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RE: [Policy] RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06

To: "John Strassner" <John.Strassner at intelliden.com>, <joel at stevecrocker.com>
Subject: RE: [Policy] RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
From: "Pana, Mircea" <mpana at metasolv.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:13:12 -0400
Cc: bwijnen at lucent.com, policy at ietf.org
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Thread-topic: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06

John, Although very interesting, your arguments have failed to convince me that your suggestion would be a better option. We have to agree that we disagree ;-)

Joel, Unless somebody produces arguments to prove the contrary, I would like to ask you to accept the version currently included in the I-D (i.e. reuse of pcimRuleValidityAssociation for pcelsRule) with the revised Note 1 in section 5.4 on the premise that:
1. it accurately maps the PCIMe model
2. it does not violate current LDAP recommendations
3. it is a practical approach (simplifies implementations)

Thank you,
Mircea.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Strassner [mailto:John.Strassner at intelliden.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 5:05 PM
> To: Pana, Mircea
> Cc: joel at stevecrocker.com; bwijnen at lucent.com; policy at ietf.org
> Subject: [Policy] RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> 
> 
> I don't think we're making progress anymore. Regardless of what I may
> have said, or what you think I may have said in the beginning, I've
> given you very clear rationale as to what should be done.
> 
> One last time: you can't subclass the existing association because it
> was defined between classes that do not include pcelsRule.
> 
> I have nothing else to say, as I don't know how to make this any
> clearer.
> 
> 
> regards,
> John Strassner
> TeleManagement Forum Advisory Director
> 
> 
> John Strassner 
> Chief Strategy Officer 
> Intelliden Inc. 
> 90 South Cascade Avenue 
> Colorado Springs, CO  80906  USA 
> phone:  +1.719.785.0648 
>   fax:     +1.719.785.0644 
> email:    john.strassner at intelliden.com
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pana, Mircea [mailto:mpana at metasolv.com] 
> > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 1:02 PM
> > To: John Strassner
> > Cc: policy at ietf.org; bwijnen at lucent.com; joel at stevecrocker.com
> > Subject: RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> > 
> > 
> > John,
> > 
> > You have started this thread by asking: "why is there no 
> > pcelsRuleValidityAssociation subclass?" In a subsequent 
> > message, you have further detailed the issue by saying: 
> > "Looking at your class structure, since you subclassed other 
> > associations, I was surprised that you didn't subclass this 
> > one as well."
> > 
> > Besides, PCELS defines the pcelsConditionAssociation and 
> > pcelsActionAssociation classes by subclassing PCLS classes 
> > for the purpose of extending their semantics. Neither you nor 
> > any other reviewer of the I-D has expressed any issue with 
> > those definitions.
> > 
> > The latest proposal *does* accommodate your original request 
> > but I see you bringing up a different issue now. So, if you 
> > think that it is wrong to subclass the PCLS association 
> > class(es), please help me out by pointing to the LDAP (or 
> > other) specification that would be violated. I am not aware of any.
> > 
> > Thank you,
> > Mircea.
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John Strassner [mailto:John.Strassner at intelliden.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 5:45 PM
> > > To: Pana, Mircea; policy at ietf.org
> > > Cc: bwijnen at lucent.com; joel at stevecrocker.com
> > > Subject: RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Hmm.
> > > 
> > > First, I don't think subclassing helps, because the root
> > > problem is that
> > > pcimRuleValidityAssociation doesn't apply to a pcelsRule 
> > > (pcelsRule is a
> > > sibling of pcimRule. Thus, I believe that you need a new class.
> > > 
> > > Second, rather than pcelsValidityAssociation, could I suggest 
> > > pcelsRuleValidityAssociation?
> > > 
> > > regards,
> > > John Strassner
> > > TeleManagement Forum Advisory Director
> > > 
> > > 
> > > John Strassner
> > > Chief Strategy Officer 
> > > Intelliden Inc. 
> > > 90 South Cascade Avenue 
> > > Colorado Springs, CO  80906  USA 
> > > phone:  +1.719.785.0648 
> > >   fax:     +1.719.785.0644 
> > > email:    john.strassner at intelliden.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Pana, Mircea [mailto:mpana at metasolv.com]
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:48 PM
> > > > To: policy at ietf.org; John Strassner
> > > > Cc: bwijnen at lucent.com; joel at stevecrocker.com
> > > > Subject: RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > To accomodate the change requested by Joel, I'm making the
> > > > proposal below. Please review it and let me know as soon as 
> > > > possible whether you like or not.
> > > > 
> > > > Instead of re-using pcimRuleValidityAssociation, PCELS would
> > > > introduce a new class: pcelsValidityAssociation. This new 
> > > > class would be a subclass of pcimRuleValidityAssociation and 
> > > > it would not introduce any new attributes. Its instances 
> > > > would be subordinated to pcelsRule instances. (Much like 
> > > > pcelsConditionAssociation etc.) The pcelsRule class, instead 
> > > > of reusing the pcimRuleValidityPeriodList attribute, would 
> > > > use a new attribute (pcelsValidityPeriodList) as reference to 
> > > > its pcelsValidityAssociation instances.
> > > > 
> > > > In addition, Note 1 in section 5.4 would be removed.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Mircea.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:joel at stevecrocker.com]
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 9:37 AM
> > > > To: policy at ietf.org
> > > > Cc: bwijnen at lucent.com; John Strassner; Pana, Mircea
> > > > Subject: RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I have looked this over again, and I think I understand the
> > > question.
> > > > 
> > > > From an object mapping and class definition perspective, it
> > > > appears to me that extending the definition of 
> > > > pcimRuleValidityAssociation to point to a pcelsRule is 
> > > > probably not appropriate.
> > > > 
> > > > It seems to me thinking about this that adding a different
> > > > association class for the pcelsRule - time-period 
> > > > relationship will not adversely affect either existim PCLS 
> > > > implementors or future PCELS implementors.  Ruding churn in 
> > > > an I-D before publication is not a good reason to avoid 
> > > > making a technically correct change.
> > > > 
> > > > However, I could easily have missed multiple aspects of this.
> > > > If there are folks looking at implementing PCELS who have an 
> > > > opinion on the complexity of either the current "extension" 
> > > > or the proposed additional class, please speak up. If there 
> > > > are LDAP folks (other than John, who has been very helpful) 
> > > > who can shed light or opinions on this, I would love to hear 
> > > > from them.
> > > > 
> > > > Given how many times we have been around the block on this, I
> > > > would like to ask folks to respond within one week.  If we 
> > > > hear nothing, I will ask Mircea and company if they can make 
> > > > this one last change, and hand the document to Bert for 
> > publication.
> > > > 
> > > > And then we will officially close the working group!
> > > > 
> > > > Yours,
> > > > Joel M. Halpern
> > > > 
> > > > At 07:55 PM 6/3/2004 -0600, John Strassner wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> > > > To: "Pana, Mircea" <mpana at metasolv.com>
> > > > Cc: <joel at stevecrocker.com>,
> > > >         <bwijnen at lucent.com>,
> > > >         <policy at ietf.org>
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Mircea,
> > > >  
> > > > thanks for your thoughtful response.
> > > >  
> > > > Regarding the first issue, I still disagree. The definition
> > > > of the class doesn't allow this, even though the semantics 
> > > > remain unchanged. Since we are at an impasse, I'm happy to 
> > > > let Joel rule one way or the other.
> > > >  
> > > > Regarding changing the note in section 5.4, I agree with 
> > the change.
> > > >  
> > > > Regarding the DIT containment issue, I'm happy with your 
> > suggestion.
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > regards,
> > > > John Strassner
> > > > -----Original Message----- 
> > > > From: Pana, Mircea [mailto:mpana at metasolv.com] 
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:16 AM 
> > > > To: John Strassner 
> > > > Cc: joel at stevecrocker.com; bwijnen at lucent.com; policy at ietf.org 
> > > > Subject: RE: response to comments on PCELS-05/May 06
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Look for my responses in <mircea4></mircea4>. Sorry, I'm slow
> > > > to respond as well. 
> > > > Regards, 
> > > > Mircea. 
> > > 
> > 
> 
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