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Re: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning



Sorry on my second question Im not referring new capabilities in terms
of new TLV's but to "new message types".

So Q 2 below now reads as: If in the future we want and need new message
types (for example) for ANCP, then another version/sub-version would be
required etc.

Alan  

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Taylor [mailto:tom.taylor at rogers.com] 
Sent: July 29, 2009 3:38 PM
To: Alan Kavanagh
Cc: ancp at ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning



Alan Kavanagh wrote:
> What about future versions that maybe defined??? It makes perfect 
> sense to do that now than later. Lets agree on the facts because you 
> just don't seem to get it, and i didn't even attend the meeting. We 
> are going to make the versions and sub-version noted in the draft to
3.2, agree?
> (simple yes or no).
[PTT] Yes
>  
> If in the future we want and need new capabilities for ANCP, then 
> another version/sub-version would be noted in another RFC, agree 
> (simple yes or no).
[PTT] No.

If the working group feels it would be beneficial and see's
> that this may come to light, then we need also a mechanism for 
> negotiating this (imho) of which the we may use the Adjacency
Protocol!
> I will try and craft some details on this and post it to the working 
> group list if people find this useful and with merit.
>  
> Woj, i keep my comments technical and not political, you should do the

> same as the ANCP Working Group Chair
>  
> /Alan
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Wojciech Dec (wdec) [mailto:wdec at cisco.com]
> Sent: July 29, 2009 3:22 PM
> To: Alan Kavanagh; Sanjay Wadhwa; ancp at ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 
> 
> Your post bears no useful or constructive input regarding the topic.
> Attempting to define backwards compatibility means drawing on a 
> normative reference to non-standard drafts and is not reasonable (a 
> reading of http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4897
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4897>  helps). Perhaps you could be so 
> kind as to give us advise the WG as to where ANCP version 3.1 is 
> defined and can be normatively referenced in a v3.2 RFC?
>>> I wont comment because that is obvious. 
> If v3.2 and v3.1 are 100% compatible, except for new capabilities, 
> then there is hardly a reason for a version change. The only way to 
> have a reference to v3.1 in an rfc re v3.2 is either as a historic 
> note, without claims of backwards compatibility, or publish two rfcs 
> (a v3.1 and then a v3.2). Neither of these proposals seem to be
appealing.
>  
> In addition, you may also want to reflect on the quality of your 
> conclusions and comprehension of general facts...
>  
> -Woj.
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> 	From: Alan Kavanagh [mailto:alan.kavanagh at ericsson.com] 
> 	Sent: 29 July 2009 19:11
> 	To: Wojciech Dec (wdec); Sanjay Wadhwa; ancp at ietf.org
> 	Subject: RE: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 	
> 	
> 	So what are you sugegsting will happen with current 
> deployments....!!! Like it or not Woj, fact is it must be covered, if 
> you dont agree then thats just your single opinion here.
> 	 
> 	By the time you agree on everything we will be onto ANCP Version
4.10 
> !!! We are spending far too long on getting this draft out the door.
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> 	From: Wojciech Dec (wdec) [mailto:wdec at cisco.com] 
> 	Sent: July 29, 2009 10:01 AM
> 	To: Alan Kavanagh; Sanjay Wadhwa; ancp at ietf.org
> 	Subject: RE: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 	
> 	
> 	Sorry, but reference in a future ANCP v3.2 RFC to a version 3.1
which 
> is NOT defined anywhere (in any normative reference or RFC) does not 
> seem to be acceptable.
> 	The (minuted) discussion did not cover the notion of how ANCP 
> "version incompatibility" will be handled. Given that we're not out in

> the WG to create version compatibility between an ANCP standard 
> protocol and an ANCP non-standard based one (or GSMP for that matter),

> it would seem that no new definition needs to take place. Feel free to

> discuss this further on this thread...
> 	 
> 	-Woj.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> 		From: ancp-bounces at ietf.org
> [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan Kavanagh
> 		Sent: 29 July 2009 15:51
> 		To: Sanjay Wadhwa; Wojciech Dec (wdec); ancp at ietf.org
> 		Subject: Re: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 		
> 		
> 		Exactly, hence we should ahve this explicitly noted in
the draft.
> 		 
> 		Alan
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> 		From: Sanjay Wadhwa [mailto:swadhwa at juniper.net] 
> 		Sent: July 29, 2009 9:48 AM
> 		To: Alan Kavanagh; Wojciech Dec (wdec); ancp at ietf.org
> 		Subject: RE: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 		
> 		
> 
> 		In order to ease migration, it will help if BNGs are
able to handle 
> multiple peers with different versions (e.g. a 3.2 compliant BNG 
> implementation able to work with a 3.1 AN and a 3.2 AN).
> Although implied by the protocol, we may want to explicitly state that

> version compatibility requirement is on an adjacency basis.
> 
> 		The draft will also need to define how the version
incompatibility 
> between BNG and AN needs to be handled.
> 
> 		 
> 
> 		-Sanjay
> 
> 		
> ________________________________
> 
> 
> 		From: ancp-bounces at ietf.org
> [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan Kavanagh
> 		Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:30 AM
> 		To: Wojciech Dec (wdec); ancp at ietf.org
> 		Subject: Re: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 
> 		 
> 
> 		Cheers Woj
> 
> 		 
> 
> 		The only point i would note (excuse if it was already
raised on 
> Monday as i did not attend) is "backward compatibility"
> between the different versions of 3.1, 3.2 and future versions 
> if/when/as needed. this should be noted in the draft.
> 
> 		 
> 
> 		Alan
> 
> 		 
> 
> 		
> ________________________________
> 
> 
> 		From: Wojciech Dec (wdec) [mailto:wdec at cisco.com] 
> 		Sent: July 29, 2009 3:33 AM
> 		To: Alan Kavanagh; ancp at ietf.org
> 		Subject: RE: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 
> 		Not entirely. ANCP already has a versioning field, hence
nothing new 
> is being defined. Also strictly speaking there is no distinction 
> between version and sub-version, so the choice of 3.2 is purely based 
> on custom (it can equally well have been 4.0).
> 
> 		Of course this will mean that all "pre-rfc"
> implementations will automatically be 100% incompatible with the rfc.
> 
> 		 
> 
> 		-Woj.
> 
> 			 
> 
> 			
> ________________________________
> 
> 
> 			From: Alan Kavanagh
> [mailto:alan.kavanagh at ericsson.com] 
> 			Sent: 28 July 2009 19:28
> 			To: Wojciech Dec (wdec); ancp at ietf.org
> 			Subject: RE: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 
> 			Hi Woj et.al
> 
> 			 
> 
> 			So are we agreeing that option 1 as noted on
slide 15 in the 
> Thomas's presentation is what was agreed on at yesterdays meeting?
> 
> 			 
> 
> 			BR
> 
> 			Alan K
> 
> 			 
> 
> 			
> ________________________________
> 
> 
> 			From: ancp-bounces at ietf.org
> [mailto:ancp-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
> 			Sent: July 28, 2009 5:30 AM
> 			To: ancp at ietf.org
> 			Subject: [ANCP] ANCP Protocol Versioning
> 
> 			Hi All,
> 
> 			During yesterday's ANCP WG meeting at IET75 we
discussed the topic 
> of ANCP versioning and in the room arrived at the following 
> conclusion:
> 
> 			The Pre-RFC version of ANC will continue to be
> 3.1 as per draft-ietf-ancp-protocol, however an RFC Editor's note will

> be introduced to change version from 3.1 to 3.2 upon publication of 
> the RFC. This will clearly de-lineate any pre-RFC implementations with

> post-RFC ones and alleviate the operators'' problems presented 
> (http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/ancp-3.ppt
> <http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/75/slides/ancp-3.ppt> )
> 
> 			Going beyond the publication of the RFC, the
introduction of new 
> capabilities or TLVs is expected to be handled by the capability 
> negotiation mechanism (and new capabilities) or possibly by 
> generalizing the notion of sub-capability currently in place for the 
> multicast-control use-cases.
> 
> 			We would like to get feedback from the wider WG
on the above, 
> especially in terms of anyone who was not able to voice their opinion 
> at the meeting. Based on the received feedback, we'll make a call 
> regarding the WG consensus on this matter.
> 
> 			Regards, 
> 			Woj. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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