RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar

["Brian Rosen" <br at brianrosen.net>]

Let's go over this slowly, because I'm confused.  Of course, that happens
often enough but...

If a sidebar is public, what does that mean?  Anyone can determine if
anyone else is in a sidebar, and with whom?  Can you cite something like
it?  That seems very unlikely to me, but I suppose.

Let's say it is allowed to be a policy issue.  If there is a policy
mechanism that allows such a thing, why would a whisper be different?  That
is, why would you not allow a policy decision on whisper if you allow a
policy decision on a sidebar?

Clearly, a whisper is "explicitly formed", right?  What could it possibly
mean to not be explicitly formed?

Now then there is the "clear communications context".  What does that mean?
That it has a URI?

Let's ask, why you want a URI for a sidebar?  The one thing that has been
mentioned is so you can INVITE a participant to a sidebar who is not in the
main conference.  I suppose that wouldn't make sense for a whisper, but are
there any other reasons for a URI?  Is there actual harm in having a URI for
whisper?  Are there advantages?  Is there anything else you think is part of
a "clear communications context" that applies?

A "one shot IM" is an interesting analogy.  Do you not really mean "Push to
Talk"?  Implementers of PTT have discovered that they actually do need a
"clear communications context" for such things, primarily so that resources
are reserved for when they are needed.  Would that not apply to a whisper?

Do you think a whisper is always "Push to Talk"?  Is it worth creating a
special mechanism for that, as opposed to creating whatever "context" a
sidebar has and maintaining it until it explicitly closed down?

Brain

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Orit Levin
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:53 PM
> To: xcon at ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> 
> I completely agree with Markus on each of his points.
> I think we should capture this in the xcon framework.
> 
> Orit.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Markus.Isomaki at nokia.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:10 PM
> > To: Miguel.An.Garcia at nokia.com; br at brianrosen.net
> > Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I think whether sidebars are public or restricted should be
> > determined in the conference policy.
> >
> > Whispers in general are private, although it might be useful
> > to have the policy to include a privilege to see a whisper
> > e.g. for a moderator. But this might be just feature creep.
> >
> > Technically I think sidebars and whispers are very different.
> > Sidebars should be explicitly formed and have a clear
> > communication context, while whispering should be always
> > possible and "stateless". The analogy would be the comparison
> > between delivery of one-shot IMs vs. establishment and
> > communication within a messaging session.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org
> > [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> > > ext Miguel Garcia
> > > Sent: 15 November, 2004 15:56
> > > To: Brian Rosen
> > > Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, this is an important subject, because I recently commented (in
> > > SIPPING) that the conference event package should not show
> > > participants that are whispering to other participants, due
> > to privacy
> > > reasons.
> > >
> > > Now you mention that sidebars are also private, something I
> > thought it
> > > wasn't the case. So, if sidebars are also private by nature, they
> > > shouldn't be visible in the conference event package either.
> > >
> > > I still think sidebars are public. Participants can freely join a
> > > sidebar, providing they know how to do it.
> > >
> > > - Miguel
> > >
> > > Brian Rosen wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think both sidebars and whispers are private.  Only the
> > > people in them
> > > > know that they are there.
> > > >
> > > > Brian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: Miguel Garcia [mailto:Miguel.An.Garcia at nokia.com]
> > > >>Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:26 AM
> > > >>To: Brian Rosen
> > > >>Cc: 'Eric Burger'; xcon at ietf.org
> > > >>Subject: Re: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> > > >>
> > > >>Brian Rosen wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>I claim that the ONLY difference between a classic sidebar
> > > and a whisper
> > > >>
> > > >>is
> > > >>
> > > >>>that the Coach has a full duplex connection to the
> > > sidebar, while the
> > > >>
> > > >>Agent
> > > >>
> > > >>>only has a half duplex connection.  The Mark is not in the
> > > sidebar at
> > > >>
> > > >>all.
> > > >>
> > > >>>As with any sidebar, everyone hears the "main mix".
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>Another difference is that whispers are typically private
> > in nature,
> > > >>whereas sidebars are public. If I am whispering to Brian, I
> > > don't think
> > > >>the rest of the conference would like to know that I am actually
> > > >>whispering to Brian. If I want to make this information
> > > public, I would
> > > >>use a sidebar.
> > > >>
> > > >>- Miguel
> > > >>
> > > >>--
> > > >>Miguel A. Garcia           tel:+358-50-4804586
> > > >>Nokia Research Center      Helsinki, Finland
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Miguel A. Garcia           tel:+358-50-4804586
> > > Nokia Research Center      Helsinki, Finland
> > >
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> >
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> 
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