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Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available

To: "Roni Even" <ron.even.tlv at gmail.com>, <avt at ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" <abegen at cisco.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:23:17 -0700
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Cc: "Bill Ver Steeg \(versteb\)" <versteb at cisco.com>
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Thread-topic: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available

Inline.

>         m=video 41000 RTP/AVPF 98
>         i=Primary Multicast Stream #2
>         c=IN IP4 224.1.1.2/255
>         a=source-filter: incl IN IP4 224.1.1.2 192.0.2.2
> 
> Source (192.0.2.2) sends the rtp packets to the multicast 
> group (224.1.1.2)
> with a dest port 41000.
> 
>         a=rtpmap:98 MP2T/90000
>         a=rtcp:41001 IN IP4 192.0.2.1
> 
> The feedback target (RS) address for this SSM session is 
> 192.0.2.1 and its
> port is 41001. This is the address/port where RR sends the RAMS-R, or
> receiver reports for the SSM session.
> 
>         a=rtcp-fb:98 nack
>         a=rtcp-fb:98 nack ssli
>         a=ssrc:123321 cname:iptv-ch32 at rams.example.com
>         a=mid:3
>         m=video 41002 RTP/AVPF 99
> 
> The retransmission packets go to port 41002. This is the port 
> RRs listen to
> for retransmission and RAMS.
> 
> Roni E: This implies that the multicast source defines the 
> port that all
> clients MUST use to receive the unicast information from the 
> Burst source.  

Yes, that is what it implies (One nit is that I would call it unicast RTP packets rather than information since we may use another port for RTCP packets).
 
>         i=Unicast Retransmission Stream #2 (Ret. and Rapid 
> Acq. Support)
>         c=IN IP4 192.0.2.1
> 
> This is where the retransmission packets come from, same as 
> the feedback
> target (in this example).
> 
> Roni E: If this is the address of the feedback target it 
> belongs to the
> above m-line (m=video 41002 RTP/AVPF 99) that according to 
> you gives the
> port on the RR and not on the RS. The problem is that 

This line actually specifies the sender for the unicast retransmission session. In our case, it just happens to be the feedback target for the primary SSM session, too. I recall some discussion about using a retransmission source which is different than the feedback target for the SSM. In that case, the address would be different, I guess.

> according to SDP the
> combination of the c= and port on the m-line provides the 
> transport address
> to where a stream will be sent so according to SDP this 

The port on the m line is the port where the retranmission packets are sent. However, c line denotes the source for these packets. RFC 4566 page 13 says that "... If the session is not multicast, then the connection address contains the unicast IP address of the expected data source or data relay or data sink as determined by additional attribute fields..."

Am I missing something?

> m-line specify an
> address and port on the Feedback Target and not on the RR and 
> only to this
> address RTP payload type 99 will be sent. I am positive that 
> this is not
> what you want.

There can be other payload types we might need to send on this retransmission session in the future. In that case, we will add them.
 
>         a=rtpmap:99 rtx/90000
>         a=rtcp:41003
> 
> This is where the RTCP packets for the retransmission session go. For
> example, RAMS-I goes to this port on RRs. RAMS-T goes to this 
> port on RS.
> 
> Roni E: So now you assume that the RR must use the same port 
> as the FT for
> this communication. I could not find any place that one 
> m-line gives the

Not the m line, but the "a=rtcp" line. Is this wrong?

> address for both sides. This RTCP port is on 192.0.2.1 so it 
> will be used
> for RAMS-R but not for RAMS-I.

RAMS-R should go to the feedback target address and port for the primary SSM session since it is a feedback message for the SSM session. But, RAMS-T is a feedback message for the retransmission session, thus, it should go to the RTCP port of the retransmission session (41003). I hope this also clarifies your question in the next email. If you think I got the ports wrong, let me know.

-acbegen
 
>         a=fmtp:99 apt=98; rtx-time=5000
>         a=mid:4
> 
> 
> -acbegen
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv at gmail.com] 
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:11 PM
> > To: Ali C. Begen (abegen); avt at ietf.org
> > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
> > 
> > Ali,
> > Can you please write three addresses from this strange SDP.
> > 
> > 1. The address and port of multicast
> > 
> > 2. The address and port of the RS where the RTCP FB should go to
> > 
> > 3. The address and port on the RR where the unicast stream 
> > should be sent to
> > 
> > Roni
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ali C. Begen (abegen) [mailto:abegen at cisco.com] 
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:02 PM
> > To: Roni Even; avt at ietf.org
> > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > Multicast RTPSessions
> > (RAMS)" available
> > 
> > > Ali,
> > > The example SDP is syntactically correct but it does not 
> > say that the
> > > rtp/rtcp mux will be used and it does not give the 
> > > information to where the
> > > unicast stream will be sent when the RR sends a RAMS-R. 
> > 
> > To my knowledge, the first line in the following SDP tells 
> > the RRs on which
> > port they will receive the retransmission/burst packets.
> > 
> >         m=video 41002 RTP/AVPF 99
> >         i=Unicast Retransmission Stream #2 (Ret. and Rapid 
> > Acq. Support)
> >         c=IN IP4 192.0.2.1
> >         a=rtpmap:99 rtx/90000
> >         a=rtcp:41003
> >         a=fmtp:99 apt=98; rtx-time=5000
> >         a=mid:4
> > 
> > There is a typo, you are right. That "a=recvonly" line should 
> > only exist in
> > the SDP sent to RRs. In the SDP sent to RS, we should rather have
> > "a=sendonly". I will make this correction in the next version.
> > 
> > The feedback target for the SSM session and the RTCP port for the
> > retransmission session are also defined in the SDP.
> > 
> > Hope this clarifies.
> > 
> > BR,
> > -acbegen
> >  
> > > 
> > > I am not sure why the unicast stream m-line has a port 
> > number with an
> > > attribute of recvonly. What is the use case for that. The 
> > > only information
> > > that the RR will need is the RTCP port on the RS to where to 
> > > send the RAMS-R
> > > message.
> > > Roni
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ali C. Begen (abegen) [mailto:abegen at cisco.com] 
> > > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:37 PM
> > > To: Roni Even; avt at ietf.org
> > > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > > Multicast RTPSessions
> > > (RAMS)" available
> > > 
> > > This is a part of an example SDP sent to RS and RR in a SAP 
> > > announcement,
> > > for example. So, the SDP describes what both parties should 
> > > do (RR cannot
> > > say that he wants to receive this multicast on its favorite 
> > port). The
> > > individual SDPs sent to RR or RS may include other portions 
> > > of descriptions
> > > that will contain specific information. 
> > > 
> > > -acbegen
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv at gmail.com] 
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:23 PM
> > > > To: Ali C. Begen (abegen); avt at ietf.org
> > > > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > > > Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
> > > > 
> > > > Ali,
> > > > I think you get it wrong, this SDP is from the RS and not the 
> > > > RR so the RS
> > > > cannot specify to which address it will send it can only 
> > > > specify to which
> > > > address it can receive RTP stream. In this SDP the relevant 
> > > > information is
> > > > that the request for retransmission will be sent by the RR to 
> > > > port 41003
> > > > Roni
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ali C. Begen (abegen) [mailto:abegen at cisco.com] 
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:01 PM
> > > > To: Roni Even; avt at ietf.org
> > > > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > > > Multicast RTPSessions
> > > > (RAMS)" available
> > > > 
> > > > Oh, I see. The burst goes to the port that we would 
> > > normally send the
> > > > retransmissions. For example, consider the SDP from the draft:
> > > > 
> > > >         m=video 41000 RTP/AVPF 98
> > > >         i=Primary Multicast Stream #2
> > > >         c=IN IP4 224.1.1.2/255
> > > >         a=source-filter: incl IN IP4 224.1.1.2 192.0.2.2
> > > >         a=rtpmap:98 MP2T/90000
> > > >         a=rtcp:41001 IN IP4 192.0.2.1
> > > >         a=rtcp-fb:98 nack
> > > >         a=rtcp-fb:98 nack ssli
> > > >         a=ssrc:123321 cname:iptv-ch32 at rams.example.com
> > > >         a=mid:3
> > > >         m=video 41002 RTP/AVPF 99
> > > >         i=Unicast Retransmission Stream #2 (Ret. and Rapid 
> > > > Acq. Support)
> > > >         c=IN IP4 192.0.2.1
> > > >         a=recvonly
> > > >         a=rtpmap:99 rtx/90000
> > > >         a=rtcp:41003
> > > >         a=fmtp:99 apt=98; rtx-time=5000
> > > >         a=mid:4
> > > > 
> > > > In this case, the burst will go to port 41002 on the RR. 
> > The RAMS-I
> > > > message(s), which is an RTCP feedback message, will go to 
> > > port 41003.
> > > > 
> > > > HTH,
> > > > -acbegen
> > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv at gmail.com] 
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:44 AM
> > > > > To: Ali C. Begen (abegen); avt at ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > > > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > > > > Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ali,
> > > > > I will try to explain in simple way
> > > > > 
> > > > > When the RS receives the RAMS-R it need to start sending an 
> > > > > RTP stream to
> > > > > the RR. 
> > > > > In order to send a unicast packet, the RS needs to know a 
> > > > > transport address
> > > > > on the RR to where the RTP stream will be sent. The current 
> > > > > draft does not
> > > > > say how the RS knows this address. There is no SDP from RR to 
> > > > > RS like you
> > > > > mention in your response.
> > > > > This is why I say that the current draft does not specify a 
> > > > > solution that
> > > > > can be implemented as a working solution
> > > > > Roni
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ali C. Begen (abegen) [mailto:abegen at cisco.com] 
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:38 PM
> > > > > To: Roni Even; avt at ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > > > Subject: RE: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > > > > Multicast RTPSessions
> > > > > (RAMS)" available
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi Roni, 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: avt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces at ietf.org] On 
> > > > > > Behalf Of Roni Even
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:24 AM
> > > > > > To: avt at ietf.org
> > > > > > Cc: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of 
> > > > > > Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think that the current draft does not give a 
> description of 
> > > > > > a system that works since there is no text 
> explaining how the 
> > > > > 
> > > > > What do you mean by "a system that works"? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > RS knows the unicast transport address on the RR to 
> where to 
> > > > > > send the stream. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Once RS receives the request packet from an RR, RS knows its 
> > > > > address. Ports
> > > > > are defined in the SDP. If you are asking about "NAT" issues, 
> > > > > we have a
> > > > > section for it, and we plan to complete it as we move 
> > > > > forward. It is not as
> > > > > critical as the other parts for now.
> > > > >  
> > > > > > If you mandate the use of RTP/RTCP mux it should say so 
> > > > > > otherwise the RAMS-R should have an optional parameter that 
> > > > > > supplies this information and a flag for using RTP/RTCP mux.
> > > > > 
> > > > > IMO, we cannot mandate muxing as it is not required to make 
> > > > > RAMS work. If
> > > > > muxing is supported, the SDP should reflect it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > BR,
> > > > > -acbegen
> > > > >  
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Roni Even
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > From: avt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces at ietf.org] On 
> > > > > > Behalf Of Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:39 PM
> > > > > > To: avt at ietf.org
> > > > > > Subject: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast 
> > > > > > RTP Sessions (RAMS)" available
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > There is a new draft of the "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast 
> > > > > > RTP Sessions (RAMS)" draft available at 
> > > > > > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-versteeg-avt-rapid-s
> > > > > ynchronization-for-rtp-03.txt <http://www.ietf.org/internet->
> > > > > 
> drafts/draft-versteeg-avt-rapid-synchronization-for-rtp-03.txt> 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We have incorporated the changes from the technical 
> breakout 
> > > > > > session in San Francisco. The major changes in this version 
> > > > > > of the draft include 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 1- Changing the document title to avoid confusion 
> with other 
> > > > > > ongoing "synchronization" drafts
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 2- changing the message names to reflect the title change
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 3- clarification of the RTCP message semantics, including 
> > > > > > changes to the "Request" and "Inform" messages
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 4- additional description/motivation for the 
> various message 
> > > > > > flows has been added
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 5- RTP/RTCP muxing has been added
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We hope to make this a Working Group item, and will change 
> > > > > > the name of the draft to avoid conflicts with other 
> > > > > > "synchronization" drafts at that time.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Bill VerSteeg
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>

Follow-Ups:
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even

References:
- [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTP Sessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTP Sessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [AVT] New draft of "Rapid Acquisition of Multicast RTPSessions (RAMS)" available
  - From: Roni Even

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