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Re: [Rmt] draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02 WG Last Call
Rod,
I just noticed that I missed to comment on this, please see inline.
On Mon, Sep 26, 2005 at 09:56:19AM +0300, Rod.Walsh at nokia.com wrote:
> So to clarify: is 3452 wrong about the RFC, so that IETF (currently RMT)
> consensus is enough? (And, what is the mechanism for documenting the
> consensus in case of arguments after a race condition?
not quite: the "RFC required" in 3452 is correct, however 3452 should
say "IETF Consensus" [which essentially means RFC required] and not
"Specification Required" [which means something else], please check
RFC 2434. .. confusing I know..
>
> (Note, doing the RFC is definitely a useful thing in anycase).
>
> Since the Raptor I-D exists, and the I-D has had email and meeting
> discussion - whereas the "oma null fec" has not yet been presented in
> the IEFT - I think it makes sense to rapidly form an RMT consensus that
> 1 holds for Raptor (reserved until IANA assignment or RMT decision not
> to assign Raptor - which doesn't make sense and I can not imagine
> happening). Anyone not support this?
>
> Since the IETF doesn't normally do the liaison statement stuff, it's
> really individual responsibility to communicate to OMA-BCAST (and
> anywhere else) that a request to temporarily hold an ID number would
> need to be made to RMT if IANA race conditions are to be avoided. (Short
> of receiving tens of such requests, I guess this scales).
>
> In the meantime, we're also aware of triangle and staircase codes so
> maybe there are 4 new fully specified numbers on the radar. (Vincent -
> fully specified or underspecified?)
>
> And finally, this raises an interesting question of reuse of RMT work
> outside the IETF (especially outside the IETF culture). It seems to make
> sense to allocate an "experimental fec id" (probably one fully
> specified, one underspecified) so new work doesn't need to go
> underground when implementations are tested before IANA allocation. This
> way the actual code allocation is not rushed while the code is still
> under work. This should also make it clearer that codes which have not
> been IANA registered yet should not be the basis of non-IANA decisions.
> (127 and 255 "feel right" for such use). Opinions?
I'm not sure I like this: it is confusing to allocate
fully-specified IDs without a ietf spec.. if the organizations that
specify these schemes are interested in IETF compliance and the
interoperability implications that come with it, I don't see
any reason why they shouldn't come to the IETF and move their work
through the WG. If they are not, they might as well allocate their own
(conficting) ids.
thanks,
Lorenzo
>
> Cheers, Rod.
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: rmt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces at ietf.org] On
> >Behalf Of ext Lorenzo Vicisano
> >Sent: 21 September, 2005 08:21
> >To: Michael Luby
> >Cc: Vedantham Ramakrishna (Nokia-NRC/Dallas); Paila Toni
> >(Nokia-M/Espoo); rmt at ietf.org
> >Subject: Re: [Rmt] draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02 WG Last Call
> >
> >All,
> >
> >RFC 3452 is clear about the assignmet of FEC Enc IDs:
> >
> >" An IETF RFC MUST exist and specify the FEC Payload ID fields and
> > formats as well as the FEC Object Transmission Information for the
> > value of "ietf:rmt:fec:encoding" (FEC Encoding ID) being assigned
> > by IANA.. "
> >
> >Unfortunatly RFC 3452 is incorrect in citing "Specification
> >Required" from RFC 2434, it should say "IETF Consensus" [this
> >got corrected in the current draft]
> >
> >.. nevertheless the intention of RFC 3452 is very clear, both
> >from the verse above and the rest of the specification.
> >
> >This process allow for race conditions, and IANA is supposed
> >to detect/solve conficts. Note that currently race conditions
> >are unlikely, given that RMT is the only place in the IETF
> >where FEC IDs are specificed [this migth change in the future].
> >
> >On the specifics of Raptor vs OMA: technically Raptor hasn't
> >grabbed anything until it becomes an RFC and its ID is
> >registered with IANA.
> >.. on the other side there is not any other fully specified ID
> >being worked on in our WG [apart from 0], so there are no
> >conflicts yet.
> >
> >If we start working on another fully specified scheme, I hope
> >that we will avoid conflicts even if raptor hasn't become an RFC yet ..
> >
> >Note that this last part of RMT trying to do comflict
> >avoidance is just my opinion .. seems common sense 'though.
> >
> > Lorenzo
> >
> >On Tue, Sep 20, 2005 at 04:36:18PM -0700, Michael Luby wrote:
> >> Wow, that's amazing! Didn't anybody at OMA read the FEC building
> >> block before trying to hand out FEC Encoding IDs? Perhaps the OMA
> >> numbering space is completely different than the IETF FEC
> >Encoding ID
> >> space? Anyway, as is clearly stated in the FEC building block
> >> (RFC3452, and also in the new FEC building block that is in IETF RMT
> >> wglc), the ONLY way to get an FEC Encoding ID is to have an
> >IETF RFC,
> >> and clearly OMA didn't do that, and the Raptor specification is in
> >> IETF RMT wglc with FEC Encoding ID 1 specified, so I guess that
> >> answers who is ahead and following the established procedures.
> >>
> >> Thanks for pointing this out, Ramakrishna (and Naveen).
> >> Best, Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: rmt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces at ietf.org] On
> >Behalf Of
> >> Ramakrishna.Vedantham at nokia.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 4:21 PM
> >> To: lorenzo at cisco.com; rmt at ietf.org
> >> Cc: toni.paila at nokia.com
> >> Subject: RE: [Rmt] draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02 WG
> >Last Call
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Has the FEC Encoding ID = 1 been already reserved for Raptor FEC?
> >>
> >> The latest version of OMA BCAST SG
> >>
> >http://member.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/BAC/BCAST/Pe
> >> rmanen t_documents/OMA-TS-BCAST_ServiceGuide-V1_0_0-20050910-D.zip
> >> defines another null-FEC scheme with FEC Encoding ID = 1.
> >This has to
> >> be registered with IANA by the proponents.
> >>
> >> But it is not clear who is ahead of the race to IANA, IETF
> >RMT or OMA BCAST.
> >>
> >> Would you please clarify this issue?
> >>
> >> (Thanks to Naveen of Qualcomm to point this out after the last SA4
> >> meeting.)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ramakrishna Vedantham.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: rmt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces at ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> >> ext Lorenzo Vicisano
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:54 PM
> >> To: Michael Luby
> >> Cc: Walsh Rod (Nokia-NRC/Tampere); rmt at ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Rmt] draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02 WG
> >Last Call
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> the two WGLCs are overlapped: both drafts are in right now and
> >> feedback is welcome for both of them, we jsut moved the deadline for
> >> Raptor by one week.
> >>
> >> Considering the normal IETF times, this is unlikely to have
> >an impact
> >> in the date of publication of the RFC.
> >>
> >> > wglc back by a week, and there are some good reasons why
> >it would be
> >> > good
> >> to
> >> > have the FEC bb and the Raptor wglcs finished by the end
> >of the week
> >> > of September 26. I've never seen another IETF wg that
> >tried to keep
> >> > the
> >> wglcs
> >>
> >> please state the reasons.
> >>
> >> Note that this is a fairly informal process: if needed we can delay
> >> asking the IESG to review the FEC BB.. in case something comes up to
> >> require another WGLC. Also note that other FEC IDs are behind and
> >> still have to enter WGLC.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Lorenzo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 04:24:27PM -0700, Michael Luby wrote:
> >> > All,
> >> > I don't understand this. Rod admittedly is going to do his wglc
> >> > review at the last minute on the last day, and for this the Raptor
> >> > wglc is pushed
> >> back
> >> > a week? I don't understand why this is a reasonable argument to
> >> > push the non-overlapped, and if I remember correctly the
> >first time
> >> > around the FEC bb, the LCT bb and the ALC pi were all in wglc at
> >> > exactly the same time
> >> and
> >> > all finished wglc at exactly the same time within the RMT wg.
> >> > Mike
> >> >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: rmt-bounces at ietf.org
> >[mailto:rmt-bounces at ietf.org]On Behalf
> >> > > Of Lorenzo Vicisano
> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:31 AM
> >> > > To: Rod.Walsh at nokia.com
> >> > > Cc: rmt at ietf.org
> >> > > Subject: Re: [Rmt]
> >draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02 WG Last
> >> > > Call
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Rod,
> >> > >
> >> > > this is reasonable: let's make October 3rd the feedback deadline
> >> > > for draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02.
> >> > >
> >> > > thanks,
> >> > > Lorenzo
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 04:53:04PM +0300,
> >Rod.Walsh at nokia.com wrote:
> >> > > > Hi Lorenzo et al.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is there any chance of shifting the raptor date back
> >one week so
> >> > > > we don't have to do two reviews at the last minute on
> >the same day?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (Yes I feel ashamed for openly admitting to leaving reviews to
> >> > > > the
> >> last
> >> > > > minute - I know I'm not the only one though :)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Cheers, Rod.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> >> > > > >From: rmt-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces at ietf.org] On
> >> > > > >Behalf Of ext Lorenzo Vicisano
> >> > > > >Sent: 12 September, 2005 09:34
> >> > > > >To: rmt at ietf.org
> >> > > > >Subject: [Rmt] draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02 WG Last
> >> > > > >Call
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Please be advised that this email starts RMT working group
> >> > > > >last-call for draft-ietf-rmt-bb-fec-raptor-object-02.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Please provide your comments by Monday September 26th, if any.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > thank you,
> >> > > > > Lorenzo Vicisano
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >_______________________________________________
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> >> > > > >Rmt at ietf.org
> >> > > > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rmt
> >> > > > >
> >> > >
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> >> > >
> >>
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