Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope of RFC3986 and successor - what is a URI?)
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> Fri, 16 January 2015 13:57 UTC
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 13:57:39 +0000
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From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
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Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>, Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope of RFC3986 and successor - what is a URI?)
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A couple of points. I shall use the terms "URI" and "IRI" as defined in the IETF specs, and W_URL to mean the W3C/WHATWG/etc thing. On 16 January 2015 at 12:54, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote: > The WHATWG URL specification is not limited to browsers. It defines a > syntax that is fit for human production and consumption that is intended to > be consistently parsed by a variety of parsers in a variety of contexts. > Every modern programming language has a URI or URL parse mechanism. > > Yes, but it is only concerned with parsers. The IETF is mostly concerned with protocols. Taking the example of LDAP, this relies on schemas where a URI is transported in a IA5String, which is ASCII-only (loosely, it's actually 7-bit ASCII supersets). Allowing non-ASCII breaks this, no matter how we wave magic wands about parsers - the parser simply never gets to see the URI, because the BER decoder (or whatever) throws an error. > Minor is in the eye of the beholder. What I am gathering is that changing > RFC 3986 -- even in ways that only break things "on paper" -- is > controversial. > > I suspect that there are at least two different change types possible. A) One is to change reserved "ASCII codepoints" within particular components of an IRI. I think this is pretty reasonable to explore, and is the kind of thing that your work with examining the behaviour of parsers is excellent for. The output of your work essentially informs us on the actual levels of risk involved, and allows us to consider "running code", which, with something as widespread in deployment as this is tremendously important. B) The other is to consider changes to the range of codepoints allowed in a URI (or IRI) as a whole. For a URI, this is highly controversial, and I don't believe it is possible. That said, we clearly do have the IRI specifications (and their bis drafts), and if there is interest from the W3C I think we could find the energy to complete that work. Changing the range within an IRI would, I suspect, be similarly controversial. Even if every parser in the world copes fine, it doesn't matter. Examples of (A) include the "[]" in query strings, "#" in fragments, and so on. These I'm personally open to in principle. (B) includes things like allowing non-ASCII in URI fragments (as opposed to IRI fragments). It would also include allowing spaces, line feeds, and so on. > I welcome everybody to participate in the discussion as to what W_URLs map > to. > > I welcome discussion as to whether that mapping produces valid I_URIs. > > As to whether the changes necessary to the definition of I_URIs turn out > to be 'minor' or the end result being that W_URLs map to something that is > neither a proper superset or a proper subset of valid I_URIs is only > something we will know after those discussions take place. > > I _think_ there's an implication here that I at least had not been >> aware of in your previous references to "new URL(x).href". >> >> Is it in fact the case that the value of this expression (also I think >> what you've been calling the 'stringification' of a W_URL), _is_ >> exactly, byte for byte, what is put on the wire in HTTP requests by >> browsers? >> > > That is my understanding. To put it another way: if it is not, that would > be considered a bug. > > Note that stringification produces a string of Unicode code points. As > all of those code points -- with the notable exception of fragments -- are > a proper subset of US ASCII graphic characters, the mapping of such to > bytes is straightforward. > > At a minimum, the WHATWG/W3C specifications should be updated to make this > clear. > How would you feel about the possibility of having an API that looked somewhat like this: Given: u = new URL(S) # Accepts strictly valid, and certain invalid, IRIs. u.href # "cleaned" valid IRI string, with any syntax cleaned according to rules. u.canonical # "canonical" IRI string. u.toASCII() # "cleaned" URI string, for use in HTTP, LDAP, etc. So with S as http://café.im:80/tŷ/%2e <http://xn--caf-dma.im:80/t%C5%B7/%2e> u.href => http://café.im:80/tŷ/ <http://xn--caf-dma.im:80/t%C5%B7/>. (although variants allowed) u.canonical => http://café.im/ty <http://xn--caf-dma.im/ty> u.toASCII() => http://xn--caf-dma.im/t%C5%B7 How hard would it be to persuade parser implementors to do this? Dave.
- [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notification … Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… John C Klensin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-kerwin… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… Eric Burger
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] "local convention" in draft-ke… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Phillips, Addison
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Phillips, Addison
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Phillips, Addison
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… John Cowan
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Doug Royer
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] New Version Notification for d… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Julian Reschke
- [apps-discuss] URI parsing tests: userinfo handli… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] URI parsing tests: userinfo ha… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] URI parsing tests: userinfo ha… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] URI parsing tests: userinfo ha… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] URI parsing tests: userinfo ha… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] URI parsing tests: userinfo ha… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- [apps-discuss] Potential issues in RFC 3986 Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Potential issues in RFC 3986 Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Potential issues in RFC 3986 Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Potential issues in RFC 3986 Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Graham Klyne
- [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is correc… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] Potential issues in RFC 3986 Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragment … Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Parsing text into URLs that do… darrel.miller
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- [apps-discuss] Filesystem I18N, again (Re: Fwd: F… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… darrel.miller
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… David Singer
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] presumption that RFC3986 is co… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Fwd: FW: New Version Notificat… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] character repertoire for fragm… Graham Klyne
- [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor - w… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… darrel.miller
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope of R… Nico Williams
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Sam Ruby
- [apps-discuss] Terminology and scope of [UI]Rx-li… Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Hector Santos
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Terminology and scope of [UI]R… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Terminology and scope of [UI]R… Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… darrel.miller
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… darrel.miller
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] Terminology and scope of [UI]R… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Dave Cridland
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Terminology and scope of [UI]R… Henry S. Thompson
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… mike amundsen
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… darrel.miller
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… mike amundsen
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Sam Ruby
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] What does it mean? (Re: Scope … Martin J. Dürst
- [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Graham Klyne
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison David Singer
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison James M Snell
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Dave Cridland
- [apps-discuss] IETF lists Re: draft-ietf-iri-comp… t.petch
- Re: [apps-discuss] IETF lists Re: draft-ietf-iri-… Julian Reschke
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Sean Leonard
- Re: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-iri-comparison Mark Nottingham
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Larry Masinter
- Re: [apps-discuss] Scope of RFC3986 and successor… Graham Klyne