Re: Bottom feeders

[Ken Hornstein <kenh at cmf.nrl.navy.mil>]

>>That hasn't been my experience; I've seen what can only be described as
>>an "old-boy" network in operation.  I'm not saying that such a thing is
>>necessarily bad, just that sometimes it takes significant effort to
>>overcome it if you're a newbie.
>
>Since the IETF professes to be open, it's a good thing that we periodically 
>worry about the legitimacy of the claim.  On the other hand, we should not 
>start beating ourselves up unless there is some pretty clear evidence that 
>actual barriers to IETF entry are inappropriate.

Please understand that I'm not saying that the barriers to IETF entry
are inappropriate (but then, I'm not sure what _is_ appropriate).  I've
certainly seen much worse in other organizations.

>Being open does not mean that new arrivals are free from learning the 
>special handshakes and the technical peculiarities of our work; they are

Hm, my mistake, I guess.  I read on the IETF web page that the IETF didn't
have any secret handshakes; I guess I was wrong :-)

>The actual pattern of IETF community consensus is extremely friendly and 
>supportive for new folks who work to learn the culture and participate in 
>the work.

Okay, serious question time: exactly what are you basing this statement
on?  Converstations with newbies?  If so, you certainly didn't talk to
me, because I would have _never_ said anything of the sort.  If you're
not basing this statement on conversations with newbies, then how can
you honestly know whether or not the IETF consensus is friendly to
newbies?

The best model I can think of for a newbie at IETF is the old way you
used to teach people to swim: throw them into the deep end of the pool
and let them figure it out on their own.  You either eventually figure
it out, or you give up.  Things like the Newcomers Orientation are
helpful (and FWIW, I _did_ attend that), but it's akin to having
someone describe swimming on land versus learning it yourself; yes, you
have someplace to start, but somehow the details are missed.  I don't
fault anyone for this, because I'm not sure it's possible to explain
all of the intricacies of the IETF without actually experiencing it for
yourself.

I guess the point I'd like to make is that from my perspective, newcomers
aren't exactly welcomed; it's more like they're quietly tolerated until
they gather enough clue-points.

Now, the _other_ part of this discussion is: Is this an appropriate
entry barrier for newbies?  Even though I feel it wasn't perhaps the
most pleasant experience, I don't feel the current "entrance exam" ( :-) )
was that unreasonable; as Dave has pointed out, every organization has
it's own culture, and I feel it's reasonable for people to have to know
something about an organization's culture before they can be expected
to contribute.  It's just _learning_ about that culture can be rather
daunting, and I could easily see it being an insurmountable task for
some people.

--Ken (recent, and still sometimes, newbie)