Re: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar

[Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat at cisco.com>]

Brian Rosen wrote:
> I like it.  So, the UI starts by assuming one, and learns if it needs to
> switch to the other.  Could work.  

Maybe. There are potential problems ensuring that you get to the right 
destination when switching. But if you start out using MESSAGE, then you 
already have that problem from one message to the next - switching to an 
INVITE w/MSRP doesn't make that worse.

> I'm not clear how this applies to audio or video. 

Its certainly clearer with IM. Maybe it can't be pushed any further than 
that.

> I get a "push to talk",
> but unless you lock the push button down, it really seems to be two UI
> functions. 

If you are comparing PTT to regular audio I agree. A fairer comparison 
might be a PTT UI implemented as an audio clip in a MESSAGE vs 
implemented as an audio media stream with floor control.

> Now, that is really up to the UI designer and not subject to
> standardization.  The standardization question is whether you want to define
> a no-state talkspurt-is-coming-now-send-it-where-it-needs-to-go equivalent
> to MESSAGE. 

"Equivalent to MESSAGE"? MESSAGE is fully capable of this now, subject 
only to message size limitations. Those don't apply if you use a flow 
controlled connection path. The question is whether you want to use it.

> You could do this with SIP, or you could do it with some media
> control function.  What are you suggesting?

I'm only suggesting that this is a similar problem, at least wrt IM.

In the case of IM, while we aren't going to standardize the UI, I think 
we are going to have to come up with some kind of best practice 
recommendation, or use cases, to ensure that we have interoperation 
among implementations that otherwise make incompatible choices about 
which technique to use in a given case.

In your case, I get the impression that the people who are arguing that 
whisper is special have some particular use cases in mind, where to them 
the use of page mode IM will sometimes be desired.

I think you may need to get down to specific use cases, and how they are 
implemented, to get everyone on the same page.

> I like the general tone of this, because I've always been unhappy with
> conferencing having to deal with MESSAGE differently than all other media.
> I'd like to either find an equivalent for other media, or just not use it
> for conferencing.

I wish MESSAGE had never been created.

	Paul

> Brian
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat at cisco.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:40 AM
> > To: Brian Rosen
> > Cc: Markus.Isomaki at nokia.com; oritl at microsoft.com; xcon at ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [XCON] Whisper vs. Sidebar
> >
> > Trimmed the discussion. Comment at end.
> >
> > 	Paul
> >
> > Brian Rosen wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still pretty confused about this.
> > >
> > > Somehow, you think a whisper is a very transient thing.  That's not my
> > > experience.  Usually, the coach opens a whisper function and coaches
> > > the agent throughout the transaction.  It's not a push to talk, it
> > > really is more stateful.
> > >
> > > Of course, many sidebars are one shot side comments from one participant
> > > to another.
> > >
> > > The thing is, you don't know the user's intent; you don't know if they
> > > intend to do a one shot, or intend to leave the channel open, unless
> > > you give them two UI functions.  Since that would seem to be equally
> > > applicable to whispers and sidebars,
> >
> > This isn't unique to conferencing. We are going to have exactly the same
> > problem in trying to decide between session mode and page mode for e2e
> > IM. Do you want two distinct UIs for the two? Or do you want to have one
> > UI that makes a decision on which to use?
> >
> > I think it will probably become a requirement for a good IM UI to make
> > the decision. I think this will be the case because page mode will
> > probably continue to be abused when session mode is more appropriate, so
> >  even if the UI would prefer to use session mode for a conversation, it
> > will have to be capable of using page mode if that is all the other
> > party is willing to do.
> >
> > 	Paul


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