Re: [Raven] Dear Richard,

["Richard Payne" <rcp@gfpx.com>]

Please read "Spyworld" by Mike Frost (ex-CSE operative) and then tell me
whether intelligence data ever gets misused.

Please also review the archives of this mailing list to find counterexamples
to the theory that power will not be abused. There have been a number of
them. Possible search terms: LAPD, Echelon, Frenchelon...

I believe that I understand your point of view, and that you are sincere in
holding it. However, I believe that you are mistaken.

By the way, I think you are correct that my (Canadian) intelligence services
spy on American citizens, since the CSE and the NSA are strongly suspected
to help each other out. However, I doubt that that was the point you really
wanted to make.

Richard Payne

----- Original Message -----
From: chefren <chefren@pi.net>
To: <raven@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 7:29 PM
Subject: [Raven] Dear Richard,


> On 14 Apr 00, at 13:00, Richard Payne wrote:
>
> > Confusing needs and wants is supposed to be the prerogative of
economists,
> > isn't it?
> >
> > To say "Law enforcement needs to do X" is, since only individuals have
needs
> > and wants, shorthand for "Some people in some law enforcement agencies
want
> > to do X". That they want to do X, perhaps with good intentions, does not
> > prove that X is a good thing, that they can constitutionally do X, or
that
> > threats along the lines of "let me do X or I'll do something even worse"
are
> > justified.
>
>
>
> Dear Richard,
>
> As someone else noticed we are writing quite some time
> here. Not really a year but in Internet time almost some
> years.
>
> Hasn't it come up to you that all your serious, respectable
> and even pretty exact interpolations don't fit to what has
> happened during Raven in the real world?
>
>
> I think the Wall Street Journal article about the NSA chief
> today clearly pointed at two main misassumptions. Your law-
> enforcement/inteligence services do tap and bug American
> citizens and they do it under strict rules and the scale
> isn't frightning at all compared to the attacked problems.
>
>
> +++chefren
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> raven@ietf.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raven


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