn3w8ETLPILgrKg5Ek0mQs5VN9Pt0AWy/bo363ZwjHzvuyEO63E 4bH2H4cmk/FbKBiOWNhb5AxQiYEOLeXgnhJYo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=a3l3TbfqqOSOLTWWFBtAO/YsNTVYkzjp42jyfLzlhbGwb7YNs1tf8BIw7kxN4g9O1v iruHZA6wgX3LHiud+zh9hDPyms8+U2EaTCI7gkQFJVekwuFZwmDoykHtRRoAU64buyYW pan8ntMu+CCaZMOYtbfmFjxkmkACMY5RP9DEY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.124.38 with SMTP id s38mr2374951vcr.96.1263896593361; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:23:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:23:13 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, RRG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636d344557aec3f047d81db3e Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:23:20 -0000 --001636d344557aec3f047d81db3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Michael, Questions are inline. 2010/1/19 Michael Menth > Dear Sun Letong, > > thanks a lot for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have some clarifyi= ng > comments, see inline. > > Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun Letong >> GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two separation planes: the >> separation between identifier and locator, which is to meet end-users ne= eds >> including mobility; the separation between local and global locator, to = make >> the global routing table scalable. The distinction is needed since ISPs = and >> hosts have different requirements. >> > The distinction makes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a GLI-domain > including the local mapping system, and structural changes inside a > GLI-domain invisible to nodes outside a GLI-domain including the global > mapping system. > > A main drawback of GLI-Split is that it puts too much burden on hosts. >> Before routing a packet received from upper layers, network stacks in ho= sts >> firstly need resolve the DNS name to an IP address; if the IP address is >> GLI-formed, it may further map the identifier extracted from the IP addr= ess >> to the local locator. If the communication is between different GLI-doma= ins, >> hosts need further to map the identifier to the global locator, if the l= ocal >> mapping system does not forward the request to the global mapping system= for >> hosts. This may lead to large delays and for low-powered hosts it may be= come >> unpractical. >> > 1) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either to a local or > global address. They perform only a single conversion. When reading the t= ext > one may think that two conversion steps are required. > Did I miss something, but in the section of communications between differen= t GLI-Domains (section 3.1.2), it is said that when GLI-node queries local mapping system and get a negative answer, it queries the global mapping system. Local mapping system forward the request for GLI-nodes to the globa= l MS is just an option. > 2) The conversion usually does not introduce a "large dealy" as the mappi= ng > infos are cached. The delay is at the host where it is not critical. It's > like DNS lookup, probably faster if the mapping system is more efficient > than DNS (see FIRMS). > Cache cannot solve the problem of "first-packet-delay". And in IPv6, storing location information of all mapping servers (considering the huge indexing space) like FIRMS is unscalable. > 3) This statement suggests that GLI-Split requires host changes which is > not necessarily true. A major objective of GLI-Split is to be > backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded > GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no changes are necessary. Of > course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more benefits than classic IPv6 hosts. T= his > essential aspect is lacking. > > Well what I mean is that compared with the benefits, the upgrades of GLI-hosts are costly. > For communications spanning GLI-domains, hosts can send packets to a >> default GLI-gateway if they receive a negative answer from local mapping >> system, and the default GLI-gateway does the identifier-to-global locato= r >> mapping. >> > That's part of the description. I cannot see how this sentence is related > to the previous or next statement. > > I think through this way burdens can be relieved partly from hosts. > The author argues that the multiple mapping lookups in hosts is for them = to >> do multipath routing, since different destinations (local or global) may >> need different outgoing gateways. However, the gains of multipath routin= g >> and the cost of host burdens, and the corresponding delays, need to be >> further balanced. >> > GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it supports it if needed= . > And there is a clear desire to support multipath routing, just see the > current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP. > > Ok, further reflection is needed on the balance between application needs and corresponding costs. > GLI-hosts need a home address for mobility. I think there=A1=AFs no such = need >> if the DNS system updates in time when GLI-hosts move across GLI-domains= , >> which is less frequent compared with host mobility within a GLI-domain. = The >> DNS updates would not take too long: on one hand, caching time of DNS no= w is >> as small as a few seconds or minutes (for load balance and other >> applications); on the other hand, a mechanism can be devised to trigger >> updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in this case hosts need not map the >> identifier to the global locator since the returned DNS response has tha= t >> information, of course, if they do not need multipath routing. >> > We deliberately left out the description of this mechanism because we thi= nk > that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to most routing and > addressing approaches. I cannot catch up with this sentence, and I cannot see why the mechanism is not beneficial. By updating the DNS data, home-address is unneeded, no matter for communications between GLI-nodes and between GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts. > You could introduce that already in today's Internet. In contrast, > GLI-Split provides a different substitute for mobile IP which does not > interact with DNS for the change of the location (see Section 3.7 in > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-= GLI-Split.pdf). It is applicable only if two GLI-hosts communicate with ea= ch other as > this mechanism does depend on the specific routing and addressing > architecture. > > Question remains as before. > > As it claims, the main benefit of GLI-Split is for nodes move within a >> GLI-domain, since it would not bother the outside world. When hosts move >> across GLI-domain more changes may be needed. And the upgrades on hosts = are >> costly, while the tradeoff between their gains needs discussion. >> > GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts and the latte= r > do not need any upgrade. This was a major design goal to avoid costly > upgrades which can be an obstacle for deployment. The benefits of GLI-Spl= it > are summarized in Section 5 of > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-= GLI-Split.pdf > Some of them are available only for upgraded hosts, others also for class= ic > hosts. > > I think I will learn more about the GLI's benefits on backward compatibility, which I underestimated before. > Kind regards, > > Michael > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > Thank you for your clarification. Best regards, Letong --001636d344557aec3f047d81db3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello=A0Michael,
=A0 Questions are inline.
2010/1/19 Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wue= rzburg.de>
Dear Sun Letong,

thanks a= lot for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have some clarifying comment= s, see inline.

Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun Le= tong
GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two separation planes: = the separation between identifier and locator, which is to meet end-users n= eeds including mobility; the separation between local and global locator, t= o make the global routing table scalable. The distinction is needed since I= SPs and hosts have different requirements.
The distinction makes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a= GLI-domain including the local mapping system, and structural changes insi= de a GLI-domain invisible to nodes outside a GLI-domain including the globa= l mapping system.

A main drawback of GLI-Split is = that it puts too much burden on hosts. Before routing a packet received fro= m upper layers, network stacks in hosts firstly need resolve the DNS name t= o an IP address; if the IP address is GLI-formed, it may further map the id= entifier extracted from the IP address to the local locator. If the communi= cation is between different GLI-domains, hosts need further to map the iden= tifier to the global locator, if the local mapping system does not forward = the request to the global mapping system for hosts. This may lead to large = delays and for low-powered hosts it may become unpractical.
1) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either to= a local or global address. They perform only a single conversion. When rea= ding the text one may think that two conversion steps are required.
=A0
Did I miss something, but=A0in the section of=A0communications between= different GLI-Domains (section 3.1.2), it is said that when GLI-node queri= es local mapping system and get a negative answer, it queries the global ma= pping system. Local mapping system forward the request for GLI-nodes to the= global MS is just an option.
=A0
2) The conversion usually does n= ot introduce a "large dealy" as the mapping infos are cached. The= delay is at the host where it is not critical. It's like DNS lookup, p= robably faster if the mapping system is more efficient than DNS (see FIRMS)= .
=A0
Cache cannot solve the problem of "first-packet-delay". And= =A0in IPv6, storing=A0location information=A0of all mapping servers=A0(cons= idering the huge indexing space) like FIRMS=A0is unscalable.
=A0
3) This statement suggests that = GLI-Split requires host changes which is not necessarily true. A major obje= ctive of GLI-Split is to be backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains ca= n accommodate upgraded GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no change= s are necessary. Of course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more benefits than cla= ssic IPv6 hosts. This essential aspect is lacking.

Well what I mean is that compared with the benefits,=A0the upgrades of= GLI-hosts are costly.
=A0
For communications spanning GLI-= domains, hosts can send packets to a default GLI-gateway if they receive a = negative answer from local mapping system, and the default GLI-gateway does= the identifier-to-global locator mapping.
That's part of the description. I cannot see how this sent= ence is related to the previous or next statement.

=A0
I think through this way burdens can be relieved partly from hosts.
=A0
The author argues that the multi= ple mapping lookups in hosts is for them to do multipath routing, since dif= ferent destinations (local or global) may need different outgoing gateways.= However, the gains of multipath routing and the cost of host burdens, and = the corresponding delays, need to be further balanced.
GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it supports i= t if needed. And there is a clear desire to support multipath routing, just= see the current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP.

=A0
Ok, further reflection=A0is needed=A0on the=A0balance between applicat= ion needs and=A0corresponding costs.
=A0
GLI-hosts need a home address fo= r mobility. I think there=A1=AFs no such need if the DNS system updates in = time when GLI-hosts move across GLI-domains, which is less frequent compare= d with host mobility within a GLI-domain. The DNS updates would not take to= o long: on one hand, caching time of DNS now is as small as a few seconds o= r minutes (for load balance and other applications); on the other hand, a m= echanism can be devised to trigger updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in thi= s case hosts need not map the identifier to the global locator since the re= turned DNS response has that information, of course, if they do not need mu= ltipath routing.
We deliberately left out the description of this mechanism bec= ause we think that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to most r= outing and addressing approaches.
=A0
I cannot=A0catch up with=A0this sentence, and I cannot=A0see=A0why=A0t= he mechanism is not beneficial.=A0By updating the=A0DNS data, home-address = is unneeded,=A0no matter for=A0communications between GLI-nodes and=A0betwe= en GLI-hosts and classic IPv6=A0hosts.=A0
=A0
You could introduce that already= in today's Internet. In contrast, GLI-Split provides a different subst= itute for mobile IP which does not interact with DNS for the change of the = location (see Section 3.7 in http= ://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Sp= lit.pdf ). It is applicable only if =A0two GLI-hosts communicate with e= ach other as this mechanism does depend on the specific routing and address= ing architecture.

=A0
Question remains as before.
=A0

As it claims, the main benefit o= f GLI-Split is for nodes move within a GLI-domain, since it would not bothe= r the outside world. When hosts move across GLI-domain more changes may be = needed. And the upgrades on hosts are costly, while the tradeoff between th= eir gains needs discussion.
GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts an= d the latter do not need any upgrade. This was a major design goal to avoid= costly upgrades which can be an obstacle for deployment. The benefits of G= LI-Split are summarized in Section 5 of
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzb= urg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf
Some of them a= re available only for upgraded hosts, others also for classic hosts.

=A0
I think I will=A0learn more=A0about the=A0GLI's benefits on backwa= rd compatibility, which=A0I underestimated before.
=A0
Kind regards,

=A0 Michael=

--
Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Profess= or
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-970= 74 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (= +49)-931/888-6632
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


Thank you for your clarification.
=A0
=A0
Best regards,
Letong
--001636d344557aec3f047d81db3e-- From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de Tue Jan 19 03:10:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C14A3A6911 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:10:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1rKTXW7uir+v for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329783A6822 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88425AF0D; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id B301C5AF0A; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:42 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Received: from [132.187.12.151] (win3151.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.151]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9454D5CE93; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B559332.8030805@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:42 +0100 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charrie Sun References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:10:51 -0000 Dear Sun Letong, Charrie Sun schrieb: > Hello Michael, > Questions are inline. > 2010/1/19 Michael Menth > > > Dear Sun Letong, > > thanks a lot for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have some > clarifying comments, see inline. > > Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun Letong > GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two separation > planes: the separation between identifier and locator, which > is to meet end-users needs including mobility; the separation > between local and global locator, to make the global routing > table scalable. The distinction is needed since ISPs and hosts > have different requirements. > > The distinction makes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a > GLI-domain including the local mapping system, and structural > changes inside a GLI-domain invisible to nodes outside a > GLI-domain including the global mapping system. > > A main drawback of GLI-Split is that it puts too much burden > on hosts. Before routing a packet received from upper layers, > network stacks in hosts firstly need resolve the DNS name to > an IP address; if the IP address is GLI-formed, it may further > map the identifier extracted from the IP address to the local > locator. If the communication is between different > GLI-domains, hosts need further to map the identifier to the > global locator, if the local mapping system does not forward > the request to the global mapping system for hosts. This may > lead to large delays and for low-powered hosts it may become > unpractical. > > 1) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either to a > local or global address. They perform only a single conversion. > When reading the text one may think that two conversion steps are > required. > > > Did I miss something, but in the section of communications between > different GLI-Domains (section 3.1.2), it is said that when GLI-node > queries local mapping system and get a negative answer, it queries the > global mapping system. Local mapping system forward the request for > GLI-nodes to the global MS is just an option. There may be two mapping lookups but only one conversion from identifier address to either local or global identifier. > > > 2) The conversion usually does not introduce a "large dealy" as > the mapping infos are cached. The delay is at the host where it is > not critical. It's like DNS lookup, probably faster if the mapping > system is more efficient than DNS (see FIRMS). > > > Cache cannot solve the problem of "first-packet-delay". And in IPv6, > storing location information of all mapping servers (considering the > huge indexing space) like FIRMS is unscalable. The first-packet-delay in hosts is not crucial as packets do not need to be stored in intermediate nodes. Describing it as "large delay" sounds like tremendously worse than DNS-lookup delay which is rather of the same quality. > > > 3) This statement suggests that GLI-Split requires host changes > which is not necessarily true. A major objective of GLI-Split is > to be backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains can accommodate > upgraded GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no changes are > necessary. Of course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more benefits than > classic IPv6 hosts. This essential aspect is lacking. > > Well what I mean is that compared with the benefits, the upgrades of > GLI-hosts are costly. > > > For communications spanning GLI-domains, hosts can send > packets to a default GLI-gateway if they receive a negative > answer from local mapping system, and the default GLI-gateway > does the identifier-to-global locator mapping. > > That's part of the description. I cannot see how this sentence is > related to the previous or next statement. > > > I think through this way burdens can be relieved partly from hosts. Unburdening intermediate hosts is more important than unburdening hosts as they have time to do lookup operations etc. without storing packets. If you want, you can mention the contrary. GLI-gateways need to substitute local source addresses by global source addresses, but a lookup is not required for that operation. > > > The author argues that the multiple mapping lookups in hosts > is for them to do multipath routing, since different > destinations (local or global) may need different outgoing > gateways. However, the gains of multipath routing and the cost > of host burdens, and the corresponding delays, need to be > further balanced. > > GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it supports it if > needed. And there is a clear desire to support multipath routing, > just see the current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP. > > > Ok, further reflection is needed on the balance between application > needs and corresponding costs. As I said, the mechanisms adds more complexity only if it is used in case it is needed. Potential multipath support should not be viewed as a disadvantage! > > > GLI-hosts need a home address for mobility. I think there¡¯s > no such need if the DNS system updates in time when GLI-hosts > move across GLI-domains, which is less frequent compared with > host mobility within a GLI-domain. The DNS updates would not > take too long: on one hand, caching time of DNS now is as > small as a few seconds or minutes (for load balance and other > applications); on the other hand, a mechanism can be devised > to trigger updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in this case > hosts need not map the identifier to the global locator since > the returned DNS response has that information, of course, if > they do not need multipath routing. > > We deliberately left out the description of this mechanism because > we think that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to > most routing and addressing approaches. > > > I cannot catch up with this sentence, and I cannot see why the > mechanism is not beneficial. By updating the DNS data, home-address is > unneeded, no matter for communications between GLI-nodes and between > GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts. Let me try again. Updating DNS with the current location instead of using mobile IP is a general mechanism which could be done whenever DNS is in use - actually even today (but it's not of course!). This feature can be easily added to any architecture because it does not really depend on it. It can also be added to GLI-Split if it is desired. Your mentioned mechanism depends on how fast DNS can be updated. In the GLI-Split paper, we propose an alternative mechanism for GLI-hosts that bypasses DNS. > > > You could introduce that already in today's Internet. In contrast, > GLI-Split provides a different substitute for mobile IP which does > not interact with DNS for the change of the location (see Section > 3.7 in > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf > > ). It is applicable only if two GLI-hosts communicate with each > other as this mechanism does depend on the specific routing and > addressing architecture. > > > Question remains as before. Hm, which question? > > > > As it claims, the main benefit of GLI-Split is for nodes move > within a GLI-domain, since it would not bother the outside > world. When hosts move across GLI-domain more changes may be > needed. And the upgrades on hosts are costly, while the > tradeoff between their gains needs discussion. > > GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts and > the latter do not need any upgrade. This was a major design goal > to avoid costly upgrades which can be an obstacle for deployment. > The benefits of GLI-Split are summarized in Section 5 of > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf > > Some of them are available only for upgraded hosts, others also > for classic hosts. > > > I think I will learn more about the GLI's benefits on backward > compatibility, which I underestimated before. Feel free to ask if you have any questions! Regards, Michael > > > Kind regards, > > Michael > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > > Thank you for your clarification. > > > Best regards, > Letong -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn From HeinerHummel@aol.com Tue Jan 19 03:34:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C60E3A6857 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:34:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.935, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_GIF_ATTACH=1.42] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rOkoYLhFDax for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from omr-m32.mx.aol.com (omr-m32.mx.aol.com [64.12.143.152]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AADA3A6823 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-da02.mx.aol.com (imo-da02.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.200]) by omr-m32.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0JBYPNR025865; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:34:25 -0500 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-da02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id f.be1.722a8dad (37175); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.144]) by cia-ma05.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA052-5bad4b5598b8aa; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:34:20 -0500 Received: from magic-m03.mail.aol.com (magic-m03.mail.aol.com [172.21.172.74]) by smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA014-5bad4b5598b8aa; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:34:16 -0500 From: heinerhummel@aol.com Message-ID: <667.4ca69546.3886f2b8@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:34:16 EST To: xuxh@huawei.com, lixia@cs.ucla.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_667.4ca69546.3886f2b8_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5021 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 95.91.134.11 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.172.74 X-AOL-SENDER: HeinerHummel@aol.com Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:34:49 -0000 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My critique:
Pro(?):
ITU-T will be happy to provide E164 country codes.
Con:
The political impact: Countries come an go, are formed by unific= ations=20 and separations.
Countries may be shut off from the rest.
 
And: The Istanbul-effect will be well installed - of course not= up the=20 the level of continents but up to the level of countries.
 
There are many more disadvantages but shared by all the other=20 proposals.
Heiner
 
 
In einer eMail vom 19.01.2010 08:33:27 Westeurop=C3=A4ische Normalzei= t schreibt=20 xuxh@huawei.com:

 

> -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5= =8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----

> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<= SPAN lang=3DEN-US>: Lixia Zhang=20 [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu]

> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6= =E9=97=B4: 2010=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8819<= SPAN lang=3DEN-US>=E6=97=A5 12:23

> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<= SPAN lang=3DEN-US>: Xu Xiaohu

> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: RRG; Paul=20 Francis

> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [rrg] critique of=20 RANGI

>

>

> On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Xu Xia= ohu=20 wrote:

> >> .....

> >> Hi Paul,

> >>

> >> I did not know that you we= re working on RANGI=20 critique; as I

> >> mentioned

> >> to Xiaohu I could do one.<= /SPAN>

> >> So what I just did now is= some minor additions to=20 your text

> >> (1)pointing out that RAGNI= ID is 24-byte=20 long,

> >

> > No, RANGI ID is 16-byte long.= The following is a=20 demonstration of

> > the RANGI

> > ID.

> >

> >     &= nbsp; |<------- n bits=20 --------->|<-- 128-n bits-->|

> >     &= nbsp;=20 +--------------------------+-----------------+

> >     &= nbsp; | Administrative=20 Domain ID |   Local Host ID |

> >     &= nbsp;=20 +--------------------------+-----------------+

> >     &= nbsp;=20 |            = ;            &= nbsp;  =20 \

> >     &= nbsp;=20 |            = ;            &= nbsp;    =20 \

> >     = =20  |           = ;            &= nbsp;       =20 \

> >     &= nbsp;=20 |            = ;            &= nbsp;         =20 \

> >     &= nbsp;=20 |            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;=20 \

> >     &= nbsp;=20 +-----------+-------------+-------------+

> >     &= nbsp; | Country ID|=20 Authority ID| Region ID   | <------Example

> >     &= nbsp;=20 +-----------+-------------+-------------+

>

> sorry, I missed the "-n" fine print= :(

> In your RRG presentation at Hiroshima= , the slide says n=3D64.  if=20 that

> is still the case, then your local= hostID would have the same=20 length

> as ILNP EID (though the latter requ= ires global uniqueness, and=20 I

> suppose yours not)

 

Yes. To simplify the implementation, we= use CGA as host identifier=20 currently. Hence the value of n is set to 64.

 

> > (2)doing ID looking

> >> using DHT raises trust iss= ue;

> >

> > In fact, we use the reverse DN= S infrastructure as the=20 id/locator

> > mapping

> > system, while the DHT is optio= nally used at the bottom=20 level of this

> > infrastructure to make the aut= horitative server scale=20 better.

>

> The Hiroshima RRG talk showed the= other way around=20 ...

>

> > This is my

> > assumption of a hierarchical= DHT. IMHO, the hierarchical=20 DHT doesn't

> > mean

> > DHT should be used in each lev= el.

>

> DHT is used for lookups for systems= with very large number of=20 entries.

> With a hierarchical system, where= the bottom level is not that=20 big, I

> wonder what is the value of using= DHT in the first=20 place.

 

= I don't want= to introduce too=20 many levels in the hierarchy. Hence, in a given administrative domain (e= .g., a=20 state or a province), there may be a lot of entries to=20 manage.

=  

> I did not following the first sente= nce below (what do you mean=20 by

> using "AD ID as a key"?)

 

= A detailed= example is given as=20 follows:

=  

= 1. An AD ID= is expressed as=20 "country-code.authority-code.region-code" by inserting dots between adja= cent=20 fields, then it is transformed into a FQDN format string as=20 "region-code.authority-code.country-code".

= 2. The above= FQDN format=20 string is used as a key in the reverse DNS infrastructure to locate the= =20 corresponding authoritative server or the DHT ring for that AD. If DHT= is used=20 to scale the bottom-level authoritative name servers, the Local Host ID= part=20 is used as a key to locate the corresponding peer which stores the mappi= ng of=20 that identifier.

= 3. The Local= Host ID part is=20 used as a key to locate the matching mapping entry in the mapping table= of the=20 corresponding name server or the corresponding=20 peer.

=  

= The followin= g figure is a=20 demonstration of the mapping system to be used in=20 RANGI.

=  

=

=  

=  

> > The structured AD ID is used= as a key in the reverse=20 DNS

> > infrastructure to

> > locate the corresponding super= authoritative server (or=20 the

> > corresponding

> > DHT ring when using DHT to mak= e the authoritative server=20 scale

> > better) which

> > maintains mappings for the ide= ntifiers belonging to=20 that

> > Administration

> > Domain. If DHT is used to scal= e the authoritative server,=20 the Local

> > Host ID

> > (flat label) is then used as= a key in that corresponding=20 DHT ring to

> > locate

> > the node which holds the mappi= ng for that identifier.=20 Hence, this

> > mapping

> > system has reasonable business= model and clear trust=20 boundaries.

>

> Wonder if you have this described= somewhere?

> I did not find it in=20 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-xu-rangi-01.txt

 

= Details abou= t the id/locator=20 mapping system will be included in that draft or described in a separate= draft=20 soon.

=  

> >> .....

> >> RANGI critique

> >> ......

> >> More thought is

> >> needed as to what constitu= tes these levels, and what=20 is the trust

> >> relation among the ID-Loca= tor resolution servers that=20 use DHT for

> >> lookup.

> >>

> >> The RANGI draft suggests= FQDN->ID lookup through=20 DNS, and separately

> >> an ID->locator lookup= which may be DNS or may be=20 something else.

> >> This

> >

> > Yes, the reverse DNS is used= as an ID->locator mapping=20 system in

> > RANGI, with

> > this approach there is no need= for every host to have a=20 unique FQDN.

>

> this sounds like as if having a FQD= N for each host a=20 drawback?

 

= Not sure whe= ther it is a=20 drawback. However, since there is already a global unique host identifie= r for=20 each host in RANGI, which can be easily used for id->locator lookup,= it=20 seems no need to assign each host a unique FQDN.

=  

> >> represents additional cost= compared to ILNP design=20 where FQDN lookup

> >> produces both ID and locat= ors. Can one quantify the=20 gain by one

> >> additional lookup to justi= fy the=20 cost?

> >

> > Yes, I know. However, ILNP des= ign requires that every=20 host should

> > have a

> > unique FQDN for ID and locator= lookup.

>

> could you elaborate what may be the= problem with this as you=20 see?

 

The reason I can thought why ILNP requir= es each host has a unique=20 FQDN is: the flat EIDs to which the sessions are bound are not suitable= for=20 EID->Locator resolution, so another namespace (i.e., FQDN) is referre= d=20 to.

 

My doubt is how a legacy host continues= the communication to an=20 ILNP-aware host once the latter changes its locator due to mobility or= =20 re-homing event. Note that the legacy host will not resort the DNS to ge= t the=20 new locator of the ILNP-aware host.

 

> >

> >> Unfortunately the early-ad= opter incentive for host=20 upgrade strikes me

> >> as weak at best.

> >

> > We have the RANGI-PROXY [I-D.d= raft-xu-rangi-proxy-01]=20 mechanisms

> > with which

> > legacy hosts could initiate co= mmunications to RANGI-aware=20 hosts, and

> > vice

> > verse.

>

> Is it fair to say that RANGI-PROXY= is a similar idea to LISP's=20 PTRs?

 

To be more accurate, the site proxy is= similar to LISP ITR while=20 the transit proxy is similar to LISP PTR.

 

Xiaohu

 

> I am trying to identify commonaliti= es among=20 proposals.

>

>=20 Lixia



___________________________________= ____________
rrg=20 mailing=20 list
rrg@irtf.org
http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/rrg
 
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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qozYZWiWF7cp for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from letter.sics.se (letter.sics.se [193.10.64.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDF33A6823 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.10.66.36] (bit.sics.se [193.10.66.36]) (Authenticated sender: jav@sics.se) by letter.sics.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A204340124 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:47:01 +0100 (CET) From: Javier Ubillos To: Routing Research Group Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-81aYzpdwzQjXCZIogAH+" Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:46:58 +0100 Message-ID: <1263901618.3397.80.camel@bit> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.1 Subject: [rrg] Analysis/Critique of Name-Based Sockets (revision) X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:47:07 -0000 --=-81aYzpdwzQjXCZIogAH+ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-ImmI96BtBw0/45I/8ZqM" --=-ImmI96BtBw0/45I/8ZqM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have updated the critique. Changes: * Rephrasing - clarifications * Clarified that transtion to 100% PA-addresses is unlikeley. Some use of PI-addresses may be motivated. The contribution is the increased motivation to move to PA-addresses as provider independence relies less and less on actual PI-addressing. * Name-based sockets _are_ backwards compatible. If any one wants to contribute, I'll happily accept additions/changes and merge them. // Javier --=-ImmI96BtBw0/45I/8ZqM Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="critique of name-based sockets.txt" Content-Type: text/plain; name="critique of name-based sockets.txt"; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TmFtZS1CYXNlZCBTb2NrZXRzIENyaXRpcXVlDQoNCk5hbWUtYmFzZWQgc29ja2V0cyBjb250cmli dXRpb24gdG8gdGhlIHJvdXRpbmcgc2NhbGFiaWxpdHkgcHJvYmxlbSBpcyBwcm92aWRpbmcgZW5k IGhvc3RzIHdpdGggYSBuZXR3b3JrIGludGVyZmFjZSB3aGljaCBtYWtlcyB0aGUgYXBwbGljYXRp b25zIGFkZHJlc3MtYWdub3N0aWMuIFRoZSBuYW1lIGFic3RyYWN0aW9uIGFsbG93cyB0aGUgaG9z dHMgdG8gdXNlIGFueSB0eXBlIG9mIGxvY2F0b3IsIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IG9mIGZvcm1hdCBvciBw cm92aWRlci4gVGhpcyBpbmNyZWFzZXMgdGhlIG1vdGl2YXRpb24gYW5kIHVzYWJpbGl0eSBvZiBQ QSBhZGRyZXNzZXMuIFNvbWUgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLCBpbiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIGJvb3RzdHJhcHBp bmcgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLCBtYXkgc3RpbGwgcmVxdWlyZSBoYXJkIGNvZGVkIElQIGFkZHJlc3Nl cywgYW5kIGFzIHN1Y2ggd2lsbCBzdGlsbCBtb3RpdmF0ZSB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIFBJIGFkZHJlc3Nl cy4gVGhlIHByb2plY3RlZCByZXN1bHQgaXMgYSBkZWNyZWFzZWQgcmVsaWFuY2Ugb24gUEkgYWRk cmVzc2VzLCBhbGxvd2luZyBhIGdyZWF0ZXIgdXNlIG9mIFBBIGFkZHJlc3Nlcy4NCg0KRGVwbG95 bWVudDoNClRoZSBtYWluIGluY2VudGl2ZXMgYW5kIGRyaXZlcnMgYXJlIGdlYXJlZCB0b3dhcmRz IHRoZSB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIG9mIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUgbmFtZS1iYXNlZCBzb2NrZXRz LiBOZXcgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIGdhaW4gYmVuZWZpdHMgcXVpY2tseSBhbmQgYXJlIGhlbmNlIGV4 cGVjdGVkIHRvIG1ha2UgYSBmYXN0ZXIgdHJhbnNpdGlvbi4gTGVnYWN5IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBh cmUgZXhwZWN0ZWQgdG8gbWlncmF0ZSB0byB0aGUgbmV3IEFQSSBpbiBhIHNsb3dlciBwYWNlLCBh cyB0aGUgbmFtZS1iYXNlZCBzb2NrZXRzIGFyZSBiYWNrd2FyZHMgY29tcGF0aWJsZSwgdGhpcyBj YW4gaGFwcGVuIGluIGFuIHBlci1ob3N0IGZhc2hpb24uIEFsc28sIG5vdCBhbGwgYXBwbGljYXRp b25zIGNhbiBiZSBwb3J0ZWQgdG8gYSBGUUROIGRlcGVuZGVudCBpbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZSwgZS5n LiBETlMgZnVuY3Rpb25zLiBUaGlzIGh1cmRsZSBpcyBtYW5hZ2VhYmxlLCBhbmQgbWF5IG5vdCBi ZSBhIGRlZmluaXRlIG9ic3RhY2xlIGZvciB0aGUgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiBvZiBhIHdob2xlIGRvbWFp biwgYnV0IGl0IG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlIHRha2VuIGludG8gYWNjb3VudCB3aGVuIHN0cml2aW5nIGZv ciBtb2JpbGl0eS9tdWx0aS1ob21pbmcgb2YgYW4gZW50aXJlIHNpdGUuIFRoZSB0cmFuc2l0aW9u IG9mIGZ1bmN0aW9ucyBvbiBpbmRpdmlkdWFsIGhvc3RzIG1heSBiZSB0cml2aWFsLCBlaXRoZXIg dGhyb3VnaCB1cGdyYWRlcy9jaGFuZ2VzIHRvIHRoZSBPUyBvciBhcyBsaW5rZWQgbGlicmFyaWVz LCBob3dldmVyLCB1cGdyYWRlZCBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgcmVxdWlyZSBzdXBwb3J0IGZyb20gYWxs IGludGVyYWN0aW5nIGhvc3RzLiBUaGlzIGNhbiBzdGlsbCBoYXBwZW4gaW5jcmVtZW50YWxseSwg YnV0IGl0IGRvZXMgcmVxdWlyZSB0aGUgc2VydmVyIGluIGEgY2xpZW50L3NlcnZlciBhcHBsaWNh dGlvbiB0byBtYWludGFpbiBib3RoIGFuIHVwZ3JhZGVkIGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgYSBub24tdXBncmFk ZWQgZnVuY3Rpb24gZHVyaW5nIHRoZSB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIHBoYXNlLg0KDQpFZGdlLW5ldHdvcmtz Og0KVGhlIG5hbWUtYmFzZWQgc29ja2V0cyByZWx5IG9uIHRoZSB0cmFuc2l0aW9uIG9mIGluZGl2 aWR1YWwgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLCB0aGUgbmFtZS1iYXNlZCBzb2NrZXRzIGFyZSBiYWNrd2FyZHMg Y29tcGF0aWJsZSwgaGVuY2UgaXQgZG9lcyBub3QgcmVxdWlyZSBiaWxhdGVyYWwgdXBncmFkZXMu IFRoaXMgZG9lcyBhbGxvdyBlYWNoIGhvc3QgdG8gbWlncmF0ZSBpdHMgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIGlu ZGVwZW5kZW50bHkuIEhvd2V2ZXIsIHRoaXMgbWlnaHQgbm90IGltcGx5IHRoYXQgYSB3aG9sZSBl ZGdlLXNpdGUgbWF5IGFjY2VwdCBQQSBhZGRyZXNzZXMgb25seS4gTmFtZS1iYXNlZCBzb2NrZXRz IG1heSBtYWtlIGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgY2xpZW50IGFnbm9zdGljIHRvIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JraW5n IG1lZGl1bSwgYmUgaXQgUEEvUEkgSVAtYWRkcmVzc2VzIG9yIGluIGEgdGhlIGZ1dHVyZSBhbiBl bnRpcmVseSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgbmV0d29ya2luZyBtZWRpdW0uIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGFuIGVudGlyZSBl ZGdlLW5ldHdvcmssIHdpdGggaW50ZXJuYWwgYW5kIGV4dGVybmFsIHNlcnZpY2VzIHdpbGwgbm90 IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gbWFrZSBhIGNvbXBsZXRlIHRyYW5zaXRpb24gaW4gdGhlIG5lYXIgZnV0dXJl Lg0KDQpJbiBzaG9ydCwgbmV3IHNlcnZpY2VzIG1heSBiZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCB1c2luZyBuYW1l LWJhc2VkIHNvY2tldHMsIG9sZCBzZXJ2aWNlcyBtYXkgYmUgcG9ydGVkLiBOYW1lLWJhc2VkIHNv Y2tldHMgcHJvdmlkZSBhbiBpbmNyZWFzZWQgbW90aXZhdGlvbiB0byBtb3ZlIHRvIFBBLWFkZHJl c3NlcyBhcyBhY3R1YWwgcHJvdmlkZXIgaW5kZXBlbmRlbmNlIHJlbGllcyBsZXNzIGFuZCBsZXNz IG9uIFBJLWFkZHJlc3NpbmcuDQoNCg0KDQo= --=-ImmI96BtBw0/45I/8ZqM-- --=-81aYzpdwzQjXCZIogAH+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAktVm68ACgkQGBo5FLRz4gpfCACgmKv0xiGlmyy6o5JUGT+LSbHE GsAAnjS71PGmYrCqkUF9NK8rNzlrfxot =/5Vq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-81aYzpdwzQjXCZIogAH+-- From charriesun@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 03:53:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E703A6A69 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:53:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UoDcB6I-MjMN for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.221.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EE13A6A6E for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so2278857qyk.7 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:53:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zlCLYZUi4v8JERb3CIrjo028Vynn35ONylPF4029z4I=; b=riMbn9iG6Z2v4DHyfr7V/YCOdsyz/miOEo8s7PxGrb9sU1Kpe1JVNJqztI81n7oRXt HLhmaEaoetDluFwlE1SvahgEjyNTWDrlsrplJumtm8jy3ZemNEOv/7xnJs+ng6XACzIf zWAwetATknnQSYGBPorxYRScqVa4X8M3SVE/c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Pau3HYh26UwhqMh6VZo1UnvFZODi+v+GYhNJo4hhBjjEwArI0EVORW+j3o4sDlUpCB EnMSyID5Q2TqX/rSe63B2wqAo01pidJIrLirua/sxOclf09Wpcc4p0RFDd5412rxOgDw rrJ6U9x5mGWt96kjJiLu3r8XogRR7jJ8Wgcwc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.125.103 with SMTP id x39mr82258vcr.10.1263901985879; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:53:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B559332.8030805@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> <4B559332.8030805@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:53:05 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001190353p43e0f499ld8fe45f69bd92409@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, RRG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636d34b67e6368e047d831ce4 Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:53:13 -0000 --001636d34b67e6368e047d831ce4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael: 2010/1/19 Michael Menth > Dear Sun Letong, > > Charrie Sun schrieb: > >> Hello Michael, >> Questions are inline. >> 2010/1/19 Michael Menth > menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>> >> >> >> Dear Sun Letong, >> >> thanks a lot for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have some >> clarifying comments, see inline. >> >> Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun Letong >> GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two separation >> planes: the separation between identifier and locator, which >> is to meet end-users needs including mobility; the separation >> between local and global locator, to make the global routing >> table scalable. The distinction is needed since ISPs and hosts >> have different requirements. >> >> The distinction makes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a >> GLI-domain including the local mapping system, and structural >> changes inside a GLI-domain invisible to nodes outside a >> GLI-domain including the global mapping system. >> >> A main drawback of GLI-Split is that it puts too much burden >> on hosts. Before routing a packet received from upper layers, >> network stacks in hosts firstly need resolve the DNS name to >> an IP address; if the IP address is GLI-formed, it may further >> map the identifier extracted from the IP address to the local >> locator. If the communication is between different >> GLI-domains, hosts need further to map the identifier to the >> global locator, if the local mapping system does not forward >> the request to the global mapping system for hosts. This may >> lead to large delays and for low-powered hosts it may become >> unpractical. >> >> 1) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either to a >> local or global address. They perform only a single conversion. >> When reading the text one may think that two conversion steps are >> required. >> >> Did I miss something, but in the section of communications between >> different GLI-Domains (section 3.1.2), it is said that when GLI-node que= ries >> local mapping system and get a negative answer, it queries the global >> mapping system. Local mapping system forward the request for GLI-nodes t= o >> the global MS is just an option. >> > There may be two mapping lookups but only one conversion from identifier > address to either local or global identifier. > > > >> 2) The conversion usually does not introduce a "large dealy" as >> the mapping infos are cached. The delay is at the host where it is >> not critical. It's like DNS lookup, probably faster if the mapping >> system is more efficient than DNS (see FIRMS). >> >> Cache cannot solve the problem of "first-packet-delay". And in IPv6, >> storing location information of all mapping servers (considering the hug= e >> indexing space) like FIRMS is unscalable. >> > The first-packet-delay in hosts is not crucial as packets do not need to = be > stored in intermediate nodes. Describing it as "large delay" sounds like > tremendously worse than DNS-lookup delay which is rather of the same > quality. > > It is no worse than DNS-lookup in general, but the delay itself would be troublesome. I do not understand why the first-packet-delay is not crucial for hosts. Why because of that packets not need to be stored in intermediat= e nodes? If the end host itself buffer the packets whose mapping is unresolved, large delay would lead waiting packets overflow the buffer; if it does not, large delay may cause packet loss. Is it not important? > > >> 3) This statement suggests that GLI-Split requires host changes >> which is not necessarily true. A major objective of GLI-Split is >> to be backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains can accommodate >> upgraded GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no changes are >> necessary. Of course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more benefits than >> classic IPv6 hosts. This essential aspect is lacking. >> >> Well what I mean is that compared with the benefits, the upgrades of >> GLI-hosts are costly. >> >> For communications spanning GLI-domains, hosts can send >> packets to a default GLI-gateway if they receive a negative >> answer from local mapping system, and the default GLI-gateway >> does the identifier-to-global locator mapping. >> >> That's part of the description. I cannot see how this sentence is >> related to the previous or next statement. >> >> I think through this way burdens can be relieved partly from hosts. >> > Unburdening intermediate hosts is more important than unburdening hosts a= s > they have time to do lookup operations etc. without storing packets. If y= ou > want, you can mention the contrary. GLI-gateways need to substitute local > source addresses by global source addresses, but a lookup is not required > for that operation. > > > > > >> The author argues that the multiple mapping lookups in hosts >> is for them to do multipath routing, since different >> destinations (local or global) may need different outgoing >> gateways. However, the gains of multipath routing and the cost >> of host burdens, and the corresponding delays, need to be >> further balanced. >> >> GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it supports it if >> needed. And there is a clear desire to support multipath routing, >> just see the current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP. >> >> Ok, further reflection is needed on the balance between application nee= ds >> and corresponding costs. >> > As I said, the mechanisms adds more complexity only if it is used in case > it is needed. Potential multipath support should not be viewed as a > disadvantage! > > > >> GLI-hosts need a home address for mobility. I think there=A1=AFs >> no such need if the DNS system updates in time when GLI-hosts >> move across GLI-domains, which is less frequent compared with >> host mobility within a GLI-domain. The DNS updates would not >> take too long: on one hand, caching time of DNS now is as >> small as a few seconds or minutes (for load balance and other >> applications); on the other hand, a mechanism can be devised >> to trigger updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in this case >> hosts need not map the identifier to the global locator since >> the returned DNS response has that information, of course, if >> they do not need multipath routing. >> >> We deliberately left out the description of this mechanism because >> we think that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to >> most routing and addressing approaches. >> I cannot catch up with this sentence, and I cannot see why the mechanis= m >> is not beneficial. By updating the DNS data, home-address is unneeded, n= o >> matter for communications between GLI-nodes and between GLI-hosts and >> classic IPv6 hosts. >> > Let me try again. Updating DNS with the current location instead of using > mobile IP is a general mechanism which could be done whenever DNS is in u= se > - actually even today (but it's not of course!). This feature can be easi= ly > added to any architecture because it does not really depend on it. It can > also be added to GLI-Split if it is desired. Your mentioned mechanism > depends on how fast DNS can be updated. In the GLI-Split paper, we propos= e > an alternative mechanism for GLI-hosts that bypasses DNS. > > I think that updating DNS would make home-address unneeded, and more importantly, hosts may resolve the domain name and get the GLI address whic= h already contains the valid global locator, and hosts need not query the global mapping system for that information once more. > >> You could introduce that already in today's Internet. In contrast, >> GLI-Split provides a different substitute for mobile IP which does >> not interact with DNS for the change of the location (see Section >> 3.7 in >> >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth= -GLI-Split.pdf >> < >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/%7Ementh/Publications/papers/Men= th-GLI-Split.pdf> >> >> >> ). It is applicable only if two GLI-hosts communicate with each >> other as this mechanism does depend on the specific routing and >> addressing architecture. >> >> Question remains as before. >> > Hm, which question? > > Hm... The above question. > >> >> As it claims, the main benefit of GLI-Split is for nodes move >> within a GLI-domain, since it would not bother the outside >> world. When hosts move across GLI-domain more changes may be >> needed. And the upgrades on hosts are costly, while the >> tradeoff between their gains needs discussion. >> >> GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts and >> the latter do not need any upgrade. This was a major design goal >> to avoid costly upgrades which can be an obstacle for deployment. >> The benefits of GLI-Split are summarized in Section 5 of >> >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth= -GLI-Split.pdf >> < >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/%7Ementh/Publications/papers/Men= th-GLI-Split.pdf> >> >> >> Some of them are available only for upgraded hosts, others also >> for classic hosts. >> >> I think I will learn more about the GLI's benefits on backward >> compatibility, which I underestimated before. >> > > Feel free to ask if you have any questions! > > Regards, > > Michael > > > >> Kind regards, >> >> Michael >> >> -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor >> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science >> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 >> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 >> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >> >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn >> >> >> Thank you for your clarification. >> Best regards, >> Letong >> > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > Best regards, Leong --001636d34b67e6368e047d831ce4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael:

2010/1/19 Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wue= rzburg.de>
Dear Sun Letong,

Charrie = Sun schrieb:
Hello Michael,
=A0Questions are inline.
2010/= 1/19 Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de <mailto:menth@infor= matik.uni-wuerzburg.de>>=20


=A0 =A0Dear Sun Letong,

=A0 =A0thanks a lo= t for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have some
=A0 =A0clarifying = comments, see inline.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun L= etong
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two sep= aration
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0planes: the separation between identifier and locator, which=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0is to meet end-users needs including mobility; the separ= ation
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0between local and global locator, to make the globa= l routing
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0table scalable. The distinction is needed since= ISPs and hosts
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0have different requirements.

=A0 =A0The distinction m= akes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a
=A0 =A0GLI-domain includin= g the local mapping system, and structural
=A0 =A0changes inside a GLI-d= omain invisible to nodes outside a
=A0 =A0GLI-domain including the global mapping system.

=A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0A main drawback of GLI-Split is that it puts too much burden
=A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0on hosts. Before routing a packet received from upper layers,
=A0= =A0 =A0 =A0network stacks in hosts firstly need resolve the DNS name to =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0an IP address; if the IP address is GLI-formed, it may furth= er
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0map the identifier extracted from the IP address to th= e local
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0locator. If the communication is between differen= t
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0GLI-domains, hosts need further to map the identifier t= o the
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0global locator, if the local mapping system does not forward=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the request to the global mapping system for hosts. This= may
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0lead to large delays and for low-powered hosts it ma= y become
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0unpractical.

=A0 =A01) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either to a=
=A0 =A0local or global address. They perform only a single conversion.<= br>=A0 =A0When reading the text one may think that two conversion steps are=
=A0 =A0required.

=A0Did I miss something, but in the section of communications between d= ifferent GLI-Domains (section 3.1.2), it is said that when GLI-node queries= local mapping system and get a negative answer, it queries the global mapp= ing system. Local mapping system forward the request for GLI-nodes to the g= lobal MS is just an option.
There may be two mapping lookups but only one conv= ersion from identifier address to either local or global identifier.=20


=A0
=A0 =A02) The conversion = usually does not introduce a "large dealy" as
=A0 =A0the mappi= ng infos are cached. The delay is at the host where it is
=A0 =A0not critical. It's like DNS lookup, probably faster if the mappi= ng
=A0 =A0system is more efficient than DNS (see FIRMS).

=A0Cache= cannot solve the problem of "first-packet-delay". And in IPv6, s= toring location information of all mapping servers (considering the huge in= dexing space) like FIRMS is unscalable.
The first-packet-delay in hosts is not crucial as packet= s do not need to be stored in intermediate nodes. Describing it as "la= rge delay" sounds like tremendously worse than DNS-lookup delay which = is rather of the same quality.=20

=A0
It is no worse than DNS-lookup in general, but the delay itself would = be troublesome. I do not understand why the first-packet-delay is not cruci= al for hosts. Why because of=A0that=A0packets not need to be stored in inte= rmediate nodes? If the end host itself buffer the packets whose mapping is = unresolved, large delay would lead waiting packets overflow the buffer; if = it does not, large delay may cause packet loss. Is it not important?
=A0

=A0
=A0 =A03) This statement = suggests that GLI-Split requires host changes
=A0 =A0which is not necess= arily true. A major objective of GLI-Split is
=A0 =A0to be backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains can accommodate=A0 =A0upgraded GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no changes are=
=A0 =A0necessary. Of course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more benefits tha= n
=A0 =A0classic IPv6 hosts. This essential aspect is lacking.

Well what I mean is that compared with the benefits, the upgrades of GL= I-hosts are costly.
=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0For communications spanning GL= I-domains, hosts can send
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0packets to a default GLI-gatewa= y if they receive a negative
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0answer from local mapping system, and the default GLI-gatewa= y
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0does the identifier-to-global locator mapping.

= =A0 =A0That's part of the description. I cannot see how this sentence i= s
=A0 =A0related to the previous or next statement.

=A0I think through this way burdens can be relieved partly from hosts.<= br>
Unburdening intermediate hosts is more important than= unburdening hosts as they have time to do lookup operations etc. without s= toring packets. If you want, you can mention the contrary. GLI-gateways nee= d to substitute local source addresses by global source addresses, but a lo= okup is not required for that operation.=20


=A0

=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0The author= argues that the multiple mapping lookups in hosts
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0is for= them to do multipath routing, since different
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0destinations (local or global) may need different outgoing=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0gateways. However, the gains of multipath routing and the = cost
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of host burdens, and the corresponding delays, need = to be
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0further balanced.

=A0 =A0GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it supports it = if
=A0 =A0needed. And there is a clear desire to support multipath routi= ng,
=A0 =A0just see the current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP.
=A0Ok, further reflection is needed on the balance between application ne= eds and corresponding costs.
As I said, the mechanisms adds more complexity only if i= t is used in case it is needed. Potential multipath support should not be v= iewed as a disadvantage!=20


=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0GLI-hosts = need a home address for mobility. I think there=A1=AFs
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0no= such need if the DNS system updates in time when GLI-hosts
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0move across GLI-domains, which is less frequent compared wit= h
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0host mobility within a GLI-domain. The DNS updates woul= d not
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0take too long: on one hand, caching time of DNS now= is as
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0small as a few seconds or minutes (for load balanc= e and other
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0applications); on the other hand, a mechanism can be devised=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to trigger updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in this cas= e
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0hosts need not map the identifier to the global locator= since
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the returned DNS response has that information, of= course, if
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0they do not need multipath routing.

=A0 =A0We deliber= ately left out the description of this mechanism because
=A0 =A0we think= that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to
=A0 =A0most rout= ing and addressing approaches.
=A0I cannot catch up with this sentence, and I cannot see why the mechanism= is not beneficial. By updating the DNS data, home-address is unneeded, no = matter for communications between GLI-nodes and between GLI-hosts and class= ic IPv6 hosts.
Let me try again. Updating DNS with the current location= instead of using mobile IP is a general mechanism which could be done when= ever DNS is in use - actually even today (but it's not of course!). Thi= s feature can be easily added to any architecture because it does not reall= y depend on it. It can also be added to GLI-Split if it is desired. Your me= ntioned mechanism depends on how fast DNS can be updated. In the GLI-Split = paper, we propose an alternative mechanism for GLI-hosts that bypasses DNS.=

I think that updating DNS would make home-address unneeded, and more i= mportantly, hosts may resolve the domain name and get the GLI address which= already contains the valid global locator, and=A0hosts=A0need not query th= e global mapping system for that information once more.
=A0
=A0
=A0 =A0You could introduce that already in today&#= 39;s Internet. In contrast,
=A0 =A0GLI-Split provides a different substi= tute for mobile IP which does
=A0 =A0not interact with DNS for the chang= e of the location (see Section
=A0 =A03.7 in
=A0 =A0http://ww= w3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.p= df
=A0 =A0<http://www3.info= rmatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/%7Ementh/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf>=20

=A0 =A0). It is applicable only if =A0two GLI-hosts c= ommunicate with each
=A0 =A0other as this mechanism does depend on the s= pecific routing and
=A0 =A0addressing architecture.

=A0Question r= emains as before.
Hm, which question?

Hm... The above question.
=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0As it claims, the main benefit = of GLI-Split is for nodes move
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0within a GLI-domain, since= it would not bother the outside
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0world. When hosts move a= cross GLI-domain more changes may be
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0needed. And the upgrades on hosts are costly, while the
= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0tradeoff between their gains needs discussion.

=A0 = =A0GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts and
=A0 = =A0the latter do not need any upgrade. This was a major design goal
=A0 =A0to avoid costly upgrades which can be an obstacle for deployment.=A0 =A0The benefits of GLI-Split are summarized in Section 5 of
=A0 =A0= http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzb= urg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf
=A0 =A0<http://www3.info= rmatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/%7Ementh/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf>=20

=A0 =A0Some of them are available only for upgraded h= osts, others also
=A0 =A0for classic hosts.

=A0I think I will lea= rn more about the GLI's benefits on backward compatibility, which I und= erestimated before.

Feel free to ask if you have any questions!

R= egards,

=A0 Michael=20


=A0
=A0 =A0Kind regards,
<= br>=A0 =A0 =A0Michael

=A0 =A0-- =A0 =A0Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant = Professor
=A0 =A0University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science<= br> =A0 =A0Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
=A0 =A0phone: (= +49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632
=A0 =A0mailto:menth@infor= matik.uni-wuerzburg.de
=A0 =A0<mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
=A0 =A0http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


Thank you for your clarification.
=A0=A0Best regards,
Letong<= br>

--
Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
Univer= sity of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wue= rzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632
mailto:menth@infor= matik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.= de/research/ngn


=A0
Best regards,
Leong
--001636d34b67e6368e047d831ce4-- From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de Tue Jan 19 04:47:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359523A6A74 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:47:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ai4JBJkeJIQ for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045963A6A50 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E895AC67; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:47:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2875AC52; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:47:39 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Received: from [132.187.12.151] (win3151.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.151]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A2BA5CE08; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:47:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B55A9EB.90908@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:47:39 +0100 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charrie Sun References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> <4B559332.8030805@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190353p43e0f499ld8fe45f69bd92409@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001190353p43e0f499ld8fe45f69bd92409@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:47:48 -0000 Dear Sun Letong, Charrie Sun schrieb: > Hi Michael: > > 2010/1/19 Michael Menth > > > Dear Sun Letong, > > Charrie Sun schrieb: > > Hello Michael, > Questions are inline. > 2010/1/19 Michael Menth > >> > > > Dear Sun Letong, > > thanks a lot for writing the critique for GLI-Split. I have > some > clarifying comments, see inline. > > Critique of GLI-Split, by Sun Letong > GLI-Split makes a clear distinction between two separation > planes: the separation between identifier and locator, > which > is to meet end-users needs including mobility; the > separation > between local and global locator, to make the global > routing > table scalable. The distinction is needed since ISPs > and hosts > have different requirements. > > The distinction makes ISP changes invisible for nodes within a > GLI-domain including the local mapping system, and structural > changes inside a GLI-domain invisible to nodes outside a > GLI-domain including the global mapping system. > > A main drawback of GLI-Split is that it puts too much > burden > on hosts. Before routing a packet received from upper > layers, > network stacks in hosts firstly need resolve the DNS > name to > an IP address; if the IP address is GLI-formed, it may > further > map the identifier extracted from the IP address to the > local > locator. If the communication is between different > GLI-domains, hosts need further to map the identifier > to the > global locator, if the local mapping system does not > forward > the request to the global mapping system for hosts. > This may > lead to large delays and for low-powered hosts it may > become > unpractical. > > 1) Upgraded GLI-hosts convert the identifier address either > to a > local or global address. They perform only a single conversion. > When reading the text one may think that two conversion > steps are > required. > > Did I miss something, but in the section of communications > between different GLI-Domains (section 3.1.2), it is said that > when GLI-node queries local mapping system and get a negative > answer, it queries the global mapping system. Local mapping > system forward the request for GLI-nodes to the global MS is > just an option. > > There may be two mapping lookups but only one conversion from > identifier address to either local or global identifier. > > > > 2) The conversion usually does not introduce a "large dealy" as > the mapping infos are cached. The delay is at the host > where it is > not critical. It's like DNS lookup, probably faster if the > mapping > system is more efficient than DNS (see FIRMS). > > Cache cannot solve the problem of "first-packet-delay". And > in IPv6, storing location information of all mapping servers > (considering the huge indexing space) like FIRMS is unscalable. > > The first-packet-delay in hosts is not crucial as packets do not > need to be stored in intermediate nodes. Describing it as "large > delay" sounds like tremendously worse than DNS-lookup delay which > is rather of the same quality. > > > It is no worse than DNS-lookup in general, but the delay itself would > be troublesome. I do not understand why the first-packet-delay is not > crucial for hosts. Why because of that packets not need to be stored > in intermediate nodes? If the end host itself buffer the packets whose > mapping is unresolved, large delay would lead waiting packets overflow > the buffer; if it does not, large delay may cause packet loss. Is it > not important? When intermediate nodes need perform a mapping lookup, there are three different options for the packets: 1) discard it (undesired) 2) queue it (though buffer overflow can occur which is a way for new attacks) 3) forward it, e.g., over the mapping system (more complex) This problem is avoided when mapping lookups are performed by the hosts instead of intermediate nodes. > > > > > 3) This statement suggests that GLI-Split requires host changes > which is not necessarily true. A major objective of > GLI-Split is > to be backward-compatible. That means, GLI-domains can > accommodate > upgraded GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts for which no > changes are > necessary. Of course, upgraded GLI-hosts enjoy more > benefits than > classic IPv6 hosts. This essential aspect is lacking. > > Well what I mean is that compared with the benefits, the > upgrades of GLI-hosts are costly. > > For communications spanning GLI-domains, hosts can send > packets to a default GLI-gateway if they receive a negative > answer from local mapping system, and the default > GLI-gateway > does the identifier-to-global locator mapping. > > That's part of the description. I cannot see how this > sentence is > related to the previous or next statement. > > I think through this way burdens can be relieved partly from > hosts. > > Unburdening intermediate hosts is more important than unburdening > hosts as they have time to do lookup operations etc. without > storing packets. If you want, you can mention the contrary. > GLI-gateways need to substitute local source addresses by global > source addresses, but a lookup is not required for that operation. > > > > > > > The author argues that the multiple mapping lookups in > hosts > is for them to do multipath routing, since different > destinations (local or global) may need different outgoing > gateways. However, the gains of multipath routing and > the cost > of host burdens, and the corresponding delays, need to be > further balanced. > > GLI-Split does not mandate multipath routing but it > supports it if > needed. And there is a clear desire to support multipath > routing, > just see the current efforts in IETF for multipath TCP. > > Ok, further reflection is needed on the balance between > application needs and corresponding costs. > > As I said, the mechanisms adds more complexity only if it is used > in case it is needed. Potential multipath support should not be > viewed as a disadvantage! > > > > GLI-hosts need a home address for mobility. I think > there¡¯s > no such need if the DNS system updates in time when > GLI-hosts > move across GLI-domains, which is less frequent > compared with > host mobility within a GLI-domain. The DNS updates > would not > take too long: on one hand, caching time of DNS now is as > small as a few seconds or minutes (for load balance and > other > applications); on the other hand, a mechanism can be > devised > to trigger updates on DNS data. Furthermore, in this case > hosts need not map the identifier to the global locator > since > the returned DNS response has that information, of > course, if > they do not need multipath routing. > > We deliberately left out the description of this mechanism > because > we think that it is a substitute to mobile IP and orthogonal to > most routing and addressing approaches. > I cannot catch up with this sentence, and I cannot see why > the mechanism is not beneficial. By updating the DNS data, > home-address is unneeded, no matter for communications between > GLI-nodes and between GLI-hosts and classic IPv6 hosts. > > Let me try again. Updating DNS with the current location instead > of using mobile IP is a general mechanism which could be done > whenever DNS is in use - actually even today (but it's not of > course!). This feature can be easily added to any architecture > because it does not really depend on it. It can also be added to > GLI-Split if it is desired. Your mentioned mechanism depends on > how fast DNS can be updated. In the GLI-Split paper, we propose an > alternative mechanism for GLI-hosts that bypasses DNS. > > I think that updating DNS would make home-address unneeded, and more > importantly, hosts may resolve the domain name and get the GLI address > which already contains the valid global locator, and hosts need not > query the global mapping system for that information once more. Home addresses are still required for interoperability with legacy systems. Therefore, you cannot completely renounce on the maintenance of home addresses if you want to communicate with legacy. Best wishes, Michael > > > > You could introduce that already in today's Internet. In > contrast, > GLI-Split provides a different substitute for mobile IP > which does > not interact with DNS for the change of the location (see > Section > 3.7 in > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf > > > > > > ). It is applicable only if two GLI-hosts communicate with > each > other as this mechanism does depend on the specific routing and > addressing architecture. > > Question remains as before. > > Hm, which question? > > Hm... The above question. > > > > As it claims, the main benefit of GLI-Split is for > nodes move > within a GLI-domain, since it would not bother the outside > world. When hosts move across GLI-domain more changes > may be > needed. And the upgrades on hosts are costly, while the > tradeoff between their gains needs discussion. > > GLI-domains can accommodate upgraded and classic IPv6 hosts and > the latter do not need any upgrade. This was a major design > goal > to avoid costly upgrades which can be an obstacle for > deployment. > The benefits of GLI-Split are summarized in Section 5 of > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~menth/Publications/papers/Menth-GLI-Split.pdf > > > > > > Some of them are available only for upgraded hosts, others also > for classic hosts. > > I think I will learn more about the GLI's benefits on > backward compatibility, which I underestimated before. > > > Feel free to ask if you have any questions! > > Regards, > > Michael > > > > Kind regards, > > Michael > > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > > > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > > Thank you for your clarification. > Best regards, > Letong > > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > > > Best regards, > Leong -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn From jmh@joelhalpern.com Tue Jan 19 05:08:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE083A698A for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:08:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.63 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.63 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.430, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KGG7k5APVEzy for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:08:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.mail.tigertech.net (hermes.mail.tigertech.net [64.62.209.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3E03A6949 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:08:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6027643B310; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:08:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hermes.tigertech.net Received: from [10.10.10.102] (pool-71-161-52-240.clppva.btas.verizon.net [71.161.52.240]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9BA43B30F; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:08:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B55AEBC.5080600@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:08:12 -0500 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lixia Zhang References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> <4B546B67.1060806@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:08:15 -0000 With ILNP (and probably some of the other proposals that use DNS) there are not two kinds of addresses. The addresses used for DNS servers are just like the ones used for the rest of the system. The only difference in ILNP is that clients get thos I/L pairs directly rather than needing to do a DNS lookup to get the pair of fields. Yours, Joel Lixia Zhang wrote: > > On Jan 18, 2010, at 6:08 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >> It seems pretty obvious that you handle DNS addresses just the way you >> do today. You configure the client (either directly, or via DHCP, or >> ...) with the I/L pairs of the DNS servers. Since DNS transactions >> are short, the client simply uses each one as a server individually, >> and does not try any address agility or other fancy techniques. >> >> Yes, this should be written down. But it is not hard, nor >> complicated, and it certainly doesn't lead to recursion. >> >> It does mean that, just as today, if the DNS server one is using gets >> renumbered, the configuration information has to get changed. Well, >> it is pretty hard not to need that anyway. For any mapping system, >> the mapping data requester has to avoid using the mapping system to >> find the mapping system. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> PS: If you and Tony want to relax the 500 word limit, I am happy to >> add a small discussion of the need for more clarity on this issue. >> But given the word limit, I felt I needed to focus on things that had >> more impact. > > hey ietf motto is "rough consesus", so I suppose our word limit is also > just a "rough limit" as I cannot see why 499 words vs 510 words would > make a writing better or worse. Some text in the original writing could > also be removed without losing much > > I think here is how I see the issue: > > 1/ people argue all the time that every host and every application > depend on DNS. > > 2/ however DNS itself cannot depend on DNS. This translates to that all > DNS servers must have IP addresses as defined today, i.e. no composition > of two parts. > > - All DNS authoritative servers must have their glue RRs carrying full > IP address and stored at their parent zones; no composition. And > > - the same for DNS caching resolvers whose addresses must be the full > length without any composition/lookup/whatever, to be configured into > end hosts. > > Another specific detail here is that caching resolvers are > not necessarily close to end hosts (e.g. I'm among those > who use own resolver no matter where I go). > > My earlier statement seems an accurate summary of the situation: we are > seeing an architecture with at least two types of IP6 addresses, > one for all DNS servers (both authoritative and resolver types), > one for everything else. > > (this picture gets me worry, as human beings are not known to always > keep their head straight to tell what is what...) > >> Lixia Zhang wrote: >>> I'm late catching up email. >>> This critique is clearly written, though I do see one important issue >>> that is missing, i.e. the one Robin tried to raise a few times: how >>> to handle DNS server IP addresses. >>> Let me try an example here: say that UCLA implemented ILNP, that >>> would imply all DNS servers for UCLA.edue that are located on campus >>> would have ILNP addresses, correct? >>> But UCLA.edu also needs to put its NS RRs and glue RRs (IP addresses >>> for NS RRs) on .edu servers, and I assume these glue RRs must be >>> treated as traditional 16-byte IP6 addresses? (i.e. they are not >>> subject to further interpretation/composition, a DNS resolver gets a >>> glue RR and uses it directly to reach the DNS server) >>> Then are we talking about an architecture with two types of IP6 >>> addresses? >>> My personal view is that this is not details, it shows that the >>> design has a recursion: we need DNS to get IP addresses; we need IP >>> addresses to reach DNS servers. >>> Lixia > > From zhangwei734@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 05:22:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893183A6916 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:22:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fWdqyhkJWXII for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419143A67EF for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so882790qwd.7 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:21:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=q8H9SlzLRrAn1f47JpPJbAZWMJ3O/fhe8ehmBUkpAJk=; b=NWXkLFezYzClVATbmHdntBojmZmLirl6+aCtT4bp+qDgVliFYdA3fNOEXyhRqGnO2D uuoJkHcjMQQTnGhtArjMFA1lr/sX3RJw2hzEwLTfKSt9Bi6jbqwCe71fbO8ksoL5TluI xvETtiGyy733T8YIZHc46V5C6c9oG/CKLbPP0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jdKtIavJe4xAxQtbOr5SSWl9VWrWXeZPyuDUwwZf3/fP+Vqt4tVzUnTQW7EqCZmNJ4 il+m8LiSI2BU31wnaipIe31L0LaSH1gaB0b/k+4JPORpaCqrtmnbOwR+dZSNkj8a869n D28WXmzruSEDJdjiysrsSIrzz1wSorkniP68Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.4.19 with SMTP id 19mr1316274vcp.86.1263907318527; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:21:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:21:58 +0800 Message-ID: From: wei zhang To: rrg@irtf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [rrg] rrg Digest, Vol 16, Issue 27 X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:22:05 -0000 Hi, Lixia Thank you for your comments. Please check my justification inline. > Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 23:27:45 -0800 > From: Lixia Zhang > Subject: [rrg] a quick critique on 2-phased mapping > To: rrg@irtf.org > Message-ID: <84E09052-8C7D-4C6F-8DE3-B07C5B04109C@cs.ucla.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII; format=3Dflowed; delsp=3Dye= s > > This is a simple idea on how to scale mapping. However personally I > feel the design is too incomplete to be considered a serious input to > RRG. Take the following 2 issues as example: > The design is simple indeed but not incomplete. It focuses on mapping mechanism and can work with many Id/Loc separation proposals(e.g. LISP) nicely. If you need map and encap/rewrite as a whole package I can supplement the rest part, but I think the supplementary can hardly attribute new ideas other than LISP/IVIP etc. I am afraid of distracting readers' attention from too many complicated details. I believe the scalability of mapping in the ID/Loc separation scheme is extremely important and relatively independent of tunneling/rewriting techniques. The routing scalability problem will be shifted to mapping system if the scalable routing presumably acquires mapping beforehand. > First, in this 2-phase scheme, an AS is essentially the unit of > destinations (i.e. sending ITRs find out destination AS D, then send > data to one of of D's ETR). =A0This does not offer much choice for > traffic engineering. > This mapping scheme will not influence intra-domain TE within an AS. If an AS expects some inbound traffics to certain prefixes come in from desired ETRs, it is in the case of interdomain TE. 2-phased mapping guarantees optimized route in the core(BGP routing with RLoc). If the destination AS D needs to enforce its interdomain TE objective in the core, there will be a contradictory between the core and edge. Therefore any gain of the "edge" means undesired cost of the "core". Any way if the AS concerns more about the interdomain TE, the ETRs can be configured to redirect special traffic to a specific inlet of the AS. But this configuration is not an essential part of the mapping system. Generally speaking it is reasonable to keep the granularity of mapping on AS level, which will reduce the mapping dynamics efficiently. > Second, there is no consideration whatsoever on failure detection and > handling. > > Lixia Since the 2-phased mapping scheme takes the advantages of DNS and BGP at the phase I and II respectively. Therefore there is no special failure detection/handling design besides DNS and BGP inherent failure recovery mechanism. Even though the mapping information in the DNS server or mapping cache in the ITR can be obsolete and causes routing failure, ETRs will send destination unreachable message to ITRs to triggre immediate mapping queries. Or when an ETR is down, the BGP update will inform the ETR failure to ITRs. ITRs will choose alternative ETRs to the destination AS or send icmp packets to sources. The ETR reachability detection and routing failure recovery can be implemented variably from case to case. However it will not have substantial impact on the functioning of 2-phased mapping scheme. From rw@firstpr.com.au Tue Jan 19 09:29:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7333A6AD5 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:29:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.412, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w-iykS1LIsJE for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CFE3A6ADC for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0CE175CF2; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 04:29:42 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B55EC08.101@firstpr.com.au> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 04:29:44 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG References: <4B5051A4.7010402@firstpr.com.au> In-Reply-To: <4B5051A4.7010402@firstpr.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [rrg] Ivip-arch-03 - comments by Mohamed Boucadair X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:29:55 -0000 Hi Med, Thanks for your comments: http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/fb/Ivip-arch-03-Med-Boucadair.pdf Here are my responses to the first part of your comments. You wrote: > [Med1] : After reading the document, I have the following comments > (some of theme may be valid for other CES proposals) > > - a figure to show all involved functional elements would ease > the readability of this document. This would be good, but I find ASCII art diagrams pretty tricky. There is a simple multihoming service restoration diagram at the top of the Ivip page http://www.firstpr.com.au/ip/ivip/ . Further down the page in the Mobility section are two more detailed diagrams, depicting TTR mobility, but these involve mobile nodes and TTRs which both ETRs and ITRs - none of which are a part of non-mobile Ivip. I would like to make a better diagram - but for the web page, rather than the IDs. > - An example of call flow would be also more than welcome I guess you mean something depicting the flow of actions. I will consider this. One set of actions is initiated by an end-user or some company they authorise to change the mapping of their micronet. They take some action to change it, and it flows through a UAS system, to an RUAS, and then typically with other changes is placed into the payload of a packet which sent with DTLS to each of the five to eight level 0 Replicators. ("Launch servers" in the Ivip-arch-03 which you read.) The four or five levels or Replicators fan packets out, carrying this payload and (ideally) at least one copy of the payload arrives at a particular QSD in an ISP network somewhere. (Packets with the same payload arrive in potentially hundreds of thousands of QSDs, but only one would be illustrated.) The QSD updates its copy of the mapping database for the particular MAB (Mapped Address Block) these changes apply to. That may be all that happens. However, if this QSD recently sent out a mapping reply to a querier (an ITR or a QSC - caching query server) about the micronet which just had its ETR address changed, then the QSD would sent out an update message to that querier. If the querier was a QSD, it would pass the update out to its one or more queriers which it recently gave the old mapping of this micronet to. ("Recently" means within the caching time the QSD set in the original map reply.) Then, an ITR (or maybe several of them) changes the ETR address it will tunnel packets to if it receives any traffic packets addressed to any SPI address matching this micronet. So nothing more happens until one or more hosts send such packets, and then the ITR encapsulates them (or uses modified header forwarding) to tunnel them to the new ETR. The ETR gets the packet to the destination network. I think it would be challenging to do this in a bunch of illustrations. The other major source of action is a traffic packet arriving at an ITR, addressed to an SPI address (that is its destination address falls within some micronet, in some MAB) and the ITR recognises it doesn't have mapping for this address. So the ITR requests mapping for this address from its nearby query server. This might be a full database QSD, or it might be a caching QSC. If this has the mapping, it sends back to the ITR a map reply, with a caching time. If not (and a QSD always knows the mapping, unless for some reason it's database for this MAB is corrupt and it is rebuilding it - in which case it would get mapping from some other QSD) then the ITR must have asked a QSC. So the QSC sends a mapping query, again with this single destination address, to another query server. Lets say it is a QSD. The QSD replies to the QSC, with a caching time and the full details of the micronet which this address matches. This is a starting and ending address - and an ETR address which the micronet is currently mapped to. The QSD caches this and passes the information on in a map reply to the ITR. These map replies are secured by a nonce copied from the request. Now the ITR has the mapping. It stores this in its cache and tunnels the packet, which it has buffered, to the ETR as specified. This whole query and response process would take a few tens of milliseconds, so the delay in tunneling the packet to the ETR is insignificant. Subsequent packets going to the ITR which match this micronet will be tunneled in the same way. Now, if the user changes the mapping for this micronet, then the first process occurs, but does not end with the QSD just updating its mapping. It also checks its "querier" cache, which tells it that there is a querier caching mapping for this micronet which has just had it mapping changed. Maybe the ITR which requested this mapping is no longer handling packets to this micronet - but it may be, so the QSD sends a mapping update message to the querier, which was a QSC. Map requests, replies and mapping updates are all UDP packets. The mapping updates need to be acknowledged, otherwise the QSD will keep sending them for a while. Now the QSC checks its querier cache and finds that this particular ITR has requested this mapping recently, so it sends a map update message to the ITR and the ITR alters its cache - and therefore where it will tunnel packets to if any arrive addressed to this micronet. None of these updates extend the caching time. If the original micronet was split into different micronets, the updates give all the details, but do not extend beyond the range of addresses covered by the micronet which was returned in the first map reply. A picture is worth a thousand words, but a picture for this would be big and would need about as many words as above. I could do it with a large diagram and a laser pointer! > - The document does not discuss if single homed networks needs to > deploy ITR. Why they have to pay this cost? I think this is a very good question. This answer is long, but I will try to include a shorter version in a future version of the ID. No network absolutely needs to install an ITR. If there is no ITR function in the sending host or in the end-user network of the sending host, or in the ISP network of the sending host or the ISP network which the end-user network uses to connect to the Net, then the packet will go out to the DFZ and be forwarded to one of multiple DITRs (Default ITRs in the DFZ). The DITR will tunnel the packet to the ETR. There could be various sets of DITRs around the Net, and one set of them will be advertising the MAB which matches the destination address of the packet. Ordinary ITRs are in ISP and end-user networks. They advertise all MABs to the local file system and so attract packets sent to any SPI address. Alternatively, they advertise the default route, and get packets which are addressed to SPI addresses as well as those which are addressed to conventional addresses. Either way, they tunnel any packet to an ETR if it is addressed to an SPI address. (Assuming the mapping of the micronet is to an address, rather than to 0.0.0.0, which means the ITR should drop the packet.) These ordinary ITRs look for packets addressed to all SPI addresses - they handle packets whose destination address matches any of the MABs in the Ivip system. An ITR in a sending host (ITFH) doesn't advertise anything - it just does the ITR functions on any packet sent by the host which has an SPI address. All ITRs, including those in sending hosts, need to obtain from their local QSD, an up-to-date list of all the MABs. I haven't detailed how they will do this yet. Also, it would be good if ITRs (including especially ITFHs) could auto discover several nearby query servers in the local network. I haven't figured out how to do this yet, though I guess it could be added to DHCP. Initially, there's probably no great motivation for anyone to install ITRs, but any company which is in the business of renting out SPI space to end-user networks will be keen to have a good system of DITRs around the Net, widely distributed, so no matter where the sending host is, the path from the host to the nearest DITR and then to the ETR will not be much longer than the path from the sending host to the ETR directly. DITRs are unlikely to advertise every MAB. Maybe someone out of the goodness of his or her heart would like to run a DITR which does this, and dutifully tunnels any packet addressed to an SPI address to the correct ETR. But even though the DITR may be an inexpensive server, and the DITR might be just a function running on some server, it still costs money to have it in the DFZ, sending and receiving packets, and it would need to be accepted as a router - being linked to at least one other DFZ router, by which it could advertise routes to all these MABs and so be sent the packets. The most likely arrangement for DITRs is that they will be run by, or for, the MAB companies who "own" one or more MABs and rent out space from them, in small chunks (User Address Blocks - UABs) for end-user networks to use. The end-user networks, assuming they get more than one IPv4 address (or one IPv6 /64) can then split up their UAB into multiple micronets, if they want. Otherwise the whole UAB will be a single micronet the end-user network can map to any ETR it likes. End-user networks will be paying their MAB companies for traffic carried on that company's DITRs which is addressed to one of the end-user network's micronets. Otherwise, the MAB company could be paying for a lot of bandwidth for these DITRs and not gaining any revenue from the end-user network which benefits. Any DITR is likely to be busy, and it needs a QSD nearby. So there would probably be a QSD in the same rack, with the DITR ready to use a more distant QSD if the local one failed for some reason. There could be multiple DITRs, some advertising one set of MABs and some advertising other MABs, to split the load. They could be in the same rack and use the one QSD. With the initial introduction of Ivip, probably few networks will feel the need to install ITRs. When it is more widely adopted, assuming an ITR is inexpensive, then more would adopt them - especially ISPs, who could then tell their customers that they are doing the best to support their traffic, enabling it to be handled by their own high-capacity ITR rather than going out to the DFZ to a DITR which is also handling packets from other networks. There is a further reason why an ISP would want to install an ITR once Ivip becomes widely used. The ISP by then would probably have some ETRs in its network. Assuming there were sending hosts in its network, or in any end-user networks connected to this ISP, and these sending hosts were sometimes sending packets to hosts in end-user networks which were on SPI addresses AND were using this ISP's ETRs . . . then the ISP has a natural incentive to install a local ITR. Without the ITR, those packets are going to go out to the DFZ to a DITR and return in encapsulated form, being tunneled to one of the ETRs in the ISP's network. This would burden the ISP's expensive upstream links to other ISPs. With a local ITR, the packets will be encapsulated locally and tunneled to these ETRs. Of course the new ITR will also be handling packets addressed to SPI addresses which are mapped to ETRs all over the world. So most of the tunneled packets will go out one of the ISP's upstream links anyway. I think that for these two reasons, ISPs would be motivated to install local ITRs once Ivip became moderately widely adopted. Furthermore, if the ISP is trying to attract the custom of end-user networks with SPI space, then it will be making ETRs available (if that is what the end-user network wants - the ETR could also be at the end-user site, and just working of the conventional PA address the ISP's link works from) and making it known that the ISP is hip to Ivip. Then of course, the ISP would want to show its commitment by having ITRs in its network. ITR functions could be done by existing routers. Early on, how many routers, especially older, installed, routers will be able to do this, I am not sure. But a perfectly good ITR could be done with software on a COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) server, which is inexpensive - and the ISP probably has a bunch of servers anyway. To return to your question about singlehomed networks. These are end-user networks, with a single link either to: (A) an ISP on the ISP's PA address space or (B) to an ISP, but with their own PI space. (I think there's no such thing as a singlehomed ISP network, unless it is a very small ISP.) With Ivip, there could be two other kinds of single homed network. In both cases, the network is using one or more micronets of SPI space, but is not multihomed. So the benefit is portability, and stability of the address space, no matter where this end-user network connects (via any ISP in the world) This includes the ability to have this stable space in small increments, down to a single IPv4 address or IPv6 /64. This involves much less cost than getting a whole /24 and wasting most of its space, when the network, such a branch office of a large company, can run fine on a single IPv4 address or a few such addresses. (C) the ETR is in the ISP, and potentially serves other such SPI-using end-user networks. The ETR has some way of driving the link to the end-user network site. This is good for scaling, since one ETR on one single conventional IP address (PA address of the ISP) can support multiple SPI-using end-user networks. (D) the ISP provides a link to the end-user site, such as an ordinary DSL link, with a single stable IPv4 address. The end-user network, such as a SOHO, factory or whatever, runs its own ETR and uses whatever one or more micronets of space mapped to this ETR. (In this case, the ISP has no involvement and may not notice what is happening.) In these cases, the end-user network is not multihomed - but with a little effort, they could be multihomed in the future, without altering their addresses. The motivation would be to have stable, portable address space in small chunks for a low cost. In all cases, A, B, C and D, the end-user network doesn't need to get an ITR. They may want to get one if their ISP has no ITR and they are finding that when they send packets to SPI addresses, the nearest DITR is overloaded so some of their packets are dropped. If their ISP has an ITR, there's no benefit at all in having their own. An ITR needs to talk to a QSD - and that needs to be nearby, such as in the ISP. If the ISP doesn't have an ITR, it probably doesn't have a QSD either. So it would be tricky for the end-user network to run its own ITR. Maybe it could rely on some QSD in a nearby ISP, by special arrangement. Running a QSD is a non-trivial thing to do. They would need a reliable server and to get access to at least two streams of mapping updates from two Replicators, ideally two in topologically different locations. These will send in packets continually, depending on the rate of mapping updates - which depends on how widely Ivip is used at the time. This traffic may not cost much, but it is still an administrative responsibility to run a QSD, get or pay for streams from two replicators and to have it able to access one or more Missing Payload Servers so it can get payloads of packets which did not arrive via either stream from the Replicators. Missing Payload Servers are a new concept - in the new ID which gives details of the simplified Replicator system, without special "Launch" servers: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-whittle-ivip-fpr-00 I just finished this. I will update Ivip-arch soon to mention these. In the C and D cases, if the ISP knows about D, then the ISP will be motivated to install an ITR, because as noted above, it doesn't want other hosts within its customers' networks sending packets to this end-user network, which would go out to the DFZ to a DITR, and then return back to the ISP's network to be forwarded to the ETR. In the A and B cases, the ISP may not care much about Ivip and ITRs, as long as it has no customers using SPI space. But over time, ISPs would be keen to attract customers using SPI space, so I would expect most ISPs of any substance to offer ETRs and likewise ITRs to tunnel local traffic to them directly. To return to your question again . . . > - The document does not discuss if single homed networks needs to > deploy ITR. Why they have to pay this cost? They don't have to get their own ITRs. They can always rely on DITRs for whatever packets they are sending to SPI addresses. If the DITRs are getting overloaded, this would be a reason for the end-user networks whose SPI space these DITRs are handling, to be unhappy. This would put pressure on their MAB company to install more DITRs, or give them more capacity. Likewise if the DITRs were in positions where there were sometimes much longer paths than there could be if there were more widely dispersed DITRs. Overall, I envisage that at first most ITRs would be DITRs. Then, when more ISPs get customers using SPI space, the ISPs will install their own ITRs for reasons noted above. Also, ISPs can use their ITRs to show their customers they are providing a good service. Over time, more ISPs will have ITRs and the proportion of traffic carried on DITRs will reduce. There will always need to be DITRs. A single-homed end-user network - or a multihomed one - using conventional PA space, conventional PI space or SPI space, doesn't really need an ITR. If the upstream ISP(s) have ITRs which are not overloaded, then all will be well. Those ITRs are on-path for where the packets are heading anyway, so there will be no extra path length. If the ISP doesn't have ITRs, which is unlikely if it has SPI using end-user network customers, then the end-user network can let its packets be handled by DITRs. > -The document does not assess the impact of the presence of > several LQSD on the validity of the stored information. I don't clearly understand your question. An ISP with ITRs would probably run two QSDs, and arrange for two streams from Replicators for each, ideally from four not too distant Replicators which nonetheless were in topologically diverse locations and which had their own streams from a reasonably diverse set of higher level Replicators. Ordinarily the QSDs will have identical mapping data. If they don't, it will be because one or both are missing some packets. This should take them a few seconds to fix via Missing Payload Servers, unless they are missing a lot, due to some more serious outage. The stream of mapping updates will include "snapshot messages" where the RUAS announces it just saved a snapshot of the mapping for a particular MAB, which any QSD can download via HTTP. This message contains some kind of hash function, checksum or whatever by which the QSD can check its own copy of mapping for this MAB. If the check shows there is a difference, the QSD will need to download a snapshot, unpack it, apply updates to it which arrived after the snapshot message - and then it will have the correct mapping for this MAB again. Ivip does not have any facility for QSDs comparing notes. Each QSD should be able to run independently. Though they will all need access to two or so Missing Payload Servers. One close and one far away, in another country, would be good - the distant one is unlikely to be missing packets which for some reason are missing locally, assuming they are missing due to a local glitch. > - QSD may be seen as a single point of failure Yes, within an ISP and the ITRs the ISP runs, and any ITRs in end-user networks of this ISP. For this reason, ISPs should run two of them, and the ITRs should be able to send queries to either of them. In the future I will think more about how QSDs respond if they don't have mapping - such as if they know their mapping for a particular MAB is wrong, so they are in the process of getting a snapshot. Maybe the whole database could be unusable because of a loss of updates from both (typically two) Replicators. One approach is for the QSD to act like a QSC and send another mapping query to another ISP, caching the result and passing the result back to the original querier. What happens if both QSDs in an ISP are dead? Maybe there should have been three - or maybe the ITRs are configured to talk not to QSDs, but to QSCs - and the QSCs recognise their QSDs are dead and instead send requests, via special prior arrangement, to QSDs in another location, such as another ISP's site. ISPs could have mutual arrangements to provide backup QSDs for each other. Alternatively, someone could run QSDs for these backup purposes, with secure arrangements so only the QSCs of paying customers could use them. There are definitely more things to go wrong - so there needs to be more arrangements for alternatives which will still work, even if they are a little slower, a little less reliable and perhaps rather costly. These backups won't be needed very often. ISPs already have to ensure their nameservers (local resolvers) and mailservers are always working. Likewise their web servers. So a QSD is another thing to keep going. The good thing is that they are just a server with software - and some streams from Replicators which may cost something, though probably not much. So there can be a few of them, I think, in any substantial ISP. > - Due to traffic growth, QSD must be able to handle a big amount > of request Yes, but there can be multiple QSDs and by installing QSCs, the one QSD should be able to support more ITRs, since the QSCs will tend to be able to answer the more common mapping queries from their cache, saving on the number of queries going to the QSD. > - Several interconnection layers may be defined: the physical one > with BGP interconnection, on top of it service providers who > deploy the CES, interconnection between these SP is required. I don't clearly understand your question. The BGP and DFZ connections for ISPs don't change. An ISP can run ETRs without having to be involved in Ivip in any way. In LISP, the ETRs are typically the authoritative query servers for mapping queries, but in Ivip, they just accept tunneled packets, detunnel them and then know how to get them to the one or more SPI using end-user networks which this ETR is supporting. So having SPI-using customers doesn't absolutely require ITRs, QSCs etc. Still, as noted above, it would be best to have these. Running a QSC means getting two or more streams from level ~4 Replicators. I expect the RUAS companies will collectively run the Replicators for level 0 and 1, and maybe some of the level 2 Replicators too. Each level 0 Replicator will probably be in a different country, but they will operate as a single system, since they will be fully meshed, flooding each other with packets carrying the same payloads. Below that - which means most of the Replicators, since only a few are on levels 0 and 1 - I would expect ISPs and transit providers to run Replicators. It is just a server, and the bandwidth is not immense, in the context of the data links at these peering points, major data centers etc. I would think that one ISP would run a few layer 3 and 4 Replicators at various parts of its network, and send streams to QSCs in other ISP's networks not too far away. In return, those other ISPs would run Replicators the same way, but from different upstream Replicators, and send some streams to the QSDs of the first ISP. There could be commercial services running Replicators, or the RUAS companies could work together to get Replicators out in many corners of the Net. The RUASes would be keen to get ISPs to run their own ITRs, because this would take the load off their DITRs. Perhaps this discussion addresses the concern you raised in the second part of the above question. > During the bootstrap, the SPI must be advertised in the core, > then it does not solve the scalability issue. This situation > will be valid unless a global deployment is adopted OK - this is a common misconception. A single MAB is advertised - say 12.34.0.0/16. That covers 2^16 IP SPI addresses. This is a single prefix burdening all DFZ routers, but it provides space for thousands of end-user networks - SPI space which is portable and suitable for multihoming and inbound TE. So this is success. Only one prefix burden, rather than thousands. Also, it enables much better use of address space than if all these end-user networks got their own /24. You can see from the huge number of /24s which are advertised, far more than any other length, that there are plenty of networks for whom 256 addresses is plenty. Probably many of these networks would be perfectly happy with just 1 IP address, or 4, or 8 or whatever. So there could be 10,000, 20,000 - in principle 64k - end-user networks getting SPI space from this /16, and there is only one burden on the DFZ. The fact that multiple DITRs all over the Net advertise this MAB is not a higher burden on the DFZ. By "bootstrap" I think you mean getting Ivip going - perhaps until such time as all end-user networks are using SPI space. Maybe some other core-edge separation schemes are intended to achieve a complete separation of all end-user networks onto the new kind of space. Not Ivip. With Ivip, there is no "transition" period working towards any complete conversion. The more end-user networks get their SPI space, the better for scalable routing. It is OK that some existing end-user networks will keep their current PI prefixes, using them conventionally, and so burdening the DFZ. The aim is to stop many more doing this - AND to provide portability, multihoming and TE to much larger numbers of generally small end-user networks that would be possible with conventional, unscalable, BGP advertising of prefixes in the DFZ for each individual end-user network. Also, it is fine that many end-user networks - primarily small business, SOHO and home users, will be happy with their current DSL etc. services with a single PA IPv4 address, fixed or variable on DHCP. These are end-user networks too - its just that they don't need portability, multihoming etc. and their current use of PA space is perfectly scalable. > - Deployability issues: what to do when several version of table structures, protocol exchange are to co-exist? I don't clearly understand your question. The idea is that Ivip will be standardised by the IETF and various people will write software, upgrade routers, provide services etc. which will all work together. > - This document encloses some business considerations, this is an > added value compared to other proposal but the concern I have > is that some statement are subjective. Sure. I am trying to keep it brief. Lacking a time machine, any statement I make about the future is not based on known facts - so it is subjective. > - How to assess the flexibility of the proposed system. Being > part of the system should not lead to a frozen situation where > no modification is possible: for instance > adding/remove/modifying reachability information of > ITR/ETR/QSR/RUAS/LQSR should be doable without impact RUASes will be added from time to time. MABs will be added. There will need to be some kind of carefully maintained master config file which all QSDs can download, to tell them about every MAB, which RUAS is responsible for it etc. Such things could be updated and downloaded once a day. So new MABs and new RUASes could be added on any day boundary. MABs could be moved from one RUAS to another, but this will require some thought - will both RUASes be sending mapping changes? There is plenty of work to do. I am not suggesting this is a complete design - but I am trying to show the design is workable and more desirable than the alternatives. The only real alternative is LISP, and I think they have not documented as much of the business relationships for LISP as I have for Ivip. "QSR" and "LQSR" are not Ivip terms. There's no concept of "ITR reachability" in Ivip. RUASes communicate with each other to some extent, and send packets to the level 0 Replicators, but they are not receiving packets from the Net in general. They also connect to UAS systems - and the UAS systems certainly do accept mapping changes from end-user networks or companies appointed by end-user networks. ETR reachability is part of what a "Multihoming Monitoring" (MM) company does when an end-user network appoints them to control the mapping of their micronets, in order to achieve multihoming service restoration. The MM company has multiple servers all around the Net, working as a single system. It probes reachabilty of the end-user network itself, via its two or more ETRs. Its not good enough just to test the ETRs are reachable - some host or router in the network needs to be reachable through the ETR. The probing servers tunnel packets to both ETRs, just like an ITR would do. They do this no matter what the current mapping is - and in this example the current mapping tells ITRs to tunnel packets to ETR-A. The MM company tunnels to ETR-A and ETR-B, from various of its servers out in the DFZ. The inner packet is addressed to the SPI address of the host or router in the network. The MM company expects to get a response back. (I need to figure out how the response should ideally come back via the ISP link and ETR which the probe came through.) If the mapping is set to ETR-A and the servers detect that the network can't be reached via ETR-A, but that it is still reachable via ETR-B, then the MM company sends a mapping change so all ITRs, in a few seconds time, will be tunneling to ETR-B instead. Later, once it figures out that the network is reachable again via ETR-A, it will change the mapping back. Probably the ETR-A link is faster, or less expensive or in some other way preferable. > [Med2] : GENERAL COMMENT: I think that a motivation section to > question the current needs which justify the introduction of CES > or CEE need to be elaborated : what is the trend of PI > advertised. If BGP system is able to manage that maximum, then it > is more about education effort to enforce best practices of > prefix aggregation, etc. Section 4.1 clearly describes my understanding of core-edge elimination (CEE) and core-edge separation (CES) architectures, and the many reasons I chose CES. The trend in DFZ prefixes is easily visible: http://bgp.potaroo.net/ some of these are ISP prefixes, and I think everyone agrees the DFZ can cope with them and the likely growth in their numbers. The problem has at least two aspects: 1 - The PI prefixes are growing in number too fast. 2 - Even this level of growth means that only a small subset of end-user networks which want or need portability, multihoming and inbound TE can get it. Also, some of these end-user networks frequently change the way they advertise their PI prefixes for TE purposes - and this puts an extra load on at least some DFZ routers, and perhaps many of them. CEE or CES could both fix this. My reasons for choosing CES are clearly stated in 4.1. > [Med3] : No value to mention VoIP here. I mentioned VoIP, just before the word "other" (VoIP was deleted from your annotated file) because VoIP is something people like to do on mobile devices. It is not necessarily what cellphone companies have in mind when they sell Internet connectivity to customers using cell-"phones". But if people can do their own VoIP and find it cheaper or better than the normal voice service, they will keep doing it. Being able to do it on mobile devices is a reason why people want mobile devices with IP connectivity. TTR mobility could give each device its own portable, stable, IP address or /64. I think this would make some VoIP applications easier, since the device can always be reached via its stable, portable, SPI address. This is more direct than the mobile device always being a client, on unstable addresses, and therefore being much harder to reach for incoming calls. > It think that the current trend is inline with this statement. The > mobile traffic is drastically increasing. Developing countries > adopt mobile infrastructure rather than fixed one. Yes. I think that in 2020 or 2025 most Internet hosts will be mobile devices. > In addition, new use cases such us sensor networking and M2M may > advocate for more and more devices to be connected. I am not sure what M2M means, but Internet and mobile devices are natural companions. The most mobile I get with the Internet is an Acer netbook with a little Huawei USB 3G/GPRS modem. It works like a charm. I am keen to get a Google phone. >> wireless links which are frequently slow, unreliable and/or >> expensive. > [Med4] : In the future, this may not be valid since some ISPs > offer already mobile broadband services. My ISP, Internode, gives me the 3G service for $15 a month, including 500Mbytes. This is a great deal - but not every service is this inexpensive. 3G or any wireless service is, in my view, much less reliable than DSL. It is much slower, and there are significant latencies, and extra delays if no data has been sent for a few seconds. The 3G modem has to request upstream and downstream bandwidth. In one location 3G (WCDMA and HDSPA) was unusable during the day when there was lots of voice calls. The connection kept locking up. So it was back to 4 channels of GPRS, which probably chews more battery current and was much slower - but rock solid. I just think wireless connections are fraught with problems with low speed, unpredictable speed, etc. So I don't want to see the Internet changed (as with a CEE architecture) to something which makes all hosts do more work, do more lookups, crypto handshakes etc. just to do basic things like send a packet to another host. All that extra stuff will take much longer over wireless links, and I think most hosts will be on wireless links in 15 years time. > [Med5] : MIM techniques or any other technique to ensure > robustness of mobile traffic may be envisaged. I think you mean MIMO - dual antennae for base-station and handset, with fancy signals to increase data-rate and/or robustness, including by using reflections of buildings etc. Yes, but wireless links are inherently variable - and there is bound to be latency since the upstream and downstreams are usually time-division-multiplexed with other handset - and even then capacity in the timeslots needs to be organised beforehand. >> Below, Ivip is generally assumed to be introduced as a single >> system for the purposes of solving the routing scaling problem. > [Med7] : What means system here? I meant that Ivip is IETF standardized and there is a single mapping system, which all QSDs and ITRs use. This is to contrast with one or more companies introducing an Ivip-like system, most likely to support TTR mobility - but without any IETF standardization and not necessarily for the purpose of scalable routing, multihoming for non-mobile networks etc. On page 10 I had some very loose estimates of mapping update rates. > [Med9] : I think all this figures are some kind of speculative data > Can be removed. I don't suggest it is "data". It is just tossing some figures around trying to estimate, very roughly, how many micronets (or end-user networks, which is roughly the same number) there would be due to non-mobile end-user networks, compared to how many there would be with really widely adopted TTR mobile adoption. My WAG (Wild Assed Guess) is ~10^7 without mobility and 10^10 with mobility. 10^7 is easy to do. I think there's no argument for LISP-ALT if that is all we are aiming for. We need to aim for more, but only if we can support mobility - and if we don't support mobility it would be a huge mistake. In the absence of a time-machine (which would return *data* from the future!), I think it is better to do a WAG and admit it is wild, then to not think about these things at all. >> It would be a private, flexible, arrangement between an end-user >> network and a MM company it hires to continually probe the >> network's reachability via its two or more ETRs. > [Med10] : Why flexible ? compared to what ? Ivip's approach, where the end-user network would probably hire a Multihoming Monitoring company to test reachability and control their mapping, is much more flexible than the way other CES systems work. These (LISP and APT, most prominently) all lack real-time mapping, so the end-user networks have no real-time control. Therefore, all the end-user network can do is set their mapping so the ITRs will hopefully, individually, figure out that one ETR is not providing connectivity and the other is. The rate and method of reachability testing can't be specified. Just testing reachability to the ETR is not good enough - there has to be a test of connectivity through the ETR and to the end-user network. But how can the ITR know which address in the end-user network to ping? Nor can the decision criteria in LISP or APT be as flexible as with Ivip. The MM company can create almost any kind of decision algorithm - such as whether to switch mapping for a 1 second outage, a 10 second outage or whatever. LISP and APT have to fix very limited capabilities into all ITRs (Default Mappers for APT) and then all the end-user network can do is set a few mapping options. With Ivip, the end-user network has far more flexible control of the ITRs and it can have the MM company probe reachability and make decisions in a far wider range of ways than could ever be made options in the ITR behaviour of a CES such as LISP. >> This modular separation of the detection and decision-making >> functions from the core-edge separation is good engineering >> { practice and ensures that the Ivip subsystem can be used >> { flexibly, including for purposes not yet anticipated. > [Med11] : Can be dropped I will keep it - the flexibility is really important and we can't necessarily anticipate all the future uses for something like this. >> 2.5. Maximise the flexibility with which ITRs and ETRs can be >> located > [Med13] : What means flexibility here ? With APT there are only certain places where ITRs and ETRs can be placed. I think LISP is pretty restrictive too. Ivip enables a wider variety of placements including ITRs on SPI (EID) addresses and in sending hosts. >> TTR mobility does not involve mapping changes every time the MN >> gains a new physical address, since it continues to use the same >> one or more TTRs as its one or more ETRs. > [Med14] : What do you mean by "physical address" ? This is probably a confusing term - I will remove it. I meant that the MN gets an address which is related to the network it is physically connected to, as opposed to a "logical" address - a portable SPI address it gets via the TTR mobility system, which its applications use and by which other hosts can send packets to it. That SPI address is completely unrelated to whatever physical network the MN is connected to. - Robin From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 12:10:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A723A6921 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.996, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kDLQcM4ZQd3j for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f225.google.com (mail-fx0-f225.google.com [209.85.220.225]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795E43A6956 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm25 with SMTP id 25so997617fxm.1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5uLLMx4GEnqWmEwPfiQdolERELpUywpNOtg/pFjTGfo=; b=NAsL5CVcKH8k/nfDSG55h0S0zq42DNYi6/0IsSkLtXNpp2jqjwHLkGtVNhLzCTaY32 PCr+eh9KcPkaVdHVx6JRDd8Sdhk03AcXyfD9mCa+IFcziuLKNIuhXnj3aQYVj3s50Lcj AjUIiN/6gyZ5eBXP6j3waJQNytMgnURXEFqac= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=VfpA1uH/oz1dmLT4sAnl6w/OxiWrRMVpX4EoGU0gHFsnBhqGsN99rwnQ3N7IHOPJKq O/DfkN8BgzOM80uw8ev3XzW/08RkfP1VpfX3wSE30d3qB+6ECpJ476CEbe7vrW+5bmk/ MOK7uzEL5d0RmIdwRM5q5MaDzu9bQz7SWLDYk= Received: by 10.223.143.68 with SMTP id t4mr3741772fau.98.1263931835716; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.1.4? ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm3870549fkr.27.2010.01.19.12.10.32 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:10:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B5611B3.5010208@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 09:10:27 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <4B4B2D94.4020508@joelhalpern.com> <97903EFE-2F02-427B-B99E-9B49E3533E1A@cs.ucla.edu> <4B546B67.1060806@joelhalpern.com> <4B55AEBC.5080600@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4B55AEBC.5080600@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: RRG Subject: Re: [rrg] ILNP Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:10:47 -0000 On 2010-01-20 02:08, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > With ILNP (and probably some of the other proposals that use DNS) there > are not two kinds of addresses. > The addresses used for DNS servers are just like the ones used for the > rest of the system. > The only difference in ILNP is that clients get thos I/L pairs directly > rather than needing to do a DNS lookup to get the pair of fields. The circularity rule [RFC1958], which iirc was drafted by Jon Postel, actually says: 3.11 Circular dependencies must be avoided. For example, routing must not depend on look-ups in the Domain Name System (DNS), since the updating of DNS servers depends on successful routing. It does seem that ILNP satisfies this; I'm not sure that all the schemes that use DNS for mapping do so. Brian From charriesun@gmail.com Tue Jan 19 19:49:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D653A69B5 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:49:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nac3Xukz8mbN for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f185.google.com (mail-qy0-f185.google.com [209.85.221.185]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73273A69A2 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk15 with SMTP id 15so1696794qyk.23 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:49:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=BatmajXzK7WCrzYpGCQOeLCK6RjnKvlYV9Y+Ty+3msU=; b=O2AEfUvX7eMzr1snJk6SSIOE3O2CdZB9BkMue51d2TFGlLoi1vTMSHzw6GrLy8YyF5 vi8xVpV7Rq54vAnp2fcNGajSgXUd1XfjYw0SNgeAfRgqaqMTPl8RE9x2/3fHR8w5YX6v 0h/w1YssHy3OyGsJ82k6hM8yyXAHycxekLjBo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Xn0ApyiQn+A4JECosTWalUQVcyPkKThzWfx4rwiWjdq4EualKet3NCYVSsD47tU8aA WcFG2qY7JKVP0/HF0Gs2YTYc4Q7BRffHhrZr7aHWmORteuoxNnsVmwrl/M1qEdZaeu0G alpjKYWEbktp+If1HSdmfZmDmgDZQ6sK9prLA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.127.96 with SMTP id f32mr1179949vcs.29.1263959384695; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:49:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B5610C9.9000702@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> <4B559332.8030805@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190353p43e0f499ld8fe45f69bd92409@mail.gmail.com> <4B55A9EB.90908@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001191200v5f1ae5b4we72b754c6085a290@mail.gmail.com> <4B5610C9.9000702@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:49:44 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001191949w521205abs84f4d09272ff1f19@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, RRG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=0016e68ee02e22a910047d907a5b Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:49:53 -0000 --0016e68ee02e22a910047d907a5b Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68ee02e22a907047d907a59 --0016e68ee02e22a907047d907a59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I revised my critique about GLI-Split, after the discussion with Dr. Menth and have some new understanding on the proposal. Appreciate more for comments and revisions. Best wishes, Letong --0016e68ee02e22a907047d907a59 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I revised my critique about GLI-Split, after the discussion with D= r. Menth and=A0have some new=A0understanding=A0on the proposal.=A0Appreciat= e more for=A0comments and revisions.
=A0
Best wishes,
Letong
=A0
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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014C13A679C for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SA9Br4Sp-OYK for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30E23A67B0 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so1065921qwd.7 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:51:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3kw0tF4h4obfzE1jZ4jobB2d6KErwSD0vDynkg/rShA=; b=eEBA221daj9uzF5lkjuxWKtpIPcumdOVom4tK67ekXKNKwDSCVOs4mE6OOaBu0kknU zhlpeWWkOYOH18Yh6OUS5eY0e6lhOtZDHU/K+sSwTDY3WeSmNPGlG7Ru+u+diEpRfZNe cE9bAvGSELzkQlSI4O23MqttQIqyaen7Bl+R4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=hy43t7EpiQXW6Sf3opSKuTC6TuAlSqall1pvEayK2ShAzb59dqN5PUKnmV3xEd05Kc m+C7Gald9+0lf7ZAD058jcMstbTFP6nwOmB9NB8Zdi4ZHqbcRU/+XZVjD14vs+pFSEDu y3ZwcdcR+UJXJ93OKzZIhOzGKeEWN+m+9IMFg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.125.20 with SMTP id w20mr296780vcr.62.1263959472467; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:51:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4eb512451001191949w521205abs84f4d09272ff1f19@mail.gmail.com> References: <4eb512451001181913m508d205doec6222caa50ce0b6@mail.gmail.com> <4eb512451001181927q878d38en786c1ae56c739c4d@mail.gmail.com> <4B5578AE.8030005@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190223x1aa2bb63o9b5808495ab72d52@mail.gmail.com> <4B559332.8030805@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001190353p43e0f499ld8fe45f69bd92409@mail.gmail.com> <4B55A9EB.90908@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001191200v5f1ae5b4we72b754c6085a290@mail.gmail.com> <4B5610C9.9000702@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4eb512451001191949w521205abs84f4d09272ff1f19@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:51:12 +0800 Message-ID: <4eb512451001191951o3c8dc687t532f0905e85cb4b6@mail.gmail.com> From: Charrie Sun To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, RRG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001636b1478f5def83047d907ffc Subject: [rrg] Fwd: Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:51:21 -0000 --001636b1478f5def83047d907ffc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b1478f5def7a047d907ffa --001636b1478f5def7a047d907ffa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry, the .txt version. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Charrie Sun Date: 2010/1/20 Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, RRG I revised my critique about GLI-Split, after the discussion with Dr. Menth and have some new understanding on the proposal. Appreciate more for comments and revisions. Best wishes, Letong --001636b1478f5def7a047d907ffa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, the .txt version.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:= Charrie Sun <charriesun@gmail.com>
Da= te: 2010/1/20
Subject: Re: [rrg] Fwd: Critique of GLI-Split
To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, RRG &= lt;rrg@irtf.org>



I revised my critique about GLI-Split, after the discussion with D= r. Menth and=A0have some new=A0understanding=A0on the proposal.=A0Appreciat= e more for=A0comments and revisions.
=A0
Best wishes,
Letong
=A0
=A0

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Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.316, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nc2wNjsnDbCd for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E023A67B0 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.35]) by qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XUxa1d00C0lTkoCAAfxxJF; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:57:57 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.112] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Xfxw1d0073L8a8Q8QfxwJN; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:57:57 +0000 Message-ID: <4B564069.7010107@tony.li> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:29:45 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yangyang Wang References: <72545933A3094A3EA474861539C5D6BF@wyystar> In-Reply-To: <72545933A3094A3EA474861539C5D6BF@wyystar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] NOL Critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:58:00 -0000 Yangyang Wang wrote: > Critique of NOL (name overlay service for Internet routing scalability) Received and incorporated. Tony From tony.li@tony.li Tue Jan 19 19:58:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D11A3A69BF for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:58:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.294, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aiUEaERLTq4s for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.48]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B92A3A69BD for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta23.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.90]) by qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XeTz1d0061wfjNsA5fy0iV; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:58:00 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.112] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta23.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Xfxx1d0093L8a8Q8jfxyEy; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:57:59 +0000 Message-ID: <4B56431F.3000501@tony.li> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:41:19 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Francis References: <003601ca98b1$cb225a60$090d6f0a@china.huawei.com> <40CC821E-E1B7-44F0-8332-3129862DE39A@cs.ucla.edu> <2842611C-BE13-4039-A694-21E97FF581FD@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rrg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [rrg] critique of RANGI: a revision X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:58:04 -0000 Paul Francis wrote: > Ok, here is the depersonalized RANGI critique. Received and incorporated. Tony From rw@firstpr.com.au Tue Jan 19 20:08:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1153A698E for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:08:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.396, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xc0777vDrbn for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC483A6970 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E901755B7; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:07:57 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B56819E.3080208@firstpr.com.au> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:07:58 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] List of critiques so far X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 04:08:03 -0000 Here is my attempt to list the state of the 500 word critiques for the RRG report. - Robin I should have a critique of LISP soon. I am working on a TIDR critique, but am waiting to hear from Jaunjo about things I may not understand. I intend to write something about RANGER in the next week or so. The ILNP critique is potentially to be extended based on Lixia's and my concerns about multiple DNS lookups. I need to spend more time thinking about this before contributing further to this debate. I will work on a detailed critique of Name Based Sockets, but that will probably take me a week or so to complete. Christian Vogt is busy with paying work but plans to write a critique of Ivip. This would be separate from the one Lixia wrote - and I guess it will take some time, like a week or two, to complete. This is in alphabetical order as in: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/RoutingResearchGroup 1. 2-phased mapping Lixia wrote a note that this was too incomplete to be considered by the RRG: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05695.html Wei Zhang responded: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05713.html 2. Aggregation with Increasing Scopes: Beichuan Zhang and Lan Wang wrote a critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05693.html 3. Enhanced Efficiency of Mapping Distribution Protocols K. Sriram wrote a critique of his own proposal - basically a response to on-list comments by Dino Farinacci and Brian Carpenter: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05694.html Lixia offered to "rewrite it in a more comprehensible way" later. 4. GLI-Split Sun Letong wrote an initial critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05687.html Michael Menth responded: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05704.html and there were further messages I have not listed. Sun Letong wrote a revised critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05716.html 5. hIPv4 (None yet.) 6. ILNP Joel Halpern and Yakov Rekhter wrote a critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05624.html Several people including myself contributed to this on-list and privately. Not these concerns were expressed in the final text. Lixia raised a concern of about circular dependency, based on something I had written earlier: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05677.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05691.html Tony Li responded: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05679.html Joel responded: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05681.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05712.html Brian Carpenter supported Lixia's concern: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05715.html 7. Ivip Lixia's critique is: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05697.html Mohamed Boucadair commented on Ivip-arch-03, but this is not for the RRG report: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05661.html I have replied to some of these on-list and hope to respond to the rest within a few days. Christian plans a critique, but this will be separate from the one Lixia wrote for the RRG report. 8. LMS Sun Letong wrote a critique of the LMS, which he helped design: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05687.html To me this appears to be a critical analysis, listing challenges, not just a restatement of what is good about it. Lixia commented on it: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05698.html and Sun replied: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05705.html 9. LISP I am preparing a critique. 10. Mapping system based on Compact Routing (None yet.) 11. Name-Based Sockets Javier Ubillos wrote an initial critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05663.html I intend to write a critique, but it will take a week or so. Javier wrote an revised critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05709.html 12. Name Overlay(NOL) Yangyang Wang wrote a critique of his own proposal: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05658.html To me this appears to be a critical analysis, listing challenges, not just a restatement of what is good about it. 13. RANGI Paul Francis wrote a critique: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg05680.html Lixia added two things to it and there were quite a few messages from several people, which I won't list here. 14. RANGER I plan to write a critique, but it will take me a week or so. 15. TIDR I am preparing a critique. From tony.li@tony.li Tue Jan 19 22:04:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FB43A6898 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:04:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.633, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wCsH0R7ppKOI for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.96]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC693A6840 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.36]) by qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XhvG1d0020mlR8UA9i4jKf; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:04:43 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.112] ([24.6.155.154]) by omta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Xi4i1d0053L8a8Q8Xi4iX0; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:04:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4B569CF8.1020002@tony.li> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:04:40 -0800 From: Tony Li User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [rrg] Reminder X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 06:04:46 -0000 Hi all, We've had a bit of a schedule slip. We are still trying to hit a final document date of Mar. 8. That gives us just less than 7 weeks. The next deadline for a rebuttal is Feb. 9. The deadline for counterpoints will then be Mar. 2. This will give us a few days for final document prep. The word count limit for the rebuttal is 500 words. Regards, Tony From rw@firstpr.com.au Tue Jan 19 23:00:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rrg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5207A3A6A1D for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:00:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.756 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.756 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.376, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j9w7qLuilo94 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gair.firstpr.com.au (gair.firstpr.com.au [150.101.162.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC0F3A6A30 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 23:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.6] (wira.firstpr.com.au [10.0.0.6]) by gair.firstpr.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005E6175B50; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:00:30 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <4B56AA10.30201@firstpr.com.au> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:00:32 +1100 From: Robin Whittle Organization: First Principles User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RRG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000706060900010602080807" Subject: [rrg] LISP critique X-BeenThere: rrg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Routing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 07:00:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000706060900010602080807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Lixia and Tony, Below is a 747 word critique of LISP. I have attached a Word file with this text and another version chopped back to 497 words. An intermediate version shows what has been lost - contextual and moderating material, not actual critical material. Given LISP-ALT's prominence in this field, it being the only RRG proposal with an IETF WG, and given that its designers contributed only twice to this critique phase (msg05685 and msg05700), I wonder whether the RRG could be little more generous with the word limit for the LISP critique. The LISP summary used only 206 words. - Robin This critique concerns LISP+ALT. LISP+NERD could scale to ~10^7 EIDs, but its full-database ITRs would be more expensive and so less numerous than the caching ITRs with local full-database query servers which are used in APT and Ivip. ALT is a mapping distribution system with globally distributed query servers: ETRs and Map Servers. The ALT network is an overlay built with existing tunnel and router elements. A test network has been built with relative ease and there are several efforts to write interoperable implementations of ITRs, ETRs, Map Servers and Map Resolvers. A fundamental problem with any global query server network such as ALT is that the delays inherent in this approach (with frequently long paths and greater risk of lost queries or responses) mean that ITRs will drop or significantly delay the initial packets of many new sessions. ITRs drop the packet(s) they have no mapping for. After the mapping arrives, the ITR waits for a resent packet (assuming the sending host is not trying instead to contact another host in a different EID prefix) and will then tunnel that packet correctly. These "initial packet delays" reduce performance and so create a major barrier to voluntary adoption on wide enough basis to solve the routing scaling problem. ALT’s delays are compounded by its structure being "aggressively aggregated" according to address, without regard to the geographic or topological location of the routers. So the tunnels between ALT routers will often span large geographic distances and traverse many Internet routers. Therefore, the many levels to which a query typically ascends in the ALT hierarchy before descending towards its destination router will too often involve very long geographic paths and so worsen delays and packet loss rates. No solution has been proposed for these problems or for the contradiction between the need for high aggregation while making the ALT structure robust against single points of failure. Initial packet delays can only be made insignificant with NERD or local full-database query servers. For LISP’s ITRs to perform multihoming service restoration, they must determine reachability of end-user networks via two or more ETRs. The individual efforts of large numbers of ITRs are inefficient and potentially burdensome on the ETRs. Testing reachability of the ETRs is complex and costly - and insufficient. ITRs cannot test network reachability via each ETR, since the ITRs have no address of a device in that network. So ETRs must test network reachability and convey this to ITRs. LISP involves complex communication between ITRs and ETRs, with UDP and variable-length LISP headers in all traffic packets. The ITR's algorithm for solving the PMTUD problems caused by encapsulation is incomplete and may be expensive to implement securely. The advantage of LISP+ALT is that its ability to handle billions of EIDs is not constrained by the need to transmit or store the mapping to any one location. Such numbers, beyond a few tens of millions of EIDs, will only result if the system is used for Mobility. Yet the concerns just mentioned about ALT’s structure arise from the millions of ETRs which would be needed just for non-mobile networks. (Map Servers may reduce total path lengths somewhat.) In LISP’s mobility approach each MN needs an RLOC address to be its own ETR, meaning the MN cannot be behind NAT. This double address use is unsuitable for IPv4. Lisp-mn requires instant mapping changes being sent to all relevant ITRs every time the MN gets a new address - which LISP cannot achieve. However, LISP could support the TTR Mobility architecture which does not require mapping changes to be frequent or instantly achieved. In order to enforce ISP filtering of incoming packets by source address, LISP ITRs would have to implement the same filtering on each decapsulated packet. This is extremely expensive at high data rates for large numbers of prefixes - and is normally done with TCAM hardware. LISP monolithically integrates multihoming failure detection and restoration decision-making processes into the core-edge separation scheme itself. End-user networks must rely on the necessarily limited capabilities which are built into every ITR. These functions could be externalised and made the responsibility of end-user networks if LISP was able to distribute mapping in real-time to all ITRs which need it. However this is not practical without full database local query servers. LISP-ALT may be able to solve the routing scaling problem, but alternative approaches would be superior because they eliminate the initial packet delay problem and give end-user networks real-time control over ITR tunneling. --------------000706060900010602080807 Content-Type: application/msword; name="LISP-critique-747-497.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="LISP-critique-747-497.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAWAAAAAAA AAAAEAAAWgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAFcAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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