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Re: IETF Trust FAQ



Wow Larry - did you take a "Todd Pill" or what? Its like listening to myself through a 1 & 1/2 year delay loop.

More in-line...

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rosen" <lrosen at rosenlaw.com>
To: <ipr-wg at ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:41 AM
Subject: RE: IETF Trust FAQ



Harald Alvestrand wrote:
are you still talking about the issue of extracting code from RFCs, or
have you switched to talking about the IETF's patent policy?

All along in this WG I've been talking about exactly one thing: The freedom
to implement any IETF specification under any open source (and proprietary)
software license. That's what "open standards" mean. Nothing else really
matters. That is the sole purpose for revising the IETF IP policy. That is
the sole reason for IETF.

Not necessarily - But I understand your point. If you want to continue the terraforming of the IETF so that it finally becomes what it was intended to be please continue.



It was not me but others here who insisted on transforming this discussion
into one about unhelpful distinctions between "code" and "text," and on the
unhelpful concept of "extracting code" to "make/use."

Larry - whoa - lets blame me for that OK - But what I am saying is that derivative uses outside the standards process arFrom ipr-wg-bounces at ietf.org Wed Jan 17 09:05:27 2007
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Ellermann" <nobody at xyzzy.claranet.de>
To: <ipr-wg at ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:26 AM
Subject: Patent licenses (was: IETF Trust FAQ)



Lawrence Rosen wrote:

I am absolutely opposed to any IETF IP policy that results in industry
standards that have fundamental patent impediments to their
implementation in open source
--and for that matter in proprietary
--software. Jorge just confirmed this to the group, in case anyone
doubts that our current policy has this effect.

+1

Fortunately any "patented algorithm" is AFAIK legally still nonsense in
my part of the world.  And I've no problem with a license saying "feel
free to use this unless you threaten us with some of your patent
claims".

The problem is Frank that it isnt in this part of the world and the IETF has to serve this country as well... considering it was created and financed here.



That's BTW the main reason why I pushed for something in the direction of "share alike". I hate "embrace, extend, and extinguish" strategies <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend%2C_and_extinguish>, and if folks try it anyway they should at least be forced to do this in the IETF with whatever it takes them to get the required "No Objection" by the IESG and the IAB.

Gee Frank - How is the IETF's process any different?


Frank



__________________________________________e what needed to be
identified.

By the way - I dont object to a true Open-Source based IETF as long as that model will allow commercial operators to processes their standards initiatives through the IETF.

One major mistake of this WG has been in thinking it was solving something. It isnt... The issues of the rights of the users are somewhat irrelevant if the internal standards process is so screwed up that rampant abuse is possible against those claiming the process is broken, like me.

What needs to happen is that a new level of accountability needs to be instillind into the Standards Process and its Players held to that standard.

The bigger issue is
putting software (whether derived from code or text in an IETF specification
or an original implementation of that specification) to work. That's why I
have insisted all along not only upon a compatible IETF contributor
*copyright* license, but an IETF contributor *patent* license that allows
everyone to make and use software-based products that implement IETF
specifications.

Scary thought that - I claimed the same thing a year and a half ago - search the archives and you will find me ranting about how Patent Rights cannot be separated from the Publishing Rights in a Technologies Disclosure before a Standards Committee, and to think so is ludicrous. What's amazing is that a year + after I was slammed by the management for saying exactly this about Patents, that you, the ex-Counsel to OSI, are saying the same thing...


 (I have written MANY emails on this topic; I have not
switched to a new topic!)

Now it has come to pass that this group charged off and accomplished nothing
of real value except a copyright license that nobody dares rely upon to
implement IETF specifications in actual commercial products. I partly blame
myself for becoming bored and paying scant attention to a lot of emails in
recent months, but regardless of fault this current result is foolish in the
extreme given the person-years that so many people have devoted to this
topic in this WG.

No comment.


The problem became clear to me again two days ago when Simon wrote that this
WG may punt the entire issue to another group, the IETF Trust, which will
decide something in private later. That's not an acceptable result.

That's why the Trust either needs to be disbanded or reformed under a new and more open charter. Also with specific milestones instead of a position on a foundation dedicated to creating permanent positions for people to hold rather than managing the IP's within the IETF.



It's time to make changes to this WG or create a new one. None of us can afford to waste more time on meaningless exercises. We need a clear statement of IETF principles agreeable to everyone who depends on IETF specifications, and an exercise in drafting by real lawyers who will write the rules in legally-enforceable terms.

Wow - didnt I say this too about a year or so ago?

This effort cannot be punted
upstairs to unknown others in the IETF Trust. There is too much at stake
here.

/Larry Rosen


-----Original Message-----
From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald at alvestrand.no]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:55 PM
To: lrosen at rosenlaw.com
Cc: ipr-wg at ietf.org
Subject: Re: IETF Trust FAQ

Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> Jorge Contreras wrote:
>
>> However, if a license is granted
>> under patents under 3.3.a, it is very limited and only extends to
>> standards
>> development work within the IETF.
>>
>
> That is precisely my point, and perhaps Simon's also. Well said!
>
But has nothing to do with the extraction of code from RFCs, which is
what Simon started talking about.
>
>> The licenses under 3.3.a (other than 3.3.a.E, see below)
>> do NOT grant any rights to implement IETF standards
>> in products.  IETF Contributors are NOT required to grant patent
>> licenses to implementers.  This has always been IETF's policy, and
>> there is no ambiguity here.
>>
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