From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 2 11:35:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B67328C143; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:35:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA523A6BE0 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:45:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.460, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PasNB0EKCiec for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mplus1.messagingarchitects.com (bastille.messagingarchitects.com [216.94.112.120]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AE83A6AC8 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] lisad@messagingarchitects.com [74.95.2.169] by mplus1.messagingarchitects.com with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.4.debug; Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:45:14 -0500 X-MailFrom: lisa.dusseault@messagingarchitects.com Message-Id: From: Lisa Dusseault To: Lisa Dusseault's Chairs , Apps Discuss Subject: Lisa's Apps area Activity Report for Jan 2009 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:45:06 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mplus-Virus-Scanned: mplusversion: 2008.4.debug ; timestamp: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:45:15 -0500 engine: XCFAntiVirus1 Engine; version: 3819 (20090202)/1079 (20090126)/1085 (20090120)/1.009 (20070910) result: 0 ; ref: none; status: success; error: none engine: XCFAntiVirus2 Engine; version: 5.1.00/5513 result: 0 ; ref: none; status: success; error: none engine: XCFAntiVirus3 Engine; version: 5.07.0001 result: 0 ; ref: str=0001.0A010207.49873F35.01E8,ss=1,fgs=0; status: success; error: none X-Mplus-Spam-Scanned: mplusversion: 2008.4.debug ; timestamp: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:45:15 -0500 engine: XCFSPAM1 Engine ; version: Not Available ; level: 0 ref: 0-0-0-10667-c status: success ;error: none engine: XCFSPAM4 Engine ; version: 5.1.2/2009.01.31.21.50.55/2005.02.11.04.44.13/0/0/2007.01.28.16.09.00/2007.02.13.01.23.26/0/0/2009.01.22.21.42.10/2009.02.02.17.01.00/2009.02.02.02.40.00/2009.02.02.17.31.47/0/0/2009.01.21.21.18.19/; level: 1 ref: status: success ;error: none X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:35:48 -0800 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1941953758==" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --===============1941953758== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-61--257447018 --Apple-Mail-61--257447018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit News, Updates Quite a few BOFs getting requested for the next meeting, see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki for more details on each: - OAUTH - charter revised recently on list - YAM, BOF on advancing core email standards - MMOX, BOF on Massive Multiplayer Online Interactions - XMPP, revising base specs and doing some transport and security stuff - Interest in other HTTP topics: Cookies, Origin header -- not sure if there will be a BOF around this The BOF approval call is Feb 5 and scheduling of these BOFs will happen after that. Document Status and Progress Active documents, my action: Active documents, waiting on other: - draft-reschke-webdav-post (Exp): Cyrus Daboo is doing shepherd review and writeup - drat-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn (Exp): Waiting on revision from authors - draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop (PS): Waiting on authors to respond to GenArt review - draft-ietf-usefor-usepro (PS): Waiting for last WG issue to get resolved - draft-ietf-calsify-2446bis (PS): Waiting for a revision - draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis (PS): Waiting for a revision - draft-snell-atompub-bidi (PS): Waiting for a revision - draft-wilde-sms-uri (PS): Waiting for a revision Finished processing -- new in RFC Ed queue and new RFCs - draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata (PS): approved, announcement sent - draft-freed-sieve-ihave (PS): In RFC Ed queue - draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve (PS): In RFC Ed queue - draft-kucherawy-sender-auth-header (PS): In RFC Ed queue WG Status ALTO, HTTPBIS, IDNABIS and SIEVE are meeting in SF / IETF74 ALTO: mostly quiet CALSIFY: Working through open issues HTTPBIS: Interesting issues and great discussion on "Origin" header or other fix/replacement to "Referer" header IDNABIS: Great discussion on goals and tradeoffs e.g. simplicity and invariability of assignments SIEVE: Published several documents and pushing more through USEFOR: Prompted the WG last week to close their last one or two issues, to finish their last doc --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- Messaging Architects sponsors The Spamhaus Project. --Apple-Mail-61--257447018 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

News, = Updates
Quite a few BOFs getting requested for the next = meeting, see http://trac.tools.ietf.o= rg/bof/trac/wiki for more details on each:
 - OAUTH - = charter revised recently on list
 - YAM, BOF on advancing = core email standards
 - MMOX, BOF on Massive Multiplayer = Online Interactions
 - XMPP, revising base specs and = doing some transport and security stuff
 - Interest in = other HTTP topics: Cookies, Origin header -- not sure if there will be a = BOF around this

The BOF approval call is Feb 5 = and scheduling of these BOFs will happen after = that.


Document Status and = Progress
Active documents, my = action:

Active documents, waiting on = other:
 - draft-reschke-webdav-post (Exp): Cyrus Daboo is = doing shepherd review and writeup
 - = drat-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn (Exp): Waiting on revision from = authors
 - draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop (PS): Waiting on = authors to respond to GenArt review
 - = draft-ietf-usefor-usepro (PS): Waiting for last WG issue to get = resolved
 - draft-ietf-calsify-2446bis (PS): Waiting = for a revision
 - draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis = (PS): Waiting for a = revision
 - draft-snell-atompub-bidi (PS): Waiting = for a revision
 - draft-wilde-sms-uri (PS): Waiting = for a revision

Finished processing -- new in = RFC Ed queue and new = RFCs
 - draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata (PS): = approved, announcement = sent
 - draft-freed-sieve-ihave (PS): In RFC Ed = queue
 - draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve (PS): In RFC = Ed queue
 - draft-kucherawy-sender-auth-header (PS): = In RFC Ed queue

WG = Status

ALTO, HTTPBIS, = IDNABIS and SIEVE are meeting in SF / = IETF74

ALTO: mostly = quiet 
CALSIFY: Working through open = issues
HTTPBIS: Interesting issues and great discussion on = "Origin" header or other fix/replacement to "Referer" = header
IDNABIS: Great discussion on goals and tradeoffs = e.g. simplicity and invariability of assignments
SIEVE: = Published several documents and pushing more through
USEFOR: = Prompted the WG last week to close their last one or two issues, to = finish their last doc
= --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- Messaging Architects sponsors The Spamhaus Project. --Apple-Mail-61--257447018-- --===============1941953758== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --===============1941953758==-- From mnot@mnot.net Tue Feb 10 04:06:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D630C3A681C for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:06:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.800, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DIV2wSFYwavi for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CF73A67A7 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (unknown [209.131.62.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E131D0500 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:06:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6850CB07-0B31-41E1-B800-B861A2C82781@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham To: Apps Discuss Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-site-meta-01 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:06:51 +1100 References: <20090210120313.CD1B23A67F5@core3.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:06:50 -0000 FYI. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-site-meta-01.txt Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > Date: 10 February 2009 11:03:13 PM > To: mnot@mnot.net > Cc: eran@hueniverse.com > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-site-meta-01 > > > A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-site-meta-01.txt has been > successfuly submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Filename: draft-nottingham-site-meta > Revision: 01 > Title: Host Metadata for the Web > Creation_date: 2009-02-10 > WG ID: Independent Submission > Number_of_pages: 12 > > Abstract: > This memo describes a method for locating host-specific metadata for > the Web. > > > > The IETF Secretariat. > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From tlr@w3.org Tue Feb 10 05:38:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C183A6BE0 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.950, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4z8A5yGOQLXh for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EE93A6B51 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from iCoaster.does-not-exist.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958214EECB; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by iCoaster.does-not-exist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id KEUR88-000SBS-60; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:38:32 +0100 Message-Id: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> From: Thomas Roessler To: Mark Nottingham , Eran Hammer-Lahav Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:38:31 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:38:30 -0000 Going through draft-nottingham-site-meta-01: > 3. The host-meta File Format > As with HTTP headers, field-names are not case-sensitive, > unrecognised field-names SHOULD be silently ignored when parsing > this format, and ordering of fields SHOULD NOT be considered > significant unless specified otherwise. Additionally, although the > syntax does not explicitly allow empty lines between fields, parsers > SHOULD silently discard them (i.e., be permissive in what they > accept). Field content is constrained by the specification indicated > by its associated field-name. What's the cost of just permitting empty lines between fields in the sytnax vs having the current "SHOULD parse"? The current text sounds like a gratuitous interop problem to me. > 5. Minting New meta-fields > Applications that wish to mint new meta-fields for use in the host- > meta format MUST register them in the host-meta field-registry, > following the procedures in Section 7.2. Field-names MUST conform to > the field-name ABNF Section 3, and field-value syntax MUST be well- > defined (e.g., using ABNF, or a reference to the syntax of an > existing header field-value). Field-values SHOULD use the ISO-859-1 > character encoding. If a field-value applies to a scope other than > the entire authority, that scope MUST be well-defined. Editorial nit: ISO-8859-1 is missing an 8 here. More substantially, is there any particular reason to not just go with utf-8 here? After all, the content type is *appplication*/host-meta anyway. -- Thomas Roessler, W3C From tlr@w3.org Tue Feb 10 06:57:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008E63A6B7B for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:57:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.966 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.966 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.633, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ukOGiEmRautW for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD9B3A6B6E for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from iCoaster.does-not-exist.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F984EEC8; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by iCoaster.does-not-exist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id KEUUV4-000SGV-FS; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: From: Thomas Roessler To: Mark Nottingham , Eran Hammer-Lahav Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Origin vs Authority; use of HTTPS (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:57:04 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Adam Barth , ietf-http-wg@w3.org, Collin Jackson X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:57:03 -0000 Reading draft-nottingham-site-meta-01... > 4. Discovering host-meta Files > The metadata for a given authority can be discovered by > dereferencing the path /host-meta on the same authority. For > example, for an HTTP URI [RFC2616], the following request would > obtain metadata for the authority "www.example.com:80"; Editorial nit: That semicolon wants to be a colon. > GET /host-meta HTTP/1.1 > Host: www.example.com It is somewhat unclear what the scope of the host-meta file is, or more precisely, how the URI for the host-meta file is derived from the URI of the resource that the metadata apply to. Section 4 seems to suggest that the URI is maybe generated by dereferencing the relative URI reference /host-meta using the resource's URI as the base URI, but it doesn't say that clearly; the use of "authority" suggests that the choice of the protocol is actually up to the implementation. From the previous apps-discuss thread, it seems like the main use case for permitting metadata to leak across schemes (and therefore, typically ports -- though ports and schemes are strictly speaking orthogonal) lies with URI schemes that do not have a resource retrieval operation readily available, e.g., mailto. On the other hand, I'm extremely wary about anything near HTTP that might tear down origin boundaries without a great deal of care. E.g., a purely authority-based approach might permit metadata to leak from the HTTP part of a site (where no integrity protection is given) into its HTTPS part (where integrity protection and authenticity of data is deemed important), possibly permitting attacks against web applications that are ostensibly protected -- as is alluded to in the security considerations. The obvious solution to that part of the puzzle is to let the mechanism default to the same URI scheme, unless there is a specific convention to the contrary. That should cover any URI schemes for which a safe retrieval operation is defined (HTTP, HTTPS, FTP come to mind). For other URI schemes, one could either punt on this issue completely, define a default fall-back to HTTP (or HTTPS, depending on which of the two better matches the security properties of the protocol in question), or actually say explicitly what's the correct scheme. Thoughts? -- Thomas Roessler, W3C From tlr@w3.org Tue Feb 10 16:48:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0807D3A63CB for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.616 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.616 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.983, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HuD+r++PQIFX for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F233A6CDB for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from iCoaster.does-not-exist.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEA94EEC8; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by iCoaster.does-not-exist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id KEVM8W-000TT8-GB; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:48:32 +0100 From: Thomas Roessler To: www-talk@w3.org In-Reply-To: <8E28F21A-96DE-4426-88A8-1E4A76A970E6@yahoo-inc.com> Subject: Re: Origin vs Authority; use of HTTPS (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) References: <8E28F21A-96DE-4426-88A8-1E4A76A970E6@yahoo-inc.com> Message-Id: <745649D1-365B-4D1D-A009-C2FB944A3A42@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:48:32 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: Collin Jackson , Adam Barth , discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , ietf-http-wg@w3.org, Mark Nottingham X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:48:31 -0000 On 11 Feb 2009, at 01:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Gentle reminder; the draft asks for discussion on www-talk. Sending > followups there (I should have mentioned this in the announcement, > sorry)... (and I should read instructions.... apologies) >> The obvious solution to that part of the puzzle is to let the >> mechanism default to the same URI scheme, unless there is a >> specific convention to the contrary. That should cover any URI >> schemes for which a safe retrieval operation is defined (HTTP, >> HTTPS, FTP come to mind). > > I'm happy to clarify this by either adding scheme/protocol to the > (host, port) tuple (although we'll probably have to come up with a > different term than "authority"; PLEASE don't say "endpoint" ;), > which will affect both the default scoping of application as well as > the discovery mechanism, or just limiting it to discovery. I'd use the (scheme, host, port) triple to identify the endpoints that we're dealing with here, both for scope and discovery. Adam Barth's draft-abarth-origin gives a canonicalization procedure for these tuples. That will be useful when the tuples derived from different URIs need to be compared, to determine whether one is in the same site metadata scope as the other. Calling that kind of triple "an origin" seems fine, and is consistent with the usage of that word in draft-abarth-origin and elsewhere. The benefit of using the triple for both discovery and scope is that you don't acquire yet another possible cross-origin channel in the browser. >> For other URI schemes, one could either punt on this issue >> completely, define a default fall-back to HTTP (or HTTPS, depending >> on which of the two better matches the security properties of the >> protocol in question), or actually say explicitly what's the >> correct scheme. > > I'm inclined to punt on it. Default fall-back to HTTP makes too many > assumptions. Same inclination here, actually. From tlr@w3.org Tue Feb 10 17:05:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C10128C315 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:05:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.861 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.861 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.737, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCkM5ezKsNrt for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA9A28C264 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from iCoaster.does-not-exist.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E889E4EEC8; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by iCoaster.does-not-exist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id KEVN1P-000TUA-ET; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:05:49 +0100 From: Thomas Roessler To: Mark Nottingham , www-talk@w3.org In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) References: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> Message-Id: <5DCCBC13-C3C2-4BE8-A846-EB3FE9F9838D@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:05:48 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:05:47 -0000 (diverting to www-talk, too...) On 11 Feb 2009, at 01:20, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Yeah, I'm not completely happy with it yet. The thought was that > since blank lines don't introduce ambiguity here, they're not > harmful. OTOH one of my goals for the format is to allow existing > HTTP header and MIME parsers (e.g., in Python) to be used on the > format, and they very well may barf on a blank line. Well, they'll barf on blank lines and declare the header over; changing that within the parser (or just restarting it on the rest of the file) should be relatively cheap. BTW, I notice that this draft is silent on the HTTP header syntax's combining feature for multiple occurences of the same field (last paragraph of 4.2, RFC 2616); I suspect that to be one of the more likely causes for surprises if HTTP header parsers are re-used. (No such risk with MIME parsers.) Finally, why disallow whitespace stuffed folding? It's pretty useful to make long lines editable, and I suspect that we're assuming /host- meta to be the product of some human with emacs in their hands. ;-) Implementing it is easy, and a given if existing parsers are used. > So, the right thing to do might be to explicitly disallow them, both > in BNF and prose. Eran, thoughts? I'd just prefer to not have the BNF say "no empty lines", and then have prose that says the opposite, but with a SHOULD. >>> 5. Minting New meta-fields >> >>> Applications that wish to mint new meta-fields for use in the >>> host- meta format MUST register them in the host-meta field- >>> registry, following the procedures in Section 7.2. Field-names >>> MUST conform to the field-name ABNF Section 3, and field-value >>> syntax MUST be well- defined (e.g., using ABNF, or a reference to >>> the syntax of an existing header field-value). Field-values SHOULD >>> use the ISO-859-1 character encoding. If a field-value applies to >>> a scope other than the entire authority, that scope MUST be well- >>> defined. >> >> Editorial nit: ISO-8859-1 is missing an 8 here. > > That one always gets me, thanks. > >> More substantially, is there any particular reason to not just go >> with utf-8 here? After all, the content type is *appplication*/ >> host-meta anyway. > > Same as above; allowing existing parsers and serialisation libraries > to be used. That said, there have been many arguments in HTTPbis > that existing libraries won't harm non-ASCII characters in transit, > but IIRC no one has actually gone out and surveyed what they do... That suggests that it's a coin toss, unless the mythical "someone" does that work. May I, in that event, suggest that we use a coin biased in favor of broader internationalization, i.e., UTF-8? From tlr@w3.org Tue Feb 10 17:28:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F332C3A6CD1 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:28:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.943 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.943 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.656, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TpMtAtIzB712 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4E33A6A44 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from iCoaster.does-not-exist.org (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40644EECE; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by iCoaster.does-not-exist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id KEVO3G-000TWC-77; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:28:28 +0100 From: Thomas Roessler To: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) References: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> <5DCCBC13-C3C2-4BE8-A846-EB3FE9F9838D@w3.org> Message-Id: <252CD966-15AD-4709-806F-83FBE5300A5F@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:28:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , www-talk@w3.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:28:36 -0000 On 11 Feb 2009, at 02:18, Mark Nottingham wrote: [ASCII vs UTF-8] > OTOH we're talking about a SHOULD here. Maybe it just needs more > careful guidance; i.e., that you should stick to ASCII unless you're > conveying elements for presentation to end users. Well, one point to consider is how you expect IRIs and IRI references to be represented. There's one school of thought (more common in the IETF crowd) that says that these should be convereted to ASCII early, and therefore shouldn't occur here. The other school of thought (more common at W3C) says that they're fine in the places where XML and other document formats have always accepted URIs, and therefore should be representable in this spot. There are some properties of the direction that the IDNA update effort is going into that suggest that the IETF school of thought is less likely to cause interoperability problems. The other question is what the cost of violating this SHOULD is. Assume that some people have a really good reason to violate an ASCII or ISO-8859-1 SHOULD, and actually go for UTF-8. You now get mixed character sets in a single metadata file. I'm not sure that's desirable... (BTW, are we just going down the rathole of defining yet another tag- value format that's subtly different? Maybe the spec should just say "use HTTP header format, but with UTF-8", or "use RFC 822, but with UTF-8".) -- Thomas Roessler, W3C From eran@hueniverse.com Tue Feb 10 23:21:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426C63A68AD for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:21:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.503, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqfWwDo9cYk1 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plex1out01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plex1out01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.180.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 755033A68AB for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13092 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2009 07:21:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.ex1.secureserver.net) (72.167.180.21) by p3plex1out01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 2009 07:21:20 -0000 Received: from P3PW5EX1MB01.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET ([10.6.135.19]) by P3PW5EX1HT003.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET ([72.167.180.21]) with mapi; Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:21:17 -0700 From: Eran Hammer-Lahav To: Mark Nottingham , Thomas Roessler Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:21:08 -0700 Subject: RE: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Thread-Topic: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Thread-Index: AcmMGU89gck6oAjeQOy/96qkHX8ZVQ== Message-ID: <90C41DD21FB7C64BB94121FBBC2E7234127C939CBD@P3PW5EX1MB01.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET> References: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "discuss@apps.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 07:21:17 -0000 (not sure how my work email got into this thread... but please replace it w= ith this one) > From: Mark Nottingham [mailto:mnot@yahoo-inc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:21 PM > > On 11/02/2009, at 12:38 AM, Thomas Roessler wrote: > > >> As with HTTP headers, field-names are not case-sensitive, > >> unrecognised field-names SHOULD be silently ignored when parsing > >> this format, and ordering of fields SHOULD NOT be considered > >> significant unless specified otherwise. Additionally, although the > >> syntax does not explicitly allow empty lines between fields, > >> parsers SHOULD silently discard them (i.e., be permissive in what > >> they accept). Field content is constrained by the specification > >> indicated by its associated field-name. > > > > What's the cost of just permitting empty lines between fields in the > > sytnax vs having the current "SHOULD parse"? The current text > > sounds like a gratuitous interop problem to me. > > Yeah, I'm not completely happy with it yet. The thought was that since > blank lines don't introduce ambiguity here, they're not harmful. OTOH > one of my goals for the format is to allow existing HTTP header and > MIME parsers (e.g., in Python) to be used on the format, and they very > well may barf on a blank line. > > So, the right thing to do might be to explicitly disallow them, both > in BNF and prose. Eran, thoughts? I wanted to either allow in both or explicitly disallow in both. Allowing t= hem has the advantage of disabling the ability to stick other payload after= the line break. But I see the logic in following the HTTP header structure= which was my original inspiration for this general structure. I would say = I am neutral with slight lean towards disallowing. EHL From eran@hueniverse.com Thu Feb 12 23:18:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168503A6A06 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:18:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4DASG05ToP9w for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plex1out02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plex1out02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.180.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BD233A684E for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7650 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2009 07:18:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.ex1.secureserver.net) (72.167.180.20) by p3plex1out02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2009 07:18:35 -0000 Received: from P3PW5EX1MB01.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET ([10.6.135.19]) by P3PW5EX1HT002.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET ([72.167.180.20]) with mapi; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:18:35 -0700 From: Eran Hammer-Lahav To: "www-talk@w3.org" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:18:24 -0700 Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt Thread-Topic: I-D Action:draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt Thread-Index: AcmNquMTJEF/t0n6REW+Lk5kUA+AsAAAF6+F Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20090213071502.24CF93A684E@core3.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_C5BA5EC112901eranhueniversecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "www-tag@w3.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:18:32 -0000 --_004_C5BA5EC112901eranhueniversecom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C5BA5EC112901eranhueniversecom_" --_000_C5BA5EC112901eranhueniversecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please discuss on the www-talk@w3.org list. For those who have read previous revisions (thanks!), please note that exce= pt for Appendix B, the rest of the spec was significantly changed and a fre= sh read is recommended. Thanks, EHL ------ Forwarded Message From: Reply-To: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:15:02 -0700 To: Subject: I-D Action:draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : Link-based Resource Descriptor Discovery Author(s) : E. Hammer-Lahav Filename : draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2009-02-12 This memo describes a process for obtaining information about a resource identified by a URI. The 'information about a resource', a resource descriptor, provides machine-readable information that aims to increase interoperability and enhance the interaction with the resource. This memo only defines the process for locating and obtaining the descriptor, but leaves the descriptor format and its interpretation out of scope. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ------ End of Forwarded Message --_000_C5BA5EC112901eranhueniversecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: I-D Action:draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt Please discuss on the www-talk@w3.org= list.

For those who have read previous revisions (thanks!), please note that exce= pt for Appendix B, the rest of the spec was significantly changed and a fre= sh read is recommended.

Thanks,

EHL


------ Forwarded Message
From: <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
Reply-To: <internet-drafts@i= etf.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:15:02 -0700
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org&= gt;
Subject: I-D Action:draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the = on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

        Title    &nb= sp;      : Link-based Resource Descriptor Dis= covery
        Author(s)    = ;   : E. Hammer-Lahav
        Filename    =     : draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt
        Pages    &nb= sp;      : 25
        Date    &nbs= p;       : 2009-02-12

This memo describes a process for obtaining information about a
resource identified by a URI.  The 'information about a resource', a resource descriptor, provides machine-readable information that aims
to increase interoperability and enhance the interaction with the
resource.  This memo only defines the process for locating and
obtaining the descriptor, but leaves the descriptor format and its
interpretation out of scope.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hammer-discovery-02.txt
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet= -drafts/

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D419D28C146 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:58:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.980, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvwxQANlL-3v for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ew0-f19.google.com (mail-ew0-f19.google.com [209.85.219.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9719728C118 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy12 with SMTP id 12so1797007ewy.10 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:58:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: adam@adambarth.com Received: by 10.210.90.20 with SMTP id n20mr4940211ebb.72.1234285109863; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:58:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:58:29 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3ac6440db9377947 Message-ID: <7789133a0902100858o64392f45s7786e4b1d106b046@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Origin vs Authority; use of HTTPS (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) From: Adam Barth To: Thomas Roessler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:35:57 -0800 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , Mark Nottingham , ietf-http-wg@w3.org, Collin Jackson X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:58:29 -0000 Wow, this draft is scary. I haven't seen the prior discussion of this draft, but we should learn from the mistakes of Flash's crossdomain.xml policy file. In particular, you should require that the host-meta file should be served with a specific mime type (ignore the response if the mime type is wrong. This protects servers that let users upload content from having attackers upload a bogus host-meta file. Also, if you want this feature to be useful for Web browsers, you should align the scope of the host-meta file with the notion or origin (not authority). Section 4 seems to imply that the scope is "www.example.com:80" but Section 6 implies the scope is "https://www.example.com". In fact, computing the origin of a URL correctly is more complex than this draft assumes. For details, see my origin draft. That said, I think host-meta would be super useful if specified correctly. Adam On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:57 AM, Thomas Roessler wrote: > Reading draft-nottingham-site-meta-01... > >> 4. Discovering host-meta Files > >> The metadata for a given authority can be discovered by dereferencing the >> path /host-meta on the same authority. For example, for an HTTP URI >> [RFC2616], the following request would obtain metadata for the authority >> "www.example.com:80"; > > Editorial nit: That semicolon wants to be a colon. > >> GET /host-meta HTTP/1.1 >> Host: www.example.com > > It is somewhat unclear what the scope of the host-meta file is, or more > precisely, how the URI for the host-meta file is derived from the URI of the > resource that the metadata apply to. > > Section 4 seems to suggest that the URI is maybe generated by dereferencing > the relative URI reference /host-meta using the resource's URI as the base > URI, but it doesn't say that clearly; the use of "authority" suggests that > the choice of the protocol is actually up to the implementation. > > From the previous apps-discuss thread, it seems like the main use case for > permitting metadata to leak across schemes (and therefore, typically ports > -- though ports and schemes are strictly speaking orthogonal) lies with URI > schemes that do not have a resource retrieval operation readily available, > e.g., mailto. > > On the other hand, I'm extremely wary about anything near HTTP that might > tear down origin boundaries without a great deal of care. E.g., a purely > authority-based approach might permit metadata to leak from the HTTP part of > a site (where no integrity protection is given) into its HTTPS part (where > integrity protection and authenticity of data is deemed important), possibly > permitting attacks against web applications that are ostensibly protected -- > as is alluded to in the security considerations. > > The obvious solution to that part of the puzzle is to let the mechanism > default to the same URI scheme, unless there is a specific convention to the > contrary. That should cover any URI schemes for which a safe retrieval > operation is defined (HTTP, HTTPS, FTP come to mind). > > For other URI schemes, one could either punt on this issue completely, > define a default fall-back to HTTP (or HTTPS, depending on which of the two > better matches the security properties of the protocol in question), or > actually say explicitly what's the correct scheme. > > Thoughts? > > -- > Thomas Roessler, W3C > > From mnot@yahoo-inc.com Tue Feb 10 16:21:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176E53A6A3D for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:21:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GUC2P2Muy2gC for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com (mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com [69.147.107.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1103A63CB for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c26.hq.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.26]) by mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.out) with ESMTP id n1B0KkXq075474; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:20:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=fusaP2PuXhPjjndZNQhDCRrCevJF+8mjgnWuxhDMrh5jyB5Jgq5+IxFMJq8b9ZTJ Message-Id: From: Mark Nottingham To: Thomas Roessler In-Reply-To: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:20:45 +1100 References: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:35:57 -0800 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:21:01 -0000 On 11/02/2009, at 12:38 AM, Thomas Roessler wrote: > Going through draft-nottingham-site-meta-01: >> 3. The host-meta File Format > >> As with HTTP headers, field-names are not case-sensitive, >> unrecognised field-names SHOULD be silently ignored when parsing >> this format, and ordering of fields SHOULD NOT be considered >> significant unless specified otherwise. Additionally, although the >> syntax does not explicitly allow empty lines between fields, >> parsers SHOULD silently discard them (i.e., be permissive in what >> they accept). Field content is constrained by the specification >> indicated by its associated field-name. > > What's the cost of just permitting empty lines between fields in the > sytnax vs having the current "SHOULD parse"? The current text > sounds like a gratuitous interop problem to me. Yeah, I'm not completely happy with it yet. The thought was that since blank lines don't introduce ambiguity here, they're not harmful. OTOH one of my goals for the format is to allow existing HTTP header and MIME parsers (e.g., in Python) to be used on the format, and they very well may barf on a blank line. So, the right thing to do might be to explicitly disallow them, both in BNF and prose. Eran, thoughts? >> 5. Minting New meta-fields > >> Applications that wish to mint new meta-fields for use in the host- >> meta format MUST register them in the host-meta field-registry, >> following the procedures in Section 7.2. Field-names MUST conform >> to the field-name ABNF Section 3, and field-value syntax MUST be >> well- defined (e.g., using ABNF, or a reference to the syntax of an >> existing header field-value). Field-values SHOULD use the ISO-859-1 >> character encoding. If a field-value applies to a scope other than >> the entire authority, that scope MUST be well-defined. > > Editorial nit: ISO-8859-1 is missing an 8 here. That one always gets me, thanks. > More substantially, is there any particular reason to not just go > with utf-8 here? After all, the content type is *appplication*/host- > meta anyway. Same as above; allowing existing parsers and serialisation libraries to be used. That said, there have been many arguments in HTTPbis that existing libraries won't harm non-ASCII characters in transit, but IIRC no one has actually gone out and surveyed what they do... -- Mark Nottingham From mnot@yahoo-inc.com Tue Feb 10 16:31:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81923A6835 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:31:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -19.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-19.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FYw5SFfq-Fag for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com (mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com [69.147.107.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE233A63CB for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c26.hq.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.26]) by mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.out) with ESMTP id n1B0V5jW079465; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:31:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=from:to:in-reply-to:subject:references:message-id: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:reply-to:mime-version:date:cc:x-mailer; b=J1KOf9FQSODSW+A30BStHYr6X0CUh9sp/66M9FHaUV9kGuC1a0TA6a3lLBUENBBV From: Mark Nottingham To: Thomas Roessler In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: Origin vs Authority; use of HTTPS (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) References: Message-Id: <8E28F21A-96DE-4426-88A8-1E4A76A970E6@yahoo-inc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:31:05 +1100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:35:57 -0800 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , ietf-http-wg@w3.org, Adam Barth , Collin Jackson X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: www-talk@w3.org List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:31:26 -0000 Hi Thomas, Gentle reminder; the draft asks for discussion on www-talk. Sending followups there (I should have mentioned this in the announcement, sorry)... Responses below. On 11/02/2009, at 1:57 AM, Thomas Roessler wrote: > Reading draft-nottingham-site-meta-01... > >> 4. Discovering host-meta Files > >> The metadata for a given authority can be discovered by >> dereferencing the path /host-meta on the same authority. For >> example, for an HTTP URI [RFC2616], the following request would >> obtain metadata for the authority "www.example.com:80"; > > Editorial nit: That semicolon wants to be a colon. Ack. >> GET /host-meta HTTP/1.1 >> Host: www.example.com > > It is somewhat unclear what the scope of the host-meta file is, or > more precisely, how the URI for the host-meta file is derived from > the URI of the resource that the metadata apply to. > > Section 4 seems to suggest that the URI is maybe generated by > dereferencing the relative URI reference /host-meta using the > resource's URI as the base URI, but it doesn't say that clearly; the > use of "authority" suggests that the choice of the protocol is > actually up to the implementation. Well, the authority is host + port; common sense tells us that it's unlikely that the same (host, port) tuple that we speak HTTP on is also going to support SMTP or XMPP. I'm not saying that common sense is universal, however. > From the previous apps-discuss thread, it seems like the main use > case for permitting metadata to leak across schemes (and therefore, > typically ports -- though ports and schemes are strictly speaking > orthogonal) lies with URI schemes that do not have a resource > retrieval operation readily available, e.g., mailto. My understanding of the discussion's resolution was that this is not a goal for this spec any more; i.e., if there's any boundary-hopping, it will be defined by the protocol or application in use. > On the other hand, I'm extremely wary about anything near HTTP that > might tear down origin boundaries without a great deal of care. Very much agreed. > E.g., a purely authority-based approach might permit metadata to > leak from the HTTP part of a site (where no integrity protection is > given) into its HTTPS part (where integrity protection and > authenticity of data is deemed important), possibly permitting > attacks against web applications that are ostensibly protected -- as > is alluded to in the security considerations. > > The obvious solution to that part of the puzzle is to let the > mechanism default to the same URI scheme, unless there is a specific > convention to the contrary. That should cover any URI schemes for > which a safe retrieval operation is defined (HTTP, HTTPS, FTP come > to mind). I'm happy to clarify this by either adding scheme/protocol to the (host, port) tuple (although we'll probably have to come up with a different term than "authority"; PLEASE don't say "endpoint" ;), which will affect both the default scoping of application as well as the discovery mechanism, or just limiting it to discovery. > For other URI schemes, one could either punt on this issue > completely, define a default fall-back to HTTP (or HTTPS, depending > on which of the two better matches the security properties of the > protocol in question), or actually say explicitly what's the correct > scheme. I'm inclined to punt on it. Default fall-back to HTTP makes too many assumptions. Thanks, -- Mark Nottingham From adam@adambarth.com Tue Feb 10 17:02:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DFB3A6CB9 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:02:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HUOtd4RDWIxA for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ew0-f15.google.com (mail-ew0-f15.google.com [209.85.219.15]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C3C28C2EA for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy8 with SMTP id 8so93040ewy.10 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:02:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: adam@adambarth.com Received: by 10.210.58.13 with SMTP id g13mr5245327eba.114.1234314129926; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:02:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8E28F21A-96DE-4426-88A8-1E4A76A970E6@yahoo-inc.com> References: <8E28F21A-96DE-4426-88A8-1E4A76A970E6@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:02:09 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4cddd562e2d386d3 Message-ID: <7789133a0902101702n2a441586yf22af5212236a46d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Origin vs Authority; use of HTTPS (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) From: Adam Barth To: www-talk@w3.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:35:57 -0800 Cc: Collin Jackson , discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , ietf-http-wg@w3.org, Mark Nottingham X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:02:09 -0000 On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Well, the authority is host + port; common sense tells us that it's unlikely > that the same (host, port) tuple that we speak HTTP on is also going to > support SMTP or XMPP. I'm not saying that common sense is universal, > however. These assumptions are often violated in attack scenarios, especially by active network attackers who are very capable of hiding the honest https://example.com server behind a spoofed http://example.com:443 server. Adam From mnot@yahoo-inc.com Tue Feb 10 17:18:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007013A6C62 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:18:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -19.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-19.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.850, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id huAIgaTV4HB6 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout2.yahoo.com (mrout2.yahoo.com [216.145.54.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DF93A6A44 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c26.hq.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.26]) by mrout2.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/y.out) with ESMTP id n1B1Iig9024896; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:18:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=v4w1Y4uywaJ5NxqJ4wXmVw/EDkY5pykgD7cTOAMDXFpC4JXgBZGT/46bqFLkpGKJ Message-Id: From: Mark Nottingham To: Thomas Roessler In-Reply-To: <5DCCBC13-C3C2-4BE8-A846-EB3FE9F9838D@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:18:43 +1100 References: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> <5DCCBC13-C3C2-4BE8-A846-EB3FE9F9838D@w3.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:35:57 -0800 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , www-talk@w3.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:18:55 -0000 On 11/02/2009, at 12:05 PM, Thomas Roessler wrote: > (diverting to www-talk, too...) > > On 11 Feb 2009, at 01:20, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Yeah, I'm not completely happy with it yet. The thought was that >> since blank lines don't introduce ambiguity here, they're not >> harmful. OTOH one of my goals for the format is to allow existing >> HTTP header and MIME parsers (e.g., in Python) to be used on the >> format, and they very well may barf on a blank line. > > Well, they'll barf on blank lines and declare the header over; > changing that within the parser (or just restarting it on the rest > of the file) should be relatively cheap. This assumes that people will be comfortable modifying libraries. IME people tend to treat them as magical black boxes that shouldn't be opened (or even questioned) under any circumstances... > BTW, I notice that this draft is silent on the HTTP header syntax's > combining feature for multiple occurences of the same field (last > paragraph of 4.2, RFC 2616); I suspect that to be one of the more > likely causes for surprises if HTTP header parsers are re-used. (No > such risk with MIME parsers.) I'll add a note. > Finally, why disallow whitespace stuffed folding? It's pretty > useful to make long lines editable, and I suspect that we're > assuming /host-meta to be the product of some human with emacs in > their hands. ;-) Implementing it is easy, and a given if existing > parsers are used. Not necessarily; it's not very widely supported, IME. >> So, the right thing to do might be to explicitly disallow them, >> both in BNF and prose. Eran, thoughts? > > I'd just prefer to not have the BNF say "no empty lines", and then > have prose that says the opposite, but with a SHOULD. > >>>> 5. Minting New meta-fields >>> >>>> Applications that wish to mint new meta-fields for use in the >>>> host- meta format MUST register them in the host-meta field- >>>> registry, following the procedures in Section 7.2. Field-names >>>> MUST conform to the field-name ABNF Section 3, and field-value >>>> syntax MUST be well- defined (e.g., using ABNF, or a reference to >>>> the syntax of an existing header field-value). Field-values >>>> SHOULD use the ISO-859-1 character encoding. If a field-value >>>> applies to a scope other than the entire authority, that scope >>>> MUST be well-defined. >>> >>> Editorial nit: ISO-8859-1 is missing an 8 here. >> >> That one always gets me, thanks. >> >>> More substantially, is there any particular reason to not just go >>> with utf-8 here? After all, the content type is *appplication*/ >>> host-meta anyway. >> >> Same as above; allowing existing parsers and serialisation >> libraries to be used. That said, there have been many arguments in >> HTTPbis that existing libraries won't harm non-ASCII characters in >> transit, but IIRC no one has actually gone out and surveyed what >> they do... > > That suggests that it's a coin toss, unless the mythical "someone" > does that work. May I, in that event, suggest that we use a coin > biased in favor of broader internationalization, i.e., UTF-8? Well, the other side of the coin is interoperability, something that is also close to our collective hearts. OTOH we're talking about a SHOULD here. Maybe it just needs more careful guidance; i.e., that you should stick to ASCII unless you're conveying elements for presentation to end users. -- Mark Nottingham mnot@yahoo-inc.com From mnot@yahoo-inc.com Tue Feb 10 17:41:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011F428C27C for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:41:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.832 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.832 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MubVSqvWi5Cw for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout2.yahoo.com (mrout2.yahoo.com [216.145.54.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0418A3A6A2A for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c26.hq.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.26]) by mrout2.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/y.out) with ESMTP id n1B1fETn034040; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:41:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=gfwGf+D0NtoWGsVtSv2tWhTScc+C04JtaXPWP+a82xm92u4z9FwnsVOWaeZ25x2Z Message-Id: <4C35F5FF-8612-4F8B-810F-7B7C75DC32E2@yahoo-inc.com> From: Mark Nottingham To: Thomas Roessler In-Reply-To: <252CD966-15AD-4709-806F-83FBE5300A5F@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: host-meta file format comments (draft-nottingham-site-meta-01) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:41:13 +1100 References: <94F2D2EF-41FD-4FD8-8F75-09A1D3E64314@w3.org> <5DCCBC13-C3C2-4BE8-A846-EB3FE9F9838D@w3.org> <252CD966-15AD-4709-806F-83FBE5300A5F@w3.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:35:57 -0800 Cc: discuss@apps.ietf.org, Eran Hammer-Lahav , www-talk@w3.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:41:17 -0000 On 11/02/2009, at 12:28 PM, Thomas Roessler wrote: > On 11 Feb 2009, at 02:18, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > [ASCII vs UTF-8] > >> OTOH we're talking about a SHOULD here. Maybe it just needs more >> careful guidance; i.e., that you should stick to ASCII unless >> you're conveying elements for presentation to end users. > > Well, one point to consider is how you expect IRIs and IRI > references to be represented. > > There's one school of thought (more common in the IETF crowd) that > says that these should be convereted to ASCII early, and therefore > shouldn't occur here. > > The other school of thought (more common at W3C) says that they're > fine in the places where XML and other document formats have always > accepted URIs IRIs? > , and therefore should be representable in this spot. > > There are some properties of the direction that the IDNA update > effort is going into that suggest that the IETF school of thought is > less likely to cause interoperability problems. That's my experience as well. It's very well to say that IRIs should be usable everywhere, but they make things substantially more complex, and error-prone. For example, I think it was a mistake for Atom to specify the use of IRIs everywhere, including as identifiers for relation types. However, that's a discussion that still needs to take place, and a different draft... > The other question is what the cost of violating this SHOULD is. > Assume that some people have a really good reason to violate an > ASCII or ISO-8859-1 SHOULD, and actually go for UTF-8. You now get > mixed character sets in a single metadata file. I'm not sure that's > desirable... > > (BTW, are we just going down the rathole of defining yet another tag- > value format that's subtly different? Maybe the spec should just > say "use HTTP header format, but with UTF-8", or "use RFC 822, but > with UTF-8".) But that's already a different thing; although arguably HTTP headers allow UTF-8 (Roy makes this point regularly and forcefully), the impact on existing software isn't clear. I see two possible paths forward; 1) require ASCII, using encoding where human-viewable content is conveyed, or 2) require ASCII, or UTF-8 where human-viewable content is conveyed (i.e., only one of those two). Input? -- Mark Nottingham From breno@google.com Wed Feb 18 08:23:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9659D3A6A3F for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5quAU41YABC for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.33.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2EE3A69F0 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from zps37.corp.google.com (zps37.corp.google.com [172.25.146.37]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id n1IGNt9u032605 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:23:56 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1234974236; bh=PG09ZJqTjY+/kq4fnMD2j9wSDtQ=; h=DomainKey-Signature:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From:To: Cc:Content-Type:X-System-Of-Record; b=ftR1IxASkVD0ZhwG6Jy5AT9jedRE cukRFn49hxWoiJhgQGDcus8y0P6cN+idRKFSWwoeYsU4mrlG187i3eI95A== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc: content-type:x-system-of-record; b=Q9C4Tlo1yWxx45dnCP+xmB5oVDcZf6XJcadcsGyj6j+wHB21uuAReFyoBiWpgLa2k YvMZ4/j0WHbiXDnNv+qbg== Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nfv4.prod.google.com [10.48.22.4]) by zps37.corp.google.com with ESMTP id n1IGNqV5014963 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:53 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so328159nfv.1 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.65.2 with SMTP id n2mr747821eba.35.1234974232148; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:23:52 -0800 Message-ID: <29fb00360902180823q423689ebpb6f2eeef9989d93f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: host-meta comments From: Breno de Medeiros To: Apps Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c150e69fb2c046333d8d0 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: "xri@lists.oasis-open.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:23:46 -0000 --0015174c150e69fb2c046333d8d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not human-readable content, it is often the case that users eyeball such content for clues. For instance: 1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to parse host-meta files. 2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how to write one for his site. Being able to add human-readable comments on site-meta can be useful for such tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institutional memory' by documentation in place, which is often the only one that developers can locate. Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta? -- --Breno +1 (650) 214-1007 desk +1 (408) 212-0135 (Grand Central) MTV-41-3 : 383-A PST (GMT-8) / PDT(GMT-7) --0015174c150e69fb2c046333d8d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not human-readabl= e content, it is often the case that users eyeball such content for clues. = For instance:

1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to par= se host-meta files.
2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how to write= one for his site.

Being able to add human-readable comments on site= -meta can be useful for such tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institut= ional memory' by documentation in place, which is often the only one th= at developers can locate.

Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta?

--
--Breno

+1 (650) 214-1007 desk
+1 (408) 2= 12-0135 (Grand Central)
MTV-41-3 : 383-A
PST (GMT-8) / PDT(GMT-7) --0015174c150e69fb2c046333d8d0-- From enrico.marocco@telecomitalia.it Wed Feb 18 12:31:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F415C28C1FA; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:30:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dOLvGhyAxpeV; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRFEDG702BA020.telecomitalia.it (grfedg702ba020.telecomitalia.it [156.54.233.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9379A28C205; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRFHUB701BA020.griffon.local (10.188.101.111) by GRFEDG702BA020.telecomitalia.it (10.188.45.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.336.0; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:31:05 +0100 Received: from [172.16.82.18] (163.162.180.246) by smtp.telecomitalia.it (10.188.101.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.336.0; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:31:05 +0100 Message-ID: <499C7006.3070605@telecomitalia.it> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:31:02 +0100 From: Enrico Marocco User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (X11/20081018) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: [alto] IETF74 - Current status and agenda requests Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms080501010809020802060405" Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, Jon Peterson , "Vijay K. Gurbani" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:31:00 -0000 --------------ms080501010809020802060405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, As you can see on the DRAFT agenda for the SF meeting, the ALTO working group is going to meet in a 2-hour session on Thu March 26 (expect the day to change!). Since the first deadlines are approaching fast, the chairs would like to make the best use of meeting time to make progress toward meeting them. Such deadlines concern the following documents: + problem statement: this is the milestone with higher priority (WGLC is supposed to start in April 09). The WG has not adopted a draft yet, but draft-marocco-alto-problem-statement is the strong candidate which has accompanied the charter in the WG creation process and which Eric and Jan have volunteered to take over from the original authors, integrating the comments received during the previous meetings and getting it into a much better shape. If you haven't read the latest version yet, please do so before the meeting, comment and help improve it further; or, if you really think you can't live with it, the meeting in SF will be probably your last chance to present an alternative; + requirements: draft-kiesel-alto-reqs was discussed during the last two meetings, but it seems there is still no fundamental agreement in the WG about the approach the requirements document should adopt. The situation has now been stale since Minneapolis: if you want to contribute to this work and have an opinion, this is the very right time to let the group hear it; + ALTO protocol: the time constraints are a bit more relaxed than for other documents, but here is where all the fun is! Some proposals have already been presented in Minneapolis and we plan to assign time to updates and to the more to come. People willing to contribute may do so reviewing and commenting on the various proposals, helping with the editing of existing documents (feel free to contact the authors, ask the chairs if unsure), or submitting their own drafts. (Advice from very personal experience: in case you decide to submit your contribution, look at the proposals already on the table and focus your effort on the pieces of a possible solution you are most interested in, explaining very well all the whys and the hows, rather than trying to specify THE protocol.) Vijay, Jon and I are supposed to submit the preliminary agenda by March 11; if you want a slot, please send us a request by then. -- Ciao, Enrico --------------ms080501010809020802060405 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIJwTCC AzswggKkoAMCAQICEB5MAA0NQwlT3ufR7UBbG7gwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UE BhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMT I1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MDMyOTEzMDExOVoX DTA5MDMyOTEzMDExOVowejEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3RlIEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjEuMCwG CSqGSIb3DQEJARYfZW5yaWNvLm1hcm9jY29AdGVsZWNvbWl0YWxpYS5pdDEnMCUGCSqGSIb3 DQEJARYYZW5yaWNvLm1hcm9jY29AZ21haWwuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8A MIIBCgKCAQEAscB8QkU/epro6Z59GpYTko0wKy8RkilXiec5xWsN2DuaGvHSz4IeWJlPiP7z 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from mplus1.messagingarchitects.com (bastille.messagingarchitects.com [216.94.112.120]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65F93A6B54 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] lisad@messagingarchitects.com [74.95.2.169] by mplus1.messagingarchitects.com with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.4.debug; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:14:40 -0500 X-MailFrom: lisa.dusseault@messagingarchitects.com Message-Id: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> From: Lisa Dusseault To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:14:36 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mplus-Virus-Scanned: mplusversion: 2008.4.debug ; timestamp: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:14:41 -0500 engine: XCFAntiVirus1 Engine; version: 3868 (20090219)/1082 (20090213)/1088 (20090218)/1.009 (20070910) result: 0 ; ref: none; status: success; error: none engine: XCFAntiVirus2 Engine; version: 5.1.00/5529 result: 0 ; ref: none; status: success; error: none engine: XCFAntiVirus3 Engine; version: 5.07.0001 result: 0 ; ref: str=0001.0A010206.499D937C.0153,ss=1,fgs=0; status: success; error: none X-Mplus-Spam-Scanned: mplusversion: 2008.4.debug ; timestamp: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:14:41 -0500 engine: XCFSPAM1 Engine ; version: Not Available ; level: 0 ref: 0-0-0-1793-c status: success ;error: none engine: XCFSPAM4 Engine ; version: 5.1.2/2009.02.18.21.59.02/2005.02.11.04.44.13/0/0/2007.01.28.16.09.00/2007.02.13.01.23.26/0/0/2009.01.22.21.42.10/2009.02.19.17.01.00/2009.02.19.02.40.00/2009.02.19.17.01.58/0/0/2009.02.14.00.34.21/; level: 2 ref: status: success ;error: none Cc: Chris Newman X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:14:27 -0000 Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? So far, I would like to have MMOX people explain in very general terms the opportunities for interoperability between virtual worlds. Neal Stephenson's Metaverse, here we come! LIsa --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- Messaging Architects sponsors The Spamhaus Project. From eran@hueniverse.com Thu Feb 19 11:00:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0ABF3A69E3 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:00:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0dk0-j0Xfpyk for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plex1out01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plex1out01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.180.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B0CDE3A6A26 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3444 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2009 19:00:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.ex1.secureserver.net) (72.167.180.20) by p3plex1out01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2009 19:00:40 -0000 Received: from P3PW5EX1MB01.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET ([10.6.135.19]) by P3PW5EX1HT002.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET ([72.167.180.20]) with mapi; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:00:40 -0700 From: Eran Hammer-Lahav To: Lisa Dusseault , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:00:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Thread-Topic: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Thread-Index: AcmStZcWgmBE75bnQ/e4O7bTCUTnJgADsMLY Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C5C2EC5612D51eranhueniversecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Chris Newman X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:00:28 -0000 --_000_C5C2EC5612D51eranhueniversecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would love to give a 2 minutes overview of the link-based discovery work. EHL On 2/19/09 9:14 AM, "Lisa Dusseault" wrote: Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? So far, I would like to have MMOX people explain in very general terms the opportunities for interoperability between virtual worlds. Neal Stephenson's Metaverse, here we come! LIsa --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- Messaging Architects sponsors The Spamhaus Project. _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --_000_C5C2EC5612D51eranhueniversecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting I would love to give a 2 minutes overview of the link-based discovery= work.

EHL


On 2/19/09 9:14 AM, "Lisa Dusseault" <lisa.dusseault@messagingarchitects.com> w= rote:



Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning?

So far, I would like to have MMOX people explain in very general terms
the opportunities for interoperability between virtual worlds.  Neal Stephenson's Metaverse, here we come!

LIsa

--- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall ---
Messaging Architects sponsors The Spamhaus Project.

_______________________________________________
Apps-Discuss mailing list
Apps-Discuss@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

--_000_C5C2EC5612D51eranhueniversecom_-- From balfanz@google.com Wed Feb 18 08:54:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92FF3A6825 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gq1MWkV6NM+x for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.45.13]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1623A680A for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.77]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id n1IGsoDg016810 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:51 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1234976091; bh=K1xbP/Ue/nLpVJoGULxryE6lDkY=; h=DomainKey-Signature:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Content-Type:X-System-Of-Record; b=G 2xpTClagZS2+8b2kzeeGjX6rztgFJpsWSt9Ea6J8323TTquR+XaqaQJA+/GKhcK6bi+ K1yZZqCAd16wpKqHkw== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=iu/NOhGATzuZIljAZCsSlh8IVSC1dwUj2VhUM3Fq60xWSXoCnp2XWBN4MRzPl4cO0 XWWVb8rxgV4Yp/AaIcphA== Received: from qyk13 (qyk13.prod.google.com [10.241.83.141]) by wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id n1IGsP3d024203 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:49 -0800 Received: by qyk13 with SMTP id 13so4721950qyk.5 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.28.141 with SMTP id m13mr12798564qac.85.1234976088584; Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <29fb00360902180823q423689ebpb6f2eeef9989d93f@mail.gmail.com> References: <29fb00360902180823q423689ebpb6f2eeef9989d93f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:54:48 -0800 Message-ID: <60c552b80902180854j5b9ecf1ck9da84e11ef782fa9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [xri] host-meta comments From: Dirk Balfanz To: Breno de Medeiros Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175caae610f238046334471f X-System-Of-Record: true X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:01:35 -0800 Cc: Apps Discuss , "xri@lists.oasis-open.org" , "www-talk@w3.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:55:37 -0000 --0015175caae610f238046334471f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Breno de Medeiros wrote: > While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not > human-readable content, it is often the case that users eyeball such content > for clues. For instance: > > 1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to parse host-meta files. > 2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how to write > one for his site. > > Being able to add human-readable comments on site-meta can be useful for > such tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institutional memory' by > documentation in place, which is often the only one that developers can > locate. > > Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta? > +1 for comments. I propose that any line that starts with # (possibly preceded by whitespace) is a comment. Dirk. > > -- > --Breno > > +1 (650) 214-1007 desk > +1 (408) 212-0135 (Grand Central) > MTV-41-3 : 383-A > PST (GMT-8) / PDT(GMT-7) > --0015175caae610f238046334471f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Breno d= e Medeiros <breno@= google.com> wrote:
While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not human-readabl= e content, it is often the case that users eyeball such content for clues. = For instance:

1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to par= se host-meta files.
2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how to write= one for his site.

Being able to add human-readable comments on site= -meta can be useful for such tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institut= ional memory' by documentation in place, which is often the only one th= at developers can locate.

Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta?

+1 for co= mments.

I propose that any line that starts with # (possibly preced= ed by whitespace) is a comment.

Dirk.
 

--
--Breno

+1 (650) 214-1007= desk
+1 (408) 212-0135 (Grand Central)
MTV-41-3 : 383-A
PST (GMT-8) / PDT= (GMT-7)

--0015175caae610f238046334471f-- From breno@google.com Thu Feb 19 18:38:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C5E3A6B0F for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_40=-0.185, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xworOiLg02Sd for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.33.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD76A3A6AFA for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wpaz21.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz21.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.85]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id n1K2cNds022964 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:38:24 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1235097504; bh=XuIu5zc5e+xTGTq5prXRYI1cQb8=; h=DomainKey-Signature:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Content-Type:X-System-Of-Record; b=N ivvaDcQomjIfewDwN/LfKicgjhZ1A5O/KJH1YDS6g3Ba3MkMN6WHJ/LwpUq00tcRm5l Y1kV0BMHLboGoDZMng== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=KYp1elvLqYOyinz+Tnly7/H9OMnAL1SAOMatR9+HmePZ3LXdDezc2O2ZrC+iKHX5+ 2iEhwBLyAy2K9C51baulA== Received: from ewy14 (ewy14.prod.google.com [10.241.103.14]) by wpaz21.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id n1K2cKgr017942 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:21 -0800 Received: by ewy14 with SMTP id 14so738379ewy.19 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.43.10 with SMTP id q10mr213663ebq.111.1235097500537; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1973B947-1F16-4D99-A2ED-7B9AB544EAEB@yahoo-inc.com> References: <29fb00360902180823q423689ebpb6f2eeef9989d93f@mail.gmail.com> <60c552b80902180854j5b9ecf1ck9da84e11ef782fa9@mail.gmail.com> <1973B947-1F16-4D99-A2ED-7B9AB544EAEB@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:38:20 -0800 Message-ID: <29fb00360902191838v3712d43cta2737870c59d6ba7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [xri] host-meta comments From: Breno de Medeiros To: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1146c854900463508b75 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: Apps Discuss , Dirk Balfanz , "xri@lists.oasis-open.org" , "www-talk@w3.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:38:13 -0000 --0015174c1146c854900463508b75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good point. Sounds good to me. On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > The problem is that this will make it impossible to use an existing HTTP > header parser (e.g., in Python, Perl, Ruby, whatever's standard library), a > goal that's guided a lot of the design. > > Why not just use > > Link: ; rel="something" > Comment: This one is for you, Joe! > Link ; rel="joes-link" > > ? > > > > On 19/02/2009, at 3:54 AM, Dirk Balfanz wrote: > > >> >> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Breno de Medeiros >> wrote: >> While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not >> human-readable content, it is often the case that users eyeball such content >> for clues. For instance: >> >> 1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to parse host-meta files. >> 2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how to >> write one for his site. >> >> Being able to add human-readable comments on site-meta can be useful for >> such tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institutional memory' by >> documentation in place, which is often the only one that developers can >> locate. >> >> Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta? >> >> +1 for comments. >> >> I propose that any line that starts with # (possibly preceded by >> whitespace) is a comment. >> >> Dirk. >> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham mnot@yahoo-inc.com > > > -- --Breno +1 (650) 214-1007 desk +1 (408) 212-0135 (Grand Central) MTV-41-3 : 383-A PST (GMT-8) / PDT(GMT-7) --0015174c1146c854900463508b75 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good point. Sounds good to me.

On Thu, Fe= b 19, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:

The problem is that this will make it impossible to use an existing HTTP he= ader parser (e.g., in Python, Perl, Ruby, whatever's standard library),= a goal that's guided a lot of the design.

Why not just use

Link: </foo>; rel=3D"something"
Comment: This one is for you, Joe!
Link </bar>; rel=3D"joes-link"

?



On 19/02/2009, at 3:54 AM, Dirk Balfanz wrote:



On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Breno de Medeiros <breno@google.com> wrote:
While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not human-readabl= e content, it is often the case that users eyeball such content for clues. = For instance:

1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to parse host-meta files. 2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how to write= one for his site.

Being able to add human-readable comments on site-meta can be useful for su= ch tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institutional memory' by docum= entation in place, which is often the only one that developers can locate.<= br>
Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta?

+1 for comments.

I propose that any line that starts with # (possibly preceded by whitespace= ) is a comment.

Dirk.


--
Mark Nottingham       mnot@yahoo-inc.com





--
--Breno

+= 1 (650) 214-1007 desk
+1 (408) 212-0135 (Grand Central)
MTV-41-3 : 38= 3-A
PST (GMT-8) / PDT(GMT-7)
--0015174c1146c854900463508b75-- From Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Fri Feb 20 00:21:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8033A6A1D for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:21:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivRi5rlXynP7 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897C43A684F for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id n1K8LfLj018893; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:21:46 +0200 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:21:45 +0200 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.6]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:21:36 +0200 Received: from NOK-AM1MHUB-05.mgdnok.nokia.com (65.54.30.9) by NOK-am1MHUB-02.mgdnok.nokia.com (65.54.30.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:21:36 +0100 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.89]) by NOK-AM1MHUB-05.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.9]) with mapi; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:21:35 +0100 From: To: , Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:21:34 +0100 Subject: RE: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Thread-Topic: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Thread-Index: AcmStZ4i/RJC9tWKR2ucJxVBHx4LbAAeY/7w Message-ID: <913D54FAAD0B4F40A6C67321B4091B1B3095091E8B@NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com> References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> In-Reply-To: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2009 08:21:36.0793 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F64E890:01C99334] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: Chris.Newman@Sun.COM X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:21:37 -0000 Hi Lisa, I am new to virtual worlds, therefore I was wondering about this myself. My initial guesses were: - Chat. But chat does not make sense - why would a Star Wars guy talk with= a guy from Warcraft? They are immersed in their own virtual worlds; what c= an these two individuals possibly have in common; why would they care about= the other? Unless of course they know each other from the real world - in = which case they have dozens of existing tools they can use to talk with eac= h other. - Moving between virtual worlds (the player could leave things behind and = walk through a teleport or something that takes him to another world). But = then again, what would a level 12 orc warrior become in the Star Wars world= ? Would the old character be discarded? Where would "his story" begin in th= e new virtual world? Usually it starts with a "birth" - which he obviously = already had. - Trading property. Actually, trading would make sense but the property sh= ould not be transferable between the virtual worlds (otherwise the first wa= rrior with a Star Destroyer would rule the virtual world in Warcraft until = a decent wizard brings over a lightsaber and an X-Wing - ruining the virtua= l world for everyone). So, if the property was to stay in the virtual world= , why would a Warcraft player buy a Millenium Falcon in the other virtual w= orld? Then, I decided to give up speculation - thinking I am surely off the track= . I would prefer having a general introduction during the Apps Opening as wel= l - a few use cases should put me on the right track. Thank you. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 -----Original Message----- From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of ext Lisa Dusseault Sent: 19 February, 2009 19:15 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Chris Newman Subject: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? So far, I would like to have MMOX people explain in very general terms the = opportunities for interoperability between virtual worlds. Neal Stephenson= 's Metaverse, here we come! LIsa --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- Messaging Architects spon= sors The Spamhaus Project. _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From mnot@yahoo-inc.com Thu Feb 19 16:02:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EFC28C24B for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:02:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fF1msxnmOH6Z for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com (mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com [69.147.107.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF32D28C245 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (snvvpn2-10-72-76-c125.hq.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.76.125]) by mrout1-b.corp.re1.yahoo.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/y.out) with ESMTP id n1K00PoE077020; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:00:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=zb5samlHAt8iivuG97c+AOedvn5OVce9d3n5SpoRxgtNxokqP60i/bEP20cZtPb0 Message-Id: <1973B947-1F16-4D99-A2ED-7B9AB544EAEB@yahoo-inc.com> From: Mark Nottingham To: Dirk Balfanz In-Reply-To: <60c552b80902180854j5b9ecf1ck9da84e11ef782fa9@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: [xri] host-meta comments Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:00:25 +1100 References: <29fb00360902180823q423689ebpb6f2eeef9989d93f@mail.gmail.com> <60c552b80902180854j5b9ecf1ck9da84e11ef782fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:01:54 -0800 Cc: Apps Discuss , "xri@lists.oasis-open.org" , "www-talk@w3.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:02:24 -0000 The problem is that this will make it impossible to use an existing HTTP header parser (e.g., in Python, Perl, Ruby, whatever's standard library), a goal that's guided a lot of the design. Why not just use Link: ; rel="something" Comment: This one is for you, Joe! Link ; rel="joes-link" ? On 19/02/2009, at 3:54 AM, Dirk Balfanz wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Breno de Medeiros > wrote: > While /host-meta is intended to be parsed by machines and not human- > readable content, it is often the case that users eyeball such > content for clues. For instance: > > 1. Developer is writing and debugging a library to parse host-meta > files. > 2. Developer is looking at /host-meta examples to get clues on how > to write one for his site. > > Being able to add human-readable comments on site-meta can be useful > for such tasks. It also helps to preserve 'institutional memory' by > documentation in place, which is often the only one that developers > can locate. > > Should there be a simple mechanism for line comments in site-meta? > > +1 for comments. > > I propose that any line that starts with # (possibly preceded by > whitespace) is a comment. > > Dirk. -- Mark Nottingham mnot@yahoo-inc.com From barryleiba@gmail.com Fri Feb 20 06:23:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0183A68B5 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:23:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fv4l0eizsdov for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE1B3A6837 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so746684yxm.49 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:24:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:x-rim-org-msg-ref-id :message-id:reply-to:x-priority:sensitivity:importance:to:subject :from:date:content-type:mime-version; bh=WX9JJuNEjFRkDkFOiD7IYQ/D6mmk6QS29Qh4jg6vGSg=; b=jO2ZTw9XdBsL4QCkGgzC7mTSvErcU3IGr+x3b6hgcKP4P5MK/F0/fqbwPQw2V6cLO3 rn2ThEd/qGkl8BqCTQbOQz57ZpshsIao3dBPpMzHRXPqNHx57BHjxJ/7zP5WE7vsjHkz JqQMh6sNqKAE9tVXVD1lPafDbusO+rEzPWALM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:x-rim-org-msg-ref-id:message-id:reply-to:x-priority :sensitivity:importance:to:subject:from:date:content-type :mime-version; b=UjHCS6KS0BKzg6vg/vfaipzClNZeCUgjUiJ1smnINL7TjXdHJ9EsJOkCA/ALa6Lqw5 smVYSVQ11gTzqM4hA8leT1zPcmYfcpnjO3dhoSLgKxGNkh/i6aSbvn+2YQvYua0bLjIK l7LN3XlY8Ahi9/8Y/9ZE8fV6CNtScTGoyEKuU= Received: by 10.151.42.12 with SMTP id u12mr2072409ybj.242.1235139844669; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bda1041.bisx.prod.on.blackberry (f1041.bda.bis.na.blackberry.com [67.223.83.55]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m33sm6438969ele.6.2009.02.20.06.24.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:24:03 -0800 (PST) Sender: Barry Leiba X-rim-org-msg-ref-id: 638354206 Message-ID: <638354206-1235139835-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1441148986-@bxe1011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> X-Priority: Normal Sensitivity: Normal Importance: Normal To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com,apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting From: "Barry Leiba" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:23:57 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:01:54 -0800 X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: barryleiba@computer.org List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:23:51 -0000 Zoltan, virtual worlds are more than RPGs -- Second Life is not about Orcs and Warcraft. Think of it more as enabling communication and transition between shopping malls, or between the streets of Budapest and those of Beijing. Barry From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Feb 20 10:27:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B2D3A6998 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3rID9P95cIMY for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01383A68AC for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wrk126.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B1BB40A27; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:21:34 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:27:36 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Macintosh/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lisa Dusseault Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> In-Reply-To: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060100090103040900000300" Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, Chris.Newman@Sun.COM, hildjj@gmail.com, Ian Hickson X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:27:24 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060100090103040900000300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa Dusseault wrote: > Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? We (Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto) think it might be valuable to discuss several of the technologies for bidirectional data streaming over HTTP. The three primary technologies we have in mind are BOSH (used as the HTTP binding for XMPP), Bayeux, and Web Sockets: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ This topic has been pursued in private emails among various parties (many cc'd on this message), but it could be useful to have a more focused, public discussion. Possible agenda items include: 1. HTTP developers describe their experience with Bayeux and other such "Comet" methods. 2. XMPP developers describe their experience with BOSH. 3. Someone from the XMPP Standards Foundation describes the XSF's work on standardization of BOSH. 4. Discuss general requirements in this space. 5. Discuss whether it might be appropriate for the IETF to work on standardization of such a technology. -- Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto --------------ms060100090103040900000300 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIWZDCC BzswggYjoAMCAQICASkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQK Ew1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBT aWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAzIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRl IENsaWVudCBDQTAeFw0wODA3MDIyMDQzMThaFw0wOTA3MDIyMDQzMThaMIHCMQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzERMA8GA1UECBMIQ29sb3JhZG8xDzANBgNVBAcTBkRlbnZlcjEiMCAGA1UEChMZWE1Q UCBTdGFuZGFyZHMgRm91bmRhdGlvbjEsMCoGA1UECxMjU3RhcnRDb20gVHJ1c3RlZCBDZXJ0 aWZpY2F0ZSBNZW1iZXIxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlMSEwHwYJKoZIhvcN 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From hardie@qualcomm.com Fri Feb 20 17:13:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A359B3A68DB for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_25=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDZIGnfQgiOF for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4BB93A6964 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=hardie@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1235178834; x=1266714834; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:to: from:subject:cc:content-type:x-ironport-av; z=MIME-Version:=201.0|Message-ID:=20|In-Reply-To:=20<499EF618.6020509@stpete r.im>|References:=20<78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F @messagingarchitects.com>=0D=0A=20<499EF618.6020509@stpet er.im>|Date:=20Fri,=2020=20Feb=202009=2017:13:40=20-0800 |To:=20Peter=20Saint-Andre=20,=0D=0A =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Lisa=20Dusseault=0D=0A=09|From:=20Ted=20Hardie=20< hardie@qualcomm.com>|Subject:=20Re:=20Suggestions=20for =20AppArea=20meeting|CC:=20"apps-discuss@ietf.org"=20,=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20"Chris. Newman@Sun.COM"=0D=0A=09,=0D=0A=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20"hildjj@gmail.com"=20,=20Ian=20Hickson=0D=0A=09|Content-Type: =20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"|X-IronPort-AV:=20 E=3DMcAfee=3Bi=3D"5100,188,5531"=3B=20a=3D"15669432"; bh=nCFMWfPYPidqF/XCx/+PxHV4GvrawjLNVIJwu8w0wuY=; b=kunL7cId65q4HjXK6oufwA+f30Q558va2H6MsZYuYMa2zT8rUEy5TT3G 3M/kdWcKULDQLaIobwp7pKux1bicmRWlpZOBGK9kas438+JwDPQOTINMi qcVDQinSj3zw0sGXIaBR0SYBhiK08sln16b4gucnFn5xkAukBoyNpJeK+ s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5100,188,5531"; a="15669432" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO ithilien.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 20 Feb 2009 17:13:53 -0800 Received: from msgtransport03.qualcomm.com (msgtransport03.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.154]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id n1L1DqZO021975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:53 -0800 Received: from nasanexhub05.na.qualcomm.com (nasanexhub05.na.qualcomm.com [129.46.134.219]) by msgtransport03.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id n1L1DhJE024146 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:44 -0800 Received: from nasanexmsp01.na.qualcomm.com (10.45.56.204) by nasanexhub05.na.qualcomm.com (129.46.134.219) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.340.0; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:43 -0800 Received: from [10.227.50.166] (10.46.82.6) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (10.45.56.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.340.0; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:13:40 -0800 To: Peter Saint-Andre , Lisa Dusseault From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: Ian Hickson , "hildjj@gmail.com" , "Chris.Newman@Sun.COM" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:13:39 -0000 At 10:27 AM -0800 2/20/09, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >Lisa Dusseault wrote: > >> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? > >We (Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto) think it might be valuable >to discuss several of the technologies for bidirectional data streaming >over HTTP. The three primary technologies we have in mind are BOSH (used >as the HTTP binding for XMPP), Bayeux, and Web Sockets: > >http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html > >http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html > >http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ > >This topic has been pursued in private emails among various parties >(many cc'd on this message), but it could be useful to have a more >focused, public discussion. Possible agenda items include: > >1. HTTP developers describe their experience with Bayeux and other such >"Comet" methods. > >2. XMPP developers describe their experience with BOSH. > >3. Someone from the XMPP Standards Foundation describes the XSF's work >on standardization of BOSH. > >4. Discuss general requirements in this space. > >5. Discuss whether it might be appropriate for the IETF to work on >standardization of such a technology. So, I see Ian's name on the cc list, so I assume one of these bullets should be the websockets w3c/whatwg status. Knowing that seems like it would feed into question 5. best, Ted Hardie >-- Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto > > >Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" >Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature.p7s >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"; size=6815; > creation-date="Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:46 GMT"; > modification-date="Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:46 GMT" > >Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1719.p7s ( / ) (002834C2) >Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt" >Content-Description: ATT00001.txt >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT00001.txt"; size=215; > creation-date="Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:46 GMT"; > modification-date="Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:27:46 GMT" > >Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:ATT00001 3202.txt (TEXT/ttxt) (002834C3) From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Feb 20 17:39:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42CE3A67A5 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:39:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXWuR47B0wVB for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99353A6816 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (dsl-179-159.dynamic-dsl.frii.net [216.17.179.159]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18E9040A2E; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:33:42 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <499F5B5F.9020209@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:39:43 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Macintosh/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050607000404020500050904" Cc: Ian Hickson , "hildjj@gmail.com" , "Chris.Newman@Sun.COM" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:39:50 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050607000404020500050904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Hardie wrote: > At 10:27 AM -0800 2/20/09, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Lisa Dusseault wrote: >> >>> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? >> We (Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto) think it might be valuable >> to discuss several of the technologies for bidirectional data streaming >> over HTTP. The three primary technologies we have in mind are BOSH (used >> as the HTTP binding for XMPP), Bayeux, and Web Sockets: >> >> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html >> >> http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html >> >> http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ >> >> This topic has been pursued in private emails among various parties >> (many cc'd on this message), but it could be useful to have a more >> focused, public discussion. Possible agenda items include: >> >> 1. HTTP developers describe their experience with Bayeux and other such >> "Comet" methods. >> >> 2. XMPP developers describe their experience with BOSH. >> >> 3. Someone from the XMPP Standards Foundation describes the XSF's work >> on standardization of BOSH. >> >> 4. Discuss general requirements in this space. >> >> 5. Discuss whether it might be appropriate for the IETF to work on >> standardization of such a technology. > > So, I see Ian's name on the cc list, so I assume one of these bullets > should be the websockets w3c/whatwg status. Knowing that seems > like it would feed into question 5. Yes, my apologies for the oversight. 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apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCA13A6916 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:31:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DNYMCsXj9c4z for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2EE3A67F7 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:31:01 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,250,1233532800"; d="scan'208";a="145738816" Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Feb 2009 18:31:12 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n1MIVCbE005360; Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:31:12 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (rcdn-fluffy-8711.cisco.com [10.99.9.18]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1MIVAmS006693; Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:31:10 GMT From: Cullen Jennings To: Peter Saint-Andre In-Reply-To: <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> Impp: xmpp:cullenfluffyjennings@jabber.org Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:31:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1509; t=1235327472; x=1236191472; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Suggestions=20for=20AppArea=20meeting |Sender:=20; bh=PR3ESI+LECAqBWjshm69PZ4x29AGjB+IZWYdR/Kd0q8=; b=rjdzuYlyo+RkLR6MqgXPhWyY/tDKn2aLnVVB0ulvNPaF6fKyNws5MdKoVY UXdZjIFE4WeU1UbOxPFYxw1sAIhmFYwMFI9B+fqzRpx/Qwdsd2dWAczZHm05 RblUaCzind; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, Chris.Newman@Sun.COM, hildjj@gmail.com, Ian Hickson , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:31:02 -0000 I'd love to see some discussion on this - sounds good to me. On Feb 20, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Lisa Dusseault wrote: > >> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? > > We (Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto) think it might be valuable > to discuss several of the technologies for bidirectional data > streaming > over HTTP. The three primary technologies we have in mind are BOSH > (used > as the HTTP binding for XMPP), Bayeux, and Web Sockets: > > http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html > > http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html > > http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ > > This topic has been pursued in private emails among various parties > (many cc'd on this message), but it could be useful to have a more > focused, public discussion. Possible agenda items include: > > 1. HTTP developers describe their experience with Bayeux and other > such > "Comet" methods. > > 2. XMPP developers describe their experience with BOSH. > > 3. Someone from the XMPP Standards Foundation describes the XSF's work > on standardization of BOSH. > > 4. Discuss general requirements in this space. > > 5. Discuss whether it might be appropriate for the IETF to work on > standardization of such a technology. Yep, and if no standardization is needed, it might still be nice to have some that documents advice and things to consider when doing this. > > > -- Peter Saint-Andre and Salvatore Loreto > > From Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Mon Feb 23 03:51:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E62F3A6897 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:51:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjD3YpdHu3BJ for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751F23A6801 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id n1NBpBFr013483; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:51:35 -0600 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:51:33 +0200 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:51:32 +0200 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.89]) by nok-am1mhub-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) with mapi; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:51:32 +0100 From: To: , Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:51:28 +0100 Subject: RE: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Thread-Topic: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Thread-Index: AcmTZuYrzfJ6cNDfRtWN8Qd3ycHsOwCOdbug Message-ID: <913D54FAAD0B4F40A6C67321B4091B1B30950CF142@NOK-EUMSG-04.mgdnok.nokia.com> References: <638354206-1235139835-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1441148986-@bxe1011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> In-Reply-To: <638354206-1235139835-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1441148986-@bxe1011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2009 11:51:32.0780 (UTC) FILETIME=[126D3EC0:01C995AD] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:51:26 -0000 Hi Barry, thank you, I am sure there is a lot more virtual worlds than those RPGs. But, that's how much I have heard about these virtual worlds so far, and th= at's the reason why I would like to hear more about these things. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 -----Original Message----- From: Barry Leiba [mailto:barryleiba@gmail.com] On Behalf Of ext Barry Leib= a Sent: 20 February, 2009 16:24 To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Zoltan, virtual worlds are more than RPGs -- Second Life is not about Orcs = and Warcraft. Think of it more as enabling communication and transition be= tween shopping malls, or between the streets of Budapest and those of Beiji= ng. Barry From lisa.dusseault@messagingarchitects.com Mon Feb 23 13:45:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB20528C1D4 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:45:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D4uRDidRaq79 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mplus1.messagingarchitects.com (bastille.gwtools.com [216.94.112.120]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9542F28C1AE for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] lisad@messagingarchitects.com [74.95.2.169] by mplus1.messagingarchitects.com with M+ Extreme Email Engine 2008.4.debug; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:46:01 -0500 X-MailFrom: lisa.dusseault@messagingarchitects.com Message-Id: <1EF09CBC-C45F-4B19-9176-FD7DB49C10A7@messagingarchitects.com> From: Lisa Dusseault To: Dave Cridland In-Reply-To: <2693.1235394182.833089@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:45:53 -0800 References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <2693.1235394182.833089@peirce.dave.cridland.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Mplus-Virus-Scanned: mplusversion: 2008.4.debug ; timestamp: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:46:02 -0500 engine: XCFAntiVirus1 Engine; version: 3881 (20090223)/1082 (20090213)/1089 (20090219)/1.009 (20070910) result: 0 ; ref: none; status: success; error: none engine: XCFAntiVirus2 Engine; version: 5.1.00/5534 result: 0 ; ref: none; status: success; error: none engine: XCFAntiVirus3 Engine; version: 5.07.0001 result: 0 ; ref: str=0001.0A010208.49A31914.005A,ss=1,fgs=0; status: success; error: none X-Mplus-Spam-Scanned: mplusversion: 2008.4.debug ; timestamp: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:46:02 -0500 engine: XCFSPAM1 Engine ; version: Not Available ; level: 0 ref: 0-0-0-3122-c status: success ;error: none engine: XCFSPAM4 Engine ; version: 5.1.2/2009.02.23.04.33.45/2005.02.11.04.44.13/0/0/2007.01.28.16.09.00/2007.02.13.01.23.26/0/0/2009.01.22.21.42.10/2009.02.23.21.01.47/2009.02.23.02.40.00/2009.02.23.21.22.01/0/0/2009.02.14.00.34.21/; level: 1 ref: status: success ;error: none Cc: Chris Newman , General discussion of application-layer protocols X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:45:46 -0000 On Feb 23, 2009, at 5:03 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Thu Feb 19 17:14:36 2009, Lisa Dusseault wrote: >> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? > Not that I'll be there - but I'll be with you in spirit... > > I'd like to think that it'd be worth talking to the other areas and > asking what they'd like those airheaded apps guys to know about. Great, I never knew "Apps AD" stood for "Apps Airhead Director". > I'd therefore humbly suggest that you repeat this "call for > suggestions" on the main IETF list, ietf-politics@ietf.org I dunno about asking this quite so broadly. I could ask the other ADs, who review lots of Apps documents. Actually, discovery is on my own list of things we ought to learn more about so I'll line that up. Lisa --- Scanned by M+ Guardian Messaging Firewall --- Messaging Architects sponsors The Spamhaus Project. From cyrus@daboo.name Mon Feb 23 14:09:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D601C3A6A92 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:09:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wM7LIfZCs2u for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96443A6A75 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C23B11FE3CA; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:09:27 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eCsizcorBVbT; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D4811FE3C0; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:09:22 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Lisa Dusseault , apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting Message-ID: <0C7BFFEFCD7CAB0312E73460@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=888 Cc: Chris Newman X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:09:09 -0000 Hi Lisa, --On February 19, 2009 9:14:36 AM -0800 Lisa Dusseault wrote: > > Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? > > So far, I would like to have MMOX people explain in very general terms > the opportunities for interoperability between virtual worlds. Neal > Stephenson's Metaverse, here we come! I would like to give a quick update about the timezone work being discussed in CalConnect and to report on the Timezone Workshop that was held earlier this month. In particular protocols and registries are being discussed and these will be brought to the IETF for standardization. Note the scope of this is intended to go beyond use of timezones in just calendaring & scheduling but to reach down into the OS level (zoneinfo) etc. 5 - 10 minutes should be enough for me if you can spare the time. -- Cyrus Daboo From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Feb 23 14:14:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1413A6897 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:14:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JqSXNbSKv-Ln for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F603A6817 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.2.155] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:15:01 +0000 Message-ID: <49A31FC9.6070102@isode.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:14:33 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lisa Dusseault Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> In-Reply-To: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Chris Newman , apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:14:51 -0000 Lisa Dusseault wrote: > Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? I am wondering if a short presentation about the current state of SCRAM SASL authentication mechanism and what this means for application layer protocols would be of interest to people? From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Feb 23 14:25:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E9B28C1D0 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:25:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lFd-BIXzmpTJ for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F3D28C1D6 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wrk126.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 99CFD40A68; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:20:05 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <49A32280.4030305@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:26:08 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Macintosh/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <49A31FC9.6070102@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <49A31FC9.6070102@isode.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060107080702000100020402" Cc: Chris Newman , apps-discuss@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:25:54 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060107080702000100020402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Lisa Dusseault wrote: > >> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? > > I am wondering if a short presentation about the current state of SCRAM > SASL authentication mechanism and what this means for application layer > protocols would be of interest to people? I know I would be interested in this. We need an MTI in XMPP and we're hoping that SCRAM is it. :) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms060107080702000100020402 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIWZDCC BzswggYjoAMCAQICASkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQK Ew1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBT aWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAzIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRl IENsaWVudCBDQTAeFw0wODA3MDIyMDQzMThaFw0wOTA3MDIyMDQzMThaMIHCMQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzERMA8GA1UECBMIQ29sb3JhZG8xDzANBgNVBAcTBkRlbnZlcjEiMCAGA1UEChMZWE1Q UCBTdGFuZGFyZHMgRm91bmRhdGlvbjEsMCoGA1UECxMjU3RhcnRDb20gVHJ1c3RlZCBDZXJ0 aWZpY2F0ZSBNZW1iZXIxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlMSEwHwYJKoZIhvcN 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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Feb 23 14:29:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4183328C209 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:29:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.128, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lsRqhIYnecru for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC7A3A67B4 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.2.155] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:29:19 +0000 Message-ID: <49A3232B.1080500@isode.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:28:59 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <49A31FC9.6070102@isode.com> <49A32280.4030305@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <49A32280.4030305@stpeter.im> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Chris Newman , apps-discuss@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:29:04 -0000 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > >>Lisa Dusseault wrote: >> >> >>>Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? >>> >>> >>I am wondering if a short presentation about the current state of SCRAM >>SASL authentication mechanism and what this means for application layer >>protocols would be of interest to people? >> >> >I know I would be interested in this. We need an MTI in XMPP and we're >hoping that SCRAM is it. :) > > Right. I suspect people working on other protocols might be interested in replacing DIGEST-MD5 with SCRAM as a Mandatory-to-implement. Also, SCRAM might be of interest to HTTP folks. From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Feb 23 14:32:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BAC23A6817 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:32:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIV1m3+NXyiU for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dizzyd.com (dizzyd.com [207.210.219.225]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8026B3A6921 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from wrk126.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D5C4040A68; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:27:09 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <49A32429.4070009@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:33:13 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Macintosh/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <49A31FC9.6070102@isode.com> <49A32280.4030305@stpeter.im> <49A3232B.1080500@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <49A3232B.1080500@isode.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050009070503020100000400" Cc: Chris Newman , apps-discuss@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:32:57 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050009070503020100000400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> >> >>> Lisa Dusseault wrote: >>> >>>> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? >>>> >>> I am wondering if a short presentation about the current state of SCRAM >>> SASL authentication mechanism and what this means for application layer >>> protocols would be of interest to people? >>> >> I know I would be interested in this. We need an MTI in XMPP and we're >> hoping that SCRAM is it. :) >> >> > Right. I suspect people working on other protocols might be interested > in replacing DIGEST-MD5 with SCRAM as a Mandatory-to-implement. Especially given that DIGEST-MD5 has already been deprecated. ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms050009070503020100000400 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIWZDCC BzswggYjoAMCAQICASkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQK Ew1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSswKQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBT aWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFydENvbSBDbGFzcyAzIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRl IENsaWVudCBDQTAeFw0wODA3MDIyMDQzMThaFw0wOTA3MDIyMDQzMThaMIHCMQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzERMA8GA1UECBMIQ29sb3JhZG8xDzANBgNVBAcTBkRlbnZlcjEiMCAGA1UEChMZWE1Q UCBTdGFuZGFyZHMgRm91bmRhdGlvbjEsMCoGA1UECxMjU3RhcnRDb20gVHJ1c3RlZCBDZXJ0 aWZpY2F0ZSBNZW1iZXIxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlMSEwHwYJKoZIhvcN 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From dave@cridland.net Tue Feb 24 05:15:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF933A67A4 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:15:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XIT5zDAwSU8z for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (turner.dave.cridland.net [217.155.137.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF973A67A2 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([217.155.137.61]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:04:02 +0000 Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> In-Reply-To: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2693.1235394182.833089@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:03:02 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Lisa Dusseault Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: Chris Newman , General discussion of application-layer protocols X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:15:11 -0000 On Thu Feb 19 17:14:36 2009, Lisa Dusseault wrote: > Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? > > Not that I'll be there - but I'll be with you in spirit... I'd like to think that it'd be worth talking to the other areas and asking what they'd like those airheaded apps guys to know about. I'd therefore humbly suggest that you repeat this "call for suggestions" on the main IETF list, ietf-politics@ietf.org Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From dave@cridland.net Tue Feb 24 05:15:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4AA3A68A7 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:15:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IdRgChXT0TUn for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (turner.dave.cridland.net [217.155.137.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F873A6899 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([217.155.137.61]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:25:56 +0000 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: PIPELINING Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <2693.1235394182.833089@peirce.dave.cridland.net> <1EF09CBC-C45F-4B19-9176-FD7DB49C10A7@messagingarchitects.com> In-Reply-To: <1EF09CBC-C45F-4B19-9176-FD7DB49C10A7@messagingarchitects.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2033.1235471096.609466@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:24:56 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Lisa Dusseault Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Cc: Chris Newman , General discussion of application-layer protocols X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:15:14 -0000 On Mon Feb 23 21:45:53 2009, Lisa Dusseault wrote: > > On Feb 23, 2009, at 5:03 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > >> On Thu Feb 19 17:14:36 2009, Lisa Dusseault wrote: >>> Any suggestions for using the AppArea time on Monday morning? >> Not that I'll be there - but I'll be with you in spirit... >> >> I'd like to think that it'd be worth talking to the other areas >> and asking what they'd like those airheaded apps guys to know >> about. > > Great, I never knew "Apps AD" stood for "Apps Airhead Director". > > That's cunning, you're managing to brand yourself as a director of airheads, instead of merely being one of us. >> I'd therefore humbly suggest that you repeat this "call for >> suggestions" on the main IETF list, ietf-politics@ietf.org > > I dunno about asking this quite so broadly. I could ask the other > ADs, who review lots of Apps documents. Actually, discovery is on > my own list of things we ought to learn more about so I'll line > that up. Asking the other ADs would work, too, of course, but I'm almost more interested in what "the IETF" thinks we ought to be aware of. That said, I'm somewhat scared by the possible results, too. Perhaps the WG chairs list is a happy medium? Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From ian@hixie.ch Fri Feb 20 18:03:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C143A69F1 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:03:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IwDpD4yrsfHx for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from looneymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com (lax-green-bigip-5.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96EFC3A6A20 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hixie.dreamhostps.com (apache2-hixie.hixie.dreamhost.com [208.113.210.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by looneymail-a2.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9282B16D321; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:03:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 02:03:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Ian Hickson To: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: Suggestions for AppArea meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <78D57F6D-6673-42F2-B8A3-B71039D6986F@messagingarchitects.com> <499EF618.6020509@stpeter.im> Content-Language: en-GB-hixie Content-Style-Type: text/css MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:15:38 -0800 Cc: "hildjj@gmail.com" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" , "Chris.Newman@Sun.COM" , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 02:03:42 -0000 On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Ted Hardie wrote: > > > >5. Discuss whether it might be appropriate for the IETF to work on > >standardization of such a technology. > > So, I see Ian's name on the cc list, so I assume one of these bullets > should be the websockets w3c/whatwg status. Knowing that seems like it > would feed into question 5. If the Web Socket protocol continues any further down te standards track, it will do so in the IETF space if at all possible. There is an I-D here: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-02.txt HTH, -- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' From lisa.dusseault@gmail.com Thu Feb 26 12:59:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B007F3A680E for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M8OCG3eELAQy for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from po-out-1718.google.com (po-out-1718.google.com [72.14.252.155]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2BD3A67A7 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by po-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id b23so1742171poe.4 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:59:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NnRAAOAz1R/TrPiz/pGxCtw93vHy/HAEeHfPsAqu1Zk=; b=qhQHSd1e17xxLkVSpk5LtG33B5M4r3C9cFRvmP+I1ZP7gOM0C6GExmWHZI8hqwTryt Um+tuR5c41g49rdL7il2HZdUy7BagH0rPpwaMip4pBeY8UPCnpB2tENJqfPK6NytTrrp Zcnt9Kr+Wh6AnFMzgezrKROykdvksE3t0A1I4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sVZttWJuoDOsOC4eVYPeo/EuQCNS719iCFEQ48HVy1HVt8dynw+4BUS8/hI6RDNDQ9 zlLBPJhIXWM681GsVyT1oHFwIRs0MwYGcRUoM0yVCbZh8mmjFqtPMFMaK6SZZElWfE6+ snvG8Hmwg9VV+kg7lVCzYOjmrBklR/hh+ivxs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.125.1 with SMTP id x1mr822475rvc.72.1235681983589; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:59:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20090226181017.3328E3A6A6D@core3.amsl.com> References: <20090226181017.3328E3A6A6D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:59:43 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: Last Call: draft-crocker-email-arch (Internet Mail Architecture) to Proposed Standard From: Lisa Dusseault To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:59:22 -0000 FYI ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: The IESG Date: Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:10 AM Subject: Last Call: draft-crocker-email-arch (Internet Mail Architecture) to Proposed Standard To: IETF-Announce The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the following document: - 'Internet Mail Architecture ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-03-26. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-email-arch-11.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=11811&rfc_flag=0 The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From lear@cisco.com Thu Feb 26 13:06:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017193A680E for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:06:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.727, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I5El-gb9zGbV for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DF43A696B for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:06:07 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,273,1233532800"; d="scan'208";a="34964720" Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2009 21:06:26 +0000 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n1QL6Q6F023502; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:06:26 +0100 Received: from adsl-247-4-fixip.tiscali.ch (dhcp-10-61-105-59.cisco.com [10.61.105.59]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1QL6QC3023727; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:06:26 GMT Message-ID: <49A70452.9030903@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:06:26 +0100 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090220 Shredder/3.0b3pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lisa Dusseault Subject: Re: Fwd: Last Call: draft-crocker-email-arch (Internet Mail Architecture) to Proposed Standard References: <20090226181017.3328E3A6A6D@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1646; t=1235682386; x=1236546386; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; z=From:=20Eliot=20Lear=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Fwd=3A=20Last=20Call=3A=20draft-crocker -email-arch=20(Internet=20Mail=20Architecture)=0A=20to=20Pro posed=20Standard |Sender:=20; bh=iXg3an5UeJU7o66p2mAZo8oT0J6F6Tj84EGbY0QWWXk=; b=owl+cY4nfc1vTDKa/DjAWhoTyMxLWLNDr4yceCTy2Ow4QPErxXHXThtWVb hOyIC45ty7d8Ge2DIDhZmULKC9cYXnUdI9zG7rlGsAtdJCALiH4C7m1Aepje q8avymP34K; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=lear@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:06:09 -0000 Lisa, I think this document is fairly well written, and I would support its publication. Eliot On 2/26/09 9:59 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote: > FYI > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: The IESG > Date: Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:10 AM > Subject: Last Call: draft-crocker-email-arch (Internet Mail > Architecture) to Proposed Standard > To: IETF-Announce > > > The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider > the following document: > > - 'Internet Mail Architecture ' > as a Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-03-26. Exceptionally, > comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please > retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > The file can be obtained via > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-email-arch-11.txt > > > IESG discussion can be tracked via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=11811&rfc_flag=0 > > The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: > > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > _______________________________________________ > Apps-Discuss mailing list > Apps-Discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss > > From eburger@standardstrack.com Thu Feb 26 17:20:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555153A6832; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:20:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZAgo1-lhwgj; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gs19.inmotionhosting.com (gs19.inmotionhosting.com [205.134.252.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB313A67B4; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [12.235.168.194] (port=24774 helo=[172.16.1.5]) by gs19.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1LcrPJ-0004aW-3Z; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:20:54 -0800 Message-Id: From: Eric Burger To: IETF Discussion In-Reply-To: <49A70452.9030903@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-122--307583572; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-crocker-email-arch (Internet Mail Architecture) to Proposed Standard Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:20:54 -0500 References: <20090226181017.3328E3A6A6D@core3.amsl.com> <49A70452.9030903@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gs19.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 01:20:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail-122--307583572 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More than a +1: it is about time we got this out. For example, we would like to reference a document like this in the LEMONADE series of documents. That said, this particular document is well written, gets the point across, and does the job nicely. Of course, we could hold up publication for another three months, just so it can be an even five years since Dave submitted -00 :-((((( On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Lisa, > > I think this document is fairly well written, and I would support > its publication. > > Eliot > > On 2/26/09 9:59 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote: >> FYI >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: The IESG >> Date: Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:10 AM >> Subject: Last Call: draft-crocker-email-arch (Internet Mail >> Architecture) to Proposed Standard >> To: IETF-Announce >> >> >> The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to >> consider >> the following document: >> >> - 'Internet Mail Architecture ' >> as a Proposed Standard >> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits >> final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to >> the >> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-03-26. Exceptionally, >> comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please >> retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >> >> The file can be obtained via >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-email-arch-11.txt >> >> >> IESG discussion can be tracked via >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=11811&rfc_flag=0 >> >> The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> _______________________________________________ >> Apps-Discuss mailing list >> Apps-Discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Apps-Discuss mailing list > Apps-Discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --Apple-Mail-122--307583572 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGPTCCBjkw ggUhoAMCAQICEC+VK1RLWxrF8KJZDR9k8p8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwga4xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVT MQswCQYDVQQIEwJVVDEXMBUGA1UEBxMOU2FsdCBMYWtlIENpdHkxHjAcBgNVBAoTFVRoZSBVU0VS VFJVU1QgTmV0d29yazEhMB8GA1UECxMYaHR0cDovL3d3dy51c2VydHJ1c3QuY29tMTYwNAYDVQQD Ey1VVE4tVVNFUkZpcnN0LUNsaWVudCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgRW1haWwwHhcNMDgwODEz MDAwMDAwWhcNMDkwODEzMjM1OTU5WjCB4TE1MDMGA1UECxMsQ29tb2RvIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsg LSBQRVJTT05BIE5PVCBWQUxJREFURUQxRjBEBgNVBAsTPVRlcm1zIGFuZCBDb25kaXRpb25zIG9m IHVzZTogaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21vZG8ubmV0L3JlcG9zaXRvcnkxHzAdBgNVBAsTFihjKTIwMDMg Q29tb2RvIExpbWl0ZWQxFDASBgNVBAMTC0VyaWMgQnVyZ2VyMSkwJwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhplYnVy Z2VyQHN0YW5kYXJkc3RyYWNrLmNvbTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMTF RRoA4LgOACMFph0aomRC/UpqoA5C/d6DUTOvTMrYSEqkjwnU4zxDtBcHlcB4AxKAov00MYsUvEU4 loz7BHjfDjv76AIkcwu33VYQbzGmarVnyaXsVb6f/cyRL3fPT0VOVO2tQAEEgwg//CX0jN8Kn2jH uXD/HEvko7cmpL3Pwevf3+DwB61v7ca79PpEZfn/WhaqRKA4uVNPj/JbieeaLo2v/0RJzrEElZK0 pHCqxiD3mQ8ossPkA9fUCSxLlbdMcPU3be5x8vt8Q8mYTXF5Z3d9RZmYrmNkvTQtdzVpfYWr/hgV Xqm9tByOOAR+hoN3FKbubR/OrAHL9yDAd4sCAwEAAaOCAhwwggIYMB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFImCZ33E nSZwAEu0UEh83j2uBG59MB0GA1UdDgQWBBRDWgutb7b8R/L7G3Y3D+molAA3VzAOBgNVHQ8BAf8E BAMCBaAwDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADAgBgNVHSUEGTAXBggrBgEFBQcDBAYLKwYBBAGyMQEDBQIwEQYJ YIZIAYb4QgEBBAQDAgUgMEYGA1UdIAQ/MD0wOwYMKwYBBAGyMQECAQEBMCswKQYIKwYBBQUHAgEW HWh0dHBzOi8vc2VjdXJlLmNvbW9kby5uZXQvQ1BTMIGlBgNVHR8EgZ0wgZowTKBKoEiGRmh0dHA6 Ly9jcmwuY29tb2RvY2EuY29tL1VUTi1VU0VSRmlyc3QtQ2xpZW50QXV0aGVudGljYXRpb25hbmRF bWFpbC5jcmwwSqBIoEaGRGh0dHA6Ly9jcmwuY29tb2RvLm5ldC9VVE4tVVNFUkZpcnN0LUNsaWVu dEF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uYW5kRW1haWwuY3JsMGwGCCsGAQUFBwEBBGAwXjA2BggrBgEFBQcwAoYq aHR0cDovL2NydC5jb21vZG9jYS5jb20vVVROQUFBQ2xpZW50Q0EuY3J0MCQGCCsGAQUFBzABhhho dHRwOi8vb2NzcC5jb21vZG9jYS5jb20wJQYDVR0RBB4wHIEaZWJ1cmdlckBzdGFuZGFyZHN0cmFj ay5jb20wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADggEBAGeBR7NPCvrY3GQoIi49JOuciatY2r4st905Jw1etp6J umFFWlaCBl11tFSclk/3S45B+lUv3SEvG4CEjUByPScprVmCqHR+y8BAQaB/CV+N1y14x3MbhJ+Z 8XDGKeUXuuyGd9w0l3/t/QPid6TRXQjQFrLPFs1IALuNpNiFMHEF/xFbMG1Z2vznR/gSPlePekoZ TqcExIDBNZTBebpZqwAXzPpedNNOclbMLFLWDMOAozVRpkfjI0eiFsk8SF1Ho1Gb9Bx8DeG4peE2 KRVOR9FFnZZgBpFjXYRcglsMOSKCY8HgE+NGvbbqbrMoBV/BlYyxRXwfti71RL9Zs2Cq1eQxggP8 MIID+AIBATCBwzCBrjELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxCzAJBgNVBAgTAlVUMRcwFQYDVQQHEw5TYWx0IExh a2UgQ2l0eTEeMBwGA1UEChMVVGhlIFVTRVJUUlVTVCBOZXR3b3JrMSEwHwYDVQQLExhodHRwOi8v d3d3LnVzZXJ0cnVzdC5jb20xNjA0BgNVBAMTLVVUTi1VU0VSRmlyc3QtQ2xpZW50IEF1dGhlbnRp Y2F0aW9uIGFuZCBFbWFpbAIQL5UrVEtbGsXwolkNH2TynzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIICDTAYBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0wOTAyMjcwMTIwNTRaMCMGCSqGSIb3 DQEJBDEWBBTSVExZuAk8wvoS6uXIKu4R7M7tJzCB1AYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMYHGMIHDMIGuMQswCQYD VQQGEwJVUzELMAkGA1UECBMCVVQxFzAVBgNVBAcTDlNhbHQgTGFrZSBDaXR5MR4wHAYDVQQKExVU aGUgVVNFUlRSVVNUIE5ldHdvcmsxITAfBgNVBAsTGGh0dHA6Ly93d3cudXNlcnRydXN0LmNvbTE2 MDQGA1UEAxMtVVROLVVTRVJGaXJzdC1DbGllbnQgQXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gYW5kIEVtYWlsAhAv lStUS1saxfCiWQ0fZPKfMIHWBgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzGBxqCBwzCBrjELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxCzAJ BgNVBAgTAlVUMRcwFQYDVQQHEw5TYWx0IExha2UgQ2l0eTEeMBwGA1UEChMVVGhlIFVTRVJUUlVT VCBOZXR3b3JrMSEwHwYDVQQLExhodHRwOi8vd3d3LnVzZXJ0cnVzdC5jb20xNjA0BgNVBAMTLVVU Ti1VU0VSRmlyc3QtQ2xpZW50IEF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBFbWFpbAIQL5UrVEtbGsXwolkN H2TynzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAASCAQCRvFGVCRbECxX0oeWVgMsI8F1z2ceNUc4HiTv0EH/uCYoo l6fAX/uXlUT+I4dNW6xDyyF07E9lI6oH7lk6xZ//xnIUKr1WJr/BhZgz7MiQHuusnC96i3XQb5gw YX1dbOoub6V5lESDxgMRGJtvOdP0rxqH2+M66wpe/AxJZ6uC3I4PrdQWIphmSxZF1VEG61SJXRIr FL0Dlu5ZV9v7cDGgqYIrgTStYO2bVT/IAyBSmiaBGZEW3xZ+3KPYG83BLQZ2f5YStTfGQp8qYvPB XtdnAqEQdppFr5JvYc5CnKMdYPZ/BEdFzfBDXT9B+pRowPdySJ/trI4SeQkxkcTm7P8DAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-122--307583572--