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Tobias and Jorge...
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:42
PM
Subject: RE: LTANS WG Last Call on
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-scvp-03.txt
Hello,
*sigh* my company as many others has the policy
to include certain disclaimers in the emails sent out by their
employees.
As do most SOX impacted
companys too... The problem is that they (the disclaimers) mean what they
say and removing them doesnt change the corporate or entity policy which was
what was trying to be disclosed to the recipient by the Entity. Since you dont
own any email that is sent through the GW per the commentary in the Disclaimer -
it doesnt matter whether you delete the disclaimer or not - you still wont own
the IP therein. Any of it...
(note: Technically I can in fact remove or modify this disclaimer if
necessary.
Tobias - Again - I too can erase the
text the email tool I use puts on the mailings as a disclaimer, but that doesnt
change the corporate policy... so being able to delete the disclaimer text in
the outgoing email does NOT invalidate the corporate policy from
controlling that email. In fact it may in some jurisdictions it may be a
criminal to remove it since the material then misrepresnts
ownership and control of the IP itself.
Remember that (c) does not have to be
stated to be in effect. In fact no copyright message or warning is needed at all
anymore to have that media protected by copyright convention.
But as I would have to do this for every single email individually, I
tend to forget to modify my footer for the IETF. Maybe I could use a private
email instead, but this would also not be the most convenient
option...)
Although I understand that it might be interesting to make a
precedent case of my email, please note that this email DID obviously NOT
CONTAIN ANY IP content. So maybe not the best example?
Actually it contained plenty of IP - and
those IP's were documenting the functioning of the SDO's processes, and as such
it is possible to file for and have granted a utility patent against the IETF's
standards process making anything that documented that process real IP
therein.
However, as I might make this mistake in the future again - to
leave the footer as it is - any ruling from the IPR group of the IETF would be
pretty welcome. I would like to understand this as described by Harald, but of
course am no lawyer...
If this is not the case and my email is in fact
an infringement of the IETF policies, please accept my apologies. (If this
would be an infringement of IETF policies, we(IETF) should definitely also
very fast implement an automatic scanner for disclaimers and bounce back the
other violating emails as well.)
I agree. But the real issue is in
implementing the proper disclosure model so that the Hosting Sponsor Entitie's
are all regularly informed of any changes to their sponsoree's positions within
the IETF or legal requirements from the Sponsor's for their sponsoree's
participation. This is a key issue to manage and it means that the Corporate
Legal or HR department's must sign off on their employee/sponsoree's
participation under the IETF's rules.
Todd
Tobias
Ps.: I would propose to lead this discussion on
the ipr-wg list and not on ltans - unless you want to also discuss it on all
the other IETF WG lists as well.
-----Original
Message-----
From: todd glassey [mailto:tglassey at earthlink.net]
Sent:
Wed 6/20/2007 8:08 PM
To: Harald Alvestrand; Tobias Gondrom; Contreras,
Jorge
Cc: ietf-ltans at imc.org; ipr-wg at ietf.org
Subject: Re: LTANS WG Last
Call on draft-ietf-ltans-ers-scvp-03.txt
No Harald - ITS YOU WHO ARE
WRONG...
If Tobias doesn't own the mail server and/or doesn't have
legal power of
attorney for the mail server, then he cannot assign the
ownership of
anything to anyone sent through that gateway whether you like
it or not...
PERIOD.
But hey Harald - since you cannot provide ANY
basis in fact for that
statement you made, and yet you continue to insist I
am wrong... I suggest
that you get the IETF's lawyers to publicly say that
"NoteWell overrides any
and all printed disclaimers or IP Ownership
Statement's in any submissions
to the IETF"... and since we both know that
this will open the IETF to
litigation from every SOX impacted company on
the face of the planet
for attacking the controls they need on their email
GW's, I am betting
that you refuse to do this too...
That said -
Harald - either document that there is precedent in US Law to
set aside the
disclaimer statement in the Tobias' email or back off the
commentary
...
Todd Glassey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harald
Alvestrand" <harald at alvestrand.no>
To: "Tobias Gondrom"
<tgondrom at opentext.com>
Cc: <ietf-ltans at imc.org>;
<ipr-wg at ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject:
Re: LTANS WG Last Call on draft-ietf-ltans-ers-scvp-03.txt
todd
glassey wrote:
> Tobias I want to point out an inconsistency in how the
IETF operates...
> We are told that any and all submissions belong
to the IETF, but
> according to the text disclaimer in your filing, the
Open Text Corporation
> claims it holds and retains any and all rights
to the text herein. That
> means that the NoteWell processes of the IETF
DONT work here, and cannot
> by the very disclaimer you have on the
mailings themselves.
> This is not my doing - I am just noticing
this and asking how NoteWell
> can possibly be called into effect when
disclaimers like the one you have
> below are included in the mailing
since I see no formal way of setting
> those terms and conditions aside.
I dont mean this as a slam on the LTANS
> WG - this is the problem of
the management of the IPR WG who is
> responsible for this screw-up
IMHO.
There is precedent for this; the disclaimers on a message that
is
voluntarily and knowingly posted to a forum where the rules
are
different cause the disclaimers to be without any legal
effect.
In particular, by sending the message to the LTANS list, Tobias
Gondrom
is bound by the IETF rules on contributions, no matter what his
(IMHO
silly) disclaimers
say.
Harald
> Todd Glassey
>
>
----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tobias
Gondrom <mailto:tgondrom at opentext.com>
>
*To:* ietf-ltans at imc.org <mailto:ietf-ltans at imc.org>
>
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:33 AM
>
*Subject:* LTANS WG Last Call on
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-scvp-03.txt
>
> Hello
dear LTANS WG,
>
> to progress with
ers-scvp, I would like to announce WG Last
Call
> for this
document.
>
> Please make a last careful
review of the draft and submit
> comments,
questions and discuss items for this draft
until
> July-05, so that we can present a final
status on the draft at the
> Chicago meeting and
submit it to the IESG soon.
>
> Thank
you,
>
>
Tobias
>
> Chair of
LTANS
>
>
>
***__________________________________________*
>
*Tobias Gondrom*
> Head of Open Text Security
Team
> Director, Product
Security
>
> *Open Text
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> Phone: +49 (0) 89
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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