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Re: [xmpp] draft-hildebrand-dna-00



As I understand it, the idea behind draft-hildebrand-dna-00 is that DNA
would be extensible, so that the parties could support a number of
different proof types. Attribute certificates (ACs) would be one proof
type, but not the only one. I agree that ACs are a bit experimental,
because they have never been widely deployed (there are implementations
in code, but few deployments that I know of). Other possible DNA proof
types might include a signed SRV record (DNSSEC), a special file
uploaded to the SSL- or TLS-protected document root for the domain in
question, and others we haven't considered yet. Suggestions are welcome.

On 11/21/09 8:57 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> I share these concerns.  Attribute certificates are very rarely
> implemented, and as a result if DNA is required for server-server this
> is likely to break interoperability with many existing server
> implementations.
> 
> Given the lack of implementation experience, any DNA documents should be
> Experimental at best.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Sean Turner <turners at ieca.com
> <mailto:turners at ieca.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Dirk Balfanz wrote:
> 
>         Hi guys,
>         I wanted to give some feedback on draft-hildebrand-dna-00. I
>         just joined the mailing list, so I probably missed a bunch of
>         the discussion regarding this topic. I'm new to XMPP, but have
>         been helping out the Wave folks at Google with some crypto/PKI bits.
> 
> 
>     The discussion on the list has actually been pretty minimal.
>     Technically, it's not even a working group document.
> 
> 
>         My biggest question is why you're tangling up this spec with
>         Attribute Certificates. I've never seen an RFC 3281-style AC in
>         the wild, and hadn't heard of draft-ietf-pkix-3281update until I
>         read this spec. Is 3281update real? Are there parsers out there
>         that understand this stuff? It makes sense to stand on the
>         shoulders, so to speak, of other specs if there is wide-spread
>         adoption out there and code that can process these things, but
>         you don't want to depend on specs that nobody is using - it just
>         complicates things.
> 
> 
>     I'm not sure what you mean by real?  That ID fixes some errata and
>     some minor bugs, so it's not a big update.  It's in the RFC editor's
>     queue. The document it was pinned on just got approved.  It ought to
>     be published soon.
> 
>     There are some code bits from bouncy castle, though I have to admit
>     I haven't used them.  I'm sure there are others.
> 
> 
>         Ok, now for more detailed, turn-by-turn comments:
> 
>         - it says "The issuer's certificate MUST NOT have a
>         basicConstraints extension with the cA BOOLEAN set to TRUE." Why?
> 
> 
>     The statement is for compliance with RFC 3281/3281bis section 4.5.
>      It says: "The AC issuer's PKC MUST conform to [PKIXPROF], and the
>     keyUsage extension in the PKC MUST NOT explicitly indicate that the
>     AC issuer's public key cannot be used to validate a digital
>     signature.  In order to avoid confusion regarding serial numbers and
>     revocations, an AC issuer MUST NOT also be a PKC Issuer.  That is,
>     an AC issuer cannot be a CA as well.  So, the AC issuer's PKC MUST
>     NOT have a basicConstraints extension with the cA BOOLEAN set to TRUE."
> 
> 
>         - The holder field MUST be the baseCertificateID. This seems to
>         mean that it points to a issuer/serial number in some other PKC.
>         Hows does the validating entity get hold of that PKC? How did
>         the issuer of the AC know what to put there?
> 
> 
>     The AC issuer will include their name in the issuer field (taken
>     from their PKC's subject field) and the issuer's serial # (taken
>     from their PKC's serial number field).  Then the path for the AC
>     would be included along with the AC (see Section 5.5).  I proposed a
>     "certs-only" message.  It would include one attribute certificate
>     and any public key certificates necessary to validate them.
>      "certs-only" message have been around a while and are most recently
>     documented in draft-ietf-smime-3851bis-11.
> 
> 
>         - http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pkix-3281update-05.txt says
>          "Conforming implementations MUST NOT use the x400Address,
>         ediPartyName, or registeredID options [wherever the spec asks
>         for a GeneralName]"  Your spec says to use registeredId, so you
>         seem to be advocating a non-3281update-compliant AC.
> 
> 
>     That's my bad.  We wouldn't want to be non-compliant.  Joe suggested
>     just using OIDs for id-xmpp and another one for
>     id-xmpp-client/id-xmpp-server so I stuck it in there.  If we can't
>     use registerdID, then we need to pick another one or define an
>     other-name. I guess I lean towards a new other-name.  Thoughts?
> 
> 
>         - For encoding the AC, issuer cert and potential intermediate
>         certs, you're depending on yet another RFC
>         (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-smime-3851bis-11) for
>         encoding the cert chain, which seems like overkill. Why not just
>         say that proof-type attribute-cert has sub-elements, like  
>         <proof xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:dna'
>                  from='asserted.tld'
>                  type='urn:ietf:params:dna:proof:attribute-cert'>
>             <ac>
>               (base64 of AC)
>             </ac>
>             <pkc>
>               (base64 of issuer PKC)
>             </pkc>
>             <pkc>
>               (base64 of intermediate PKC that issued issuer PKC)
>             </pkc>
>           </proof>
> 
> 
>     We could do that, but it's not like what we picked is new.
>      certs-only has been around since before '99 (see RFC 2633).  I
>     guess I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another.  If
>     we're not going to use PKCS#7 should we use <X509Certificate> from
>     XMLDSig?
> 
> 
>         What do you guys think? You probably discussed all these things
>         to death and i'm just late to the party...
> 
> 
>     Cheers,
>     spt
> 
>         Dirk.
> 

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