ALTO IETF91 Minutes Thursday, November 13, 2014 1640-1910 Honolulu, HI (USA) Chair: Jan Seedorf (present), Vijay K. Gurbani (absent), Enrico Marocco (absent) Note taker: Wendy Roome Meetecho URL for archived video/audio recording: http://recordings.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/watch.jsp?recording=IETF91_ALTO&chapter=chapter_0 -- session starts late because of projector problems (temporary laptop from Meetecho team solved the problem, but took about 10-15 to fetch and get working) -- Jan presents agenda and points out that first presentations are grouped together and about a general direction the WG needs to decide on with respect to enhanced topology representations for applications -- Jon presents his slides on bigger picture on where ALTO should go with respect to topology / YANG / SUPA etc; Richard yang: agree that we need to look at the bigger picture; Jan as chair: indeed, the point is that the WG should look at the big picture first before jumping into particular/specific protocol solutions; Richard Yang: indeed it is an open question at what level of detail apps need topology information; Rick Taylor: topology information is also improtant for MANET environments; Jon: probably not enough energy/people in the room today to answer these general questions, we probably need to do this as a BoF to get more people involved in this discussion; Spencer: are we talking about a non-forming BoF to talk about topology? Jon: idea would be to get routing and apps folks together to form a common view on what topological data is useful -- Richard Yang presents on "ALTO / YANG models"; small clarification questions, but general discussion postponed after all topology related presenations are done -- Tina Tsou presents on SUPA charter; Jan: are you aiming at working group forming BoF soon? Tina: will have breakfast with ADs tomorrow, then we will see; -- Richard Yang presents on "ALTO Topology Extensions"; Jan: before we jump into concrete protocol solutions, let's take a step back and have a more general discussion on where the WG wants to go with topology extensions and what types of information applications actually want/need -- General discussion about the topology-related presentations and where the WG should go; Wendy Roome: maybe applications do not need so much topology information as we may think; Tina Tsou: from SUPA perspective the presented ALTO extensions are on a different level than what SUPA needs, this is more for end-user application, is higher than SUPA-level; Jan: is this more northbound? Tina: yes, you/ALTO are in "arctic" from the SUPA perspective; SUPA is for OMA, needs much more details than the ALTO extensions presented by Richard; Rick Taylor: let's not confuse the mechanisms and the data that is needed by apps; Giorgios Karagiannis: what kind of topology to you want to use in ALTO, is it routing topology? Richard Yang: currently we are not talking about routing topology; -- Richard yang: presentation on "ALTO Cost Calendar" can be dropped; presentation was dropped as the session ran late -- Uwe Rauschenbach presented ALTO in wireless networks. Basic problem being solved is whether ALTO can be used to figure out "what is the cost to access a server via a wireless cell?" or figure out the level of congestion in a wireless cell. He is seeking to include cell / access point information into the ALTO model. He thinks the primitive connection managers of today (that prefer WiFi over cellular data) will evolve into more capable managers in the future and work with the applications to work with the changing network topology. Example: opportunistic reaction to handover. Wanted to know whether there was interest in moving forward. Jan made a comment that ALTO should not be used for realtime congestion control in very dynamic networks. Jan further noted that we can present historical data for congestion control under the current charter, but not instantaneous congestion control. Rick Taylor resonated with Uwe's proposal since he (Rick) is doing this very thing. Other working groups are also looking at different views of this problem and Rick thinks that some aspects of this work may be done in ALTO. Someone else (name unknown) on the mic also liked this proposal. There is some overlap with SUPA, etc., but like proposal. Richard Yang likes the proposal as well. He notes that the PID concept is a partion, not a hierarchy. Wendy Roome noted that PIDs are upto the server and there can be ways to serve them up using differently typed addresses (so far, ALTO has only considered IPv4 and IPv6 addresses in PIDs). Jan summarized by saying that the WG appears to like this work and perhaps discussion can continue in mailing list and proposal be fine tuned as work continues. -- Wendy Roome presented work in incremental updates. This work is in charter. The approach Wendy presented designs a general framework for continuous and incremental updates for ANY ALTO resource. Jan confirmed that this work solves two problems: incremental updates and server-side notifications. Wendy affirms. Wendy goes through her proposal. Discussion: Rick Taylor supports the draft. Uwe wanted to know why a fixed transport was chosen? Wendy: Did not want the client to choose between multiple transports. Many questions arise if we do that. Best just used SSE and be done with it. Uwe wanted to know how we will live with broken proxies? Don't use them. Perhaps use a different port than 80. Jan wanted to get a sense on whether there were other proposals on the table or should we focus on this one and move the work ahead? Jan likes this approach (as an individual). Jan asked if we split server event notifications and incremental update? Something to think about and take offline. [ Wendy skipped her remaining two presentations and gave the floor to next presented. ] -- Lingli Deng presented work on extended endpoint properties in the context of privacy-preserving information mapping. A data model has been drafted and is included in the I-D. Lingli is looking for review and some input on next steps. Discussion was moved to the mailing list due to time constaints.