Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues

[Randall Gellens <randy at qualcomm.com>]

At 10:41 AM +0100 7/29/08, Charles Lindsey wrote:

>  On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:34:57 +0100, Randall 
> Gellens <randy at qualcomm.com> wrote:
>
> >  ----------------------------------------------
> >  Proposed resolution of "List-*" headers:
> >
> >  EAI to define new versions of List-* headers 
> > which can have unencoded UTF8 values. This is 
> > just a trivial revision of the current forms. 
> > Like the current forms, each header can have 
> > multiple IRI, URL, URL, etc.  
> >  Note that this is orthogonal to new "mailto" 
> > -- when mailto-bis is ready, it just drops in 
> > as any other scheme such as HTTP.
>
>  But is that not equivalent to just saying that 
> IRIs are to be permitted (within the UTF8SMTP 
> universe) in places where URIs are currently 
> allowed?
>
>  And if it is not equivalent, then why cannot it be made so?

I'm no expert in IRIs, but my understanding is 
that an IRI can be represented either in UTF8 or 
in percent-encoded form.  I specifically said 
"unencoded UTF8 values" because I think this is 
the key point.

> >  A preference is for List-ID to be considered 
> > special and remain ASCII (same as Message-ID).
>
>  Agreed.

Yes, but, there is the sticky point in the next paragraph....

> >  ... There is an open question on 
> > internationalized domain names: since these 
> > are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be 
> > able to type them in.
>
>  Ah! So if we have
>     List-Post: <mailto:list at mañana.com>
>  (which is presumably an IRI), then is the 
> corresponding URI just a %-encoding of 
> "mañana", or is it a punycode thereof? 
> Actually, I think we have to wait for 
> mailto-bis to answer this question, because 
> mailto-bis might well allow something of the 
> form
>     List-Post: <mailto:list at mañana.com<list at manana.com>>
>  (i.e. and Alt address).

The point about internationalized domain names 
and Sieve scripts is specifically about List-ID. 
Since this is the unique identifier for a list 
and hence used in Sieve scripts, it should be 
permitted to be something meaningful that users 
can type in.  So, the example might be

	List-ID: list.mañana.com

Which would be meaningful, and presumably easy 
for users to remember and to type in.  Forcing 
this List-ID to be in punycode turns it from 
something meaningful and easy to type into 
gobbledegook.  However, permitting UTF8 means 
that during downconversion it will be encoded, 
and then there is the question as to if anything 
will recognize an encoded List-ID as being 
identical to the unencoded version.

> >  Note that allowing UTF8 in List-* headers is 
> > equivalent to allowing UTF8 in address 
> > headers.  Presumably, only EAI-aware clients 
> > will see either.
> >
> >  ----------------------------------------------
> >  New text in -downgrade:
> >
> >  List-* headers which contain native UTF8 should be copied into
> >  Downgrade-List-* and the UTF8 IRI should be dropped (alternate:
> >  encoded per IRI).
>
>  No! Don't drop it. Downgrade it to a URI, and 
> let mailto-bis sort out the result.

mailto is just one possible scheme that can be 
used in a List-* header.  I'm OK with encoding 
it, if the encoded result is always as valid and 
usable as the unencoded form.

> >  Add informative reference to new 2369-bis 
> > draft along the lines of "Since [2369-bis] 
> > permits UTF8 in List-* headers, which are 
> > vital to user's experience of mailing lists, 
> > this document needs to specify how such 
> > headers are to be downgraded and remain valid."
> >
> >  ----------------------------------------------
> >  New text in -mailinglist:
> >
> >  Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include 
> > an ASCII form of List-* headers as well as a 
> > UTF8 form. Because these headers are vital to 
> > good operations and use of mailing lists, 
> > special rules are defined in [downgrade] so 
> > that such headers are not stripped during 
> > downgrade, but are preserved with working 
> > values whenever possible.
>
>  Having invented alt-addresses for use elsewhere 
> within EAI, let us stick with them here. The 
> last thing we want is two mechanisms for 
> achieving the same result.

I don't follow.  What are the two versions?  The 
point is that an EAI-aware list can be created 
that operates behind a UTF8 email address which 
has no ASCII version.  That's perfectly OK, if 
people want to do this.  Presumably, the list is 
only for people who have EAI-aware clients.

--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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