Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED protocol changes at all?
Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Fri, 25 February 2011 21:07 UTC
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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:07:51 -0800
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
Cc: dnsext@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED protocol changes at all?
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On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com> wrote: > But as you can see, we can discuss all of that without recourse to the > specifics of the language, since the actual issue is that a zone > administrator knows a label to label mapping of the items. > > Dearly as I would love to agree with you, I fear I cannot. The actual issue is that humans interpolate well and canonicalize badly. We're exploring how to mesh the untidy reality that colour/color, 中國/中国, and a host of other examples are "the same" to those humans but not to an exact much look-up protocol. There are several classes of solutions we can envision. On is a referral from variants to canonical forms (like DNAME/CNAME and its synthetic friends). That works fine from a protocol perspective, but it requires there to be a single "real" label and variants which only point to it. Some zones don't want that result, for both political and practical reasons. Another is one in which there is no DNS change at all, but zone synchronization methods that ensure that the records at one label and those at another are in sync. This avoids declaring one to be "real", but has a very large potential cost in terms of applications which will not match them as the DNS is, in essence, declaring them to be distinct. Another is to create a "canonical + supported variants" approach. That would involve both mapping variants to a single label and storing at that label some information about what the zone maintainer considered variants, so that applications and local caches could treat them the same. The security properties of this approach are, to put it mildly, interesting, but for variants all within a single administrative domain, it is possibly workable. The operational consequences are also pretty daunting unless the record stores a pointer to some well-known representation of the normalization rules rather the variants themselves. This is a case where people want to treat DNS labels as human-friendly strings. They are asking us how far down that road we can go without breaking fundamental bits of the DNS's design and deployment. So far, I hear "we can give you referrals to canonical forms, you can give yourself synchronized zones, and we may be able to achieve a method that stores variant information with a canonical form". The label to label mapping problem is pretty clearly solved somewhere in that set, but it is not at all sure that the "humans interpolate well, but canonicalize badly" problem is or can be. Just my two cents, Ted Hardie _______________________________________________ dnsext mailing list dnsext@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsext
- Re: [dnsext] DNSEXT progress and possible meeting… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] DNSEXT progress and possible meeting… Suzanne Woolf
- [dnsext] DNSEXT progress and possible meeting at … Olafur Gudmundsson
- [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolution-02… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Lawrence Conroy
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Niall O'Reilly
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Brian Dickson
- [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Paul Vixie
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Larry Brower
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- [dnsext] bi-directionality Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Nicoll
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- [dnsext] does making names the same NEED protocol… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Michael Graff
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Brian Dickson
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Eric Brunner-Williams
- [dnsext] Terminological precision (was: the same … Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Olafur Gudmundsson
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Doug Barton