Re: [vwrap] Follow-up from "What's *not* in VWRAP" presentation
Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com> Wed, 21 April 2010 01:50 UTC
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:05:03 -0700
From: Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com>
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To: Joshua Bell <josh@lindenlab.com>
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Cc: vwrap@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [vwrap] Follow-up from "What's *not* in VWRAP" presentation
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Joshua Bell wrote: > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Dzonatas Sol <dzonatas@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think what was proposed by "What's *not* in VWRAP" is to establish a >> default capability-to-scheme map, which would vwrap implementation to >> proceed without full flexibility of other possible schemes per capability. >> > > Jeepers, I hope not! > > In a nutshell, the presentation said: > Thanks for the clarification. I was a bit confused. (As I missed to type "which would allow a vwrap impl...", my bad.) > * Maybe, if they do need to be standardized, the minimum necessary for > interop might be e.g. as URLs pointing at human-readable Web pages - > e.g. when connecting to a world you could be given a mapping of > {'search': 'http://search.thisvirtualworld.org', 'map': > 'http://map.thisvirtualworld.org' } or some such. I dunno. > This is the basic idea behind ihave/sendme. I think others were concerned about extensibility on this idea when they heard "minimum," and I think that concern confused me a bit with their reaction. If I didn't apply the use-case of 2 separate programs on the client end (as with SNOW-375) that talked to a single server then I probably would worry more about extensibility then the 'minimum.' Between a single client program and a single server there are many assumptions that can be made, and those assumptions can include extensibility (which was demanded). With two programs on the client side, one might be 'extensible' and the other might not be. My concern centered on what would need to be the greatest set or the least common capabilities in such use-case. One program can handle the inventory while the other can handle the scene, for example. Right now, SNOW-375 expects a single peer, and that peer has an option to message with other peer programs, so there could be even more programs, like another for the world map, etc. A peer program may want to tell the viewer that a capability is actually a plugin to the viewer rather than being routed to through SNOW-375. That plugin then may message the peer directly rather than go through SNOW-375 (being routed through the viewer). I know this possibility has been talked about, yet I haven't seen other potential implementations mentioned yet in order to show there was significant consider of "minimums." Where I am at today with SNOW-375 has this potential with its flexibility of being peer-agnostic. I think in this use-case, the web-page you idealize above is/could-be actually handled by the peer program(s). > * So... don't assume XYZ will be done the same way that LLLP does it, > or that XYZ even needs to be in VWRAP > Currently, the peer program(s) just route everything through the viewer to figure out which path is needed between capabilities and LLLP. > * But if you believe that XYZ *is* necessary to specify for interop > and should be part of VWRAP, then the onus is on you to advocate for > it by writing specifications and providing implementations! > > There was also an aside in the presentation that pointed out that > VWRAP will require transport(s) with a variety of characteristics > (reliable/RESTful, reliable/streaming, unrealiable/streaming) and that > investigation needs to be done, as is called out in the WG charter. > There is an obvious (and actually needed) potential to not route everything through the viewer either for performance reasons or just because the scene renderer really doesn't need to process unrelated scene information. I understand this was some of the initial motive on the server side, so that a sim doesn't have to process everything unrelated to its scene, yet it can let it's peer programs do the work by capabilities (with a more direct connection to the viewer). I think a part of the design and implementation that founded vwrap has relied on a many-to-one relationship with lldp/capabilities-to-viewer, respectively. Now the "minimum" requires a more many-to-many relationship, where the server needs to know the capabilities of the client-peer programs, like how the viewer needed to know the capabilities of the server-peer programs. As I listened to the general conversation, others seemed to understand the modularity, yet some thought that any mention of many-to-many/server-to-client relationships meant support of a specific UI or for vwrap to support a specific UI, yet we know vwrap is about what needed to get that information to-and-from the specific UI, and it is not about the UI itself. (We, likewise, wouldn't want to say that a working implementation of vwrap on a certain sim isn't actually about the sim itself.) One of the needed performances is movement-input and related animated feedback. The performance I have noticed so far requires an optimal route for this particular dance, which means a specific capability and scheme. Reliable/RESTful is optimal enough for this basic set, yet as it is currently being routed through the scene renderer it has the potential to delay noticeably. In another example, mouse-events/look-at-xyz would be overkill for a RESTful messages and would need more of a unreliable stream to preform smoothly. It could route the stream through the viewer with a udp scheme/capability, yet it would be more wise to have the viewer just tell the peer program to route the peer's mouse-event/look-at-xyz stream more directly to the sim/server. Of course, another possibility is to have the scene renderer route everything as a peer through a main client program (that handles mouse-events) rather then the other way around. Either way, the main client program acts a proxy to the rest of the peer programs and/or plugins under the many-to-many "minimum." In short, the proxy may just want to tell the peers to "do-it-yourself" and pass them the uri to do just that.
- [vwrap] Follow-up from "What's *not* in VWRAP" pr… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [vwrap] Follow-up from "What's *not* in VWRAP… Joshua Bell
- Re: [vwrap] Follow-up from "What's *not* in VWRAP… Dzonatas Sol