Re: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model

["Oscar Novo" <oscar.novo at ericsson.com>]

Hi Simon,

I see your point. We could define the sidebar relationship in the data model instead of using the cascaded-focus concept for that. Regarding your question number one, it would be interesting to know other WG's opinions too.

Regards,

Oscar 

-----Original Message-----
From: spromano at unina.it [mailto:spromano at unina.it] 
Sent: 5. helmikuuta 2009 17:33
To: Oscar Novo
Cc: xcon at ietf.org
Subject: RE: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model

Hi Oscar,

> IMO that's covered using 'cascaded-focus'. The definition of   
> 'cascaded-focus' in RFC4575 states:
>
> "This element contains a conference URI (different from the main   
> conference URI) for users that are connected to the main conference   
> as a result of focus cascading.

Though cascading might be implemented through cloning, I don't see a direct link between the "parent/child" relationship and the "main focus/cascaded focus" one.

>> So, with the 'sidebars-by-ref' you can browse from the parent to the
> child and with 'cascaded-focus' from the child to the parent.

As above: a sidebar can be obtained through cloning, but not all cloned objects have to be sidebars. Furthermore, sidebars and cascaded foci do represent different things. Let me expand a bit on this...With the current data model, with sidebars-by-ref you can browse from the main conference to the sidebars; what is missing is, inside a certain sidebar, a means to identify the main conference it belongs to. If I understand correctly, what you are proposing is to use the 'cascaded-focus' element in the sidebar conference object to identify the main conference from which the sidebar was stemmed.

I think we should go the easy way, i.e. let semantics be represented in the data model, without forcing any specific conceptual association. Stated in simple terms:

i) do we need to express a (general) parent/child relationship? If so, let's make it explicit in the data model;

ii) do we need to know whether a specified conf object is a sidebar of a different one? If so, let's make it explicit in the data model.

I would like to gather other folks'opinions on the subject.

Cheers,

Simon


>
> Oscar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spromano at unina.it [mailto:spromano at unina.it]
> Sent: 2. helmikuuta 2009 11:11
> To: Oscar Novo
> Cc: xcon at ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model
>
> Hi Oscar,
>
> what I was suggesting is to add some means to detect whether a   
> certain conference is a child of a parent conference; similarly,   
> with sidebars, I would like to know if a certain conference object   
> actually represents a sidebar of another conference. The two   
> mechanisms you mention ('cascaded-focus' and 'sidebars-by-ref')   
> allow you to "browse"
> conference objects in exactly the opposite direction. What is your   
> feeling about that?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Simon
>
> Quoting Oscar Novo <oscar.novo at ericsson.com>:
>
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply.
>> Regarding the new attributes you proposed. I might be wrong but I 
>> think the father/son relationship is already covered with the 
>> 'cascaded-focus' element and the conference/sidebar relationship is 
>> covered with the 'sidebars-by-ref'. What do you think about that?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Oscar
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spromano at unina.it [mailto:spromano at unina.it]
>> Sent: 30. tammikuuta 2009 20:16
>> To: Oscar Novo
>> Cc: xcon at ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [XCON] Cloning: Additional data in the data model
>>
>> Hi Oscar,
>>
>> sorry for the late reply. IMHO, we might need in the data model:
>>
>> 1. information about the father/son relationship. This might be an 
>> attribute, e.g.:
>>
>> <xs:attribute name="fatherEntity" type="xs:anyURI" use="optional"/>
>>
>> 2. information about the conference/sidebar relationship, e.g.:
>>
>> <xs:attribute name="sidebarOf" type="xs:anyURI" use="optional"/>.
>>
>> As to the "parent enforceable" relationship, I would leave it outside 
>> of the data model.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> Quoting Oscar Novo <oscar.novo at ericsson.com>:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> In IETF-73 has been a proposal to expand the data model to support 
>>> the cloning method defined in the framework. At the moment, the data 
>>> model supports the cloning method though the 'cascaded-focus' 
>>> element which contains a 'parent' conference URI but it might be 
>>> needed to add few more elements to be align with CCMP.
>>>
>>> Some elements that could be added are:
>>>
>>> - An element that contains all the 'non-independent' children 
>>> conferences
>>> - A policy attribute/element that indicates the "parent enforceable"
>>> of every element. However, it would make more sense to add it in a 
>>> draft that discusses conference policies.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to know the opinion of the WG whether we want to 
>>> support entirely this property or not.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Oscar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>                              _\\|//_
>>                              ( O-O )
>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>                      Simon Pietro Romano
>>                Universita' di Napoli Federico II
>>                   Computer Science Department
>>          Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
>>                  e-mail: spromano at unina.it
>>
>>      <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
>>     idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
>>                           oooO
>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>                            \ (    (   )
>>                             \_)    ) /
>>                                   (_/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>                              _\\|//_
>                              ( O-O )
>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                      Simon Pietro Romano
>                Universita' di Napoli Federico II
>                   Computer Science Department
>          Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
>                  e-mail: spromano at unina.it
>
>      <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
>     idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
>                           oooO
>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                            \ (    (   )
>                             \_)    ) /
>                                   (_/
>
>



-- 
                             _\\|//_
                             ( O-O )
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     Simon Pietro Romano
               Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                  Computer Science Department
         Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                 e-mail: spromano at unina.it

     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                          oooO
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                           \ (    (   )
                            \_)    ) /
                                  (_/