Re: [Asrg] Re: Anti-spam laws do work, FYI. There's proof.

[David Maxwell <david at vex.net>]

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Barry Shein wrote:
> On July 29, 2004 at 18:46 david at vex.net (David Maxwell) wrote:
>  > It's just a question of multipliers. Any MTA that accepts multiple
> It's not just the bandwidth and computrons (which are helpful to
> spammers), it's the IP mobility.
> 
> Spammers' methodologies are to use an infected zombie for about 10,000
> messages and then switch to another.
> 
> I could imagine ways to tie that back to the spammer, but no doubt
> it's easier to wriggle out of than if they were all coming from a
> machine in his or her home via an IP address they were paying on.

If almost every message coming to users from cableprovider.net said
cableprovider.net on it, instead of whatever random domain the spammer
or virus felt like inserting, then cableprovider.net would feel public
pressure to fix the situation. RMX solutions could cause that.

>  > > Previously, years ago, they may have used other methods of
>  > > distribution, but those methods have been successfully cut off.
>  > > 
>  > > I'd say "all" cut off but as they say, never say never. But the usual
>  > > old-fashioned methods of throwaway accounts etc.
>  > 
>  > Simply not true. Read the list archives.
> What's not true?

They've not been cut off.

Spam hosting for sale:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.asrg/7698
http://www.virusbtn.com/spam/asrg/jan04.xml

Spam-friendly ISPs:

http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/asrg/current/msg01936.html
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/asrg/current/msg06097.html

I'll stop there - since I have a feeling that the more links I provide,
the more text you'll have to scour and complain about something
unrelated to my point.

>  > >  > Spam was present on the net before commercial ISPs and Windows hosts
>  > > Now you're splitting hairs and playing with semantics, do you mean
>  > > Brad Templeton's archive of the 1978 message from the DEC salesman?!
>  > 
>  > I was thinking of Canter & Siegel.
> You don't think people used windows systems in 1994???

You cut out the line following 'Windows hosts', which starts 'were
plentiful'.

> *We* began as a commercial ISP in 1989.
> etc.
> But anyhow whether Windows systems are involved or not is a red herring.

Not when you are trying to argue against my point that spam predates
Windows viruses.

Please name a virus that infected Trumpet Winsock running Win3.1
machines, and spread spam.

>  > > It's not clear that spammers make much money at all. It would be nice
>  > > to see some hard evidence either way rather than more folklore.
>  > 
>  > How about a Porsche?  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4631849/
> 
> It's a $47,000 Porsche, big deal. You can get into one of those for
> under $5K (downpayment) and around $500/mo.
> 
> The Verizon lawyer for the Ralsky suit, at the 2003 spam conference,
> made a big point about how these guys tend to spend every penny they
> take in as fast as they can.
> 
> But, more importantly, there is absolutely no evidence that this not
> very expensive Porsche was bought with proceeds from spamming.

That's funny, because they convinced a Judge that he owed that much in
settlement.

>  > Again, spammer revenue has been documented in the list archives.
> Yeah? Show me.
> All I've seen is innuendo like your Porsche link.

Yes, I see that you already replied in the threads I was thinking of,
and said they were lies then.

> Show me a 1040, a 940, corporate taxes, payroll reports, etc.
> 
> Don't tell me one more time that one guy owned a porsche and another
> bought a house etc.

http://www.aarp.org/computers-news/Articles/a2004-06-10-spammer.html

$16,400,000 judgement against a spammer. Wonder why they'd award that if
he wasn't making any money.

> Anyhow, it's an honest question.
> What was the approximate typical gross revenue of a top (5? 10?)
> spammer in the past 12 months (6/30/2003...6/30/2004)?

I guess we'll have to wait for a spammer to go IPO to convince you. Of
course they aren't going to share that kind of information and make
themselves targets to vigilantes, the IRS, or people taking a piece of
their spam-pie.

-- 
David Maxwell, david at vex.net|david at maxwell.net -->
All this stuff in twice the space would only look half as bad!
					      - me


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