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Re: [AVT] RTCP_APP and RTCP guidelines



Paul,

I'm perhaps missing your point, but I thought we already had such an extension mechanism: register a new RTCP packet type? The ITU, 3GPP, or other standards bodies can register them with IANA as easily as can the IETF.

Colin


On 16 Aug 2009, at 04:39, Paul E. Jones wrote:

Folks,

Notwithstanding the fact that we have an Internet Draft on this topic that seems to discourage the use of RTCP extensions, they exist and there are reasons for them in certain environments. I apologize for dragging out a message that's so old, but it's still relevant and I did not see a whole lot of discussion on this topic this past year.

I think what Joerg has written in the I-D
(http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-avt-rtcp-guidelines-01.txt) provides good guidance on extending RTCP. However, since there are those cases where folks want to define extensions and since I'm pragmatic person that believes the world will not crumble to the ground because somebody somewhere is using an extension that might border on the "unintended use" category, I think we ought to define a generic extension mechanism and let standards organization like 3GPP define messages for whatever purpose they see fit.

I'd propose something like this:

=================================

   0                   1                   2                   3
   0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |V=2|P|  auth   |   PT=GEN=2xx  |             length            |
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |                           SSRC/CSRC                           |
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |E|                        message identifier                   |
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |                             generic data                    ...
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

(Where "2xx" is some IANA assigned PT value.)

Where "auth" is the authority that assigns the message identifiers:
 0 = IETF
 1 = ETSI
 2 = ITU
 ...

Extension (E): 1 bit message identifier extension indicator. If the indicator is 0, then the message identifier that follows represents the last of bits that comprise the message identifier. If the indicator is 1, then it means that there is another 32 bits immediately following that contains another extension bit and message identifier bits. All of the bits from all message identifier fields are concatenated in network byte order to form the message identifier. If the first extension bit in the RTCP packet is set to 1, then the bits in the message identifier field in that 32-bit block must have at least one non-zero bit. (This is to prevent left-padding bits with zeros that have no significance.)

Message Identifier: These bits form an integer identifier that identify the contents of the payload that is present as "generic data".

Generic Data: this shall be treated as binary data, the contents and meaning of which are defined in a separate document that defines the particular message identifier.

=================================

If we do not define something like this, then I would suspect folks will continue to use APP packets (PT=204) and just hope the name does not collide.

Perhaps this was debated at length somewhere (list of WG meeting), but I didn't find anything when I searched that suggested there was a firm conclusion.

What is the disposition of the group on this matter?

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: avt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:avt-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Ingemar
Johansson S
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 2:38 PM
To: avt at ietf.org
Cc: Colin Perkins; jo at acm.org
Subject: [AVT] RTCP_APP and RTCP guidelines

Hi

As I dare to say that there is atleast some kind of consensus that
RTCP_APP
should be avoided.
Lets pretend that we change all the RTCP_APP packets defined in 3GPP. The
involved specs I know are.
3GPP TS 26.114
and
3GPP TS 26.234
If one decide to use the AVPF feedback types (205, 206) instead we need to fetch two numbers from the pool. In the payload-specific feedback messages pool there are currently 26 unused numbers, which means that one could
probably use two of these numbers.

One problem I see is that many of the feedback messages are very
specialized
towards one particular service or codec which may conflict with the strive
to
define generic (feedback) messages. Also there is a risk of running out of numbers, something that, as I understand, can be solved with a few RTCP
payload type number.

Organizations like 3GPP likes to get their standards set relatively fast
and
this is one reason why RTCP_APP is the given choice. To avoid this the
alternative must be almost equally simple. I does not need to be as
simple, I
believe that in some cases it would be better to sit down and think about
the
options (like is hinted in the draft).

Suppose that 3GPP sends a request for a AVPF feedback type for a new
service
(could be an LS), what is the work order?, how is the new feedback number registered (a new RFC?). I beleieve that something that describes this
clearly
would be good to have in the RTCP guidlines.

/Ingemar
*******************************************
Ingemar Johansson
Senior Research Engineer, IETF "nethead"
EAB/TVP - Multimedia Technologies
Ericsson Research Ericsson AB
Box 920 S-971 28 Luleå, Sweden
Tel: +46 (0)8 4043042
ECN: 850-43042
ECC: 850-43074
Mobile: +46 (0)730 783289
*******************************************
_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt at ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt at ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt



--
Colin Perkins
http://csperkins.org/