Re: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model

[spromano at unina.it]

Hi Oscar,

> IMO that's covered using 'cascaded-focus'. The definition of   
> 'cascaded-focus' in RFC4575 states:
>
> "This element contains a conference URI (different from the main   
> conference URI) for users that are connected to the main conference   
> as a result of focus cascading.

Though cascading might be implemented through cloning, I don't see a  
direct link between the "parent/child" relationship and the "main  
focus/cascaded focus" one.

> > So, with the 'sidebars-by-ref' you can browse from the parent to the
> child and with 'cascaded-focus' from the child to the parent.

As above: a sidebar can be obtained through cloning, but not all  
cloned objects have to be sidebars. Furthermore, sidebars and cascaded  
foci do represent different things. Let me expand a bit on this...With  
the current data model, with sidebars-by-ref you can browse from the  
main conference to the sidebars; what is missing is, inside a certain  
sidebar, a means to identify the main conference it belongs to. If I  
understand correctly, what you are proposing is to use the  
'cascaded-focus' element in the sidebar conference object to identify  
the main conference from which the sidebar was stemmed.

I think we should go the easy way, i.e. let semantics be represented  
in the data model, without forcing any specific conceptual  
association. Stated in simple terms:

i) do we need to express a (general) parent/child relationship? If so,  
let's make it explicit in the data model;

ii) do we need to know whether a specified conf object is a sidebar of  
a different one? If so, let's make it explicit in the data model.

I would like to gather other folks'opinions on the subject.

Cheers,

Simon


> Oscar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spromano at unina.it [mailto:spromano at unina.it]
> Sent: 2. helmikuuta 2009 11:11
> To: Oscar Novo
> Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model
>
> Hi Oscar,
>
> what I was suggesting is to add some means to detect whether a   
> certain conference is a child of a parent conference; similarly,   
> with sidebars, I would like to know if a certain conference object   
> actually represents a sidebar of another conference. The two   
> mechanisms you mention ('cascaded-focus' and 'sidebars-by-ref')   
> allow you to "browse"
> conference objects in exactly the opposite direction. What is your   
> feeling about that?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Simon
>
> Quoting Oscar Novo <oscar.novo at ericsson.com>:
>
> > Hi Simon,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.
> > Regarding the new attributes you proposed. I might be wrong but I
> > think the father/son relationship is already covered with the
> > 'cascaded-focus' element and the conference/sidebar relationship is
> > covered with the 'sidebars-by-ref'. What do you think about that?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Oscar
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: spromano at unina.it [mailto:spromano at unina.it]
> > Sent: 30. tammikuuta 2009 20:16
> > To: Oscar Novo
> > Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model
> >
> > Hi Oscar,
> >
> > sorry for the late reply. IMHO, we might need in the data model:
> >
> > 1. information about the father/son relationship. This might be an
> > attribute, e.g.:
> >
> > <xs:attribute name="fatherEntity" type="xs:anyURI" use="optional"/>
> >
> > 2. information about the conference/sidebar relationship, e.g.:
> >
> > <xs:attribute name="sidebarOf" type="xs:anyURI" use="optional"/>.
> >
> > As to the "parent enforceable" relationship, I would leave it
> > outside of the data model.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> > Quoting Oscar Novo <oscar.novo at ericsson.com>:
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > In IETF-73 has been a proposal to expand the data model to support
> > > the cloning method defined in the framework. At the moment, the data
> > > model supports the cloning method though the 'cascaded-focus' element
> > > which contains a 'parent' conference URI but it might be needed to
> > > add few more elements to be align with CCMP.
> > >
> > > Some elements that could be added are:
> > >
> > > - An element that contains all the 'non-independent' children
> > > conferences
> > > - A policy attribute/element that indicates the "parent enforceable"
> > > of every element. However, it would make more sense to add it in a
> > > draft that discusses conference policies.
> > >
> > > It would be nice to know the opinion of the WG whether we want to
> > > support entirely this property or not.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Oscar
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >                              _\\|//_
> >                              ( O-O )
> >     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                      Simon Pietro Romano
> >                Universita' di Napoli Federico II
> >                   Computer Science Department
> >          Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
> >                  e-mail: spromano at unina.it
> >
> >      <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
> >     idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
> >                           oooO
> >     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >                            \ (    (   )
> >                             \_)    ) /
> >                                   (_/
>
>
>
> --
>                              _\\|//_
>                              ( O-O )
>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                      Simon Pietro Romano
>                Universita' di Napoli Federico II
>                   Computer Science Department
>          Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
>                  e-mail: spromano at unina.it
>
>      <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
>     idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
>                           oooO
>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                            \ (    (   )
>                             \_)    ) /
>                                   (_/



--
                            _\\|//_
                            ( O-O )
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Simon Pietro Romano
              Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                 Computer Science Department
        Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                e-mail: spromano at unina.it

    <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
   idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                         oooO
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          \ (    (   )
                           \_)    ) /
                                 (_/