Re: [Raven] And it ought to be remembered that there is...

["chefren" <chefren@pi.net>]

On 13 Apr 00, at 9:02, Richard Payne wrote:

> ch*fr*n quotes Machiavelli. Absolutely perfect.

I hope you do understand that it was a carefull selected 
piece of ancient wisdom to describe the majority of IETF- 
and Raven members as more or less clueless and fearing 
people without much oversight that obstruct probably the 
only way that can serve them the privacy they undoubtly 
wish and should have right to?

Our =society= CANNOT accept places where members can hide 
for law enforcement. If members of our society think guns 
should be free, law enforcement inevitably have to be 
equipped with bigger guns stupid but true. If members of 
our society think they should be free to use encryption, 
inevitably law enforcement will get means to circumvent it, 
bugs in keyboards, sniffer programs in PC's et cetera. Far 
more stupid than bigger guns!


Please get real, throw away that useless upcoming RFC and 
help =designing= a society with BOTH secure communication 
AND privacy for the people.

Not that difficult,

+++chefren



= =

> > http://home.earthlink.net/~stilling/Prince.htm
> >
> >   ..
> >
> >   And it ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult
> >   to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its
> >   success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order
> >   of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have
> >   done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those
> >   who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from
> >   fear of the opponents, who have the laws  on their side, and partly
> >   from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new
> >   things until they have had a long experience of them. Thus it
> >   happens that whenever those who are hostile have the opportunity to
> >   attack they do it like partisans, whilst the others defend
> >   lukewarmly, in such wise that the prince is endangered along with
> >   them. It is necessary, therefore, if we desire to discuss this
> >   matter thoroughly, to inquire whether these innovators can rely on
> >   themselves or have to depend on others: that is to say, whether, to
> >   consummate their enterprise, have they to use prayers or can they
> >   use force? In the first instance they always succeed badly, and
> >   never compass  anything; but when they can rely on themselves and
> >   use force, then they are rarely endangered. Hence it is that all
> >   armed prophets have conquered, and the unarmed ones have been
> >   destroyed. Besides the reasons mentioned, the nature of the people
> >   is variable, and whilst it is easy to persuade them, it is
> >   difficult to fix them in that persuasion. And thus it is necessary
> >   to take such measures that, when they believe no longer, it may be
> >   possible to make them believe by force.
> >
> >   ..
> >
> >   Niccolò Machiavelli, Il Principe, 1513/1514.

Simple translation:

Machiavelli described the problem that arises with the 
introduction of better ways to do things. Until the better 
way is fully implemented people, as conservative as most of 
us are, will always say the old solution was better and 
thus completely unnecessary obstruct the introduction of 
the better way.


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