Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket?
Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> Fri, 29 January 2010 11:50 UTC
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:51:13 +0000
From: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
To: SM <sm@resistor.net>
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Cc: Hybi <hybi@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket?
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On Fri, 29 Jan 2010, SM wrote: > > It then goes through an IETF-wide Last-Call where there is cross-area > review. I'm certainly all in favour of more review -- I'm not sure limiting it to the IETF is necessarily a good plan though. I would hope we would look for review from the entire Web community, including Web authors, and members of other groups such as the W3C. That is why the WHATWG announced a public last call last year and invited feedback from the entire community. If there are specific groups we can invite to comment on the spec who are not yet aware of the spec, I would be happy to contact them; do you have any suggestions on this front? > It is the consensus at that final stage that matters. IMHO it's the interoperable implementations that matter, but if we can get consensus as well then so much the better. > > But it doesn't mention the WHATWG, which is working on this spec. > > Yes, it doesn't. The Working Group would have to recharter if it wants > to add that. If the charter is to be relevant, it seems that acknowledging what is actually being done is important. Personally I do not put much stock in charters, so it's not a priority for me, but if people are going to refer to the charter, then we should make sure they refer to something that reflects reality. > > By whom? > > This charter was discussed on this mailing list by some of the people > who are part of the Working Group and that was what they agreed to. Does it not seem odd that the people who discussed where the spec should be edited did not include the person editing the spec? (I did not at any point see agreement on this list that the HyBi group should take over the WHATWG work without working with the WHATWG. I've read every e-mail sent to this list since it was created.) > > One could equally say: > > > > People from the IETF are welcome to participate in the WHATWG process. > > Yes, we could say that. But the WHATWG process will not get the > document published as a RFC. Getting the document published as an RFC is not a goal. Getting interoperable implementations is the goal. > To put it differently, you will still have to get the document through > the IETF process. That's fine, it's not mutually exclusive with working with the WHATWG. HTML5 and many other specs are going through both the W3C and WHATWG processes together, and are published simultaneously through both groups. > > However, instead, I suggest we work together, just like the W3C and > > the WHATWG are cooperating on a dozen other specs. > > I think that is an excellent suggestion. It is unlikely that there can > be a formal agreement between the different groups. However, the > individuals may be able to work something out. I don't see the difference between a formal agreement and individuals working something out. I'd be glad to work something out. The first step would be to change from the attitude of "the HyBi group is working on this and the WHATWG is welcome to work on something similar as well" to "the HyBi group and the WHATWG are working together on this". > > I sent feedback on Wed, 6 Jan 2010, to iesg@ietf.org. I received no > > reply. > > The IESG reads the feedback. If I am not mistaken, the IESG generally > does not send out individual replies for feedback they receive. The feedback had no effect on the charter, either. > > Actually, I was asked to submit it by the IETF. I agreed to do so > > while simultaneously publishing it through the WHATWG. At no point was > > it suggested that the WHATWG should stop working on it. > > The WHATWG can continue working on the specifications. This Working > Group will probably work on their own version of the specification too. No, that's not "working together". > The outcome will be two different specifications for the same > technology. I don't think that is in the interest of the Internet > community. It's not. Let's work together to create one set of normative requirements, not two. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Wenbo Zhu
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Hickson
- [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Rob Sayre
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Jamie Lokier
- [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (was R… Maciej Stachowiak
- [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Technic… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Roberto Peon
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was: Pro… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… SM
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process, was: Technical feedback. was:… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? John Fallows
- Re: [hybi] Intermediaries and idle connections (w… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie for WebSocket? Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Julian Reschke
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Thomson, Martin
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Anne van Kesteren
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! SM
- Re: [hybi] Process! Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Thomson, Martin
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Process! was: [whatwg] HttpOnly cookie… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Francis Brosnan Blazquez
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Jamie Lokier
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Technical feedback. was: Process! Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Greg Wilkins
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Pieter Hintjens
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Maciej Stachowiak
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Mridul Muralidharan
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Justin Erenkrantz
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Scott Ferguson
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Graham Klyne
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Adam Barth
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [hybi] Reliable message delivery (was Re: Tec… Ian Hickson