From nobody Fri Oct 2 07:14:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AC21B2B98 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eRRlFvhWzGqy for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 07:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.ictp.it (smtp2.ictp.it [140.105.16.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC6A1B2BAF for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 07:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.ictp.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757A2400EFBE for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:13:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at smtp2.ictp.it Received: from smtp2.ictp.it ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.ictp.it [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with LMTP id SxuDNQOMjNPq for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:13:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [140.105.28.21] (unknown [140.105.28.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp2.ictp.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72582400EF94 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:13:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Marco Zennaro Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EDA33D95-EA8E-4D82-B973-F73E8D2873E1" Message-Id: Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:13:54 +0200 To: gaia@irtf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.0 \(3094\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3094) Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] UNESCO Chair in Technologies for Development: From Innovation to Social Impact 2-4 May 2016 | EPFL, Lausanne, Switzerland X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 14:14:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EDA33D95-EA8E-4D82-B973-F73E8D2873E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The UNESCO Chair invites authors from research, industry, policy or = civil society to submit their abstracts under one of the Breakout = Sessions. I invite you to submit papers to the breakout session "IoT4D: Potential = and Open Issues in IoT for Development=E2=80=9D. Extended abstracts should emphasize the value of technological = innovation while also acknowledging the limits of technology in = generating inclusive social and economic development. The extended abstract should include: - A focused description of research objectives and research methodology, = or if appropriate, description of case study objectives and outcomes. - Potential development impact - Recommendations for future research and application in practice Abstracts in English will need to adhere to the 1,000-1,500 word limit = using the prescribed template and submitted online no later than 6 = November 2015. Papers accepted to be presented at the Conference will either be = selected for submission to the Journal of Development Engineering = (Elsevier) or will be published as electronic proceedings on the = conference website. More info here: = http://cooperation.epfl.ch/2016Tech4Dev/BreakoutSessions#ICT4D = Best, Marco Marco Zennaro, PhD Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics Strada Costiera 11 34014 Trieste Italy Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 Web: http://wireless.ictp.it --Apple-Mail=_EDA33D95-EA8E-4D82-B973-F73E8D2873E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The UNESCO Chair invites authors from research, industry, = policy or civil society to submit their abstracts under one of = the Breakout Sessions.

I invite you to submit papers to the breakout session "IoT4D: Potential and Open Issues in IoT for = Development=E2=80=9D.

Extended abstracts should emphasize the value = of technological innovation while also acknowledging the limits of = technology in generating inclusive social and economic development.

The extended = abstract should include:

- A focused description of research objectives and research = methodology, or if appropriate, description of case study objectives and = outcomes.
- Potential development impact
- Recommendations for future research = and application in practice

Abstracts in English will need to adhere to = the 1,000-1,500 word limit using the prescribed = template and submitted online no later than 6 = November 2015.

Papers accepted to be presented at the Conference will either = be selected for submission to the Journal of Development = Engineering (Elsevier) or will be published as electronic = proceedings on the conference website.


= --Apple-Mail=_EDA33D95-EA8E-4D82-B973-F73E8D2873E1-- From nobody Sun Oct 4 10:46:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67841B33D3 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2015 10:46:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zcF-8S5EreT4 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 2015 10:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CD6B1B33D1 for ; 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boundary=001a114035e69f966305214af8b1 Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] the hidden digital divide X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 17:46:10 -0000 --001a114035e69f966305214af8b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 some nice data visualisation: http://www.scidev.net/global/icts/data-visualisation/digital-divide-data-interactive.html -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --001a114035e69f966305214af8b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --001a114035e69f966305214af8b1-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 05:14:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9078D1B3305 for ; 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Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:14:20 GMT Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:14:12 +0100 From: Tristan Henderson To: gaia@irtf.org Message-ID: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:14:29 -0000 Cheers, Tristan -- Tristan Henderson | School of Computer Science | University of St Andrews www: http://tristan.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ | tel: +44 1334 461637 The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland: No SC013532 From nobody Thu Oct 8 05:24:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7AF1B32F6 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JtS9Wm9dyHGT for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moof.catpipe.net (moof.catpipe.net [194.28.252.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924811B3308 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (moof.catpipe.net [194.28.252.64]) by localhost.catpipe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20BC4CE904; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:24:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from moof.catpipe.net ([194.28.252.64]) by localhost (moof.catpipe.net [194.28.252.64]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MoHeWti9Aiox; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:24:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from macbook.bluepipe.net (gw.bluepipe.dk [91.221.206.68]) (Authenticated sender: relayuser) by moof.catpipe.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 74D9E4CE8F3; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:24:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: by macbook.bluepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 05A904A6F7E0; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:24:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:24:47 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Tristan Henderson Message-ID: <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> References: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> X-Operating-System: Darwin 15.0.0 x86_64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Cc: gaia@irtf.org Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:24:54 -0000 Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: > "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more than one month’s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband subscription." Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for "internet access" ? It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite realistic. I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more than technical. Cheers, Phil From nobody Thu Oct 8 05:26:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557A61B3327 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qovK2HJU1wMF for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x230.google.com (mail-lb0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB63A1B332C for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbwr8 with SMTP id r8so44571561lbw.2 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 05:26:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jSP38I4XqK0NwIQutpOoPJSO3sfkxKgl6G/mF7s9eSo=; b=ZCnjBFHYb4UZRQxOK5BQS3ap8vwveT0pdwXxsvqk+8VQeKmeS3B+bBrV0nFdlh7v0b SK47Zt3OonWROQUZqZNRsMI40l/j4GrYSeaeVxZAof7UeL8szXdg2CCj0QXJy60kGVWJ UK+QqbmzRYzvuNUk0PS6KQbAZ8M6MO+57kcCbkB7XN7HhiQB2hdAjbhBNqQ7OCtwJRfA sUUpkoTfdkzhN9Y8Emd90nY5w7gRp6s3SQGxJtClCo24MuuXXlCLp7b9Benv8O01wEoM 1uawgnn1vpqGDNWhyCFBBi/oaZlyiaiHyEMyVJM8eCcNsnbJojKy7Z0OeOka3TJtMrW/ Ik3g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.159.168 with SMTP id xd8mr3411501lbb.118.1444307179845; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 05:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.27.135 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:26:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> References: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:26:19 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 52_fR5oOJsNla6SuTQUsUkXq2e8 Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: Phil Regnauld Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3d9e666c29b052196f898 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Tristan Henderson Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:26:23 -0000 --001a11c3d9e666c29b052196f898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the biggest challenge is going to be that i think :) Regards On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: > > < > https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream-= no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 > > > > "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more > than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband > subscription." > > Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for > "internet > access" ? > > It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite realistic. > I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more > than technical. > > Cheers, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --=20 Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --001a11c3d9e666c29b052196f898 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether ever= yone will use the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- = so the biggest challenge is going to be that i think :)

= Regards

On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote:
Tristan Henderson (tnhh) wri= tes:
> <https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-= impossible-dream-no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423>

"The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more= than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband sub= scription."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Who said anything about broadband being the onl= y metric for "internet
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 access" ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 yea= rs is quite realistic.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think the barriers will be political (repress= ion) rather more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 than technical.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil

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=
--001a11c3d9e666c29b052196f898-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 05:32:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389601B3334 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3KRHBcN0iKZh for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from millet.cc.columbia.edu (millet.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.72.250]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F2C91B3333 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hazelnut (hazelnut.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.213.250]) by millet.cc.columbia.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t98CRhnN028136 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:31:56 -0400 Received: from hazelnut (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2936D for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tarap.cc.columbia.edu (tarap.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.29.7]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0D06D for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-yk0-f175.google.com (mail-yk0-f175.google.com [209.85.160.175]) by tarap.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id t98CVtZZ020492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ykft14 with SMTP id t14so46893274ykf.0 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 05:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Kc+fBLYPlsGMnlIwMWga7WF3s4XEoPY62XLJEAuOF/k=; b=hmPILcSDHcYnj03JjqkXA0PpdyLwYKhLa7JhFdLtoUWwuO3Utrqfz4qx1y/mD38U5u fS7ZRmfbd9jTcYWk0pIY+jB8gH47t9g5Wg935RGioqfy9vETGcte+YvG/Ys77FSUG4ui toIe+8szwBkEWn4HzQr1VFgUcNc8ffYm2XVn/uA9eW8BzfxeNOFH1dK0WpZK79tYoVH/ tQoNQRwI56fZQq1B6M4ooXblNF0IRo8tubzYR3t+uCdSyI8E4/qBMEgOzI9QZbR3znjn NgefzlikH8NaBB4txRs+/Ybcmt/D50RCK7yRoi9BkSqlFyFIEXfAfpTEnrSrLhjV8qlj T5Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkH3AAOsT9HDo9FsnrUhSsidVj8VX09XeFORvuxfh+7K8znFWmXgHhPxAMcLupB6hIYGk6Cx0lHCzMgPlCgoD7ZII9A0hR72/RZL/osmjnzuQ+4r53M7oIDRuFJJkoro6EF86cQ X-Received: by 10.129.109.214 with SMTP id i205mr4895949ywc.179.1444307515450; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 05:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.129.109.214 with SMTP id i205mr4895936ywc.179.1444307515323; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 05:31:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.208.2 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:31:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> From: Henning Schulzrinne Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:31:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d6d6c65e7400521970c4a X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 128.59.29.7 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Tristan Henderson , Phil Regnauld Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:31:59 -0000 --001a114d6d6c65e7400521970c4a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will happen, somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in the US. (See LifeLine discussion.) I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is more likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or private financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via mobile= . On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use > the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the bigge= st > challenge is going to be that i think :) > > Regards > > On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: > >> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: >> > < >> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream= -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 >> > >> >> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more >> than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband >> subscription." >> >> Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for >> "internet >> access" ? >> >> It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite realistic= . >> I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more >> than technical. >> >> Cheers, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> > > > > -- > Arjuna Sathiaseelan > Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ > N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > --001a114d6d6c65e7400521970c4a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that= it will happen, somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major p= roblem even in the US. (See LifeLine discussion.)

I'= m guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is more lik= ely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or private finan= cing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via mobile.

On Thu, O= ct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiase= elan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether every= one will use the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- s= o the biggest challenge is going to be that i think :)

R= egards

On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote:
Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes= :
> <https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-= impossible-dream-no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423>

"The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more= than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband sub= scription."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Who said anything about broadband being the onl= y metric for "internet
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 access" ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 yea= rs is quite realistic.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think the barriers will be political (repress= ion) rather more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 than technical.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil

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https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



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https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--001a114d6d6c65e7400521970c4a-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 05:32:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278951B3336 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:32:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vdl0JkW0oyOA for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0699.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:699]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 409411B3332 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CY1PR0601MB1440.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.21.22) by CY1PR0601MB1438.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.163.21.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.286.20; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:32:11 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0601MB1440.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.21.22]) by CY1PR0601MB1440.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.21.22]) with mapi id 15.01.0286.019; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:32:11 +0000 From: Jane Coffin To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan , Phil Regnauld Thread-Topic: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream Thread-Index: AQHRAcLlpf4puxqyD0qSUpHREAyuip5hhR6AgAAAbYD//76GAA== Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:32:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.5.150821 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=coffin@isoc.org; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [173.226.66.172] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR0601MB1438; 5:6rSxRsc8P+KB4+eQBBYPPRLWWcbbafg3uSFXsbKf81IHtvgZJTAK4jWqgm3Q9q6I+T6UVTpFpEAaXL8cCilXvKo6boCNDJXnsP0lKk6crIpr/4aEzojQDIQ+UmUE0UltDVuA+ErHC0vSKxX2WiiF8Q==; 24:5yltZNwShk3RwIvnl+FksZ67Jvb5Kbcb6UJHxWFwtyjMpnPSzJBR4RGxBHKoYAAiwkBHGE5VApF9p1A2ZbeXZW4GMYJMqO+LWE3f9vu5Eho=; 20:Pr/l6yeIWPtIPFN/95Zezhdin60doUQQ/2GLdNWeCzRdffOvjjfe2tO1XuFnUdwNAijHUcVTtAnYL62XkAWUvA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(42140001); SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1438; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001); SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1438; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1438; x-forefront-prvs: 0723A02764 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(199003)(31014005)(377454003)(24454002)(189002)(122556002)(5001960100002)(76176999)(2950100001)(2900100001)(5007970100001)(15975445007)(5008740100001)(105586002)(5001920100001)(83506001)(102836002)(4001350100001)(92566002)(5002640100001)(5001770100001)(46102003)(106116001)(101416001)(106356001)(66066001)(97736004)(11100500001)(81156007)(36756003)(99286002)(64706001)(54356999)(19617315012)(50986999)(86362001)(40100003)(77096005)(189998001)(87936001)(16236675004)(19580405001)(5004730100002)(10400500002)(19580395003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1438; H:CY1PR0601MB1440.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D23BD9C540461coffinisocorg_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Oct 2015 12:32:11.2397 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0601MB1438 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Tristan Henderson Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:32:39 -0000 --_000_D23BD9C540461coffinisocorg_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Arjuna - Yes. This is the current issue of connecting the next billion. Some want to be connected and others do not mind just having a simple pre-p= aid phone. It is amazing to see the disparity in projections of "demand" and GDP. Many of us have lived in countries where GDP is projected to be X and affor= dability is Y. People in the former soviet republics whose projected income was $20USD per= month - found ways to afford a mobile phone. Simple texting took off like wild-fire in those countries and most subscrip= tions were pre-paid. The question also is - what type of connectivity do people want? Best, Jane From: gaia > on behalf = of Arjuna Sathiaseelan > Date: Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM To: Phil Regnauld > Cc: gaia >, Tristan Henderson > Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use the= Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the biggest ch= allenge is going to be that i think :) Regards On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld > wrote: Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: > "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more than= one month's salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband subscription." Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for "intern= et access" ? It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite realistic. I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more than technical. Cheers, Phil _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --_000_D23BD9C540461coffinisocorg_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Arjuna -

Yes.  This is the current issue of connecting the next billion.
Some want to be connected and others do not mind just having a simple = pre-paid phone.

It is amazing to see the disparity in projections of “demandR= 21; and GDP.
Many of us have lived in countries where GDP is projected to be X and = affordability is Y.
People in the former soviet republics whose projected income was $20US= D per month – found ways to afford a mobile phone.
Simple texting took off like wild-fire in those countries and most sub= scriptions were pre-paid.

The question also is – what type of connectivity do people want?=

Best,
Jane

From: gaia <gaia-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of Arjuna Sath= iaseelan <arjuna.sat= hiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Date: Thursday, October 8, 2015 at = 8:26 AM
To: Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org>
Cc: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>, Tristan Henderson <tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for al= l remains an impossible dream

i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether ever= yone will use the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- = so the biggest challenge is going to be that i think :)

Regards

On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.or= g> wrote:
Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes:
> <https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-= impossible-dream-no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423>

"The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more= than one month’s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband subsc= ription."

        Who said anything about broadband being the onl= y metric for "internet
        access" ?

        It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years i= s quite realistic.
        I think the barriers will be political (repress= ion) rather more
        than technical.

        Cheers,
        Phil

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



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--_000_D23BD9C540461coffinisocorg_-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 05:51:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA901B3367 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:51:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.098 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tpeivvV6r5RZ for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 05:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-db3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db3on0689.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe04::689]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ABF21B3366 for ; 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HE1PR02MB0779; 5:Vvu4TzpGmNTjbb8u6uvXgBuPM032XaAH4mvayPvbqaBDVdFYmdEeuXzgZVZBm3O2j46CrgWr7SIH3UT5+EvD3LOV54yJG5+WwJUwgwfqfUnIItyVVLOZ/4Yq7dWhQn2ZroymXb+CeOFDMYmVkXvamg==; 24:nJNFNUPAOQRhzPQK2DZMjiUdfRB5ACK+gXZU5GkU02scRMa5Lyxf5V9qa+9+nLbpCq+/1nk3EuAyKPn65ka+4x7v318pBreFcwPB6RCQGgY=; 20:UB3AMCzXDTwm1D0yIYl9DtyNRDYmaPgvjxt1+n33AkKeMxmnCQQz8R6w2Jxygon5+mgodkgf/TDgyTInExen6g== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: urjc.es X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Oct 2015 12:50:38.7273 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR02MB0779 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:51:04 -0000 > "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more than one month’s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband subscription." > > Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for "internet > access" ? > > It's a rather narrow vision. I don't fully agree with you. When I started in this business (1994), setting up one of the first ISPs in Spain, contents were very light and narrow-band communications were enough for anyone. Now, most valuable contents are heavy and, though we may conceive many alternatives to broadband communications, they don't necessarily make sense. We used to try to use packet-radio in the amazon forest, we even worked in real-time multimedia compression for the access to contents in the Internet through 19200 bps channels... but we stopped all that when we started to work with long-distance wifi links by 2002. That made possible to use 'normal' applications over TCP/IP for accessing 'normal' contents. Since then, I think that, in most scenarios, after plain telephony services, only broadband makes sense. It is true that there are valuable services (e-mail, chat) that may be useful over narrow-band communications. But, also from my experience, when there is community for that, there is community to justify broadband solutions after a short period of time. > I think 10 years is quite realistic. > I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more > than technical. Of course, barriers are almost always political... and economical, rather than technical :-) But they are there. I don't see any signs in our global village that give hope in this sense. I am fairly sure that we will have technical solutions for different scenarios, but I don't think that the availability of technical solutions will mean the effective implementation of global connectivity for everyone :-( . At least, not in 10 years. -- --------------------------------------------------- Fco. Javier Simó Reigadas Subdirector de Ord. Docente ETS de Ingeniería de Telecomunicación D-204, Departamental III Camino Del Molino, s/n - 28943 Fuenlabrada (Madrid) Tel: 914888428, Fax: 914887500 Web personal: http://www.tsc.urjc.es/~javier.simo From nobody Thu Oct 8 06:29:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26C21B33CA for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 06:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mDwcSWhyQqNN for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 06:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moof.catpipe.net (moof.catpipe.net [194.28.252.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D9A1B33C5 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 06:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (moof.catpipe.net [194.28.252.64]) by localhost.catpipe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDFF4CE8F0; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:29:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from moof.catpipe.net ([194.28.252.64]) by localhost (moof.catpipe.net [194.28.252.64]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4klGETvEw0WJ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:29:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from macbook.bluepipe.net (gw.bluepipe.dk [91.221.206.68]) (Authenticated sender: relayuser) by moof.catpipe.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 324264CE8DC; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:29:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: by macbook.bluepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 902A34A74735; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:29:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:29:30 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Javier =?utf-8?B?U2ltw7M=?= Message-ID: <20151008132930.GJ19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> References: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> <5616669A.5080806@urjc.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <5616669A.5080806@urjc.es> X-Operating-System: Darwin 15.0.0 x86_64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Cc: gaia@irtf.org Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 13:29:35 -0000 Javier Simó (javier.simo) writes: > > It is true that there are valuable services (e-mail, chat) that may > be useful over narrow-band communications. But, also from my > experience, when there is community for that, there is community to > justify broadband solutions after a short period of time. One can be a driver for the other. As Jane put it: > The question also is - what type of connectivity do people want? But how would they know until they've tried it ? Would 3G be a good metric for what broadband is ? > But they are there. I don't see any signs in our global village that > give hope in this sense. I am fairly sure that we will have > technical solutions for different scenarios, but I don't think that > the availability of technical solutions will mean the effective > implementation of global connectivity for everyone :-( . At least, > not in 10 years. Possibly. The future tends to surprise us once it's moved in the past :) Cheers. Phil From nobody Thu Oct 8 07:06:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759F31A0104 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.622 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.622 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y-Mlg5x44Opw for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D9631A0100 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicfx3 with SMTP id fx3so26895402wic.0 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:06:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=89v4QRcYpyyknLXfkrf2NYrI9XIuKp0VNg/Z3+6ovUE=; b=IUEhcfpsNLNX+gUCEYw/GYCdxhB7gM5Sgugf8LK3VRbtv5NWgOHBZxYl1J17zBoJlQ 9Si8bmS11ZtCQzH+RYcBmThyz3YS+VLup8N0zgVlQzWWfA31U2BomYhVvBQl1dWsiYRL RExPd3CzRe02nHYcDJS0tpuSZP6GvNU5SPK/+BCy3xGubl57CI57Ic0jrADPyNlXOo65 8RonZnLGeKKCzwpkSojnL6xoG96U5BCdPq/GY5nEsSi+mw9SXeFg/82UoeJOlusA6bjp 42s/0TMYVidfVTuT/smpKdtRbzQpiKmcaw33kXYh1CoZzX8R+1oqrpP/6MMt0l56Z8+R Hbag== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.235.6 with SMTP id ui6mr9444588wjc.92.1444313169766; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Sender: stephen.song@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.173.7 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:06:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20151008132930.GJ19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> References: <20151008121412.GA4062@eden.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> <20151008122447.GI19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> <5616669A.5080806@urjc.es> <20151008132930.GJ19396@macbook.bluepipe.net> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:06:09 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: waEKvoNceolaXA-nSBuEmnZemMo Message-ID: From: Steve Song To: gaia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01493bd06db06b0521985d54 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:06:14 -0000 --089e01493bd06db06b0521985d54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I understand the need to set broadband targets from a policy and strategy perspective, I also feel like we need to get beyond this. A single bit can have more value in some contexts than a gigabyte of data, if it were say announcing the election of a president via Yo. Whatsapp is an important (with qualifications about the merits of trash-talking) Internet technology in the Tanzanian elections ( http://qz.com/510899/whatsapp-is-now-the-primary-platform-for-political-tra= sh-talk-in-tanzanias-election-campaign/) yet it consumes precious little bandwidth. We need better measures of value when it comes to being connected. I also find the separation of voice services from the Internet more and more artificial. Connectedness should be a seamless combination of both. It seems to me that there is an interesting curve to be mapped out about the value of connectedness at different rates of access. I suspect that curve is logarithmic with a high initial spike and steady taper. When I am travelling I find that even a trickle of access makes a huge difference vs no access. 2G access for all might be an alternative to currently prevalent app-specific zero-rating strategies[1]. This is not to underplay the importance of high-speed access but to recognise that a little connectivity can go a long way. Regards... Steve [1] https://manypossibilities.net/2014/11/a-better-approach-to-zero-rating/ On 8 October 2015 at 13:29, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Javier Sim=C3=B3 (javier.simo) writes: > > > > It is true that there are valuable services (e-mail, chat) that may > > be useful over narrow-band communications. But, also from my > > experience, when there is community for that, there is community to > > justify broadband solutions after a short period of time. > > One can be a driver for the other. As Jane put it: > > > The question also is - what type of connectivity do people want? > > But how would they know until they've tried it ? > > Would 3G be a good metric for what broadband is ? > > > But they are there. I don't see any signs in our global village that > > give hope in this sense. I am fairly sure that we will have > > technical solutions for different scenarios, but I don't think that > > the availability of technical solutions will mean the effective > > implementation of global connectivity for everyone :-( . At least, > > not in 10 years. > > Possibly. The future tends to surprise us once it's moved > in the past :) > > Cheers. > Phil > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --=20 +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc.org --089e01493bd06db06b0521985d54 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I understand the need to set broadband targets from = a policy and strategy perspective, I also feel like we need to get beyond t= his.=C2=A0 A single bit can have more value in some contexts than a gigabyt= e of data, if it were say announcing the election of a president via Yo.=C2= =A0 Whatsapp is an important (with qualifications about the merits of trash= -talking) Internet technology in the Tanzanian elections (http://qz.com/510899/whatsapp-is-now-the= -primary-platform-for-political-trash-talk-in-tanzanias-election-campaign/<= /a>) yet it consumes precious little bandwidth.=C2=A0 We need better measur= es of value when it comes to being connected.=C2=A0 I also find the separat= ion of voice services from the Internet more and more artificial.=C2=A0 Con= nectedness should be a seamless combination of both.=C2=A0 It seems to me t= hat there is an interesting curve to be mapped out about the value of conne= ctedness at different rates of access.=C2=A0 I suspect that curve is logari= thmic with a high initial spike and steady taper.=C2=A0 When I am travellin= g I find that even a trickle of access makes a huge difference vs no access= . =C2=A02G access for all might be an alternative to currently prevalent ap= p-specific zero-rating strategies[1].=C2=A0 This is not to underplay the im= portance of high-speed access but to recognise that a little connectivity c= an go a long way.=C2=A0

Regards... Steve

On 8 October 2015 at 13:29, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc= .org> wrote:
Javier Sim=C3=B3 (javier.simo) writes:
>
> It is true that there are valuable services (e-mail, chat) that may > be useful over narrow-band communications. But, also from my
> experience, when there is community for that, there is community to > justify broadband solutions after a short period of time.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One can be a driver for the other. As Ja= ne put it:

> The question also is - what type of connectivity do people want?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 But how would they know until they've tried= it ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Would 3G be a good metric for what broadband is= ?

> But they are there. I don't see any signs in our global village th= at
> give hope in this sense. I am fairly sure that we will have
> technical solutions for different scenarios, but I don't think tha= t
> the availability of technical solutions will mean the effective
> implementation of global connectivity for everyone :-(=C2=A0 =C2=A0. A= t least,
> not in 10 years.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly. The future tends to surprise u= s once it's moved
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the past :)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Phil



_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



--
=
= +1 902 529 0046
<= br>
--089e01493bd06db06b0521985d54-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 07:08:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B534D1A0087 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FrKT0d0BW3VO for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0689.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:689]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0CA31A00FE for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0601MB1438; H:CY1PR0601MB1440.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D23BF0D440687coffinisocorg_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Oct 2015 14:07:49.8682 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0601MB1438 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:08:17 -0000 --_000_D23BF0D440687coffinisocorg_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 From: gaia > on behalf = of Steve Song > Date: Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 10:06 AM To: gaia > Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream While I understand the need to set broadband targets from a policy and stra= tegy perspective, I also feel like we need to get beyond this. A single bi= t can have more value in some contexts than a gigabyte of data, if it were = say announcing the election of a president via Yo. Whatsapp is an importan= t (with qualifications about the merits of trash-talking) Internet technolo= gy in the Tanzanian elections (http://qz.com/510899/whatsapp-is-now-the-pri= mary-platform-for-political-trash-talk-in-tanzanias-election-campaign/) yet= it consumes precious little bandwidth. We need better measures of value w= hen it comes to being connected. I also find the separation of voice servi= ces from the Internet more and more artificial. Connectedness should be a = seamless combination of both. It seems to me that there is an interesting = curve to be mapped out about the value of connectedness at different rates = of access. I suspect that curve is logarithmic with a high initial spike a= nd steady taper. When I am travelling I find that even a trickle of access= makes a huge difference vs no access. 2G access for all might be an alter= native to currently prevalent app-specific zero-rating strategies[1]. This= is not to underplay the importance of high-speed access but to recognise t= hat a little connectivity can go a long way. Regards... Steve [1] https://manypossibilities.net/2014/11/a-better-approach-to-zero-rating/ On 8 October 2015 at 13:29, Phil Regnauld > wrote: Javier Sim=F3 (javier.simo) writes: > > It is true that there are valuable services (e-mail, chat) that may > be useful over narrow-band communications. But, also from my > experience, when there is community for that, there is community to > justify broadband solutions after a short period of time. One can be a driver for the other. As Jane put it: > The question also is - what type of connectivity do people want? But how would they know until they've tried it ? Would 3G be a good metric for what broadband is ? > But they are there. I don't see any signs in our global village that > give hope in this sense. I am fairly sure that we will have > technical solutions for different scenarios, but I don't think that > the availability of technical solutions will mean the effective > implementation of global connectivity for everyone :-( . At least, > not in 10 years. Possibly. The future tends to surprise us once it's moved in the past :) Cheers. Phil _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia -- +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc.org --_000_D23BF0D440687coffinisocorg_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <67E699E47B51A440A2D6DF4C0996201D@namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1


From: gaia <gaia-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of Steve Song = <stevesong@nsrc.org>
Date: Thursday, October 8, 2015 at = 10:06 AM
To: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for al= l remains an impossible dream

While I understand the need to set broadband targets from = a policy and strategy perspective, I also feel like we need to get beyond t= his.  A single bit can have more value in some contexts than a gigabyt= e of data, if it were say announcing the election of a president via Yo.  Whatsapp is an important (with quali= fications about the merits of trash-talking) Internet technology in the Tan= zanian elections (http:= //qz.com/510899/whatsapp-is-now-the-primary-platform-for-political-trash-ta= lk-in-tanzanias-election-campaign/) yet it consumes precious little bandwidth.  We need better measures o= f value when it comes to being connected.  I also find the separation = of voice services from the Internet more and more artificial.  Connect= edness should be a seamless combination of both.  It seems to me that there is an interesting curve to be mapped out about t= he value of connectedness at different rates of access.  I suspect tha= t curve is logarithmic with a high initial spike and steady taper.  Wh= en I am travelling I find that even a trickle of access makes a huge difference vs no access.  2G access for all mi= ght be an alternative to currently prevalent app-specific zero-rating strat= egies[1].  This is not to underplay the importance of high-speed acces= s but to recognise that a little connectivity can go a long way. 

Regards... Steve


On 8 October 2015 at 13:29, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.or= g> wrote:
Javier Sim=F3 (javier.simo) writes:
>
> It is true that there are valuable services (e-mail, chat) that may > be useful over narrow-band communications. But, also from my
> experience, when there is community for that, there is community to > justify broadband solutions after a short period of time.

        One can be a driver for the other. As Ja= ne put it:

> The question also is - what type of connectivity do people want?

        But how would they know until they've tried it = ?

        Would 3G be a good metric for what broadband is= ?

> But they are there. I don't see any signs in our global village that > give hope in this sense. I am fairly sure that we will have
> technical solutions for different scenarios, but I don't think that > the availability of technical solutions will mean the effective
> implementation of global connectivity for everyone :-(   . A= t least,
> not in 10 years.

        Possibly. The future tends to surprise u= s once it's moved
        in the past :)

        Cheers.
        = Phil



_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



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--_000_D23BF0D440687coffinisocorg_-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 08:11:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2C81A6F8E for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:11:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id noAS6AmN-_Pd for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm43-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm43-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.120.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 876FE1A7001 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:11:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1444317099; bh=2hSG4avwIhxs2HWZOgxdZt5ccXhA+Bf3qxLxJVUU4uk=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=DTFVRgfOi5wjQMNNYfGxijZJxyYnXBL4hWyfUeYwGbw62BzohHjWWEdVpEmaxjkRrdDquVTBGHNY11KPi4iTwViO9JjPDNSWwbSa2h5H0V/5wbSi3e+kMMr1aojTuUvUgJPRsKkfZ0E2Xgd9BXBJnX79LfpuZykulYWZ5tljBDzOC/hi/q0ssAEcW9YM7B6kkrIR5jv/992VImobPv0haUUkiM/2gMRPAUN7gWE+EF20ice/myLHGuAMlPxBh/6xKTPnENXP7GxrL2Q6c/6O8zFiomA9LYBIF9EJkMfPuPdjJggNT9Yi94Xn+a4oGiOliDpXVwMpCIvafvi9PgUpaQ== Received: from [127.0.0.1] by nm43.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2015 15:11:39 -0000 Received: from [98.138.100.103] by nm43.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2015 15:08:38 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.163] by tm102.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2015 15:08:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1019.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2015 15:08:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-4 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 376068.62332.bm@omp1019.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: Sq9MglsVM1nuN3aYe4E8MGc_f0DdEgDuuBNeFCaAbKALRPaOj0CBME9N0iOOSlr KSyg2VjXwnGvKyuxkxGlY5r2JUlnF.n8nIkMSC8NiXkUUqPlr2aS8XTpuHp32kATZoMYw_PlwWgF xlEKrCvfS7U2y6u4clEMEBsoH8DRt9TM04.HVdghL1Hjce5.CN7tqzDwdVtgWctjXx62Sjb.6Lu7 sGapfNU71uau4njMTaGOTQt3YxBiyWTm0B658Y45FRAVVKo87h4Ji3te8cDUISwEfURALi4tsyvh lqG3752kbjbafpgSU6sPmUZ_9W_QGrfW.l9SSGetxjD5YMhvTjXZM8VnIL.ZOWD97HBYBR6xsYY1 3VdXhxS1l9KR66g23JdLEcMPD8gOGK._exXI12MdlMGYeX7CnHbsrEVzgzbjdmD1LUNHdAiGV40U z2buWLrV15S59Uq6ePaH9ih3me2izo4ncrU3GiICpG1fHuV4H38HFB1G_MBan.PkkoMQ_Rj0oHmY YlS1ja0QCvX40myxunqxMcKXK3qljuxqYqOvxDgghiU1ChCb8 Received: by 98.138.101.170; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:08:37 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:08:37 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Henning Schulzrinne Message-ID: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_866709_1512485628.1444316917348" Archived-At: Cc: gaia Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:11:45 -0000 ------=_Part_866709_1512485628.1444316917348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps we start even more slowly.=C2=A0=20 Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model.=C2=A0 That is, = have a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a li= nk to the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not = constant, basis.=C2=A0=20 It's a tiny step forward in some senses.=C2=A0 But a huge step up from noth= ing. Regards, Bill Jouris From: Henning Schulzrinne To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan =20 Cc: gaia ; Tristan Henderson ; Phil R= egnauld =20 Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream =20 I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will happen, = somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in the US= . (See LifeLine discussion.) I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is more l= ikely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or private fin= ancing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via mobile. On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use the= Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the biggest ch= allenge is going to be that i think :) Regards On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: > "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more than= one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband subscrip= tion." =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Who said anything about broadband being the onl= y metric for "internet =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 access" ? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years i= s quite realistic. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think the barriers will be political (repress= ion) rather more =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 than technical. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia --=20 Arjuna Sathiaseelan=20 Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/=20 N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia ------=_Part_866709_1512485628.1444316917348 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perhaps we start even more slowly. 

Rather than a library model, we go wit= h a bookmobile model.  That is, have a mobile (truck based?) link, whi= ch can provide local people with a link to the Internet via satellite, but = on a regularly recurring, albeit not constant, basis. 

It's a tiny step forward in = some senses.  But a huge step up from nothing.

Regards,

Bill Jouris


From: Henning= Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.a= c.uk>
Cc: gaia <= gaia@irtf.org>; Tristan Henderson <tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>; Phil Re= gnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains = an impossible dream

<= div id=3D"yiv1071275310">
I think the article makes go= od points. Just asserting that it will happen, somehow, isn't a plan. Affor= dability remains a major problem even in the US. (See LifeLine discussion.)=

I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or= the school/library model is more likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared ac= cess and with public or private financing, in addition to basic (message, a= few MB/month) access via mobile.



On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna S= athiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk&= gt; wrote:
i think we can get internet to everyone - but whethe= r everyone will use the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer = :) -- so the biggest challenge is going to be that i think :)

Regards

On 8 Octobe= r 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote:
Tristan Henderson (t= nhh) writes:
> <https://theconversation.com/internet-for-al= l-remains-an-impossible-dream-no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423>=

"The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more than= one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband subscrip= tion."

        Who said anything about broadband being the onl= y metric for "internet
        access" ?

        It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years i= s quite realistic.
        I think the barriers will be political (repress= ion) rather more
        than technical.

        Cheers,
        Phil

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


<= /span>

--

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https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


=

__________________= _____________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.= org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


=
------=_Part_866709_1512485628.1444316917348-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 08:30:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9C31A9024 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d4m0PhMAiO48 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x233.google.com (mail-lb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B1851A879A for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbcao8 with SMTP id ao8so51849938lbc.3 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Mq6guOFIF0gcVwB2X70CuqjiA3V4eHEwQ8sBYDCD8Ko=; b=OKrsUv10tpM2d4ktlDGcli+8wRTfyJKH5TuxaEmlkXc/xqSNk8CWNThYzWTMTHwzVe NCa18JsmX281z+WpfHw3CezY8W1KYtVM2Fmk99dCkiKNB2ufQKEZ7GDJHEXH1H/paLtT 1GzB87Gz13P9OvW++W5FIVF9KDA5KxyQ0fEudDXXxgmluSUocczwrObRbmeSaJzp9QXk SZ2M5QpRMBze7vPZsnuN+sGFDKWVrLJYwXaia9Kv98f5tkhQf38qSOij74dRJJZLknNc fqW8xWbm8SjqF/gI8HWHUv/MRlshH5oIjF+mJMduzgXjuLqTjEeu+7MqY0RA61LciECq MusA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.199.100 with SMTP id jj4mr4085015lbc.122.1444318247583; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.27.135 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.27.135 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:30:47 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: AMBjoxLlYxx7k6SXqLOsnWp5MTQ Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2a9961707750521998c47 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:30:52 -0000 --001a11c2a9961707750521998c47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outernet or something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broadcast educational content :) Regards On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, wrote: > Perhaps we start even more slowly. > > Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model. That is, hav= e > a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a link = to > the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not > constant, basis. > > It's a tiny step forward in some senses. But a huge step up from nothing= . > > Regards, > > Bill Jouris > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Henning Schulzrinne > *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan > *Cc:* gaia ; Tristan Henderson ; > Phil Regnauld > *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream > > I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will happen= , > somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in the > US. (See LifeLine discussion.) > > I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is more > likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or private > financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via mobi= le. > > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < > arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use > the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the bigge= st > challenge is going to be that i think :) > > Regards > > On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: > > < > https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream-= no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 > > > > "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more > than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband > subscription." > > Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for > "internet > access" ? > > It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite realistic. > I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more > than technical. > > Cheers, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > -- > Arjuna Sathiaseelan > Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ > N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > --001a11c2a9961707750521998c47 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

how about this idea..have street lights connected to the out= ernet or something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broa= dcast educational content=C2=A0 :)

Regards

On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wrote:
Perhaps we start even more slowl= y.=C2=A0

Rather tha= n a library model, we go with a bookmobile model.=C2=A0 That is, have a mob= ile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a link to the = Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not constant, = basis.=C2=A0

It'= ;s a tiny step forward in some senses.=C2=A0 But a huge step up from nothin= g.

Regards,
=

Bill Jouris


From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl= .cam.ac.uk>
Cc: g= aia <gaia@irtf.org>; Tristan Henderson <tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>; Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 201= 5 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: [= gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream
=
I think the article makes good points. Just = asserting that it will happen, somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability rem= ains a major problem even in the US. (See LifeLine discussion.)

I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the sch= ool/library model is more likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and= with public or private financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/= month) access via mobile.



<= /div>
On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
i think we= can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use the Internet = is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the biggest challenge is= going to be that i think :)

Regards

On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnau= ld <regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote= :
Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes:
> <https://theconversation.com/internet-for-al= l-remains-an-impossible-dream-no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423>=

"The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more= than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband sub= scription."

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Who said anything about broadband being the onl= y metric for "internet
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 access" ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 yea= rs is quite realistic.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think the barriers will be political (repress= ion) rather more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 than technical.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phil

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= font color=3D"#888888">
=


=
--

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


=

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

<= br>

__________________________________= _____________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

--001a11c2a9961707750521998c47-- From nobody Fri Oct 9 06:35:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD971B33B6 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 06:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fG14nTDz2pe2 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 06:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBF541B33BD for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 06:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96660BE4C; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:44 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cEXmR3nAAg04; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.73] (unknown [86.46.26.211]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F44ABE38; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:40 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1444397681; bh=UUXuErwjs8zZ1Rq4HeBrCsB5VAdKwpWdbuXR0EGGClI=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=g4eHFM4yMxhVj3L766gPeGk9xSTG9KFlJsSnZokAjKpUsIjK9m/ZS7mM6ko0Whbp9 A2/NkTreOPjuN9oGad8aP2/OXQXTUUpjqA4nXKxHdomdx4s2ZIAQ47AvZdjMjO+5Nc jwF/NV3eNHyMDMhyx5OWqnBvIgrKXCqngJV2e4h0= To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan , bill.jouris@insidethestack.com References: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <5617C26F.9050505@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:39 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 13:35:03 -0000 On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outernet or > something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broadcast > educational content :) It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps or not. I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute deployment idea. (And why it failed;-) S. [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html > > Regards > On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, wrote: > >> Perhaps we start even more slowly. >> >> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model. That is, have >> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a link to >> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not >> constant, basis. >> >> It's a tiny step forward in some senses. But a huge step up from nothing. >> >> Regards, >> >> Bill Jouris >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne >> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan >> *Cc:* gaia ; Tristan Henderson ; >> Phil Regnauld >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream >> >> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will happen, >> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in the >> US. (See LifeLine discussion.) >> >> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is more >> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or private >> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via mobile. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use >> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the biggest >> challenge is going to be that i think :) >> >> Regards >> >> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: >> >> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: >>> < >> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream-no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 >>> >> >> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more >> than one month’s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband >> subscription." >> >> Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for >> "internet >> access" ? >> >> It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite realistic. >> I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more >> than technical. >> >> Cheers, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Arjuna Sathiaseelan >> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ >> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > From nobody Fri Oct 9 08:10:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF681A1A20 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lFLu8QDnWNJj for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ignavia.lancs.ac.uk (ignavia.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.25.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98611A1A24 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex-1-ht0.lancs.ac.uk ([10.42.18.57] helo=EX-1-HT0.lancs.local) by ignavia.lancs.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkZJf-0002ya-MA; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 16:10:39 +0100 Received: from EX-1-MB0.lancs.local ([fe80::f083:6530:dfd5:ebc7]) by EX-1-HT0.lancs.local ([fe80::d9e8:ad10:d075:a6b6%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:10:38 +0100 From: "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" To: Stephen Farrell , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" Thread-Topic: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream Thread-Index: AQHRAcLktH2czzpwkE2GaRAytPB6CZ5hdFqAgAAAboCAAAF4gIAAK+CAgAAGMoCAAXHigIAAK5GA Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:10:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5617C26F.9050505@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <5617C26F.9050505@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.5.150821 x-originating-ip: [10.32.117.153] x-iss-local-domain: 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:10:47 -0000 V2UgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIHNvbWUgb2YgdGhlIG1haW4gcmVhc29ucyBzdWNoIHByb2plY3RzIGZhaWws IGFuZCBob3cgdG8gYXZvaWQNCnRoYXQ6DQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNvbXAubGFuY3MuYWMudWsvfmVs a2hhdGliL0RvY3MvMjAxNS4wOF9kaWRlLnBkZg0KDQovWWVoaWENCg0KDQoNCk9uIDA5LzEwLzIw MTUgMTQ6MzQsICJnYWlhIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwiDQo8Z2FpYS1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlydGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPiB3cm90 ZToNCg0KPg0KPg0KPk9uIDA4LzEwLzE1IDE2OjMwLCBBcmp1bmEgU2F0aGlhc2VlbGFuIHdyb3Rl Og0KPj4gaG93IGFib3V0IHRoaXMgaWRlYS4uaGF2ZSBzdHJlZXQgbGlnaHRzIGNvbm5lY3RlZCB0 byB0aGUgb3V0ZXJuZXQgb3INCj4+IHNvbWV0aGluZyBzaW1pbGFyIHdpdGggc3RvcmFnZSBhbmQg 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16:27:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.73] (unknown [86.46.26.211]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1933BE38; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:27:21 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1444404442; bh=kotayahr1VQyG2HwygSRS1dJTg5uZWAE0VWFjoYCCCc=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=4RBFbOiXw45wexb/vcn3G6V+mXrCvnCnFlkaSJZhJ5epA4dhHBf2lMXULWda8wrWh HBKE0fzaDMRnD4qZZXB2ZHyvhBpzpPC8lpb8CWFsMfCnRY6vsQEZsBs0tioAF8l+v+ QAKelOyn3nLkoB4ekwB7KsQX3Ffm14/X8HfD+7kk= To: "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" References: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5617C26F.9050505@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <5617DCD9.3080404@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:27:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:27:31 -0000 On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote: > We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to avoid > that: > http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that list might be useful and should save time for some who might otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very likely fail yet again. S. > > /Yehia > > > > On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > wrote: > >> >> >> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: >>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outernet or >>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broadcast >>> educational content :) >> >> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different >> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in >> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps >> or not. >> >> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these >> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't >> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute >> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-) >> >> S. >> >> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html >> >> >>> >>> Regards >>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly. >>>> >>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model. That is, >>>> have >>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a >>>> link to >>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not >>>> constant, basis. >>>> >>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses. But a huge step up from >>>> nothing. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Bill Jouris >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne >>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan >>>> *Cc:* gaia ; Tristan Henderson ; >>>> Phil Regnauld >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream >>>> >>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will >>>> happen, >>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in >>>> the >>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.) >>>> >>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is >>>> more >>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or >>>> private >>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via >>>> mobile. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will use >>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the >>>> biggest >>>> challenge is going to be that i think :) >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: >>>> >>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: >>>>> < >>>> >>>> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream >>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 >>>>> >>>> >>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more >>>> than one month’s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband >>>> subscription." >>>> >>>> Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for >>>> "internet >>>> access" ? >>>> >>>> It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite >>>> realistic. >>>> I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather more >>>> than technical. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan >>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ >>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > From nobody Fri Oct 9 08:45:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A0C1B4461 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:45:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GoTZsVbrxqDH for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x229.google.com (mail-lb0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E84C61B4465 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbwt4 with SMTP id wt4so85189407lbb.1 for ; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:45:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eVFbQFDcKHtHj8Gs91//Grfq2r/tDGLPJAlRj51njeQ=; b=DVlxu7nof0vS5SqRlehptF46vR1bC81lxn2DlscdblwzKNc7caHBhQTuILw2SIlZqh yxpS5zRrxRLdHHDQUlvCZSOsxvDewTyAqUIOixjf50f2+TGIJ4CYGTHn2j9d5viHtEez c2A3zORdzhoe8zjlyucVIQ3kz0aCg7sUA+Vw089BVv4+5NzLsJxfpo9Cs5Qt21q5C86M J5YDtOrcb6r9q2WUJoCWeGpAQ+QgSTZjWfqxid8AQlWdIylsxfsSq5fc3Ilp2021pkvv leln6S4Glg9MBNfEAfK7ZVRrpvSms45EAdsVhirYteGNLUYlhbA3+WjyKOyvkWtTBu45 nQSw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.135.136 with SMTP id ps8mr6862809lbb.38.1444405513864; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5617DCD9.3080404@cs.tcd.ie> References: <284823767.866710.1444316917356.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5617C26F.9050505@cs.tcd.ie> <5617DCD9.3080404@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:45:13 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: wRUlf5bhPyw_ZvWrsCy7zMwonPg Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: Stephen Farrell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0116071291b2470521addd79 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , bill.jouris@insidethestack.com, "El Khatib, Yehia \(elkhatib\)" , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:45:21 -0000 --089e0116071291b2470521addd79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent point Stephen. Maybe through GAIA we should document this. Regards On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen Farrell" wrote: > > > On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote: > > We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to > avoid > > that: > > http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf > > Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has > made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in > fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that > list might be useful and should save time for some who might > otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very > likely fail yet again. > > S. > > > > > /Yehia > > > > > > > > On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > >>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outernet or > >>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broadca= st > >>> educational content :) > >> > >> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different > >> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in > >> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps > >> or not. > >> > >> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these > >> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't > >> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute > >> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-) > >> > >> S. > >> > >> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, wrote: > >>> > >>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly. > >>>> > >>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model. That is= , > >>>> have > >>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a > >>>> link to > >>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not > >>>> constant, basis. > >>>> > >>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses. But a huge step up from > >>>> nothing. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Bill Jouris > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne > >>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan > >>>> *Cc:* gaia ; Tristan Henderson >; > >>>> Phil Regnauld > >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream > >>>> > >>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will > >>>> happen, > >>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in > >>>> the > >>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.) > >>>> > >>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is > >>>> more > >>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or > >>>> private > >>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via > >>>> mobile. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < > >>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will > use > >>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the > >>>> biggest > >>>> challenge is going to be that i think :) > >>>> > >>>> Regards > >>>> > >>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: > >>>>> < > >>>> > >>>> > https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream > >>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend mo= re > >>>> than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadba= nd > >>>> subscription." > >>>> > >>>> Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for > >>>> "internet > >>>> access" ? > >>>> > >>>> It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite > >>>> realistic. > >>>> I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather > more > >>>> than technical. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Phil > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gaia mailing list > >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan > >>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ > >>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gaia mailing list > >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gaia mailing list > >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gaia mailing list > >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> gaia mailing list > >>> gaia@irtf.org > >>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gaia mailing list > >> gaia@irtf.org > >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > --089e0116071291b2470521addd79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Excellent point Stephen. Maybe through GAIA we should docume= nt this.

Regards

On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen Farrell"= <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie= > wrote:


On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote:
> We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to a= void
> that:
> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhati= b/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf

Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in
fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that
list might be useful and should save time for some who might
otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very
likely fail yet again.

S.

>
> /Yehia
>
>
>
> On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell"
> <gaia-bounces@irtf.org= on behalf of stephen.farrell@= cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote:
>>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outer= net or
>>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to = broadcast
>>> educational content=C2=A0 :)
>>
>> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in differen= t
>> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in
>> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps=
>> or not.
>>
>> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these
>> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't >> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute
>> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-)
>>
>> S.
>>
>> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publicat= ion/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model= .=C2=A0 That is,
>>>> have
>>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local peop= le with a
>>>> link to
>>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, = albeit not
>>>> constant, basis.
>>>>
>>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses.=C2=A0 But a h= uge step up from
>>>> nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Bill Jouris
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
>>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>
>>>> *Cc:* gaia <gaia@irtf.= org>; Tristan Henderson <tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>;
>>>> Phil Regnauld <reg= nauld@nsrc.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossib= le dream
>>>>
>>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that= it will
>>>> happen,
>>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major p= roblem even in
>>>> the
>>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.)
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/li= brary model is
>>>> more
>>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with pub= lic or
>>>> private
>>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) = access via
>>>> mobile.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >>>> arjuna= .sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether ever= yone will use
>>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) = -- so the
>>>> biggest
>>>> challenge is going to be that i think :)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes:
>>>>> <
>>>>
>>>> https://the= conversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream
>>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would n= eed to spend more
>>>> than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very che= ap broadband
>>>> subscription."
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Who said anything about b= roadband being the only metric for
>>>> "internet
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access" ?
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a rather narrow = vision. I think 10 years is quite
>>>> realistic.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the barriers will= be political (repression) rather more
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than technical.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan
>>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/
>>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d=
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gaia mailing list
>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gaia mailing list
>> gaia@irtf.org
>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
--089e0116071291b2470521addd79-- From nobody Fri Oct 9 09:06:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809D91B45CF for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h76u2TAY50Jq for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm18-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm18-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 770881B45CB for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:06:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1444406773; bh=tLPy8ioJewiesr2u7o1iOGtKzaoyjL9Z8+IU2JOWaNA=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=dkc4iwh9a6hYsCIyxJM3RJOE9Jfb5S+cCXUMXbOkA0AIDxq2VWje+c8p8w95eu2XP+EQutQUhvM/Y7fWnSWs2dub7fhJSX+RXJIxK4XvM22hAlI/wK5xyuJb+yYCTPqfUIRsPVmnNkXhoy8iXnpJoR8yc7cQbx4OF7nE8tHNOtghFt24+QuuEZuA3OGdJe8lq1AbnsDg2klJDox3sV2IfAVFeSD/eGVs/QfF31O91Qs4ejf1A3KpIBZNu314Woyn3Svb/dwkwGwDXfaLparrrIygA6WlWjxJkT7t12Ffn7zBJcisR4h6i+Lakw2bAoBWQoFds4V04OvcrZQuqjyLqw== Received: from [98.138.100.117] by nm18.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2015 16:06:13 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.246] by tm108.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2015 16:06:13 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1060.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2015 16:06:13 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 832865.64937.bm@omp1060.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: vw9q5cQVM1lrRjxahfL_cHJrr3BitH5Xcw8beDCTqmSRoHBMIwsz3hXOiiu3tHf Kdx_2yJyiOkTwJFl89Qvd.NQUhp0J0A4KfNBJ_4KAXr0bpmq_ZK3fDX7AEOP8hj2eOLbuUqwglOd 3tE2fmi3DgbxdJpNrnU7iIbSbFFee98Z2JhHsGxxocvRqldSUuYQJbLsWZOW2q8d2Lo3nqVCnBve CPIkxotrvFt_f_goifhPk4FHQSjQRWbm_.SI9.P9QcppsStLn2j5qz1rVTAvsx7ilMk5Oq2xO3sy Rtb.h74eyvbGzC_l2z_Kp0yT83qfYsvMP9pfm8Xc1M9IMceYij72tMoPbj6qWwdg7LVR_Glbyv9D cD7L6IN0_FXphd0T0AFtaiQD_ysAHa.l8uPD.v1MCsKohxzI8pjne.z1NqlyAwwS8CPJ67Qbc3tu glkRC2UI4xJYQM19iWf4tjdsBglJlcLK49Fmw5Zyi2.3toFemHFS.g0dq.w0RN1CfEyZduMFEX8z T55Onvav.Imi5o2JSQMzwBuAK3_4Z0R.jYU4RragE2A16 Received: by 98.138.105.247; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 16:06:13 +0000 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:06:12 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan , Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <1833013136.1529732.1444406772808.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1529731_156936993.1444406772797" Archived-At: Cc: gaia , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" , "El Khatib, Yehia \(elkhatib\)" , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 16:06:17 -0000 ------=_Part_1529731_156936993.1444406772797 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very interesting idea. =C2=A0I would be happy to collaborate on an I-D such= as this. =C2=A0I have had informal conversations with others about "why pr= ojects fail" and have started an informal list of projects and reasons.=C2= =A0Thanks, Nalini ElkinsInside Products, Inc.www.insidethestack.com(831) 659-8360 From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: Stephen Farrell =20 Cc: gaia ; bill.jouris@insidethestack.com; "El Khatib, Yehia= (elkhatib)" ; Henning Schulzrinne =20 Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream =20 Excellent point Stephen. Maybe through GAIA we should document this.Regards On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen Farrell" wrote: On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote: > We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to avoi= d > that: > http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that list might be useful and should save time for some who might otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very likely fail yet again. S. > > /Yehia > > > > On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > wrote: > >> >> >> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: >>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outernet or >>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broadcast >>> educational content=C2=A0 :) >> >> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different >> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in >> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps >> or not. >> >> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these >> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't >> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute >> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-) >> >> S. >> >> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html >> >> >>> >>> Regards >>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly. >>>> >>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model.=C2=A0 That= is, >>>> have >>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a >>>> link to >>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not >>>> constant, basis. >>>> >>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses.=C2=A0 But a huge step up from >>>> nothing. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Bill Jouris >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne >>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan >>>> *Cc:* gaia ; Tristan Henderson ; >>>> Phil Regnauld >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream >>>> >>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will >>>> happen, >>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in >>>> the >>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.) >>>> >>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is >>>> more >>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or >>>> private >>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via >>>> mobile. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will us= e >>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the >>>> biggest >>>> challenge is going to be that i think :) >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld wrote: >>>> >>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: >>>>> < >>>> >>>> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dre= am >>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 >>>>> >>>> >>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more >>>> than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband >>>> subscription." >>>> >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Who said anything about broadband bei= ng the only metric for >>>> "internet >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0access" ? >>>> >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a rather narrow vision. I think = 10 years is quite >>>> realistic. >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the barriers will be politica= l (repression) rather more >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than technical. >>>> >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers, >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan >>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ >>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia ------=_Part_1529731_156936993.1444406772797 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Very inte= resting idea.  I would be happy to collaborate on an I-D such as this.=  I have had informal conversations with others about "why projects fa= il" and have started an informal list of projects and reasons.
=
 
Thanks,

=
Nalini Elkins
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethes= tack.com
(831) 659-8360


From:= Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.far= rell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc:= gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; bill.jouris@insidethestack.com; "El Khatib, Ye= hia (elkhatib)" <y.elkhatib@lancaster.ac.uk>; Henning Schulzrinne <= ;hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossi= ble dream

Excellent point Stephen. Maybe thro= ugh GAIA we should document this.
Regards


On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen = Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote:
> We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to a= void
> that:
> http://www.comp.lancs.a= c.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf

Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has
made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in
fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that
list might be useful and should save time for some who might
otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very
likely fail yet again.

S.

>
> /Yehia
>
>
>
> On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell"
> <gaia-boun= ces@irtf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote:
>>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outer= net or
>>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to = broadcast
>>> educational content  :)
>>
>> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different >> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in
>> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps
>> or not.
>>
>> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these
>> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't
>> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute
>> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-)
>>
>> S.
>>
>> [1] http://www.erci= m.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>= ; wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model= .  That is,
>>>> have
>>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local peop= le with a
>>>> link to
>>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, = albeit not
>>>> constant, basis.
>>>>
>>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses.  But a huge = step up from
>>>> nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Bill Jouris
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
>>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.c= am.ac.uk>
>>>> *Cc:* gaia <g= aia@irtf.org>; Tristan Henderson <tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>;
>>>> Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossib= le dream
>>>>
>>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that= it will
>>>> happen,
>>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major probl= em even in
>>>> the
>>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.)
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/librar= y model is
>>>> more
>>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with pub= lic or
>>>> private
>>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) = access via
>>>> mobile.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether ever= yone will use
>>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) = -- so the
>>>> biggest
>>>> challenge is going to be that i think :)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld <regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes:
>>>>> <
>>>>
>>>> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream=
>>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need t= o spend more
>>>> than one month=E2=80=99s salary to pay for even a very che= ap broadband
>>>> subscription."
>>>>
>>>>         Who said anything about b= roadband being the only metric for
>>>> "internet
>>>>         access" ?
>>>>
>>>>         It's a rather narrow visi= on. I think 10 years is quite
>>>> realistic.
>>>>         I think the barriers will= be political (repression) rather more
>>>>         than technical.
>>>>
>>>>         Cheers,
>>>>         Phil
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org=
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan
>>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2= 330/
>>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~a= s2330/n4d
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org=
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org=
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org=
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gaia mailing list
>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/ga= ia
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gaia mailing list
>> gaia@irtf.org
>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
>
gaia@irtf.org
> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0wNve1mqav6t for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFF951A9120 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3882BBE50; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:34:29 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d1BsXYxXtpoc; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:34:24 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.73] (unknown [86.46.26.211]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8EEAFBE4C; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:34:23 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1444408464; bh=5VU//Z0ejZDR3qpXW9JL0fKoG26g7euf1dFmaPsR+e4=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=SqljMcl5+lsNjXs21ufojn35onLzw6ltmk1Mb1zDdUUTv8yAqZs95POlNQlvF4JUL 0owqf5UouuGry0DOtwUZkZuPt9CqVlycRAwObIdPvgZXrzbrQRoL05I9b3ds8YM7Y0 YYbiLzAuldPw0WEi6qfTvFItAb6IQw3jwliOuc0E= To: "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" , "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" References: <1833013136.1529732.1444406772808.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <5617EC8F.6000408@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:34:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 16:34:34 -0000 On 09/10/15 17:19, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote: > Yes. A community wiki where we add projects and document experiences > with them (both successes and failures) would be a good > contribution. Yeah I think starting with a wiki would be good, and I could contribute a row or two to the table. I also think it'd be good to transfer that wiki into an I-D and eventual RFC after it stabilises, if the content turns out to be good enough. I'll not volunteer for that now though, as it's too early to say. I might volunteer for the I-D bit in future though, if help is needed. So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for each entry: - name of the original effort - dates active - overview of approach (1-2 paras) - status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) - contact who added this info - contact for original effort - date this entry last updated - references I'm not sure if there's a wiki for gaia but starting a page like that may work. Cheers, S. > > /Yehia > > On 9 Oct 2015, at 17:06, "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" > > > wrote: Very interesting idea. I would be happy to collaborate on an > I-D such as this. I have had informal conversations with others > about "why projects fail" and have started an informal list of > projects and reasons. > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) > 659-8360 > > ________________________________ From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan > To: Stephen Farrell > Cc: gaia ; > bill.jouris@insidethestack.com; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" > ; Henning Schulzrinne > Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 8:45 AM Subject: > Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream > > Excellent point Stephen. Maybe through GAIA we should document this. > Regards > > > On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen Farrell" < > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > > On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote: >> We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how >> to avoid that: >> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf > > Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has made > a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in fact fail > (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that list might be > useful and should save time for some who might otherwise spend a lot > of effort to try something that's very likely fail yet again. > > S. > >> >> /Yehia >> >> >> >> On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell" < >> gaia-bounces@irtf.org on behalf of >> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: >>>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the >>>> outernet or something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee >>>> 802.15.17 to broadcast educational content :) >>> >>> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different >>> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in >>> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps or >>> not. >>> >>> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these >>> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't mean >>> the networking technology used, but rather the cute deployment >>> idea. (And why it failed;-) >>> >>> S. >>> >>> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Regards On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, < >>>> bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly. >>>>> >>>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model. >>>>> That is, have a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide >>>>> local people with a link to the Internet via satellite, but >>>>> on a regularly recurring, albeit not constant, basis. >>>>> >>>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses. But a huge step up >>>>> from nothing. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Bill Jouris >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ *From:* Henning Schulzrinne < >>>>> hgs@cs.columbia.edu> *To:* Arjuna >>>>> Sathiaseelan < >>>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> >>>>> >>>>> *Cc:* gaia < gaia@irtf.org>; Tristan Henderson < tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>; >>>>> Phil Regnauld < regnauld@nsrc.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM *Subject:* Re: >>>>> [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream >>>>> >>>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it >>>>> will happen, somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a >>>>> major problem even in the US. (See LifeLine discussion.) >>>>> >>>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library >>>>> model is more likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access >>>>> and with public or private financing, in addition to basic >>>>> (message, a few MB/month) access via mobile. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >>>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether >>>>> everyone will use the Internet is going to be a tough >>>>> question to answer :) -- so the biggest challenge is going to >>>>> be that i think :) >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld < >>>>> regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: >>>>>> < >>>>> >>>>> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream >>>>> >>>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to >>>>> spend more than one month’s salary to pay for even a very >>>>> cheap broadband subscription." >>>>> >>>>> Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for >>>>> "internet access" ? >>>>> >>>>> It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite >>>>> realistic. I think the barriers will be political >>>>> (repression) rather more than technical. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Phil >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing >>>>> list gaia@irtf.org >>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: >>>>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: >>>>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing >>>>> list gaia@irtf.org >>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing >>>>> list gaia@irtf.org >>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing >>>>> list gaia@irtf.org >>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing >>>> list gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing >>> list gaia@irtf.org >>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> > > _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > From nobody Fri Oct 9 10:38:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3A81AC3D4 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.313 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.313 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUUhbxF_dXBH for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roura.ac.upc.es (roura.ac.upc.edu [147.83.33.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B41E1AC3D3 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.0.18] (gw-3-vpn-i.ac.upc.es [147.83.35.77]) by roura.ac.upc.es (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t99Fl29Q015500 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:47:34 +0200 From: Leandro Navarro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:17:13 +0200 To: gaia@irtf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.0 \(3096.1\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.1) Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] Socio-economics in delivering the GAIA vision (lessons, obstacles, models), discussion in the next GAIA meeting (London Nov 30) X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 17:38:22 -0000 Dear all,=20 A few weeks ago I proposed Arjuna for the next "Global Internet Access = for All" GAIA meeting (London, Nov 30, colocated with the ACM-DEV = conference) to have a one hour session (panel, but even better a = word-cafe style discussion) on socio-economic or business/sustainability = models of infrastructures and services for GAIA.=20 Many of us know believe in the power of technological advances to lower = the barrier of Internet access, but to reach everyone we should deal = with a few other critical aspects, but this time it isn=E2=80=99t about = the technology, it=E2=80=99s everything about else, or at least: how can = we deal with socio-economics all over the world so that everyone has a = fair choice to participate in the Internet?=20 The idea would be to share lessons learned, organisational models, = measured impacts, obstacles, opportunities, alliances, campaigns, and of = course, enabling technologies. That would depend on the = participants/discussions leaders. The ultimate goal is to draft a GAIA = public document describing all these =E2=80=9Cnon tech issues=E2=80=9D = that can hinder our vision.=20 The more diverse views and models the better. I can count on = participants from guifi.net, (including myself as one). A few more = contacts have been invited to present their experiences. Are you coming?=20= If you could report or have contacts on initiatives from the past (e.g. = lessons from past failed initiatives), current or future (local like = many community networks or global such as Google Fibre, Internet.org) = please let me know.=20 If you have a vision/experience to discuss in this meeting, let me know = by Monday 12 preferably, so I can prepare a tentative list of = participants.=20 All the best, Leandro.=20 From nobody Fri Oct 9 11:06:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4661B4943 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d77CT_T8FLyH for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0601MB1434; H:BY1PR0601MB1434.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D23D799640C73coffinisocorg_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Oct 2015 18:05:45.7529 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0601MB1434 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Stephen Farrell , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 18:06:17 -0000 --_000_D23D799640C73coffinisocorg_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A community Wiki would be amazing. I am in a meeting right now about the importance of a global Wiki about pro= jects and how they have worked or not, common factors, and contacts. This = is part of the SDG debate and how to make sure that there is more data shar= ed in general. From: gaia > on behalf = of "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" > Date: Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12:19 PM To: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" > Cc: gaia >, "bill.jouris@insidethestack= .com" >, Henning Schulzrinne >, Arjuna Sathiaseelan >, Stephen Farrel= l > Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream Yes. A community wiki where we add projects and document experiences with t= hem (both successes and failures) would be a good contribution. /Yehia On 9 Oct 2015, at 17:06, "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" > wrote: Very interesting idea. I would be happy to collaborate on an I-D such as t= his. I have had informal conversations with others about "why projects fai= l" and have started an informal list of projects and reasons. Thanks, Nalini Elkins Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ________________________________ From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan > To: Stephen Farrell > Cc: gaia >; bill.jouris@insidethestack.= com; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" <= y.elkhatib@lancaster.ac.uk>; Henning Sch= ulzrinne > Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream Excellent point Stephen. Maybe through GAIA we should document this. Regards On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen Farrell" < stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote: > We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to avoi= d > that: > http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that list might be useful and should save time for some who might otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very likely fail yet again. S. > > /Yehia > > > > On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > < gaia-bounces@irtf.org on behalf of stephe= n.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > >> >> >> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: >>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outernet or >>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to broadcast >>> educational content :) >> >> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different >> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in >> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps >> or not. >> >> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these >> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't >> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute >> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-) >> >> S. >> >> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html >> >> >>> >>> Regards >>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, < bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly. >>>> >>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model. That is, >>>> have >>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local people with a >>>> link to >>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, albeit not >>>> constant, basis. >>>> >>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses. But a huge step up from >>>> nothing. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Bill Jouris >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne < hgs@cs.columbia.edu> >>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan < arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> >>>> *Cc:* gaia < gaia@irtf.org>; Tristan Henderson <= tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>; >>>> Phil Regnauld < regnauld@nsrc.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream >>>> >>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that it will >>>> happen, >>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major problem even in >>>> the >>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.) >>>> >>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/library model is >>>> more >>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with public or >>>> private >>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) access via >>>> mobile. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < >>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether everyone will us= e >>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) -- so the >>>> biggest >>>> challenge is going to be that i think :) >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld < regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes: >>>>> < >>>> >>>> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dre= am >>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423 >>>>> >>>> >>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would need to spend more >>>> than one month's salary to pay for even a very cheap broadband >>>> subscription." >>>> >>>> Who said anything about broadband being the only metric for >>>> "internet >>>> access" ? >>>> >>>> It's a rather narrow vision. I think 10 years is quite >>>> realistic. >>>> I think the barriers will be political (repression) rather mor= e >>>> than technical. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan >>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ >>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia --_000_D23D799640C73coffinisocorg_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <350F6D82C3B414428ED34591F99B44CC@namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A community Wiki would be amazing.
I am in a meeting right now about the importance of a global Wiki abou= t projects and how they have worked or not, common factors, and contacts. &= nbsp;This is part of the SDG debate and how to make sure that there is more= data shared in general.

From: gaia <gaia-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of "El Kh= atib, Yehia (elkhatib)" <y.elkhatib@lancaster.ac.uk>
Date: Friday, October 9, 2015 at 12= :19 PM
To: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" <<= a href=3D"mailto:nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com">nalini.elkins@insidethes= tack.com>
Cc: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>, "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>, Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.colu= mbia.edu>, Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>, Stephen Farrel= l <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.i= e>
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for al= l remains an impossible dream

Yes. A community wiki where we add projects and document exp= eriences with them (both successes and failures) would be a good contributi= on.

/Yehia

On 9 Oct 2015, at 17:06, "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com&quo= t; <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
Very interesting idea.  I would be happy to collaborate on = an I-D such as this.  I have had informal conversations with others ab= out "why projects fail" and have started an informal list of proj= ects and reasons.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


<= span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan <<= a href=3D"mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk">arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.c= am.ac.uk>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>= ;
Cc: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; bill.jouris@insidethestac= k.com; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" <y.elkhatib@lancaster.ac.uk>; Henning Schul= zrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu&g= t;
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2= 015 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Intern= et for all remains an impossible dream

Excellent point Stephen. Maybe through GAIA we should docu= ment this.
Regards


On 9 Oct 2015 16:27, "Stephen Farrell" < stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On 09/10/15 16:10, El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib) wrote:
> We discussed some of the main reasons such projects fail, and how to a= void
> that:
> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~elkhatib/Docs/2015.08_dide.pdf

Yep, but that's a little different - I'm wondering if anyone has
made a list of the attempts and the specific reasons each did in
fact fail (to the extent one can be sure and open). I think that
list might be useful and should save time for some who might
otherwise spend a lot of effort to try something that's very
likely fail yet again.

S.

>
> /Yehia
>
>
>
> On 09/10/2015 14:34, "gaia on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > < gaia-bounces@irtf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 08/10/15 16:30, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote:
>>> how about this idea..have street lights connected to the outer= net or
>>> something similar with storage and use LiFi ieee 802.15.17 to = broadcast
>>> educational content  :)
>>
>> It's interesting how a lot of the same ideas arise in different >> contexts. A colleague deployed a similar test network [1] in
>> 2003. I've no idea if that was the first one with street lamps >> or not.
>>
>> I wonder has anyone ever tried to list a whole bunch of these
>> kinds of deployment ideas and why they failed? Note: I don't
>> mean the networking technology used, but rather the cute
>> deployment idea. (And why it failed;-)
>>
>> S.
>>
>> [1] http://www.ercim.eu/publication/Ercim_News/enw54/weber.html
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> On 8 Oct 2015 16:12, < bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps we start even more slowly.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than a library model, we go with a bookmobile model= .  That is,
>>>> have
>>>> a mobile (truck based?) link, which can provide local peop= le with a
>>>> link to
>>>> the Internet via satellite, but on a regularly recurring, = albeit not
>>>> constant, basis.
>>>>
>>>> It's a tiny step forward in some senses.  But a huge = step up from
>>>> nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Bill Jouris
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Henning Schulzrinne < hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
>>>> *To:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan < arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>
>>>> *Cc:* gaia < gaia@irtf.org>; Tristan Henderson < tnhh@st-andrews.ac.uk>;
>>>> Phil Regnauld < regnauld@nsrc.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:31 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossib= le dream
>>>>
>>>> I think the article makes good points. Just asserting that= it will
>>>> happen,
>>>> somehow, isn't a plan. Affordability remains a major probl= em even in
>>>> the
>>>> US. (See LifeLine discussion.)
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing that the CyberCafe model or the school/librar= y model is
>>>> more
>>>> likely and not mentioned, i.e., shared access and with pub= lic or
>>>> private
>>>> financing, in addition to basic (message, a few MB/month) = access via
>>>> mobile.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < <= br clear=3D"none"> >>>> arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> i think we can get internet to everyone - but whether ever= yone will use
>>>> the Internet is going to be a tough question to answer :) = -- so the
>>>> biggest
>>>> challenge is going to be that i think :)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> On 8 October 2015 at 13:24, Phil Regnauld < regnauld@nsrc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tristan Henderson (tnhh) writes:
>>>>> <
>>>>
>>>> https://theconversation.com/internet-for-all-remains-an-impossible-dream
>>>> -no-matter-what-jimmy-wales-says-48423
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The average worker in Ethiopia, for example, would n= eed to spend more
>>>> than one month’s salary to pay for even a very cheap= broadband
>>>> subscription."
>>>>
>>>>         Who said anything about b= roadband being the only metric for
>>>> "internet
>>>>         access" ?
>>>>
>>>>         It's a rather narrow visi= on. I think 10 years is quite
>>>> realistic.
>>>>         I think the barriers will= be political (repression) rather more
>>>>         than technical.
>>>>
>>>>         Cheers,
>>>>         Phil
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>>
gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arjuna Sathiaseelan
>>>> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/
>>>> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gaia mailing list
>>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gaia mailing list
>>> gaia@irtf.org
>>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gaia mailing list
>> gaia@irtf.org
>> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>

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--_000_D23D799640C73coffinisocorg_-- From nobody Fri Oct 9 11:08:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989F41B494F for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KgbPwFgUQXRK for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0091.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98B611B494E for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY1PR0601MB1434.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.162.111.21) by BY1PR0601MB1434.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.162.111.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.286.20; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:08:40 +0000 Received: from BY1PR0601MB1434.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.162.111.21]) by BY1PR0601MB1434.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([10.162.111.21]) with mapi id 15.01.0286.019; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:08:40 +0000 From: Jane Coffin To: Leandro Navarro , "gaia@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [gaia] Socio-economics in delivering the GAIA vision (lessons, obstacles, models), discussion in the next GAIA meeting (London Nov 30) Thread-Index: AQHRArlOiapn6yxuSkGX5/cVJVQobJ5jMnWA Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:08:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.5.150821 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=coffin@isoc.org; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [172.56.3.216] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BY1PR0601MB1434; 5:vqTtaJNaYdVlbrGhPh89utKagzxyE6FoT5DhWOT1BGwS89N7wJah6F+svZr2Ii18GUcY+2K9u8Eh4Zm4vf3iUm/P/H7wAsEUbz2f030K/5Kd4o+OAxfuDfBiny0CbEqCXwWiPOmUaHxTvS/AT8L5Dg==; 24:2FQWK3nz1lNa/Qsj28ymAIVJpk8zdYhD8nvt8zSGHqO7bGEtL0vQxVa4AFPeWldH2S0rcdxDpr0HLWQ2JknZZt0uE65/U5BrhU1GwfD+jDY=; 20:KZyghq19DDJZ5IzzXBedbg2G+S/PCH42WNJMqm1Mi0VvaiPKYnM++HWEB0RqVpbRhz+x2v+7jFnonLKe9QqzGw== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0601MB1434; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(520078)(3002001); SRVR:BY1PR0601MB1434; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BY1PR0601MB1434; x-forefront-prvs: 0724FCD4CD x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(377454003)(479174004)(24454002)(199003)(189002)(50986999)(122556002)(189998001)(5008740100001)(102836002)(5001770100001)(11100500001)(5002640100001)(15975445007)(5007970100001)(77096005)(107886002)(5004730100002)(19580395003)(5001960100002)(86362001)(10400500002)(36756003)(19580405001)(2501003)(97736004)(76176999)(4001350100001)(101416001)(87936001)(83506001)(2171001)(92566002)(99286002)(40100003)(81156007)(106116001)(105586002)(2950100001)(64706001)(66066001)(2900100001)(46102003)(54356999)(106356001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0601MB1434; H:BY1PR0601MB1434.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <4C867C5C59036D4BB8164043EF9E0291@namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Oct 2015 18:08:40.1951 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0601MB1434 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [gaia] Socio-economics in delivering the GAIA vision (lessons, obstacles, models), discussion in the next GAIA meeting (London Nov 30) X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 18:08:46 -0000 Leandro ;) This is a great idea. Supoprt it. Jane On 10/9/15, 1:17 PM, "gaia on behalf of Leandro Navarro" wrote: >Dear all,=20 > >A few weeks ago I proposed Arjuna for the next "Global Internet Access >for All" GAIA meeting (London, Nov 30, colocated with the ACM-DEV >conference) to have a one hour session (panel, but even better a >word-cafe style discussion) on socio-economic or business/sustainability >models of infrastructures and services for GAIA. > >Many of us know believe in the power of technological advances to lower >the barrier of Internet access, but to reach everyone we should deal with >a few other critical aspects, but this time it isn=B9t about the >technology, it=B9s everything about else, or at least: how can we deal wit= h >socio-economics all over the world so that everyone has a fair choice to >participate in the Internet? > >The idea would be to share lessons learned, organisational models, >measured impacts, obstacles, opportunities, alliances, campaigns, and of >course, enabling technologies. That would depend on the >participants/discussions leaders. The ultimate goal is to draft a GAIA >public document describing all these =B3non tech issues=B2 that can hinder >our vision.=20 > >The more diverse views and models the better. I can count on participants >from guifi.net, (including myself as one). A few more contacts have been >invited to present their experiences. Are you coming? > >If you could report or have contacts on initiatives from the past (e.g. >lessons from past failed initiatives), current or future (local like many >community networks or global such as Google Fibre, Internet.org) please >let me know.=20 >If you have a vision/experience to discuss in this meeting, let me know >by Monday 12 preferably, so I can prepare a tentative list of >participants.=20 > > >All the best, Leandro. > >_______________________________________________ >gaia mailing list >gaia@irtf.org >https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia From nobody Mon Oct 12 07:09:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14A21B32D0 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7QLbAEdxpD9 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0070.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F3341B32C9 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR06MB598.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.141.222.17) by BY2PR06MB678.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.141.224.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.293.16; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:08:54 +0000 Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ford@isoc.org; Received: from [192.168.0.9] (81.2.114.177) by BY2PR06MB598.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.141.222.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.293.16; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:08:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.0 \(3094\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" From: Matthew Ford In-Reply-To: <5617EC8F.6000408@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:08:30 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <40A3F3BB-CE4B-4C88-AD5C-D1AF1D5CC7B4@isoc.org> References: <1833013136.1529732.1444406772808.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5617EC8F.6000408@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3094) X-Originating-IP: [81.2.114.177] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB5PR03CA0053.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.164.34.21) To BY2PR06MB598.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (10.141.222.17) X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; 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BY2PR06MB598; 5:RLh8J+GcjOQ+ZExq7tXVpQK18HmxfNvpKiC3fLOXwpv/moArnunHyzf1W2kTFAUX5LilRfXL3sXuGlTxw2tUxFhApa5MHbCIs3drSFjGI3Blm0xdxYSyk3cUbnN4fuGfY+rLJr5NoDA2HDLth1Au6Q==; 24:+xcOlNbIn4CFr+q6QuFNrqm59RAW43VtOAq2ddea+PB9ju1lEoHXlreKJABbp+poGUiSDDXJZ+UUJqJnwrkACrUJU8fcibqYHR7s3WwT9SE=; 20:5QurwChH0SrRJaJ8Dtal8gMEMVjZ46f92xiPo/maQGdKdMr0tM/Jk4PaZa2UIoMP9n5gnS921PvfZrOihZw2zQ== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2015 14:08:50.3772 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR06MB598 X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BY2PR06MB678; 2:q0/F9kFwkNDbcWxUYi+20kNopZ7nz9ptAROI1CKIZ9qFzm0KDyzsA7bSCLa74tzSNOHs3B0xOwgrvxIolZsn5JPQPb4rMFD/F4U/rmQhQm4mb1n5zcW5p8S0U268Ydjm236+E0CB2bhQSkjMaRcruDZn7etMFXSKutW5CoRo3vw=; 23:Q6pSs3W04ZgBtr1cyi6ZUC1IbVUgbNfCGSaf63aoGFyadPe3BgoaRZPKHdcsrBphCrzUOaDvUVq7d0VXDe7RO5CrAINc2oLnoAV8mnC/AGOG5B/IpsA67Gks1UduORrVMe8ydhRqPI+t1I54pTZwMeQsFEY2X5hrqf3hfUKhUA05KZdF+SmHiqSnCt9zVrj5 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org Archived-At: Cc: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" , gaia , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "El Khatib, Yehia \(elkhatib\)" , Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:09:03 -0000 > On 9 Oct 2015, at 17:34, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > I'm not sure if there's a wiki for gaia but starting a page > like that may work. There=E2=80=99s http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/gaia= From nobody Mon Oct 12 07:36:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BAF21B3351 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wu81k2LZfTFT for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED1881B334F for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:36:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1444660568; bh=IF5e9bJ7hYb8IibynQagPmFlDgt6daMwFIYCAwfcQKc=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=VoE/F/VHVC+4XcDc8nt2Y/4sdRWAQMtZF5E4d++a8ZamCfcx8Z4WhMS9GdnkcgwTXC9twTTfNEHjH3nJ7RsG0s6cYhF3wQa5yhDq66vvqYTf+oJdr5IJ0t0L5/CSgZJX2mfNTNdBcUKNZn4TpPq0AJwc0xx0tTji6Mm+iZ73i4NcAqM/qO730/RE6Y32+DVSXEe5JEJ5hW6ueNvfouvSvHxzj0/ZxK2Zp4nwt1zCdM7O+WDHMcnBTjI8NAW1aM5jLsnk7TJWSi64r7ckhz2kr0m8AGZ06WzCxpEKAgmxY8ub7IyVDtDvTeHxol0eVNzsn31T+OuUJkzEvnezzWg9Bg== Received: from [98.138.100.111] by nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:36:08 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.234] by tm100.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:36:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1034.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:36:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 372811.95750.bm@omp1034.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: RkjMalAVM1lKcXzUU3dUWdIowGbx0UT5JIaPcLcbzMbhb5r._zuBT40H_xUzMfM xRm8DI9RO0uvqyLLG_en7zLXs80jDgCTJMVGLgC11HLqAdh4UnPwqSMBUBBJyJlWbwGb4JothcOj MHwYiXPkhbRL_WURBiceFyT3COfQmHkOlSb.SgMQmIb.cN2J5JKPnS6j6wXJepZVMmlSfWfPbLh8 7EDIkt3s7Vb.qsp1hWE.PIX0oogCzw8WUsD9V25VQGQ8HeNjouJQcn6tDC423qZ5m3XXtxqLEwxU qzUE.DPSFOM6im1dk2a071iqOqCLgpp2nyLT8MGdwGOZfs2aDYthh4FaVBYRVV_i2ToIEGTLeZzC CSrpMMmP6tsT3G35j.7y9wYO5a2XksVKnDqg8pSGdkl45u0pNWg_2a36e8NTzUROvprQogbVpN3g JytB6YM4e09ekursbrwsdkA6Lkmw7Pe2eCvKff4oqaJPJR4_o3Wob6PuujKNvDAyHZjccpnxG1ea hIue3jgL8rkotKjTAyoZ5.ueQ1E76N5vDfNSfA6M8IsmY8m5Vevly5TLKsORCj2PyPm9GmpM- Received: by 98.138.105.254; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:36:07 +0000 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:36:01 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Stephen Farrell , "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" Message-ID: <1783546651.2517601.1444660561251.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5617EC8F.6000408@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5617EC8F.6000408@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2517600_1503797194.1444660561244" Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Henning Schulzrinne , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:36:10 -0000 ------=_Part_2517600_1503797194.1444660561244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for=C2=A0each en= try: >- name of the original effort >- dates active >- overview of approach (1-2 paras) >- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) >- contact who added this info >- contact for original effort >- date this entry last updated >- references One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects f= ail. =C2=A0We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: Failure Reasons---------------------- Lack of sensitivity to culture- Unsus= tainable project (lack of training, etc. )-=C2=A0Cost- Lack of long term co= mmitment or will - Unintended consequences- "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fightin= g, theft, etc)- Obsoleted by better technology Proposing this as a strawman. =C2=A0Welcome comments on better categorizati= on, if people find this useful. Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate t= he actual project and actual reason for failure. =C2=A0 This may be sensiti= ve. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and FounderInside Products, Inc.www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 =C2=A0 ------=_Part_2517600_1503797194.1444660561244 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>So what we'd want is a big table w= ith maybe the following for each entry:

>- name of the original effort
>- dates active
>- overview of approach (1-2 paras)
>- status and/or reasons for closure/= ending/failure (1-2 paras)
>- contact who added this info
>- contact for original effort
>- date this entry last updated
>- references

One thing that we have been doing is to capture some = reasons why projects fail.  We may want to develop codes to indicate f= ailure type:

Failure Reasons
---------------------
- Lack of sensitivity to culture
- Unsustainable project (lack of tra= ining, etc. )
- Unintended consequences
- "Political" issues (bribery required, in-= fighting, theft, etc)
- O= bsoleted by better technology

Proposing this = as a strawman.  Welcome comments on better categorization, if people f= ind this useful.

Another thing I wonder about= is that some people may not want to indicate the actual project and actual= reason for failure.   This may be sensitive.

Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.= com
(831) 659-8360
 
------=_Part_2517600_1503797194.1444660561244-- From nobody Mon Oct 12 07:55:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353211A1BB0 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:55:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PBtzD1W6dXAb for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm42-vm7.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm42-vm7.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.121.63]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D701A1B8E for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:55:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1444661734; bh=QnHXvNGOK4fSKzgCLyu8r5M4zibzpfA03gSwPWbYaR4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=AYZopvY0pMLoxg4Z7cSf33x+sJjs0/XdUMway1maf9SlgjweqPJ7DUDqo7Zw1DJcX8c5J0eO7Og7aPkFOb6+POw0Ov1J+Bu2/QGeaz31705GkOWfFVnJ2fjiM/e46MNCjfWP0qNAEaVZIqzS5KbGg3FnYxPhlV/sZbimod2rHWqYAnRb1dGtxgpznGoc5J15c6+AoXPT9SpFoziahu3uIBpW+yHWBSIiNrwC0CsjbhJQguAcre3TVMx0Bo+Z08zVX1qpn0LkulR/JkzGPyf/8QVCXe/m2XhElbRWbVIrmG2CCz1IfrMse0mmdKV8KFg4vM5wVnYG4StcleK3xwd+uA== Received: from [127.0.0.1] by nm42.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:55:34 -0000 Received: from [98.138.100.116] by nm42.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:52:54 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.245] by tm107.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:52:54 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1059.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 14:52:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-4 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 479553.95251.bm@omp1059.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: LvCRwtYVM1l0yzQ9Es2_i02yUGe_U657IbsNXD3GmuOuoPezu_Z4b9OSVT2hgqt k9FSpZ1l3xY8MQhDbJOBS_YDZ4h2DRZII_kNIGm3r2dFdJcWyk43psNiu305byWazy16CLxh_NQ2 V_ABEtN3TdbvI.B4OSKC3Fo4LXmNCA4y0xMys5mco6VdlhvI5P4nE0IDwud4yrQ79ju4wWhk7NVO SOAwk4rJSUpLWnLgwsiL6AH3udXswrEnLw2seBfiCvz5POjaTG6mVEmrje2H603z4NZhx5h9PJhR XhAmbJgh3h4yfYP.GYI6y1olGcAEFCzSy8jh1DT1h6OlfG0rpToeEz0Tq9LJuFDS5HNX4SOb2CqF Ut5ZCAMm1xV.y2Sr3nyymyecv4XIXYlGQmD6NFUxX3ECAFF2kXf8DybOSr3oyeZfxLKghfHxSqiz GAeYL2Meva0xUh2O0RaRx_Iv4wP5HLoHa.uvt5SzJbKx_9Qe8ia76kCHxdCs7Mp8S5kftSQAp9Xs b8NzSGUZk Received: by 98.138.101.168; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:52:54 +0000 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:52:53 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" Message-ID: <511507585.2544762.1444661573429.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1783546651.2517601.1444660561251.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1783546651.2517601.1444660561251.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2544761_1298405038.1444661573423" Archived-At: Cc: gaia Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:55:36 -0000 ------=_Part_2544761_1298405038.1444661573423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think those "Political issues" listed ought to be split up.=C2=A0 Into pr= ivate and governmental, if you will.=20 - Political issues: bribery required, other corruption (e.g. governmental t= heft), government resistance, nationalism, etc.- "Other (privagte)" [need a= better name]: theft (private, as opposed to governmental), staff move to o= ther jobs as soon as they are trained, etc. Bill Jouris From: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" To: Stephen Farrell ; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhat= ib)" =20 Cc: gaia ; Arjuna Sathiaseelan ; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" ; H= enning Schulzrinne =20 Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream =20 >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for=C2=A0each en= try: >- name of the original effort >- dates active >- overview of approach (1-2 paras) >- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) >- contact who added this info >- contact for original effort >- date this entry last updated >- references One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects f= ail. =C2=A0We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: Failure Reasons---------------------- Lack of sensitivity to culture- Unsus= tainable project (lack of training, etc. )-=C2=A0Cost- Lack of long term co= mmitment or will - Unintended consequences- "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fightin= g, theft, etc)- Obsoleted by better technology Proposing this as a strawman. =C2=A0Welcome comments on better categorizati= on, if people find this useful. Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate t= he actual project and actual reason for failure. =C2=A0 This may be sensiti= ve. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and FounderInside Products, Inc.www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 =C2=A0 ------=_Part_2544761_1298405038.1444661573423 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think those "Political issues" listed ought= to be split up.  Into private and governmental, if you will.
- Political issues: bribery required, other corrupti= on (e.g. governmental theft), government resistance, nationalism, etc.
- "Other (privagte)" [need a better name]: theft (pri= vate, as opposed to governmental), staff move to other jobs as soon as they= are trained, etc.
=
Bill Jouris
=


From: "nalin= i.elkins@insidethestack.com" <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>
<= b>To: Stephen Farrell <ste= phen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" <y.elkhatib@la= ncaster.ac.uk>
Cc: = gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.= cam.ac.uk>; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethest= ack.com>; Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36= AM
Subject: Re: [gaia= ] Internet for all remains an impossible dream

>So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for&nbs= p;each entry:

>- name of the original effort
>- dates= active
>- overview of approach (1-2 paras)
>- status and/o= r reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras)
>- contact who add= ed this info
>- contact for original effort
>- date this e= ntry last updated
>- references

One thing that we have been doing is to capture so= me reasons why projects fail.  We may want to develop codes to indicat= e failure type:

Fai= lure Reasons
---------------------
- Lack of sensitivity to culture
- Unsustainable project (lack of training, = etc. )
-&nbs= p;Cost
- Lack of long term commitment or will
- Unintended consequences
- "Political" = issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc)
- Obsoleted by better technology

Proposing this as a st= rawman.  Welcome comments on better categorization, if people find thi= s useful.
Another t= hing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate the actual= project and actual reason for failure.   This may be sensitive.
=

Thanks,=

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-= 8360
 


= ------=_Part_2544761_1298405038.1444661573423-- From nobody Mon Oct 12 08:03:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50E41A6F2E for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-p20qS7_0N6 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from buckwheat.cc.columbia.edu (buckwheat.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.72.251]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BE7A1A6F15 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hazelnut (hazelnut.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.213.250]) by buckwheat.cc.columbia.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9CF034V030277 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:03:44 -0400 Received: from hazelnut (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920C782 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salak.cc.columbia.edu (salak.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.29.6]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C816D for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-yk0-f175.google.com (mail-yk0-f175.google.com [209.85.160.175]) by salak.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id t9CF3h3F024801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ykoo7 with SMTP id o7so22456808yko.0 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=VZPMN5Sor1FsviyxZlllcbYI7x3NBEn2lThIoqQ8+vA=; b=lbz3YpSbAfAKTboF4J8UWvCKeW4oUoavQuoA5ACXpbhyDRRwTYuWWx3l15OAbf8KDF 5oElFJmKCLG46aEHzOwEhwgMw526SSs6F1tGyAuZvQTqgBu6m0XQJ5mqyYJZQzOBK3Tn XhY8XG6+WklKnNXb1yKvhsJZJ5Jjbsf0P8arW4XYCIm0DS3Gh6GqYmkfSoRgOKvKVeV+ h3NQI99ASF4Cc5FPWTvSB1+n6VTMzMR5OHQ6Wi9VfouMQ2gSR3HLmGTFhSrDlZHLxLzv O5QEd95ElB9KBepRu5NrJ9obbHpbm+HdEk6rBCzUngxPOWlVwKwFu+zlBJDuq/zLFo4Q Sm/g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnagvyU0C59fM1OWzxiLF8jOKQG4jdiubdjOM/ACUaYL4qfLzf7FlIKpxz9RtAPZaYXU7GR8PedReUy8asn4i4xWYRcQS+DFNYDxYaGOrYHJiwuc8ADop4toek9Ij8inyGqIWhy X-Received: by 10.13.201.199 with SMTP id l190mr20208610ywd.39.1444662223712; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.13.201.199 with SMTP id l190mr20208594ywd.39.1444662223540; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.208.2 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:03:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1783546651.2517601.1444660561251.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5617EC8F.6000408@cs.tcd.ie> <1783546651.2517601.1444660561251.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Henning Schulzrinne Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:03:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: Nalini Elkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e711ca7d2120521e9a2a3 X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 128.59.29.6 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" , Arjuna Sathiaseelan , "El Khatib, Yehia \(elkhatib\)" , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:03:48 -0000 --001a114e711ca7d2120521e9a2a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This is a classical example (or close to it) where survivor bias comes into play. The old "...victory has 100 fathers and defeat is an orphan...." (attributed to JFK). Those less-than-successful projects will likely have been orphaned by their creators, who have moved on, hopefully to better things. Also, in some cases, technology trials aren't really meant to scale, just prove that the technology, as a component, works (and this is a good thing since these can often be done by smaller teams and with fewer resources than full-scale deployment). Hopefully, people performing those trials will recognize that deployment success and social impact require far more than working technology. That said, even *some* information on failure modes is better than what we have (with the exception of a paper or two already mentioned on this list). On the other hand, whether it is communication, education, medical interventions, energy or water, I wouldn't be surprised if the list of failure causes listed isn't pretty universal. As the relatively new kid on the development block, there's probably a lot to learn from those who have worked on these other topics for years. Henning On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, wrote: > >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for each entry: > > >- name of the original effort > >- dates active > >- overview of approach (1-2 paras) > >- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) > >- contact who added this info > >- contact for original effort > >- date this entry last updated > >- references > > One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects > fail. We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: > > Failure Reasons > --------------------- > - Lack of sensitivity to culture > - Unsustainable project (lack of training, etc. ) > - Cost > - Lack of long term commitment or will > - Unintended consequences > - "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc) > - Obsoleted by better technology > > Proposing this as a strawman. Welcome comments on better categorization, > if people find this useful. > > Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate > the actual project and actual reason for failure. This may be sensitive. > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > --001a114e711ca7d2120521e9a2a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a classical example (or close to it) where survivo= r bias comes into play. The old "...victory has 100 fathers and defeat= is an orphan...." (attributed to JFK). Those less-than-successful pro= jects will likely have been orphaned by their creators, who have moved on, = hopefully to better things.

Also, in some cases, technol= ogy trials aren't really meant to scale, just prove that the technology= , as a component, works (and this is a good thing since these can often be = done by smaller teams and with fewer resources than full-scale deployment).= Hopefully, people performing those trials will recognize that deployment s= uccess and social impact require far more than working technology.
=
That said, even *some* information on failure modes is bette= r than what we have (with the exception of a paper or two already mentioned= on this list). On the other hand, whether it is communication, education, = medical interventions, energy or water, I wouldn't be surprised if the = list of failure causes listed isn't pretty universal. As the relatively= new kid on the development block, there's probably a lot to learn from= those who have worked on these other topics for years.

Henning

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, <nalini.el= kins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
>So what we'd want = is a big table with maybe the following for=C2=A0each entry:

>- n= ame of the original effort
>- dates active
>- overview of appro= ach (1-2 paras)
>- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (= 1-2 paras)
>- contact who added this info
>- contact for origin= al effort
>- date this entry last updated
>- references

One thing that we have been doing is to capture some = reasons why projects fail.=C2=A0 We may want to develop codes to indicate f= ailure type:

Failure Reasons
-----------= ----------
- Lack of sensitivity to culture
- Unsustain= able project (lack of training, etc. )
-=C2=A0Cost
- Lack of long term commitment or will
- Unintend= ed consequences
- "Political" issues (bribery required,= in-fighting, theft, etc)
- Obsoleted by better technology
<= div>
Proposing this as a strawman.=C2=A0 Welcome comments on = better categorization, if people find this useful.

Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate = the actual project and actual reason for failure. =C2=A0 This may be sensit= ive.

Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Found= er
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
=C2=A0

--001a114e711ca7d2120521e9a2a3-- From nobody Mon Oct 12 08:13:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECE31A6F7C for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cLulDfVXgSYk for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm27-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm27-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F03EC1A6F63 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:13:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1444662822; bh=UOjBCYHg0yJtgum3SCQf3IH8JguzOcLTqOvf+9zWsZ0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=HnsfFiWSBznqeIOp5nHuoyUOp5gxRdGxShmpo4aYEPgUHH6YluAuVDd2xU14//cLL9R8zvy5SUs8Lb/RcxKR59hg1GEo1K+DXRNPmVR+AmsCXw/Y3tJ1j4Cjn1Bb+DdciTSzLKMLvyxvkpOi6PFb95WaS2oz1EKBDB+dYhoyMTKkBV/oRhNce+vZO9dyi0y5AVggtUHRtR4TJmlqceknzgiI44uvdKrir0fPBD1zwQ5nMF/BkhK8jWuUgtkn4ZAsHIPrzMUho1h3rU3QfIAHDSHN85Dq6UjYdQVwEO6GleHlzOC0S1cmg0XYYOekg7YULsW+Z4VV73gEwLJNHqMsGA== Received: from [98.138.100.113] by nm27.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 15:13:42 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.162] by tm104.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 15:13:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1063.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2015 15:13:42 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 182563.62695.bm@omp1063.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: fMRaXkwVM1l.iX8bZjYRibvhhrmnL3PBzXI.0GyNr3eTWTr9jvS.JnZzkiwYn1q 4AKG..Rs.8ZfEoAzw8YrM3Y2IpryWnQBJXf.fBndVhMGZG3g.P22oLMG58Dz1mQBEnWyMPBII6Bp yLYKP78.QlS4A4zdHNRX3MOsh01G7lBKjUKpgK1rZcmyRk2Ad3D0RQRCcl6y6yC02VFbQ6ZM_lsg nYE1rOOW8s3bQvDpIHoGvpSchZT0xJWn9mwzmp0BnIi7AkEnvVgVqQABeWspPcvtVH01QslSz.R. 2mFKPzmOjZbisioAuzeqen5hqw0iiEXtR.nPgstyiw3wM5zCubUk_Li9ZIB02Wjb7rqynl39f5hE iAdeKtzNvHsgfek3rLeq3qdnkkwdHGljE7nwQWHsyYOn9F0r6f2xJ4LTfrB7Cfp6esEKTZoZR43I xBAMkPGa6cVJ.DOibL0qg3V0M29.4wk5qpDTocAvG_amvzE8kdmknd6v5NTvW4yDXfobkzB.FO5H CJXZYF6EO6mx6KcwsJBpFB9RdpT70DOMqctBd7VMlI1x3 Received: by 98.138.101.176; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:13:41 +0000 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:13:34 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Henning Schulzrinne Message-ID: <357904162.2533543.1444662814400.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Stephen Farrell , "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" , "El Khatib, Yehia \(elkhatib\)" , Arjuna Sathiaseelan Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:13:45 -0000 First, I very much support this effort. I believe this will be quite useful to others who can learn from mistakes. It is totally OK to fail - but learn from the failure! My day jobs have been in Silicon Valley where, failure is an accepted step towards eventual success. >On the other hand, whether it is communication, education, medical interventions, energy or water, I wouldn't be surprised if the list of failure causes listed isn't pretty universal. Very definitely agree on this. I was thinking of the mosquito nets debacle which had the unintended consequence of being used as fishing nets leading to overfishing, catching baby fish, etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/world/africa/mosquito-nets-for-malaria-spawn-new-epidemic-overfishing.html?_r=0 Scaling a technology can be quite difficult. Documenting "unintended consequences" is important. Thanks, Nalini Elkins Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ________________________________ From: Henning Schulzrinne To: Nalini Elkins Cc: gaia ; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" ; Arjuna Sathiaseelan ; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" ; Stephen Farrell Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream This is a classical example (or close to it) where survivor bias comes into play. The old "...victory has 100 fathers and defeat is an orphan...." (attributed to JFK). Those less-than-successful projects will likely have been orphaned by their creators, who have moved on, hopefully to better things. Also, in some cases, technology trials aren't really meant to scale, just prove that the technology, as a component, works (and this is a good thing since these can often be done by smaller teams and with fewer resources than full-scale deployment). Hopefully, people performing those trials will recognize that deployment success and social impact require far more than working technology. That said, even *some* information on failure modes is better than what we have (with the exception of a paper or two already mentioned on this list). On the other hand, whether it is communication, education, medical interventions, energy or water, I wouldn't be surprised if the list of failure causes listed isn't pretty universal. As the relatively new kid on the development block, there's probably a lot to learn from those who have worked on these other topics for years. Henning On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:36 AM, wrote: >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for each entry: > >>- name of the original effort >>- dates active >>- overview of approach (1-2 paras) >>- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) >>- contact who added this info >>- contact for original effort >>- date this entry last updated >>- references > > > >One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects fail. We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: > > >Failure Reasons >--------------------- >- Lack of sensitivity to culture >- Unsustainable project (lack of training, etc. ) >- Cost- Lack of long term commitment or will > >- Unintended consequences >- "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc) >- Obsoleted by better technology > > >Proposing this as a strawman. Welcome comments on better categorization, if people find this useful. > > >Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate the actual project and actual reason for failure. This may be sensitive. > >Thanks, > >Nalini Elkins > >CEO and Founder >Inside Products, Inc.www.insidethestack.com >(831) 659-8360 > _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia From nobody Mon Oct 12 23:14:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8F91B3904 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8RIw1WEWd6F for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AB591B3901 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbk10 with SMTP id k10so7597713lbb.0 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1ScTi4dlvtHntsonmy40PZ+TCitwud55I6ycp9gq+O4=; b=WIvANlV1INUnlnEVzd6CPOQUNoGs6adofGurI1PirqLqxGO/QrOi2T8IupdjUxRFbk cLuX1FQ43qk9JBmwdmKqcddE0yhcMGhOHUIwtpSuoJmP7Rpw1JFQxxLJnNbHh4oEi46N /ErWvvDYw2arQge5f0kU6jt8scEm3GOqy8YZgYzitNHVRu61tlGSaDQ7xzYXxOAJ5cFt q4D3YkrF1GLlahOzumtz/aYEg1NPg4Ydub6oOQ9ZGcMEeoZDzId3DU5WFa6JMpMoWpK5 nuANceTHjGyGW3wtYZaDAGBTI4H4VEVZLvZCVh0rslNLfhr0EOum3Mf6AhYsXTMmNCAE Jp5g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.163.133 with SMTP id m127mr9291552lfe.121.1444716867116; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:14:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <511507585.2544762.1444661573429.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1783546651.2517601.1444660561251.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <511507585.2544762.1444661573429.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 07:14:26 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: BZ8cstL1zqWt5doUUyjG2QacwTE Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11411c38aa66a60521f65b3d Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Nalini Elkins Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 06:14:32 -0000 --001a11411c38aa66a60521f65b3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I like Nalini's characterisation since it falls into the categories of tech, economics, social, regulation/political and capacity building. Diving a bit deeper (for e.g. corruption) may not be so diplomatic? :) Regards On 12 Oct 2015 15:55, wrote: > I think those "Political issues" listed ought to be split up. Into > private and governmental, if you will. > - Political issues: bribery required, other corruption (e.g. governmental > theft), government resistance, nationalism, etc. > - "Other (privagte)" [need a better name]: theft (private, as opposed to > governmental), staff move to other jobs as soon as they are trained, etc. > > Bill Jouris > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" < > nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> > *To:* Stephen Farrell ; "El Khatib, Yehia > (elkhatib)" > *Cc:* gaia ; Arjuna Sathiaseelan < > arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" < > bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; Henning Schulzrinne > > *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36 AM > *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream > > >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for each entry: > > >- name of the original effort > >- dates active > >- overview of approach (1-2 paras) > >- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) > >- contact who added this info > >- contact for original effort > >- date this entry last updated > >- references > > One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects > fail. We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: > > Failure Reasons > --------------------- > - Lack of sensitivity to culture > - Unsustainable project (lack of training, etc. ) > - Cost > - Lack of long term commitment or will > - Unintended consequences > - "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc) > - Obsoleted by better technology > > Proposing this as a strawman. Welcome comments on better categorization, > if people find this useful. > > Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate > the actual project and actual reason for failure. This may be sensitive. > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > --001a11411c38aa66a60521f65b3d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I like Nalini's characterisation since it falls into the= categories of tech, economics, social, regulation/political and capacity b= uilding.

Diving a bit deeper (for e.g. corruption) may not be so dipl= omatic? :)

Regards

On 12 Oct 2015 15:55, <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wrote:<= br type=3D"attribution">
I think those "= ;Political issues" listed ought to be split up.=C2=A0 Into private and= governmental, if you will.
- Political issues:= bribery required, other corruption (e.g. governmental theft), government r= esistance, nationalism, etc.
- "Other (privagte= )" [need a better name]: theft (private, as opposed to governmental), = staff move to other jobs as soon as they are trained, etc.

Bill Jouris


From:<= /b> "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" <nalini.elkins@insidethestack= .com>
To: Stephen= Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)"= <y.elkh= atib@lancaster.ac.uk>
Cc: gaia <gaia@i= rtf.org>; Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>= ;; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com&= gt;; Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remai= ns an impossible dream

>So what we'd want is a big table with mayb= e the following for=C2=A0each entry:

>- name of the original effo= rt
>- dates active
>- overview of approach (1-2 paras)
>-= status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras)
>- cont= act who added this info
>- contact for original effort
>- date = this entry last updated
>- references

On= e thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects fai= l.=C2=A0 We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type:
<= br>
Failure Reasons
---------------------
- L= ack of sensitivity to culture
- Unsustainable project (lack of tr= aining, etc. )
-=C2=A0Cost
- Lack= of long term commitment or will
- Unintended consequences
- "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc= )
- Obsoleted by better technology

Propo= sing this as a strawman.=C2=A0 Welcome comments on better categorization, i= f people find this useful.

Another thing I wonder = about is that some people may not want to indicate the actual project and a= ctual reason for failure. =C2=A0 This may be sensitive.

Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Prod= ucts, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
=C2=A0



______________________= _________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

--001a11411c38aa66a60521f65b3d-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 03:21:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772721A1BE9 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHG1jWNOpvvu for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22b.google.com (mail-lb0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8450A1A1BDC for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbcao8 with SMTP id ao8so14142826lbc.3 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:21:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ACc13HZh5bp01eYjQbmX2rZni/W8+78XeKdCAs2Y+FE=; b=N7aSCBrx7ufBmshrOXaM7/ho7zkTjtt3QFxEBtjtMCSsSABDk+IKtvXN7iOrHv/ZWS IES7wX45+H2xPZ7ZrGLiwKKTZvHa46ZF4/Abw6dIAYojMGhCNgnUvgizEmLYBQ3s++Qv R8ldTx4dCqfrAqQ8QxEgvQDKFkuJiz2lDitBTlyqM70H+yYeYdfnSQIT3HE1nDlCH++K WSlLTNpAAYWETsbRLxlEhDQX6s4RHNF3XYiLwNTYgEkj/rSZAdmjg0VBhxT2zz9GMHBh P6tkqknuSOiQsApGJ33OkBYQpdTbKuOB7zRERB0A69q/LnpZJg/dOb/FpkxTV55rABYX 8Hqw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.129.202 with SMTP id ny10mr14490168lbb.112.1444731685710; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:21:25 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 82gt8EVmyvoQJuHdcVw_514tYx0 Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: gaia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf198eaec36c40521f9ce88 Archived-At: Cc: tier Subject: [gaia] ACM DEV 2015 Registration X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:21:29 -0000 --047d7bf198eaec36c40521f9ce88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 All, The ACM DEV 2015 (http://www.acmdev.org/) registration is now open. The registration cost includes access to the IRTF GAIA workshop on November 30, 2015 (program to follow soon) and the social event on Dec 1st. Regards -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --047d7bf198eaec36c40521f9ce88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,
=C2=A0 The ACM DEV 2015 (http://www.acmdev.org/) registration is now open. The regist= ration cost includes access to the IRTF GAIA workshop on November 30, 2015 = (program to follow soon) and the social event on Dec 1st.

Regards

--
--047d7bf198eaec36c40521f9ce88-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 03:36:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1F91A8AF8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.423 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.423 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pNHod2Swzruq for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x232.google.com (mail-lb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D66B11A8F4C for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbwr8 with SMTP id r8so14544772lbw.2 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:36:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Z7MSwqoLd5z9TdUwUtAliW6A01tjUpVVlT9JBQaiPPU=; b=czaN0KV5LEsYNzzL2/OhuPFV93hdWBQkjvrp+JJN4P6ALn+8xnv03S9LgUBdsABLtQ 40GbRXezUW2QcIEw8bY3B4xA3HTD62ygAYhxLmMYxBc62MQpNvX2VlB2QqgAwL3A+eoW b/9oNIzNKzHRWI3L0oGXlP2IUEuS7+6XtFArLJLIeLB10aaiD2C62Hud2gwaedEtplFq BW44B2QmqS3OA9u/WUyGSI1izfBMWasBM2h71ddZCwyJ3jp0ryp5hqKVj9cuT7hD0V4/ z/fZ2eNTKhASSFrazkT+nW/pDBOyxB5gV87YMVbI+wirJSG52gxSp1XSmOKBKKUmTgTR wVVA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.155.195 with SMTP id vy3mr14860137lbb.9.1444732603988; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:36:43 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Z5SoRCrhF5OgUHiqi14JmFpZEpU Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: gaia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0115ff2aa804720521fa059f Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] GAIA Workshop@DEV 2015 Agenda X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:36:47 -0000 --089e0115ff2aa804720521fa059f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear All, Please find the final agenda for the GAIA workshop co-located with ACM DEV on Nov 30th at the Queen Mary University London. (some title of the talks are subject to change). ----- Agenda ---------- 8:30: Coffee 8:45-9:00: Chairs Welcome 9:00-9:30 Adisorn Lertsinsrubtavee (University of Cambridge) - Rural Community Wireless Mesh Deployment Experiences from Thailand 9:30-10:00: Trevor Barker (Avanti Consulting) - Next generation satellite broadband for developing regions 10:00-10:30: Yehia El Khatib (Lancaster University) - Does the Internet deserve everybody? 10:30-11:00 Coffee 11:00-11:30 Richard Dent (University of Cambridge) - The capability to trust strangers online: opportunities and barriers 11:30-12:00 Sheharbano Khattak (University of Cambridge) - Internet Censorship in Developing Countries: A Case Study of Pakistan 12:00-12:30 David Johnson (CSIR) - TV white space in South Africa - what we've learnt and where we're heading 12:30-2:00 Lunch 2:00-3:30: Demo based talks 2:00-2:30 Andres Arcia Moret (University of Cambridge)- Zebra RFO: Open and Regionalised Spectrum Repositories for the developing world? 2:30-3:00 Dirk Trossen (InterDigital)- Localizing communication for an affordable Internet - demo of recent EU activities 3:00-3:30 Liang Wang (University of Cambridge) - Intelligent service caching for developing regions 3:30-4:00 Coffee 4:00-5:00 Session: Socio-economics in delivering the "Global Internet Access for All" (GAIA) vision (lessons, obstacles, models) (Chair: Leandro Navarro (UPC)) 6:00 onwards: The Great British Pub Experience (Chair: Gareth Tyson) Regards -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --089e0115ff2aa804720521fa059f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
=C2=A0 Please find the final agen= da for the GAIA workshop co-located with ACM DEV on Nov 30th at the Queen M= ary University London. (some title of the talks are subject to change).

-----

Agenda=C2=A0
----------
8:30: Coffee

8:45-9:00: Chai= rs Welcome
9:00-9:30 Adisorn Lertsinsrubtavee (University of Cambridge) = - Rural Community Wireless Mesh Deployment Experiences from Thailand
9:3= 0-10:00: Trevor Barker (Avanti Consulting) - Next generation satellite broa= dband for developing regions
10:00-10:30: Yehia El Khatib (Lancaster Uni= versity) - Does the Internet deserve everybody?

10:30-11:= 00 Coffee

11:00-11:30 Richard Dent =C2=A0(University of Cambr= idge) - The capability to trust strangers online: opportunities and barrier= s
11:30-12:00 Sheharbano Khattak (University of Cambridge) - Internet Ce= nsorship in Developing Countries: A Case Study of Pakistan
12:00-12:30 D= avid Johnson (CSIR) - TV white space in South Africa - what we've learn= t and where we're heading

12:30-2:00 Lunch=C2=A0

2= :00-3:30: Demo based talks
2:00-2:30 =C2=A0Andres Arcia Moret (Universit= y of Cambridge)- Zebra RFO: Open and Regionalised Spectrum Repositories for= the developing world?
2:30-3:00 Dirk Trossen (InterDigital)- Localizing= communication for an affordable Internet - demo of recent EU activities
3:00-3:30 =C2=A0Liang Wang (University of Cambridge) - Intelligent = service caching for developing regions

3:30-4:00 Coffee
4:00-5:00 Session: Socio-economics in delivering the "Global Int= ernet Access for All" (GAIA) vision (lessons, obstacles, models) (Chai= r: Leandro Navarro (UPC))

6:00 onwards: The Great = British Pub Experience (Chair: Gareth Tyson)

Regar= ds=C2=A0


--
--089e0115ff2aa804720521fa059f-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 08:48:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFD31B4791 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4HPDa_i5l5Ac for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm47-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm47-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.121.101]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 514881B478E for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:48:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1444751304; bh=LzKbrLNiiAeJL6q0ay8kQRRiuEa46GuAmSu7ka99POU=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=VDrrLXXlOFhipXaRvqwVNL42I886rpEedCPvUF+d1sRivG9lrT6xC+2xUpUuHLtcvmeJ76JVdYb/yTmXB7sh2UR3z4meuUb68jZChMu3kP26PcQDcZzaCOWL8OChIqz62jyemMsblGN/P3JUjpOcvFz0Ze0CYTNTPE6emf2u2Uur6e4jbYy/4GAwqKKeEqrQgXDPTh+LYGFPrLvoODsFAm+QerGg88BA/vZ1DCq46sFitYXyocphp3FFh7zcrqqU0MGvx/kbRbnfkivSMbkZA2mqtP3KxtUAhswIk6ohYxrc3uU0CD0NL10juROrY0IXmOlM6N4NJbTvEbEgIkKU7g== Received: from [127.0.0.1] by nm47.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2015 15:48:24 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.177] by nm47.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2015 15:45:24 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.237] by tm12.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2015 15:45:24 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1037.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2015 15:45:24 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-4 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 510650.11608.bm@omp1037.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: nE_L9KYVM1kv_iH1Zhb8rEThZPtsWJE6xnNPmgVWCm67y7seHRZhSYqzwJEaj5y QTIS13zrrUHASg0QwfjekQwodXEbXi9120RfW6dTQr8xBC8b2DtOkW8YJyL51skKO45Mr8vKXRYH bw8McV33l_uA2YsA3ekDCslJNkuqO876qpCDyZvIXMOm5UTRzmN9CzKzYmPCep6MSgfwQihMZ6V2 Xd9InhnaQQzoYXUSwjgUEgYX8hn1iOH01cljhCjHO71JwY2rWZduku9sIH7sLHS0NmSQxP1HY6IZ 9rB6iUUNTPGoOQ8DMnX9cr8EGDBSOqKQmrVhIVwtqfYWA8px7eOfN1unRLDUiPSn56UoiDOQzK14 tHr0YpQvgUq1vrxeyhqHRsJ3AMRA8PGYa8e9502GCskxy.dAKRlVhoxGEFbRMwRw_In9V7Upd3.0 NjT51PSEdgPlCia44YdCmqOkAGNqA_MHfv2jXEeFsaP9LiYp55ELctNpeOm8H1vgY_LO7OWOc8Xl evCcV2iTY Received: by 98.138.105.217; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:45:24 +0000 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:45:21 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan Message-ID: <730886980.3160784.1444751121730.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3160783_714893464.1444751121722" Archived-At: Cc: gaia Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:48:28 -0000 ------=_Part_3160783_714893464.1444751121722 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, good point.=C2=A0 The diplomatic aspects had not occurred to me.=C2=A0 = I guess I was imagining it as a strictly internal (but to whom?) database.= =20 Bill From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com=20 Cc: gaia ; Nalini Elkins = =20 Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream =20 I like Nalini's characterisation since it falls into the categories of tech= , economics, social, regulation/political and capacity building.Diving a bi= t deeper (for e.g. corruption) may not be so diplomatic? :)RegardsOn 12 Oct= 2015 15:55, wrote: I think those "Political issues" listed ought to be split up.=C2=A0 Into pr= ivate and governmental, if you will.=20 - Political issues: bribery required, other corruption (e.g. governmental t= heft), government resistance, nationalism, etc.- "Other (privagte)" [need a= better name]: theft (private, as opposed to governmental), staff move to o= ther jobs as soon as they are trained, etc. Bill Jouris From: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" To: Stephen Farrell ; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhat= ib)" =20 Cc: gaia ; Arjuna Sathiaseelan ; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" ; H= enning Schulzrinne =20 Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream =20 >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for=C2=A0each en= try: >- name of the original effort >- dates active >- overview of approach (1-2 paras) >- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) >- contact who added this info >- contact for original effort >- date this entry last updated >- references One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects f= ail.=C2=A0 We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: Failure Reasons---------------------- Lack of sensitivity to culture- Unsus= tainable project (lack of training, etc. )-=C2=A0Cost- Lack of long term co= mmitment or will - Unintended consequences- "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fightin= g, theft, etc)- Obsoleted by better technology Proposing this as a strawman.=C2=A0 Welcome comments on better categorizati= on, if people find this useful. Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate t= he actual project and actual reason for failure. =C2=A0 This may be sensiti= ve. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and FounderInside Products, Inc.www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 =C2=A0 ------=_Part_3160783_714893464.1444751121722 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah, good point.  The diplomatic aspects had not occu= rred to me.  I guess I was imagining it as a strictly internal (but to= whom?) database.

Bill


From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.s= athiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To:<= /span> bill.jouris@insidethestack.com
Cc: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; Nalini Elkins <nalin= i.elkins@insidethestack.com>
= Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains a= n impossible dream

I like Nalini's characterisation since it falls into the categ= ories of tech, economics, social, regulation/political and capacity buildin= g.
Diving a bit deeper (for e.g. corruption) may not be so di= plomatic? :)
Regards
On 12 Oct 2015 15:55, <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wro= te:


<= div class=3D"yiv2286437591yqt1322743526" id=3D"yiv2286437591yqt31370">
I think those "Political issues" listed ought to be split up.  Int= o private and governmental, if you will.
- Political issues: bribery required, other corruption (e.g. gover= nmental theft), government resistance, nationalism, etc.
<= span>- "Other (privagte)" [need a better name]: theft (private, as opposed = to governmental), staff move to other jobs as soon as they are trained, etc= .

Bill Jouris


From: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" <nalini.elkins@ins= idethestack.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; "El Khatib= , Yehia (elkhatib)" <y.elkhatib@lancaster.ac.uk>
Cc: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; Arjuna Sathiaseelan <ar= juna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu&g= t;
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an = impossible dream

>So what w= e'd want is a big table with maybe the following for each entry:

>- name of the original effort
>- dates active
>- overview of approach (= 1-2 paras)
>- status and/or reasons for closure/ending= /failure (1-2 paras)
>- contact who added this info>- contact for original effort
>- d= ate this entry last updated
>- references

One thing that we have been = doing is to capture some reasons why projects fail.  We may want to de= velop codes to indicate failure type:

Failure Reasons
---------------------
- Lack of sens= itivity to culture
- Unsustainable project (lack of training, etc= . )
Cost
- Lack of long term commitment or = will
- Unintended consequences
- "Politica= l" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc)
- Obsoleted= by better technology

Proposing thi= s as a strawman.  Welcome comments on better categorization, if people= find this useful.

Another thing I = wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate the actual projec= t and actual reason for failure.   This may be sensitive.
Thanks,

Nalini = Elkins
CEO an= d Founder
Inside Products,= Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
<= a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">(831) 659-8360
 
------=_Part_3160783_714893464.1444751121722-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 10:39:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ED81A00A7 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:39:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SUoqk_9MT6YI for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x229.google.com (mail-lb0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42D091A00A1 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbk10 with SMTP id k10so29170324lbb.0 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ekcVBLtzf7jxsadlbfAGKg8jsyQF7Og0RTXV27FXozc=; b=wfX2JmWxjgRYZjeP7RKtJtNvoP9UavGlF/PhsET9cuvANdf2P1X/pVj7FhlBU+X4z0 jHWtA7KfJEsIeCEImiv5Q9ljJXsIiGU7kcANpIHlINtvHnsQMHkJiz+1q3kkLtvRlhLW y0TFASC0P5JKTZrnxlfhMdwIYhkMl/P+pYV4x8aFEr4x4JanDOMSAMMdYEcQfJpCi8Fd NRk06EY4dafggeDJxgE3Sm8ubi68Cd74tsWgHS3dezHFzs1Gduaz3jm0h4O8R1goISfl D7knYaR8n8OFgO9wi6MjpfLhEcQLyOAs1W6OiwUNlH2JbiOrHDh0fwXzskygpx30hrLq fU4w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.17.149 with SMTP id 21mr10146763lfr.38.1444757935235; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <730886980.3160784.1444751121730.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <730886980.3160784.1444751121730.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:38:55 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: nhkBgsPGa1eJBNJtkUoaTMfFL-g Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: bill.jouris@insidethestack.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114035aa842a4c0521ffeb08 Archived-At: Cc: gaia Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:39:00 -0000 --001a114035aa842a4c0521ffeb08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It is meant to be public :). I will try and sort out the wiki for all of you to start editing - its a good exercise for GAIA. Regards On 13 October 2015 at 16:45, wrote: > Ah, good point. The diplomatic aspects had not occurred to me. I guess I > was imagining it as a strictly internal (but to whom?) database. > > Bill > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Arjuna Sathiaseelan > *To:* bill.jouris@insidethestack.com > *Cc:* gaia ; Nalini Elkins < > nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> > *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2015 11:14 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream > > I like Nalini's characterisation since it falls into the categories of > tech, economics, social, regulation/political and capacity building. > Diving a bit deeper (for e.g. corruption) may not be so diplomatic? :) > Regards > On 12 Oct 2015 15:55, wrote: > > > > I think those "Political issues" listed ought to be split up. Into > private and governmental, if you will. > - Political issues: bribery required, other corruption (e.g. governmental > theft), government resistance, nationalism, etc. > - "Other (privagte)" [need a better name]: theft (private, as opposed to > governmental), staff move to other jobs as soon as they are trained, etc. > > Bill Jouris > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" < > nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> > *To:* Stephen Farrell ; "El Khatib, Yehia > (elkhatib)" > *Cc:* gaia ; Arjuna Sathiaseelan < > arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.uk>; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" < > bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; Henning Schulzrinne > > *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2015 7:36 AM > *Subject:* Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible dream > > >So what we'd want is a big table with maybe the following for each entry: > > >- name of the original effort > >- dates active > >- overview of approach (1-2 paras) > >- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras) > >- contact who added this info > >- contact for original effort > >- date this entry last updated > >- references > > One thing that we have been doing is to capture some reasons why projects > fail. We may want to develop codes to indicate failure type: > > Failure Reasons > --------------------- > - Lack of sensitivity to culture > - Unsustainable project (lack of training, etc. ) > - Cost > - Lack of long term commitment or will > - Unintended consequences > - "Political" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc) > - Obsoleted by better technology > > Proposing this as a strawman. Welcome comments on better categorization, > if people find this useful. > > Another thing I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate > the actual project and actual reason for failure. This may be sensitive. > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --001a114035aa842a4c0521ffeb08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is meant to be public :).

I will try= and sort out the wiki for all of you to start editing - its a good exercis= e for GAIA.

Regards

On 13 October 2015 at 16:45, <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> wrote:
<= div>Ah, good point.=C2=A0 The diplomatic aspects had not occurred to = me.=C2=A0 I guess I was imagining it as a strictly internal (but to whom?) = database.

Bill


From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseel= an@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To:<= /b> bil= l.jouris@insidethestack.com
Cc:= gaia <gai= a@irtf.org>; Nalini Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> <= br> Sent: Monday, October 12= , 2015 11:14 PM

Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible d= ream

I like Nalini's characterisation since it falls int= o the categories of tech, economics, social, regulation/political and capac= ity building.
Diving a bit deeper (for e.g. corruption) may not be so di= plomatic? :)
Regards
On 12 Oct 2015 15:55, <bill.jouris@inside= thestack.com> wrote:


<= div>
<= span>I think those "Political issues" listed ought to be split up= .=C2=A0 Into private and governmental, if you will.
- Political issues: bribery required, other corruption = (e.g. governmental theft), government resistance, nationalism, etc.<= /div>
- "Other (privagte)" [need a better name]: theft = (private, as opposed to governmental), staff move to other jobs as soon as = they are trained, etc.

Bill = Jouris


Fr= om: "nalini.elkins@insidethestac= k.com" <nalini.elkins@insidethestack= .com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; "El Khatib, Yehia (elkhatib)" <y.= elkhatib@lancaster.ac.uk>
Cc: gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; Arjuna = Sathiaseelan <arjuna.sathiaseelan@cl.cam.ac.u= k>; "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>= ; Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Sent: Monday, O= ctober 12, 2015 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [gaia] Internet for all remains an impossible d= ream

>So what we'd want is a big tab= le with maybe the following for=C2=A0each entry:

>- name of the original effort
>- dates = active
>- overview of approach (1-2 paras)
>- status and/or reasons for closure/ending/failure (1-2 paras)>- contact who added this info
>- = contact for original effort
>- date this entry last up= dated
>- references

One thing that we have been doing is to capture so= me reasons why projects fail.=C2=A0 We may want to develop codes to indicat= e failure type:

Failure Reasons
---------------------
- Lack of sensitivity to culture
- Unsustainable project (lack of training, etc. )
-=C2=A0<= span style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light,'Helvetica Neue Light'= ;,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,'Lucida Grande',sans-ser= if;font-size:16px">Cost
- Lack of long term commitment or will<= br clear=3D"none">
- Unintended consequences
- "Politica= l" issues (bribery required, in-fighting, theft, etc)
- Obso= leted by better technology

Proposin= g this as a strawman.=C2=A0 Welcome comments on better categorization, if p= eople find this useful.

Another thi= ng I wonder about is that some people may not want to indicate the actual p= roject and actual reason for failure. =C2=A0 This may be sensitive.

Thanks,

Na= lini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Product= s, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
= =C2=A0
=



--
--001a114035aa842a4c0521ffeb08-- From nobody Thu Oct 15 14:53:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96CD1A6FE1 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id llpcUtDU5gdE for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 183651A6FE5 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbaikies-MacBook-Air.local ([199.241.202.170]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mgdfd-1aArVx3dBf-00O8uZ for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:52:55 +0200 To: "gaia@irtf.org" From: Bruce Baikie Message-ID: <56202035.4020201@green-wifi.org> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:52:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Sw8DeG9MYE+8L4puY50H+qQavc1+PZbaYOqhdClLfewKOxoVAQL a/0VVQnRtD5HLLP/MKIxSy5xll0ZPZdfaH5Hv8eRhwcNlBu2k33EtWvTqcMb2junqR6jful s2Ik3JpZMPdQ2qL2oYvC3P+rhm63yaLZv9Y+vCdSIKVXBEPVRgJi4OivuiOvtb101Wsc5IL 3nAnmZnl2Vth3UARIlesw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:84mmQ5KdPe8=:xwKx80WRJ3z0RVejeFrt00 OKxFYExjfJ7D2EgLfkWZyd5815/G5PfMQAIWL1q6ESy7FHbcX62kou0I7boS53+v8+BGwdTEg Zan6lp2cdhUCvxsZ71GqbUny2jg87in8H2S5WHGhlVcMKf5d41waoHaXRZTWSroAzgqZXyC4n p6QBKYXbcIXmYeei3G4nVv5AJkEufag2Y1H0hPQ6zpD9w/7VYA+j3WTMm/SGg7e+6BXeaobx+ nu745sY4fRfO+cHLfDT9+WqVHDQ6qqnjK91C6gqaIig6fVwVZS1HiOu4sBLTNun+PbtT8n3wY RALw8Z7S8++GQ0A6N1iDUuyAQoXxSARN6/NrOJqIVHloiWo8d6vPAIykP0JXfwf6+K+wVl/zO UUvpj1OSgyoowBc1rznKpAHkZECbwJ7+eMHtH8j8+eZ5PQYVhO/FJqgop6n7TnOCi8gMhW776 4Y+PQhcwRNwq0oUO1ky2O0KjFXDy6PDr3EkX3ufA4Kvk4SNSBaNTjcxhpRHpb6GFnMyKT100x 0zlucZx2x/Hb7d7Ktx6ReMgbA/6qYqwIA4qzin22W4JGfB3lixK8xKI0p368VTegxB8VdeUur ERGcYFs9dY2Hix0OZKW06xFhxoLH3oEegbg7zhycx25Qn5//YBhO9fUZm4Jo1RcAUaooeAEar Hoxy36UVsFm3u2abGbROIeceYC5GzkNykbN9Ys9EHUg6uBMZ0Rw3ZqivCloiKFTHmzmotGWd7 zRl7DtxFHsaR/zhC Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] PTC Projects Request for Proposals: Closes in a Week! ICT projects in Pacific Rim X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:52:59 -0000 PTC Projects Request for Proposals: Closes in a Week! Deadline: 23 October 2015 The PTC Projects initiative provides both members and non-members the opportunity to develop and implement projects that promote the use of Information and Communications Technology (ICT) to improve the quality of life in the Pacific Hemisphere. Projects should involve the introduction and application of new methods, processes, and/or technology solutions to address a defined problem. Collaborative projects designed to solve practical problems are particularly encouraged. Proposals will be evaluated according to the following criteria: · Feasibility of solutions and plan for execution · Cost-benefit · Sustainability and scalability · Innovativeness · Social value · Clear deliverable/applicable results from the completed project · Clear budget and confirmation of funding · Strengthen the PTC brand and visibility for the organization · Acceptance of the terms of the PTC Grant Agreement For complete details, please view the RFP. Please note the proposal submission deadline is 23 October 2015. Proposals will only be accepted via the online proposal submission system. To submit a proposal or learn more about PTC and the PTC Projects initiative, please visit ptc.org. For additional questions, please email projects@ptc.org. From nobody Fri Oct 16 21:36:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5981B352F for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f9Dkkj-61E9L for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89E0E1B3530 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbcao8 with SMTP id ao8so111959690lbc.3 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Mm692MBwQFagcyEHzZQXSsKlkNAS6ThG+L0huqt+otg=; b=03OyqjXyqoR33EAdeTMccyr2KfctG0a8fQ6RQRHMLhgrCdBBrEZ0RDAafBQP+04nuS o0xKP4D7NsM6NcRhrehvTxKr1Oiz2SGzTnZ5Y6w+zCYQZLjz4K2Wq02akrbbJ7RUMBWi 6vxsj6Nbkece9569Dwv4qUFP8Q6iiO500+0KHwJ96R8mgeZq3eqnzNUDxb3gpF/9Ad/5 Cx4wWojoVoRwPW86dJNewe5lyZIy8puQg8/nwb9ZeqFP3+9/0HBAS6FM2fAOtBufeJqV A0/V6EDRaKhBaSiMgsmMtdaeXmG6mnwVbuhsSanHWKjao3MxT1XgTgzljImkGLX54+AS 8iaw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.135.136 with SMTP id ps8mr9690616lbb.38.1445056589173; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.176.33 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 05:36:29 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aHK4-eeLq2aYMpUx3eiMNMOKG0g Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: gaia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01160712ad9aae052245745a Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] GAIA workshop@DEV is now live X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 04:36:33 -0000 --089e01160712ad9aae052245745a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 here: http://acmdev.org/gaia.php -- Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --089e01160712ad9aae052245745a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --089e01160712ad9aae052245745a-- From nobody Sun Oct 18 08:53:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E3A1A8BB7 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 08:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLZ06YRhVpfl for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 08:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roura.ac.upc.es (roura.ac.upc.edu [147.83.33.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE7F1A8BB4 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 08:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.0.6] (gw-3-vpn-i.ac.upc.es [147.83.35.77]) by roura.ac.upc.es (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9IE3log009697 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:03:47 +0200 From: Leandro Navarro Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3D49A3B4-7A19-4E27-83C6-CFBCEE8C5368" Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:52:56 +0200 To: gaia@irtf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 \(3096.4\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.4) Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] Workshop, London Nov 30, diverse participants on ... Socio-economics in delivering the GAIA vision (lessons, obstacles, models) X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:53:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3D49A3B4-7A19-4E27-83C6-CFBCEE8C5368 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi all, are you coming to the next GAIA workshop? :-) In the workshop (16-17:30h, just before the "The Great British Pub = Experience") we=E2=80=99ll have a =E2=80=9Cworld-cafe=E2=80=9D style = discussion on: Socio-economics in delivering the =E2=80=9CGlobal = Internet Access for All=E2=80=9D (GAIA) vision (lessons, obstacles, = models). There will be reports and discussion about several experiences of = developing connectivity, not always of broadband capacity, with diverse = models, technologies, about all over the world, ...=20 In order to bring diverse views (we=E2=80=99ve already several = participants from community-driven initiatives)=E2=80=A6=20 Do you have any contact about other models of delivering the GAIA = vision?=20 E.g. commercial regional or national operators, non-profit or = for-profit, including global ones like FB, Google Fibre, etc. Given the location (London), it would be great to meet, learn and = discuss with initiatives nearby, such as in the UK, Europe and bring = diverse views.=20 The ultimate goal is start producing a IRTF/IETF RFC working document on = the topic of this session.=20 By the way we can include the recent discussion about "Internet = deployments that failed=E2=80=9D. Feel free to pass this to anyone else that could report and participate = in the discussion. All the best,=20 -- Leandro Navarro http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro http://dsg.ac.upc.edu --Apple-Mail=_3D49A3B4-7A19-4E27-83C6-CFBCEE8C5368 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi all, are you coming to the next GAIA = workshop? :-)

In= the workshop (16-17:30h, just before the "The Great British Pub = Experience") we=E2=80=99ll have a =E2=80=9Cworld-cafe=E2=80=9D style = discussion on:   Socio-economics in delivering the =E2=80=9CGlobal = Internet Access for All=E2=80=9D (GAIA) vision (lessons, obstacles, = models).
There will be reports and discussion about = several experiences of developing connectivity, not always of broadband = capacity, with diverse models, technologies, about all over the world, = ... 

In = order to bring diverse views (we=E2=80=99ve already several participants = from community-driven initiatives)=E2=80=A6 
Do = you have any contact about other models of delivering the GAIA = vision? 
E.g. commercial regional or national = operators, non-profit or for-profit, including global ones like FB, = Google Fibre, etc.

Given the location (London), it would be great to meet, learn = and discuss with initiatives nearby, such as in the UK, Europe and bring = diverse views. 

The ultimate goal is start producing a IRTF/IETF RFC working = document on the topic of this session. 
By the = way we can include the recent discussion about "Internet deployments that failed=E2=80=9D.

Feel free to pass = this to anyone else that could report and participate in the = discussion.

All = the best, 
--
Leandro Navarro
http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro =  http://dsg.ac.upc.edu

= --Apple-Mail=_3D49A3B4-7A19-4E27-83C6-CFBCEE8C5368-- From nobody Fri Oct 23 01:30:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822B81A1B49 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:30:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJPyQrerC28T for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huecha.unizar.es (huecha.unizar.es [155.210.1.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E72E1B3318 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by huecha.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id t9N8U02b013636; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:30:00 +0200 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'Marco Zennaro'" , References: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> In-Reply-To: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:30:03 +0200 Message-ID: <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0102_01D10D7D.C7BD7390" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQGO/R1dBRdKLvMMs4HRgYUKUl7ey5783jGw Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Archived-At: Subject: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:30:10 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01D10D7D.C7BD7390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the "Alternative networks" draft (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deploym ents/ ), this question arose: > John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric delivery. > > Jose: We could add a section. My question: do you think we should consider this as an "alternative network"? I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional services as the one linked in Marco's e-mail. Thanks in advance, Jose De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco Zennaro Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 Para: gaia@irtf.org Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-impo rtant-content-from-space-free/ Best, Marco Marco Zennaro, PhD Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics Strada Costiera 11 34014 Trieste Italy Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 Web: http://wireless.ictp.it ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01D10D7D.C7BD7390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

In the GAIA meeting in = Prague, in the discussion of the “Alternative networks” = draft (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternat= ive-network-deployments/ ), this question = arose:

 

> John = ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric = delivery.

> =

> Jose: We could add a = section.

 

My question: do you = think we should consider this as an “alternative = network”?

 

I am talking about = services using a satellite to provide free access to some useful = websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, = unidirectional services as the one linked in Marco’s = e-mail.

 

Thanks in = advance,

 

Jose<= /p>

 

De: gaia = [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco = Zennaro
Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 = 14:30
Para: gaia@irtf.org
Asunto: [gaia] Cheap = Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International = News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology = Review

 

http://www.technologyreview.co= m/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-fr= ee/

Best,

Marco

 

 

 

Marco Zennaro, PhD
Telecommunications / ICT = for Development Laboratory
the Abdus Salam = International Centre for Theoretical Physics
Strada Costiera = 11
34014 Trieste
Italy

 

Telephone:    +39 040 = 2240 406
Web:        =    http://wireless.ictp.it

 

------=_NextPart_000_0102_01D10D7D.C7BD7390-- From nobody Fri Oct 23 01:45:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816111B333E for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90qO5XQ72Gkl for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B22A1B333A for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (galactica.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.32]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 433A01B001B0; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:52:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from 212.159.18.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:45:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> References: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:45:39 +0100 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: "Jose Saldana" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Archived-At: Cc: gaia@irtf.org, 'Marco Zennaro' Subject: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:45:44 -0000 If people think we need to do this - I can help review text on satellite options... Gorry > Hi all, > > In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the "Alternative > networks" draft > (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deploym > ents/ ), this question arose: > >> John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric > delivery. >> >> Jose: We could add a section. > > My question: do you think we should consider this as an "alternative > network"? > > I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to > some > useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional services as > the one linked in Marco's e-mail. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jose > > De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco Zennaro > Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 > Para: gaia@irtf.org > Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access > Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology > Review > > http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-impo > rtant-content-from-space-free/ > > Best, > Marco > > > > Marco Zennaro, PhD > Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory > the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics > Strada Costiera 11 > 34014 Trieste > Italy > > Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 > Web: http://wireless.ictp.it > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > From nobody Fri Oct 23 02:16:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348551B338F for ; 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charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all I first thought about this is 'yes, of course, Outernet is proposing something completely heterodox that should be included in our alternative networks draft'. But then, the Loon project as well? Any other projects based on HAPS? On satellite communications? We are proposing a draft on 'alternative networks'. Hence, whatever we try to classify in our taxonomy must be 'alternative' (a relative term that identifies something that solves a problem in a radically different way from common ones) and 'network' (don't need to define that :-) ) Let's see what happens if we try to classify Outernet with our current taxonomy. - Commercial model / promoter - It is a private company but, for-profit? anyone in the list knows more? - Goals and motivation - ok, examining this criteria we see that outernet is not a network. It USES existing satellite infrastructures in a completely innovative way. Do your agree with me? The contribution in outernet is not in the deployment of networks, but in the creation of a new paradigm that finds value in simplex data transmission. They also create appropriate terminals, but I would put the accent in the paradigm. If we still want to make room to Outernet in the document, then, we should include a new option here: 'extending access to information to underserved areas (users and communities)' - Admin model: centralized - Technology employed: satellite solutions. But then it is worth introduce more details in the document and make the difference between duplex satellite solutions and simplex satellite solutions. - Typical scenarios: rural in developing countries Hence, with a couple of new options in the current taxonomy, we could introduce in section 2 a subsection: 'satellite information broadcast services', being Outernet the very first case. But I return to my argument above: it is not a network, but a very interesting and innovative way to use existing infrastructures. On the other hand, the Loon project or other satellite projects being prepared by Google and other actors might be considered in the future. Should we make the place for them in the taxonomy? Best Javier El 23/10/15 a las 10:30, Jose Saldana escribi: > > Hi all, > > In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the Alternative > networks draft > (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments/ > ), this question arose: > > >John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric > delivery. > > > > > > Jose: We could add a section. > > My question: do you think we should consider this as an alternative > network? > > I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access > to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional > services as the one linked in Marcos e-mail. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jose > > *De:*gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] *En nombre de *Marco Zennaro > *Enviado el:* viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 > *Para:* gaia@irtf.org > *Asunto:* [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access > Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT > Technology Review > > http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/ > > > Best, > > Marco > > Marco Zennaro, PhD > Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory > the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics > Strada Costiera 11 > 34014 Trieste > Italy > > Telephone:+39 040 2240 406 > Web:http://wireless.ictp.it > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia -- --------------------------------------------------- Fco. Javier Sim Reigadas Subdirector de Ord. Docente ETS de Ingeniera de Telecomunicacin D-204, Departamental III Camino Del Molino, s/n - 28943 Fuenlabrada (Madrid) Tel: 914888428, Fax: 914887500 Web personal: http://www.tsc.urjc.es/~javier.simo --------------090806090802090500010604 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all

I first thought about this is 'yes, of course, Outernet is proposing something completely heterodox that should be included in our alternative networks draft'. But then, the Loon project as well? Any other projects based on HAPS? On satellite communications?

We are proposing a draft on 'alternative networks'. Hence, whatever we try to classify in our taxonomy must be 'alternative' (a relative term that identifies something that solves a problem in a radically different way from common ones) and 'network' (don't need to define that :-) )

Let's see what happens if we try to classify Outernet with our current taxonomy.

- Commercial model / promoter - It is a private company but, for-profit? anyone in the list knows more?
- Goals and motivation - ok, examining this criteria we see that outernet is not a network. It USES existing satellite infrastructures in a completely innovative way. Do your agree with me? The contribution in outernet is not in the deployment of networks, but in the creation of a new paradigm that finds value in simplex data transmission. They also create appropriate terminals, but I would put the accent in the paradigm. If we still want to make room to Outernet in the document, then, we should include a new option here: 'extending access to information to underserved areas (users and communities)'
- Admin model: centralized
- Technology employed: satellite solutions. But then it is worth introduce more details in the document and make the difference between duplex satellite solutions and simplex satellite solutions.
- Typical scenarios: rural in developing countries

Hence, with a couple of new options in the current taxonomy, we could introduce in section 2 a subsection: 'satellite information broadcast services', being Outernet the very first case. But I return to my argument above: it is not a network, but a very interesting and innovative way to use existing infrastructures. On the other hand, the Loon project or other satellite projects being prepared by Google and other actors might be considered in the future. Should we make the place for them in the taxonomy?

Best

Javier

El 23/10/15 a las 10:30, Jose Saldana escribi:

Hi all,

In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the Alternative networks draft (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments/ ), this question arose:

> John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric delivery.

>

> Jose: We could add a section.

My question: do you think we should consider this as an alternative network?

I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional services as the one linked in Marcos e-mail.

Thanks in advance,

Jose

De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco Zennaro
Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30
Para: gaia@irtf.org
Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/

Best,

Marco

Marco Zennaro, PhD
Telecommunications / ICT forDevelopment Laboratory
the Abdus Salam InternationalCentre for Theoretical Physics
Strada Costiera 11
34014 Trieste
Italy

Telephone: +39 040 2240406
Web: http://wireless.ictp.it



_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

-- 

---------------------------------------------------
Fco. Javier Sim Reigadas <javier.simo@urjc.es>
Subdirector de Ord. Docente
ETS de Ingeniera de Telecomunicacin
D-204, Departamental III
Camino Del Molino, s/n - 28943 Fuenlabrada (Madrid)
Tel: 914888428, Fax: 914887500
Web personal: http://www.tsc.urjc.es/~javier.simo
--------------090806090802090500010604-- From nobody Fri Oct 23 02:27:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695921B33D1 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:27:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zhFGroF0hkdK for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 254BA1B33CF for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lfbn126 with SMTP id n126so42381019lfb.2 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:27:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=lNmltYPETBjmV++7dF50B9SuFpGA5Jw9bxIb/fFsGgo=; b=HLQmlAXeL4M2Gin0naGhPYGb5cfoeeiu2eLH6fz4Ds0ODwMD/tWmuc58WO/ApyITCL JzPFbQI0pO+yMH9LhjJTEYlNsy78ObFAkaUi4GuWVvW+8zqymdqYaoZqVdpYDf5Z0a0Q ACNNLp0IPjkb+qwna+UGuayH8kEOQzD8HVv3WA7pXqGVWAY7vprWr6ftvD6CD5FRvJop H3kOJb7SFWyVa6llYOMKCe+jXBBA9ROVR1LTIZPWEy2jHzJfrsCinGaIYU1QALhLBS86 3AqNUq/fUOb2RVn9WHRxYbKoO2kxf4p3Go8BDMoO80Y3eXO6BsFCWcHkZOOeXNXxlMIc 90vg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.21.26 with SMTP id l26mr7090662lfi.122.1445592429274; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Sender: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.172.104 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:27:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> References: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:27:09 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6KJr13WRELMmNA7-jtDc1HXy_ck Message-ID: From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan To: Jose Saldana Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fbcba3cae030522c237a4 Archived-At: Cc: gaia , Marco Zennaro Subject: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:27:13 -0000 --001a113fbcba3cae030522c237a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable so this could be -- 1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via satellite -- but the satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the satellite network comes under alternative networks here. 2/There could be an option where the satellite segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts - like the models we are proposing in the RIFE project (http://rife-project.eu/) -- then the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative networks.. 3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone flying around as alternative networks until and unless they are governed by the community :) arjuna On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana wrote: > Hi all, > > > > In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the =E2=80=9CAlternat= ive > networks=E2=80=9D draft ( > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deplo= yments/ > ), this question arose: > > > > > John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric > delivery. > > > > > > Jose: We could add a section. > > > > My question: do you think we should consider this as an =E2=80=9Calternat= ive > network=E2=80=9D? > > > > I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to > some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional > services as the one linked in Marco=E2=80=99s e-mail. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Jose > > > > *De:* gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] *En nombre de *Marco Zennaro > *Enviado el:* viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 > *Para:* gaia@irtf.org > *Asunto:* [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access > Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology > Review > > > > > http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-i= mportant-content-from-space-free/ > > Best, > > Marco > > > > > > > > Marco Zennaro, PhD > Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory > the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics > Strada Costiera 11 > 34014 Trieste > Italy > > > > Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 > Web: http://wireless.ictp.it > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > --=20 Arjuna Sathiaseelan Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d --001a113fbcba3cae030522c237a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
so this could be --

1/CNs or alternativ= e networks backhauling via satellite -- but the satelliite network is gover= ned by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the satellite network comes under alterna= tive networks here.

2/There could be an option whe= re the satellite segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the communit= y for e.g. local govts - like the models we are proposing in the RIFE proje= ct (http://rife-project.eu/) -- the= n the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative networks..

3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone fly= ing around as alternative networks until and unless they are governed by th= e community :)

arjuna

On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose = Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

In the GAIA meeting in Prague, i= n the discussion of the =E2=80=9CAlternative networks=E2=80=9D draft (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-g= aia-alternative-network-deployments/ ), this question arose:<= /u>

=C2= =A0

> John ?: Deli= very by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric delivery.<= /u>

>

> Jose: We could add a section.

=C2=A0

My question: do = you think we should consider this as an =E2=80=9Calternative network=E2=80= =9D?

=C2=A0

I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free a= ccess to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, = unidirectional services as the one linked in Marco=E2=80=99s e-mail.=

=C2=A0

Thanks in advance,

=C2=A0

= Jose

=C2=A0

De: gaia [ma= ilto:gaia-bounce= s@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco Zennaro
Enviado el: vie= rnes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30
Para: gaia@irtf.org
Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Sat= ellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, = and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review

=C2=A0

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-be= ams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/

Best,

Marco

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Marco Zennar= o, PhD
Telecommunications / ICT for=C2=A0Development Laboratory
the A= bdus Salam International=C2=A0Centre for Theoretical Physics
Strada Cost= iera 11
34014 Trieste
Italy

=C2=A0

Telephone:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +39 040 2240=C2=A0406
Web:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://wireless.ictp.it

= =C2=A0


___________= ____________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia




--
--001a113fbcba3cae030522c237a4-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 09:33:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6C81A872A for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45VsZxL16cTq for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isuela.unizar.es (isuela.unizar.es [155.210.1.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A62921A8728 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usuarioPC (gtc1pc12.cps.unizar.es [155.210.158.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by isuela.unizar.es (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id t9UGWrV7008857; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:32:53 +0100 From: "Jose Saldana" To: "'Arjuna Sathiaseelan'" References: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:33:03 +0100 Message-ID: <000201d11330$a6bfa330$f43ee990$@unizar.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01D11339.0886A340" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQGO/R1dBRdKLvMMs4HRgYUKUl7eywHzyc7kAYoJrHue7HXe0A== Content-Language: es X-Mail-Scanned: Criba 2.0 + Clamd & Bogofilter Archived-At: Cc: 'gaia' , 'Marco Zennaro' Subject: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:33:18 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01D11339.0886A340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Arjuna and all, =20 The current definition of =E2=80=9CTraditional networks=E2=80=9D in the = draft is = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployme= nts-01#section-1.1): =20 In this document we will use the term "traditional networks" to denote those sharing these characteristics: =20 - Regarding scale, they are usually large networks spanning entire regions. =20 - Top-down control of the network and centralized approaches are used. =20 - They require a substantial investment in infrastructure. =20 - Users in traditional networks tend to be passive consumers, as opposed to active stakeholders, in the network design, deployment, operation and maintenance. =20 So clearly an =E2=80=9CAlternative network=E2=80=9D has to be governed = by the community, it may be small scale, and it may not require a = substantial investment.=20 =20 So I agree with Arjuna: =E2=80=9Cthe satellite segments could be run by = VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts=E2=80=9D may be = considered =E2=80=9Calternative networks=E2=80=9D. =20 Do we have real examples of this? I mean, something currently running. =20 Where should we place them? Perhaps they are not another type of = network, but just another technology to be used in alternative networks. = I mean, we should not add a new kind of network, but we could add a new = technology in section 4 = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployme= nts-01#section-4) =20 What do you think? =20 Thanks, =20 Jose =20 De: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com [mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com] = En nombre de Arjuna Sathiaseelan Enviado el: viernes, 23 de octubre de 2015 11:27 Para: Jose Saldana CC: Marco Zennaro ; gaia Asunto: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access = Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology = Review =20 so this could be -- =20 1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via satellite -- but the = satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the = satellite network comes under alternative networks here. =20 2/There could be an option where the satellite segments could be run by = VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts - like the = models we are proposing in the RIFE project (http://rife-project.eu/) -- = then the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative networks.. =20 3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone flying around as = alternative networks until and unless they are governed by the community = :) =20 arjuna =20 On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana > wrote: Hi all, =20 In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the = =E2=80=9CAlternative networks=E2=80=9D draft = (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-depl= oyments/ ), this question arose: =20 > John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric = delivery. >=20 > Jose: We could add a section. =20 My question: do you think we should consider this as an = =E2=80=9Calternative network=E2=80=9D? =20 I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to = some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional = services as the one linked in Marco=E2=80=99s e-mail. =20 Thanks in advance, =20 Jose =20 De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org ] = En nombre de Marco Zennaro Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 Para: gaia@irtf.org =20 Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access = Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology = Review =20 http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-i= mportant-content-from-space-free/=20 Best, Marco =20 =20 =20 Marco Zennaro, PhD Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics Strada Costiera 11 34014 Trieste Italy =20 Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 Web: http://wireless.ictp.it =20 _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org =20 https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia =20 --=20 Arjuna Sathiaseelan=20 Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/=20 N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01D11339.0886A340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Arjuna and = all,

 

The current definition = of =E2=80=9CTraditional networks=E2=80=9D in the draft is (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-al= ternative-network-deployments-01#section-1.1):

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 In this document we will = use the term "traditional networks" to

=C2=A0=C2=A0 denote those sharing these = characteristics:

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'page-break-before:always;tab-stops:45.8pt = 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt = 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Regarding scale, they = are usually large networks spanning entire

=C2=A0=C2=A0 regions.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'page-break-before:always;tab-stops:45.8pt = 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt = 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Top-down control of the = network and centralized approaches are

=C2=A0=C2=A0 used.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'page-break-before:always;tab-stops:45.8pt = 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt = 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - They require a = substantial investment in infrastructure.

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'page-break-before:always;tab-stops:45.8pt = 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt = 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Users in traditional = networks tend to be passive consumers, as

=C2=A0=C2=A0 opposed to active stakeholders, in the network = design, deployment,

=C2=A0=C2=A0 operation and maintenance.

 

So clearly an = =E2=80=9CAlternative network=E2=80=9D has to be governed by the = community, it may be small scale, and it may not require a substantial = investment.

 

So I agree with = Arjuna: =E2=80=9Cthe satellite segments could be run by = VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts=E2=80=9D may be considered = =E2=80=9Calternative networks=E2=80=9D.

 

Do we have real = examples of this? I mean, something currently = running.

 

Where should we place = them? Perhaps they are not another type of network, but just another = technology to be used in alternative networks. I mean, we should not add = a new kind of network, but we could add a new technology in section 4 = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alte= rnative-network-deployments-01#section-4)

 

What do you = think?

 

Thanks,

 

Jose<= /p>

 

De: = arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com [mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com] = En nombre de Arjuna Sathiaseelan
Enviado el: viernes, 23 de octubre = de 2015 11:27
Para: Jose Saldana = <jsaldana@unizar.es>
CC: Marco Zennaro = <mzennaro@ictp.it>; gaia <gaia@irtf.org>
Asunto: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way = to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT = Technology Review

 

so this could be = --

 

1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via = satellite -- but the satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I = dont think the satellite network comes under alternative networks = here.

 

2/There could be an option where the satellite = segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. = local govts - like the models we are proposing in the RIFE project (http://rife-project.eu/) -- then = the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative = networks..

 

3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some = drone flying around as alternative networks until and unless they are = governed by the community :)

 

arjuna

 

On 23 = October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es> = wrote:

H= i all,

&= nbsp;

In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion = of the =E2=80=9CAlternative networks=E2=80=9D draft (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alterna= tive-network-deployments/ ), this question = arose:

 

> John ?: Delivery by satellite is = also being considered. Asymmetric = delivery.

>

> Jose: We could add a = section.

 

My question: do you think we should consider this = as an =E2=80=9Calternative network=E2=80=9D?

 

I am talking about services using a satellite to = provide free access to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I = mean, unidirectional services as the one linked in Marco=E2=80=99s = e-mail.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Jose

 

De: gaia = [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco = Zennaro
Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 = 14:30
Para: gaia@irtf.org
Asunto: [gaia] Cheap = Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International = News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology = Review

 <= /o:p>

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-bea= ms-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/ =

Best,

Marco

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Marco Zennaro, PhD
Telecommunications / ICT = for Development Laboratory
the Abdus Salam = International Centre for Theoretical Physics
Strada Costiera = 11
34014 Trieste
Italy

 

Telephone:    +39 040 = 2240 406
Web:           http://wireless.ictp.it

=

 <= /o:p>


______________________________________= _________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



 

-- =

Arjuna Sathiaseelan =
Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/
N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d

<= /div>
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01D11339.0886A340-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 09:45:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAED1A87CC for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:44:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dX0lLKGx1MNL for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A99A21A87C7 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.133] ([108.221.17.118]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LnRaS-1aPaFY0W0U-00hcpJ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:43:31 +0100 To: Jose Saldana , 'Arjuna Sathiaseelan' References: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> <000201d11330$a6bfa330$f43ee990$@unizar.es> From: Bruce Baikie Message-ID: <56339E2E.3040401@green-wifi.org> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:43:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000201d11330$a6bfa330$f43ee990$@unizar.es> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060205090904070809080108" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:crF9qeVky5qpUekpD+HC6tfhsB1a7Xcyh34vmmlYJgBeS++qCpD 06Jbcmpvq+NrZTLs7vwNVOnuk8gsguSta0JPwTWPPXmcxJ0j+00jXLEZKbcMykyQE3nNNEp CXuj90fGAd+PyUB158S+/mPJi4BgDNMSg0cNuSvJCu3ctTYjZIfHBpUwv1C8W4h8rEwe2Xl ybUIx+LINwll4U9gx4Tzg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:01Mm6dDULkw=:tWR+rtIxWANxZL0Wnpzcc6 bftlYUldqiQT1QC3RxyuJKLc0Bxcdbfcaq9+Kqix0mkavlQBmvd4cni4SZZ85W/VrHchHl8bB 617cKg9Hw7MTl1NiCbuw30FrV5bunHcmvHTF8t3Iq2ZXeUFhLrU49dudjeRjJccN3cqsP9F2N wb0+QtwtNbPLcTHqFOHjDBUMsILa3Qa9notRTVc+wKlHi1xULBRVksiyCQffglbCn1x91c6+j OF7lPjxwZcoq5V52ZW04oAn0/NxilcRFkIGFMEopvJLeeMhF23RKG6GVIJHx7Yk5wNfrCn1JT eZHbeMqExePlNYHZZC0IYOj1ZEecxTxgNOb6jhovm9ceeyFe7z30V0L3mIO+5KTJR7bosMBPu wnxxnx3TNAszkEj8pqMojYpv7LjiII8AWPnUFdpq058BvT6GJtNbI8LkuQ75DDKDFI8n+/0gm 0tHhMM07lKY2WlCsW1aPvOxnL0hu5XIcNCva088l+2SmK33fFz1j35KaQJFLaYxaModGGNq2m nh/S0gi6BH6pK5xU3ocO91NDfzzG8LP12o/+SnSlSHUGOb83ZKCjWqSu4RysRV2RoMwuCz3K6 YUo9FedXY5lH9bWDSWayipJqfia8RQ+kghSoCdSe1T/Gjq68pAba0pLvC+e6dS3dEQCZlc4Gd KMwj73o3kW9dQcgxvF7ZQQR+7Wyxajf0f86Dkv1nV+cGi1mh9t0OqHmIdt1I6N3Qr0PQxiwT3 nusypbDbxKa0MJg+ Archived-At: Cc: 'gaia' , 'Marco Zennaro' Subject: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:44:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060205090904070809080108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Outernet experience from a Columbia University Grad student - undergrad in telecom engineering http://www.ictworks.org/2015/10/21/will-outernet-bring-connectivity-to-the-unconnected-parts-of-the-world/ > > Hi, Arjuna and all, > > The current definition of Traditional networks in the draft is > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-01#section-1.1): > > In this document we will use the term "traditional networks" to > > denote those sharing these characteristics: > > - Regarding scale, they are usually large networks spanning entire > > regions. > > - Top-down control of the network and centralized approaches are > > used. > > - They require a substantial investment in infrastructure. > > - Users in traditional networks tend to be passive consumers, as > > opposed to active stakeholders, in the network design, deployment, > > operationand maintenance. > > So clearly an Alternative network has to be governed by the > community, it may be small scale, and it may not require a substantial > investment. > > So I agree with Arjuna: the satellite segments could be run by VNOs > who are part of the community for e.g. local govts may be considered > alternative networks. > > Do we have real examples of this? I mean, something currently running. > > Where should we place them? Perhaps they are not another type of > network, but just another technology to be used in alternative > networks. I mean, we should not add a new kind of network, but we > could add a new technology in section 4 > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-01#section-4) > > What do you think? > > Thanks, > > Jose > > *De:*arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com > [mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com] *En**nombre de *Arjuna Sathiaseelan > *Enviado**el:* viernes, 23 de octubre de 2015 11:27 > *Para:* Jose Saldana > *CC:* Marco Zennaro ; gaia > *Asunto**:* Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to > Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT > Technology Review > > so this could be -- > > 1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via satellite -- but the > satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the > satellite network comes under alternative networks here. > > 2/There could be an option where the satellite segments could be run > by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts - like the > models we are proposing in the RIFE project (http://rife-project.eu/) > -- then the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative networks.. > > 3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone flying around > as alternative networks until and unless they are governed by the > community :) > > arjuna > > On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana > wrote: > > Hi all, > > In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the > Alternative networks draft > (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments/ > ), this question arose: > > > John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric delivery. > > > > > > Jose: We could add a section. > > My question: do you think we should consider this as an > alternative network? > > I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free > access to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, > unidirectional services as the one linked in Marcos e-mail. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jose > > *De:*gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org > ] *En nombre de *Marco Zennaro > *Enviado el:* viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 > *Para:* gaia@irtf.org > *Asunto:* [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to > Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | > MIT Technology Review > > http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/ > > > Best, > > Marco > > Marco Zennaro, PhD > Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory > the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics > Strada Costiera 11 > 34014 Trieste > Italy > > Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 > Web: http://wireless.ictp.it > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > -- > > Arjuna Sathiaseelan > Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ > > N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia --------------060205090904070809080108 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Outernet experience from a Columbia University Grad student - undergrad in telecom engineering

http://www.ictworks.org/2015/10/21/will-outernet-bring-connectivity-to-the-unconnected-parts-of-the-world/

Hi, Arjuna and all,

The current definition of Traditional networks in the draft is (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-01#section-1.1):

In this document we will use the term "traditional networks" to

denote those sharing these characteristics:

- Regarding scale, they are usually large networks spanning entire

regions.

- Top-down control of the network and centralized approaches are

used.

- They require a substantial investment in infrastructure.

- Users in traditional networks tend to be passive consumers, as

opposed to active stakeholders, in the network design, deployment,

operation and maintenance.

So clearly an Alternative network has to be governed by the community, it may be small scale, and it may not require a substantial investment.

So I agree with Arjuna: the satellite segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts may be considered alternative networks.

Do we have real examples of this? I mean, something currently running.

Where should we place them? Perhaps they are not another type of network, but just another technology to be used in alternative networks. I mean, we should not add a new kind of network, but we could add a new technology in section 4 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-01#section-4)

What do you think?

Thanks,

Jose

De: arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com [mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com] En nombre de Arjuna Sathiaseelan
Enviado el: viernes, 23 de octubre de 2015 11:27
Para: Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>
CC: Marco Zennaro <mzennaro@ictp.it>; gaia <gaia@irtf.org>
Asunto: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review

so this could be --

1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via satellite -- but the satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the satellite network comes under alternative networks here.

2/There could be an option where the satellite segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts - like the models we are proposing in the RIFE project (http://rife-project.eu/) -- then the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative networks..

3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone flying around as alternative networks until and unless they are governed by the community :)

arjuna

On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es> wrote:

Hi all,

In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the Alternative networks draft (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments/ ), this question arose:

> John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric delivery.

>

> Jose: We could add a section.

My question: do you think we should consider this as an alternative network?

I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional services as the one linked in Marcos e-mail.

Thanks in advance,

Jose

De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco Zennaro
Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30
Para: gaia@irtf.org
Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/

Best,

Marco

Marco Zennaro, PhD
Telecommunications / ICT forDevelopment Laboratory
the Abdus Salam InternationalCentre for Theoretical Physics
Strada Costiera 11
34014 Trieste
Italy

Telephone: +39 040 2240406
Web: http://wireless.ictp.it


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



--



_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

--------------060205090904070809080108-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 10:44:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542931B2DE2 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w_PBPuATfHIn for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22a.google.com (mail-ob0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EA951B2DE1 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbza9 with SMTP id za9so49798534obb.1 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=5kQPkiNNpH7k8syQySTIQTADBY0w1o7P3Czbp0bHXGc=; b=Nlk2fyoTD8xI6gn/T8fkmfZgxcMdH60STQZAqfSK6tJuhs0lvUBMN7hATkt8HOVwNj X7u23yt7ngWljsJ6BXTkrM2V9OCO6UPsVg9ZOmO10dIesdqzd3nMtkSOvi2qm4JTUdy7 yuz0psMt23XU202BJnvEVraTir3bbz5YvnIPpP7EmqWf7H94/Rq2bAWrYiJWKOQiJr9i ra9w3qz/JB6nbjN/ZeP4oPUMrskgxI8tMyvs0SNh9/Tzjn0e8s6slfSWEbw3+ObBJrHk kqHbgx5/lxXKMeV9fNiYmHWUmxoXEUi4ajywMhIxTjpBuOSzNf0+TU59J2jUGVyFODDq 7rhw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.118.162 with SMTP id kn2mr6555144oeb.80.1446227069789; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: stephen.song@gmail.com Received: by 10.202.181.67 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:44:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56339E2E.3040401@green-wifi.org> References: <71AD414B-7D96-4166-8E99-7BB14C5E5E6C@ictp.it> <010101d10d6d$04331cf0$0c9956d0$@unizar.es> <000201d11330$a6bfa330$f43ee990$@unizar.es> <56339E2E.3040401@green-wifi.org> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:44:29 -0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aZFiytGhGF84iSq64GyQN33m4vQ Message-ID: From: Steve Song To: gaia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b675b66c26ccf052355fa6f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:44:33 -0000 --047d7b675b66c26ccf052355fa6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for sharing this Bruce. Very informative. Regards... Steve On 30 October 2015 at 13:43, Bruce Baikie wrote: > Outernet experience from a Columbia University Grad student - undergrad i= n > telecom engineering > > > > http://www.ictworks.org/2015/10/21/will-outernet-bring-connectivity-to-th= e-unconnected-parts-of-the-world/ > > Hi, Arjuna and all, > > > > The current definition of =E2=80=9CTraditional networks=E2=80=9D in the d= raft is ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deploymen= ts-01#section-1.1 > ): > > > > In this document we will use the term "traditional networks" to > > denote those sharing these characteristics: > > > > - Regarding scale, they are usually large networks spanning entire > > regions. > > > > - Top-down control of the network and centralized approaches are > > used. > > > > - They require a substantial investment in infrastructure. > > > > - Users in traditional networks tend to be passive consumers, as > > opposed to active stakeholders, in the network design, deployment, > > operation and maintenance. > > > > So clearly an =E2=80=9CAlternative network=E2=80=9D has to be governed by= the community, > it may be small scale, and it may not require a substantial investment. > > > > So I agree with Arjuna: =E2=80=9Cthe satellite segments could be run by V= NOs who > are part of the community for e.g. local govts=E2=80=9D may be considered > =E2=80=9Calternative networks=E2=80=9D. > > > > Do we have real examples of this? I mean, something currently running. > > > > Where should we place them? Perhaps they are not another type of network, > but just another technology to be used in alternative networks. I mean, w= e > should not add a new kind of network, but we could add a new technology i= n > section 4 ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deploymen= ts-01#section-4 > ) > > > > What do you think? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jose > > > > *De:* arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com [mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com > ] *En** nombre de *Arjuna Sathiaseelan > *Enviado** el:* viernes, 23 de octubre de 2015 11:27 > *Para:* Jose Saldana > *CC:* Marco Zennaro ; gaia > > *Asunto**:* Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to > Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT > Technology Review > > > > so this could be -- > > > > 1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via satellite -- but the > satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the satellit= e > network comes under alternative networks here. > > > > 2/There could be an option where the satellite segments could be run by > VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts - like the models > we are proposing in the RIFE project ( > http://rife-project.eu/) -- then the satellite segments can be treated as > Alternative networks.. > > > > 3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone flying around as > alternative networks until and unless they are governed by the community = :) > > > > arjuna > > > > On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > In the GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the =E2=80=9CAlternat= ive > networks=E2=80=9D draft ( > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deplo= yments/ > ), this question arose: > > > > > John ?: Delivery by satellite is also being considered. Asymmetric > delivery. > > > > > > Jose: We could add a section. > > > > My question: do you think we should consider this as an =E2=80=9Calternat= ive > network=E2=80=9D? > > > > I am talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to > some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional > services as the one linked in Marco=E2=80=99s e-mail. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Jose > > > > *De:* gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] *En nombre de *Marco Zennaro > *Enviado el:* viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30 > *Para:* gaia@irtf.org > *Asunto:* [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access > Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology > Review > > > > > > http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/startup-beams-the-webs-most-i= mportant-content-from-space-free/ > > Best, > > Marco > > > > > > > > Marco Zennaro, PhD > Telecommunications / ICT for Development Laboratory > the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics > Strada Costiera 11 > 34014 Trieste > Italy > > > > Telephone: +39 040 2240 406 > Web: http://wireless.ictp.it > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > > -- > > Arjuna Sathiaseelan > Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ > N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing listgaia@irtf.orghttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > --=20 +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc.org --047d7b675b66c26ccf052355fa6f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for sharing this Bruce.=C2=A0 Very informative. =C2= =A0

Regards... Steve
On 30 October 2015 at 13:43, Bruce Baikie <= bruce@green-wifi.org> wrote:
Outernet experience from a Columbia University Grad student - undergrad in telecom engineering

http://www.ictwo= rks.org/2015/10/21/will-outernet-bring-connectivity-to-the-unconnected-part= s-of-the-world/
=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20

Hi, Arjuna and a= ll,

=C2=A0=

The current defi= nition of =E2=80=9CTraditional networks=E2=80=9D in the draft is (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-n= etwork-deployments-01#section-1.1):

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 In this document we will use the term "traditional networks&q= uot; to

=C2=A0=C2=A0 denote those sharing these characteristics:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Regarding scale, they are usually large networks spanning entire

=C2=A0=C2=A0 regions.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Top-down control of the network and centralized approaches are

=C2=A0=C2=A0 used.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 - They require a substantial investment in infrastructure.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Users in traditional networks tend to be passive consumers, as

=C2=A0=C2=A0 opposed to active stakeholders, in the network design, deployment,

=C2=A0=C2=A0 operation and = maintenance.

=C2=A0=

So clearly an = =E2=80=9CAlternative network=E2=80=9D has to be governed by the community, it may be small scale, and it may not require a substantial investment.

=C2=A0=

So I agree with = Arjuna: =E2=80=9Cthe satellite segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts=E2=80=9D may be considered =E2=80=9Calternative networks=E2=80=9D.<= u>

=C2=A0=

Do we have real = examples of this? I mean, something currently running.

=C2=A0=

Where should we = place them? Perhaps they are not another type of network, but just another technology to be used in alternative networks. I mean, we should not add a new kind of network, but we could add a new technology in section 4 (https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-01#sect= ion-4)

=C2=A0=

What do you thin= k?

=C2=A0=

Thanks,

=C2=A0=

Jose

=C2=A0=

De:= arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com [mailto:arjuna.sathiaseelan@gmail.com] En nombre de Arjuna Sathiaseelan
Enviado el: viernes, 23 de octubre de 2015 = 11:27
Para: Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>
CC: Marco Zennaro <mzennaro@ictp.it>; gaia= <ga= ia@irtf.org>
Asunto: Re: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review

=C2=A0<= /span>

so this = could be --

=C2=A0

1/CNs or alternative networks backhauling via satellite -- but the satelliite network is governed by the NO/VNO -- I dont think the satellite network comes under alternative networks here.

=C2=A0

2/There could be an option where the satellite segments could be run by VNOs who are part of the community for e.g. local govts - like the models we are proposing in the RIFE project (http://rife-project.eu/) -- then the satellite segments can be treated as Alternative networks..

=C2=A0

3/I wouldnt claim outernet or google loon or some drone flying around as alternative networks until and unless they are governed by the community :)

=C2=A0

arjuna

=C2=A0

On 23 October 2015 at 09:30, Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

In t= he GAIA meeting in Prague, in the discussion of the =E2=80=9CAlternative networks= =E2=80=9D draft (http://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments/ ), this question arose:

=C2= =A0

> John ?: Delivery by satell= ite is also being considered. Asymmetric delivery.

>

> Jose: We could add a secti= on.

=C2= =A0

My q= uestion: do you think we should consider this as an =E2=80=9Calternative network=E2= =80=9D?

=C2= =A0

I am= talking about services using a satellite to provide free access to some useful websites (e.g. wikipedia, news). I mean, unidirectional services as the one linked in Marco=E2=80=99s e-mail.

=C2= =A0

Than= ks in advance,

=C2= =A0

Jose=

=C2= =A0

De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Marco Zennaro
Enviado el: viernes, 15 de mayo de 2015 14:30
Para: gaia@irtf.org
Asunto: [gaia] Cheap Satellite Receiver Offers a Free Way to Access Wikipedia, International News, and Other Vital Websites | MIT Technology Review=

=C2=A0

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537411/star= tup-beams-the-webs-most-important-content-from-space-free/

Best,

Marco

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Marco Zennaro, PhD
Telecommunications / ICT for=C2=A0Development Laboratory
the Abdus Salam International=C2=A0Centre for Theoretical Physics
Strada Costiera 11
34014 Trieste
Italy

=C2=A0

Telephone:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +39 040 2240=C2=A0406
Web:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0http://wireless.ictp.it<= /span>

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@i= rtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



=C2=A0

--



_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
ht=
tps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia




--
--047d7b675b66c26ccf052355fa6f-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 14:12:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gaia@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891B41A03A3 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.422 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zm86ht_dntnc for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22d.google.com (mail-io0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A3371A039C for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iodd200 with SMTP id d200so92717708iod.0 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sarantaporo_gr.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+kxHshKC+/k1x+ed27wcu+TBzo1za5cxTfYu+NegfeI=; b=fxRqeNG/8fRGsekPwFPsdb0sRZqxF6ieU7vRA/NOydhcKEDYwt58Rq+NYR9d3wwQxP PVdPbpWBouHV3rLUwCOXnlqKh0iIIZ+6ebgx8NVdirZ51WcgKtD91+h/HRIhxBrla7II T+0L1rl4jdBaUJu6/rgUzeboEGU+hR6VyOtWfbC3Jy6GwtFCfDedkTcXNIxPL0B8wXSE 3RRpqC6bJFWqIvkoHzIQn8Uk2kNvrgunqcAgnV7fCNRmNFSaVd340LeHQC15WSg72RsF Wm3fwCG2duwvj4R0ikf2JL5gEtVgk07jRZ2gzyonG0za2nJmX699HUnCg/IUemArwXbO iGAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=+kxHshKC+/k1x+ed27wcu+TBzo1za5cxTfYu+NegfeI=; b=RpzN6usPIyHfU/Zebv7W3uz9KFO1d4lgJgDjhipmeqxqjgzvv7c3vj9EisHxejpeXQ 7Aqw2TL7CfKTgovbNr41Ns7oinnwKZtsl3x1Errip5VqBdiw9PWcvBOjZqdPckENaVRd OU41lF3PH6QBKJLhbg9YHCVgXPbns2dAZIQTeJD4NBWHzpYzYr9iHpLGkcKlqqFmZr3a gi8CXuWcwceOJltjbD/exwDyKXnVnvdk7AIjfsCKadpLZ+ggAkWPqVETbmPlCdrFkpO8 Ask6jfwr4I5YcQ31vLUOhrNxEbJXeE0XlVJNWfItyp4ZikOeSSwjijAkCOwMD1Udgcw1 bsiw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnZn5cM314nrs49DGuJt9KtFU1hVmDERsRBtSd1ivavOwZkDOE14LT4Ku7uYw6VljDAtheb MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.136.196 with SMTP id s65mr11848554ioi.135.1446239524463; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.130.87 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [5.172.204.130] Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 23:12:04 +0200 Message-ID: From: George Klissiaris To: gaia@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ec8941db681052358e1cb Archived-At: Subject: [gaia] Crowdfunding campaign for the production of a documentary about wireless mesh networks in Greece X-BeenThere: gaia@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:12:07 -0000 --001a113ec8941db681052358e1cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *=C2=ABBuilding Communities of Commons in Greece=C2=BBA documentary about "Sarantaporo.gr Wireless Community Network" in Greece* On October 16th 2015, the Personal Cinema group , in cooperation with Sarantaporo.gr Non Profit Organization , launched a crowdfunding campaign at goteo.org crowdfunding platform to gather resources for the production of a documentary titled *=C2=ABBuilding Communities of Commons in Greece - A documentary about mesh and community networks in Sarantaporo area in Greece=C2=BB*. The documentary concerns the area of Sarantaporo, a village in Elassona Municipality in central Greece, where four years ago a group of people initiated the set up of a wireless community network (Sarantaporo.gr Community Network), now available in Sarantaporo and 14 more neighbouring villages. This infrastructure is not on= ly about offering remote areas the opportunity of internet access, but it is also about creating a model for development, operation and expansion of community wireless networks to be replicated in other distant areas. Furthermore, it is about building communities aiming at local socioeconomic development and collaborative production of common goods (like common infrastructures). The resources raised by the campaign will allow, not only the completion of the documentary, but also its best possible utilization by organizing public projections and open discussions to communicate and support the project and to raise awareness about wireless community networks and the commons - production models based on the principle of peer production and social economy. You can see a promo trailer video of the documentary here and a promo video of the crowdfunding campaign here . (english subtitles are available) Your contribution both co-financing and spreading the word about this campaign will be essential for the documentary completion and raising awareness about community networks and the commons. You can see who has already co-finance this project here . *Visit the campaign's web page:* https://goteo.org/project/building-communities-of-commons?lang=3Den Thank you in advance! George Klissiaris Sarantaporo.gr --001a113ec8941db681052358e1cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=ABBuilding Communities of Commons in Gree= ce=C2=BB
A documentary about "Sarantaporo.gr Wireless Community Net= work" in Greece


On October 16th 2015, the Personal Cinema group, in co= operation with Sara= ntaporo.gr Non Profit Organization, launched a c= rowdfunding campaign at goteo.org crowdfunding platform to gather resou= rces for the production of a documentary titled =C2=ABBuilding Communiti= es of Commons in Greece - A documentary about mesh and community networks i= n Sarantaporo area in Greece=C2=BB.

The documentary concerns the area of Sarantaporo, a village in Elassona=20 Municipality in central Greece, where four years ago a group of people=20 initiated the set up of a wireless community network (Sarantaporo.gr=20 Community Network), now available in Sarantaporo and 14 more=20 neighbouring villages. This infrastructure is not only about offering remote areas the opportunity of internet=20 access, but it is also about creating a model for development, operation and expansion of community wireless networks to be replicated in other=20 distant areas. Furthermore, it is about building communities aiming at=20 local socioeconomic development and collaborative production of common=20 goods (like common infrastructures).

The resources raised by the=20 campaign will allow, not only the completion of the documentary, but=20 also its best possible utilization by organizing public projections and=20 open discussions to communicate and support the project and to raise=20 awareness about wireless community networks and the commons - production models based on the principle of peer production and social economy.
You can see a promo trailer video of the documentary here and a prom= o video of the crowdfunding campaign here. (english subtitles are avai= lable)

Your contribution both co-financing and spreading the word about this=20 campaign will be essential for the documentary completion and raising=20 awareness about community networks and the commons. You can see who has=20 already co-finance this project here.=

Visit the campaign's web page:
https://goteo.org/project/building-communities-of-commons?lang=3Den
Thank you in advance!

George Klissiaris
Sarantap= oro.gr
--001a113ec8941db681052358e1cb--