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Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness



We went through this awhile ago, hence all this text about uniqueness. But it does seem, upon further reflection, that it would be a pain to check.

 

I think it is reasonable to keep the “different formats” prohibition.

 

I can understand why Mark and others would want descriptions to be unique too: how can users figure out which of the identically named items to use for what? In practice it is probably fairly obvious, provided one knows that, say, Dimli does appear twice and not just once. While it isn’t much work to check it, I wouldn’t be surprised to find something slip through. I think we could accommodate this by SHOULDifying uniqueness (we have already given the LSR broad editorial powers regarding descriptions). Perhaps add a paragraph saying:

 

<t>Descriptions SHOULD be unique within a given type of subtag so that users do not become confused about which subtag to use and the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD edit any that match existing descriptions to ensure clarity. For example, the language subtags 'zza' and 'diq' both have a description in ISO 639-3 of "Dimli". It happens that 'zza' (Zaza) is a macrolanguage that encloses the language 'diq'. Therefore the set of Description fields for 'zza' includes one that was edited to read "Dimli (macrolanguage)".</t>

 

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization is not a feature.

It is an architecture.

 

From: ltru-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:00 PM
To: Mark Davis; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness

 

The problem is that, as things stand, we would be dependent on ISO 639 RAs / JAC to set names in such a way as to ensure that uniqueness guarantee, and whereas we divide the alternate names for a given entry into separate description fields they just have a single “name” field – ie., they would have to ensure that no single name was ever used in more than one entry, a uniqueness guarantee that goes far beyond what they require. Clearly, that’s not a reasonable expectation. If we wanted to maintain this level of uniquess, then our only option would be to add text in 3.4 allowing the Reviewer to edit names coming from a source ISO standard by adding parenthetic qualifiers to ensure uniqueness.

 

But it’s not clear to me why we would really need *that* level of uniqueness.

 

 

Peter

 

From: mark.edward.davis at gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 1:34 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness

 

It certainly can be made to be unique across all records, without resorting to rocket science: change zza's Dimli by adding an annotation, like "Dimli (Zaza)".

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=zza
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=diq

Mark

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com> wrote:

The collective set of descriptions for a given record should be unique across records of a given type (modulo cases like Javanese). Doug has pointed out an existing instance ("Dimli") in which a single description field can't be unique across all descriptions for all records of a given type.

 

 

Peter

 

 

From: mark.edward.davis at gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:49 AM
To: Phillips, Addison
Cc: John Cowan; Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group


Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness

 

I disagree with this change. The descriptions need to be unique within the type of field. We can always qualify the names, eg "Ainu (China)".

Mark

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Phillips, Addison <addison at amazon.com> wrote:

(technical hat)

I agree... but this was done on purpose (the purpose of which appears later in the paragraph).

(editor hat)

I removed the overall uniqueness requirement, narrowing it to within a record and focusing on formatting variations.

--
<t>The field 'Description' contains a description of the tag or subtag in the record. The 'Description' field MAY appear more than once per record, that is, there can be multiple descriptions for a given record. The 'Description' field MAY include the full range of Unicode characters. At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST be written or transcribed into the Latin script; additional 'Description' fields MAY also include descriptions in non-Latin scripts. Each 'Description' field SHOULD be unique within the record in which it appears and formatting variations of the same description SHOULD NOT occur in that specific record. For example, while the ISO 639-1 code 'fy' contains both the descriptions "Western Frisian" and "Frisian, Western", only one of these descriptions appears in the registry.</t>
--


Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces at ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 PM
> To: Peter Constable
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] 3.1.4: description field uniqueness
>

> Peter Constable scripsit:
>
> > Each 'Description' field MUST be unique within a given record.
> Also,
> > each 'Description' field must be unique across the collection of
> > records of the same type with the following exception: if a
> particular
> > 'Description' field occurs in multiple records of a given type,
> then
> > one of those records MUST be for a subtag listed in all the other
> > records as Preferred-Value.
>
> I'd rather just abandon the restriction altogether and leave it up
> to
> the common sense of ietf-languages.
>
> --
> John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan at ccil.org
> [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin.
> Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which
> his
> theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral
> purpose
> in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory
> may
> have important survival value. --Ian Johnston
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru at ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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