Re: [Raven] Flames ending in Fireworks to mark the end of Raven?

["Richard Payne" <rcp@gfpx.com>]

In the ongoing (and probably pointless) task of attempting to debug
ch*fr*n's worldview, a few points:

1) Not everyone who disagrees with ch*fr*n is an American, so blaming it all
on Canada^H^H^H^H^H^HAmerica (South Park joke) achieves little.

2) A conclusion not to ch*fr*n's liking is still a conclusion. He can
attempt to define "productive" = "what ch*fr*n likes", but this is not the
standard definition.

3) Not all people in positions of authority are trustworthy, although the
Netherlands _may_ be exceptionally good in this regard. Asserting that they
are does not make it so.

Richard Payne

----- Original Message -----
From: chefren <chefren@pi.net>
To: <raven@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 4:19 PM
Subject: [Raven] Flames ending in Fireworks to mark the end of Raven?


>
> Uh oh...
>
> On 13 Apr 00, at 13:04, Matthew_G_Saroff@raytheon.com wrote:
>
> >         Yes, you know of a number of societies in which the rights of
the
> > society take absolute preference over the rights of the individual:
> > Stalin's Russia, The People's Republic of China, The Khemer Rouge
> > Cambodia, Nazi Germany, and (If Chefren is an indicator) the
Netherlands.
>
> (Matthew is a reasonable guy? Yes! thanks for not calling
> it "Chefren's Netherlands" or something like that.)
>
>
>
> Hm, when I think of the maximum preferences above
> individual rights I think "death penalty" and "spying"
> immediately "The United States of America" come up in my
> mind. And not those 4 primitive and 1 innovating countries
> you mention.
>
>
> Oh yes, your country "ensures" the rights of individuals
> with primitive means such as the Right to Bear Arms, wow!
> Pretty useless for your country and pretty bad for your
> citizens. Lot's of them end up murdered and lots of them
> end up jailed and some even murdered by The United States
> of America.
>
>
> Unfortunately you exported the virtual equivalent of free
> arms, free use of encryption. Not only that, also the
> fallacy that there are no other choices to ensure privacy
> in a decent way.
>
> It ends up with encryption being used by more and more
> criminals now and my pretty democratic and open country has
> to come up with means for law enforcement that are nothing
> less than disgusting.
>
> Technically no problem, my country can shop for the
> necessary tools in your country that has honed the skills
> to supervise citizens...
>
> +++chefren
>
>
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