At 6:56 PM -0500 11/14/08, Laird Popkin wrote: >In talking with the major P2P networks, I haven't heard anyone express a serious desire to degrade performance to keep people in the network (though there was some cynical joking on the topic). Nor have I. Note that I didn't say "degrade". I said live with "slightly lower speed". It's a tradeoff. >The P4P WG participation includes many major p2p networks, including Pando, BitTorrent, Solid State, Grid Networks, LimeWire, Abacast, Azureus, Joost, etc. Just to be clear here, "BitTorrent" in your list is a single BitTorrent tracker which happens to be run by BitTorrent.com. It is not representative of the BitTorrent communities of which I spoke, namely the ones that are inundating ISPs. >The summary is that in exactly the scenario you assert that ALTO "does nothing" P4P (think of it as pre-ALTO) provide huge performance and efficiency benefits. That is quite possibly true; it is also not relevant to what I said. I was speaking about the BitTorrent communities that are currently the bandwidth problem for ISPs; you are speaking about other p2p communities whose current bandwidth usage is probably at least an order of magnitude less than the ones of which I am speaking. Of course, in the future, the bandwidth market may shift towards the kinds of systems you are talking about. If so, Alto could very well be helpful. People clearly want to work on that future problem, and Alto might be a good place to do it. My expressly-stated concern was From alto-bounces at ietf.org Fri Nov 14 17:25:39 2008 Return-Path: <alto-bounces at ietf.org> X-Original-To: alto-archive at ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-alto-archive at core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1C73A67C0; Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:25:39 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: alto at core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: alto at core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F1D3A6921 for <alto at core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:25:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T8yhDPcK3kzH for <alto at core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794413A635F for <alto at ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.20.30.152] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id mAF1PW5D020803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <alto at ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:25:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman at vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <p06240811c543d069b233 at [10.20.30.152]> In-Reply-To: <395625583.102321226706968208.JavaMail.root at dkny.pando.com> References: <395625583.102321226706968208.JavaMail.root at dkny.pando.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:25:31 -0800 To: alto at ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at vpnc.org> Subject: Re: [alto] Problems with the Alto problem statement X-BeenThere: alto at ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "Application-Layer Traffic Optimization \(alto\) WG mailing list" <alto.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/alto>, <mailto:alto-request at ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/alto> List-Post: <mailto:alto at ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:alto-request at ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/alto>, <mailto:alto-request at ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: alto-bounces at ietf.org Errors-To: alto-bounces at ietf.org At 6:56 PM -0500 11/14/08, Laird Popkin wrote: >In talking with the major P2P networks, I haven't heard anyone express a serious desire to degrade performance to keep people in the network (though there was some cynical joking on the topic). Nor have I. Note that I didn't say "degrade". I said live with "slightly lower speed". It's a tradeoff. >The P4P WG participation includes many major p2p networks, including Pando, BitTorrent, Solid State, Grid Networks, LimeWire, Abacast, Azureus, Joost, etc. Just to be clear here, "BitTorrent" in your list is a single BitTorrent tracker which happens to be run by BitTorrent.com. It is not representative of the BitTorrent communities of which I spoke, namely the ones that are inundating ISPs. >The summary is that in exactly the scenario you assert that ALTO "does nothing" P4P (think of it as pre-ALTO) provide huge performance and efficiency benefits. That is quite possibly true; it is also not relevant to what I said. I was speaking about the BitTorrent communities that are currently the bandwidth problem for ISPs; you are speaking about other p2p communities whose current bandwidth usage is probably at least an order of magnitude less than the ones of which I am speaking. Of course, in the future, the bandwidth market may shift towards the kinds of systems you are talking about. If so, Alto could very well be helpful. People clearly want to work on that future problem, and Alto might be a good place to do it. My expressly-stated concern was that thethat the problem statement document has wording that makes it sound like the Alto proposals might have an affect on the current large amount of traffic, which I believe it won't. <rest of information about Pando and P4P elided> --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ alto mailing list alto at ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/alto problem statement document has wording that makes it sound like the Alto proposals might have an affect on the current large amount of traffic, which I believe it won't. <rest of information about Pando and P4P elided> --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ alto mailing list alto at ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/alto
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