Re: "Discuss" criteria

[Keith Moore <moore at cs.utk.edu>]

-------- Original Message --------

>    I should be ashamed of myself -- letting myself get ensnared in a
> flamewar with Keith...
>
>    First, let's restore some context. We're talking about
>
> http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/discuss-criteria.html
>
> specifically section 3.1; and I was taking exception to the last bullet
> in 3.1:
> ] 
> ] The IETF as a whole does not have consensus on the technical approach
> ] or document.
>
> Keith Moore <moore at cs.utk.edu> wrote:
> > [John Leslie wrote]
>
> > > It's high time we gave up any pretense that the "IETF-as-a-whole"
> > > should come to "consensus" about the technical details of RFCs before
> > > they're published.
> > strongly disagree.  I have seen way too many working groups working in 
> > isolation, often deliberately so, and without due regard for the harm 
> > that their work will cause.
>
>    Keith states a problem -- which although many of us might state
> differently, most of us agree is a problem; and then makes a giant leap
> to the conclusion that our defense against this must be to depend upon
> some AD to call for IETF-as-a-whole consensus after the IETF Last-Call
> has failed to turn up any specific issues.

I don't know where you get the idea that I've made such a leap.  Each AD 
is able to evaluate for him or herself whether there is consensus within 
the IETF as a whole.  The way this is normally done is to look at Last 
Call responses (or the lack thereof), though an AD may also choose to 
poll individuals or other working groups or mailing lists to see whether 
such a consensus appears to exist.

>    The proper cure for the disease Keith names has been agreed upon for
> years now: early cross-area expert review. Alas, we don't seem to be
> getting there.

I certainly agree that early cross-area review is badly needed, though 
I'm not convinced that limiting such review to a single or a few 
hand-picked experts is sufficient.

Keith


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