RE: [Mip4] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt

["Tsirtsis, George" <tsirtsis at qualcomm.com>]

Raj,

I am not claiming that DS-MIPv4 is a magic bullet for anything. I am
only suggesting that it may be the most sensible way to go for a network
that is MIPv4 based today and wants to start moving to IPv6. 

Yes, there are many ngtrans tools defined (some think too many) but
DS-MIP is the obvious one that was missed. It was missed because at the
time ngtrans was defining tools, Mobile iP was not nearly as much
deployed as it is today and because the IETF had and still has big
problems with understanding mobility.

But think about it. Virtually every other ngtrans tool defines a
mechanism that automatically or semi-automatically configures tunnels.
Well, Mobile IP is nothing but a tunnel manager with a lot of bells and
whistles (for access control, authentication, configuration, network
mobility etc) and with mobility support for free. If a have a network
that already uses Mobile IP, and all the back-end systems to make it
work, why would I want to use some other tunnel management protocol on
top of it with all its additional complexity and overhead? Its just
makes no sense!

George

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Basavaraj Patil [mailto:basavaraj.patil at nokia.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:52 PM
> To: Tsirtsis, George; mip4 at ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Mip4] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt
> 
> 
> Hi George,
> 
> Inline:
> 
> 
> On 4/20/06 5:28 PM, "ext Tsirtsis, George" <tsirtsis at qualcomm.com>
wrote:
> 
> > Raj,
> >
> > The purpose of DS-MIPv4 is slightly different than what you present
> > below. Keep in mind that Mobile IPv4 (unlike Mobile IPv6) is
deployed
> > today in multiple networks, corporate and operator owned.
> 
> No argument about the fact that MIP4 has some deployment today and
MIP6
> has
> none. MIP6 is in a catch22 situation. You need IPv6 deployments to
enable
> MIP6.... So let me not speculate when, how, where this will/may
happen.
> 
> >
> > What we are trying to do is to allow these operators to provide IPv6
to
> > their customers with an incremental approach that fits their
deployment
> > scenario (mobility) and without having to replace their entire
> > infrastructure.
> 
> So the assumption here is that there are operators that want to
provide
> IPv6
> service and this can be enabled by having IPv6 carried over mobility
> enabled
> tunnels that are setup by MIP4. Well, if the operator wants to provide
> IPv6
> service there will be hosts that are DS...So now the question is how
to
> access the IPv6 island given the fact that it is only v4 that is
> ubiquitous,
> and provide mobility at the same time.
> Yes, you could do this using MIP4 as you explain in your well-written
I-D.
> Or you could setup IPsec tunnels to a VPN GW that supports Mobike and
run
> IPv6 over it
> Or you run Mobile IPv6 over v4 access as is being specified by the
design
> team (MIP6/NEMO).
> So in the above scenarios the last two require some additional or new
> infra
> to be added. But with MIP4 as well it does not come for free. You need
to
> upgrade the MIP4 HA as well as upgrade the MIP4 clients. So there is a
> cost
> involved irrespective of which path you take.
> 
> >
> > Think of it this way:
> >
> > - DS-MIPv4 extensions will ease transition to IPv6 for networks that
are
> > currently Mobile IPv4 based.
> 
> Hmmm... I wish this was the magic bullet.  But I am not sure. If
operators
> want to deploy IPv6, I think existing transition mechanisms are more
than
> sufficient to enable it. I don't know if DS-MIP4 is the enabler that
will
> change the status quo.
> DS-MIP4 is as I said, yet another transition mechanism that addresses
a
> small percentage of IPv4 hosts which are MIP4 enabled but I am not so
> convinced that it is "THE" feature that is currently missing which is
> prohibiting deployment of IPv6.
> 
> >
> > - DS-MIPv6 will allow green field IPv6 deployments to happen while
> > providing access to the IPv4 Internet.
> 
> True.
> 
> >
> > George
> 
> -Raj
> 
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Basavaraj Patil [mailto:basavaraj.patil at nokia.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 6:18 PM
> >> To: Tsirtsis, George; mip4 at ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Mip4] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> George,
> >>
> >> So we have many transition mechanisms for supporting IPv6 when a
host
> >> is attached to an IPv4 access today. Obviously none of them are
able
> >> to deal with mobility (i.e the host moving to different v4
> >> subnets). Your I-D basically is provding yet another transition
> >> mechanism for IPv6 with the added benefit of mobility. We are
talking
> >> about dual-stack mobile hosts here, right... And you would agree
that
> >> most IPv4 hosts do not have Mobile IPv4 client capability today.
Given
> >> that the host is a dual-stack node, it should support MIP6 as part
of
> >> its IPv6 stack. Hence it would be better to handle mobility using
MIP6
> >> and also provide IPv4 connectivity using such an approach.
> >> In your I-D you state:
> >>
> >> "
> >>    On the other hand, and more importantly, it allows dual stack
> > mobile
> >>    nodes and networks to utilize a single protocol for the movement
of
> >>    both IPv4 and IPv6 stacks in the network topology.
> >> "
> >> The design team in MIP6/NEMO WG is essentially working on
addressing
> >> the same issue for DS nodes. Why not use IPv6 mobility as the
baseline
> >> mobility protocol?
> >>
> >> The other point that I had was if connectivity to IPv6 islands is
the
> >> need of the hour with mobility, could you not address this by using
a
> >> Mobike solution that also provides transition GW capability on the
GW
> >> side?
> >>
> >> -Raj
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik at levkowetz.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 10:44 AM
> >>>>> To: Tsirtsis, George
> >>>>> Cc: Pete McCann; mip4 at ietf.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Mip4] FW: I-D
> > ACTION:draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi George,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> on 2006-04-17 16:34 Tsirtsis, George said the following:
> >>>>>> Pete/Henrik,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This draft was just updated and it is now available on the I-D
> >>>>>> directory.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Good, good.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Based on the discussion during the WG meeting we are requesting
> >>> for
> >>>> this
> >>>>>> proposal to be adopted as a working group draft.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right.  Well, we didn't have time for any proper discussion
during
> >>>>> the meeting, and there were voices which called for that,
> >>> explicitly,
> >>>>> so let's start by hearing what people have to say about this
> >>> proposal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Speak up, people!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Henrik
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Comments and suggestions are always welcome.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> George
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Internet-Drafts at ietf.org
[mailto:Internet-Drafts at ietf.org]
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 6:50 PM
> >>>>>> To: i-d-announce at ietf.org
> >>>>>> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > Internet-Drafts
> >>>>>> directories.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Title  : Dual Stack Mobile IPv4
> >>>>>> Author(s) : G. Tsirtsis, et al.
> >>>>>> Filename : draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt
> >>>>>> Pages  : 17
> >>>>>> Date  : 2006-4-14
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This specification provides IPv6 extensions to the Mobile IPv4
> >>>>>> [MIPv4] protocol. The extensions allow a dual stack node to use
> >>> IPv4
> >>>>>> and IPv6 home addresses as well as move between IPv4 and dual
> >>> stack
> >>>>>> network infrastructures.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >>>>>>
> >>>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tsirtsis-v4v6-mipv4-01.txt
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