Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is ASCII
Martin Rex <mrex@sap.com> Thu, 11 March 2010 17:02 UTC
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From: Martin Rex <mrex@sap.com>
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Subject: Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is ASCII
To: richard@shockey.us
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:54:21 +0100
In-Reply-To: <000001cac135$c89bc680$59d35380$@us> from "Richard Shockey" at Mar 11, 10 11:13:26 am
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Richard Shockey wrote: > > I do get the arguments in favour of ASCII, though I think there are > some pretty serious countervailing arguments (like, for instance, that > we can't spell many contributors' names, to take an easy one). But > the RFC format _is not_ plain ASCII. Just ask anyone whose draft has > failed the increasingly stringent and lengthy list of IDNits tests due > to bad pagination in their I-D. The difficulty to spell contributors' names is a completely ridiculous reason. If there is anyone competent to specify how to spell his name in plain ASCII, then it is the authors and contributors themselves -- and if they are available at all, then it is during the process of their contribution and the document creation. The existing plaintext ASCII format is easy and univerval. Any more fancy document formats come with plenty of problems and infinitesimal close to zero benefit. Creating, displaying and printing, processing and updating the I-D and RFCs in the current form was possible 30 years ago, is possible and quite easy today (just try NRoffEdit once), and will be possible and easy in 30 years from now. All other formats will come with a varying number of problems. Taking an existing formatted ASCII RFC or I-D (which you did not author yourself) and putting it back into authoring format is round 1 hour of work with Nroffedit. Diffing various revisions of documents is fairly easy with existing tools e.g. http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff The problem with basically all of the fancy format is, that none of your existing tools can cope with it, the possibility to create that format is often limited to specific platforms, environments or tools. Diffing with previoius versions of documents is difficult, converting a "published" document back into authoring format is EXTREMELY diffcult, the size of the document often grows by factors, and searching and displaying such documents may require specific new tools and platforms and be therefore impossible for a number of platforms and environments where RFCs and I-Ds are currently displayed, searched and processed. And searching for and comparing characteristics of graphics or graphical drawings instead of text is a field that needs another two decades of reasearch. It is much better to force an author to spend an hour to express himself clearly in ASCII text, than forcing several thousands of consumers of the document to spend several minutes to many hours trying to understand, process, compare and put into re-authoring some fancy creations available in a fancy document format. When I'm implementing a spec, I often quote the relevant spec in code comments. Quoting ASCII text is easy. Having to describe a fancy drawing of a spec is a lot of work, for each and every implementor. Force the document author to come up with that textual description, and it'll be a big overall saving. -Martin
- Why the normative form of IETF Standards is ASCII Donald Eastlake
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Andrew Sullivan
- RE: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Richard Shockey
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tim Bray
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Mark Atwood
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Huub van Helvoort
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- RE: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Eric Gray
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… John Levine
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tim Bray
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… David Morris
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Stefan Winter
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Stefan Winter
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Ingemar Johansson S
- RE: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Dave Cridland
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tim Bray
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Mark Andrews
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… ned+ietf
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jari Arkko
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jari Arkko
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Jari Arkko
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tim Bray
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Periodic debates Dave CROCKER
- Re: Periodic debates Jorge Amodio
- Re: Periodic debates Dave CROCKER
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Periodic debates Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Lars Eggert
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… John R. Levine
- Re: I-Ds are not RFCs, was Why the normative form… John Levine
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tony Hansen
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Richard Barnes
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Dave Cridland
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Bob Braden
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… John R. Levine
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tony Finch
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tim Bray
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… John Levine
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… John Levine
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Why th… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Dave Cridland
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Ole Jacobsen
- A state of spin ... presented in ASCII (was: Make… SM
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… todd glassey
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Michael Dillon
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Bob Braden
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII todd glassey
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Martin Rex
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Randy Presuhn
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Melinda Shore
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII SM
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Masataka Ohta
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Michael Dillon
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Michael Dillon
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Tim Bray
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Michael Dillon
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Bob Braden
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Bob Braden
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Tony Hansen
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Yoav Nir
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Yoav Nir
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Periodic debates Sean Turner
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Dave Cridland
- Re: A state of spin ... presented in ASCII Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Make HTML and PDF more prominent, was: Re: Wh… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Masataka Ohta
- Using xml2rfc (was: Re: Why the normative form of… Doug Ewell
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Doug Ewell
- Re: Using xml2rfc (was: Re: Why the normative for… Fred Baker
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Stefan Santesson
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Stefan Santesson
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- NroffEdit updated with December 2009 boilerplate Stefan Santesson
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Stefan Santesson
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Yoav Nir
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Bill Fenner
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Julian Reschke
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Martin Rex
- Re: Why the normative form of IETF Standards is A… Stefan Santesson