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[AVT] Re: Comments on draft-ietf-avt-tfrc-profile-05



Ladan Gharai wrote:
On Nov 7, 2005, at 12:36 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:


3. Section 4. RTP data header extension: Is the first 16 bits field values shared with the AVP profile or is this a new scope?


The text on RTP header extensions is verbatim from RFC 3551 - and no this draft does not define new header extensions.

See Colin's comment which is the issue.



4. Section 4. RTCP report interval: "This profile is restricted to unicast flows, therefore at all times there is only one active sender and one receiver." This formulation is a bit unclear. As there may only be unicast traffic but that doesn't present there from being multiple sources (SSRC).


Other than having a mixer involved, what scenarios exist where unicast does not equate to a single SSRC?

Streaming using the AVT defined retransmission format using SSRC multiplexing. There the server will have one SSRC for primary transmission and a second one for all retransmissions.




5. Section 4. Encapsulation: Should this profile be defined for use over UDP-Lite?


It is possible to do so, contingent on the draft also defining how TFRC deals with corrupt packets received: 1) as a lost packet - or- 2) as a received packet. Personally, I'd opt for 2.

This has been discussed quite heavily in both DCCP and TSVWG if I remember correctly. I don't think the general community has full agreement on the bottom line: Is corruption an indication of congestion. For a number of links that is not true, and thus I support option 2.




8. This draft is still not declaring the possibility to use AVPF RTCP feedback messages.


As it is possible to have multiple senders and receivers with AVPCC, there is a basic conflict between AVPF and AVPCC - as AVPF will suppress feedback packets to prevent implosion, and AVPCC relies on receiving feedback packets for correct congestion control. Clearly this depends on the scenarios where it is possible to have numerous senders and receivers with AVPCC?

For example request for FIR av we are working on draft-wenger-avt-avpf-ccm-01.txt is one that really makes sense over unicast link. Also the already defined ones, like the Generic NACK which can be used in unicast streaming cases to indicate that the receiver hasn't got some packets to enable them to be retransmitted.





9. Something that maybe should be clarified is if any congestion control actually occur of the return path. What will feedback message packet losses mean for the forward link and will that induce any reduction in the feedback traffic. In TCP losses of ACK will implicitly mean a reduction of the forward traffic which in its turn reduces the ACK path. However it is not obvious that TFRC will result in this. Which makes me question if some criteria for the handling of the feedback path is needed.


If feedback packets are lost (no feedback received for 4 rtts) the TFRC sender will half its send rate, per RFC 3448.

But does that effect the receivers feedback to the TFRC sender? To my knowledge TFRC will continue to transmit one feedback message every RTT. Thus no reduction in load. Unless TFRC is operating in one feedback packet per received packet.


The problem I see is that TFRC feedback traffic in itself is causing congestion on the path from the TFRC receiver to the TFRC sender. Will this congestion result in a lowered load on the feedback path. So far the only answer that I see is that when the session loses sufficient amount of feedback to half its forward rate multiple times then the application may shutdown the TFRC connection. So congestion must be quite severe on the feedback path for that to occur.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund at ericsson.com

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