From nobody Thu Aug 1 10:19:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C50D1201D6 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:18:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynTkfHywr-Gs for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 028ED1201ED for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.12.100.152] ([66.228.17.5]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id tEj4hBxZSs9XUtEj5hJi6O; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:18:51 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <1F6B26E0-3C1C-4DAD-9CFA-FEF1D375A541@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2973DA4F-81BE-4EFF-A55B-F8650A1D20C4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:18:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: <6CE31BD8-FA1C-4E5E-B55D-50EFFDCDDBE4@tzi.org> Cc: cbor@ietf.org To: Carsten Bormann References: <39259861-43D9-4498-A2F5-E07DBC998CA6@tzi.org> <9592F4F7-2008-4770-8FB4-54BD39191EFE@island-resort.com> <6CE31BD8-FA1C-4E5E-B55D-50EFFDCDDBE4@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJ3F/CoTT7GLyFXJmTC4B/Z6v8GmPAcNiPGgyyT1mcC9javFs5buifJPRFy9KPDEqg3NmlnI1+bOHtTsHX3UKuWOhyy2ZJH1SBiYs0GpGUMEUnt/yPKe pCtDN9t8FFDP+cg07KrTd5Q39oxywr38uzOPwLal5hQUFzISZ9x+hE8JLu1TJAi1kLENL/1ZGeqv7g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Simple values 24..31 (was Re: List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 17:19:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2973DA4F-81BE-4EFF-A55B-F8650A1D20C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 31, 2019, at 11:52 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Aug 1, 2019, at 05:01, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >>=20 >> Why wouldn=E2=80=99t 24 through 255 be considered unassigned and = encoded 0xf8 0x18 through 0xf8 0xff? >=20 > Because we considered those values confusing, and decided to give up = on 8 potential values in exchange for reducing this confusion. See = Section 2.3 of RFC 7049 (parenthesis in first paragraph on page 13). >=20 > Whether that was a particularly wise decision can be discussed. Since = we already have to check for too-low values in the second byte of 7.24, = checking for 32 is not more onerous than checking for 24 (see = pseudocode). Giving up 8 values seems to be of limited concern given = the number of allocations of Simple values so far. Changing this now, = however, would be a backward compatibility issue that we need to avoid. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 I see the logic, though I kind of think the opposite. Carving out a = chunk of simple values as never-to-be-used is also confusing. Confused = me :-). Another reason it is confusing is that it makes them (just = slightly) different from low-value integers. Probably a lot of decoders today cannot decode these simple values, so = allowing them now would break backwards compatibility. I think they should be labeled different than =E2=80=9Creserved=E2=80=9D = because that implies they are going to be used at a later time or for = some special purpose. That=E2=80=99s why I went looking at extension = points and IANA. Here=E2=80=99s a few suggestions: Never to be used Disallowed Forbidden Agreed that implementation cost is insignificant for any choice here. LL --Apple-Mail=_2973DA4F-81BE-4EFF-A55B-F8650A1D20C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Jul 31, 2019, at 11:52 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

On Aug 1, 2019, at 05:01, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:

Why wouldn=E2=80=99t 24 through = 255 be considered unassigned and encoded 0xf8 0x18 through 0xf8 0xff?

Because we considered those = values confusing, and decided to give up on 8 potential values in = exchange for reducing this confusion.  See Section 2.3 of RFC 7049 = (parenthesis in first paragraph on page 13).

Whether that was a particularly wise decision can be = discussed.  Since we already have to check for too-low values in = the second byte of 7.24, checking for 32 is not more onerous than = checking for 24 (see pseudocode).  Giving up 8 values seems to be = of limited concern given the number of allocations of Simple values so = far.  Changing this now, however, would be a backward compatibility = issue that we need to avoid.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,= Carsten


I see the logic, though I kind of think the = opposite. Carving out a chunk of simple values as never-to-be-used is = also confusing. Confused me :-). Another reason it is confusing is that = it makes them (just slightly) different from low-value = integers.

Probably a lot of decoders = today cannot decode these simple values, so allowing them now would = break backwards compatibility.

I = think they should be labeled different than =E2=80=9Creserved=E2=80=9D = because that implies they are going to be used at a later time or for = some special purpose. That=E2=80=99s why I went looking at extension = points and IANA. Here=E2=80=99s a few suggestions:
Never to be = used
Disallowed
Forbidden

Agreed that implementation cost is = insignificant for any choice here.

LL

= --Apple-Mail=_2973DA4F-81BE-4EFF-A55B-F8650A1D20C4-- From nobody Thu Aug 1 10:53:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC3F120186 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cdiwwLzFIehg for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47874120182 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id m24so146311966ioo.2 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:53:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6gLKmpdFP9WdyJcl9D9Ws/6rSJB+S48PS6ZcjJSdE60=; b=B37H6fgbaWDxI1D09MnzzkBPepvlvrWakLZeKvXarLpqz8iORd/p9/wS8y5DtdaeE/ tF9PuLVtJcuoIztYvwKZEViCrj7hGvaGLnfIszvblIHvrNfIgRgQJuYId4lIgdJ8R0QJ xacbu8FzIxk6lFbc8ng65dG5bxmtCddoGRYXI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6gLKmpdFP9WdyJcl9D9Ws/6rSJB+S48PS6ZcjJSdE60=; b=nVeUd0qGH8ZFBAogn4XLwQgZqHBBnRFg8Qz9FEtmt/y0qQp3gsvFdBnq0EbOv/2Pih LKzvgxvkQkRBa4eCbei/bWGX9biqHfSdJDX5R+UPT4sXXiSvXB/3lW0KNgzsodZcMnpM RKRhLTKECpBwhXt4eY2rvsZrEsljpy2rzFHYIohqFTta7YyewKJRY9/U7Z4hpkdZtgi8 8B3HLYyogl9eL9DMPhiRiNAOljbSFy9NhgG+3VrZydUultQj/2vEpA64/5icWaBErH0R N2Fqy1Bael1W7gICGy7VX62w1Bj5PyEUCZ2znD/VB7OwnH129rIbOe/pRLGMV3A64Bn6 JGyA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWiewFATBEfi2Per7WbnzxAgRVnKJhzw7HbBdud1ubEQYN86UtN yP7+vkrVz7mfDa1pJd0LDGmh9IC/0hk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzdfsfSaFFv20FFYQ+C2xzyWlJLCv09A0r+1z/kfZ/f4dnZolSbHTxwElpFwGwFa+tFsWFwRg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9ec4:: with SMTP id a4mr14799179ioe.125.1564682011350; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.17.243] ([207.126.127.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5sm55657567iom.69.2019.08.01.10.53.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Joe Hildebrand In-Reply-To: <004a01d5461b$97fba390$c7f2eab0$@augustcellars.com> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:53:30 -0600 Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <004a01d5461b$97fba390$c7f2eab0$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Adoption call for CBOR Sequences X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 17:53:34 -0000 I have read this document and support it being adopted. =20 My existing code is a close match for this already. I have to = double-check that I'm not throwing an error on zero-length output, but I = think that the doc is correct that zero-length inputs should be valid. The end-of-file language in section 2 might need to be tweaked slightly = as being provided by the external framing mechanism (be it a file or a = network stream or what-have-you). I like section 4.2, but would want to make it a little more clear that = it is non-normative protocol design advice akin to section 3 of RFC = 7049. =E2=80=94=20 Joe Hildebrand > On Jul 29, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Jim Schaad = wrote: >=20 > This starts a two week adoption call for draft-bormann-cbor-sequence = ending > 12 August 2019. >=20 > This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation = (CBOR) > Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor-seq". A = CBOR > Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data items, simply > concatenated in sequence. >=20 > CBOR Chairs > Francesca and Jim >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Fri Aug 2 05:00:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9220B120098 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2019 05:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nxwJfbzI11Fv for ; 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Sat, 3 Aug 2019 09:54:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gdf7nAohMtHH for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa09-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74F85120020 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.31.98.100] ([71.92.242.99]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id txIdhgz8KfsR8txIdhIzTN; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 09:54:31 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2843802D-154C-4DB6-9E98-276C8AB491F6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 09:54:31 -0700 References: To: cbor@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDTS+IkOtm/b2NExYrjjmV/rfzcxVLwDt5lExPAmLMTOtXQmDtjBpB1Pdgu7benXBHga9nSWgkUezrcEMnqhTBj61+/GAPga8JmZYFtOJTlc6O9yIuT0 BBhXDwOCTu1lGYsMMmmaV+tVINgfiqunig30NJ7vC9wcp+h/0uDpR9eA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 16:54:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2843802D-154C-4DB6-9E98-276C8AB491F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99ve added: - The simple values 24-31, the ones marked as =E2=80=9Creserved" in = 7409 (I=E2=80=99d prefer to call them =E2=80=9Cpermanently disallowed=E2=80= =9D or such) - Half-precision, float and short values that are missing some bytes Will turn this in to an appendix for CBORbis in about a week.=20 Thanks for any comments, additions, confirmations. LL > On Jul 29, 2019, at 11:49 AM, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >=20 > I think I=E2=80=99ve made a comprehensive list of all things that are = not well formed by going through the latest draft and my decoder. There = are about a dozen of them. I=E2=80=99ve also created 110 test vectors = that cover them pretty thoroughly.=20 >=20 > Everything is here = in a C header. The dozen types of = non-well-formedness are listed as comments in the header file. The test = vectors are in an array that can be used for testing. It is BSD-3 = license. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve turned up one bug in the RFC=E2=80=99s pseudo code. It = doesn=E2=80=99t catch an indefinite length string as a segment in = another indefinite length string.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99d like to get some review, some folks to try it out and such = to see if I=E2=80=99ve missed anything and all is right. When that is = done I=E2=80=99ll make a pull request for the draft out it. Probably in = about two weeks. >=20 > So please look it over and try it against your implementation. >=20 > LL >=20 --Apple-Mail=_2843802D-154C-4DB6-9E98-276C8AB491F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99ve added:
    - The simple = values 24-31, the ones marked as =E2=80=9Creserved" in 7409 (I=E2=80=99d = prefer to call them =E2=80=9Cpermanently disallowed=E2=80=9D or = such)
    - Half-precision, float and = short values that are missing some bytes

Will turn this in to an = appendix for CBORbis in about a week. 

Thanks for any comments, additions, = confirmations.

LL



On Jul 29, 2019, at 11:49 AM, = Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:

I think I=E2=80=99ve = made a comprehensive list of all things that are not well formed by = going through the latest draft and my decoder. There are about a dozen = of them. I=E2=80=99ve also created 110 test vectors that cover them = pretty thoroughly. 

Everything is here in a C header. The = dozen types of non-well-formedness are listed as comments in the header = file. The test vectors are in an array that can be used for testing. It = is BSD-3 license.

I=E2=80=99ve turned up one bug in the RFC=E2=80= =99s pseudo code. It doesn=E2=80=99t catch an indefinite length string = as a segment in another indefinite length string. 

I=E2=80=99d like to get = some review, some folks to try it out and such to see if I=E2=80=99ve = missed anything and all is right. When that is done I=E2=80=99ll make a = pull request for the draft out it. Probably in about two = weeks.

So = please look it over and try it against your implementation.

LL


= --Apple-Mail=_2843802D-154C-4DB6-9E98-276C8AB491F6-- From nobody Sat Aug 3 10:07:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC29B12011A for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 10:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EUHDa3jmWcvW for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37DBF1200A3 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4619Sf4vg6zyTP; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:07:30 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:07:30 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 586544848.413924-813e05ad61e3815404a5cc9a5bbdf32d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> References: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:07:34 -0000 On Aug 3, 2019, at 18:54, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >=20 > Will turn this in to an appendix for CBORbis in about a week.=20 Do you think the test vectors need to be in the document? I=E2=80=99d rather leave them in a resource that directly can be used by = implementers. > marked as =E2=80=9Creserved=E2=80=9D in 7409 (I=E2=80=99d prefer to = call them =E2=80=9Cpermanently disallowed=E2=80=9D Well, reserved means =E2=80=9Cnot available for allocation=E2=80=9D. I = know that the term has occasionally been misused, but that is not a = reason to excise it from all documents now. These numbers are exactly = as reserved as ai=3D28, 29, 30 are. Not legal now, but very much = available for a future standards effort if there ever is one that = extends CBOR beyond its premeditated extension points. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Aug 3 13:12:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635CB12013A for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 13:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hg8Ze0WST-id for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 13:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4D62120058 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 13:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 461FYt0P6Bzyrw; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 22:12:18 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 22:12:17 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 586555935.448473-d02e5aabd9acf7b59129b640ab8d1743 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2753B3DB-65D4-45C4-8B17-FF504927F1E5@tzi.org> References: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 20:12:22 -0000 On Aug 3, 2019, at 19:07, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Well, reserved means =E2=80=9Cnot available for allocation=E2=80=9D.=20= (Forgot to cite chapter and verse:) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8126#section-6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Aug 3 17:01:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1D9120143 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJnxgFOI5adc for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.109]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 104571200F7 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.4] ([174.222.134.146]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id u3y7hby27TjRAu3y8hz4Pk; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:01:48 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: <2753B3DB-65D4-45C4-8B17-FF504927F1E5@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:00:55 -0700 Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> <2753B3DB-65D4-45C4-8B17-FF504927F1E5@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfIjvsTNlcYvkHm0BLgy7+xKhQk0O7/Qv2Ly86NmQL6TkOGFH1hVE0VvAs9cwh1eObDOGL0Np0YHKx1qP9zk0pm1lTSyNEDfq0THBtPBYTBQ26Kn+N0Yj /McsUCtd+2N0F/L9pfL1cKr1GomKJnlBA2Gks0Pe4+aj6n+GUvQ0kmwpE9tt9GhfEbw/3OIlXRUvIQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:01:51 -0000 OK. I didn=E2=80=99t realize that =E2=80=9CReserved=E2=80=9D was a = special key word per 8126. I was going by the dictionary definition. = Only super hard-core IETF people will ever look at 8126, so most will = get this wrong.=20 The 5-bit values 28..30 are listed as reserved in one place and = unassigned in another. Probably they should be listed as reserved = everywhere (change Table 1).There is no assignment procedure for 28..30 = in the IANA section. LL > On Aug 3, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Aug 3, 2019, at 19:07, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> Well, reserved means =E2=80=9Cnot available for allocation=E2=80=9D.=20= >=20 > (Forgot to cite chapter and verse:) >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8126#section-6 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Sat Aug 3 17:03:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA10F1200F7 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:03:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FXzDoINQy-J for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E06E9120143 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.4] ([174.222.134.146]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id u403hoLXTTk8Eu404hztMv; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:03:48 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <5DF93FE7-8149-4D35-B57C-97ECAD3D2D17@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F4B55C0F-A657-41AA-A767-70CC4481B8E5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:02:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> Cc: cbor@ietf.org To: Carsten Bormann References: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBk3ZkI4fyt9NmjmKmsx/A47J1YssSr87yVlsMlTdJeqO5uotvAyzC5nqwMgqqizqPiCZ5dpcsXhKaoqwisZ9xy7uSXpY15GGKXHQbVE6AklOUwmF7p7 nVDCb6pVXK89G9hzeJwOSHWoF/J01VMC6gtAvdAbW6qkkE/ppBGdr7YeC0lD381vnPdgVi2qlHlNYA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:03:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F4B55C0F-A657-41AA-A767-70CC4481B8E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Aug 3, 2019, at 10:07 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Aug 3, 2019, at 18:54, Laurence Lundblade > wrote: >>=20 >> Will turn this in to an appendix for CBORbis in about a week.=20 >=20 > Do you think the test vectors need to be in the document? > I=E2=80=99d rather leave them in a resource that directly can be used = by implementers. I was thinking both. The RFC is so much more widely available and read = than any .h file or such that I think it is worth putting them in. I was = thinking an appendix, formatted in a three column table so it doesn=E2=80=99= t take up pages. LL --Apple-Mail=_F4B55C0F-A657-41AA-A767-70CC4481B8E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Aug 3, 2019, at 10:07 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

On Aug 3, 2019, at 18:54, = Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:

Will turn this in to = an appendix for CBORbis in about a week. 

Do you think the test vectors need to be in the = document?
I=E2=80=99d = rather leave them in a resource that directly can be used by = implementers.

I was = thinking both. The RFC is so much more widely available and read than = any .h file or such that I think it is worth putting them in. I was = thinking an appendix, formatted in a three column table so it doesn=E2=80=99= t take up pages.

LL

= --Apple-Mail=_F4B55C0F-A657-41AA-A767-70CC4481B8E5-- From nobody Sat Aug 3 19:07:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0EE12014A for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74AqFuRaSylJ for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AEB7120018 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:06:48 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Carsten Bormann' CC: , 'Laurence Lundblade' References: <985940F3-3C57-4A93-8568-C9B9CCE9A3FF@island-resort.com> <8209861E-F3F8-46B5-9B0A-920984C1CD0B@tzi.org> <2753B3DB-65D4-45C4-8B17-FF504927F1E5@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 19:06:46 -0700 Message-ID: <02eb01d54a69$469418f0$d3bc4ad0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQJSmtkf2jd1VIPan6N28KV0e+8ZZAHQycF4AYOtz+kBusOZnQLiC7+zpbASZgA= X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:01 -0000 I would agree. I think it is worthwhile to put the reasoning for the = reserve into the document. Perhaps as part of the DE instructions so = that it does not accidently get assigned after you retire and stop doing = the work. Jim -----Original Message----- From: CBOR On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2019 5:01 PM To: Carsten Bormann Cc: cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Cbor] List of not-well-formed CBOR and test vectors OK. I didn=E2=80=99t realize that =E2=80=9CReserved=E2=80=9D was a = special key word per 8126. I was going by the dictionary definition. = Only super hard-core IETF people will ever look at 8126, so most will = get this wrong.=20 The 5-bit values 28..30 are listed as reserved in one place and = unassigned in another. Probably they should be listed as reserved = everywhere (change Table 1).There is no assignment procedure for 28..30 = in the IANA section. LL > On Aug 3, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Aug 3, 2019, at 19:07, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> Well, reserved means =E2=80=9Cnot available for allocation=E2=80=9D.=20 >=20 > (Forgot to cite chapter and verse:) >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8126#section-6 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor _______________________________________________ CBOR mailing list CBOR@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Wed Aug 7 14:50:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC0A120232 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:50:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7KTzCD5CbXen for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6910B12007A for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (192.168.0.11) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:45:34 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Carsten Bormann' CC: Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:45:33 -0700 Message-ID: <001301d54d69$722a3050$567e90f0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdVNX+VPSR6jybaZRwWJKW5K0t0toA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [192.168.0.11] Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Use of cuts in maps X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 21:50:12 -0000 One of the issues that I have always had with the way that cuts are specified in CDDL is that they don't behave the way that I think they should in terms of going from the most specific to the most general. I think that I have found a way around this problem and want to verify that it would work. Start I start with map-example = { ? "optional-key" : int, map-example-extensions, * tstr => any } map-example-extensions = () The next document comes along and does map-example-extensions /= ( "another-optional-key" : tstr, "and a third": bstr ) If I compile the two modules together, do you believe that this would be a match or not? { "and a third" : 15 } Jim From nobody Wed Aug 7 21:41:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3B5120096 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEf48yltZY2U for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C2CA12000E for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id b3so1088742wro.4 for ; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 21:40:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=q+pZ6Uvk3qh5db7tiY2WljUVq5Kisxu3tDTVRJTasEM=; b=vRywWV3H1mpsxL8zlzHIabcsEIYBYmQcqaIPeXP3n6fGC5xij5CwES5FoQfrMkvBwX /f8SDyUQN1b5EJjFdET5Xnofmq1LIFmm2ebztwPQXsHm9KAk/KT6IoUHGeI9fcpXxUEm zodEBctTGR+nzCOusB/bJ9XY+X7pQ6ENJnLng849Y+bNS/iuaCmkCNZAkruQh9N1qAVH ou13WuOWndMjQqlIcW4PGETBu/o9Zy492A3hJONa6ZKYg3U4VGAcSZzTxSkpQwEXVe1V XsoqA3pDJ5fJM0PA9K4SgkKyvjYsmcRICLAa2jO193ZqKrwzstX5WJOYZCy/dmR7dba/ KfnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=q+pZ6Uvk3qh5db7tiY2WljUVq5Kisxu3tDTVRJTasEM=; b=HrbtgA3ZTS+305c9d/oDd0jp+/0bv8SIy4crA/RBBUpg77XLuZBv0MhL5z+fIYyXSL AiBU1JEjTXPZLsvmEf3XxmuvH9yRuG+67FTzL1bBYflh2utG4S+325fZm1sjmE3OP1cm ppSZZYBfFiGubw3BtQpwemcMnWKpZ0CuqbeFsJhfmQ3fBy3Ltt0KxXcSrioTCALj/aBY e+ERvoMtV95bArK63jRcg2k0IY+CIcwPBsDXFjVwKdf06OK9I8M3cTWEnRXz2IMML+FY xYnvpa2+gWjKSrbPJTbmPJ/kAN2Emfqm0bC1O/6Hs4K9gN9DMu5gOkPiC0AtSduNMTBm TIIA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWkjiPzTYOSwWLCQFcu7YzwKu6E2EpijukD7wfFXiSwtbxn+RuG nOiRsICO9y1wR5dDcJDr1pc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqze1S42RpdN3BLmSF7/LipLZOjyzMcQzBNrMlIzxlg5ZzF/5+NMZaw0rftQ5qGEHDCdUP3h3Q== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f206:: with SMTP id p6mr14754407wro.216.1565239255648; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 21:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [84.141.204.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h16sm108106604wrv.88.2019.08.07.21.40.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 21:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <001301d54d69$722a3050$567e90f0$@augustcellars.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 06:40:53 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 586932048.374261-96cb20b253d42faa4f192dcaa440d729 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <36B01785-0024-40B3-9CC8-3D28F19174F5@gmail.com> References: <001301d54d69$722a3050$567e90f0$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Use of cuts in maps X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 04:40:59 -0000 Hi Jim, > On Aug 7, 2019, at 23:45, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > One of the issues that I have always had with the way that cuts are > specified in CDDL is that they don't behave the way that I think they = should > in terms of going from the most specific to the most general. I think = that > I have found a way around this problem and want to verify that it = would > work. >=20 >=20 > Start I start with >=20 > map-example =3D { > ? "optional-key" : int, > map-example-extensions, > * tstr =3D> any > } >=20 > map-example-extensions =3D () >=20 > The next document comes along and does >=20 > map-example-extensions /=3D ( This would need to be a =C2=BB//=3D=C2=AB. > "another-optional-key" : tstr, > =E2=80=9Cand a third": bstr > ) And these would need a =C2=BB?=C2=AB each to be independently optional; = right now you are saying they need to be both there. >=20 > If I compile the two modules together, do you believe that this would = be a > match or not? >=20 > { =E2=80=9Cand a third" : 15 } With the above changes, this would match the =C2=BB=E2=80=9Dand a = third=E2=80=9D:=C2=AB and then fail on the bstr post-cut, so the whole = map would not match. I would probably restructure this to: map-example =3D { ? optional-key : int, * map-example-extension, * tstr =3D> any } map-example-extension =3D () map-example-extension //=3D (another-optional-key : tstr,) map-example-extension //=3D (=E2=80=9Cand a third=E2=80=9D: bstr,) so further additions can be made without excluding the ones already = made. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 7 21:54:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3B1120096 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:54:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cGGixcpWaw6k for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43A6D12000E for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:53:51 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Carsten Bormann' CC: References: <001301d54d69$722a3050$567e90f0$@augustcellars.com> <36B01785-0024-40B3-9CC8-3D28F19174F5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <36B01785-0024-40B3-9CC8-3D28F19174F5@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:53:49 -0700 Message-ID: <006301d54da5$468d36e0$d3a7a4a0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFPTtQqZfsVk0/CGivvvF6n5rHJJwDctWEqp/XFNQA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Use of cuts in maps X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 04:54:22 -0000 Carsten, Thanks. I was really more worried about the conceptual idea than I was = about the exact syntax. I would suggest that this idea become part of the idiom wiki as this = solves the major problem that I had with the entire idea of how cuts = have been implemented in the language. =20 It should probably have two expansion points, one for values and one for = types, that is "foo": int is separated from int: int. =20 Jim -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Bormann =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 9:41 PM To: Jim Schaad Cc: cbor@ietf.org Subject: Re: Use of cuts in maps Hi Jim, > On Aug 7, 2019, at 23:45, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > One of the issues that I have always had with the way that cuts are=20 > specified in CDDL is that they don't behave the way that I think they=20 > should in terms of going from the most specific to the most general. =20 > I think that I have found a way around this problem and want to verify = > that it would work. >=20 >=20 > Start I start with >=20 > map-example =3D { > ? "optional-key" : int, > map-example-extensions, > * tstr =3D> any > } >=20 > map-example-extensions =3D () >=20 > The next document comes along and does >=20 > map-example-extensions /=3D ( This would need to be a =C2=BB//=3D=C2=AB. > "another-optional-key" : tstr, > =E2=80=9Cand a third": bstr > ) And these would need a =C2=BB?=C2=AB each to be independently optional; = right now you are saying they need to be both there. >=20 > If I compile the two modules together, do you believe that this would=20 > be a match or not? >=20 > { =E2=80=9Cand a third" : 15 } With the above changes, this would match the =C2=BB=E2=80=9Dand a = third=E2=80=9D:=C2=AB and then fail on the bstr post-cut, so the whole = map would not match. I would probably restructure this to: map-example =3D { ? optional-key : int, * map-example-extension, * tstr =3D> any } map-example-extension =3D () map-example-extension //=3D (another-optional-key : tstr,) = map-example-extension //=3D (=E2=80=9Cand a third=E2=80=9D: bstr,) so further additions can be made without excluding the ones already = made. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Aug 9 09:32:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958DE120179; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 09:32:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <156536832852.15651.16862925724804276821.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 09:32:08 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] WG Review: Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions (cbor) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:32:17 -0000 The Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions (cbor) WG in the Applications and Real-Time Area of the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2019-08-19. Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions (cbor) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Active WG Chairs: Francesca Palombini Jim Schaad Assigned Area Director: Alexey Melnikov Applications and Real-Time Area Directors: Adam Roach Alexey Melnikov Barry Leiba Mailing list: Address: cbor@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor Archive: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cbor/current/maillist.html Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/cbor/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-cbor/ Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) extends the JavaScript Object Notation (JSON, RFC 8259) data interchange format to include binary data and an extensibility model, using a binary representation format that is easy to parse correctly. It has been picked up by a number of IETF efforts (e.g., CORE, ANIMA GRASP) as a message format. The CBOR working group will update RFC 7049 to deal with existing errata. Security issues and clarifications may be addressed, but changes to the document will ensure backward compatibility for widespread deployed codebases. The resulting document will be targeted at becoming an Internet Standard. Similar to the way ABNF (RFC 5234/7405) can be used to describe the set of valid messages in a text representation, it is useful for protocol specifications to use a description format for the data in CBOR-encoded messages. The Concise Data Definition Language (CDDL) is such a description technique that has already been used in CORE, ANIMA, CDNI, and efforts outside the IETF. CDDL has been published as RFC 8610. While this specification has been completed, several new features were raised during the update process that were not included, in order not to delay publication, and to allow publication in the Standards Track. One example of such a feature is the ability to combine multiple CDDL files together using a mechanism other than manually concatenating them together for processing. The working group will collect these features as well as other features that are raised by users of CDDL, evaluate their utility and add to a second edition of the specification where warranted. The working group will define the approach to further evolving CDDL as a sequence of editions, which might also add further extension points, probably as part of the introduction of the next edition of the CDDL base specification. The body of existing specifications that make use of CDDL is considered precious, and the WG will set out not to damage their value. The working group will evaluate the necessity of providing advice and guidance for developers using CBOR and CDDL. It is currently expected that this would be done using a Wiki of some type. This work would not be expected to be published by the IETF as an RFC. There are a number of additional CBOR tagged types and CBOR related media type specifications that are currently adopted by the working group, are work items in other working groups, or exist as individual submissions. Additionally, there are expected to be other such documents that will come to the attention of the working group. In some cases, the working group will be asked to adopt and publish these proposals. The working group will evaluate such requests individually and decide about adoption and milestones in that event. Proposals that are deemed to be out of scope for the working group, e.g. because they are too narrow purpose specifications, may still be published as individual submission or in another groups if there is a specific need. The CBOR group will review these proposals on request. Milestones: TBD From nobody Tue Aug 13 04:06:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A4012010F for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 04:06:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NDY6uHw3TPlB for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 04:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPwuvHTY-BOG for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0A921201E3 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (207.224.248.8) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 07:59:57 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Carsten Bormann' CC: References: <004a01d5461b$97fba390$c7f2eab0$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <004a01d5461b$97fba390$c7f2eab0$@augustcellars.com> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 07:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: <022b01d551e7$c5418b80$4fc4a280$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQK1JpENzJDv6WURmp9HqqNwzJFS3aU5giTA Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [207.224.248.8] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Adoption call for CBOR Sequences X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:00:06 -0000 This concludes the adoption call. All response was positive so the document has been adopted. Carsten, please re-publish using draft-ietf-cbor-sequence. Jim & Francesca -----Original Message----- From: CBOR On Behalf Of Jim Schaad Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 7:41 AM To: cbor@ietf.org Subject: [Cbor] Adoption call for CBOR Sequences This starts a two week adoption call for draft-bormann-cbor-sequence ending 12 August 2019. This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor-seq". A CBOR Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data items, simply concatenated in sequence. CBOR Chairs Francesca and Jim _______________________________________________ CBOR mailing list CBOR@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Tue Aug 13 08:43:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6223012020A for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgnNCfDd3Ueq for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-xc29.google.com (mail-yw1-xc29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5669F120824 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-xc29.google.com with SMTP id e65so2611492ywh.0 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3/MQsS7X046BzmV1lrrYX0tKy5liq4uA9+I+2cFuh6Q=; b=slpqF/goF8wBXqp7nwZvSSTAePumaEKQxuaxh1eXZT1vy7l/UgD4aCIKIloA+H4IWd s1/Inc/TyegsyitHWhUncoNn/lCIME4FmP/Q86xCx14YEaXEA4AVwawQ4zM/NF6SaeRy CaUiK+ajIUj4FpSffAga2xDi8Vyi9uRKZBTJWeX871S9RcS+Z3H8zPyCSWttajJjXhDq xBKFB9/QQ36YfU7+MJ1MvpALiCEHd6q/vveWCf2uF5yc+bPgE68FaEwg1jcGpJfWZCXD 3VuaggaJpx2jZcBZbza+FOPwOPNw3BnDcQTOALu21CORSIFMiZkgMHvFVcSOuuAoutlX thFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3/MQsS7X046BzmV1lrrYX0tKy5liq4uA9+I+2cFuh6Q=; b=HMQ9Y7R20Yj5q8fX8cZDnKRNMhKd/cVvo3sFEvGa1UxhNnv+QwQ/nbUW32VTk7GCcR ZCfZjqMA7OEbLi7/rfK9TK1islnYu3K8vyyOyXDseNMT6b7eiS2WibifVCnFM2pw28bR 85DC0lR28j9xNkh2Wg1AAdTbfRB09PSReobSVsd/pYaI66sIBrlLyh412SLfktJGEQgH z6gi/nKv+pec+N0DRgm62+yD9/cv0ct+av1qQeHwnjZ2kxxdCIMtXff4V7l+RyB9VqKF AT0cufFWH2MfLxQVtUZ/9H2uTS+kxQc/X/RcqvXkEkZ0WQ0u25feYmWPdKz8clWSdPeO 5gdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVViEjnNd9V98ZJlxowoXknUxhvJhVwqfHDplmS2+cANvYTf94h 7o0qT+hwUBqYx8rOaM77eUYJVC22cJBuI/ITDy0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzefyf2O/cnjnJ+ynFB44dCP/J1F/gjd9dh/CfAO8QC8TPTh+8dQzO5d+BbBSNiQHKoSEVlZvp/p8h0LlOpwZg= X-Received: by 2002:a81:9917:: with SMTP id q23mr5930213ywg.312.1565710965562; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ira McDonald Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:42:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Francesca Palombini , Ira McDonald Cc: "cbor@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec61df0590017dd2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Reminder: CBOR Interim: 2019-08-14 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:43:02 -0000 --000000000000ec61df0590017dd2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Unfortunately this CBOR call cycle collides w/ Linux Foundation Uptane (secure automotive OTA updates) standards bi-weekly calls. I'll try to call in late, if Uptane calls end early. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB Blue Roof Music / High North Inc http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434 On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:22 AM Francesca Palombini < francesca.palombini@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > The interims are restarting. Here are the details for tomorrow's interim: > > > > Webex: > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1237a98124111de3a4c4e61dfaca05d5 > > Agenda: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-cbor-13/materials/agenda-interim-2019-cbor-13-sessa.txt > > Time: > https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/?qm=1&lid=12,100,5,8&h=100&date=2019-8-14&sln=15-16 > > > > > > Thanks, > > Francesca > > > > > > Hello, > > CBOR Working Group invites you to join this Webex meeting. > > > > > > > > *CBOR WG Conference Call* > > Occurs every 2 week(s) on Wednesday effective Wednesday, May 22, 2019 > until Wednesday, November 6, 2019 from 5:00 PM to 6:00 PM, (UTC+01:00) > Amsterdam, Berlin, Bern, Rome, Stockholm, Vienna > > 5:00 pm | Europe Summer Time (Amsterdam, GMT+02:00) | 1 hr > > > > Meeting number (access code): 641 760 157 > > > > Meeting password: UPAt9rBn > > > > > > > > Add to Calendar > > > When it's time, join the meeting > > . > > > > > > > > *Join by phone* > > *1-650-479-3208 <%2B1-650-479-3208,,*01*641760157%23%23*01*>* Call-in > toll number (US/Canada) > > > > > > > > Can't join the meeting? > > > > > > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this Webex service allows audio and > other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be > discoverable in a legal matter. By joining this session, you automatically > consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to being recorded, > discuss your concerns with the host or do not join the session. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > --000000000000ec61df0590017dd2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Unfortunately this CBOR = call cycle collides w/ Linux Foundation Uptane
(secure autom= otive OTA updates) standards bi-weekly calls.=C2=A0 I'll try to
call in late, if Uptane calls end early.

Cheers= ,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Mu= sician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions W= G
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Pr= inter Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol = WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / H= igh North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/= blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/si= te/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Mara= is, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434

=


On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:22 AM Francesca Pa= lombini <francesca.p= alombini@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

The interims are restarting. Here are the details fo= r tomorrow's interim:

=C2=A0

Webex:=C2=A0https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm1237a981= 24111de3a4c4e61dfaca05d5

Agenda:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-cbor-1= 3/materials/agenda-interim-2019-cbor-13-sessa.txt

Time:=C2=A0https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/?qm=3D1&lid=3D12,100= ,5,8&h=3D100&date=3D2019-8-14&sln=3D15-16

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Thanks,

Francesca

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Hello,

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--000000000000ec61df0590017dd2-- From nobody Tue Aug 13 08:49:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D05120288; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <156571136099.24222.9329804643908922055@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:49:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-00.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:49:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequences Author : Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-00.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2019-08-13 Abstract: This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor- seq". A CBOR Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data items, simply concatenated in sequence. Structured syntax suffixes for media types allow other media types to build on them and make it explicit that they are built on an existing media type as their foundation. This specification defines and registers "+cbor-seq" as a structured syntax suffix for CBOR Sequences. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Aug 14 07:10:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9B2120801; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:10:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <156579180295.30485.7938673889841914143@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:10:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:10:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Tags for Typed Arrays Author : Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2019-08-14 Abstract: The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the CBOR tags defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Aug 14 07:19:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FAB12083C; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AdexJuhJzQUU; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8893712084D; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 467sCp4v5lzytk; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:19:34 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:19:34 +0200 Cc: iana-prot-param-comment@iana.org, yot@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587485172.70258-645da2994bcbab30c4d1cd301c67a08e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Mitigating a squatted code point (CBOR Tag 42) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:19:40 -0000 Recently, for yang-cbor, Tag number 42 was allocated. https://www.iana.org/assignments/cbor-tags/cbor-tags.xhtml Unexpectedly, this got the attention of the IPLD/IPFS people: https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/issues/13 It looks like they had been squatting on Tag number 42 for a while and = were caught by surprise that this now was allocated. Normally, we don=E2=80=99t encourage squatting, so the usual answer = would be =E2=80=9Cyour own fault=E2=80=9D. However, in this case, a mitigation seems easy: * Move YANG Schema Item iDentifier (sid) from 42 to 47. * Get a reasonable specification out if the IPLD/IPFS people that we can = use for registering their tag 42 (see the above github issue for 80 % of = this, which just needs to be stitched together properly). IPLD/IPFS would have a hard time fixing their tag number, as that is = embedded in Merkle trees already out there. This makes it more likely = we would see dual use of Tag 42 both for YANG SID numbers and for IPLD = CID byte strings. I think we should avoid this if it is cheap for us to = do this. The YANG-CBOR people tell us that right now the damage from = going from 42 to 47 would be very limited. I=E2=80=99d like to discuss this at the CBOR Virtual Interim in 40 = minutes =E2=80=94 both the specific case, and what we could be doing to = make further occurrences of this less likely. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 14 08:01:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6481208B6 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id whz6-4dwvXAz for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga17.intel.com (mga17.intel.com [192.55.52.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06CC71208C0 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga008.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.65]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Aug 2019 08:01:40 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,385,1559545200"; d="scan'208";a="170810176" Received: from orsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.128]) by orsmga008.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 14 Aug 2019 08:01:39 -0700 Received: from tjmaciei-mobl1.localnet (10.251.26.59) by ORSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:01:39 -0700 From: Thiago Macieira To: Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:01:39 -0700 Message-ID: <47553393.hEemA0blV4@tjmaciei-mobl1> Organization: Intel Corporation In-Reply-To: <156579180295.30485.7938673889841914143@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <156579180295.30485.7938673889841914143@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Originating-IP: [10.251.26.59] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 15:01:44 -0000 On Wednesday, 14 August 2019 07:10:03 PDT internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > Abstract: > The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data > format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small > code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the > need for version negotiation. > > The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a > number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two > additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is > intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the > CBOR tags defined. I'm missing the ability to tell a binary16 floating point ("half float") from the truncated binary32 float ("bfloat16"). Those have become relevant in the AI and machine learning industries to the point of specialised instructions for them coming to CPU processors. One idea would be to use the sign bit with binary16 to indicate that it's a bfloat16 instead. That would make tags 88 and 92 be used 0x40[constant] + 0x10[float] + 0x8[sign] = 0x58 = 88 0x40[constant] + 0x10[float] + 0x8[sign] + 0x4[endian] = 0x5c = 92 If we add 89-91 as reserved, that means the table will be allocating 29 entries, plus tags 40 and 41 in the 1-byte range. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago.macieira (AT) intel.com Software Architect - Intel System Software Products From nobody Wed Aug 14 08:56:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8FA1209DE for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hprUaM2Ji84u for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D5551209A1 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:07 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:02 -0700 Message-ID: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdVSuIxSUSR4esjoQKSKSmPDweViDg== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Starting WGLC on draft-iet-cbor-sequence X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 15:56:14 -0000 This starts a two week WG last call on this document. Please send mail to the mailing list that you have read the document and do or do not feel it is ready to progress along with any issues that you believe need to be dealt with. We should discuss any open issues at the interim call on Aug 28. CBOR Chairs Jim & Francesca From nobody Wed Aug 14 09:08:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AC212082B for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:08:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.101 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEXHASH_WORD=2.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbjMyB6-Vo9C for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out-4.mxes.net (smtp-out-4.mxes.net [198.205.123.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1768E120806 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Customer-MUA (mua.mxes.net [10.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CC64273C3 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 12:08:42 -0400 (EDT) To: cbor@ietf.org From: Sean Leonard Message-ID: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:07:57 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Sent-To: Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Draft text for pull request for tag range IANA allocation policy X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:08:47 -0000 Was thread with Subject: "[Cbor] CBOR tag range IANA allocation policy" Three notes to WG: #1: Specification Required includes Expert Review. Section 4.6 of RFC=20 8126. The only way to get Specification Required *without* Expert Review=20 under the RFC 8126 framework is basically to have First Come First=20 Served with a mandatory field in the registration template for the=20 specification. In contrast, RFC 7049 provides a registration template=20 where the specification reference is optional. #2: CBOR implementations need to be able to handle 64-bit tags, although=20 they do not need to perform any mathematical operations on them. #3: The term "generically useful" is from Thiago's=20 . ~~~~~ 9.2.=C2=A0 Tags Registry =C2=A0=C2=A0 IANA has created the "Concise Binary Object Representation = (CBOR) =C2=A0=C2=A0 Tags" registry at [IANA.cbor-tags].=C2=A0 The tags that wer= e defined in =C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC7049] are described in detail in Section 3.4, but other= tags have =C2=A0=C2=A0 already been defined. =C2=A0=C2=A0 New entries in the range 0 to 23 are assigned by Standards = Action. =C2=A0=C2=A0 New entries in the range 24 to 255 are assigned by RFC Requ= ired. =C2=A0=C2=A0 New entries in the range 256 to 4095 are assigned by Specif= ication=20 Required, =C2=A0=C2=A0 with an additional consideration that tags in this range =C2=A0=C2=A0 be considered "generically useful". =C2=A0=C2=A0 New entries in the range 4096 to 32767 are assigned by Expe= rt Review. =C2=A0=C2=A0 New entries in the range 32768 to 18446744073709551615 are =C2=A0=C2=A0 assigned by First Come First Served. Designers developing or experimenting with tags privately are encouraged=20 to use the range 9223372036854775808-18446744073709551615 by picking a=20 random tag or block of tags in that range. However, there is no formal=20 reservation of that range for any particular purpose, and a tag MAY be=20 assigned there at any time consistent with the above policy. The template for registration requests is: =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Data item =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Semantics (short form) =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 (Optional) References to published specifications t= hat describe =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the syntax or semantics of the data= item. The references do not =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 need to mention CBOR or this tag re= gistration. =C2=A0=C2=A0 In addition, First Come First Served requests should includ= e: =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Point of contact =C2=A0=C2=A0 o (Optional) Description of semantics (URI) - The =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 URI can point to something like an Intern= et-Draft or a web page. *END* From nobody Wed Aug 14 09:10:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DCA120858 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:10:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqxTDX8O_XaK for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 440D7120806 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 467vh53smdzyvV; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:10:45 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:10:45 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587491842.447538-101fa9d8009cb7b7d9dc011f5569880b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5A517AC6-5BEC-422A-96DC-712394B0C79C@tzi.org> References: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Starting WGLC on draft-iet-cbor-sequence X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:10:49 -0000 When answering the WGLC, please note that the author is aware of the = formatting glitch in Section 6.3. The spurious line-spacing seems to be = caused by a bug in xml2rfc, which will not be fixed during European = Vacation Month=E2=84=A2 August, but eventually will be (at the latest by = the RFC editor). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten PS.: My next vacation is Sep4-19th. > On Aug 14, 2019, at 17:56, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > This starts a two week WG last call on this document. Please send = mail to > the mailing list that you have read the document and do or do not feel = it is > ready to progress along with any issues that you believe need to be = dealt > with. >=20 > We should discuss any open issues at the interim call on Aug 28. >=20 > CBOR Chairs > Jim & Francesca >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 14 09:22:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4106F120A99 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rYlG5efYD6HM for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1379F120AA1 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 467vxx58KQzytJ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:22:45 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:22:45 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587492563.116491-b1cc6c7f5012475ee057d5739f712d7b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <261994BA-150C-44FC-95FD-A5C8429B395A@tzi.org> References: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> To: Sean Leonard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Draft text for pull request for tag range IANA allocation policy X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:22:50 -0000 On Aug 14, 2019, at 18:07, Sean Leonard wrote: >=20 > New entries in the range 24 to 255 are assigned by RFC Required. Based on previous WG discussions, I think that was a slightly higher = hurdle than we wanted here. Specification required + designated expert considerations that only = provide this space for high-value allocations (which needs to be defined = better than I just did). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 14 09:53:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CBA120BB9 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kyrXS-Nfp0y8 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out-4.mxes.net (smtp-out-4.mxes.net [198.205.123.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3AFE120BBA for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Customer-MUA (mua.mxes.net [10.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 88F382738F for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 12:53:40 -0400 (EDT) To: cbor@ietf.org References: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> <261994BA-150C-44FC-95FD-A5C8429B395A@tzi.org> From: Sean Leonard Message-ID: <1be2cc46-b253-4db5-f1b3-0d4cbec3061d@seantek.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:52:55 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <261994BA-150C-44FC-95FD-A5C8429B395A@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Sent-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Draft text for pull request for tag range IANA allocation policy X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:53:45 -0000 On 8/14/2019 9:22 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Aug 14, 2019, at 18:07, Sean Leonard wrote: >> New entries in the range 24 to 255 are assigned by RFC Required. > Based on previous WG discussions, I think that was a slightly higher hurdle than we wanted here. > Specification required + designated expert considerations that only provide this space for high-value allocations (which needs to be defined better than I just did). True in that Thiago's referenced post said 32-255 range. However, not quite true in that Thiago's prior post says: "Could we get 32-255 to be slightly stricter but not to the level of standards action? I was thinking of publication of a draft to this WG and allow for a 2- week comment period. This could both spur ideas from other passive watchers and ensure high quality of the ones that do get published." "do get published" = draft turns into an RFC. But it can be independent stream. That is congruent with RFC Required. The other problem is that we are already half exhausted out of the 32-255 range. It's going to go entirely pretty soon. I believe that 32-255 should have a higher level of review than 256-. We need to de-stigmatize the 256-65535 range. It is perfectly acceptable for widely deployed protocols--even for IETF Standards-track protocols. But I think right now everybody is trying to go for 32-255 and it's just not sustainable. Oh, also Carsten's post said "I like that" for RFC Required to 255. :-) In Jim proposed Specification Required with a consideration: "Reviewers should be reluctant to assign code points in the 24-255 range to specifications that are not RFC documents." However, with regard to the present tag 42 problem, Jim proposed that we encourage early IANA allocation. The point is that early IANA allocation + RFC Required will alleviate the problem, and will also permit higher analysis + early allocation in the 256-65535 range. So I think there was not consensus on the mailing list at the time but the trend was going towards segregating the spaces into progressively higher levels of review. Sean From nobody Wed Aug 14 10:02:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817C3120BBD for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:02:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONjT9ZfvFKzV for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 194A7120BA3 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 467wqg50DbzyvV; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 19:02:23 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1be2cc46-b253-4db5-f1b3-0d4cbec3061d@seantek.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 19:02:23 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587494941.992259-5b97c4a36fdc19a88e9f0872bf68b431 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> <261994BA-150C-44FC-95FD-A5C8429B395A@tzi.org> <1be2cc46-b253-4db5-f1b3-0d4cbec3061d@seantek.com> To: Sean Leonard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Draft text for pull request for tag range IANA allocation policy X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 17:02:28 -0000 On Aug 14, 2019, at 18:52, Sean Leonard wrote: >=20 > The other problem is that we are already half exhausted out of the = 32-255 range. It's going to go entirely pretty soon. The 1+1 range is 24..255, i.e., 232 entries. ~50 of that are in use = after 5.5 years (including the ones in the initial assignment wave). We = still have ~180. If this were linear, that would work for another 20 = years. It=E2=80=99s not, so we want to slightly put down the foot, and = probably even more so when we have less than 100 left. We certainly = don=E2=80=99t want to spend more than about 10 per year, or one a month. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 14 10:15:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFD7120C19 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gQa2y5olQuqi for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF44C120C18 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 467x6T6RkhzybW; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 19:15:13 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1be2cc46-b253-4db5-f1b3-0d4cbec3061d@seantek.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 19:15:13 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587495710.9202549-f276350328477ef170313406c53c2c2b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> <261994BA-150C-44FC-95FD-A5C8429B395A@tzi.org> <1be2cc46-b253-4db5-f1b3-0d4cbec3061d@seantek.com> To: Sean Leonard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Draft text for pull request for tag range IANA allocation policy X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 17:15:17 -0000 On Aug 14, 2019, at 18:52, Sean Leonard wrote: >=20 > Oh, also Carsten's post = said "I like that" = for RFC Required to 255. :-) That hasn=E2=80=99t changed. I was just trying to relay the sense of = the room when we discussed this in f2f WG meetings. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 14 10:30:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82EE120C60 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Trll3Yt4k8o for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out-4.mxes.net (smtp-out-4.mxes.net [198.205.123.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41616120C67 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Customer-MUA (mua.mxes.net [10.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 471092741C; Wed, 14 Aug 2019 13:30:17 -0400 (EDT) To: Carsten Bormann Cc: cbor@ietf.org References: <12deba80-20ba-cf55-162f-a9852ad7ab26@seantek.com> <261994BA-150C-44FC-95FD-A5C8429B395A@tzi.org> <1be2cc46-b253-4db5-f1b3-0d4cbec3061d@seantek.com> From: Sean Leonard Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:29:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Sent-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Draft text for pull request for tag range IANA allocation policy X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 17:30:23 -0000 On 8/14/2019 10:02 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Aug 14, 2019, at 18:52, Sean Leonard wrote: >> The other problem is that we are already half exhausted out of the 32-= 255 range. It's going to go entirely pretty soon. > The 1+1 range is 24..255, i.e., 232 entries. ~50 of that are in use af= ter 5.5 years (including the ones in the initial assignment wave). Perhaps but we did use up a whole block of 24 all at once with=20 array-tags. If we do that more often, it's going to go very fast. If we=20 put our foot down and say that won't happen, it will take much much=20 longer. I think it will be somewhere in the middle where blocks of 2-16=20 are allocated at once. For the sake of argument let's say that Specification Required with=20 "reluctance when it is not an RFC document" is the way the WG decides to=20 go, for values to 255. What is the level of review for 255-4095? What=20 about 4096-32767? ~~ We have another problem in that a lot of the Specification Required=20 registrations in the current registry don't actually comply with=20 Specification Required in RFC 8126. RFC 8126 says: "the values and their meanings must be documented in a permanent and=20 readily available public specification, in sufficient detail so that=20 interoperability between independent implementations is possible. ...=20 with the additional requirement of a formal public specification ...=20 evaluate whether it is sufficiently stable and permanent, and=20 sufficiently clear and technically sound to allow interoperable=20 implementations ... The intention behind "permanent and readily=20 available" is that a document can reasonably be expected to be findable=20 and retrievable long after IANA assignment of the requested value.=C2=A0=20 Publication of an RFC is an ideal means of achieving this requirement,=20 but Specification Required is intended to also cover the case of a=20 document published outside of the RFC path..." Actually a lot of the registrations have been to GitHub links. GitHub is=20 not sufficiently stable and permanent, nor is it "expected to be=20 findable and retrievable long after IANA assignment of the requested=20 value...", nor is it really "published" in the RFC 8126 sense. The data=20 may be around for right now but anybody can delete their Git=20 repositories, or worse, assert their Right to be Forgotten under EU GDPR=20 or California's CCPA (2020). The point of Specification Required is that it's the work product of=20 another publishing group, or is part of published and relatively stable=20 software, such that many eyes have been on it. I consider the=20 documentation for Philip Hazel's PCRE, or documentation for widely=20 distributed software (Microsoft technical documents, Linux kernel=20 distributions, SSH man files) to meet this standard. But not just a=20 GitHub link. 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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 06:41:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Francesca Palombini via Datatracker To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: cbor@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, cbor-chairs@ietf.org, francesca.palombini@ericsson.com, Francesca Palombini Message-ID: <156587646384.15832.10776769526244223381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 06:41:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 13:41:08 -0000 Francesca Palombini has requested publication of draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 as Informational on behalf of the CBOR working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ From nobody Thu Aug 15 07:57:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2201120052 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:57:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MvF4xT5g9lme for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga03.intel.com (mga03.intel.com [134.134.136.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 081BA120071 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:57:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by orsmga103.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Aug 2019 07:56:26 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,389,1559545200"; d="scan'208";a="194778741" Received: from orsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.128]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 15 Aug 2019 07:56:25 -0700 Received: from tjmaciei-mobl1.localnet (10.251.11.19) by ORSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:56:25 -0700 From: Thiago Macieira To: Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:56:23 -0700 Message-ID: <2845175.7IlyYNWCq8@tjmaciei-mobl1> Organization: Intel Corporation In-Reply-To: <156587646384.15832.10776769526244223381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <156587646384.15832.10776769526244223381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Originating-IP: [10.251.11.19] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 14:57:50 -0000 On Thursday, 15 August 2019 06:41:03 PDT Francesca Palombini via Datatracker wrote: > Francesca Palombini has requested publication of > draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 as Informational on behalf of the CBOR > working group. > > Please verify the document's state at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ What's the correct procedure to request that bfloat16 be considered before the RFC is published? -- Thiago Macieira - thiago.macieira (AT) intel.com Software Architect - Intel System Software Products From nobody Thu Aug 15 08:25:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBA21200BA for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 08:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0GwPdbTF9ZOi for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 08:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CE03120090 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 08:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 468Vcz5Nfrz10BM; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 17:25:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2845175.7IlyYNWCq8@tjmaciei-mobl1> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 17:25:07 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587575505.492113-dd67b05139e6bf62a3f45bdf8cb03956 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3A28AD58-E2CB-46EC-921C-F35A5F0BBF2D@tzi.org> References: <156587646384.15832.10776769526244223381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2845175.7IlyYNWCq8@tjmaciei-mobl1> To: Thiago Macieira X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 15:25:12 -0000 On Aug 15, 2019, at 16:56, Thiago Macieira = wrote: >=20 > On Thursday, 15 August 2019 06:41:03 PDT Francesca Palombini via = Datatracker=20 > wrote: >> Francesca Palombini has requested publication of >> draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 as Informational on behalf of the CBOR >> working group. >>=20 >> Please verify the document's state at >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ >=20 > What's the correct procedure to request that bfloat16 be considered = before the=20 > RFC is published? Make a comment in the working group last call that ended on March 20 :-) But seriously speaking, there is a larger variety of 16-bit floating = point formats than for the longer sizes, probably because it matters = more how exactly you spend the bits if you have so few. Bfloat16 (*) is = one of the more prominent ones (ARM=E2=80=99s modified finite-only = binary16 comes up as another one). Not sure handling these would fit this draft, as it really tries to = follow JavaScript typed arrays [1] and round those out at the corners by = taking the next sizes defined in the referenced standards. I think that writing a brief new document that allocates a tag or two = for be/le bfloat16 typed arrays would be the obvious next step (and I = sure can help you with generating that document next month, if you = want). If you think this should go into the existing specification = instead, making a comment to this mailing list is a good first step = (which you did); you could also make a more formal comment at the IETF = last call that is likely to be next after AD review. In the long run, we=E2=80=99d also have to consider hybrid formats such = as RGBE (which is approximately the 3-dimensional, unsigned version of = bfloat16), so maybe it=E2=80=99s worth casting a wider net and see what = requirements are out there first. Whether the CBOR WG is interested in picking this up or it simply goes = the specification required route is another question; this is probably = best discussed when we know what else is needed. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) binary32 truncated to 16 bits. =20 (How do I get my system not to autocorrect bfloat16 into bloat16?) [1] = https://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/6.0/#sec-typedarray-objects From nobody Thu Aug 15 09:11:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B491200C5 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:11:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6mTVlJjTBkBG for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga03.intel.com (mga03.intel.com [134.134.136.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A6271200B7 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga004.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.38]) by orsmga103.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Aug 2019 09:03:35 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,389,1559545200"; d="scan'208";a="328412956" Received: from orsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.128]) by orsmga004.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 15 Aug 2019 09:03:34 -0700 Received: from tjmaciei-mobl1.localnet (10.54.75.28) by ORSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:03:34 -0700 From: Thiago Macieira To: Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:03:33 -0700 Message-ID: <6103220.oG8Krn4eWb@tjmaciei-mobl1> Organization: Intel Corporation In-Reply-To: <3A28AD58-E2CB-46EC-921C-F35A5F0BBF2D@tzi.org> References: <156587646384.15832.10776769526244223381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2845175.7IlyYNWCq8@tjmaciei-mobl1> <3A28AD58-E2CB-46EC-921C-F35A5F0BBF2D@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Originating-IP: [10.54.75.28] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:11:15 -0000 On Thursday, 15 August 2019 08:25:07 PDT Carsten Bormann wrote: > I think that writing a brief new document that allocates a tag or two for > be/le bfloat16 typed arrays would be the obvious next step (and I sure can > help you with generating that document next month, if you want). If you > think this should go into the existing specification instead, making a > comment to this mailing list is a good first step (which you did); you > could also make a more formal comment at the IETF last call that is likely > to be next after AD review. Can you at least reserve the full 32 tag range that would be allocated if the sign bit were used, then? That is, from tags 64 to 95, instead of just 64 to 87. Of course, bfloat16 doesn't need to be in that range, but it makes as much sense to use it as the little-endian 8-bit trick you used there. -- Thiago Macieira - thiago.macieira (AT) intel.com Software Architect - Intel System Software Products From nobody Thu Aug 15 09:39:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F19A1200D7 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:39:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id phvS4gLgQ0_q for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DE741200F5 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 468XGx3pspz108n; Thu, 15 Aug 2019 18:39:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6103220.oG8Krn4eWb@tjmaciei-mobl1> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 18:39:37 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587579975.4506921-795ac752106d0bfa1acfd0ec968a7975 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3927C0BF-0CD5-4E07-B688-0193690ADAD1@tzi.org> References: <156587646384.15832.10776769526244223381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2845175.7IlyYNWCq8@tjmaciei-mobl1> <3A28AD58-E2CB-46EC-921C-F35A5F0BBF2D@tzi.org> <6103220.oG8Krn4eWb@tjmaciei-mobl1> To: Thiago Macieira X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-06 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:39:45 -0000 On Aug 15, 2019, at 18:03, Thiago Macieira = wrote: >=20 > Can you at least reserve the full 32 tag range that would be allocated = if the=20 > sign bit were used, then? That is, from tags 64 to 95, instead of just = 64 to=20 > 87. The CBOR tags registry does not have any mechanics defined for reserving = ranges. Of course, we could reserve 88 to 95 like we reserved 76. Then we=E2=80=99= d need to make RFCs to unreserve those numbers when we need them. (88 and 92 would be the obvious candidates for be/le bfloat16 for me, if = the objective is to keep implementations of the entire gamut simple.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Aug 19 12:59:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34C71208F2; Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:59:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kRMWJyHBE4Xg; Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7F51208E0; Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:59:20 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: CC: References: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:59:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01f501d556c8$97d452a0$c77cf7e0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGWLfiTnFim1QpWkbA0RZBLNAKVHKeBLa8w Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Starting WGLC on draft-iet-cbor-sequence X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 19:59:51 -0000 Here is my WGLC review - and also a reminder that people need to, at a minimum, say that they have no problems with the document. The hope is to close the WGLC before the next CBOR interim. Jim 1. Section 1: Should the introduction note the registration in the CBOR content format registry as well? I have no personal opinion on this. 2. Section 2: I find the paragraph about delimiters slightly difficult to read. Something that might be better is: CBOR Sequences, unlike JSON Text Sequences [], do not use a marker between items. This is because CBOR data items are self-delimiting and the end can always be calculated. This is no longer true for JSON as a simple value such as an number is now a JSON document. This reads slightly better in my opinion and also highlights why JSON is no longer self-delimiting. 3. Section2: In the second bullet under decode - would "deliver a sequence of CBOR data model values" be better as "deliver one or more CBOR data model values" ? I don't have a personal opinion, I just wonder if avoiding sequence is better in this context. From john.mattsson@gmail.com Tue Aug 20 11:28:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A0412098E for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ih8CAcOmvOF2 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A81512096C for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id 201so5333923qkm.9 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GhIbHkicXTQCEqIAfISpoL2+EB18Y9v5Sl67VomhJN4=; b=eEvi2GWjH605NTDQ9RGxnzns/RydMNTbWvjui16c1xXkeXEwfUzNKuM13SeII3Btiy ahPxfY4ctLQdazxW9rtjMKWLYosqUxoT6SdivXPDFh7ZZZGNerjE3sslAqWOVGb8Bwq2 mPuFpS5er6UQ6rXb0nFlVJ77qi6sCFOrkxNW3FLLmoGU4N2p2OWDX9q8sWtTL0GnIqFk Rg9d7SfJKgz2Qe7kwPiyHzIrKNAtM5cv23dZyKWpbNr3XNs9LXDLuwi+w/OCI9aQSM9r E02c4dV+qx1uB4AmjNLld3m+ahB5f56rN6DNZOykGwMEusWSUFppjcjxBJkA4B3UMsUF QMZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GhIbHkicXTQCEqIAfISpoL2+EB18Y9v5Sl67VomhJN4=; b=kTWNMVTrLaX3qxAKQMO378cG+Wm40sR/B0exFu+vRNqqTTaWhvPHwXXdq0mqRV+tOn +jv3A9t2zntRJ03m7fqfAK5hT2O/LkohLcyuTCOK1eqL7ksKtU+kfvi662pXc5VHpttx 8wwT9Ly0c2TRc5+e7XvyYJM+AkH4D5/Ypk0XrDRmW4+ymtcWxsCmTtZy/CAzpxo38it3 VGrm766Hlwd9NYIMYB7z6xwiBCZC+IBG1u/9TclwkQ9cMTxlDwNyu9fa+GAswd7dmU1F o4gH8ewnruXeKl8v1Gv3RBXO0xjIZoqTaTqQjLUzYjAH3v1BV1vghKHoYk+6TOL/wUMZ B9HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVoA1AP9wgT/h6RSUnFNi6TwukI2PdOlxWcokGdu7qrk+BhvlHj MtVqdR9QXp7EAM/3UzQtLdLO8RwLzRF6Ou8x9/kEmKkr X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqybqOtxWrAK7LwkmcWlDuIuvQRx6Ne+O4WLrWz8K6IMVOnWLGF2BZYuaHvilH9tkDpku+E8VQ0h3tFmBshKDbo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1492:: with SMTP id w18mr28274536qkj.497.1566325720031; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:28:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Mattsson Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:28:29 +0200 Message-ID: To: cbor@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000253673059090a048" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Starting WGLC on draft-iet-cbor-sequence X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 18:57:23 -0000 --000000000000253673059090a048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I have read read the document and think it is ready to to progress. - The document talks about CDDL: "CDDL currently does not provide for unadorned CBOR sequences as a top-level subject of a specification." I think it should something about diagnostic notation as well. Cheers, John --000000000000253673059090a048 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I have read read the document and think it is r= eady to to progress.

- The document talks about CDDL:

"C= DDL currently does not provide for unadorned CBOR sequences as a
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0top-level subject of a specification."

I think it should = something about diagnostic notation as well.

Cheers,
John
--000000000000253673059090a048-- From nobody Tue Aug 20 20:37:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD30120088; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:37:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Roach via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: cbor-chairs@ietf.org, cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Adam Roach Message-ID: <156635867136.374.6842904252766047443.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:37:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-cbor-01-05: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 03:37:52 -0000 Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-cbor-01-05: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-cbor/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The last block of new text since the last time I looked at this is a bit jumbled. Nits below. > The working group will evaluate such requests individually and decide about > adoption and milestones in that event. Proposals that are deemed to be out In which event? Suggest: "...as such requests arise" or similar. > of scope for the working group, e.g. because they are too narrow purpose Nit: "e.g.," (add a comma). Even better, replace with "for example" Nit: "narrow-purpose" > specifications, may still be published as individual submission or in Nit: "of a specification" (or remove "specifications" altogether) Nit: "as an individual submission" or "as individual submissions" > another groups if there is a specific need. The CBOR group will review these Nit: "another group" or "other groups" > proposals on request. From nobody Wed Aug 21 07:22:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48463120033 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:22:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTs4CcxnsMRD for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77E3C12024E for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o6so1678195oic.9 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:22:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zInazjfo64JDRWf64Mog1FnBhbCaC4QdypnZlo6aaQk=; b=J+UI710gKlhVlk2Hd7sPHrdF2p+N6+n85k7HsnszVsBRna8LD3Ypvniw+3QglUeOGT ZZhj3JzsJwA3jx7ttJxrUkNaEWJntZccXs76CvC5lQoCTtZ9wTfMeEdLrdD0ua+DcDMg 5LHaH6RNOu6TZ46nc4EqNPMgNOnxaeqKNNAdBeDU9e8QDJcGVeRBkaqNXNQsoZ6akNBu MWWepmVWVQpmrv79mi/+Uyt7ye45Xb12RRqd3fSXkLQdnXBjo0IXujGMgd0YwXWZUVuK Bnyb3/hlLHm0qJU3B3NHg23neybap4/BYrMM1ia5e61PT6388cAWPxcS9mqzKzQ4lub4 1DZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zInazjfo64JDRWf64Mog1FnBhbCaC4QdypnZlo6aaQk=; b=c8US9vdAmbtWYBlqfRleJQiNHa7lrLNGFMFzA8eg7cbGL5c8V3CVRewaOP7QIA8tQO ZOg4xGcAAs+o1iJO6U94O7cW7krkL1jPBolThVO2aN2lPDWZi8GV3+F0RqQOpHKB0HPc zgZUh+Yb+SvK5jhk3mu85LAl61srxjrYjAFNHvpNVaofNeSUIwOOP8ECj+yElSi9ttPQ FqCu9TzxdsFqSPjzba3+wNryifavgJXqqDXsYRLfTTnThnAATYGqbbRnopDxvKBzhSAH 12vr3srkp30UdxO1Qzi8AC/jF/UqAZrf6eHYastZWxlH37+lKferfonex9Fevtjvr7ys wKyw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWzumYqFzrK44hI5Nnsb/x/qdEDm9IZjRdd7arFwFEV0wnVVbn2 +bGxJbeqoFjaudD0Z1hC4p8CsHIs1GB2p4XIx8TpWZYh X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw9u5taw+ryLh65hkx/a039lIyLBhGzamRJDXqFZjMwhPar/yTJbggRM2BuGpktTzeBO6ZVDq126pEK41yTvwo= X-Received: by 2002:a54:478d:: with SMTP id o13mr210807oic.54.1566397330424; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:22:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: David Kemp Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 10:19:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: cbor@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007508360590a14c72" Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] An Information-based CBOR schema language? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:22:13 -0000 --0000000000007508360590a14c72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" CBOR-bis describes the need to specify document content without needing the specification to parse the document: "Of course, in real-world implementations, the encoder and the decoder will have a shared view of what should be in a CBOR data item. For example, an agreed-to format might be "the item is an array whose first value is a UTF-8 string, second value is an integer, and subsequent values are zero or more floating-point numbers" or "the item is a map that has byte strings for keys and contains at least one pair whose key is 0xab01". CDDL is a schema language for CBOR. JADN (JSON Abstract Data Notation) is another. JADN differs from CDDL in that it: 1) Specifies an Information Model rather than a Data Model (RFC 3444), and 2) Is itself structured data (JSON or CBOR) rather than text that requires parsing JADN was created as the schema language for the OpenC2 security automation protocol ( https://www.csoonline.com/article/3386161/openc2-can-accelerate-security-operations-automation-and-orchestration.html), but there is now a need to separate the schema language from any particular application protocol. There is currently a draft in OASIS format ( https://github.com/oasis-tcs/openc2-jadn/blob/working/jadn-v1.0-wd01.md), but it seems possible that the IETF is a more appropriate venue to develop an Information Model standard. This message is to gauge interest in creating a JADN Internet Draft and to either initiate a BOF or adopt the draft as a work product of an existing WG. If you are interested in working on such a spec, or have suggestions for where it should be worked, please let me know. --0000000000007508360590a14c72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
CBOR-bis describes the need to specify document content wi= thout needing the specification to parse the document:

=C2=A0 "= Of course, in real-world implementations, the encoder and the decoder
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0will have a shared view of what should be in a CBOR data item.= =C2=A0 For
=C2=A0 =C2=A0example, an agreed-to format might be "the = item is an array whose
=C2=A0 =C2=A0first value is a UTF-8 string, secon= d value is an integer, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0subsequent values are zero or mo= re floating-point numbers" or "the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0item is a map = that has byte strings for keys and contains at least
=C2=A0 =C2=A0one pa= ir whose key is 0xab01".

CDDL is a schema language for CBOR.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0JADN (JSON Abstract Data Notation) is another.=C2=A0 JADN differs= from CDDL in that it:
=C2=A0 1) Specifies an Information Model rather t= han a Data Model (RFC 3444), and
=C2=A0 2) Is itself structured data (JS= ON or CBOR) rather than text that requires parsing

JADN was created = as the schema language for the OpenC2 security automation protocol (https://www.csoonline.com/a= rticle/3386161/openc2-can-accelerate-security-operations-automation-and-orc= hestration.html), but there is now a need to separate the schema langua= ge from any particular application protocol.=C2=A0 =C2=A0There is currently= a draft in OASIS format ( https://github.com/oasis-tcs/openc2-jadn/blob/working/jadn-v1.0-wd= 01.md), but=C2=A0it seems possible that the IETF is a more appropriate = venue to develop an Information Model standard.

This message is to g= auge interest in creating a JADN Internet Draft and to either initiate a BO= F or adopt the draft as a work product of an existing WG.=C2=A0 If you are = interested in working on such a spec, or have suggestions for where it shou= ld be worked, please let me know.

--0000000000007508360590a14c72-- From nobody Wed Aug 21 07:49:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAEC512090D for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NgEaiqYHtsAE for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B53571208EF for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46D9YX5Mfzz101v; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:49:52 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:49:52 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588091790.067705-7687525488f9cdfaea528b2c241436cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <099E6A89-2930-451F-A380-FE969826A434@tzi.org> References: To: David Kemp X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] An Information-based CBOR schema language? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:49:57 -0000 Hi David, I cannot answer your question on the level of interest in doing work on = another data description language, but I want to quickly address two = statements in your email: > On Aug 21, 2019, at 16:19, David Kemp wrote: >=20 > CDDL is a schema language for CBOR. JADN (JSON Abstract Data = Notation) is another. JADN differs from CDDL in that it: > 1) Specifies an Information Model rather than a Data Model (RFC = 3444), and The prose around JADN says so, but then goes ahead and does = approximately what CDDL does (actually it appears to me that in some = places it is even more concerned with serialization issues than CDDL = is). Since the boundary between information and data models is not strict = (and, indeed, one may want to make several refinement steps on the way = from a conceptual model to a data model that directly binds to a = serialization scheme), this is not very surprising. As one data point, I would like to point out that CDDL is very much in = use as an information modeling language; this can be mostly done by = stopping short of giving a specific mapping to JSON or CBOR constructs = (or by using container/composition abstractions that only have default = mappings, which enables the information model to be =E2=80=9Cexecutable=E2= =80=9D, without actually tying down the serialization mappings of those = abstractions). JADN does address one point CDDL doesn=E2=80=99t do very well yet: = Having a single model that maps to both idiomatic JSON and concise CBOR. = I believe that the next version of CDDL will need to provide more = functionality for this, as well. > 2) Is itself structured data (JSON or CBOR) rather than text that = requires parsing Please see = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-cbor-cddl-freezer-02#section-8 = for why this may not be a distinction for much longer. Actually, JADN = also defines a human notation (JADN-IDL), and I applaud you for this = decision. (I don=E2=80=99t know why humans, outside of debugging, = should ever need to see the JSON formats of either JADN or CDDL.) In summary, I do believe that JADN is an interesting development that we = as a WG should take note of. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 21 09:59:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017E3120BFB for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rl4h5muIbIek for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0951C1201DC for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id q8so1847198oij.5 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KucKwCUyzlMobxetfPaQX35d/cxK8kDkWKYS7L3dxxc=; b=TzSL11bplL7JKHnngFdjWbGEsGX1p1ck+E4zmQALhM8aJ0u/M6g/dLBem3yGdfLIVB +OaajUvYonmY1MvAJMrPYF3iMbx68ODCI6ajti/DXMXe3JTU/vWLQtEV7SXcbp+SVzf8 ib3SlzBK74hjscgEYYdvghJj3NhSoegEvElVwrlByYyuB1gdMhhjAHd1+JfLimpa2pkY ulGveeL2LFCsroAlAbVDpznUal2qwony128bjKQvh2Ks1okhNizI/BLEL2vXiWp1xWhG yPIyqCsxW0EeT1PcllQFdaepJjuMUY5Wy6Nh7ThB8Y99YsdlYImTg1faXPlwcvVhZXXe jPmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KucKwCUyzlMobxetfPaQX35d/cxK8kDkWKYS7L3dxxc=; b=tuKeQWIiGzk6JZaSKDDZlZ83UkmrSR7+gQ9SENb0shOf6OY5CgBT1TCXC690QJwewl +uvjPZZOcJ6a8OX1ZBFNYEmj1LCqSeqHQmbnK22pEeBSHzgXQsJyxvPwS10m1Nh4Ffim E4qmSkMyICaXYg681da/5By/MxmciFa4ZTcyqid5e16buvixAikhXs+XHa5QhttI59c8 1yUhQj7qjZoubqTO1MbAtfLW5ofls9AVN8cTrs6rlDpdnKoPqcAuCa9pO8Z/+Xkaj8kh 0Mn6/VAA1AyqAw3ZouNke0CeFi/0T6k6ovkRlyvB8uaZa2YcNjvi28XIxlhjh+IAmY0i VITw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVKOZ7DceleJvy1/wowtdWGkqPOzWp1v3gtDAPzlLniYBC2bLZy /uabLUyJZe1fBFr82VzL/mTRXkVpMKS1ODR2S3Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxTqLvaK9YjbLcR1shNjDAIy38cpY/N/RK2xv0oKNUBgIyPotWszQXjf+xqyHwuaCRoluNyHNWvBXNnntXMVyQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ec81:: with SMTP id k123mr717706oih.123.1566406785242; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <099E6A89-2930-451F-A380-FE969826A434@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <099E6A89-2930-451F-A380-FE969826A434@tzi.org> From: David Kemp Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:57:19 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000021a300590a380c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] An Information-based CBOR schema language? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:59:48 -0000 --000000000000021a300590a380c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hi Carsten, > Thank you for the information and kind words; I look forward to learning about cddl-freezer. A script to translate JADN to JSON Schema is surprisingly brief, about 300 lines of Python, because JSON Schema is JSON. I shied away from doing the same for CDDL because of the many inconveniences of working with text, but using freezer format should make the job much easier. > Since the boundary between information and data models is not strict ... Unfortunately the English language is ambiguous and easily overloaded. Fortunately Shannon provides a more rigorous definition of information than Webster: "My greatest concern was what to call it. I thought of calling it > 'information,' but the word was overly used, so I decided to call it > 'uncertainty.' When I discussed it with John von Neumann, he had a better > idea. Von Neumann told me, 'You should call it entropy, for two reasons. In > the first place your uncertainty function has been used in statistical > mechanics under that name, so it already has a name. In the second place, > and more important, no one really knows what entropy really is, so in a > debate you will always have the advantage.'" There may be a large gray area between information models and data models, but there is a sharp dividing line between information and data: RFC 791 defines the information in an IPv4 address - a network with 2^32 addressable hosts can be addressed using no more than 32 bits of information regardless of how many bits of data are used for that purpose. JADN is more than an "Information Model" language in Webster's sense, it is a "Model of Information" language in the Shannon sense. I believe modeling Shannon information is the critical key to addressing: > Having a single model that maps to both idiomatic JSON and concise CBOR. Respectfully, Dave --000000000000021a300590a380c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Carsten,

Thank you for the i= nformation and kind words; I look forward to learning about cddl-freezer.= =C2=A0 A script to translate JADN to JSON Schema is surprisingly brief, abo= ut 300 lines of Python, because JSON Schema is JSON.=C2=A0 I shied away fro= m doing the same for CDDL because of the many inconveniences of working wit= h text, but using freezer format should make the job much easier.

> Since the boundary between information and data models is not= strict ...

Unfortunately the English language is ambiguous and easi= ly overloaded. Fortunately Shannon provides a more rigorous definition of i= nformation than Webster:

"My greatest concern was what to call it. I thought of calling = it 'information,' but the word was overly used, so I decided to cal= l it 'uncertainty.' When I discussed it with John von Neumann, he h= ad a better idea. Von Neumann told me, 'You should call it entropy, for= two reasons. In the first place your uncertainty function has been used in= statistical mechanics under that name, so it already has a name. In the se= cond place, and more important, no one really knows what entropy really is,= so in a debate you will always have the advantage.'"
=

There may be a large gray area between information models and data= models, but there is a sharp dividing line between information and data: R= FC 791 defines the information in an IPv4 address - a network with 2^32 add= ressable hosts can be addressed using no more than 32 bits of information r= egardless of how many bits of data are used for that purpose.=C2=A0 JADN is= more than an "Information Model" language in Webster's sense= , it is a "Model of Information" language in the Shannon sense.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0I believe modeling Shannon information is the critical key to = addressing:

>=C2=A0 Having a single model that maps to both idiomatic JSON and concise CBOR.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

Respectfully,
Dave
=C2=A0
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:55:32 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "cbor@ietf.org" CC: "cbor-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Intended Status for changed to Proposed Standard Thread-Index: AQHVWF/hcCPb31XLnUynYW6R61i4DacGNlGA Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:55:31 +0000 Message-ID: <62A23E5A-8445-479B-AB2B-B8F6A7586BF2@ericsson.com> References: <156641968295.25678.5305694243758153502.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156641968295.25678.5305694243758153502.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=francesca.palombini@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.219.143] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 04742b78-2fa2-47c8-cfd7-08d72679e7ff x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); 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FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: kXm1L4c4BS+UaQfqWpEhY6JeuY9E2AxMRe9Mfg0X0TqO93q+Vj213O3S9LSb+55mBznmQXMGvpL17BVnSYEVClIDGUwwfAOKD2a1HigzisVZtVm5C/GwI/2WHl+H1n2Hq7mDTUT1e4Uvh+2j4SBsZ9XscFFacty5SOsTGKSgs5chESElGSyMWAj+QPVWJb8FldsAFtD/sJOlA6OBB/RNbT6WdszKhvO24AqyCg18j8lgZVV2OdA3650uQsNXHmoZ+JScAVZAMc33nEnYxMx6raqsN77O1+kzrEG+7+eFnZvgNcGeTXAd22WenSUhyXm9M9iGnyxJJbZo3Z1IzRR2C2eYO5EmCWRwmRVGFiImRnehMFYbW51/G3f3EB9NSikgZiBwYMdr9b0J5OwIor/sjX08chfgJMh+0YYy8ZwQUVI= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1AB40F8C09CF834A888FAED448C8AED3@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 04742b78-2fa2-47c8-cfd7-08d72679e7ff X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Aug 2019 20:55:31.9215 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pxwBKS9fL+M3Pprf8VKVEz6k7A1YqgoIVGsnPs18b0Xr4NHqKqbjNdpeAww9v6Ks6A5qO3hsUgKh9F+nY1CM1DXV2KYOzh6V0J5lPmc/uOTok9uveq8B7hHV00mx5Ga3 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2427 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] FW: Intended Status for changed to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:55:39 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpEdXJpbmcgQUQgcmV2aWV3IG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQsIEFsZXhleSBxdWVz dGlvbmVkIHdoeSB0aGUgaW50ZW5kZWQgc3RhdHVzIG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgd2FzIGluZm9y bWF0aW9uYWwuIFRoZSByZWFzb24gZm9yIHRoYXQgd2FzIHRoYXQgQXJyYXktdGFncyB3YXMgaW50 ZW5kZWQgYXMgYSB0YWdzIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBkb2N1bWVudCBmb3IgdHlwZWQgYXJyYXlzIHRo YXQgYXJlIGRlZmluZWQgZWxzZXdoZXJlLiBCdXQgYmVjYXVzZSBpdCBhbHNvIGRlZmluZXMgMyBv d24gdGFncywgYW5kIGJlY2F1c2Ugd2UgZXhwZWN0IGl0IHRvIGJlIG5vcm1hdGl2ZWx5IHJlZmVy ZW5jZWQgYnkgZnV0dXJlIHN0YW5kYXJkIHRyYWNrIGRvY3VtZW50cywgaXQgbWFrZXMgc2Vuc2Ug dG8gbW92ZSBpdCBmb3J3YXJkIGFzIHByb3Bvc2VkIHN0YW5kYXJkLg0KDQpJZiB5b3UgZG8gbm90 IGFncmVlIHdpdGggdGhhdCwgcGxlYXNlIGxldCB1cyBrbm93LCBiZWZvcmUgdGhlIElFVEYgbGFz dCBjYWxsIG9uIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZW5kcy4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KRnJhbmNlc2NhICYgSmlt DQoNCu+7v09uIDIxLzA4LzIwMTksIDIyOjM0LCAiSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdCIgPGlldGYtc2Vj cmV0YXJpYXQtcmVwbHlAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgSW50ZW5kZWQgU3RhdHVzIGNo YW5nZWQgdG8gUHJvcG9zZWQgU3RhbmRhcmQgZnJvbSBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbmFsDQogICAgDQogICAg VGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBhdA0KICAgIERhdGF0cmFja2VyIFVSTDogaHR0cHM6 Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1jYm9yLWFycmF5LXRhZ3MvDQog ICAgDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Aug 21 21:38:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4FC1200F6; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 21:38:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <156644868612.25739.5581918436446967194@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 21:38:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 04:38:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Tags for Typed Arrays Author : Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2019-08-21 Abstract: The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the CBOR tags defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 22 06:03:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7DB120119; Thu, 22 Aug 2019 06:03:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: CC: draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags@ietf.org, Francesca Palombini , cbor@ietf.org, alexey.melnikov@isode.com, cbor-chairs@ietf.org, francesca.palombini@ericsson.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <156647901067.14781.12281467931711394326.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 06:03:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Last Call: (Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Tags for Typed Arrays) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:03:31 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG (cbor) to consider the following document: - 'Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Tags for Typed Arrays' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-09-05. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. The present document makes use of this extensibility to define a number of CBOR tags for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. It is intended as the reference document for the IANA registration of the CBOR tags defined. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Thu Aug 22 13:05:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903A4120C5D; Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:05:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: cbor@ietf.org, cbor-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <156650431058.14910.3231822272617666961.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:05:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] WG Action: Rechartered Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions (cbor) X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:05:11 -0000 The Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions (cbor) WG in the Applications and Real-Time Area of the IETF has been rechartered. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions (cbor) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Active WG Chairs: Francesca Palombini Jim Schaad Assigned Area Director: Alexey Melnikov Applications and Real-Time Area Directors: Adam Roach Alexey Melnikov Barry Leiba Mailing list: Address: cbor@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor Archive: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cbor/current/maillist.html Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/cbor/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-cbor/ Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR, RFC 7049) extends the JavaScript Object Notation (JSON, RFC 8259) data interchange format to include binary data and an extensibility model, using a binary representation format that is easy to parse correctly. It has been picked up by a number of IETF efforts (e.g., CORE, ANIMA GRASP) as a message format. The CBOR working group will update RFC 7049 to deal with existing errata. Security issues and clarifications may be addressed, but changes to the document will ensure backward compatibility for widespread deployed codebases. The resulting document will be targeted at becoming an Internet Standard. Similar to the way ABNF (RFC 5234/7405) can be used to describe the set of valid messages in a text representation, it is useful for protocol specifications to use a description format for the data in CBOR-encoded messages. The Concise Data Definition Language (CDDL) is such a description technique that has already been used in CORE, ANIMA, CDNI, and efforts outside the IETF. CDDL has been published as RFC 8610. While this specification has been completed, several new features were raised during the update process that were not included, in order not to delay publication, and to allow publication in the Standards Track. One example of such a feature is the ability to combine multiple CDDL files together using a mechanism other than manually concatenating them together for processing. The working group will collect these features as well as other features that are raised by users of CDDL, evaluate their utility and add to a second edition of the specification where warranted. The working group will define the approach to further evolving CDDL as a sequence of editions, which might also add further extension points, probably as part of the introduction of the next edition of the CDDL base specification. The body of existing specifications that make use of CDDL is considered precious, and the WG will set out not to damage their value. The working group will evaluate the necessity of providing advice and guidance for developers using CBOR and CDDL. It is currently expected that this would be done using a Wiki of some type. This work would not be expected to be published by the IETF as an RFC. There are a number of additional CBOR tagged types and CBOR related media type specifications that are currently adopted by the working group, are work items in other working groups, or exist as individual submissions. Additionally, there are expected to be other such documents that will come to the attention of the working group. In some cases, the working group will be asked to adopt and publish these proposals. The working group will evaluate such requests individually and decide about adoption and milestones as such requests arise. Proposals that are deemed to be out of scope for the working group, for example because they are too narrow-purpose of a specification, may still be published as individual submissions or in other groups if there is a specific need. The CBOR group will review these proposals on request. Milestones: Oct 2018 - Submit rfc7049bis to IESG as a Proposed Standard From nobody Fri Aug 23 22:00:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE44120047 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 22:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vgoz5S_8d9TP for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 22:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED8F7120019 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id v38so13291528qtb.0 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hIDYie3Vccbi/iXGXAFyH3azanfIHsVkT4FRD9muCxI=; b=oKmtihPxSOoxgNupkr+AuMydIzy5sSBwmXHIANSOpQa3kb+ibA5vlRCb4q4OWxMel/ 6dy8XeYlCi0VYkhqClMV0tpSrHBX9LCTqnf0kHnK8Jnwzy5d1wsEbdjstjrxAWuy+7qc HmiYdzIfJMFbFt7996gz+uZPriUpMZNB3Oz9t2bH6tn1Eiy+dE4gcC1lG3taUA4Vdngc mXGz8P67xBioeS3J7AfzxO+Pq0HOYVOoWZRTzIqyR97HnycrXz74lURr7y5SpFUA4e0K NrGqih7MD4+VfHxf5XJGAsDZJLQd9ebyrCXyWlKhL71sCX/ykQtGcHR9V0W0OIaOBjPK uKZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hIDYie3Vccbi/iXGXAFyH3azanfIHsVkT4FRD9muCxI=; b=PlNbyvL9FeIEeQ1RGdbEbiHK4w3lUj+dxGeCNH9RFHK7Y20hnQP8Rm8OX/oXisfT1P e7HgoB2UvaSqPh2xPd/f/o/kSi6IQSgDyJET+8dHqrEqMuMOtygzEGW1XuAKP5vXqlwo zcMmGsX6EaHXrVSxtNyxDsYoKdye/xOhk3vkKOy0gjh85YuKEXQ7oEJiMZdpfH1/mxAQ sItnapiyPHD4UwJpJt99T3LpnQtaHcZ2odsSzjJN8Qg302bIZhpDGhmRyfOPvNIORm2X ieXup8FACXuETW4PAob+ljc7vGBhKZLOmko+2CkGssr+gwnVKsBRE5refxXPUBsKyU/k fYgg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUeo3fzNRrX1EWkVv8mCNmiCTpqe7D64Myy77LEyaoWwnMK7gbF e62ttnR2ITkMvTcpqvjtKIyQC+JWpAbH0HdMNp2s1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqynyRYzHxSDs19bQM6jwBiA/J2hQfTfAv6I0wd9ybaNi1+9s52AAR1CToYnOFWcQcWp9e98ecL8CQ0Ktv2A+rs= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2b47:: with SMTP id 7mr8348400qtv.116.1566622815844; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 22:00:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Mattsson Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 07:00:05 +0200 Message-ID: To: cbor@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006f7f4a0590d5ccf9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Starting WGLC on draft-iet-cbor-sequence X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 05:00:19 -0000 --0000000000006f7f4a0590d5ccf9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Quite trivial, but the document could mention that concatenating two CBOR sequences results in a CBOR sequence. /John --0000000000006f7f4a0590d5ccf9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Hi,

Quite trivial, but the document could mention that concatenating two CBOR sequences results in a CBOR sequence.

/John
--0000000000006f7f4a0590d5ccf9-- From nobody Sun Aug 25 02:58:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D10F1200D6 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 02:58:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GVscEUUVmoc for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 02:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa08-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF28312007A for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 02:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.17.0.190] ([45.56.150.72]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 1pHYiSCFeANse1pHYi1Hkx; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 02:57:57 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6E2B8B57-FE5D-433A-ABC1-0CC7EA90D774" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 02:57:56 -0700 To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMNzSyxiQJwy7EV2rcGVA6aK17UFHuoLxsZJj1yLUww3Enflm3eVgMW3QAaeX+OpB3nV1XZsYZBJbbS1iAQC0ZP0LVGHxY5Y78zDKLktXMg7LQnpNh2T bp8A6SDX8setH7TSc+Idy2AmleFN6ZyfA16cg9EPb/XYC9OVR4MYiAHp Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 09:58:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6E2B8B57-FE5D-433A-ABC1-0CC7EA90D774 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s text from section 3.4.5: The exponent e MUST be represented in an integer of major type 0 or 1, while the mantissa also can be a bignum (Section 3.4.4 = ). Contained items with other structures are invalid. For the most part it seems clear. If the second item in the array is not = an integer or a bignum the decimal fraction / big float is invalid. However, I=E2=80=99ve heard comments that tags are only hints and might = be optional if the meaning is clear without them. For example CWT = prohibits using the tag value 1 with =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2= =80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D claims. In the case of a bignum vs an = integer, the meaning is clear without a tag value 2 or 3 explicitly = indicating it is a bignum. Is this a valid decimal fraction? C4 # tag(4) 82 # array(2) 01 # unsigned(1) 42 # bytes(2) 0102 # "\x01\x02" Presumably this is valid, but if we did like CWT, it would be invalid. C4 # tag(4) 82 # array(2) 01 # unsigned(1) C2 # tag(2) 42 # bytes(2) 0102 # "\x01\x02" My inclination would be that they are both valid. If that is the choice, = then decoders MUST handle both and that is not obvious from the text. LL=20 --Apple-Mail=_6E2B8B57-FE5D-433A-ABC1-0CC7EA90D774 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s text from section 3.4.5:

   The exponent e MUST be =
represented in an integer of major
   type 0 or 1, while the mantissa also can be a bignum (Section 3.4.4).
   Contained items with other structures are invalid.

For the most part = it seems clear. If the second item in the array is not an integer or a = bignum the decimal fraction / big float is invalid.

However, I=E2=80=99ve = heard comments that tags are only hints and might be optional if the = meaning is clear without them. For example CWT prohibits using the tag = value 1 with =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciat= =E2=80=9D claims.  In the case of a bignum vs an integer, the = meaning is clear without a tag value 2 or 3 explicitly indicating it is = a bignum.

Is = this a valid decimal fraction?

C4           =  # tag(4)
   82       =   # array(2)
      01   =    # unsigned(1)
      42 =      # bytes(2)
      =    0102 # "\x01\x02"

Presumably this is valid, but if we did = like CWT, it would be invalid.

C4       =         # tag(4)
  =  82            # array(2)
      01         # = unsigned(1)
      C2     =     # tag(2)
        =  42      # bytes(2)
  =           0102 # "\x01\x02"

My inclination would be = that they are both valid. If that is the choice, then decoders MUST = handle both and that is not obvious from the text.

LL 

= --Apple-Mail=_6E2B8B57-FE5D-433A-ABC1-0CC7EA90D774-- From nobody Sun Aug 25 06:19:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602BC1200A1 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 06:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OkVfts2ERI5w for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 06:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 686BB12002E for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 06:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46GbMh42Nzz10Df; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:19:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:19:44 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588431982.117574-51ece754084000b8b280a4d58d43ddca Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> References: To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 13:19:48 -0000 On Aug 25, 2019, at 11:57, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >=20 > My inclination would be that they are both valid. If that is the = choice, then decoders MUST handle both and that is not obvious from the = text. The intent (and the text) of RFC 7049 require that the second element of = the array is either a basic integer (major type 0/1) or a tag 2/3 = bignum. =20 The meaning of your example with a byte string in that position may be = clear to you, but it isn=E2=80=99t to me. (It also isn=E2=80=99t = allowed by RFC 7049.) I would not propose that we start assigning that = meaning to it after the fact. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 25 12:22:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86A8120058 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:22:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55hgVS0KLHg5 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45F7C120026 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 1y5WilZwuuLel1y5XikQnC; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:22:07 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5C1A4C90-F90B-4FF9-AF1D-A3AAEE7F03F6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:22:06 -0700 In-Reply-To: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> Cc: cbor@ietf.org To: Carsten Bormann References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfIQrbBqsV05Kdb7Op9XI5SmSBjRcwQz6svFM+JlFmQW4eVWLijy6ho4po7dVJVbA3uBrcL4W8SiT8fW8ZBfcCqZKjv6P8L3/GAfvKBXnwWGCpGYwDCJb I677t3/GMLEnRN9pcYa+HwFE9z7QmgdXNVBKFZmRGcJzd/hdNmhcc9o6rtsxHX4YRau5L5LqFkMB9A== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:22:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5C1A4C90-F90B-4FF9-AF1D-A3AAEE7F03F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Aug 25, 2019, at 6:19 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Aug 25, 2019, at 11:57, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >>=20 >> My inclination would be that they are both valid. If that is the = choice, then decoders MUST handle both and that is not obvious from the = text. >=20 > The intent (and the text) of RFC 7049 require that the second element = of the array is either a basic integer (major type 0/1) or a tag 2/3 = bignum. =20 >=20 > The meaning of your example with a byte string in that position may be = clear to you, but it isn=E2=80=99t to me. (It also isn=E2=80=99t = allowed by RFC 7049.) I would not propose that we start assigning that = meaning to it after the fact. OK. Tag 2/3 is required.=20 It seemed worth checking to me because of 1) comments and emails during = the recent Prague meeting about tags being hints and optional and 2) CWT = expressly forbidding them. Wanted to be sure there was no assumptions = being made.=20 There seems to be no rule about when tags are present or not. Each = protocol gets to decide between: a) required =E2=80=94 for example decimal fraction b) forbidden =E2=80=94 for example time CWT c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. But understood that a decimal fraction with an untagged big num is = invalid. LL --Apple-Mail=_5C1A4C90-F90B-4FF9-AF1D-A3AAEE7F03F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Aug 25, 2019, at 6:19 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

On Aug 25, 2019, at 11:57, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:

My inclination would be that = they are both valid. If that is the choice, then decoders MUST handle = both and that is not obvious from the text.
The intent (and the text) of RFC 7049 require that the = second element of the array is either a basic integer (major type 0/1) = or a tag 2/3 bignum.  

The meaning of = your example with a byte string in that position may be clear to you, = but it isn=E2=80=99t to me.  (It also isn=E2=80=99t allowed by RFC = 7049.)  I would not propose that we start assigning that meaning to = it after the fact.

OK. Tag 2/3 is required. 

It seemed worth checking to me because of 1) = comments and emails during the recent Prague meeting about tags being = hints and optional and 2) CWT expressly forbidding them. Wanted to be = sure there was no assumptions being made. 

There seems to be no rule about when tags are = present or not. Each protocol gets to decide between:
a) required =E2=80=94 for example decimal = fraction
b) forbidden =E2=80=94 for example time = CWT
c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an = example)

A good generic = decoders will handle all three, probably with some feature in the API to = say which of the above scenarios to use.

But understood that a decimal fraction = with an untagged big num is invalid.

LL

= --Apple-Mail=_5C1A4C90-F90B-4FF9-AF1D-A3AAEE7F03F6-- From nobody Sun Aug 25 12:45:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E6E12004D for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:45:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10MfLhFLK8mW for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AF3312004A for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46Glwd3cYRz10Df; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:45:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:45:21 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588455117.500596-e9ce9c989f5ca274ff1ceab3470de59d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:45:26 -0000 On Aug 25, 2019, at 21:22, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: > [=E2=80=A6] OK. Tag 2/3 is required.=20 >=20 > It seemed worth checking to me because of 1) comments and emails = during the recent Prague meeting about tags being hints and optional and That language is a bit weird. Tags are elements of the CBOR data model. Their use is indeed optional, like with any other element of the CBOR = data model. Some applications may be able to make sense of a CBOR data item while = ignoring Tags that actually are present, but this requires a lot of = foresight on the side of the application designer. I don=E2=80=99t know why Tags would be =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D in a = general sense (well, some of them are designed to be exactly that, but = that is then the semantics of that specific Tag =E2=80=94 e.g., JSON = encoding hints). > 2) CWT expressly forbidding them. That is not the case at all. Only those 7 claims defined in RFC 8392 are defined to not use Tags = (because they don=E2=80=99t need them, and nothing is gained by allowing = them). I cite from Section 5 of RFC 8392: =E2=80=A6 this does not prohibit future claim definitions from requiring the use of CBOR tags for those specific claims. > Wanted to be sure there was no assumptions being made.=20 >=20 > There seems to be no rule about when tags are present or not. Each = protocol gets to decide between: > a) required =E2=80=94 for example decimal fraction > b) forbidden =E2=80=94 for example time CWT CWT can do that because the exp/nbf/iat claims are simply defined that = way. There is nothing =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D here. If you really want = to use this word, you are also =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to tag a = claim 1 (=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D) as a URI (or as a geographic coordinate, = for that matter) =E2=80=94 this claim always gets a text string. (Note that CWT defines Tag 61 as =E2=80=9CCWT=E2=80=9D and also uses = COSE Tags, which makes it even more obvious Tags are not =E2=80=9Cforbidde= n=E2=80=9D with CWT.) > c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D = Tags: Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or greater than = 2**64 do. > A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded data item, = the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden. .oOo. I think that these are good comments, because they can help us get rid = of some weasel wording in RFC 7049. (In 2013, the concept of Tags was = somewhat revolutionary, and maybe the authors were a bit too cautious = foisting it on the CBOR community. By now, people have become familiar = with Tags, so maybe we can say in simpler words how they work.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 25 12:51:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228731200F7 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mrR4XQq0pzs8 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B217012004A for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46Gm3Y1cMvzySC; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:51:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:51:20 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588455477.770811-692baf319c5538e5a84b529743237466 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8109BCE5-60EA-4D33-A2CA-4A5BE2075891@tzi.org> References: <030e01d552b8$c7c9d110$575d7330$@augustcellars.com> To: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Starting WGLC on draft-iet-cbor-sequence X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:51:24 -0000 On Aug 14, 2019, at 17:56, Jim Schaad wrote: >=20 > We should discuss any open issues at the interim call on Aug 28. I have put proposals on how to handle the first five WGLC comments into = the Editor=E2=80=99s copy: Please see individual commits at: https://github.com/cbor-wg/seq/commits/master All diffs: = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf= -cbor-sequence.txt&url2=3Dhttps://cbor-wg.github.io/seq/draft-ietf-cbor-se= quence.txt Editor=E2=80=99s copy: https://cbor-wg.github.io/seq/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence.html Please keep those useful comments coming! I plan to address anything = that comes in on Monday or Tuesday in time for the Wednesday interim. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 25 14:04:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAC7120020 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9VbkQKOJbvP for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71762120013 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 1zgaiHv5Ac5iz1zgaigFKU; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:04:28 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <09A5B3BF-28F1-4543-89E6-DCD8CCA0477B@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BCAC2D86-90A3-45CA-8EC1-81C4E23CD9C9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:04:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org To: Carsten Bormann References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCFyiXriB0lc7HHGoj6SSfFypiDdS42xbsvqcpX5uoy1Jy7iOYct2vPU2z6oVDzffQ2zANm+kj8mNIyJXgvIRqXujYHEuteqgKNUD7NaZBy8dxigZRGV 3FzT7V/RpuVPl5QjIDtFqDlNlqcdmTpqcgmvvBhwrpwuE9f07TWau/OCsR7byJND3Ie18kwvDCdvUg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:04:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BCAC2D86-90A3-45CA-8EC1-81C4E23CD9C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Aug 25, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Aug 25, 2019, at 21:22, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >> [=E2=80=A6] OK. Tag 2/3 is required.=20 >>=20 >> It seemed worth checking to me because of 1) comments and emails = during the recent Prague meeting about tags being hints and optional and >=20 > That language is a bit weird. >=20 > Tags are elements of the CBOR data model. > Their use is indeed optional, like with any other element of the CBOR = data model. > Some applications may be able to make sense of a CBOR data item while = ignoring Tags that actually are present, but this requires a lot of = foresight on the side of the application designer. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t know why Tags would be =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D in a = general sense (well, some of them are designed to be exactly that, but = that is then the semantics of that specific Tag =E2=80=94 e.g., JSON = encoding hints). Yes, I misused the word =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D here. >> 2) CWT expressly forbidding them. >=20 > That is not the case at all. > Only those 7 claims defined in RFC 8392 are defined to not use Tags = (because they don=E2=80=99t need them, and nothing is gained by allowing = them). I mean forbids them only for the claims it defines: The claim values defined in this specification MUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag. For instance, while CBOR tag 1 (epoch-based date/ time) could logically be prefixed to values of the "exp", "nbf", and "iat" claims Digging in a little deeper=E2=80=A6 The claims =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 are defined by reference to = NumericDate in JWT. They are not actually defined as a CBOR tag 1 date = without a tag. This makes the comment about them not being tagged in = 8392 a bit mis guided (but not problematic). CWT aside, by my understanding, it is allowed for CBOR protocols to make = use of the data types defined in =E2=80=9COptional Tagging of Items=E2=80=9D= section of 7049 without explicitly adding a tag.=20 For example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim labeled = =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D is a tag 1 epoch-based date as defined in = 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is allowed for = use of the tag 1. Right? Since the data type is known from the map label = / key any of a), b) or c) will work. Maybe a bit more guidance on selecting between a), b) and c) in a = protocol design would be useful? > I cite from Section 5 of RFC 8392: >=20 > =E2=80=A6 this does not prohibit future claim > definitions from requiring the use of CBOR tags for those specific > claims. Agreed >> Wanted to be sure there was no assumptions being made.=20 >>=20 >> There seems to be no rule about when tags are present or not. Each = protocol gets to decide between: >> a) required =E2=80=94 for example decimal fraction >> b) forbidden =E2=80=94 for example time CWT >=20 > CWT can do that because the exp/nbf/iat claims are simply defined that = way. > There is nothing =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D here. If you really want = to use this word, you are also =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to tag a = claim 1 (=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D) as a URI (or as a geographic coordinate, = for that matter) =E2=80=94 this claim always gets a text string. > (Note that CWT defines Tag 61 as =E2=80=9CCWT=E2=80=9D and also uses = COSE Tags, which makes it even more obvious Tags are not =E2=80=9Cforbidde= n=E2=80=9D with CWT.) When CWT says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D, = it sounds semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to me. >> c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) >=20 > Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D = Tags: > Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or greater than = 2**64 do. >=20 >> A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. >=20 > Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded data item, = the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden. Generic decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder itself. Mine = does. That means those types of generic decoders have to know about case = a), b) and c). As the number of data types expands and becomes more = useful, having generic decoders handle them seems beneficial.=20 > .oOo. >=20 > I think that these are good comments, because they can help us get rid = of some weasel wording in RFC 7049. (In 2013, the concept of Tags was = somewhat revolutionary, and maybe the authors were a bit too cautious = foisting it on the CBOR community. By now, people have become familiar = with Tags, so maybe we can say in simpler words how they work.) Despite my nit picking, I really do like CBOR a lot LL= --Apple-Mail=_BCAC2D86-90A3-45CA-8EC1-81C4E23CD9C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Aug 25, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

On Aug 25, 2019, at 21:22, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
[=E2=80=A6] OK. Tag 2/3 is required.

It seemed worth checking to me because of 1) = comments and emails during the recent Prague meeting about tags being = hints and optional and

That = language is a bit weird.

Tags are elements = of the CBOR data model.
Their use is indeed optional, like = with any other element of the CBOR data model.
Some = applications may be able to make sense of a CBOR data item while = ignoring Tags that actually are present, but this requires a lot of = foresight on the side of the application designer.

I don=E2=80=99t know why Tags would be =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D = in a general sense (well, some of them are designed to be exactly that, = but that is then the semantics of that specific Tag =E2=80=94 e.g., JSON = encoding hints).

Yes, I misused the word =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D = here.


2) CWT expressly forbidding them.

That is not the case at all.
Only those 7 claims defined in RFC 8392 are defined to not = use Tags (because they don=E2=80=99t need them, and nothing is gained by = allowing them).

I mean forbids them only for the claims it = defines:

   The claim values defined in =
this specification MUST NOT be prefixed
   with any CBOR tag. For instance, while CBOR tag 1 (epoch-based =
date/
   time) could logically be prefixed to values of the "exp", =
"nbf", and
   "iat" claims

Digging in a little deeper=E2=80=A6

The claims =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6= are defined by reference to NumericDate in JWT. They are not = actually defined as a CBOR tag 1 date without a tag. This makes the = comment about them not being tagged in 8392 a bit mis guided (but not = problematic).

CWT aside, by my understanding, it is allowed for CBOR = protocols to make use of the data types defined in =E2=80=9COptional = Tagging of Items=E2=80=9D section of 7049 without explicitly adding a = tag. 

For = example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim labeled = =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D  is a tag 1 epoch-based date as defined = in 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is allowed = for use of the tag 1. Right? Since the data type is known from the map = label / key any of a), b) or c) will work.

Maybe a bit more guidance on selecting = between a), b) and c) in a protocol design would be useful?


I cite from Section 5 of RFC 8392:

=E2=80=A6  this does not prohibit future claim
  definitions from requiring the use of CBOR tags = for those specific
  claims.

Agreed


Wanted to be sure there = was no assumptions being made.

There seems = to be no rule about when tags are present or not. Each protocol gets to = decide between:
a) required =E2=80=94 for example decimal = fraction
b) forbidden =E2=80=94 for example time CWT

CWT can do that because the = exp/nbf/iat claims are simply defined that way.
There is = nothing =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D here.  If you really want to = use this word, you are also =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to tag a claim 1 = (=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D) as a URI (or as a geographic coordinate, for = that matter) =E2=80=94 this claim always gets a text string.
(Note that CWT defines Tag 61 as =E2=80=9CCWT=E2=80=9D and = also uses COSE Tags, which makes it even more obvious Tags are not = =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D with CWT.)

When = CWT says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D, it = sounds semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to = me.


c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of = an example)

Any protocol that = uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D Tags:
Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or = greater than 2**64 do.

A good generic decoders will handle all three, = probably with some feature in the API to say which of the above = scenarios to use.

Since the = generic decoder hands the application the decoded data item, the = application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden.

Generic= decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder itself. Mine does. = That means those types of generic decoders have to know about case a), = b) and c). As the number of data types expands and becomes more useful, = having generic decoders handle them seems = beneficial. 


= = = .oOo.

I think that these are good = comments, because they can help us get rid of some weasel wording in RFC = 7049.  (In 2013, the concept of Tags was somewhat revolutionary, = and maybe the authors were a bit too cautious foisting it on the CBOR = community.  By now, people have become familiar with Tags, so maybe = we can say in simpler words how they work.)


Despite my nit picking, I really do like CBOR a = lot

LL
= --Apple-Mail=_BCAC2D86-90A3-45CA-8EC1-81C4E23CD9C9-- From nobody Sun Aug 25 14:32:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE65120044 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:32:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x6xz4HOfyoXs for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF7AB120020 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46GpJS6LQVz10FH; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:32:40 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <09A5B3BF-28F1-4543-89E6-DCD8CCA0477B@island-resort.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:32:40 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588461558.42977-6ef48e321a65ad5eab2774a5c3d32e1f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> <09A5B3BF-28F1-4543-89E6-DCD8CCA0477B@island-resort.com> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:32:45 -0000 > CWT aside, by my understanding, it is allowed for CBOR protocols to = make use of the data types defined in =E2=80=9COptional Tagging of = Items=E2=80=9D section of 7049 without explicitly adding a tag.=20 Absolutely. Making that easier to do was one reason we introduced ~ = (unwrap) in CDDL. >=20 > For example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim labeled = =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D is a tag 1 epoch-based date as defined in = 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is allowed for = use of the tag 1. Right? Well, EAT should simply say what the claim is. There is no need for = a/b/c here. Either you use the tag or just its definition of the semantics applied = to the enclosed data item; I can=E2=80=99t imagine a case where anything = is gained by allowing both. > When CWT says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D, = it sounds semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to me. Yes. But it=E2=80=99s not that CWT forbids tags, it is that it defines = the first seven claims for CWT in a way that does not make use of tags. = It would be as misleading to say that =E2=80=9CCOSE is forbidden in = CWT=E2=80=9D because the first seven claims don=E2=80=99t use COSE. >>> c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) >>=20 >> Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D = Tags: >> Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or greater than = 2**64 do. >>=20 >>> A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. >>=20 >> Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded data = item, the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden. >=20 > Generic decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder itself. They never can for all tags, because all tags haven=E2=80=99t been = invented yet. > Mine does. That means those types of generic decoders have to know = about case a), b) and c). I still don=E2=80=99t think so. That would only be the case if the = decoder doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D the tag, but = =E2=80=9Chides=E2=80=9D it. That would indeed lead to problems. > Despite my nit picking, I really do like CBOR a lot Thanks. We need to have these discussions to ensure we don=E2=80=99t = have language in the spec that turns out to be misleading. I just = pushed a pull request for CBORbis that massively rearranges the language = around tags, please have a look: https://github.com/cbor-wg/CBORbis/pull/109 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 25 16:27:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40DE512081A; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:27:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <156677566817.31076.12621272507652985483@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:27:48 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:27:48 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Authors : Carsten Bormann Paul Hoffman Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07.txt Pages : 64 Date : 2019-08-25 Abstract: The Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) is a data format whose design goals include the possibility of extremely small code size, fairly small message size, and extensibility without the need for version negotiation. These design goals make it different from earlier binary serializations such as ASN.1 and MessagePack. This document is a revised edition of RFC 7049, with editorial improvements, added detail, and fixed errata. This revision formally obsoletes RFC 7049, while keeping full compatibility of the interchange format from RFC 7049. It does not create a new version of the format. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Aug 25 16:32:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3F712081D for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G7rQ9CbCS15y for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppa3.lax.icann.org (ppa3.lax.icann.org [192.0.33.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 340401200C4 for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PFE112-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (out.west.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.7]) by ppa3.lax.icann.org (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with ESMTPS id x7PNWiEY013370 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:32:44 GMT Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-2.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:32:42 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:32:42 -0700 From: Paul Hoffman To: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07 and tags Thread-Index: AQHVW51jyHLDfdl37kWhXenaqeXKCA== Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:32:41 +0000 Message-ID: <8D802AE7-80E8-464A-B9A2-E29FAFF8915F@icann.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] x-source-routing-agent: Processed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7FC587635AA54547A921224765CE3261@pexch112.icann.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-08-25_14:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-07 and tags X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:32:46 -0000 Greetings again. During the recent discussion of tags and "optional", as we= ll as from many earlier discussions of tags, it became clear that we needed= more precise definitions of tags in the main CBOR document. We hope that t= his recent rev clears that up. There are a lot of small changes (including = a few that are not tag-related), so please review the diffs carefully. Than= ks again for all your reviews! --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Mon Aug 26 14:13:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED1A120838; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:13:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Linda Dunbar via Datatracker To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Linda Dunbar Message-ID: <156685401011.2445.14133716361884032697@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:13:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 21:13:30 -0000 Reviewer: Linda Dunbar Review result: Ready I am the assigned Ops area reviewer for this draft. The Ops directorate reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This document is pretty straight forward, specifying a number of CBOR tags to be registered in IANA, with their values specified in Table 3, for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. The description is clear. Linda Dunbar From nobody Mon Aug 26 14:13:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3362E120852; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:13:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Linda Dunbar via Datatracker To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Linda Dunbar Message-ID: <156685401016.2457.15068604256638812593@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:13:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-cbor-array-tags-07 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 21:13:30 -0000 Reviewer: Linda Dunbar Review result: Ready I am the assigned Ops area reviewer for this draft. The Ops directorate reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This document is pretty straight forward, specifying a number of CBOR tags to be registered in IANA, with their values specified in Table 3, for typed arrays of numeric data, as well as two additional tags for multi-dimensional and homogeneous arrays. The description is clear. Linda Dunbar From nobody Tue Aug 27 09:11:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02062120881 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:11:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDVqu_UvfNPZ for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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HE1PR0701MB2748.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.168.189.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2220.11; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:10:59 +0000 Received: from HE1PR0701MB2746.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f07a:c3ba:6052:df59]) by HE1PR0701MB2746.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f07a:c3ba:6052:df59%10]) with mapi id 15.20.2199.021; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:10:59 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "cbor@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: CBOR Interim: 2019-08-28 Thread-Index: AQHVXPIDTeh5FpfCNkeAY2LPjsyBAQ== Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:10:59 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=francesca.palombini@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.219.143] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4ba129a9-02a8-4330-af5d-08d72b09268a x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C93012081D for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:31:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGMFqMHSMmaO for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EC2D12010C for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.114.0.202] ([45.56.150.42]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 2pboiIab4EzID2pboihjdT; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:31:00 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <6D9351E2-D9BE-4650-A5DC-1E4897F48939@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A2746C77-8B7B-4DB5-AE32-160DEB7BC390" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:30:59 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org To: Carsten Bormann References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> <09A5B3BF-28F1-4543-89E6-DCD8CCA0477B@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEO+ytLOBtsM4geWoTwiPc7yGu6r4odvg3k+THaCj2ssIlQyzAAYwUpprVaTF9Ew9HaldcMDcZVKXO/SiF6Ru69pi9v4zGLaxeCjK6s9+NqJ5cfMdsK4 nOiHhH+4mFLFiIhmAp8sweBiyY0RMykvumTq6rjMTo2fkKJmWerPhDnGIuDC4/oZU1lToOGRKuHzUA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 04:31:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A2746C77-8B7B-4DB5-AE32-160DEB7BC390 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here's text I think might be useful to add to the Creating CBOR-based = Protocols section: Protocols using data types defined in the section Tagging of Items = section can use them with explicit tags (type 6 enclosing data items) or = with no tag and their type implied (no type 6 enclosing data item). If = there is no explicit tag, the protocol design should be sure the data = type can be unambiguously recognized in all use case. This is often = accomplished by saying a member of a map with a particular label is = always of a particular type. Explicit tagging should only be used when it is actually necessary to = clearly distinguish the type. Some protocol designs may forbid explicit tagging of particular data = items. Protocol designs should directly state whether explicit tagging is = required, disallowed or optional for each use of these data types. One of the reasons I=E2=80=99m bring this up is that in a way section = 3.4 Tagging of Items has the horse before the cart. The definition of = the new data types seems more important than the tagging as the tagging = is the optional part. Alternative titles for the section might be = Additional Data Types or Compound Data Types. The somewhat unclear (to = me) characterization of the optionality of tagging is why I asked about = tags in decimal fractions. I think it is useful and practical for generic decoders to directly = support tagged data types rather than just passing them on to the caller = with the tag. In some cases the tagged data types may have natural representations in = the language or the platform (e.g. time formats). In some cases the = tagged data types are complex enough that some CBOR expertise it helpful = (e.g., array tags) when implementing. The decoder author might also want = to encapsulate more of CBOR so the caller doesn=E2=80=99t have to know = as much about CBOR. Obviously, it can=E2=80=99t be for tags that aren=E2=80=99t invented = yet, some tagged data types have use that is too narrow, and some may be = poorly designed in the opinion of the author of the decoder. Generic = decoders should also support the caller implementing tagged data types = on their own and a mode to pass tags through. That=E2=80=99s all just my view and no particular issue with the text. I = mention it in part to say that generic decoders supporting tagged data = types may wish to have features in their API to handle explicit / = implicit tagging. LL > On Aug 25, 2019, at 2:32 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >=20 >> CWT aside, by my understanding, it is allowed for CBOR protocols to = make use of the data types defined in =E2=80=9COptional Tagging of = Items=E2=80=9D section of 7049 without explicitly adding a tag.=20 >=20 > Absolutely. Making that easier to do was one reason we introduced ~ = (unwrap) in CDDL. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> For example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim labeled = =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D is a tag 1 epoch-based date as defined in = 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is allowed for = use of the tag 1. Right? >=20 > Well, EAT should simply say what the claim is. There is no need for = a/b/c here. > Either you use the tag or just its definition of the semantics applied = to the enclosed data item; I can=E2=80=99t imagine a case where anything = is gained by allowing both. >=20 >> When CWT says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D,= it sounds semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to me. >=20 > Yes. But it=E2=80=99s not that CWT forbids tags, it is that it = defines the first seven claims for CWT in a way that does not make use = of tags. It would be as misleading to say that =E2=80=9CCOSE is = forbidden in CWT=E2=80=9D because the first seven claims don=E2=80=99t = use COSE. >=20 >>>> c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) >>>=20 >>> Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D = Tags: >>> Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or greater = than 2**64 do. >>>=20 >>>> A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. >>>=20 >>> Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded data = item, the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden. >>=20 >> Generic decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder itself. >=20 > They never can for all tags, because all tags haven=E2=80=99t been = invented yet. >=20 >> Mine does. That means those types of generic decoders have to know = about case a), b) and c). >=20 > I still don=E2=80=99t think so. That would only be the case if the = decoder doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D the tag, but = =E2=80=9Chides=E2=80=9D it. That would indeed lead to problems. >=20 >> Despite my nit picking, I really do like CBOR a lot >=20 > Thanks. We need to have these discussions to ensure we don=E2=80=99t = have language in the spec that turns out to be misleading. I just = pushed a pull request for CBORbis that massively rearranges the language = around tags, please have a look: >=20 > https://github.com/cbor-wg/CBORbis/pull/109 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor --Apple-Mail=_A2746C77-8B7B-4DB5-AE32-160DEB7BC390 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Here's text I think might be useful to add to the= Creating CBOR-based Protocols section:

Protocols using data types = defined in the section Tagging of Items section = can use them with explicit tags (type 6 enclosing data items) or with no = tag and their type implied (no type 6 enclosing data item). If there is = no explicit tag, the protocol design should be sure the data type can be = unambiguously recognized in all use case. This is often accomplished by = saying a member of a map with a particular label is always of a = particular type.

Explicit tagging should only be used when it is actually = necessary to clearly distinguish the type.

Some protocol designs may forbid = explicit tagging of particular data items.

Protocol designs should directly state = whether explicit tagging is required, disallowed or optional for each = use of these data types.

One of the reasons I=E2=80=99m bring this = up is that in a way section 3.4 Tagging of = Items  has the horse before the cart. The definition of = the new data types seems more important than the tagging as the tagging = is the optional part. Alternative titles for the section might = be Additional Data Types or Compound Data Types. The somewhat unclear (to me) = characterization of the optionality of tagging is why I asked about = tags in decimal fractions.


I think it is = useful and practical for generic decoders to directly support tagged = data types rather than just passing them on to the caller with the = tag.

In some cases the tagged data types may have natural = representations in the language or the platform (e.g. time formats). In = some cases the tagged data types are complex enough that some CBOR = expertise it helpful (e.g., array tags) when implementing. The decoder = author might also want to encapsulate more of CBOR so the caller = doesn=E2=80=99t have to know as much about CBOR.

Obviously, it can=E2=80=99t be for tags = that aren=E2=80=99t invented yet, some tagged data types have use that = is too narrow, and some may be poorly designed in the opinion of the = author of the decoder. Generic decoders should also support the caller = implementing tagged data types on their own and a mode to pass tags = through.

That=E2=80=99= s all just my view and no particular issue with the text. I mention it = in part to say that generic decoders supporting tagged data types may = wish to have features in their API to handle explicit / implicit = tagging.

LL




On Aug 25, 2019, at 2:32 PM, = Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:


CWT aside, by my = understanding, it is allowed for CBOR protocols to make use of the data = types defined in =E2=80=9COptional Tagging of Items=E2=80=9D section of = 7049 without explicitly adding a tag.

Absolutely.  Making that easier to do was one reason we = introduced ~ (unwrap) in CDDL.



For = example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim labeled = =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D  is a tag 1 epoch-based date as defined = in 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is allowed = for use of the tag 1. Right?

Well, EAT should simply say what the claim is.  There is = no need for a/b/c here.
Either you use the tag or just its = definition of the semantics applied to the enclosed data item; I can=E2=80= =99t imagine a case where anything is gained by allowing both.

When CWT = says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D, it sounds = semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to me.

Yes.  But it=E2=80=99s not = that CWT forbids tags, it is that it defines the first seven claims for = CWT in a way that does not make use of tags.  It would be as = misleading to say that =E2=80=9CCOSE is forbidden in CWT=E2=80=9D = because the first seven claims don=E2=80=99t use COSE.

c) optional =E2=80=94 (I = don=E2=80=99t know of an example)

Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2= =80=9D Tags:
Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers = equal to or greater than 2**64 do.

A good generic decoders = will handle all three, probably with some feature in the API to say = which of the above scenarios to use.

Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded = data item, the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden.

Generic decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder = itself.

They never can for all = tags, because all tags haven=E2=80=99t been invented yet.

Mine = does. That means those types of generic decoders have to know about case = a), b) and c).

I still don=E2=80= =99t think so.  That would only be the case if the decoder = doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D the tag, but =E2=80=9Chides=E2=80= =9D it.  That would indeed lead to problems.

Despite my nit picking, = I really do like CBOR a lot

Thanks.  We need to have these discussions to ensure we = don=E2=80=99t have language in the spec that turns out to be misleading. =  I just pushed a pull request for CBORbis that massively rearranges = the language around tags, please have a look:

https://github.com/cbor-wg/CBORbis/pull/109

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
CBOR mailing list
CBOR@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor

= --Apple-Mail=_A2746C77-8B7B-4DB5-AE32-160DEB7BC390-- From nobody Tue Aug 27 22:11:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26DD120835 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 22:11:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WCup7v_9Rs2d for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 22:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5785120832 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 22:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46JDNz1CNvz108Z; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:11:31 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6D9351E2-D9BE-4650-A5DC-1E4897F48939@island-resort.com> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:11:30 +0200 Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588661888.2526979-8e6bc07246045989dd39dcaecfe22ba0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> <09A5B3BF-28F1-4543-89E6-DCD8CCA0477B@island-resort.com> <6D9351E2-D9BE-4650-A5DC-1E4897F48939@island-resort.com> To: Laurence Lundblade X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 05:11:36 -0000 Hi Laurence, good point. However, tagging is tagging, there can be no tagging without tagging. So =E2=80=9Cimplicit tagging=E2=80=9D is an oxymoron to me. What we could say: The data types that are being defined in the form of CBOR tag = definitions may also be useful to data definition languages, which may = provide a way to employ the type definitions at specific locations = identified by their context by means of the data definition language, = without a representation of the actual tag being exchanged (for = instance, the =E2=80=9Cunwrap=E2=80=9D operator defined for CDDL in = Section 3.7 of RFC 8610 can be used for this purpose: `~time` could = stand for a number representing a Posix time without actually encoding = Tag 1). A CBOR-based protocol definition based on such a data definition = language may still want to employ tags to enable automatic processing of = tags in generic decoders, and to provide a distinguishing semantics = where needed (e.g., to distinguish a time from another use of numbers = possible in the same place). Generic decoders may want to provide their tag data processing = capabilities (e.g., converting a number into a time) in an unbundled = form to the application in order to enable the processing of such data = types identified by context, and not by an explicit tag. (Unrelated:) A CBOR-based protocol definition will typically define exactly where = tags are and are not to be used, just as with other containers such as = arrays and maps (giving rise to a =E2=80=9Cstructural=E2=80=9D view of = application level validity). Alternatively, it could describe its protocol in terms of the data types = that are conceptually =E2=80=9Creturned=E2=80=9D by a tag, e.g., it = could treat all arrays the same, independently of whether they are = represented as classical CBOR arrays or as typed arrays created by = specific tags [I-D.ietf-cbor-array-tags]; we could term this as a = =E2=80=9Csemantic=E2=80=9D view of application level validity. Note = that the present specification does not define a =E2=80=9Csemantic=E2=80=9D= type system that could be employed for this; such definitions are left = to further work. The above needs a lot more word smithing (and may benefit from creating = contexts where it is easier to say these things), but you get the idea = where I think this should be heading. Generic decoders will always need to be able to hand (e.g., unknown) = tags to the application in an unprocessed manner. Where processing *is* = performed, it may be necessary to indicate to the application that a tag = was employed (to keep the distinguishing semantics), except where we = explicitly exclude this (e.g., bignums should never be used with = distinguishing semantics). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Aug 28, 2019, at 06:30, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >=20 > Here's text I think might be useful to add to the Creating CBOR-based = Protocols section: >=20 > Protocols using data types defined in the section Tagging of Items = section can use them with explicit tags (type 6 enclosing data items) or = with no tag and their type implied (no type 6 enclosing data item). If = there is no explicit tag, the protocol design should be sure the data = type can be unambiguously recognized in all use case. This is often = accomplished by saying a member of a map with a particular label is = always of a particular type. >=20 > Explicit tagging should only be used when it is actually necessary to = clearly distinguish the type. >=20 > Some protocol designs may forbid explicit tagging of particular data = items. >=20 > Protocol designs should directly state whether explicit tagging is = required, disallowed or optional for each use of these data types. >=20 > One of the reasons I=E2=80=99m bring this up is that in a way section = 3.4 Tagging of Items has the horse before the cart. The definition of = the new data types seems more important than the tagging as the tagging = is the optional part. Alternative titles for the section might be = Additional Data Types or Compound Data Types. The somewhat unclear (to = me) characterization of the optionality of tagging is why I asked about = tags in decimal fractions. >=20 >=20 > I think it is useful and practical for generic decoders to directly = support tagged data types rather than just passing them on to the caller = with the tag. >=20 > In some cases the tagged data types may have natural representations = in the language or the platform (e.g. time formats). In some cases the = tagged data types are complex enough that some CBOR expertise it helpful = (e.g., array tags) when implementing. The decoder author might also want = to encapsulate more of CBOR so the caller doesn=E2=80=99t have to know = as much about CBOR. >=20 > Obviously, it can=E2=80=99t be for tags that aren=E2=80=99t invented = yet, some tagged data types have use that is too narrow, and some may be = poorly designed in the opinion of the author of the decoder. Generic = decoders should also support the caller implementing tagged data types = on their own and a mode to pass tags through. >=20 > That=E2=80=99s all just my view and no particular issue with the text. = I mention it in part to say that generic decoders supporting tagged data = types may wish to have features in their API to handle explicit / = implicit tagging. >=20 > LL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Aug 25, 2019, at 2:32 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> CWT aside, by my understanding, it is allowed for CBOR protocols to = make use of the data types defined in =E2=80=9COptional Tagging of = Items=E2=80=9D section of 7049 without explicitly adding a tag.=20 >>=20 >> Absolutely. Making that easier to do was one reason we introduced ~ = (unwrap) in CDDL. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> For example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim = labeled =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D is a tag 1 epoch-based date as = defined in 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is = allowed for use of the tag 1. Right? >>=20 >> Well, EAT should simply say what the claim is. There is no need for = a/b/c here. >> Either you use the tag or just its definition of the semantics = applied to the enclosed data item; I can=E2=80=99t imagine a case where = anything is gained by allowing both. >>=20 >>> When CWT says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D= , it sounds semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to me. >>=20 >> Yes. But it=E2=80=99s not that CWT forbids tags, it is that it = defines the first seven claims for CWT in a way that does not make use = of tags. It would be as misleading to say that =E2=80=9CCOSE is = forbidden in CWT=E2=80=9D because the first seven claims don=E2=80=99t = use COSE. >>=20 >>>>> c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) >>>>=20 >>>> Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D= Tags: >>>> Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or greater = than 2**64 do. >>>>=20 >>>>> A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. >>>>=20 >>>> Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded data = item, the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden. >>>=20 >>> Generic decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder itself. >>=20 >> They never can for all tags, because all tags haven=E2=80=99t been = invented yet. >>=20 >>> Mine does. That means those types of generic decoders have to know = about case a), b) and c). >>=20 >> I still don=E2=80=99t think so. That would only be the case if the = decoder doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D the tag, but = =E2=80=9Chides=E2=80=9D it. That would indeed lead to problems. >>=20 >>> Despite my nit picking, I really do like CBOR a lot >>=20 >> Thanks. We need to have these discussions to ensure we don=E2=80=99t = have language in the spec that turns out to be misleading. I just = pushed a pull request for CBORbis that massively rearranges the language = around tags, please have a look: >>=20 >> https://github.com/cbor-wg/CBORbis/pull/109 >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> CBOR mailing list >> CBOR@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 28 12:29:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAED120074 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:29:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7JdCDknN15La for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92439120041 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:29:23 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:29:21 -0700 Message-ID: <01d401d55dd6$e5ee1e70$b1ca5b50$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdVd1OCIe6Nv/zJjQoGIwcM2gy/V1g== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] BCP document for CBOR X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 19:29:32 -0000 During the interim call today, as Carsten was going through the set of open issues, it dawned on me that a good number of the issues that he was covering today might be better placed in a BCP document rather than in the CBOR standard. Some of the issues that seem to me to be better suited for a BCP would be 1. Some parts of Issue #63 about the choices an application can make for dealing with duplicate keys. The security considerations would need to stay in the main document, this would just be a discussion of the trade-offs between the three choices presented in the issue along with a recommendation. 2. Possibly Issue #67 which deals with how protocols should deal with unexpected tags and simple values. The core document would probably just say returned in some form, but more information about this might go into a BCP 3. Issue #68 which discusses the trade offs of using different types of keys for maps. This text could just move from the core document into the BCP and thus it would be easier to change later as we get more experience. 4. Issue #77 which talks about the JSON to CBOR conversion of numbers into either integers or floats. This could also discuss the differences between "pure" JSON and I-JSON where 53 bits of precision is much more explicit 5. Potentially some of the issues around strict might move into this document where the advice could potentially change in the future. 6. Some of the text around #92 could end up here. The recommendation that it not be done should be in the Expert Review considerations, but potentially a discussion of why it may want to be done could go into the BCP document. I have a feeling that this advice might change at some point but I don't know that. 7. Issue #94 which is dealing with NaN where a generic recommendation would be in the main document, but suggestions on how applications might want to use the different types of NaNs might show up. What do other people in the WG think of this proposal? If the proposal were to be adopted, are there people who are interested in writing/editing the document? Jim From nobody Wed Aug 28 12:57:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E244120831 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:57:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nE7QpOLKPMsR for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-xc33.google.com (mail-yw1-xc33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8CB412089C for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-xc33.google.com with SMTP id n69so311789ywd.12 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Jrw1fBqhnPfmA8bUsQqdwc90jILufBynR6DnWtnWRuI=; b=VQA3Ue/cfmaQDejSrBys9UGEeGRqaTmypPptTXA5jImabzjIMDBAKNs8MFzXIzWKkK F10BEn15BNLFC4KWob4pvnKFxoPN5hlG/STbovwjKqZqnrGITJx1/xn8CFRRLjs6QEx6 TkrluLAD/12w3AIZSnxc37HcRNlL2qnIBbyz95PI0AIXIOJE6WWB0j1ZWoc/8azIgiQA BcYYyuwsHeqeIJEhAkjBx5garDxtZMCGGdkgvaa+RxzK/jzAJXO2obaHiC36YVyqEA0C Sufpr2PmhSezWtWMv7fyUbjK4RZ8k/F/Mww/N8yL7EH/5UtswopiuGaUcmjtiiZCiVdz Uebw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Jrw1fBqhnPfmA8bUsQqdwc90jILufBynR6DnWtnWRuI=; b=eUDjrQbf+loiBCb+JA1UxsPAuWjbh3RHxMyrTcWJyZMh7eY5SZT3cRbwgRooLZ5Ifp sPDXeQ0FOLgiFnI+eUfM6wjoh+cIPPK3YrvCL6uWRAyMPrFf7fndzJcZsyPM4imqcEJG nc1cmeaF5ne2NdklfS5Jo2jI2558D6rVn3y8ViXRaLouvAZBMw4xbKvxlnf2JzlpW8cK A0s8YPj1fLy88B+pU7dhKa3PQbz+kSif73jlSPjG5tQtE5bOUrqFmulHuP1w6/FGUUf2 DR1LjOpkabqctKkhZqX+PEVftyQSMPmyIwg1vkx8Vh0Jyz2OGI5szDbEVQUeHtZ7WNnV 1eVw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVpu/0HE9SvmeyJ69wdO/nJDfXAhoE5oHYkboxV1FFzvqEYoZ9m k2geIyW6ipUl5HCpEHhpOCwb/9EgGybMF/7hF6M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw6GNNWX74ZuXqHxRKf/MNElj2KL5VZyBi6Km1GHdXIDOAIVU4S9hTPRbIw6UKFN6AK7SDn6ffcjoK9GVxN/bg= X-Received: by 2002:a81:3acf:: with SMTP id h198mr4145230ywa.352.1567022253911; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:57:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01d401d55dd6$e5ee1e70$b1ca5b50$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <01d401d55dd6$e5ee1e70$b1ca5b50$@augustcellars.com> From: Ira McDonald Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:57:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jim Schaad , Ira McDonald Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ccb3e8059132cc44" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] BCP document for CBOR X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 19:57:38 -0000 --000000000000ccb3e8059132cc44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, +1 to BCP for CBOR idea. I'm too busy to write or edit, but would try to review BCP text. I've been much involved in a couple of other standards bodies in editing BCP documents. I think they're equally as important as the underlying standards. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB Blue Roof Music / High North Inc http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434 On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 3:29 PM Jim Schaad wrote: > During the interim call today, as Carsten was going through the set of open > issues, it dawned on me that a good number of the issues that he was > covering today might be better placed in a BCP document rather than in the > CBOR standard. > > Some of the issues that seem to me to be better suited for a BCP would be > > 1. Some parts of Issue #63 about the choices an application can make for > dealing with duplicate keys. The security considerations would need to > stay > in the main document, this would just be a discussion of the trade-offs > between the three choices presented in the issue along with a > recommendation. > > 2. Possibly Issue #67 which deals with how protocols should deal with > unexpected tags and simple values. The core document would probably just > say returned in some form, but more information about this might go into a > BCP > > 3. Issue #68 which discusses the trade offs of using different types of > keys for maps. This text could just move from the core document into the > BCP and thus it would be easier to change later as we get more experience. > > 4. Issue #77 which talks about the JSON to CBOR conversion of numbers into > either integers or floats. This could also discuss the differences between > "pure" JSON and I-JSON where 53 bits of precision is much more explicit > > 5. Potentially some of the issues around strict might move into this > document where the advice could potentially change in the future. > > 6. Some of the text around #92 could end up here. The recommendation that > it not be done should be in the Expert Review considerations, but > potentially a discussion of why it may want to be done could go into the > BCP > document. I have a feeling that this advice might change at some point but > I don't know that. > > 7. Issue #94 which is dealing with NaN where a generic recommendation > would > be in the main document, but suggestions on how applications might want to > use the different types of NaNs might show up. > > What do other people in the WG think of this proposal? > > If the proposal were to be adopted, are there people who are interested in > writing/editing the document? > > Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor > --000000000000ccb3e8059132cc44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

+1 to BCP for CBOR idea.=

I'm too busy to write or edit, but would try = to review BCP text.=C2=A0

I've been much = involved in a couple of other standards bodies in editing BCP
documents.=C2=A0 I think they're equally as important as the underlyi= ng standards.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architec= t)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG= Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Founda= tion Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-= Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expe= rt - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
ma= ilto: blueroof= music@gmail.com
PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-49= 4-2434

<= /div>

<= /div>

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 3:29 PM Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com> wrote:
During the interim call today, as = Carsten was going through the set of open
issues, it dawned on me that a good number of the issues that he was
covering today might be better placed in a BCP document rather than in the<= br> CBOR standard.=C2=A0

Some of the issues that seem to me to be better suited for a BCP would be
1.=C2=A0 Some parts of Issue #63 about the choices an application can make = for
dealing with duplicate keys.=C2=A0 The security considerations would need t= o stay
in the main document, this would just be a discussion of the trade-offs
between the three choices presented in the issue along with a
recommendation.

2.=C2=A0 Possibly Issue #67 which deals with how protocols should deal with=
unexpected tags and simple values.=C2=A0 The core document would probably j= ust
say returned in some form, but more information about this might go into a<= br> BCP

3.=C2=A0 Issue #68 which discusses the trade offs of using different types = of
keys for maps.=C2=A0 This text could just move from the core document into = the
BCP and thus it would be easier to change later as we get more experience.<= br>
4.=C2=A0 Issue #77 which talks about the JSON to CBOR conversion of numbers= into
either integers or floats.=C2=A0 This could also discuss the differences be= tween
"pure" JSON and I-JSON where 53 bits of precision is much more ex= plicit

5.=C2=A0 Potentially some of the issues around strict might move into this<= br> document where the advice could potentially change in the future.

6.=C2=A0 Some of the text around #92 could end up here.=C2=A0 The recommend= ation that
it not be done should be in the Expert Review considerations, but
potentially a discussion of why it may want to be done could go into the BC= P
document.=C2=A0 I have a feeling that this advice might change at some poin= t but
I don't know that.

7.=C2=A0 Issue #94 which is dealing with NaN where a generic recommendation= would
be in the main document, but suggestions on how applications might want to<= br> use the different types of NaNs might show up.

What do other people in the WG think of this proposal?=C2=A0

If the proposal were to be adopted, are there people who are interested in<= br> writing/editing the document?

Jim


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--000000000000ccb3e8059132cc44-- From nobody Wed Aug 28 18:34:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4453B120116 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2B5ztbWvhjM for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C460120026 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id 39K2i8VzDuLel39K2iqF4V; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:33:58 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:33:58 -0700 Cc: cbor@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <999F7BF2-E8E3-441C-A494-C26D5905D83A@island-resort.com> References: <0515B626-7968-43C1-950E-5AD5FCEA2671@tzi.org> <39C91AF6-7948-46E4-8FDA-F1F8188A107D@island-resort.com> <09A5B3BF-28F1-4543-89E6-DCD8CCA0477B@island-resort.com> <6D9351E2-D9BE-4650-A5DC-1E4897F48939@island-resort.com> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJnHuKcO65iWQ0CNJRyAFGDedAi3tYaRucYF6BO2L+TCvjEOasMdR/XkJyK58AgX4WoePuc9PuvPG3fM2dMLa+WFFFameV5J6yPkUHlngW0GxXpp6NBs OhIyuooLQ1ZlzUAGW66Lf06U5te3yPGldOsk9svqDOrHBJaLxzbyzflpSleJeQIiSZvmPFliusyNoQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] Invalid decimal fraction / big float? X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 01:34:01 -0000 I meant to say =E2=80=9Ccart before the horse=E2=80=9D below. It seems possible that use of these data types without explicit tags = could actually be more common than use with the explicit tags. CWT is = one example. EAT will probably be similar. I recall ASN.1 protocols = having a lot of implicit stuff. Anyway, I think you have my meaning on this. LL > On Aug 27, 2019, at 10:11 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Hi Laurence, >=20 > good point. > However, tagging is tagging, there can be no tagging without tagging. > So =E2=80=9Cimplicit tagging=E2=80=9D is an oxymoron to me. >=20 > What we could say: >=20 > The data types that are being defined in the form of CBOR tag = definitions may also be useful to data definition languages, which may = provide a way to employ the type definitions at specific locations = identified by their context by means of the data definition language, = without a representation of the actual tag being exchanged (for = instance, the =E2=80=9Cunwrap=E2=80=9D operator defined for CDDL in = Section 3.7 of RFC 8610 can be used for this purpose: `~time` could = stand for a number representing a Posix time without actually encoding = Tag 1). > A CBOR-based protocol definition based on such a data definition = language may still want to employ tags to enable automatic processing of = tags in generic decoders, and to provide a distinguishing semantics = where needed (e.g., to distinguish a time from another use of numbers = possible in the same place). > Generic decoders may want to provide their tag data processing = capabilities (e.g., converting a number into a time) in an unbundled = form to the application in order to enable the processing of such data = types identified by context, and not by an explicit tag. >=20 > (Unrelated:) > A CBOR-based protocol definition will typically define exactly where = tags are and are not to be used, just as with other containers such as = arrays and maps (giving rise to a =E2=80=9Cstructural=E2=80=9D view of = application level validity). > Alternatively, it could describe its protocol in terms of the data = types that are conceptually =E2=80=9Creturned=E2=80=9D by a tag, e.g., = it could treat all arrays the same, independently of whether they are = represented as classical CBOR arrays or as typed arrays created by = specific tags [I-D.ietf-cbor-array-tags]; we could term this as a = =E2=80=9Csemantic=E2=80=9D view of application level validity. Note = that the present specification does not define a =E2=80=9Csemantic=E2=80=9D= type system that could be employed for this; such definitions are left = to further work. >=20 >=20 > The above needs a lot more word smithing (and may benefit from = creating contexts where it is easier to say these things), but you get = the idea where I think this should be heading. >=20 > Generic decoders will always need to be able to hand (e.g., unknown) = tags to the application in an unprocessed manner. Where processing *is* = performed, it may be necessary to indicate to the application that a tag = was employed (to keep the distinguishing semantics), except where we = explicitly exclude this (e.g., bignums should never be used with = distinguishing semantics). >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >> On Aug 28, 2019, at 06:30, Laurence Lundblade = wrote: >>=20 >> Here's text I think might be useful to add to the Creating CBOR-based = Protocols section: >>=20 >> Protocols using data types defined in the section Tagging of Items = section can use them with explicit tags (type 6 enclosing data items) or = with no tag and their type implied (no type 6 enclosing data item). If = there is no explicit tag, the protocol design should be sure the data = type can be unambiguously recognized in all use case. This is often = accomplished by saying a member of a map with a particular label is = always of a particular type. >>=20 >> Explicit tagging should only be used when it is actually necessary to = clearly distinguish the type. >>=20 >> Some protocol designs may forbid explicit tagging of particular data = items. >>=20 >> Protocol designs should directly state whether explicit tagging is = required, disallowed or optional for each use of these data types. >>=20 >> One of the reasons I=E2=80=99m bring this up is that in a way section = 3.4 Tagging of Items has the horse before the cart. The definition of = the new data types seems more important than the tagging as the tagging = is the optional part. Alternative titles for the section might be = Additional Data Types or Compound Data Types. The somewhat unclear (to = me) characterization of the optionality of tagging is why I asked about = tags in decimal fractions. >>=20 >>=20 >> I think it is useful and practical for generic decoders to directly = support tagged data types rather than just passing them on to the caller = with the tag. >>=20 >> In some cases the tagged data types may have natural representations = in the language or the platform (e.g. time formats). In some cases the = tagged data types are complex enough that some CBOR expertise it helpful = (e.g., array tags) when implementing. The decoder author might also want = to encapsulate more of CBOR so the caller doesn=E2=80=99t have to know = as much about CBOR. >>=20 >> Obviously, it can=E2=80=99t be for tags that aren=E2=80=99t invented = yet, some tagged data types have use that is too narrow, and some may be = poorly designed in the opinion of the author of the decoder. Generic = decoders should also support the caller implementing tagged data types = on their own and a mode to pass tags through. >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s all just my view and no particular issue with the = text. I mention it in part to say that generic decoders supporting = tagged data types may wish to have features in their API to handle = explicit / implicit tagging. >>=20 >> LL >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Aug 25, 2019, at 2:32 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> CWT aside, by my understanding, it is allowed for CBOR protocols to = make use of the data types defined in =E2=80=9COptional Tagging of = Items=E2=80=9D section of 7049 without explicitly adding a tag.=20 >>>=20 >>> Absolutely. Making that easier to do was one reason we introduced ~ = (unwrap) in CDDL. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> For example, I could say in the EAT definition that the claim = labeled =E2=80=9Cteetime=E2=80=9D is a tag 1 epoch-based date as = defined in 7049. EAT could (should?) then say which of a), b) or c) is = allowed for use of the tag 1. Right? >>>=20 >>> Well, EAT should simply say what the claim is. There is no need for = a/b/c here. >>> Either you use the tag or just its definition of the semantics = applied to the enclosed data item; I can=E2=80=99t imagine a case where = anything is gained by allowing both. >>>=20 >>>> When CWT says =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be prefixed with any CBOR tag=E2=80=9D= , it sounds semantically like =E2=80=9Cforbidden=E2=80=9D to me. >>>=20 >>> Yes. But it=E2=80=99s not that CWT forbids tags, it is that it = defines the first seven claims for CWT in a way that does not make use = of tags. It would be as misleading to say that =E2=80=9CCOSE is = forbidden in CWT=E2=80=9D because the first seven claims don=E2=80=99t = use COSE. >>>=20 >>>>>> c) optional =E2=80=94 (I don=E2=80=99t know of an example) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Any protocol that uses CDDL `unsigned` has =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D= Tags: >>>>> Numbers below 2**64 do not use Tags, numbers equal to or greater = than 2**64 do. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> A good generic decoders will handle all three, probably with some = feature in the API to say which of the above scenarios to use. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Since the generic decoder hands the application the decoded data = item, the application can handle the Tags and their being = required/optional/forbidden. >>>>=20 >>>> Generic decoders can handle tagged types inside the decoder itself. >>>=20 >>> They never can for all tags, because all tags haven=E2=80=99t been = invented yet. >>>=20 >>>> Mine does. That means those types of generic decoders have to know = about case a), b) and c). >>>=20 >>> I still don=E2=80=99t think so. That would only be the case if the = decoder doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chandle=E2=80=9D the tag, but = =E2=80=9Chides=E2=80=9D it. That would indeed lead to problems. >>>=20 >>>> Despite my nit picking, I really do like CBOR a lot >>>=20 >>> Thanks. We need to have these discussions to ensure we don=E2=80=99t = have language in the spec that turns out to be misleading. I just = pushed a pull request for CBORbis that massively rearranges the language = around tags, please have a look: >>>=20 >>> https://github.com/cbor-wg/CBORbis/pull/109 >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CBOR mailing list >>> CBOR@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > CBOR mailing list > CBOR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Thu Aug 29 12:56:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9A6120C21 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7iuGk6BOavEi for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 12:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AF2B120B46 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 12:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3911C3808A; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 15:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2638BD8C; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 15:56:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jim Schaad cc: cbor@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <01d401d55dd6$e5ee1e70$b1ca5b50$@augustcellars.com> References: <01d401d55dd6$e5ee1e70$b1ca5b50$@augustcellars.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Cbor] BCP document for CBOR X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 19:56:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Jim Schaad wrote: > During the interim call today, as Carsten was going through the set of open > issues, it dawned on me that a good number of the issues that he was > covering today might be better placed in a BCP document rather than in the > CBOR standard. I think that we actually talked about this at one time before. This was around the question about whether we optimized for limited ability encoders (by not always using the most efficient encoding), or limited ability decoders (by limiting the number of different encodings used). It was some kind of Design Considerations for Protocols using CBOR. I thought it was a good idea. It would provide a number of different ways to do things (a palette), and then suggest that other uses say which one "colour" they are using. > What do other people in the WG think of this proposal? > If the proposal were to be adopted, are there people who are interested in > writing/editing the document? I think that it's a good idea. I would review and contribute, but I couldn't lead. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl1oLdwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXr/QgAqJERYnYeSh8bJ/9g0hRA8XuaWlmiV90F3Wz8uj4kSq7P/sCliEzfFCil APieRwqYEDfIMRR1Z1WNywwnt0VjEVDmxVnbB2hfeSYMxBwhlSybmges6TYQyGow J1KIwv2rPvCtgaY2vR5zvWvgwOCuDeBxm95f51A+Z+ipilEZcfxcWrO135ONdihx yag7Jw+3NVr3hnX8AEG8ln1SU/nSyzvBIQqRcmlgcVDr2uUoAXx4G0aIyK8W1XSG enkKXGKbKdv8H1QCCiCRr/OwOOzOvuH5ziv3400ost7dqfORQE1cKSzRE+ygSdin Xt2y0tsBYLhsj8V0YolArtRi1x4S5A== =s7KB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Aug 30 21:19:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E118120077; Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:19:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: cbor@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cbor@ietf.org Message-ID: <156722519556.25866.15584880623453370913@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:19:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] I-D Action: draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01.txt X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 04:19:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Concise Binary Object Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG of the IETF. Title : Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequences Author : Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2019-08-30 Abstract: This document describes the Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) Sequence format and associated media type "application/cbor- seq". A CBOR Sequence consists of any number of encoded CBOR data items, simply concatenated in sequence. Structured syntax suffixes for media types allow other media types to build on them and make it explicit that they are built on an existing media type as their foundation. This specification defines and registers "+cbor-seq" as a structured syntax suffix for CBOR Sequences. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Aug 30 21:33:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: cbor@ietf.org Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F0312009E; Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Schaad via Datatracker To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: cbor@ietf.org, ietf@augustcellars.com, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, cbor-chairs@ietf.org, Jim Schaad Message-ID: <156722601247.25779.13878362027199973915.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:33:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Cbor] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01 X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 04:33:33 -0000 Jim Schaad has requested publication of draft-ietf-cbor-sequence-01 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the CBOR working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-sequence/