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- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = simply ignore the bandwidth TLV. If such a flag would = and the flag is set to 'Mandatory' by the AN to NAS-B, what = be the behavior of NAS-B? Should it reject the whole=20 message? Maybe NAS-B is not supporting hierarchical = so it might not support the bandwidth TLV. Today, the=20 bandwidht TLV is only mandatory to be put in the port up = but for the receiver there is nothing = lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I = the original intend of ANCP was that the AN does not need to = what the NAS is doing with this information, the use of the=20 bandwidth is also not specified by ANCP, only an example is = (which is shaping). In the future there may be = for which TLVs will be mandatory which are now=20 optional.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: = lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- 12pt"> <o: p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
- 12pt"><o: p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: = <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT = size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
- Border-bottom: medium none"> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = lang=3DDE=20
- Border-top: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: =
- Lang=3dde><o: p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- Style=3d"font-size: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" = face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN =
- Style=3d"font-size: 12pt"> <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: = face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
- Tahoma">from: </SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Wojciech Dec = [mailto:wdec at cisco.com] <BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> maandag 28 = 21:33<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> = CNODDER Stefaan; Busser, M; ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Haag, = style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [ANCP] = TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20 proposal</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
- Tahoma">from: </SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> DE CNODDER = [mailto:stefaan.de_cnodder at alcatel-lucent.be] <BR><B><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 28 April 2008 =
17:15<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
Wojciech Dec (wdec); Busser, M; ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Haag, =
T<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [ANCP] =
Mandatory=20
TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20
proposal</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Take the=20
bandwidth sub-TLV in port up messages as example. =
The=20
current protocol spec says that it is mandatory to be =
sent in=20
port up messages. that's ok. But it is not =
mandatory=20
for the receiver to process the bandwidth sub-TLV. =
What is=20
done with this information by the NAS is not specified by =
ANCP, so=20
you cannot make it mandatory for the receiver=20
side.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj>=20
Is the information required by the application? It would =
appear=20
for the dynamic shaping use-case to be most certainly so. =
Hence it=20
is absolutely mandatory, otherwise the message makes no =
sense for=20
the application.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">In any=20
case, if </SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">So it=20
looks to me that the flag can only indicate what the =
receiver=20
should do. Then the flag makes =
sense.</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj>=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">The flag=20
tells the receiver what info the sender thinks is required =
to=20
carry out the application. This in almost all cases has to =
match=20
up to what the receiver thinks is required. The=20
sender doesn't tell the receiver what to do with the=20
info.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">If the=20
receiver knows what is mandatory, then I do not see a =
reason why=20
this has to be made explicit in the protocol. It =
would only=20
complicate the protocol. As already said by Michael: =
if a=20
mandatory TLV is not there, then it is just a=20
bug.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj>=20
Can you specifically describe what aspect of the protocol =
does it=20
complicate?</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">It's=20
just making explicitly clear what the protocol already has =
to=20
implement anyway to be of any use.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As to =
whether it is a=20
bug, having such explicit marking makes it clear =
what/where the=20
problem is when observing a messaging flow vs a lot =
of=20
deduction work. In any case, the other point being made=20
here is that today the protocol does NOT specify what =
should=20
happen if a mandatory TLV is missing.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">-Woj.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">regards,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Stefaan</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Wojciech =
Dec (wdec)=20
[mailto:wdec at cisco.com] <BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> maandag 28 =
april 2008=20
16:28<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">To:</SPAN></B> DE=20
CNODDER Stefaan; Busser, M; ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Haag, =
T<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [ANCP] =
Mandatory=20
TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20
proposal</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It's =
actually a mix of=20
both. Inline...</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: =
5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" =
SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">=20
ancp-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] =
<B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>DE =
CNODDER=20
Stefaan<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>=20
28 April 2008 16:04<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Wojciech Dec =
(wdec);=20
Busser, M; ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Haag, =
T<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: =
[ANCP]=20
Mandatory TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20
proposal</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Hi,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">This=20
new mandatory flag, what is exactly its=20
meaning?</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">(1) if=20
flag set to "mandatory", then the *receiver* of this TLV =
MUST=20
process it, and if unrecognized must drop the=20
message</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">If a=20
received TLV is has the "mandatory" flag =
set then the=20
receiver MUST drop the message and report an error to =
the=20
sender if it doesn't recognize the =
TLV.</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">If a=20
the receiver expects a "mandatory" TLV but doesn't =
receive=20
it, the message MUST be droped and =
an error=20
report sent to the sender.</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">OR</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">(2) if=20
flag is set to"mandatory", then the *sender* MUST =
include it in=20
the message for which it is defined</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">The=20
sender MUST include mandatory TLVs as defined by the=20
protocol-spec/applications.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">The=20
current protocols draft says for certain TLVs that they =
are=20
mandatory, but that applies to the sender of it =
(interpretation=20
2). The flag would indicate interpretation 1 (like =
for=20
Radius VSAs?)?</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">If the=20
higher order bit is set to "0" means that it is =
mandatory, then=20
currently defined optional defined TLVs suddenly become=20
mandatory which is not good.</SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj>=20
Only the currently used TLVs become mandatory. If =
they are=20
not used/implemented we can re-define them as optional =
(set flag=20
to 1) at no cost. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">But I=20
would first to understand the exact meaning of this =
mandatory=20
flag. Defining such a flag indeed looks useful but =
then as=20
interpretation 1, and I would say that if flag set to 1, =
then it=20
is mandatory and actually, it is possible that a TLV is =
sent=20
sometimes as optional and sometimes as=20
mandatory.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj>=20
Precisely, that is possible on a per application=20
basis.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Having=20
the flag would make troubleshooting of a message =
flow much=20
more explicit (today, with any problem one has to =
browse=20
the drafts to figure out what MUST be there vs what =
SHOULD be=20
there all while looking what is actually=20
there)</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Regards,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">regards,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Stefaan</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" =
SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">=20
ancp-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] =
<B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of =
</SPAN></B>Wojciech Dec=20
(wdec)<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>=20
donderdag 24 april 2008 14:19<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Busser, M;=20
ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Haag, =
T<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: =
[ANCP]=20
Mandatory TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20
proposal</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi=20
Michael,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">inline...</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: =
5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" =
SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">=20
ancp-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] =
<B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of =
</SPAN></B>Busser,=20
M<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> 24=20
April 2008 13:13<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Haag, =
T<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: =
[ANCP]=20
Mandatory TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20
proposal</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Woi,=20
all</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I see =
the problem=20
but i can not see, how an additional flag will help =
solving=20
this problem.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lets =
assume your=20
first proposal.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">If an=20
implementation does not send the complete TLV, =
even it is=20
defined to be mandatory, I would call =
this a=20
bug and I can not see, how an additional flag can =
help=20
here. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Woj> =
The way it=20
helps, and other protocols bear proof of this scheme, =
is that=20
it is easier for implementations to reconcile errors =
resulting=20
out of "Mandatory" and "Optional" TLV sets. The =
key to=20
this lies on a per application basis. One application =
may=20
mandate TLV A for operation, while another might not.=20
Resolving such issues when implementing or =
troubleshooting=20
multiple applications is not always trivial.=20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Your =
second=20
proposal seems obviously be required to keep =
existing=20
things working, if we agree on your first =
proposal.=20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But from =
my point=20
of view it also assumes, that all existing=20
implementations are using the same set of TLVs now.=20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">And I am not=20
sure about that. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Woj> =
This would=20
be a good thing for the WG to discuss. There most =
evidently is=20
a fair amount of "dead wood" in the current spec, =
ie=20
stuff that nobody yet implements or cares about. =
In=20
the former case, we could re-cast that material using =
the new=20
notions/extensions, in the latter case simply chop it=20
out.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Therefore I=20
disagree with your first proposal. I recommend, the =
better=20
way will be to be more precise in=20
definitions. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In my =
mind, it is=20
a bug, if a mandatory TLV is missing. It is up to the=20
robustness of the implementation to deal with =
this=20
situation.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is it =
really=20
neccesary to define the behavior of a network element =
in this=20
case of failure in the ancp protocol=20
itself? </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Woj> =
Other=20
people have faced this problem before, and I would =
rather go=20
with the lessons they learned, rather than clinging to =
hopes=20
of perfect textual definitions and implementations. =
Other than=20
backwards compatibility, I do not see in your =
statements a=20
valid reason to object to the 1st proposal,=20
particularly for new applications since it can only =
make=20
things more robust. The counter argument of being =
precise in=20
the definitions, as evidenced by the current spec, is=20
admirable and needs to be there, with this proposal =
providing=20
an extra level of robustness and visibility of any =
problems.=20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Woj.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If =
optional TLVs=20
are not present in a message, we should describe some =
kind of=20
default behaviour, as you already =
stated.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Comments =
on=20
=
draft-ietf-ancp-protocol-02.txt:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>=
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is =
not clearly=20
stated, if the TLV "</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">DSL Line=20
Attributes "</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> is=20
mandatory or optional. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In fact =
it is=20
mandatory because some of its SubTLVs are mandatory.=20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We =
should spent a=20
sentence to make this clear.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is =
not clearly=20
stated, if the TLV "</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Service-Profile-Name"</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> is =
mandatory or=20
optional.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I prefer =
mandatory=20
because it is essetial for the use case Line=20
Config. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Section =
5.4.3 Line=20
Config, where the TLVs are mentioned (page=20
35):</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> =
...defined=20
in section 5.4.1.... must be =
corrected=20
to ...defined in section=20
5.4.2........</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Section=20
5.4.4 OAM, where the TLVs are mentioned (page 36 =
and page=20
38):</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> =
...defined=20
in section 5.4.1.... must be =
corrected=20
to ...defined in section=20
5.4.2........</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Best =
Regards;=20
Freundliche Gr=FC=DFe <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
navy">Michael=20
Busser<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt">T-Systems =
Enterprise Services=20
GmbH </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D1><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Production Line =
Network=20
Centric Systems<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">ICT-Systems=20
Integration<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Network =
Integration=20
Services<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D1><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black">Br=FCckes 2 =
-8, 55545 Bad=20
Kreuznach<BR>Postfach 9100, 55541 Bad Kreuznach<BR>+49 =
671=20
8333 8911 (Phone)<BR>+49 521 9210 3859 =
(Fax)<BR>+49=20
151 1211 9689 (Mobile)<BR>E-Mail: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:michael.busser at t-systems.com">michael.busser at t-systems.com=
</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D1><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Internet: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.t-systems.com/"=20
target=3D_parent><p:onmouseclick=20
href=3D"http://www.t-systems.com/"=20
hyperlinktype=3D"url"></p:onmouseclick><FONT =
color=3D#6699ff><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
#6699ff">http://www.t-systems.com</SPAN></FONT></A>=20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D1><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">T-Systems=20
Enterprise Services GmbH<BR>Aufsichtsrat: Ren=E9 =
Obermann=20
(Vorsitzender)<BR>Executive Committee: Reinhard =
Clemens=20
(Vorsitzender)*, Helmut Binder, Albert Henn, Olaf =
Heyden*,=20
Katrin Horstmann, Ulrich Kemp, Wilfried =
Peters*,<BR>Dr.=20
Herbert Schaaff*, Zvezdana Seeger*<BR>Handelsregister: =
Amtsgericht Frankfurt am Main HRB 55933<BR>Sitz der=20
Gesellschaft: Frankfurt am Main<BR>WEEE-Reg.-Nr.=20
DE87523644<BR>*Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer gem. =A7 35=20
GmbHG</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D1><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Notice: This =
transmittal=20
and/or attachments may be privileged or confidential. =
If you=20
are not the intended recipient, you are hereby =
notified that=20
you have received this transmittal in error; any =
review,=20
dissemination, or copying is strictly prohibited. If =
you=20
received this transmittal in error, please notify us=20
immediately by reply and immediately delete this =
message and=20
all its attachments. Thank you. <BR>T-Systems =96 =
Business=20
flexibility </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D1><SPAN =
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D1><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
7.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" =
SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">=20
ancp-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] =
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von=20
</SPAN></B>Wojciech Dec (wdec)<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B> =
Mittwoch, 23.=20
April 2008 14:54<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B>=20
ancp at ietf.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B> =
[ANCP]=20
Mandatory TLVs in draft-ietf-ancp-protocol=20
proposal</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi=20
All,</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB> </SPAN><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Continuing with=20
the series of e-mails regarding basic protocol =
issues still=20
to be addressed, I now would now like to ask your =
feedback=20
regarding the distinction the protocol places on =
mandatory=20
TLVs. Given the length of this mail I'll first cut =
to the=20
proposal, and after it you can find the problem=20
description.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
proposal=20
which I am putting in front of the WG is to define a =
new TLV=20
format which contains at a minimum a Mandatory flag =
(much=20
like Radius VSAs do). We could have this TLV Flag be =
defined=20
only for new applications.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A =
second=20
proposal would be try to make this flag work with =
existing=20
ones by for example defining the highest order bit =
of the=20
TLV# field to mean "Mandatory" when set to "0". This =
would=20
be invisible to exiting implementations, but newer =
ones may=20
have problems in communicating with older ones when =
the=20
latter do not send all TLVs. But that can also be =
addressed=20
by simply forming the set of mandatory TLVs to be =
the ones=20
that all implementations currently send by=20
default.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Without=20
additional feedback, I will assume that the WG is =
fine with=20
the first proposal, and also with the 2nd one =
conditional on=20
deriving a suitable "commonly used" TLV=20
set.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
problem in=20
more detail: </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Currently the=20
situation is that Mandatory TLVs are only stated to =
be as=20
such in the body of the protocol draft spec, with an =
implementer having to scour fairly attentively the =
text. Eg=20
"Type (Access-Loop-Circuit-ID =3D 0x01): This is a =
mandatory=20
TLV", etc.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
behaviour of=20
an implementation that receives a message with a =
missing=20
mandatory TLV is not defined at all, and the =
opposite is=20
handled but not very robustly, i.e. when receiving a =
TLV but=20
not recognizing it, and implementation is free to =
discard it=20
(even if it is mandatory!). This is a recipe for=20
interoperability problems and an implementation mine =
field.</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This =
problem is=20
complicated by different applications. For example =
the=20
current OAM section states the following regarding =
TLVs that=20
are to be carried in the request message (my=20
italics):</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">"</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE> <BR></SPAN><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'">Following=20
TLVs<B><I><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">=20
can</SPAN></I></B> appear in this message:=20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
o Type (Access-Loop-Circuit-ID =3D 0x01) : defined =
in section=20
5.4.1 </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
o Type (Access-Aggregation-Circuit-ID-Binary =3D =
0x06):=20
defined in </SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
section 5.4.1. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE> <BR></SPAN><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
o Type (Access-Aggregation-Circuit-ID-ASCII =3D =
0x03): defined=20
in section </SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
5.4.1. </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
o Type (OAM-Loopback-Test-Parameters =3D 0x07): =
Parameters=20
related to </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
loopback test. This is an optional TLV. If this TLV =
is not=20
present </SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
in the request message, the DSLAM SHOULD use locally =
determined </SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'"> =20
default values for the test parameters. =20
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=3DDE><BR></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Courier New'">"</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE> <BR></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblack=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">(NOTE:=20
The last "SHOULD" appears to be inappropriate. If =
the TLV is=20
missing, the DSLAM MUST have some default =
parameters, or=20
return an error)</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">The=20
"can" above indicates that they're all optional, =
while=20
clearly the application cannot run its course =
without one or=20
more of these fields. Here we have a case where one =
could=20
have a perfectly compliant implementation that =
ignores all=20
these TLVs=85</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">-Woj.</SPAN></FONT>=20
<SPAN lang=3DDE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
12pt"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN lang=3DDE=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUO=
TE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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