Last Modified: 2003-06-10
Done | First I-D of problem statement issued | |
Done | Problem statement reviewed at the IESG Plenary | |
Done | First I-D of draft document describing the process by which the ietf will change its processes issued | |
May 03 | Problem statement submitted for IESG review | |
Jul 03 | Draft document describing the process by which the ietf will change its processes reviewed at the IESG Plenary | |
Aug 03 | Draft document describing the process by which the ietf will change its processes submitted for IESG review | |
Oct 03 | Re-charter or close working group |
Problem Statement Working Group Minutes, IETF 57 Reported by Spencer Dawkins, Bilel Jamoussi, and Melinda Shore The Problem Statement working group met for one 2.5-hour session in Vienna. The topics covered during the meeting were the two deliverables (problem description document and process document), and moving those towards closure. The intention is to release a new version of the problem description document after the IETF meeting and put that into WG last call. Problem Statement Document We went through open issues and tried to come to closure on them. The first open issue was the discussion of timeliness in section 2.1 of the draft. Several problems that were brought out included that we don't say whether we're talking about "timeliness" refers to working group milestones or to market needs (Margaret Wasserman). The issue is the time involved in moving from draft to proposed standard (Scott Bradner), and that dependencies between documents can hold things up even longer (Elwyn Davies). Harald Alvestrand said that section 2.3 of the draft captures the point well and suggested that we add the word "timeliness" to it. A hum from the working group showed agreement with Harald's point/suggestion. The next open issue was the appeals process. There are questions about both informal mechanisms for resolving processes as well as the formal ones (Margaret Wasserman). It was suggested that the barriers to entry on formal appeals include intimidation and that we need to find a balance between accessibility and providing barriers to frivolity (Dave Crocker). Dave also pointed out that we've never used the recall process and so we can't know if it's useful in practice, and that any changes we make should be based in experience. Brian Carpenter asked that we consider situations where the appeals process itself has failed, not where people were unwilling to use the process. Margaret suggested the introduction of a less formal problem resolution mechanism that could be the last step before a formal appeal, such as an ombudsman. Scott Bradner went back to the recall discussion and pointed out that the lack of recall attempts doesn't mean that there's never been a case where someone thought that an individual should have been recalled. Recalls would take time, so there's no incentive to start a recall within six months of a nomcom - this has been an issue at least twice. This issue needs further discussion on the WG mailing list. The next issue discussed was the size of protocol specifications. Joel Halpern said that he thought of it as a slightly different question - that we want to be able to solve smaller pieces and build from them rather than trying to boil the ocean. Charlie Perkins agreed and said that we need to allow a natural progression through publication of stable pieces and add as needed. Spencer Dawkins pointed out that we need both interface specifications and systems specifications, not just one or the other. Harald Alvestrand said that the issue here isn't about specifications that are too big, it's about complexity. Charlie Perkins added that we need to be able to review the documents, and smaller pieces are more manageable. Elwyn Davies asked that people contribute text if they feel that what is currently in the document is inadequate. The next question was whether or not it's a problem that we have Area Directors who are also working group chairs. Margaret Wasserman said that this was a tiny piece of a larger problem, which is that all of our leaders have multiple roles. This is not inherently a problem except in cases where there may be conflicting responsibilities, for example when an AD is a document editor in a working group in his/her own area and is consequently the chair's "boss." This can blow the appeals chain. Jim Seng said that this causes problems around getting consensus, as well. Dave Crocker said that intimidation comes back into play in this scenario, especially when the IETF has new participants. A hum was taken and there was agreement that section 2.6.6 actually covers this issue adequately. We moved on to discuss whether or not the scope of the IETF is a root cause of current problems. Scott Bradner disagreed that this was the right question to ask, and said that the ITU-T says that the lack of defined scope is the problem. Elwyn agreed and said that it's already covered in section 2.1. A hum indicated that those present felt that the scope question is currently covered sufficiently well in the document. The next question was whether or not there's a problem for non-native English speakers in how the IETF executes its work. Elwyn said that the document currently covers problems with our culture but not education about our culture. Margaret Wasserman said that she didn't think this was a root cause problem, but that the real issue here is whether or not we're successful at becoming a global organization. Raj Patel agreed. James Seng said that this isn't a big problem that prevents progress but it's a minor problem that the IETF has been hostile to ESL participants, especially with cultural differences. Dave Crocker said that he's starting to agree with Margaret about the what the real issue is, and that we should think about what cultural adjustments we're willing to make. John Loughney described differences in expectations of formality, levels of aggressiveness, and so on. Leslie Daigle's criterion was that if you wave a magic wand and the problem goes away, would we be more successful? She thinks our quality would improve. A hum indicated that we need more text on this issue. We then moved on to discuss whether or not our current document format is a problem. Margaret Wasserman asked if this was actually an RFC Editor problem, and Scott Bradner answered that the IETF problem is repeated discussions of the same issue. We took a hum and the sense of the room was that document format is not an issue. The next issue was that of complex problem resolution - how we resolve cross-organizational issues. Alastair Deering said that the IETF has a good working group structure but an opaque area structure and no idea where decisions are made. There needs to be a hierarchy of consensus-making. Working groups are too small for this purpose, experts are too split, and we consequently don't have a broad vision. Scott Bradner said that the issue we're talking about isn't complexity but that decisions can't stay made, which is a systemic issue. Charlie Perkins asked that we start documenting our decisions better. For example, has there ever been an RFC written on ASCII vs. something else? Harald's perspective from the IESG is that community-wide consensus is a big problem and paralyzes the IESG because they don't know what the community wants. Mike ??? said that the W3C decided that they would document their architecture as axiomatic principles, not open for discussion. It may be heavy-handed but right now the IETF process for discovering decisions that are no longer open for discussion stinks. Closing: Elwyn will propose document changes on the mailing list and try to get agreement on them, then fold them into the next release of the document which will be put into WG last call. Process Document This was our first opportunity to discuss the process document at a meeting. The first question was whether or not we're ready to tackle the near-term recommendations. Brian Carpenter suggested that many of these are actually secretariat issues, such as updating milestones. Dave Crocker said that it's been a year since Yokohama and there still haven't been changes. Harald went back to Brian's comment and said that the people who should be noticing that there's a problem with milestone updates are the chairs and ADs. The mechanical part isn't the problem. Margaret said that there are things we can be working on right away, for example posting pointers to appeals, providing a suggestion box, and so on. Joel Halpern said that his WG milestones are wrong because changing the charter is political and difficult, and there are a lot of issues about updating charters. Aaron Falk pointed out that there are a lot of uses for charters. It's a contract between the working group and the AD, not advertising for the WG. Joel asked that we not spend all of our energy on attacking near-term solutions. We need to work on fixing structural problems before the organization falls apart. Dave Crocker disagreed and said that the current processes work fine, just not often enough. Every time we've ever tried to tackle a big problem in a big way we've messed it up. Organizational change is not our area of expertise, so that would be even worse. Allison Mankin really liked the process document and COACH BOF. She wondered why we don't regard the WG chairs as a leadership cadre. Alastair Deering said that other standards bodies have disciplined themselves to stop trying to modify IETF protocols themselves but it's come at the cost of dependencies. For example, 3GPP has a list of 67 dependencies on IETF work for their current release. Avri asked whether we need a short-term WG on liaisons - there was no answer. Bob Hinden said that there are no perfect organizational structures and that we haven't changed ours in a very long time. It's time to change, and we should give WG chairs more responsibility. Ed Juscoviscious addressed the question of charters as contracts and suggested that WGs can't be accountable to dependencies because they don't have control over their own destinies. Scott Bradner said that the IETF has historically been a bottom-up organization. We trickle up, and the previous speakers have been talking about an issue where this isn't appropriate. We don't even rely on outputs of other WGs well. We can't deal with dependencies if there is no way to direct working groups to focus on certain strategic areas. Jonne Soinenen said that there are so many 3GPP dependencies on milestones that aren't met, and asked for reasonable and realistic milestones. Margaret asked that we get back on track to discussing the process document. Avri took a hum to see if those present felt that the overall direction of the document is correct. The hum was positive. She next asked if there are incorrect recommendations in the document, and the hum was negative. The next question was whether or not we need to define a process to identify a mission statement. Margaret Wasserman no longer thinks this is the right thing to do, that we could end up in an eternal rat-hole. It would be great to figure it out but we shouldn't gate anything on it and perhaps it shouldn't be done in a traditional working group. Brian Carpenter said that we do need to do some of it, that scope does matter. He asked that if we do do it, not to use a design team. John Klensin said that we're running the risk of generating process that becomes part of the problem. We need to cut it down and streamline it, and not rely on the IESG folowing detailed procedures. We should work through discussions, nomcom, or even recall petitions. Joel said that he thought those are great things to do but we can't do them in a working group and we have to socialize the results very widely. Scott Bradner said that these things aren't static and that writing them down is a huge mistake. A hum was taken on whether or not we need to define a process to develop a mission statement, and the room was evenly split. We also took a hum on splitting phase 1 and phase 2 as described in the 00 version of the process document, and that was evenly split as well. We next discussed the question of whether an organizational change to our leadership structure is required. Margaret said that it was important to make a process recommendation as part of the problem statement. We could give our leadership a mandate to solves these problems, or we could give it to somebody else. Graham Travers asked if we don't make a recommendation, what will we have done? Brian Carpenter restated the question to being one of organizational reform and leadership responsibility for reform. Joel Halpern said that we're going to need a fairly major change and that if we don't think out-of-the-box it's not going to happen. Margaret agreed and said that our lower-level problems need reorganization as a solution, and that if we don't give that mandate to someone we haven't done anything. Scott disagreed and that we haven't proven that we need to reorganize and we haven't proven that we don't. Our current process to accept change relies on the leadership. Leslie Daigle said that if we fail to make process recommendations we won't have done "nothing" - documenting existing problems is a significant step. If we don't fix them in a year, call nomcom. Charlie Perkins said that the composition of the organization may be okay but not the distribution of responsibility. For example, make the IAB responsible for enforcing architectural principles instead of the IESG. Getting away from adversarial relationships is important. We then moved to discussion three bullet items at once: 1) changing the standards track, 2) whether or not the short- term and long-term problems should be attacked in parallel, and 3) if a working group should be chartered to address long-term problems. Elwyn said that problems with our standards track are our most important problems. What we claim to do is not what we do, and since our Proposed Standards haven't been through the implementation and testing process they are paper specifications. Charlie Perkins said that we must change the standards-track process because it doesn't fulfill internal or external needs, that we should do things in parallel, and that a working group will take too long. He also said that he couldn't think of a better approach than a working group. Scott Bradner said that the standards process has shifted one stage to the left, and there's no energy to advance specifications beyond what used to be an internet draft level of sophistication and experience. Harald said that people design and working groups review, and therefore that we shouldn't use a working group to create process proposals. Raj Patel agreed, particularly on problems with working group timeliness. Do small things quickly and use design teams for more complex tasks. Alastair said that the IETF has become a laughingstock in other standards bodies. The ITU-T can go from wanting to do a BOF to publishing a recommendation in less than nine months. A hum was taken on moving forward. When asked whether solutions work should be started 1) when the problem statement is approved, 2) when the process document is approved, or 3) now, the hum was decidedly in favor of 3), now. |