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PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0701MB2539C9B14EACDCDD64399E27982B0HE1PR0701MB2539_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Mar 2017 15:05:18.6493 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2539 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SbUhTYRiGfc85247DwevUfJj6o/kRVK6pJRIi9sPoTxhBZR+Qqx3dUjfb MdMwUIswQ7Gwj82aM3VLSxMzVFQyhcQS0lIJP1gxyUWKWZNapuTxTNi/+7mf6324b3hpUtoo kNFaXR5j0Kmy5UIxZUzrDImOvdGdpuxf8U+oWetACcay+1QycaihwU0cQafEiWomW5vPGPYk pYs1LX/viHInZQUT6/+IYvQ4uBz50oD3wrR9kSpHYlqKWxEsd5qE/DCEYOSeZXOgcAUJr0pq CX7zgIBnPQ89wzCCt+2/KO6YECfC6JclAacDcTjcrR7ceE7TJI4Bd+9Fzg7A22HW/UTEI1FQ Nd+NeK0A1+DY5hkKR4BzgT8pwenQPLq4ySMcBq6SpySnSRwMU3NcIK4Dhobe9ySvg+CbY13A ZUP4FoIf5kkPJIeu0hoPdBisa2aCywY4FV5OKjkecCUJU61zIp7Rg8VaLuT1fii7PSTgITMB TbYKz6FQcDdOC/lFpwCulfQjvqYMZsdvenQoOGf6BHxsPczUu4V8NX8YNs5RVSjK5NXI5IWZ vDDe3w2Wnp9CXu8Ca913ckuP9DsIb9+CRM0oiGXYczmZsXEKxqA9z7J6nULH5LWjjc/zumM1 sgt9XDgwgDCN5H6StqyuNKlAlc8W5gwgoEl5oCSjb8OSqFWFVxiD/qzhUjbDDqAQmpIHS+Kb 7CekOFOVx2QxTC5j2NoStK+sGIlsYWvV9Y7aZfp55J+kUm2S4qgvY7b1vKl7Vx396FNAvM3n etXCC7W1Zakof1pfdyFyYtClOT7mkstXP9uL/J0ZGr/xMwqlw2fbscsnF3uXh9scH75WatLL cmLDT0cUOeNG/FL3zRcoUUrL79qD88qgQOxKubpi3zGkSjY2q+UUq1HF7CQNrOo/QgsCyjgD AAA= Archived-At: Cc: "cbor-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [Cbor] Slot requests for IETF98 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:05:29 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0701MB2539C9B14EACDCDD64399E27982B0HE1PR0701MB2539_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, We are starting to plan the CBOR session for the IETF98. If you are interes= ted in having a presentation slot, please send a request to the chairs (cc)= by Tuesday March 14th, with the following details: - Draft - Abstract: A couple of lines about the document or topic. - Objective: Present an idea, get adoption, ask for feedback/reviewers/... - Time: How much time you think you will need See you soon in Chicago, Francesca & Joe --_000_HE1PR0701MB2539C9B14EACDCDD64399E27982B0HE1PR0701MB2539_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

We are starting to plan the CBOR session for the IET= F98. If you are interested in having a presentation slot, please send a req= uest to the chairs (cc) by Tuesday March 14th, with the following details:

 

- Draft

- Abstract: A couple of lines about the document or = topic.

- Objective: Present an idea, get adoption, ask for = feedback/reviewers/...

- Time: How much time you think you will need

 

See you soon in Chicago,

Francesca & Joe

--_000_HE1PR0701MB2539C9B14EACDCDD64399E27982B0HE1PR0701MB2539_-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 15:57:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B9B12964D; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 15:55:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.46.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148858532461.15846.12073321592967386389.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:55:24 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: cbor@ietf.org, aamelnikov@fastmail.fm Subject: [Cbor] cbor - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 23:55:25 -0000 Dear Francesca Palombini, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. cbor Session 1 (1:00:00) Thursday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500 Room Name: Zurich B size: 100 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Francesca Palombini Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: artarea dispatch core ace anima t2trg 6tisch dtn Second Priority: saag webpush sacm lpwan httpbis dots lwig roll Third Priority: detnet dnsop appsawg People who must be present: Alexey Melnikov Joe Hildebrand Francesca Palombini Resources Requested: Projector in room Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Mar 3 16:25:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C65612706D; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:25:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id frFQV70myTzd; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03E0B128AB0; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:24:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v240Oj9j005097; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 01:24:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vZmyj0KjVzDJ6h; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 01:24:45 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <880044A0-E3F0-436D-BB45-6751A01EDB6B@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 01:24:44 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 510279884.362881-152b94dac84d17b5022d5bfde5097d7b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <880044A0-E3F0-436D-BB45-6751A01EDB6B@tzi.org> To: ace@ietf.org, "core@ietf.org WG" , cose@ietf.org, cbor@ietf.org, t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF98: FINAL AGENDA X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 00:25:02 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the "FINAL" AGENDA for IETF98. Remember that agenda definitions are never really "FINAL"... "While this is considered the final agenda for printing, changes may be made to the agenda up until and during the meeting. Updates will be reflected on the web versions of the agenda." Compared to the draft agenda, this has mostly room changes. v6ops moved around, and tsvarea got extended to an almost four-hour meeting. All times are CDT (UTC-0500) -- yes, the US will be on DST already for a couple of weeks, while Europe moves over right on Mar 26th. (The browser timezone function still is not yet reinstated on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten SUNDAY, March 26, 2017 0900-1700 IRTF*** icnrg, with some t2trg-related items on the = agenda MONDAY, March 27, 2017 0900-1130 Morning Session I Zurich A ART dispatch Dispatch WG Zurich D INT homenet Home Networking WG Zurich C SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Vevey 1/2 IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Zurich A OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Zurich B RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Zurich G RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Zurich E/F TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Zurich A SEC tokbind Token Binding WG Zurich E/F TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1710-1810 Afternoon Session III Zurich E/F GEN wugh WGs Using GitHub BOF Zurich D INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Montreux 3 SEC curdle CURves, Deprecating and a Little more = Encryption WG Zurich C SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Vevey 1/2 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, March 28, 2017 0900-1130 Morning Session I Zurich C INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Zurich D IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Zurich E/F SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG 1300-1430 Afternoon Session I Zurich C ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Zurich D INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Zurich A RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG 1450-1620 Afternoon Session II Zurich G ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Zurich E/F SEC *** teep A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution = Environment Enablement BOF 1640-1840 Afternoon Session III Zurich B INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Zurich E/F TSV taps Transport Services WG WEDNESDAY, March 29, 2017 0900-1130 Morning Session I Zurich A INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Zurich C INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Zurich A OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Montreux 3 TSV tcpinc TCP Increased Security WG THURSDAY, March 30, 2017 0900-1130 Morning Session I Zurich D INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Zurich C IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Zurich E/F RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Vevey 1/2 TSV quic QUIC WG 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I Zurich B ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Zurich G SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG Zurich A TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1520-1720 Afternoon Session II Zurich D SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Zurich B RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG FRIDAY, March 31, 2017 0900-1130 Morning Session I Vevey 1/2 ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Zurich E/F INT ipwave IP Wireless Access in Vehicular = Environments WG Zurich A OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Zurich C SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1150-1320 Afternoon Session I Zurich C ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG From nobody Mon Mar 13 12:40:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1A7129406 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:40:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j5Q6A9BhQAjr for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5356A129481 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DJV1gU026587 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:31:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vhnz949ykzDGxf; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:31:01 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511126260.687422-91350a7ba113f888ec47cd22075a8388 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:31:00 +0100 Message-Id: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:40:49 -0000 We have written a straw man draft for a few CBOR tags that would allow = more information in a time than is provided in tags 0 and 1, and would = also allow representing durations and time periods. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-time-tag-00 Note that the CBOR WG is not currently chartered to work on documents = like these, but that does not have to stop any WG member from sending = comments, even on this list :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Mar 14 14:47:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF4129B63 for ; 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[50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 89sm605067ioj.17.2017.03.14.15.30.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT) To: glenn_engel@keysight.com, cabo@tzi.org, cbor@ietf.org References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <599873a6-7e28-e575-c44b-24758ba68dfd@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:30:49 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:30:48 -0000 On 15/03/2017 10:47, glenn_engel@keysight.com wrote: > This looks like a good start. >=20 > I would recommend discarding UI and presentation elements such as timez= one, location, and presentation calendar. These "interpretive" elements = would perhaps be better served with additional meta data sent along with = a timestamp in an application specific manner. =20 I can't quite agree with that for the timezone. A time without a timezone= is not meaningful, not even locally. I don't mean the *name* of the timezone, bu= t the offset from UTC (or whatever other time scale is indicated). Either that or requ= ire that the time is always sent as UTC(or TAI or whatever). If that's intended, the t= ext probably needs to say it explicitly. Brian > This would keep the proposal laser focused on how to represent a higher= precision time and meta data associated with the time value such as prec= ision and accuracy. >=20 > Why stop at -12 for higher precision? A 64 bit value can represent 10= ^-18 fractional seconds. >=20 > The traditional meaning of period in my mind is a duration specified as= fields (years, days, minute etc). I would suggest just supporting Durat= ion for this proposal. >=20 >=20 > Could the text for Duration be as simple as Time >=20 > A Duration represents the difference in time between two Time v= alues. It is encoded in the same manner as Time with the resulting value= representing an offset from an arbitrary start point rather than relativ= e to a standards specified epoch. =20 >=20 > Alternatively, could a duration simply be a Time with Key-1 set to "1" = to indicate Duration (no time scale).=20 >=20 > -- > Glenn >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 12:31 PM > To: cbor@ietf.org > Subject: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period >=20 > We have written a straw man draft for a few CBOR tags that would allow = more information in a time than is provided in tags 0 and 1, and would al= so allow representing durations and time periods. >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-time-tag-00 >=20 > Note that the CBOR WG is not currently chartered to work on documents l= ike these, but that does not have to stop any WG member from sending comm= ents, even on this list :-) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 14 17:37:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D5613172C for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:37:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=keysighttech.onmicrosoft.com 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dGVuDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Xw0KPiBDQk9SIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBDQk9SQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY2Jvcg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBDQk9SIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBDQk9SQGlldGYu b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY2Jvcg0KPiANCg0K From nobody Wed Mar 15 05:02:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC710129C2F for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mKWyTiAv1Mnl for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D561C129C2A for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:01:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2FC1h7w003944; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:01:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vjqvp6qHczDHnS; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:01:42 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DB99@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:01:41 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511272101.649353-1aa7d0ea732c061f4eea5f0b87763235 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D038A1F-05BD-4786-B75C-85833CCF796D@tzi.org> References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> <599873a6-7e28-e575-c44b-24758ba68dfd@gmail.com> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DB99@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> To: glenn_engel@keysight.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:02:49 -0000 On 15 Mar 2017, at 01:36, glenn_engel@keysight.com wrote: >=20 > I think we may be in agreement as this proposal specifies time encoded = as UTC or TAI via Key -1 which defaults to UTC (as does CBOR tag 1).=20 Right, as written, the =E2=80=9Chard time=E2=80=9D is always in a = globally referenced time scale, and this is probably also a good = criteria to use for future registrations for key -1. > For our applications we've removed all references to time zone when = shuttling data around. [=E2=80=A6] > This allows use of timezone to be a local application presentation = issue (I'm in Greenland and want to see a timestamp - show it in my = local timezone). =20 That depends. The security event =E2=80=9CSomeone opened a Window at = 03:00 UTC=E2=80=9D has quite different implication whether that happened = in the German timezone or in the Korean one. This is an example of =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D= information that may be delivered with a timestamp. > If I want to see the local time where a timestamp was created I would = be best served by including GPS coordinates (and perhaps timezone) as = independent but coupled meta data. That leaves the task of looking up timezones to the recipient. That is in many, but not all cases quite OK. The design question really is whether time-related information should be = attachable to the timestamp (and, yes, that might even include GPS = coordinates) or should always be part of the surrounding context. The = current draft takes the stance that there is common =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80= =9D information that could be stored with the timestamp. For timezone, = there is precedent both in ISO 8601 (which, however, indicates the = translated local time with the timezone, which we feel is less useful) = and POSIX (e.g., tm_isdst). Also, for future times, it may be useful to know what the originator of = the time value is assuming are going to be the tz/dst values in that = future. (This doesn=E2=80=99t solve the problem of =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99ll= meet in Chicago at 10 AM=E2=80=9D, though; maybe ISO8601 is what you = want to use for that.) We=E2=80=99ve yet to align the draft with other important sources of = wisdom such as = http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_63_0/doc/html/date_time/posix_time.html, = so this is all definitely subject to discussion.=20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 15 05:13:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E206D12F26C for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j2_YXpIEONo5 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74CC612F258 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2FCDRwG012474; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.124] (p5DCCCDC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.204.205.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vjr9M2jrvzDHnm; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:27 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:26 +0100 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 511272806.003805-e58c5bf25e3e0cdaf348d6676067d8da Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> To: glenn_engel@keysight.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:13:32 -0000 > On 14 Mar 2017, at 22:47, glenn_engel@keysight.com wrote: >=20 > Why stop at -12 for higher precision? A 64 bit value can represent = 10^-18 fractional seconds. Does Keysight have an instrument that could take advantage of that = (light advances 300 nm in 1 fs)? (As the table indicates, the current set was a reaction to formats that = are in good use, but I=E2=80=99m sure interested in planning for = advances in this space.) > The traditional meaning of period in my mind is a duration specified = as fields (years, days, minute etc). I would suggest just supporting = Duration for this proposal. Period is anchored in time, duration is not. We could simply leave to representation of periods as pairs of time = points (or of duration and time point) to the application. But then = there is RFC 3339... > Could the text for Duration be as simple as Time >=20 > A Duration represents the difference in time between two Time = values. It is encoded in the same manner as Time with the resulting = value representing an offset from an arbitrary start point rather than = relative to a standards specified epoch. =20 >=20 > Alternatively, could a duration simply be a Time with Key-1 set to "1" = to indicate Duration (no time scale).=20 The representation is not going to be very different (obviously, an = epoch-based time point is a duration from the epoch). But the semantics = is quite different, so it may make sense to have a separate tag, with = essentially the same structure. (Also, there is RFC 3339 again.) (Periods are a bit different from durations also in that knowledge of = the time points means that you know whether the underlying time scale is = monotonic during the period. E.g., the period from 23:59:59Z on Dec 31. = 2016 to 00:00:00Z on Jan 1, 2017 was rather different from the similar = period a year earlier.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 15 05:13:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B10129C73 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xGpfkF5TUF23 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innersmtp.mail2.i-styledesign.de (mail2.i-styledesign.de [178.63.83.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E188E12F26C for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by innersmtp.mail2.i-styledesign.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4131C1F58; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail2.i-styledesign.de Received: from innersmtp.mail2.i-styledesign.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.host10.i-styledesign.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uLReOwZ8bSuF; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from [172.25.100.149] (aftr-37-201-193-32.unity-media.net [37.201.193.32]) (Authenticated sender: me@noctarius.com) by innersmtp.mail2.i-styledesign.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5220E1C2E98; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:37 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3271\)) From: Christoph Engelbert In-Reply-To: <3D038A1F-05BD-4786-B75C-85833CCF796D@tzi.org> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:13:36 +0100 Cc: glenn_engel@keysight.com, cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> <599873a6-7e28-e575-c44b-24758ba68dfd@gmail.com> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DB99@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> <3D038A1F-05BD-4786-B75C-85833CCF796D@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3271) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:13:50 -0000 Hey guys, I think Carsten brought up a very valid point. There are timestamps that = need additional information to be useful. Coming back to the window = example, a security alert might only be kicked off if the 3am was in the = window=E2=80=99s local timezone, it doesn=E2=80=99t matter what timezone = the viewer of the information is in. The question though is, does that timezone information need to be stored = in the time value itself? Yes and no, it sometimes might be useful, = maybe necessary, but sometimes not. As far as it seems to me, I could = present both versions with the current proposal. Do I miss something? Chris > On 15. Mar 2017, at 13:01, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 15 Mar 2017, at 01:36, glenn_engel@keysight.com wrote: >>=20 >> I think we may be in agreement as this proposal specifies time = encoded as UTC or TAI via Key -1 which defaults to UTC (as does CBOR tag = 1).=20 >=20 > Right, as written, the =E2=80=9Chard time=E2=80=9D is always in a = globally referenced time scale, and this is probably also a good = criteria to use for future registrations for key -1. >=20 >> For our applications we've removed all references to time zone when = shuttling data around. [=E2=80=A6] >> This allows use of timezone to be a local application presentation = issue (I'm in Greenland and want to see a timestamp - show it in my = local timezone). =20 >=20 > That depends. The security event =E2=80=9CSomeone opened a Window at = 03:00 UTC=E2=80=9D has quite different implication whether that happened = in the German timezone or in the Korean one. > This is an example of =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80= =9D information that may be delivered with a timestamp. >=20 >> If I want to see the local time where a timestamp was created I would = be best served by including GPS coordinates (and perhaps timezone) as = independent but coupled meta data. >=20 > That leaves the task of looking up timezones to the recipient. > That is in many, but not all cases quite OK. >=20 > The design question really is whether time-related information should = be attachable to the timestamp (and, yes, that might even include GPS = coordinates) or should always be part of the surrounding context. The = current draft takes the stance that there is common =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80= =9D information that could be stored with the timestamp. For timezone, = there is precedent both in ISO 8601 (which, however, indicates the = translated local time with the timezone, which we feel is less useful) = and POSIX (e.g., tm_isdst). >=20 > Also, for future times, it may be useful to know what the originator = of the time value is assuming are going to be the tz/dst values in that = future. (This doesn=E2=80=99t solve the problem of =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99ll= meet in Chicago at 10 AM=E2=80=9D, though; maybe ISO8601 is what you = want to use for that.) >=20 > We=E2=80=99ve yet to align the draft with other important sources of = wisdom such as = http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_63_0/doc/html/date_time/posix_time.html, = so this is all definitely subject to discussion.=20 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Wed Mar 15 05:25:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C4113010C for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wP9jO_fnwgat for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5703E130154 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 05:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-2ubuntu2.1) with ESMTP id v2FCPdEk012863 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:25:40 +0100 Received: from [134.102.161.4] (134.102.161.4) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:25:34 +0100 To: References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> <599873a6-7e28-e575-c44b-24758ba68dfd@gmail.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:25:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <599873a6-7e28-e575-c44b-24758ba68dfd@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.161.4] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:25:47 -0000 Hello all, I'll just limit my comment to "time zone designation" vs "effective time zone offset". There are - as expected - different opinions about this. On one hand, the tz label leaves it up the consumer to find out which offset that actually was at that point in past time (timestamp). "Right now" (aka the most recent past time) is a perfect example: the us switched to DST already - the eu did not. In consequence I was an hour late yesterday and missed a call. "time zone designation" did not help me, an "effective time zone offset would have" (assuming no complementary sources of context data). Then again, the geographic limits of tz can be... "in dispute". Let's say.... they have to be assumed to be in constant flux due to politics. Also, highlighting just the offset does not imply if there will be a change to DST in the corresponding tz (e.g. not every us state switches into DST, if my memory serves me well), and it therefore does not enable a deterministic inference of the corresponding tz. I.e. as with most time/duration/calender related context attribute, I would simply allow to include the one desired (XOR, OR and AND) in a timestamp as "optional context attributes". Because, what would be the reason not to (and there might be one. I just did not see a compelling one, yet - which might change at any... future time)? Cheers, Henk On 03/14/2017 11:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 15/03/2017 10:47, glenn_engel@keysight.com wrote: >> This looks like a good start. >> >> I would recommend discarding UI and presentation elements such as timezone, location, and presentation calendar. These "interpretive" elements would perhaps be better served with additional meta data sent along with a timestamp in an application specific manner. > > I can't quite agree with that for the timezone. A time without a timezone is not > meaningful, not even locally. I don't mean the *name* of the timezone, but the offset > from UTC (or whatever other time scale is indicated). Either that or require that the > time is always sent as UTC(or TAI or whatever). If that's intended, the text probably > needs to say it explicitly. > > Brian > >> This would keep the proposal laser focused on how to represent a higher precision time and meta data associated with the time value such as precision and accuracy. >> >> Why stop at -12 for higher precision? A 64 bit value can represent 10^-18 fractional seconds. >> >> The traditional meaning of period in my mind is a duration specified as fields (years, days, minute etc). I would suggest just supporting Duration for this proposal. >> >> >> Could the text for Duration be as simple as Time >> >> A Duration represents the difference in time between two Time values. It is encoded in the same manner as Time with the resulting value representing an offset from an arbitrary start point rather than relative to a standards specified epoch. >> >> Alternatively, could a duration simply be a Time with Key-1 set to "1" to indicate Duration (no time scale). >> >> -- >> Glenn >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CBOR [mailto:cbor-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann >> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 12:31 PM >> To: cbor@ietf.org >> Subject: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period >> >> We have written a straw man draft for a few CBOR tags that would allow more information in a time than is provided in tags 0 and 1, and would also allow representing durations and time periods. >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-time-tag-00 >> >> Note that the CBOR WG is not currently chartered to work on documents like these, but that does not have to stop any WG member from sending comments, even on this list :-) >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >> > > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > From nobody Wed Mar 15 08:07:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22077131637 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTeMUkCn1J42 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x241.google.com (mail-it0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A27BF131610 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x241.google.com with SMTP id r141so3371629ita.1 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:07:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1tQT9+D/RMv3/H792VyzeE7HSgZalS453hHEXUxf4FA=; b=Uf4rSVP1dhR56TkqzlxVbvVx+lOf73hGeM+w+fciCrHU39cwwgp2V6RxDIv/DYUOhS 9QGET5Qa1xoh5Bj/un2PNJWJHshBodiXGH8f9qWdM68tzdzJRqSBOynwtaGWcc1qLgOP HOXYYtYOJyeUBcoZ9ef+rqdHRDXfD4p8U30BtQhGSAkX3ICtTvClGGwKko/6sbndEyd7 OKXjHnauqJ9dEDKpdWUgtbilBHXvXQ5rCDBvINQMkn0fITYWRvhvqJ3yBT6lBSYj7nZ2 NfDbidSF/1l9t+ceLsbf2SMKVjWfHiQH4qSgbgNp6dKkLpVkqrmp/Be+IzVtKHbOPnl4 s5Mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1tQT9+D/RMv3/H792VyzeE7HSgZalS453hHEXUxf4FA=; b=iUsrkyk7eo4x3Cq5a94Y6Vcg0WXTXy6YwxEWb76GUuEpa4+rLwW684BrGUnGppqbL6 p9DVTMzJhQEABg7yEX01fLzNC5n2x6o8pKfiBB8MMgba9AgekHd9QCOvv7SsI4k5OCIU PaXi0OGEwoG1skyMgLiNUo0mdu996JVhBV9o5fhvjbvmksD3hF2TCbdJ8YlhGO3X1Xg/ ypPtLQvv9mb1ZFxIids5ZM0K6/HDFgBVsnFjvWmr5iMs0siZyFKWJmqy2txzjEZ0mUmf FM6LxsVNvAmvjKO0ueui+l+m9rxR9Yt5k/vBi0sufto8shQmtBI/3uFOvdwS6tbT6Y/W GynQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2+crASglgQbBLKEIm7dUwc5OPYowg/EHePqwj1V65VWxAUTRkPlve3sZaTrb7yoQ== X-Received: by 10.36.170.68 with SMTP id y4mr5389213iti.7.1489590454944; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j13sm1596723ioe.41.2017.03.15.08.07.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Mar 2017 08:07:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann , glenn_engel@keysight.com References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DACE@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> <599873a6-7e28-e575-c44b-24758ba68dfd@gmail.com> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F3060DB99@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> <3D038A1F-05BD-4786-B75C-85833CCF796D@tzi.org> Cc: cbor@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <0ca70c1c-a2b1-c256-e0a0-8d7f2d70ac6d@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:07:40 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3D038A1F-05BD-4786-B75C-85833CCF796D@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 15:07:48 -0000 On 16/03/2017 01:01, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 15 Mar 2017, at 01:36, glenn_engel@keysight.com wrote: >> >> I think we may be in agreement as this proposal specifies time encoded= as UTC or TAI via Key -1 which defaults to UTC (as does CBOR tag 1).=20 >=20 > Right, as written, the =E2=80=9Chard time=E2=80=9D is always in a globa= lly referenced time scale, and this is probably also a good criteria to u= se for future registrations for key -1. I now understand that to be your intention but I did *not* understand tha= t on my first reading of the text. Can you make it explicit somehwere, perhaps in= the description of key -1: Note that the time indicated by Key 1, 2, 4 or 5 is given in the indicate= d or implicit time scale with no offset. Regards Brian >=20 >> For our applications we've removed all references to time zone when sh= uttling data around. [=E2=80=A6] >> This allows use of timezone to be a local application presentation iss= ue (I'm in Greenland and want to see a timestamp - show it in my local ti= mezone). =20 >=20 > That depends. The security event =E2=80=9CSomeone opened a Window at 0= 3:00 UTC=E2=80=9D has quite different implication whether that happened i= n the German timezone or in the Korean one. > This is an example of =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80= =9D information that may be delivered with a timestamp. >=20 >> If I want to see the local time where a timestamp was created I would = be best served by including GPS coordinates (and perhaps timezone) as ind= ependent but coupled meta data. >=20 > That leaves the task of looking up timezones to the recipient. > That is in many, but not all cases quite OK. >=20 > The design question really is whether time-related information should b= e attachable to the timestamp (and, yes, that might even include GPS coor= dinates) or should always be part of the surrounding context. The curren= t draft takes the stance that there is common =E2=80=9Ccontext=E2=80=9D i= nformation that could be stored with the timestamp. For timezone, there= is precedent both in ISO 8601 (which, however, indicates the translated = local time with the timezone, which we feel is less useful) and POSIX (e.= g., tm_isdst). >=20 > Also, for future times, it may be useful to know what the originator of= the time value is assuming are going to be the tz/dst values in that fut= ure. (This doesn=E2=80=99t solve the problem of =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99ll m= eet in Chicago at 10 AM=E2=80=9D, though; maybe ISO8601 is what you want = to use for that.) >=20 > We=E2=80=99ve yet to align the draft with other important sources of wi= sdom such as http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_63_0/doc/html/date_time/posi= x_time.html, so this is all definitely subject to discussion.=20 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > . >=20 From nobody Wed Mar 15 10:38:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC27913175B for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Ip=[192.25.5.39]; Helo=[mail.keysight.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR17MB1591 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:38:00 -0000 DQo+PiANCj4+IFdoeSBzdG9wIGF0IC0xMiBmb3IgaGlnaGVyIHByZWNpc2lvbj8gICBBIDY0IGJp dCB2YWx1ZSBjYW4gcmVwcmVzZW50IDEwXi0xOCBmcmFjdGlvbmFsIHNlY29uZHMuDQo+RG9lcyBL ZXlzaWdodCBoYXZlIGFuIGluc3RydW1lbnQgdGhhdCBjb3VsZCB0YWtlIGFkdmFudGFnZSBvZiB0 aGF0IChsaWdodCBhZHZhbmNlcyAzMDAgbm0gaW4gMSBmcyk/DQo+IChBcyB0aGUgdGFibGUgaW5k aWNhdGVzLCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBzZXQgd2FzIGEgcmVhY3Rpb24gdG8gZm9ybWF0cyB0aGF0IGFy ZSBpbiBnb29kIHVzZSwgYnV0IEnigJltIHN1cmUgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBpbiBwbGFubmluZyBmb3Ig YWR2YW5jZXMgaW4gdGhpcyBzcGFjZS4pDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgaXQncyBhIG1hdHRlciBvZiBwbGFu bmluZyBmb3IgdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4gICBUaGVyZSBhcmUgbmV0d29yayBjYXJkcyB0aGF0IHRpbWVz dGFtcCBpbiAyNTAgcGljb3NlY29uZCByZXNvbHV0aW9uLiAgS2V5c2lnaHQgc2VsbHMgb3B0aWNh bCBtb2R1bGF0aW9uIGFuYWx5emVycyB0aGF0IG1lYXN1cmUgMVRiL3Mgc2lnbmFscyBzbyAxMF4t MTUgaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgaXMgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB0byBzZWUgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4g IA0KDQpSZWdhcmRpbmcgdGltZXpvbmUsIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGRvY3VtZW50IGZvciBLZXkgLTcg c2F5cyBpdCBpcyB3aGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSAiYmVzdCBmaXQgZm9yIGRpc3BsYXlpbmcgdG8g aHVtYW5zIi4gIFRoaXMgaXMgdmVyeSBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBkZXBlbmRlbnQuICBJIG1heSB3YW50 IGl0IGluIG15IG93biBsb2NhbCB0aW1lIHNvIEkgY2FuIGdldCBhIHF1aWNrIG1lYXN1cmUgb2Yg aG93IGxvbmcgYWdvIGl0IGhhcHBlbmVkLiAgQXMgbWVudGlvbmVkIGZvciB0aGUgd2luZG93IHNl bnNvciBldmVudCwgdGhlIG9wZXJhdG9yIG1pZ2h0IHdhbnQgdG8ga25vdyB0aGUgbG9jYWwgdGlt ZSB3aGVyZSB0aGUgZXZlbnQgb2NjdXJyZWQgdG8gZGV0ZXJtaW5lIHRoZSByZXNwb25zZSBhY3Rp b24uICBJZiBJJ20gZGlzdHJpYnV0aW5nIGEgdGltZXN0YW1wIHRvIGFsaWduIHJhZGlvIHRlbGVz Y29wZXMgaW4gZGlmZmVyZW50IHJlZ2lvbnMgdG8gbWFrZSBhIGNvaGVyZW50IG1lYXN1cmVtZW50 IGF0IGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgdGltZSwgSSBkb27igJl0IHdhbnQgYSB0aW1lem9uZSBhdCBhbGwgYmVj YXVzZSBlYWNoIHJlY2lwaWVudCBtYXkgd2FudCB0byBkaXNwbGF5IGl0IGZvciBodW1hbnMgaW4g dGhlaXIgb3duIGxvY2FsIHRpbWUuICAgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgbWVhbmluZyBhbmQgdXNlIG9mIHRp bWV6b25lIGlzIHNvIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIGRlcGVuZGVudCB0aGF0IGl0IHNob3VsZCBiZSBzZXBh cmF0ZWQgZnJvbSB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgdGltZXN0YW1wIGl0c2VsZi4gIA0K DQotLQ0KR2xlbm4NCg== From nobody Sat Mar 25 09:49:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352A5129496 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 09:49:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F6ynu5vkqXLc for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 09:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52B121294A9 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 09:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2PGnQK6008854 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 17:49:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from t2001067c0370012835f4e283885fe364.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c0370012835f4e283885fe364.v6.meeting.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:35f4:e283:885f:e364]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vr5qB1gCyzDHFm; Sat, 25 Mar 2017 17:49:26 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_42ACA2A1-BAA2-434F-BB2A-821E04B796EA" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512153363.430807-8ac3b746baf31346637cbad44034123b Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 11:49:23 -0500 Message-Id: References: To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Fwd: [cbor-wg/cddl] Describe how to use CDDL with JSON (#1) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 16:49:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_42ACA2A1-BAA2-434F-BB2A-821E04B796EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have started collecting issues with the CDDL spec that people here at = IETF98 bring up. You may want to =E2=80=9Cwatch=E2=80=9D the repo https://github.com/cbor-wg/cddl = If you want to learn about the editorial ones. I=E2=80=99m not sure what the chairs will tell us about the github = procedures for this WG, but for now I=E2=80=99ll assume we want to have = technical discussion of the CDDL spec on the cbor@ietf.org = mailing list as well. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: cabo > > Subject: [cbor-wg/cddl] Describe how to use CDDL with JSON (#1) > Date: 25 March 2017 at 11:43:18 -0500 > To: cbor-wg/cddl > > Cc: Subscribed > > Reply-To: cbor-wg/cddl = > >=20 > Today, the spec is written for CBOR, and just implies that CDDL can = also be used with JSON. > Since that is happening = , add an appendix that = makes the information explicit which parts of CDDL remain unused with = JSON. >=20 > Initial attempt of a list: >=20 > CBOR tags > byte-string constants (h'beef' etc.) > prelude elements that based on major types #2 and #6 (bstr/bytes, all = the tags from tdate to cbor-any) > When mapping the JSON data model (which is not distinguishing integer = from floating-point numbers) to that of CBOR, numbers with a zero = fractional part become integers. Details of this may also need some = additional information. Probably also point to I-JSON (RFC7493). >=20 > =E2=80=94 > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub = , or mute the thread = . >=20 > = = = --Apple-Mail=_42ACA2A1-BAA2-434F-BB2A-821E04B796EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I have started collecting issues with the CDDL spec that = people here at IETF98 bring up.
You may want to = =E2=80=9Cwatch=E2=80=9D the repo


If you want to learn about the = editorial ones.

I=E2=80=99m not sure what the chairs will tell us about the = github procedures for this WG, but for now I=E2=80=99ll assume we want = to have technical discussion of the CDDL spec on the cbor@ietf.org mailing list = as well.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: = [cbor-wg/cddl] = Describe how to use CDDL with JSON (#1)
Date: = 25 March 2017 at 11:43:18 = -0500
To: = cbor-wg/cddl <cddl@noreply.github.com>
Cc: Subscribed <subscribed@noreply.github.com>

Today, the spec is written for CBOR, and just implies that = CDDL can also be used with JSON.
Since that is happening, add an appendix that makes the information = explicit which parts of CDDL remain unused with JSON.

Initial attempt of a list:

  • CBOR tags
  • byte-string constants (h'beef' etc.)
  • prelude elements that based on major types #2 and #6 = (bstr/bytes, all the tags from tdate to cbor-any)

When mapping the JSON data model (which is not = distinguishing integer from floating-point numbers) to that of CBOR, = numbers with a zero fractional part become integers. Details of this = may also need some additional information. Probably also point to = I-JSON (RFC7493).

=E2=80=94
You are receiving this because you = are subscribed to this thread.
Reply to this email = directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the = thread.3D""

=

= --Apple-Mail=_42ACA2A1-BAA2-434F-BB2A-821E04B796EA-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 16:29:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C46A1286CA for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ooe5bnVI5I2E for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE6C91296C3 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2RNSsRu012467 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 01:28:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.136.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vsVbB0kb8zDHyQ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 01:28:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AE7D15E0-51CE-48E4-9D8F-C4F9C97B9C35" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512350132.107491-81d860557349d3e32840473cb32809f0 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:28:52 -0500 Message-Id: <9214C5DC-F298-4CC9-A480-E39E5BF6D764@tzi.org> References: To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Fwd: CDDL tool doesn't recognize h'hexstring'? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:29:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AE7D15E0-51CE-48E4-9D8F-C4F9C97B9C35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I just got this interesting feedback (and permission to forward it to = the list). Welcome to the CBOR WG, Jeffrey! (Jeffrey also got me to finally support byte strings constants in the = CDDL tool. But there certainly still is a lot of work to do with the tool; see = further below.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Jeffrey Yasskin > > Subject: Re: CDDL tool doesn't recognize h'hexstring'? > Date: 27 March 2017 at 17:23:36 -0500 > To: Carsten Bormann > >=20 > My CBOR patch is now in https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36 = . I noticed two extra = things while completing the patch: >=20 > 5. Use of COSE_Sign could benefit from the generics you ponder in = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cbor-cddl-10#append= ix-B.1 = . In particular, uses are likely to want to specify the bytes = stored in the payload, and to extend the protected and unprotected maps. = They may also want to constrain the use of Generic_Headers in the = protected and unprotected maps, but it's less obvious how to accomplish = that. > 6. Some sort of namespacing might be helpful so that a reference to = the 'Headers' type in the COSE spec isn't ambiguous with a local = 'Headers' or a type of that name in some other spec. >=20 > Also, if you're collecting uses of CDDL, WebAuthn is also using it: = https://w3c.github.io/webauthn/#sec-attestation-data = >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 > [=E2=80=A6] >=20 > Other problems I've found so far are: > The non-BMP emoji cause parse errors, in either comments or = 'bytestrings'. > json-generate tries to turn 0xF0 into a UTF-8 character and fails, = instead of noticing that it's part of a larger sequence. > generate can't handle .within. A simple fix might be to just ignore = the right side of .within. > It's odd that `{stuff} .within {otherstuff}` fails to parse, since the = braces should provide as much grouping as parentheses, but I haven't = checked the CDDL grammar to see if it's forbidden there too. > I can reduce these if you need. >=20 > Thanks, > Jeffrey --Apple-Mail=_AE7D15E0-51CE-48E4-9D8F-C4F9C97B9C35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I just got this interesting feedback (and permission to = forward it to the list).

Welcome to the CBOR WG, Jeffrey!

(Jeffrey also got me to finally support = byte strings constants in the CDDL tool.
But there = certainly still is a lot of work to do with the tool; see further = below.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Begin forwarded = message:

From: = Jeffrey Yasskin <jyasskin@google.com>
Subject: = Re: CDDL tool = doesn't recognize h'hexstring'?
Date: = 27 March 2017 at 17:23:36 = -0500
To: = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>

My CBOR patch is now in https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36. I noticed = two extra things while completing the patch:

5. Use of COSE_Sign could benefit from = the generics you ponder in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cbor-cdd= l-10#appendix-B.1. In particular, uses are likely to want to specify = the bytes stored in the payload, and to extend the protected and = unprotected maps. They may also want to constrain the use of = Generic_Headers in the protected and unprotected maps, but it's less = obvious how to accomplish that.
6. Some sort of = namespacing might be helpful so that a reference to the 'Headers' type = in the COSE spec isn't ambiguous with a local 'Headers' or a type of = that name in some other spec.

Also, if you're collecting uses of = CDDL, WebAuthn is also using it: https://w3c.github.io/webauthn/#sec-attestation-data
<= div class=3D"">
Jeffrey

[=E2=80=A6= ]

Other= problems I've found so far are:
  • The non-BMP emoji cause parse errors, in either comments or = 'bytestrings'.
  • json-generate tries to = turn 0xF0 into a UTF-8 character and fails, instead of noticing that = it's part of a larger sequence.
  • generate can't handle = .within. A simple fix might be to just ignore the right side of = .within.
  • It's odd that `{stuff} .within {otherstuff}` = fails to parse, since the braces should provide as much grouping as = parentheses, but I haven't checked the CDDL grammar to see if it's = forbidden there too.
I can reduce these if you = need.

Thanks,
Jeffrey

= --Apple-Mail=_AE7D15E0-51CE-48E4-9D8F-C4F9C97B9C35-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 20:30:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0D412922E for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S_XZ-nNMFcJt for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4042D126DED for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592A6E1DA; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11C4636E0; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:30:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: cbor@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9214C5DC-F298-4CC9-A480-E39E5BF6D764@tzi.org> References: <9214C5DC-F298-4CC9-A480-E39E5BF6D764@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] more cbor tools X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 03:30:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I wrote this very small/stupid library: https://github.com/mcr/ChariWTs/blob/master/lib/c_hex.rb you can feed it the output of cbor2pretty, (such as you might find in an rfc...) to get binary back. See examples at: https://github.com/mcr/ChariWTs/blob/master/spec/model/signature_spec.rb I will extract it into a gem, I guess. (but, plesae don't read any of the code, as it is probably wrong) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAljZ2OMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXmQQgAhva4Iv/HZOMk42zJepY8FOLu01vLqcSd1gR9nqaGbixzvqzB9yeHTMPg Ydu0zxWxzxn5JpR/JhAnk3/HLXih+byjZrmrXqqDNX+8N+XputXGgkooZboAthje vCo4F2QoIkTjSOqxQeCJOXeVbEBlIpwrza4Cu7QWchSMezU9zJPe9FN5L3piRBF5 RqSLHcrRi5gqdAhoZUVQsDawG9/yqOMIW/tHnYxEQGWTWaryW9NhZil91YdPZuwi BO3rHfkQksiA3EMLUOeDf0z3SvFweyiCeL4BiWJrR8UeSyqrQc5b53zCVXygb82e dM28qfrgzj1C/xRkrQfBNJd538ij6g== =Tj17 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 05:30:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179A4124BE8 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:30:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9jUkPZ_cwBOM for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D087F129505 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:30:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2SCU7c2020579; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:30:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-9136.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9136.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.145.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vsqwb2VQzzDJK6; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:30:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <29114.1490671843@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:30:04 -0500 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512397004.009705-c5515ca7df64eae2f5ccca2c4dfd7166 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9977A02C-C252-4C62-9F85-86834E120B3E@tzi.org> References: <9214C5DC-F298-4CC9-A480-E39E5BF6D764@tzi.org> <29114.1490671843@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] more cbor tools X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:30:17 -0000 Hi Michael, This is so useful that I wrote it a while ago, too (full source code = below). I just realize it is not mentioned in the README.md, but it is part of = the cbor-diag gem: gem install cbor-diag pretty2cbor.rb foo >bar Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten #!/usr/bin/env ruby require 'cbor-pure' require 'cbor-pretty' def extractbytes(s) s.each_line.map {|ln| ln.sub(/#.*/, = '')}.join.scan(/[0-9a-fA-F][0-9a-fA-F]/).map {|b| = b.to_i(16).chr(Encoding::BINARY)}.join end print(extractbytes(ARGF)) > On 27 Mar 2017, at 22:30, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I wrote this very small/stupid library: > https://github.com/mcr/ChariWTs/blob/master/lib/c_hex.rb >=20 > you can feed it the output of cbor2pretty, (such as you might find in = an > rfc...) to get binary back. See examples at: > = https://github.com/mcr/ChariWTs/blob/master/spec/model/signature_spec.rb >=20 > I will extract it into a gem, I guess. > (but, plesae don't read any of the code, as it is probably wrong) >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Tue Mar 28 08:58:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A2D129452 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:58:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k555MikISsGq for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88C38129449 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4981B200A3; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3702636E0; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:58:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann cc: cbor@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9977A02C-C252-4C62-9F85-86834E120B3E@tzi.org> References: <9214C5DC-F298-4CC9-A480-E39E5BF6D764@tzi.org> <29114.1490671843@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <9977A02C-C252-4C62-9F85-86834E120B3E@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] more cbor tools X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:58:36 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Carsten Bormann wrote: > def extractbytes(s) s.each_line.map {|ln| ln.sub(/#.*/, > '')}.join.scan(/[0-9a-fA-F][0-9a-fA-F]/).map {|b| > b.to_i(16).chr(Encoding::BINARY)}.join end > print(extractbytes(ARGF)) It's too short :-) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAljaiCcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXbsAgAu5QBXp9xtkb6Q+/Q/fKBSRAGBYT2zlZ0goosTxtnRcM9i4rsu2IVduiL MNhqqz005/X+KMMWx1OY4yOJcV1u9HlusdLTjpAbbB6ofSGXw1xqVIvL0Em/+XE5 bBwcXsu6VWks/dSgijF17uEXT9C7m5lbF2WcLoXBpa35lJ+JiUwXv/ec8em6F57d kBHJYbtIwJ1h7y/azFRuEYJ57I2sM9HbeByNHubbtj+Ljx08diXkUpaAA6TP1pAA jBZNomy/6TYU/+2Vjljyc3Ob31qcZ2GZorxH3fK5Bg8KlsYLCxif3LC8kqEJAOGB ARnfMWiP2aPua7vTfp8XQwyoc9nl+Q== =BPCI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From jyasskin@google.com Tue Mar 28 09:45:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A730E12944B for ; 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boundary=001a113d13fecad443054bcd2ea5 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Feature requests for CBOR and CDDL X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:49:13 -0000 --001a113d13fecad443054bcd2ea5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 In the course of writing https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36, I ran into the following issues (in addition to the ones Carsten forwarded yesterday). Please only give them the weight of personal thoughts, since the PR hasn't been accepted by the other folks working on the web-package format yet. 1. Re https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-tags-oid-06#section-13, https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36 wants to embed certificates into CBOR data. At the moment, I'm just saying they're X.509 binary strings, but if there were a standard way to embed them, I'd use that. 2. The web packaging spec wants to forbid indefinite-length encodings in several places, for example to facilitate using a section of mmapped CBOR data as another file type. It'd be nice to have a way to say that in CDDL. 3. The web packaging spec wants to prefix several things with their byte lengths in order to make it easier to skip parsing uninteresting structures. This is doable by specifying things as "bstr .cbor real-type" or "#6.24(bstr) .cbor real-type", but those expressions don't really capture the intent. 4. I've been using ".within" annotations to assert that an extensible structure has a particular generic expression, but they turn out to be inconvenient to use as expressions. https://w3c.github.io/webauthn/#generating-an-attestation-object's misuses .within as a statement (and also gets it backwards, IIUC), and this would be more convenient for my uses too. Jeffrey --001a113d13fecad443054bcd2ea5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the course of writing https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/= 36, I ran into the following issues (in addition to the ones Carsten fo= rwarded yesterday). Please only give them the weight of personal thoughts, = since the PR hasn't been accepted by the other folks working on the web= -package format yet.
  1. Re=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/draft-bormann-cbor-tags-oid-06#section-13,=C2=A0https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackag= e/pull/36 wants to embed certificates into CBOR data. At the moment, I&= #39;m just saying they're X.509 binary strings, but if there were a sta= ndard way to embed them, I'd use that.
  2. The web packaging spec w= ants to forbid indefinite-length encodings in several places, for example t= o facilitate using a section of mmapped CBOR data as another file type. It&= #39;d be nice to have a way to say that in CDDL.
  3. The web packaging = spec wants to=C2=A0prefix several things with their byte lengths in order t= o make it easier to skip parsing uninteresting structures. This is doable b= y specifying things as "bstr .cbor real-type" or "#6.24(bstr= ) .cbor real-type", but those expressions don't really capture the= intent.
  4. I've been using ".within" annotations to= assert that an extensible structure has a particular generic expression, b= ut they turn out to be inconvenient to use as expressions. https://= w3c.github.io/webauthn/#generating-an-attestation-object's misuses = .within as a statement (and also gets it backwards, IIUC), and this would b= e more convenient for my uses too.
Jeffrey
--001a113d13fecad443054bcd2ea5-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 10:17:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FAB1296EF for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gI4E0N0K1Wp6 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7841E12957D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:17:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2SHHdOe029210; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:17:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from t2001067c03700128adf2767709f17615.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c03700128adf2767709f17615.v6.meeting.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:adf2:7677:9f1:7615]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vsyJL6y5WzDGv1; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:17:38 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:17:36 -0500 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512414256.756627-23d178cfcb7ba2903c1bccffcfd000b2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3BEF2275-9F04-4015-8E2B-6DA40F9268C2@tzi.org> References: To: Jeffrey Yasskin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Feature requests for CBOR and CDDL X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:17:46 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, > On 28 Mar 2017, at 11:44, Jeffrey Yasskin = wrote: >=20 > In the course of writing = https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36, I ran into the following = issues (in addition to the ones Carsten forwarded yesterday). Please = only give them the weight of personal thoughts, since the PR hasn't been = accepted by the other folks working on the web-package format yet. Many thanks for making these needs known. Let me try to provide my view, or possibly restate the objective in a = way that we can immediately acted on. > =E2=80=A2 Re = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-tags-oid-06#section-13, = https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36 wants to embed = certificates into CBOR data. At the moment, I'm just saying they're = X.509 binary strings, but if there were a standard way to embed them, = I'd use that. There are two ways to do this in CBOR: 1) define a tag. This is, e.g. proposed for ASN.1 object IDs, and of = course could be done for other common data structures. 2) use the application layer structure you are building to indicate how = to interpret the byte string (e.g., by putting it into a map with a = certain field name). This saves expending a couple of bytes for the tag = (pretty much irrelevant for an X.509 cert), and may be sufficient if you = are not expecting special handling from the CBOR decoder for X.509 = certs. =E2=80=A6 on to CDDL: > =E2=80=A2 The web packaging spec wants to forbid = indefinite-length encodings in several places, for example to facilitate = using a section of mmapped CBOR data as another file type. It'd be nice = to have a way to say that in CDDL. This class of =E2=80=9Cencoding hints" is hinted at in the CDDL spec, = but CDDL does not do much there. We do have float vs. float16 vs. float32 vs. float64, but the current = tool does not actually act on this (encoding is transparent for the CDDL = tool). Syntactically, definite/indefinite would need to label strings, arrays = and maps as to whether indefinite encoding is fine. This, of course, = should be done in a non-intrusive way. So far, most of the constraints of this type have been global, i.e. an = additional sentence in the spec says =E2=80=9Cdefinite only=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cfloat16 or float32 only", and there hasn=E2=80=99t been a = perceived need to actually identify this in individual elements of the = grammar defined by CDDL. If that starts to be necessary, CDDL indeed = would need to grow a feature. > =E2=80=A2 The web packaging spec wants to prefix several things = with their byte lengths in order to make it easier to skip parsing = uninteresting structures. This is doable by specifying things as "bstr = .cbor real-type" or "#6.24(bstr) .cbor real-type", but those expressions = don't really capture the intent. bstr .cbor embedded-type is indeed the way to do this. In which way does this not capture the intent? (Maybe we should define a standard generic of the form embedded =3D bstr .cbor T in the prelude, so there is a more common, more declarative way to do = this.) > =E2=80=A2 I've been using ".within" annotations to assert that = an extensible structure has a particular generic expression, but they = turn out to be inconvenient to use as expressions. = https://w3c.github.io/webauthn/#generating-an-attestation-object's = misuses .within as a statement (and also gets it backwards, IIUC), and = this would be more convenient for my uses too. Indeed, the reason that these operators are called annotations is that = they often*) add information to what would be a self-sufficient grammar = without them, and it would be convenient to turn them into a separate = construct (=E2=80=9Cstatement=E2=80=9D). This has to be balanced = against complicating the overall structure of CDDL by providing this = additional kind of statement. I don=E2=80=99t have an opinion what = should be done here; maybe developing a proposal for statement-type = annotations would be the next step to better be able to gauge the = impact. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten *) Annotations also are a genuine extension point of CDDL, which can be = used for any two-argument operator. From nobody Tue Mar 28 16:35:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D40412708C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:35:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YMTH2qGAVRXx for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0405C126E3A for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-84d4.meeting.ietf.org (unknown [31.133.132.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4EF2509B8; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Sean Leonard In-Reply-To: <3BEF2275-9F04-4015-8E2B-6DA40F9268C2@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:35:44 -0500 Cc: Jeffrey Yasskin , cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3BEF2275-9F04-4015-8E2B-6DA40F9268C2@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Feature requests for CBOR and CDDL X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:35:50 -0000 > On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Hi Jeffrey, >=20 >> On 28 Mar 2017, at 11:44, Jeffrey Yasskin = wrote: >>=20 >> In the course of writing = https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36, I ran into the following = issues (in addition to the ones Carsten forwarded yesterday). Please = only give them the weight of personal thoughts, since the PR hasn't been = accepted by the other folks working on the web-package format yet. >=20 > Many thanks for making these needs known. >=20 > Let me try to provide my view, or possibly restate the objective in a = way that we can immediately acted on. >=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Re = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-tags-oid-06#section-13, = https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36 wants to embed = certificates into CBOR data. At the moment, I'm just saying they're = X.509 binary strings, but if there were a standard way to embed them, = I'd use that. >=20 > There are two ways to do this in CBOR: >=20 > 1) define a tag. This is, e.g. proposed for ASN.1 object IDs, and of = course could be done for other common data structures. >=20 > 2) use the application layer structure you are building to indicate = how to interpret the byte string (e.g., by putting it into a map with a = certain field name). This saves expending a couple of bytes for the tag = (pretty much irrelevant for an X.509 cert), and may be sufficient if you = are not expecting special handling from the CBOR decoder for X.509 = certs. Yes, that is the essence of the issue that Section 13 discusses, and I = think that is a function of what the sender is trying to describe, and = what foreseeable receivers are expected to do or understand with less = than specific programming. All tags and other metadata can be omitted in CBOR. The same can be said = for MIME types: all blobs can be transmitted as = application/octet-stream. But, you get less functionality on the = receiving end unless the receiver is specifically programmed to do a = specific thing in a protocol flow without that metadata. In the case of = embedding certificates into CBOR data, what would you like or want a = receiver to do that is not fully aware of the web-package schema, but is = aware of the global meaning of CBOR tags? A debugger can cue off the = CBOR tag (or the mechanism that Section 13 proposes, which is fancy = metadata) to show something useful beyond just a blob of bytes. Regards, Sean PS Object Identifiers are not specific to ASN.1. From nobody Wed Mar 29 11:51:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9A7129519 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yvTksLrQCqKq for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEDD9129510 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-84d4.meeting.ietf.org (unknown [31.133.132.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03751509B6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:51:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Leonard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:51:32 -0500 References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> To: cbor@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> Message-Id: <3AB59A5C-0130-42CA-928F-C930E5DF861A@seantek.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:51:37 -0000 Hello, there seems to be a very active discussion about time on the ART = mailing list. I think it is driven by NTP needs, but folks who want time = in CBOR should take a look at that. It appears that = draft-bormann-cbor-time-tag-00 tracks the issues being raised in that = thread (Subject: Predictable Internet Time). Looking at that discussion, it seems to me that time is = =E2=80=9Ccomplicated=E2=80=9D, and probably too complicated for most = development needs. I look at the ASN.1 spec [X.680] which devotes = several sections to Time issues with tons of different time formats. I = believe that is the wrong approach, because implementations of the base = standard need to handle all of those esoteric corner cases. I would rather see effort in CBOR be minimized for base implementations, = and elaborated upon only in situations that require it. I.e., if a = protocol based on CBOR needs TAI time, then there should be a specific = TAI time format with its own CBOR tag or whatever, defined when someone = actually needs it, rather than a general extensive mechanism with a = bajillion different options. Given all these time formats, is there some industry standard for = representing different forms of time in one binary format, akin to what = IEEE 754 does for floating-point numbers? I would rather see that form = with one tag in CBOR, so that CBOR implementations don=E2=80=99t have to = =E2=80=9CDeal with It=E2=80=9D--they can hand the data off to a = different time-processing library. Sean > On Mar 13, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > We have written a straw man draft for a few CBOR tags that would allow = more information in a time than is provided in tags 0 and 1, and would = also allow representing durations and time periods. >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-time-tag-00 >=20 > Note that the CBOR WG is not currently chartered to work on documents = like these, but that does not have to stop any WG member from sending = comments, even on this list :-) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Wed Mar 29 12:45:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F14129781 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S4Adjda1SQk6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A1F812973E for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:44:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2TJir5P008703; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:44:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:638:708:18::6] (unknown [IPv6:2001:638:708:18::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vtdWm6PGGzDJ84; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:44:52 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <3AB59A5C-0130-42CA-928F-C930E5DF861A@seantek.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:44:51 -0500 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512509491.139556-c3371429931dfa79f5209eaf238b21cf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0FC34D36-33DB-4205-B489-3E9965C0D948@tzi.org> References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <3AB59A5C-0130-42CA-928F-C930E5DF861A@seantek.com> To: Sean Leonard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 19:45:00 -0000 On 29 Mar 2017, at 13:51, Sean Leonard wrote: >=20 > Hello, there seems to be a very active discussion about time on the = ART mailing list. I think it is driven by NTP needs, but folks who want = time in CBOR should take a look at that. It appears that = draft-bormann-cbor-time-tag-00 tracks the issues being raised in that = thread (Subject: Predictable Internet Time). Yes. > Looking at that discussion, it seems to me that time is = =E2=80=9Ccomplicated=E2=80=9D, Nobody knew that time could be so complicated! > I would rather see effort in CBOR be minimized for base = implementations, Yes. (We have tag 1 for those.) > and elaborated upon only in situations that require it. I.e., if a = protocol based on CBOR needs TAI time, then there should be a specific = TAI time format with its own CBOR tag or whatever, defined when someone = actually needs it, rather than a general extensive mechanism with a = bajillion different options. Options are bad, indeed. Not quite so bad if you don=E2=80=99t have to use them, so. (Having a bajillion tags for the different =E2=80=9Csimple cases=E2=80=9D = doesn=E2=80=99t sound much nicer.) >=20 > Given all these time formats, is there some industry standard for = representing different forms of time in one binary format, akin to what = IEEE 754 does for floating-point numbers? I would rather see that form = with one tag in CBOR, so that CBOR implementations don=E2=80=99t have to = =E2=80=9CDeal with It=E2=80=9D--they can hand the data off to a = different time-processing library. One would wish that. Lacking that, we could define a tag that is useful for a collection of = time-based IETF protocols that happen to use CBOR. The current -00 is a = first straw man showing a direction we could go. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 29 13:46:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F79129494 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:46:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jb27S6XLHml9 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BB2512785F for ; 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29 Mar 2017 13:46:03 -0700 Received: from NASANEXM01B.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.82) by NASANEXM01H.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:46:03 -0700 Received: from NASANEXM01B.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.82]) by NASANEXM01B.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.82]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:46:03 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade To: Sean Leonard CC: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period Thread-Index: AQHSnDG5A5D6vPhcB0ebdNzkYYiv06Gst+wAgAAf/QA= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:46:03 +0000 Message-ID: <3A58507E-F850-47A1-932B-04DE8C25CCA3@qti.qualcomm.com> References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <3AB59A5C-0130-42CA-928F-C930E5DF861A@seantek.com> In-Reply-To: <3AB59A5C-0130-42CA-928F-C930E5DF861A@seantek.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:46:07 -0000 U2VhbiBzYWlkIHdlbGwsIHdoYXQgSeKAmXZlIGJlZW4gdGhpbmtpbmcgc2luY2UgSSBmaXJzdCBz YXcgdGhlIHByb3Bvc2FsLg0KDQpJ4oCZZCBzdWdnZXN0IG1heWJlIGV2ZW4gZ29pbmcgdGhpcyBm YXIgLSB3aGVuIGV4cHJlc3NpbmcgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZ2xvYmFsIHRpbWUsIGNhbm9uaWNhbCBD Qk9SIHByb3RvY29scyBzaG91bGQgdXNlIFVOSVggRXBvY2ggdGltZS4gVGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgbW9z dCBjbGVhciwgc2ltcGxlIGFuZCBjb21wYWN0IHdheSB0byBleHByZXNzIHRpbWUuIENCT1IgcHJv dG9jb2xzIGFyZSBkaXNjb3VyYWdlZCBmcm9tIHVzaW5nIHN0cmluZy1iYXNlZCB0aW1lL2RhdGUg Zm9ybWF0cyBhbmQgZnJvbSB1c2luZyBsb2NhbCB0aW1lICsgdGltZSB6b25lLg0KDQpMTA0KDQoN Cj4gT24gTWFyIDI5LCAyMDE3LCBhdCAxMTo1MSBBTSwgU2VhbiBMZW9uYXJkIDxkZXYraWV0ZkBz ZWFudGVrLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBIZWxsbywgdGhlcmUgc2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgYSB2ZXJ5 IGFjdGl2ZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGFib3V0IHRpbWUgb24gdGhlIEFSVCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QuIEkg dGhpbmsgaXQgaXMgZHJpdmVuIGJ5IE5UUCBuZWVkcywgYnV0IGZvbGtzIHdobyB3YW50IHRpbWUg aW4gQ0JPUiBzaG91bGQgdGFrZSBhIGxvb2sgYXQgdGhhdC4gSXQgYXBwZWFycyB0aGF0IGRyYWZ0 LWJvcm1hbm4tY2Jvci10aW1lLXRhZy0wMCB0cmFja3MgdGhlIGlzc3VlcyBiZWluZyByYWlzZWQg aW4gdGhhdCB0aHJlYWQgKFN1YmplY3Q6IFByZWRpY3RhYmxlIEludGVybmV0IFRpbWUpLg0KPiAN Cj4gTG9va2luZyBhdCB0aGF0IGRpc2N1c3Npb24sIGl0IHNlZW1zIHRvIG1lIHRoYXQgdGltZSBp cyDigJxjb21wbGljYXRlZOKAnSwgYW5kIHByb2JhYmx5IHRvbyBjb21wbGljYXRlZCBmb3IgbW9z dCBkZXZlbG9wbWVudCBuZWVkcy4gSSBsb29rIGF0IHRoZSBBU04uMSBzcGVjIFtYLjY4MF0gd2hp Y2ggZGV2b3RlcyBzZXZlcmFsIHNlY3Rpb25zIHRvIFRpbWUgaXNzdWVzIHdpdGggdG9ucyBvZiBk aWZmZXJlbnQgdGltZSBmb3JtYXRzLiBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCBpcyB0aGUgd3JvbmcgYXBwcm9h Y2gsIGJlY2F1c2UgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSBiYXNlIHN0YW5kYXJkIG5lZWQgdG8g aGFuZGxlIGFsbCBvZiB0aG9zZSBlc290ZXJpYyBjb3JuZXIgY2FzZXMuDQo+IA0KPiBJIHdvdWxk IHJhdGhlciBzZWUgZWZmb3J0IGluIENCT1IgYmUgbWluaW1pemVkIGZvciBiYXNlIGltcGxlbWVu dGF0aW9ucywgYW5kIGVsYWJvcmF0ZWQgdXBvbiBvbmx5IGluIHNpdHVhdGlvbnMgdGhhdCByZXF1 aXJlIGl0LiBJLmUuLCBpZiBhIHByb3RvY29sIGJhc2VkIG9uIENCT1IgbmVlZHMgVEFJIHRpbWUs IHRoZW4gdGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgVEFJIHRpbWUgZm9ybWF0IHdpdGggaXRz IG93biBDQk9SIHRhZyBvciB3aGF0ZXZlciwgZGVmaW5lZCB3aGVuIHNvbWVvbmUgYWN0dWFsbHkg bmVlZHMgaXQsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIGEgZ2VuZXJhbCBleHRlbnNpdmUgbWVjaGFuaXNtIHdpdGgg YSBiYWppbGxpb24gZGlmZmVyZW50IG9wdGlvbnMuDQo+IA0KPiBHaXZlbiBhbGwgdGhlc2UgdGlt ZSBmb3JtYXRzLCBpcyB0aGVyZSBzb21lIGluZHVzdHJ5IHN0YW5kYXJkIGZvciByZXByZXNlbnRp bmcgZGlmZmVyZW50IGZvcm1zIG9mIHRpbWUgaW4gb25lIGJpbmFyeSBmb3JtYXQsIGFraW4gdG8g d2hhdCBJRUVFIDc1NCBkb2VzIGZvciBmbG9hdGluZy1wb2ludCBudW1iZXJzPyBJIHdvdWxkIHJh dGhlciBzZWUgdGhhdCBmb3JtIHdpdGggb25lIHRhZyBpbiBDQk9SLCBzbyB0aGF0IENCT1IgaW1w bGVtZW50YXRpb25zIGRvbuKAmXQgaGF2ZSB0byDigJxEZWFsIHdpdGggSXTigJ0tLXRoZXkgY2Fu IGhhbmQgdGhlIGRhdGEgb2ZmIHRvIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRpbWUtcHJvY2Vzc2luZyBsaWJyYXJ5 Lg0KPiANCj4gU2Vhbg0KPiANCj4+IE9uIE1hciAxMywgMjAxNywgYXQgMjozMSBQTSwgQ2Fyc3Rl biBCb3JtYW5uIDxjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gDQo+PiBXZSBoYXZlIHdyaXR0ZW4g YSBzdHJhdyBtYW4gZHJhZnQgZm9yIGEgZmV3IENCT1IgdGFncyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGFsbG93IG1v cmUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW4gYSB0aW1lIHRoYW4gaXMgcHJvdmlkZWQgaW4gdGFncyAwIGFuZCAx LCBhbmQgd291bGQgYWxzbyBhbGxvdyByZXByZXNlbnRpbmcgZHVyYXRpb25zIGFuZCB0aW1lIHBl cmlvZHMuDQo+PiANCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1ib3JtYW5u LWNib3ItdGltZS10YWctMDANCj4+IA0KPj4gTm90ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBDQk9SIFdHIGlzIG5vdCBj dXJyZW50bHkgY2hhcnRlcmVkIHRvIHdvcmsgb24gZG9jdW1lbnRzIGxpa2UgdGhlc2UsIGJ1dCB0 aGF0IGRvZXMgbm90IGhhdmUgdG8gc3RvcCBhbnkgV0cgbWVtYmVyIGZyb20gc2VuZGluZyBjb21t ZW50cywgZXZlbiBvbiB0aGlzIGxpc3QgOi0pDQo+PiANCj4+IEdyw7zDn2UsIENhcnN0ZW4NCj4+ IA0KPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+ IENCT1IgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+PiBDQk9SQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Nib3INCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IENCT1IgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IENCT1JAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9jYm9yDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 29 14:12:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B832B129440 for ; 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29 Mar 2017 21:12:22 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Originating-IP: 208.51.143.189 User-Agent: Workspace Webmail 6.6.16 Message-Id: <20170329141220.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.81c54fb3c9.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "Laurence Lundblade" , "Sean Leonard" Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:12:20 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJDpOfClSmwbCwe4uoGnkF7RIWInqfn2+M93eCFpNCEZFa7qP5NXoGRqU0MQ1DHwXSZwDe1Jc0FwoNK+N3yf+JV9WCT6RN2mumQxikRdcOEbgomGAMK+ PYIpw0/SPwrrwtfRkrGKn9HnoDbm09eTBBKp5s6P/e+TdI7SPPMgUV2h Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:12:55 -0000 Laurence Lundblade wrote:=0A=0A> I=E2=80=99d suggest maybe even going this = far - when expressing the current=0A> global time, canonical CBOR protocols= should use UNIX Epoch time. This=0A> is the most clear, simple and compact= way to express time.=0A=0AGood God, no.=0A=0A1970-01-01 as the pivot point= of history is as arbitrary as it gets.=0A =0A--=0ADoug Ewell | Thornton, C= O, US | ewellic.org=0A From nobody Wed Mar 29 14:33:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870DA1250B8 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h1rgn1Vvebq3 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07B071294B3 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DDD203B0; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704A9636E0; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:32:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: cbor@ietf.org CC: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <20170329141220.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.81c54fb3c9.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> References: <20170329141220.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.81c54fb3c9.wbe@email03.godaddy.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:32:59 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug Ewell wrote: >> I=E2=80=99d suggest maybe even going this far - when expressing the = current >> global time, canonical CBOR protocols should use UNIX Epoch time. Th= is >> is the most clear, simple and compact way to express time. > Good God, no. > 1970-01-01 as the pivot point of history is as arbitrary as it gets. yes, it's totally arbitrary for which we have well tested running code. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAljcKAgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXghggAin3CgyTuIKnCi1Hi3CfYoQexipOXI57IxvRrKQrDWCjnUBZ6IvwdZJp0 mXGNy23ZfxZ5tLRXeORYK67wstZC7PfMOx82/rJ3v5zitMUFFR1UdWeYleqRNIwp GwL3pdX5/Yg5N46QqP5LdX7DA3YFQTmC2letyBy4aWArIxHf9KTQjfcuPaBhKW+7 fH57HL3N5d9HAwxQNlhDiKGKJbXUa8jTjzfyf2d0J/q/6ISseH+lM/ZxRVbb/lmU 1C0/M60YT/X5rgJkY117LBz320b1z4glocPWcitruWZ05RSkdsQXKEWcJT2akU38 9SUG3xnkbogUxAFnW0OrWGIvnkNt8A== =EEJh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Mar 29 14:48:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com 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(submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2TLq6UZ008452; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:52:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.136.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vthLY3GMwzDJ9V; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:52:05 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F306118D5@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:52:01 -0500 Cc: "Lundblade, Laurence" , dev+ietf@seantek.com, cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512517121.706988-291d074f4c7a6f0dfdc03fa02592fe4a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7CB258F5-2A35-4A80-8DF9-B3FFA9AFD582@tzi.org> References: <22ACA21C-8299-440B-906C-FE53E71E30F1@tzi.org> <3AB59A5C-0130-42CA-928F-C930E5DF861A@seantek.com> <3A58507E-F850-47A1-932B-04DE8C25CCA3@qti.qualcomm.com> <04EFF12F483FA149B07653989B86861F306118D5@wcosexch01k.cos.is.keysight.com> To: glenn_engel@keysight.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CBOR Tags for Time, Duration, Period X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:52:11 -0000 On 29 Mar 2017, at 16:48, = wrote: >=20 > Note though that conversion from UTC to TAI can be ambiguous at the = leap second transition points. =20 (That is a property of the POSIX time CBOR tag 1 uses, not of UTC per = se.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Mar 29 15:45:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A5C129611 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qG03IL1jHvq9 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A0D0129618 for ; 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boundary=001a113e4bb4a1d344054be69ac2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Feature requests for CBOR and CDDL X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:04:58 -0000 --001a113e4bb4a1d344054be69ac2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Jeffrey, > > > On 28 Mar 2017, at 11:44, Jeffrey Yasskin wrote= : > > > > In the course of writing https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36= , > I ran into the following issues (in addition to the ones Carsten forwarde= d > yesterday). Please only give them the weight of personal thoughts, since > the PR hasn't been accepted by the other folks working on the web-package > format yet. > > Many thanks for making these needs known. > > Let me try to provide my view, or possibly restate the objective in a way > that we can immediately acted on. > > > =E2=80=A2 Re https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-tags-= oid- > 06#section-13, https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36 wants to > embed certificates into CBOR data. At the moment, I'm just saying they're > X.509 binary strings, but if there were a standard way to embed them, I'd > use that. > > There are two ways to do this in CBOR: > > 1) define a tag. This is, e.g. proposed for ASN.1 object IDs, and of > course could be done for other common data structures. > > 2) use the application layer structure you are building to indicate how t= o > interpret the byte string (e.g., by putting it into a map with a certain > field name). This saves expending a couple of bytes for the tag (pretty > much irrelevant for an X.509 cert), and may be sufficient if you are not > expecting special handling from the CBOR decoder for X.509 certs. > Yep, (2) is basically what I'm doing now, and (1) is the fix I imagine. I only imagine (1) helping with automated debugging interfaces -- the application itself knows what to expect. It's totally possible that I've been too eager to use tags, and that I should mostly avoid them when designing formats on top of CBOR. =E2=80=A6 on to CDDL: > > > =E2=80=A2 The web packaging spec wants to forbid indefinite-lengt= h > encodings in several places, for example to facilitate using a section of > mmapped CBOR data as another file type. It'd be nice to have a way to say > that in CDDL. > > This class of =E2=80=9Cencoding hints" is hinted at in the CDDL spec, but= CDDL > does not do much there. > We do have float vs. float16 vs. float32 vs. float64, but the current too= l > does not actually act on this (encoding is transparent for the CDDL tool)= . > > Syntactically, definite/indefinite would need to label strings, arrays an= d > maps as to whether indefinite encoding is fine. This, of course, should = be > done in a non-intrusive way. > > So far, most of the constraints of this type have been global, i.e. an > additional sentence in the spec says =E2=80=9Cdefinite only=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cfloat16 or float32 > only", and there hasn=E2=80=99t been a perceived need to actually identif= y this in > individual elements of the grammar defined by CDDL. If that starts to be > necessary, CDDL indeed would need to grow a feature. > Yep, a global constraint is enough for my spec, possibly with local exceptions in some cases. We'll need a custom validity checker anyway because of some other constraints, but it'd be nice to take advantage of the standard one as much as possible. > =E2=80=A2 The web packaging spec wants to prefix several things wit= h their > byte lengths in order to make it easier to skip parsing uninteresting > structures. This is doable by specifying things as "bstr .cbor real-type" > or "#6.24(bstr) .cbor real-type", but those expressions don't really > capture the intent. > > bstr .cbor embedded-type > is indeed the way to do this. > In which way does this not capture the intent? > I'm using bstr encoding to provide an explicit byte-length. COSE uses bstr encoding in payloads to "guarantee" that a particular byte sequence isn't changed by intermediate processing. There might be other purposes for wrapping something into a bstr, and .cbor doesn't distinguish them. It's not a terrible problem, and I'm not going to be upset if y'all decide not to change anything here, or just to provide a generic. (Maybe we should define a standard generic of the form > embedded =3D bstr .cbor T > in the prelude, so there is a more common, more declarative way to do > this.) > > > =E2=80=A2 I've been using ".within" annotations to assert that an > extensible structure has a particular generic expression, but they turn o= ut > to be inconvenient to use as expressions. https://w3c.github.io/ > webauthn/#generating-an-attestation-object's misuses .within as a > statement (and also gets it backwards, IIUC), and this would be more > convenient for my uses too. > > Indeed, the reason that these operators are called annotations is that > they often*) add information to what would be a self-sufficient grammar > without them, and it would be convenient to turn them into a separate > construct (=E2=80=9Cstatement=E2=80=9D). This has to be balanced against= complicating the > overall structure of CDDL by providing this additional kind of statement. > I don=E2=80=99t have an opinion what should be done here; maybe developin= g a > proposal for statement-type annotations would be the next step to better = be > able to gauge the impact. > I agree with the tradeoff you describe. I don't expect to write that proposal myself. Thanks, Jeffrey Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > *) Annotations also are a genuine extension point of CDDL, which can be > used for any two-argument operator. > > --001a113e4bb4a1d344054be69ac2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
Hi Jeffrey,

> On 28 Mar 2017, at 11:44, Jeffrey Yasskin <
jyasskin@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> In the course of writing https:/= /github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36, I ran into the following = issues (in addition to the ones Carsten forwarded yesterday). Please only g= ive them the weight of personal thoughts, since the PR hasn't been acce= pted by the other folks working on the web-package format yet.

Many thanks for making these needs known.

Let me try to provide my view, or possibly restate the objective in a way t= hat we can immediately acted on.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Re https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-borman= n-cbor-tags-oid-06#section-13, https://github.com/dimich-g/webpackage/pull/36 wants to embed c= ertificates into CBOR data. At the moment, I'm just saying they're = X.509 binary strings, but if there were a standard way to embed them, I'= ;d use that.

There are two ways to do this in CBOR:

1) define a tag.=C2=A0 This is, e.g. proposed for ASN.1 object IDs, and of = course could be done for other common data structures.

2) use the application layer structure you are building to indicate how to = interpret the byte string (e.g., by putting it into a map with a certain fi= eld name).=C2=A0 This saves expending a couple of bytes for the tag (pretty= much irrelevant for an X.509 cert), and may be sufficient if you are not e= xpecting special handling from the CBOR decoder for X.509 certs.

Yep, (2) is basically what I'm doing now, and= (1) is the fix I imagine. I only imagine (1) helping with automated debugg= ing interfaces -- the application itself knows what to expect. It's tot= ally possible that I've been too eager to use tags, and that I should m= ostly avoid them when designing formats on top of CBOR.

=E2=80=A6 on to CDDL:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 The web packaging spec wants to fo= rbid indefinite-length encodings in several places, for example to facilita= te using a section of mmapped CBOR data as another file type. It'd be n= ice to have a way to say that in CDDL.

This class of =E2=80=9Cencoding hints" is hinted at in the CDDL spec, = but CDDL does not do much there.
We do have float vs. float16 vs. float32 vs. float64, but the current tool = does not actually act on this (encoding is transparent for the CDDL tool).<= br>
Syntactically, definite/indefinite would need to label strings, arrays and = maps as to whether indefinite encoding is fine.=C2=A0 This, of course, shou= ld be done in a non-intrusive way.

So far, most of the constraints of this type have been global, i.e. an addi= tional sentence in the spec says =E2=80=9Cdefinite only=E2=80=9D or =E2=80= =9Cfloat16 or float32 only", and there hasn=E2=80=99t been a perceived= need to actually identify this in individual elements of the grammar defin= ed by CDDL.=C2=A0 If that starts to be necessary, CDDL indeed would need to= grow a feature.

Yep, a global constrai= nt is enough for my spec, possibly with local exceptions in some cases. We&= #39;ll need a custom validity checker anyway because of some other constrai= nts, but it'd be nice to take advantage of the standard one as much as = possible.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 The web packaging spec wants to pr= efix several things with their byte lengths in order to make it easier to s= kip parsing uninteresting structures. This is doable by specifying things a= s "bstr .cbor real-type" or "#6.24(bstr) .cbor real-type&quo= t;, but those expressions don't really capture the intent.

bstr .cbor embedded-type
is indeed the way to do this.
In which way does this not capture the intent?

I'm using bstr encoding to provide an explicit byte-length. COS= E uses bstr encoding in payloads to "guarantee" that a particular= byte sequence isn't changed by intermediate processing. There might be= other purposes for wrapping something into a bstr, and .cbor doesn't d= istinguish them.

It's not a terrible problem, = and I'm not going to be upset if y'all decide not to change anythin= g here, or just to provide a generic.

(Maybe we should define a standard generic of the form
embedded<T> =3D bstr .cbor T
in the prelude, so there is a more common, more declarative way to do this.= )

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 I've been using ".within&= quot; annotations to assert that an extensible structure has a particular g= eneric expression, but they turn out to be inconvenient to use as expressio= ns. https://w= 3c.github.io/webauthn/#generating-an-attestation-object's= misuses .within as a statement (and also gets it backwards, IIUC), and thi= s would be more convenient for my uses too.

Indeed, the reason that these operators are called annotations is that they= often*) add information to what would be a self-sufficient grammar without= them, and it would be convenient to turn them into a separate construct (= =E2=80=9Cstatement=E2=80=9D).=C2=A0 This has to be balanced against complic= ating the overall structure of CDDL by providing this additional kind of st= atement.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t have an opinion what should be done here; ma= ybe developing a proposal for statement-type annotations would be the next = step to better be able to gauge the impact.

=
I agree with the tradeoff you describe. I don't expect to write th= at proposal myself.

Thanks,
Jeffrey

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

*) Annotations also are a genuine extension point of CDDL, which can be use= d for any two-argument operator.


--001a113e4bb4a1d344054be69ac2-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 11:41:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E11F128D8B for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WanIrRJX-qg for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x243.google.com (mail-io0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A514127698 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x243.google.com with SMTP id 68so3800298ioh.3 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:40:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XTsmNfpV2FkNUWG2uefczpvWdj+Kk9kk7o8wwUn83qo=; b=mbx1Bv8tGhl8WlJPkNWVE8g0+uimB+rGvvrzqaAsifSjquU0e3NkPHqveNxLmCwmus O/16bl+C4Iu6InwfHkMOAVhWrCAgMq+5MqlB2ScNzwOO31Gjqi886GpcJRgFRZvkYLSw /4Dflz1Ba6ReO7JobhVuna8e39+NYOf93lmu3p7Bi1VTg9CPFp9cgop5cJAvlu5t/+Ua JCvzqvW9V1kTKPG8bRdU+KD7dRvyi9c68YmOaUUoY/k8VarprR8AuqutlGkykIZOl+X7 nvPnzDiABuka2LrrZyoKwGEAIvCH1Dv4An9CwOa0ey4kY3VE8V6qXHcWLmanm4zhy3LW Vrlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XTsmNfpV2FkNUWG2uefczpvWdj+Kk9kk7o8wwUn83qo=; b=QgD2wsRMcDKotk4CzZfvfjX6CwsQGKRquHM5DSNV/bkJgm5GJRUGPhGYCoFP69BT8r 9LkkHFNal5caUof3VY3GackczRtU8WmalBDhk2bgusVzHMWKS2NQh+bk2DAB1Jb16our M1zPtoSZGk3e3N6bvy2DBotKLbGhttscd4y3cxIdTH9fRHLp7zYPiA38QBcamJPU2bWV Q0C406WxW2wuVQ4ZRN/2F7pC4ql+vP1xgkm+KW5G4j1OLu4J1rOD3lEvb3GKmaSrDkNa +7iRwia2EHqAZn3O/TAZIF4I4HdP7zBMvKS0x/1q7XyCKI4n/oj8Br77xRCOFwD9+dQ+ jF1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3+bHOtTIf+Saddbe3BGuwl2dMmX+rUBVej7ToGa2gQcRJndefoLqgsC0Q4ASTxMg== X-Received: by 10.107.32.83 with SMTP id g80mr2194533iog.234.1490899255806; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v187sm23168ith.18.2017.03.30.11.40.55 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:40:55 -0700 (PDT) To: cbor@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <085d3084-8130-3fa4-50b4-b2f2074c5daf@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:41:02 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Tag 'page switching' X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:40:58 -0000 To do a little future-proofing for the page switching trick that James W mentioned, would it be wise to reserve Tag 255 (and maybe a few others) *now* to indicate page switching? It certainly seems logical to indicate page switching with a one-byte tag, given that the goal is to save bits. The details can be worked out later, but something like Tag255(27) means switch to tag page 27, and Tag255(0) always means switch to standard CBOR tags. Regards Brian From nobody Thu Mar 30 12:44:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA34412778D for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRppozrkS1hZ for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 924C9126B72 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2UJioOU015297 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:44:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.136.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vvFTF5vFyzDH3W; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:44:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512595887.093384-d93053ce487a1da9d85f4f28b0aaed32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:44:47 -0500 Message-Id: <5C4C517B-DDFF-4DAF-BADC-45C3F0776352@tzi.org> To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] CDDL: Changing the name? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:44:56 -0000 CBOR is something for thee the Canadian Building Officers. No, actually it is Claims-Based Outcomes Reporting. Really, it is Columbia Board of REALTORS=E2=84=A2. (Actually, Cbor - Michigan Commercial Board of Realtors). CDDL has exactly this one other hit*) that is easy to disambiguate from = a specification language. I=E2=80=99d recommend against changing the name for no good reason. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten *) Of course we knew about the license. That seems to have kept = =E2=80=9CCDDL=E2=80=9D free from other usages in IT. A win! (Oh, there = are Certified Demand Driven Leaders now.) From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:10:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2B4129493 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7iSUkSiK9qOF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x242.google.com (mail-io0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C03E9124B0A for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x242.google.com with SMTP id n76so4192865ioe.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:10:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=ghY9sdbXHDVNqmR7UHIcHak5kPE8nZywc++qrXgS59Y=; b=mbA26POJjya3VJ5iA8uIybm671IRyCAdEL3QJpRe06pbdfyMjChXjsGwgdf8BI3kjA AjKAfHvQs08JE7JFOMklajnQKGXLnTXwpRIQUj89n6nhPJH2SMLYDiRPsPMhHu19g2oc aJJdfdjtC2JZl7YwySKsr9zp1xkyDq7jPWxYPPmm1Sm3bJHAon14OD50Dn7aQxOKTke5 il0gedaEJJ7j6GHUYTUNe+C8q9qYfVObeC3uoi3+78gHkFDa03mbbYWeuAvkwLENgolB Se81kHTNL0ZxiDUTr+VxEqpWlXUKOfAK+SiCiwzWmmdYX5NL9YIKgREF/YFBdYrviKHz 9XJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=ghY9sdbXHDVNqmR7UHIcHak5kPE8nZywc++qrXgS59Y=; b=SVMgysrGUXvum2s7iFup7qekMcy0Q1XmXGHmancUNhZF0hZM/oSs8Azsdbryhz13fW lKKi7GTUbspjRScVWfq6AbiXqQOdVL3/OvjmCYs3IjjkEL5zMhAexA+aZiR5h2XqTgMS MKRzIlbroZNsHtiCGXfQJ5i8/RUpb2I1Xl7S+Km13O6PM4l5DYvekTTkIFz5N8McBGsv uxht2dI/P8Otq+O5nvUaUBecY8ImXqDzXZJjJli2LHvhImp/zHyWsZkHZjFxa1D1+yd0 fO6xKz0QfpDrtr9SEj+VCjUl8L96U5zP+si9SIwe/SxgcmYbKWds/P0siYvwp0/43Qhz iSDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3ZSCIn7BBSOT6CsA9W1Q0Or/ZNlJbfDqgvmj68YMEBUtD8nWEpxsHM3tmRkNWw4A== X-Received: by 10.107.17.199 with SMTP id 68mr3165035ior.127.1490908226109; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:c481:a91e:37c6:2f8d? (t2001067c03700128c481a91e37c62f8d.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:c481:a91e:37c6:2f8d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 7sm162430itv.16.2017.03.30.14.10.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller To: Carsten Bormann , cbor@ietf.org References: <5C4C517B-DDFF-4DAF-BADC-45C3F0776352@tzi.org> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: <0d6c2110-b55f-f9f3-8f03-d7ec94be02cb@outer-planes.net> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:10:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C4C517B-DDFF-4DAF-BADC-45C3F0776352@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UsuC2VmAiex30aLU0wCc2458TPr4DjCRs" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] CDDL: Changing the name? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:10:34 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UsuC2VmAiex30aLU0wCc2458TPr4DjCRs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NjSJ5w3KLgHonGign20IPQQACsBWwNfnA"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: Carsten Bormann , cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <0d6c2110-b55f-f9f3-8f03-d7ec94be02cb@outer-planes.net> Subject: Re: [Cbor] CDDL: Changing the name? References: <5C4C517B-DDFF-4DAF-BADC-45C3F0776352@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <5C4C517B-DDFF-4DAF-BADC-45C3F0776352@tzi.org> --NjSJ5w3KLgHonGign20IPQQACsBWwNfnA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/03/30 14:44, Carsten Bormann wrote: > CBOR is something for thee the Canadian Building Officers. > No, actually it is Claims-Based Outcomes Reporting. > Really, it is Columbia Board of REALTORS=E2=84=A2. > (Actually, Cbor - Michigan Commercial Board of Realtors). >=20 > CDDL has exactly this one other hit*) that is easy to disambiguate from= a specification language. >=20 > I=E2=80=99d recommend against changing the name for no good reason. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > *) Of course we knew about the license. That seems to have kept =E2=80= =9CCDDL=E2=80=9D free from other usages in IT. A win! (Oh, there are Ce= rtified Demand Driven Leaders now.) >=20 I assert none of those examples are encountered by a super majority of the subject audience, while the reference in question is. One may dismiss my anecdotal example, but I find it important to note that a recent search of Bing/DuckDuckGo/Google/Yahoo all result in: - Sites describing Concise Binary Object Representation and/or RFC7049 are showing up within the top 3 results - Sites describing Common Development and Distribution License are the top 2 or 3 results Also anecdotal, I find I need to remind myself that CDDL is sometimes not the license, but the descriptor language. I think it's worth some effort to come up with a better name. - m&m Matthew A. Miller --NjSJ5w3KLgHonGign20IPQQACsBWwNfnA-- --UsuC2VmAiex30aLU0wCc2458TPr4DjCRs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJY3XQ/AAoJEOz0ck4QngW7BgQH/22CBmJ3v8OkPJJVc31+Z7r8 kxcQr5TYMdjHalK4Sbi2FtturC26BCJJo1U3/nnbfdTzeXfGATbJMZegEDUC/zYz UakoCd1+KMdiTppMsNYaSg/s0nIzjf/yJMjJMvhPtP/exTzqj7rfbt+bo0FILPJJ TnpqUoBP62thAYkx5YEaL7f2ro1h2inp5hzOPMX2iCEhrEW58oVHEQNNoNW4Tt3s L9KJYCm+s4i8atAAB/iDSKl9/6SKVlaQevPu2+PxuCuz9FKlv4j5on1o7Gt4d/oG zefgUcJxWBlOrPkukLr6yQ8oZr9SNsU4zq+niNZfYLTZn5vZ/wAasCD5rMV5e2o= =nGhk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UsuC2VmAiex30aLU0wCc2458TPr4DjCRs-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:20:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBE1128BB7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id viTLIA-3_hc7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x244.google.com (mail-it0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6285126DCA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x244.google.com with SMTP id y18so324029itc.2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version; bh=aXWzUTlTEQtrIKbU+XvL0f/yaZxe+Ez7z65VSZrUvUU=; b=SjeW0Qw5nqmmZMcp3ZpS9qH4OFAeeQP+pa7rDx/9E+Oy3bYwQ3wjIBm5H/tUb9cgDD UOAsHU1EgSPWfKTf4acFyxzaWn2GUMXf0opTD3KfpNYWJOE1KFIdrvAW1kVntPx362kO NFyF7JS2UzyFQoQd9/+lF/VcplAK1PLSqm9A+lIIaUgpUZG8ZERvRt7JHUTMJfA1soEm 599bb2HajbumOGyGx8M0kMssp1wc79jGDWPMQC0qCm99SGkhsY5ajC4xZZI4R36ceTde xqS/0N2MkVvTKB+ux9RXtyrucoNjgAlR7LQLbxugUzNAmaNtrhsXaibHQ6Th1/sufH7O FGig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:to:from:subject:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version; bh=aXWzUTlTEQtrIKbU+XvL0f/yaZxe+Ez7z65VSZrUvUU=; b=hfuFfMkBN6UMfd4FrJI6ZbMG2TLAOFJeIgoYR+oj2cLJ/uc6AbtqRMyn4O16De0YlH rQj98s7bQbWiGtOSHD8+cwxWhOjphcQ6dN/gSSacVL/ivEEWSsXs+ulvskKSuIwSfqJ6 0dXIYpQV+Nel1vJKDdcRESZy0ugAKT6ORzsvGes+vVzLmKv1JCG+fgH64PWK4c3okLlU V6bIiJq4WlTBUQzWPugtNtu69f37KQuW2IpXCLHmVcxnaTo8Cu40f+VLt/X3YVcsyfUW 4p6FtJozHCKeKAA2rwbpPi9LLZfCuZIYXtB6ofpbcLeLAwZE83VZfk4q3IynnjvOHBAf Li9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2RHp05nwLy5uVWypTFrerBbA7lTJtfLnDvvwqplEPMuck2gk3aXEZG3WzmYeZx9g== X-Received: by 10.36.33.68 with SMTP id e65mr321784ita.21.1490908800795; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:c481:a91e:37c6:2f8d? (t2001067c03700128c481a91e37c62f8d.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:c481:a91e:37c6:2f8d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm2040262iod.33.2017.03.30.14.20.00 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Matthew Miller To: cbor@ietf.org From: "Matthew A. Miller" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:19:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="X8eseiND7Mctkb8kMRTiFAbF5eDJSGEks" Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] If not CCDL then ... ? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:20:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --X8eseiND7Mctkb8kMRTiFAbF5eDJSGEks Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6Le6sdljslPgO4CXQ4exgGlunoDPrmnm0"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Matthew A. Miller" To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: If not CCDL then ... ? --6Le6sdljslPgO4CXQ4exgGlunoDPrmnm0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As mentioned in the face-to-face meeting, the WG might want to consider a different name before adopting draft-greevenbosch-appsawg-cbor-cddl. I offer a number of suggestions: * Language Describing CBOR Data * CBOR Description Format * CBOR Data Description Format I tried a couple of quick searches across Bing/DuckDuckGo/Google/Yahoo, and none of the results -- to me -- seemed ripe for confusion by the users of CBOR. --=20 - m&m Matthew A. Miller --6Le6sdljslPgO4CXQ4exgGlunoDPrmnm0-- --X8eseiND7Mctkb8kMRTiFAbF5eDJSGEks Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJY3XZ/AAoJEOz0ck4QngW7TuwH/i3rRhOW9ZA1KNbQvIhAMcbM 6nuttZyYlYbO2il7UyXhjZ/ab2FOuAYMNzogzQ9/p4WSndW5bgXcI4YVfWzE1EIM XMHEOLab/+yAPXtMFQ8qUXYNATYQcotoA0suhDimjb4eM4Ru8tTA5zhYJzGAeIOp EJAaKBhmlIOV1m0frkGsB5tTdBv0oCpBqAKdZ6wGO6bsDMvCJj3pl2S/nHiZ3yzI NADW9IGnxCdAa92Rk0LFL505rL9HLB9fzX5KFBZYD6bxZpaTqOEAqOuuhpDPRpHb j5pDxM7oXIcwpUMHfccybfqZ8UKZB3b5ZADg6MDJF6vBnX9c2PqTWOvYjBr2ly8= =Tv2B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --X8eseiND7Mctkb8kMRTiFAbF5eDJSGEks-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:39:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29D3129576 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VfneXQP9gfiw for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CD9912960F for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2ULdgwd012972; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-8858.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.136.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vvJ1p1pG4zDH4C; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:39:40 -0500 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512602780.437458-b386e03708891f8ca3781fb0c2b99944 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <52DE84F2-4DE7-4D44-A0CD-CA70AFBD7932@tzi.org> References: To: "Matthew A. Miller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] If not CCDL then ... ? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:39:50 -0000 On 30 Mar 2017, at 16:19, Matthew A. Miller = wrote: >=20 > * CBOR Data Description Format s/Format/Form/? That would at least echo (A)BNF, and it at least alliterates with CDDL. (I=E2=80=99d still rather cuddle.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:54:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD0812944C for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uS2kDunMx_eb for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x244.google.com (mail-io0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 268E7129548 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x244.google.com with SMTP id f84so4277963ioj.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=e4FNCtsKqmVtxenh4B5VBgCIqHeyzsAtK7uoMIWXuKg=; b=dz0U3jS/twnhxB/0XAX2A4Nj6zBoT1gJaNXUmD9g8h8DKC6+5XbWwmHGrkVZaqpa8s 3c2326OmuBrosMs0VVOivWyCR4iiMc8m0kMpomDle09xsBx81vty+Uw4vUfNPegTyY8l Me5RyPSWThpZBaKrzd1pRIxPKocu60uPFEq67Bs1sXbg6O0lCsHrzXZkERCffMGmcA5A 6Sbj5jT72NBSvYf4YE6Dal+9G4zYPFhLMhA//Ur2wZmm49h4hH0KSc2IUAsDkF3BqJ9g kWKLMgLOm/Y6BFBH2wWe/ZdAtNVMAItrPDLoGcTLBI/ZHIuD+GwlpYroCgcA3A7A4lYa BoKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=e4FNCtsKqmVtxenh4B5VBgCIqHeyzsAtK7uoMIWXuKg=; b=UShhAja0SzCe39f2mN/RsUxA+pFSFTXQ8hLzsT9OiUVuK+I4t8d/PLSIR+VbHGQNfG cn9HIU6oUkX73iVNwoZDt1+YDbzm92mDr+bu2BanNGcR3a5xmQVdOLCHLuJwt3+Zq75w GLeSGIHyBgoN0DpDQLJMZ9/X7fGGi4fsAFQ/RTHaFonahXXCAdEdCRtSAGsv1rC4K2R+ 0E4DPsAJEw1aYWysO3/BQEmtShVWF9tiIo9fAxvXZDq1mkPZDScAW/P1JQ/z0US/VjGI GV5mKlJubVF9Qssq8ImTR6jVXL0mThD1MJfIIVaKk5IhLjVpf6xbeMS2hWSnh/adNgVd GpCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2nl4JVm7RwEI+YCC/MJoJAaamPIGvDbRJ3Ay5zSEHaYPqrlFzWEJclq/7DJR7f0w== X-Received: by 10.107.19.222 with SMTP id 91mr3419351iot.211.1490910845412; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z20sm2097307ioz.23.2017.03.30.14.54.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:54:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann , "Matthew A. Miller" References: <52DE84F2-4DE7-4D44-A0CD-CA70AFBD7932@tzi.org> Cc: cbor@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:54:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52DE84F2-4DE7-4D44-A0CD-CA70AFBD7932@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] If not CCDL then ... ? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:54:08 -0000 If the name is the only issue we're in good shape. Personally I'm fine with CDDL. Clashing with the name of a license is rea= lly not an issue IMHO. Brian On 31/03/2017 10:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 30 Mar 2017, at 16:19, Matthew A. Miller wrote: >> >> * CBOR Data Description Format >=20 > s/Format/Form/? >=20 > That would at least echo (A)BNF, and it at least alliterates with CDDL.= >=20 > (I=E2=80=99d still rather cuddle.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Fri Mar 31 04:05:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67EE212894E for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:05:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kw_rWyl99WzW for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2344A126CD8 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:05:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2VB5DIf003052; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dhcp-9136.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9136.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.145.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3vvdvD4Dx4zDHGn; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:05:12 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:05:09 -0500 Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 512651109.544895-0ca9ccb3e739d258989a63c5b3c90dc1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52DE84F2-4DE7-4D44-A0CD-CA70AFBD7932@tzi.org> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] If not CCDL then ... ? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:05:19 -0000 On 30 Mar 2017, at 16:54, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Personally I'm fine with CDDL. Clashing with the name of a license is = really not an issue IMHO. Off-list, it has been pointed out to me that, since CDDL is not just for = CBOR, maybe that should be reflected in the name. So here is my entry in the contest: Concise Data Definition Language (CDDL). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (Why =E2=80=9Cconcise=E2=80=9D? One answer may be here: = https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2016/03/Noise-in-specifications= -hurts.pdf ) From nobody Fri Mar 31 05:11:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062E01242F5 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:11:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3GnohnbPkYbC for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x244.google.com (mail-it0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F61B126C7A for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x244.google.com with SMTP id y18so1823374itc.2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:10:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6k699EdwYml5g1R5kG6okQFze2iYuD+fQm8AbZeBc5c=; b=qmMPvTflNTB4SJok0OTGjGW/WyJUbVfWeAylJ+hLsrpptzikvMRLK6N/53hBMS/Bpm eMrw+YuOLQfdGvQpjI25+8g7xzOHQ8p01REOq5Maeb6Du6+UKlnGQfA6ww4RcrfAF6EO f/pZ8+KWoOqCoDM4dn20RqRy/DqySYU7ORy8IJZUFBX5qBWH4zOXvOOeXEPTdQ6l/mVb WDneX9VLrUuxzgVWg/vqbFLmTLzhkGVqZdAj1pOEVmj/DW5GrDv1pE6fK0CCJln4nuzB wwk6MmyyHd5+lIa96IQB8nNVU9XiAIfKJ6OcYBUyHirlBwTdeX8yx9EeoLEDrXNMfUKk CLVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6k699EdwYml5g1R5kG6okQFze2iYuD+fQm8AbZeBc5c=; b=aSLRVpXAqdC8n53zf+9bTV1+2qLK/XT7EUwOEk9L9igQREvqCbGAD+pSswbUG94DIx DE/2SiyPnwAPOZtMNAbOKQ2XCnev8qU3NS7PtyHgxyy7Zr2+DZR2TbkVgKJPneV8GTRj uranVxLcnoR6amZ6f+EMRjN9wuCKlXH+6HeBahn4alJTL15ZK6Fvff+GF0TZ7WAZO6pY CotRz7NObo51e1HN3d6FsdWi8KI0MfAyfT8wdB2Y2sPh3002jQ1XrFbuZr+APsiSEzVW oiCBqeCA8PNe2jf68JG6bfXlJcOtbR2g2ybTP5ffeRLRK6fk2FmV8lqBVh6vEdKlxyp2 01oA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3G6FdCEbSwEhDxzpp6iGOVgyFbmoxTwIJfa/V4oB/78t23oBrgc0gyrnFv+K7nEg== X-Received: by 10.36.80.85 with SMTP id m82mr2890947itb.23.1490962258598; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.147.88] (dhcp-9358.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.147.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y125sm1165386itb.4.2017.03.31.05.10.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:10:58 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann References: <52DE84F2-4DE7-4D44-A0CD-CA70AFBD7932@tzi.org> Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , cbor@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <0881c044-4f6c-632c-381b-bdd3a09b37f0@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 01:11:02 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] If not CCDL then ... ? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:11:01 -0000 On 01/04/2017 00:05, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 30 Mar 2017, at 16:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> Personally I'm fine with CDDL. Clashing with the name of a license is really not an issue IMHO. > > > Off-list, it has been pointed out to me that, since CDDL is not just for CBOR, maybe that should be reflected in the name. > > So here is my entry in the contest: > > Concise Data Definition Language (CDDL). To be concise, +1 Brian