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Re: ISSUE: incoming 5.1, 5.3: requires participation of organizations

Simon - my responses inline below

----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Josefsson" <simon at josefsson.org>
To: "Frank Ellermann" <hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz at gmail.com>
Cc: <ipr-wg at ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 5:27 AM
Subject: ISSUE: incoming 5.1, 5.3: requires participation of organizations


"Frank Ellermann" <nobody at xyzzy.claranet.de> writes:

Brian E Carpenter wrote:

The IETF works with individual contributors, full stop. 

Good, maybe the BCP 78 legalese about some contributors
"representing an organization" can be removed or trimmed
or clarified.


I share this concern, and this messages uses the ISSUE-protocol to
register this as a last call comment (the WGLC lasts until Dec 17 if I'm
not mistaken).

True Simon but changing the language DOES NOT CLEAN UP THE MESS that was created when other IP's were subjected to being submitted under these BCP78 Rules.

This is the key problem with allowing ANYTHING but a production revision of an IP Contract into release. It (changing the language) also doesnt effect any IP issues for processes that are underway and which were filed under those other terms. SO placing this broken BCP78 into effect has caused permanent and ongoing pain/damage for some number of submissions.

What would you propose doing about them? My feeling is that the Chair or AD would need to formally contact ALL OF THOSE IP OWNERS and get an amended release under the new language.


The most critical text appears to be in section 5.3:

  To the extent that a Contribution or any portion thereof is protected
  by copyright or other rights of authorship, the Contributor, and each
  named co-Contributor, and the organization he or she represents or is
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  sponsored by (if any) grant a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive,
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  royalty-free, world-wide sublicensable right and license to the IETF
  Trust under all such copyrights and other rights in the Contribution:

This text appear to me to ask that a Contributor's organization (if any)
directly grant rights to the IETF.

I agree. In fact it makes the submitter 'claim that they stand with an enduring power of attorney' against those IP's... and we all know that isnt what happens here in the IETF. No one here except a few corporate inititaitve have the formal approval of those corporate officers so...


If Brian is correct and the IETF do not work with organizations
directly, but only individual contributors, the legal text that requires
organizations to grant rights to the IETF appears wrong to me.

The problem is that whether the IETF's submission policies say "AB&C" if the submitter does not actually hold that power of attorney for those IPs then whether they represent to the IETF or not that they do, their conveyance of the IP to the IETF isnt perfectable and as such the public disclosure of the IP in the form of a publication becomes a problem for the IETF.

The problem the IETF faces is that it doesnt matter whether the participants like this or not, but they are liable for those instances where damage occurs when IP's which are not properly licensed for submission to the IETF are in fact published by the IETF. And the IETF's trying to make it totally the responsibility of the party who is submitting the IP is ludicrous and unsupporatable in any Court I have been in. Especially without a formal Take Down policy and process which DOES IN FACT rescind the rights to use the IETF publication based on an IP Ownership Challenge.


Section 5.1 also contains:

  By submission of a Contribution, each person actually submitting the
  Contribution, and each named co-Contributor, is deemed to have read
  and understood the rules and requirements set forth in this document.
  Each Contributor is deemed, by the act of submitting a Contribution,
  to enter into a legally-binding agreement to comply with the terms
  and conditions set forth in this document, on his or her own behalf
  and on behalf of the organization the Contributor represents or is
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  sponsored by (if any), when submitting the Contribution.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My suggestion solution is to rephrase the text to say that Contributors
assure that they have the permission of the organization they represent
to share the contribution with the IETF.  This would be consistent with
only working with individuals rather than external organizations.

The problem is that the IETF cannot "Assume" or "Presume" that the individual in fact has that relationship and legal standing with their sponsor's. The fact that the IETF refuses to 'limit its liability' means that it and all those potentially at fault can be nailed in court here.


/Simon

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