[Sipping] 答复: RE: RE: RE: Re: Summary of Closing the offer/answer rollback issue?

[gao.yang2 at zte.com.cn]

I think so now. And you can ask Gonzalo
if he think it is the only branching.

But I want to know that if I or someone else find
new branching, can it be talked?

"Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg at ericsson.com>

2009-03-02 15:00

收件人	<gao.yang2 at zte.com.cn>
抄送	"Gonzalo Camarillo" <gonzalo.camarillo at ericsson.com>, "Hadriel Kaplan" <HKaplan at acmepacket.com>, "sipping" <sipping at ietf.org>, <sipping-bounces at ietf.org>
主题	RE: RE: RE: Re: [Sipping] Summary of Closing the offer/answer rollback issue?

>>Then that is: Considering RFCs, "refine codecs" is "a
new modification". 
>>                 
>>Not considering "evolution and extension", it is still
a solution without any violation of RFCs. 
>
>Yes, but that was not the point. I am trying to figure out what the
differences between the proposals are. 
>
>[Gao] Yes. 
>
>But what I think important for "evolution and extension"
is nested transaction. And if using something like "a= chain"(RFC3108)
in Offer/Answer, nested transaction concept can be more 
>effective.

Yes, but we can have "something likes" - we need clear rules.

>So, again: is the "late commitment" currently the ONLY difference
between yours and Gonzalo's proposals, or is there something else? 
>
>[Gao] IMO, "Late commitment" is the most important branching
for current SIP/SDP usage. 

That is not what I asked.

Regards,

Christer



                
                
                
                
                
                "Christer
Holmberg" <christer.holmberg at ericsson.com> 

                2009-03-02 14:21

                    
            
                    
            收件人
                    
            <gao.yang2 at zte.com.cn>
                    
            抄送
                    
            "Gonzalo Camarillo"
<gonzalo.camarillo at ericsson.com>, "Hadriel Kaplan" <HKaplan at acmepacket.com>,
"sipping" <sipping at ietf.org>, <sipping-bounces at ietf.org>
                    
            主题
                    
            RE: Re: [Sipping] Summary of
Closing the offer/answer rollback issue?

                    
            




                Hi, 
                  
                Again, I strongly
do NOT think we should choose an "evolution and extension" approach,
and let organizations decide what is a new modification, and what isn't.
Again, you can have entities which belong to DIFFERENT organizations´communicating
with each other, and those should have a common understanding of the rules.
                  
                If you have a closed
network, where you know that every entity belongs to a single organization,
you can of course do whatever you want. But, in that case you don't need
to standardize it. 
                  
                Regards, 
                  
                Christer 
                
                
________________________________

                From: gao.yang2 at zte.com.cn
[mailto:gao.yang2 at zte.com.cn] 
                Sent: 2. maaliskuuta
2009 5:47
                To: Christer Holmberg
                Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo;
Hadriel Kaplan; sipping; sipping-bounces at ietf.org
                Subject: 答复:
Re: [Sipping] Summary of Closing the offer/answer rollback issue?
                
                
                My draft is open
for evolution and extension. My view is that: 
                
                Considering RFCs,
"refine codecs" is "a new modification". And if some
one(org/operator/internal usage) think "refine codecs" is part
of the original modification. It still can assure its session state by
nested transaction concept. 
                
                Some custom-built
one really treated it as part of the original modification. 
                
                
                
                
                "Christer
Holmberg" <christer.holmberg at ericsson.com> 
                发件人:  sipping-bounces at ietf.org

                2009-03-02 05:30

                    
            
                
                    
            收件人
                    
            "Hadriel Kaplan" <HKaplan at acmepacket.com>,
"Gonzalo Camarillo" <gonzalo.camarillo at ericsson.com>, "sipping"
<sipping at ietf.org> 
                    
            抄送
                    
            
                    
            主题
                    
            Re: [Sipping] Summary of Closing
the offer/answer rollback issue?


                    
            


                
                
                
                
                Hi Hadriel,
                
                I guess Gonzalo
will provide his summary soon, but I don't think there
                is currently a
disagreement regarding pre-conditions. You call them
                "conditional
offers", Gao calls them "notifications", but that's just
                wording... :)
                
                I think the one
of the main issues at the moment is what happens after
                preconditions have
been met on both sides:
                
                1) Is the change
now commited/in-use, and a re-INVITE failure would not
                change that?  
                     
              <----- "in-use"
                alternative
                
                OR
                
                2) Would a re-INVITE
failure cause a fallback (this is what is meant by
                "late commitment")?
                     
         <---- "late
                commitment"
alternative
                
                
                If preconditions
have NOT been met, and the re-INVITE fails, I think
                most agree that
there will be a rollback to the "last committed state".
                
                
                Gao's draft also
talk about other changes which would not be considered
                as "real"
SDP offers, for example if you reduce codecs. But, at least I
                strongly prefer
NOT to go into such details, because that would for sure
                cause interop issues.
I am not sure what Gao's view on that is at the
                moment, though?
                
                
                Regarding the race
condition, I think we can avoid that with some BCP-
                and guidance text.
                
                
                Regards,
                
                Christer
                
                
                
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Hadriel Kaplan
[mailto:HKaplan at acmepacket.com] 
                Sent: Saturday,
February 28, 2009 5:26 PM
                To: Christer Holmberg;
Gonzalo Camarillo; sipping
                Subject: Summary
of Closing the offer/answer rollback issue?
                
                
                Is there an email
in this long thread that summarizes the issues?
                It's impossible
to follow this thread. :)
                
                I'm not clear on
what the issues are with pre-conditions that make
                failed offers concept
break.  To me, pre-conditions are basically not
                real SDP offers;
they're conditional offers.  Until the *all* the
                conditions are
met, it's not "committed".  You continue using the last
                committed state.
 I know there are race conditions, but considering how
                rare pre-conditions
are in the real world (especially in re-Invite's),
                that I'm having
trouble imagining why we should care about corner cases
                of such.  Regardless,
I vote for any fixing that needs to happen because
                of pre-conditions
should be around changing pre-condition logic, even if
                it means completely
re-writing how pre-conditions works - don't change
                normal SIP or SDP.
(not that anyone is proposing it, I just can't tell
                form this thread)
                
                Re-Invites and
SDP offer/answer have so many interop issues in the wild
                even without pre-conditions,
that this whole thread scares me. :(
                
                -hadriel
                
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