RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar

["Brian Rosen" <br at brianrosen.net>]

One more little note on this.

We aren't really talking about a user interface.  We are talking about a
protocol.  If we can simplify the protocol by having one mechanism instead
of two, that's a good thing even if the user thinks whispers and sidebars
are completely different.  If there really are differences that matter in
the protocol, then having two mechanisms might make sense.  My push back is
not that I think the mental model a user has is different, but that the
protocol is simpler if we treat them the same.  You implement them at the
mixer the same (half duplex vs full duplex differences not withstanding).

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Brian Rosen
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:37 PM
> To: 'Orit Levin'; Markus.Isomaki at nokia.com; xcon at ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> 
> Let's go over this slowly, because I'm confused.  Of course, that happens
> often enough but...
> 
> If a sidebar is public, what does that mean?  Anyone can determine if
> anyone else is in a sidebar, and with whom?  Can you cite something like
> it?  That seems very unlikely to me, but I suppose.
> 
> Let's say it is allowed to be a policy issue.  If there is a policy
> mechanism that allows such a thing, why would a whisper be different?
> That
> is, why would you not allow a policy decision on whisper if you allow a
> policy decision on a sidebar?
> 
> Clearly, a whisper is "explicitly formed", right?  What could it possibly
> mean to not be explicitly formed?
> 
> Now then there is the "clear communications context".  What does that
> mean?
> That it has a URI?
> 
> Let's ask, why you want a URI for a sidebar?  The one thing that has been
> mentioned is so you can INVITE a participant to a sidebar who is not in
> the
> main conference.  I suppose that wouldn't make sense for a whisper, but
> are
> there any other reasons for a URI?  Is there actual harm in having a URI
> for
> whisper?  Are there advantages?  Is there anything else you think is part
> of
> a "clear communications context" that applies?
> 
> A "one shot IM" is an interesting analogy.  Do you not really mean "Push
> to
> Talk"?  Implementers of PTT have discovered that they actually do need a
> "clear communications context" for such things, primarily so that
> resources
> are reserved for when they are needed.  Would that not apply to a whisper?
> 
> Do you think a whisper is always "Push to Talk"?  Is it worth creating a
> special mechanism for that, as opposed to creating whatever "context" a
> sidebar has and maintaining it until it explicitly closed down?
> 
> Brain
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Orit Levin
> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:53 PM
> > To: xcon at ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> >
> > I completely agree with Markus on each of his points.
> > I think we should capture this in the xcon framework.
> >
> > Orit.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Markus.Isomaki at nokia.com
> > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:10 PM
> > > To: Miguel.An.Garcia at nokia.com; br at brianrosen.net
> > > Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I think whether sidebars are public or restricted should be
> > > determined in the conference policy.
> > >
> > > Whispers in general are private, although it might be useful
> > > to have the policy to include a privilege to see a whisper
> > > e.g. for a moderator. But this might be just feature creep.
> > >
> > > Technically I think sidebars and whispers are very different.
> > > Sidebars should be explicitly formed and have a clear
> > > communication context, while whispering should be always
> > > possible and "stateless". The analogy would be the comparison
> > > between delivery of one-shot IMs vs. establishment and
> > > communication within a messaging session.
> > >
> > > Markus
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xcon-bounces at ietf.org
> > > [mailto:xcon-bounces at ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> > > > ext Miguel Garcia
> > > > Sent: 15 November, 2004 15:56
> > > > To: Brian Rosen
> > > > Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, this is an important subject, because I recently commented (in
> > > > SIPPING) that the conference event package should not show
> > > > participants that are whispering to other participants, due
> > > to privacy
> > > > reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Now you mention that sidebars are also private, something I
> > > thought it
> > > > wasn't the case. So, if sidebars are also private by nature, they
> > > > shouldn't be visible in the conference event package either.
> > > >
> > > > I still think sidebars are public. Participants can freely join a
> > > > sidebar, providing they know how to do it.
> > > >
> > > > - Miguel
> > > >
> > > > Brian Rosen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think both sidebars and whispers are private.  Only the
> > > > people in them
> > > > > know that they are there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > > >>From: Miguel Garcia [mailto:Miguel.An.Garcia at nokia.com]
> > > > >>Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:26 AM
> > > > >>To: Brian Rosen
> > > > >>Cc: 'Eric Burger'; xcon at ietf.org
> > > > >>Subject: Re: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Brian Rosen wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I claim that the ONLY difference between a classic sidebar
> > > > and a whisper
> > > > >>
> > > > >>is
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>that the Coach has a full duplex connection to the
> > > > sidebar, while the
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Agent
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>only has a half duplex connection.  The Mark is not in the
> > > > sidebar at
> > > > >>
> > > > >>all.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>As with any sidebar, everyone hears the "main mix".
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Another difference is that whispers are typically private
> > > in nature,
> > > > >>whereas sidebars are public. If I am whispering to Brian, I
> > > > don't think
> > > > >>the rest of the conference would like to know that I am actually
> > > > >>whispering to Brian. If I want to make this information
> > > > public, I would
> > > > >>use a sidebar.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>- Miguel
> > > > >>
> > > > >>--
> > > > >>Miguel A. Garcia           tel:+358-50-4804586
> > > > >>Nokia Research Center      Helsinki, Finland
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Miguel A. Garcia           tel:+358-50-4804586
> > > > Nokia Research Center      Helsinki, Finland
> > > >
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> 
> 
> 
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