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AW: [PWE3] PWE3 question



Title: RE: [PWE3] PWE3 question
Let me add some precise numbers computed based on an example network with 300 nodes and 550 links.  n=100 nodes are PEs, 200 nodes are Ps.
The PEs are distributed randomly but fair. And so is the topology as well.
 
Case 1: Have n times (n-1) p2p LSPs, i.e. 9900 p2p LSPs, each routed according to the "shortest path" principle.
             Computation result:  99874 hops(=links) are needed.
 
Case 2: Have n mp2p LSPs, i.e. 100 mp2p LSPs, each routed according to the "shortest path to the egress" principle.Alltogether they take 19886 hops(=links).
 
Case 3: Have n mp2p LSPs, i.e. 100 mp2p LSPs, of identical smallest-size tree structure (each time another PE is the root of this tree).
            100 times 160 hops, i.e. 16000 hops are needed.
 
Case 4: Have n-1 pairs of mutual inverse LSPs which form a bi-directional tree of (elementary) tunnels between the n PEs. They are selected such, that the number of
            hops is minimal. 2 times 169 hops = 338 hops are needed. Additional Hierarchical LSPs, i.e.  concatenations of the elementary  LSPs, shall take care
            that  there is a   tunnel sequence from any ingress PE to any egress PE. 
            a) [n * (n-1) ]  -    2*(n-1)  non-merging LSP-sequences (=p2p  H-LSPs) are needed
            or b) n merging (mp2p) H-LSPs are needed
           Allthough b) is more conservative on resource consumption, you may consider the cost for the H-LSPs  according to a) as well according to b to be "ZERO
           for the network" (see may draft-hummel-mpls-hierarchical-lsp-00.txt)
 
 
Case 1 is indeed the n-suqare problem (99873 hops). Merging LSPs (see case 2 and case 3) reduce the number of hops considerable, let me say by 80 %.
Case 4 however is the way to overcome the n-square problem (338 hops instead of 99874 hops, i.e. a reduction by 99.66 %).
 
Will say: Merging LSPs do no overcome the n-square problem. I am sure, If I extended the network to let's say 1000 PEs and have similar meshes ( 1 to 5
neighbor nodes per node), the reduction due to merging LSPs stays by 80 % whereas the H-LSPs would yield 99.9966 %.
 
As you can see, the saving due to H-LSPs are immense.Therefore, why shouldn't we concatenate elementary LSPs, i.e. build H-LSPs?!
It is the same logic why we build routers instead of having a full mesh of physical links in the internet!
There are more arguments:
 
- Neither the n*(n-1) p2p LSPs nor the n mp2p LSPs can support Multicast at all (i.e.enable that some packet doesn't have to be sent multiple times over the same physical interface).H-LSPs however will reduce  that this will happen at least considerably. I really wonder why it is acceptable that a P-router may deal with
VPN-multicast, and why multicast blind traffic is acceptable (towards PEs which have no receivers for that Multicast application instance). 
 
- One can hardly affort x times n*(n-1) p2p LSPs or x times n mp2p LSPs, as to support alternate routig (traffic balancing, QoS-/Policy-sensitive routing).
  But one can easily affort  x times the number of H-LSPs. The costs for the network: x times ZERO = ZERO. Indeed, these costs are ZERO, when the
  messages for establishing the H-LSPs are tunneled thru these elementary LSPs, i.e. are completely invisible to the core network.
 
 
Regards,
Heinrich Hummel
 
Siemens AG
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: David Allan [mailto:dallan@nortelnetworks.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Mai 2002 22:52
An: erosen@cisco.com; Khalid Ahmad
Cc: Rutemiller, John; 'pwe3@ietf.org'
Betreff: RE: [PWE3] PWE3 question

Eric:

This one has been nagging me for a while:

<snip>

> Case 1: Martini signaling, mp2p LSPs.  The amount of
> resources needed in each
> P router is O(n).

An mp2p LSP mesh can be said to have O(n) egress points, but it has O(n**2) ingress points.  So if I compare the actual fabric consumed between a full mp2p and a p2p mesh I would get O(n**2) * (average network diameter) LSHs for p2p, and some fraction of this for mp2p (again a function of diameter in hops reflecting on how fast the ingresses merged on the egress). mp2p requiring uni-directionality then doubles the fraction as far as actual administrative/signalling load is concerned (each direction requires a separate set of transactions to establish).

So one can claim some incremental improvement in scalability via the use of mp2p but it is not this exponential thing that everyone waves about......in other words single level MPLS is a small fixed amount of time apart from ATM on Moores law curve (stacking being a different story).

cheers
Dave