From nobody Wed Jun 23 05:14:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30A03A35AC for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 05:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z353ZIhACtGd for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 05:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D1963A35AE for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 05:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [212.68.24.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95FCB600001 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 15:14:23 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1624450463; bh=a6OxLkyVkFtWH2hIcqwo87njWNho8VSNjpYd/zmUNwY=; h=From:Subject:References:To:Date; b=fwAb8MakIxkBHMDGvMopRKfk0mUW7pydWZEAj8LJO3OTfDhS480LwifNI28prqOk4 83auyaWp0rtFStCGVHjltwLKCQuMJUJDgUlzureYDWxn8eM745Lsgtlo6il92efC9+ Rr4aBneiGLlFdow5H4ms5B7vdUptNihlbVDVFISA= From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E7867933-96BB-4A58-A515-FE13ED24001C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 15:14:21 +0300 X-MailScanner-ID: 95FCB600001.A1FF6 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:14:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E7867933-96BB-4A58-A515-FE13ED24001C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_85C2D914-3167-4F9A-B179-DE2E1D58C819" --Apple-Mail=_85C2D914-3167-4F9A-B179-DE2E1D58C819 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the = ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence = submitted an -02 update to draft-eggert-bcp45bis. As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the = "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an = update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already = taken [2].) draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, = reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed = sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly = taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org = (e.g., admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" = lists, etc.), and to reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. = I did not intend to make any other changes to BCP45. I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more = fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org . it would be = useful to understand which direction the community would like to take = here. Thanks, Lars [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ = [2] = https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ = [3] = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.t= xt = [4] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1= XzI = Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > Date: June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 > To: "Lars Eggert" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis > Revision: 02 > Title: IETF Discussion List Charter > Document date: 2021-06-23 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 6 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ > Html: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 >=20 > Abstract: > The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list > furthers the development and specification of Internet technology > through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated > mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing = list, > considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are > unsuitable for this mailing list. >=20 > This document obsoletes RFC3005. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_85C2D914-3167-4F9A-B179-DE2E1D58C819 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi,

I'd = like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the ietf@ietf.org discussion= list, and have hence submitted an -02 update to = draft-eggert-bcp45bis.

As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 = after the "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised = action, an update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was = already taken [2].)

draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to = BCP45, reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed = sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly = taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g., = admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to = reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not = intend to make any other changes to BCP45.

I'll point out that there are other = proposals [3][4] that propose more fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be = useful to understand which direction the community would like to take = here.

Thanks,
Lars

[2] https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-gui= dance/


Begin = forwarded message:

Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
Date: = June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 = GMT+3
To: = "Lars Eggert" <lars@eggert.org>


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Wed, 23 Jun 2021 22:07:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-530-gd0c265785f-fm-20210616.002-gd0c26578 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 12:06:37 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?Updating_the_IETF_Discussion_List_Charte?= =?utf-8?q?r_=28was=3A_Fwd=3A_New_Version_Notification_for_draft-eggert-bc?= =?utf-8?q?p45bis-02=2Etxt=29?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 02:07:13 -0000 While a discussion on the broader topic is worthwhile, we should not let that stand in the way of making real progress on things we know to be good, like the changes in this document. I would prefer to see this document advance. Dispatch answer: AD sponsorship, at worst it needs the sort of tuning that was in the last revision (all good changes). On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, at 22:14, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the > ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update > to draft-eggert-bcp45bis. > > As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the > "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an > update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already > taken [2].) > > draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, > reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed > sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly > taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g., > admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to > reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to > make any other changes to BCP45. > > I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more > fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand > which direction the community would like to take here. > > Thanks, > Lars > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ > [2] > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ > [3] > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.txt > [4] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > > *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt* > > *Date: *June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 > > *To: *"Lars Eggert" > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis > > Revision: 02 > > Title: IETF Discussion List Charter > > Document date: 2021-06-23 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 6 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ > > Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis > > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 > > > > Abstract: > > The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list > > furthers the development and specification of Internet technology > > through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated > > mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, > > considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are > > unsuitable for this mailing list. > > > > This document obsoletes RFC3005. > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > Attachments: > * signature.asc From nobody Wed Jun 23 19:25:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01AA3A1B9F for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:25:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QZ-UtvnBPA9H for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCC243A1B9E for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id h2so5977802iob.11 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:25:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=05jSdELgpw2RG6YHLOs7QZKeF8hJutdJI7pz8M8fJZE=; b=Vea3gqV4adGykBMrrMfOh5TOEXWURbt7aANs/a+C0FS1uA7vTWYwprhlyg3ijoH3cZ dUSfnyqCBfYneOrBNgB1XK3gKVBX7vcxWHdrXpDq+r/7Uq5Mp0kEm28Cm4KH67SEX6CI YeNwGzWEyCcEsBNHnX2oO/5Ulv4dnmw+ph5zx1xqd482k0h9z3p9p7Y/gBKp3gnILrdi X375630xSByRc4EXwBgzu+sLeAIzMOIM4couT+bujzmloFuOLUUSErKVyzIXiUpeKQi9 Gp9X6jWOpiW2qdguxTh7Lu7bdx+hKJuemDvOIYtJ6UgPUCshnESshnX0/x4y2x/omNHc Fe0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=05jSdELgpw2RG6YHLOs7QZKeF8hJutdJI7pz8M8fJZE=; b=X+UFXbCPlKSYpObWC5mBUaYLn9x9FnZQClMSAZTjKrT7uQC8jX1n9wEJEQ4R4LstPa FtKQegaoe3R9oyopbPLDrkj+pfpl24/6bcCOd+VpW8ympTXYc5knFI2JScCkp5w8RBl4 BzEXAAHPDn1WTh15wKe8SKHiQ+tGvpTQ9C/9zGXsMd0H0v34Lk6NgIhE0YRr7yUgtvHH pd/HhYlHnVusr1FVcKtoWWOhyaUFo0z6Fgy+c9k3W0Jhr6RtMsLgwpN56rAtwgir3+iB SiwGSKpz8nj6PYemfCsGJnt5x1WnJOjrJiZlDFS3tyhzhvwrR6n5zDEGbdd++PoU0xQU RDbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530lOfFHyVaVvmR+wUM0xxv8tlLFpmn9i6jpoyINBwyEUY3NRaB/ Jz2QhqUbHU4vs7qP6DTzZuL5q634vBEIur1zo8k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxUVf1Qk/KoG8XgU7X1u1Q69cfnuGHZeSZlKlSTI9VhiFkR0Avg2qj1ptuzE/Mj2KrmOZQO/Z+8csiuKEuedhg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:581:: with SMTP id v1mr2180863iox.192.1624501534383; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:25:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:25:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4e13a05c579bc56" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 02:25:42 -0000 --000000000000e4e13a05c579bc56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Agreeing with Martin: there's nothing to object to in draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02. I also agree with "Dispatch answer: AD sponsorship". I think my proposal[4] still has some benefits. For example, I don't think this kind of thread is an accurate representation of the IETF: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/v78xy4qs-EgrMVNx8BkNhIONODU/ but happy to defer to others on this one, Rob [4] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 7:07 PM Martin Thomson wrote: > While a discussion on the broader topic is worthwhile, we should not let > that stand in the way of making real progress on things we know to be good, > like the changes in this document. I would prefer to see this document > advance. > > Dispatch answer: AD sponsorship, at worst it needs the sort of tuning that > was in the last revision (all good changes). > > On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, at 22:14, Lars Eggert wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the > > ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update > > to draft-eggert-bcp45bis. > > > > As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the > > "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an > > update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already > > taken [2].) > > > > draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, > > reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed > > sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly > > taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g., > > admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to > > reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to > > make any other changes to BCP45. > > > > I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more > > fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand > > which direction the community would like to take here. > > > > Thanks, > > Lars > > > > [1] > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ > > [2] > > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ > > [3] > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.txt > > [4] > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > > > *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt* > > > *Date: *June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 > > > *To: *"Lars Eggert" > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > > > has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the > > > IETF repository. > > > > > > Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis > > > Revision: 02 > > > Title: IETF Discussion List Charter > > > Document date: 2021-06-23 > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > Pages: 6 > > > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ > > > Html: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html > > > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis > > > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 > > > > > > Abstract: > > > The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list > > > furthers the development and specification of Internet technology > > > through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated > > > mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, > > > considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are > > > unsuitable for this mailing list. > > > > > > This document obsoletes RFC3005. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > Attachments: > > * signature.asc > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000e4e13a05c579bc56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreeing with Martin: there's nothing to object t= o in=C2=A0draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02. I also agree with "Dispatch answer= : AD sponsorship".

I think my proposal[4] sti= ll has some benefits. For example, I don't think this kind of thread is= an accurate representation of the IETF:



[4] https://mail= archive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI
<= br>
On Wed,= Jun 23, 2021 at 7:07 PM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
While a discussion on the broader topic is worthwhil= e, we should not let that stand in the way of making real progress on thing= s we know to be good, like the changes in this document.=C2=A0 I would pref= er to see this document advance.

Dispatch answer: AD sponsorship, at worst it needs the sort of tuning that = was in the last revision (all good changes).

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, at 22:14, Lars Eggert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the=
> ietf@ietf.org d= iscussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update
> to draft-eggert-bcp45bis.
>
> As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the=
> "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised a= ction, an
> update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already =
> taken [2].)
>
> draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, > reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed
> sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly=
> taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g.,
> admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and= to
> reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend t= o
> make any other changes to BCP45.
>
> I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose = more
> fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand
> which direction the community would like to take here.
>
> Thanks,
> Lars
>
> [1]
> https://mailarchive.ietf= .org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/
> [2]
> https://www.ietf.org/about= /groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/
> [3]
> https://www.ietf.or= g/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.txt
> [4]
> https://mailarchiv= e.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
> > *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02= .txt*
> > *Date: *June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3
> > *To: *"Lars Eggert" <lars@eggert.org>
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the<= br> > > IETF repository.
> >
> > Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis
> > Revision: 02
> > Title: IETF Discussion List Charter
> > Document date: 2021-06-23
> > Group: Individual Submission
> > Pages: 6
> > URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.tx= t
> > Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/
> > Html:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.h= tml
> > Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis
> > Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-0= 2
> >
> > Abstract:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion= mailing list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0furthers the development and specification of Interne= t technology
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0through the general discussion of topics for which no= dedicated
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0mailing lists exists.=C2=A0 As this is the most gener= al IETF mailing list,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts= that are
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0unsuitable for this mailing list.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document obsoletes RFC3005.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> >
> >
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch
>
> Attachments:
> * signature.asc

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000e4e13a05c579bc56-- From nobody Wed Jun 23 20:01:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5693A1CB1 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmiP2Jaeogei for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 925E63A1CB2 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892F35C00A6 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:01:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=qSKJpu +mUt+hq3hJa/O4QSB0HToLxyesEJT1x8OGE00=; b=ON8gp8W5k17IrSwiaUASb6 IWfw7oh11CPtcZKVXAu2BekTiW3GyE14IYVEZWFrHQd60E6shSe6l6RP4t73Cnrr PDMxHdLvkXJ9/jOAHcXuDgv3jGrb6Mg21HPprOUgshqmZiGGB9gzdjtgjsM3ykmK eGr3cN9H8kYgYuY8a9K6r9dK0TtjvFOO70MKalspQynAAl0uTs9UBGGYrA3VLXKP xZMmpTVmtFaPQSwhzpXUwzGCZCD2VjE8H8lpYssu8PAKxPWohXTsrXYvriZPUSQh XlCus7P3DxGp7ml0zYHr8szu0tcAixpOi1zxUlFs76LMrd1GkzSYaVEhE/cAkSYA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeeggedgheelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefheenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveegheefhfdthe etudeuhfetvdekledufffhteeuvdekheeujefggfduieehtdefnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:01:43 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8efc73be-bdab-9505-eab6-2e0f736b4227@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:01:43 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EBFD1DDD108B475E6EF20AFA" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 03:01:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EBFD1DDD108B475E6EF20AFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm mostly fine with this document, except that IMO the Sergeant-at-arms should NOT be appointed by the IETF Chair, should not take direction from the IETF Chair, and the IAB should have explicit power to override the decisions of the SAA. More generally, neither the IETF Chair nor the IESG should be in the business of policing the IETF list, because having the IESG "take sides" in such discussions interferes with the ability of the IESG to serve as a fair and trusted arbiter of technical decisions. Keith On 6/23/21 8:14 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the > ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence > submitted an -02 update to draft-eggert-bcp45bis. > > As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the > "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an > update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already > taken [2].) > > draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, > reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed > sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly > taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org > (e.g., admin-discuss, the per-meeting > "attendees" lists, etc.), and to reference the > currentSergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to make any > other changes to BCP45. > > I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more > fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org . it would > be useful to understand which direction the community would like to > take here. > > Thanks, > Lars > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ > > [2] > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ > > [3] > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.txt > > [4] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI > > > > Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt* >> *Date: *June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 >> *To: *"Lars Eggert" > >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name:draft-eggert-bcp45bis >> Revision:02 >> Title:IETF Discussion List Charter >> Document date:2021-06-23 >> Group:Individual Submission >> Pages:6 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ >> >> Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html >> >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis >> >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 >> >> >> Abstract: >> The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list >> furthers the development and specification of Internet technology >> through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated >> mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, >> considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are >> unsuitable for this mailing list. >> >> This document obsoletes RFC3005. >> >> >> >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> >> > --------------EBFD1DDD108B475E6EF20AFA Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I'm mostly fine with this document, except that IMO the Sergeant-at-arms should NOT be appointed by the IETF Chair, should not take direction from the IETF Chair, and the IAB should have explicit power to override the decisions of the SAA.

More generally, neither the IETF Chair nor the IESG should be in the business of policing the IETF list, because having the IESG "take sides" in such discussions interferes with the ability of the IESG to serve as a fair and trusted arbiter of technical decisions.

Keith

On 6/23/21 8:14 AM, Lars Eggert wrote:
Hi,

I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the ietf@ietf.orgdiscussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update to draft-eggert-bcp45bis.

As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already taken [2].)

draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly taken over some of the original purposes forietf@ietf.org(e.g., admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to reference the currentSergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to make any other changes to BCP45.

I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more fundamental changes toietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand which direction the community would like to take here.

Thanks,
Lars

[2]https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
Date: June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3
To: "Lars Eggert" <lars@eggert.org>


A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis
Revision: 02
Title: IETF Discussion List Charter
Document date: 2021-06-23
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 6
URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/
Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html
Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02

Abstract:
The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list
furthers the development and specification of Internet technology
through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated
mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list,
considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are
unsuitable for this mailing list.

This document obsoletes RFC3005.




The IETF Secretariat



--------------EBFD1DDD108B475E6EF20AFA-- From nobody Wed Jun 23 20:29:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF763A1D91 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZqxIR088fDD for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58DB73A1D93 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id 13-20020a17090a08cdb029016eed209ca4so2616724pjn.1 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:29:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vi7+NLtAJVuREiXOWuMmFW27bzu9muBW763K7DihYc4=; b=QcJvnGqhgRoUjmgd2wL60Zm5JYdVDrBivwGIWqFb/MqS79NfCluGVBmqxb/ldPs0ce OfMSyfLpkt5AIvngOMbEgmBWu9a6rN9AVwPMUfnGpR4Pdaapor6lu4187L/xUWsfNfYA 2CjzuWcHwA5KP0ssZJGH21YDNDk9kkTjgSFLAKxj67aiMFr5mD7x1x0IZEPYjI5SGqls t5YAZmns79hgfL9eb9ECRexVE460Xgls/j5wtYlGUhWfmSy8KQ4u7I9QOINH+6MA+Fda DQ6C93gbKEjDrXg/NNLk8tYevRyFX6SMoC3VotBbM0N7cNWCLeYI0ii5wAjnQ0ns0B1U 2uow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vi7+NLtAJVuREiXOWuMmFW27bzu9muBW763K7DihYc4=; b=ErJu6WI0IdXDhpZ6nVIALtBSjRiCPrtzadjXgXdySL7ja5KwTKUjfQQH9uYSC18cSv gV/D+PimLBa2xGP5J8OuffWCuLgm17tTEarux8ekUJFvqS2OkcwolZJaisOHl88cYcgX GhT19KuAtaMLQo8N6ysi3IDGNx04L2DXW7jzGTWXYk44GF/8joFbS8I5/UmUzbRwtq1E u51shDtr1ARhZz6WwUeT2hAbfZBek1uYWsfZFTSKYwhT9S40JavUpuSTDl15rz7mYRzx czKHgYL+aNt67emdYMf67Y1F4SYY7iHS3DvZQB/JABiaoRbEipJgFndwYK0xPur71WE8 Jv9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FZsgNPdTQLuml8BSeFsBli1OSV7ZUlLWu/WtwWRa1wN1V5JDv OWzkb5YVeTkgajb/LCvnIhCvfhtWiEZhkg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxOiNxD2L7HHlCLYaRwC+hqsdQP89dxdiQMmxmDyzFYFyKni5IA9aFtGDxOOFvZRYg88bRW0A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b795:: with SMTP id m21mr2982378pjr.143.1624505343708; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:100d:901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:100d:901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q9sm544041pgt.31.2021.06.23.20.29.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:29:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Lars Eggert , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:28:59 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 03:29:10 -0000 Ready for AD Sponsorship IMHO. The deeper issues need a different discuss= ion. Regards Brian On 24-Jun-21 00:14, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the ietf= @ietf.org =C2=A0discussion list, and have hence sub= mitted an -02 update to draft-eggert-bcp45bis. >=20 > As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the = "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an upd= ate of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already taken = [2].) >=20 > draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, refl= ecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed sensible to = also add information about other lists that have similarly taken over som= e of the original purposes for=C2=A0ietf@ietf.org =C2= =A0(e.g., admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to=20 reference the current=C2=A0Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend=20 to make any other changes to BCP45. >=20 > I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more = fundamental changes to=C2=A0ietf@ietf.org . it woul= d be useful to understand which direction the community would like to tak= e here. >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > [1]=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7= GbGngqSg/ > [2]=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-gu= idance/ > [3]=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-re= charter-00.txt > [4]=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQ= maC8W4ZJn5c1XzI >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org >> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt*= >> *Date: *June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 >> *To: *"Lars Eggert" > >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name:draft-eggert-bcp45bis >> Revision:02 >> Title:IETF Discussion List Charter >> Document date:2021-06-23 >> Group:Individual Submission >> Pages:6 >> URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ >> Html: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0http= s://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html >> Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf= =2Eorg/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis >> Diff: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0http= s://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 >> >> Abstract: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mail= ing list >> =C2=A0=C2=A0furthers the development and specification of Internet tec= hnology >> =C2=A0=C2=A0through the general discussion of topics for which no dedi= cated >> =C2=A0=C2=A0mailing lists exists. =C2=A0As this is the most general IE= TF mailing list, >> =C2=A0=C2=A0considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that=20 are >> =C2=A0=C2=A0unsuitable for this mailing list. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0This document obsoletes RFC3005. >> >> >> >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Jun 24 10:24:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DF83A2499 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:24:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.294 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.294 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.198, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FkvjFVqNc7ej for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F0A3A2496 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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[24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p16sm3893149wrs.52.2021.06.24.10.42.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <8944E647-30CC-4910-B696-41E8A9ED996A@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2D6B14E8-6D2B-4F47-8195-63CA92B5FB04"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:42:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Lars Eggert References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 17:42:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2D6B14E8-6D2B-4F47-8195-63CA92B5FB04 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I read the draft and support it. Bob > On Jun 24, 2021, at 10:24 AM, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 > Looks fine to me. I think Keith=E2=80=99s concern should be raised = when discussion the other proposals. This is a small quick fix to update = some outdated things, as you said. >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_2D6B14E8-6D2B-4F47-8195-63CA92B5FB04 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmDUw/IACgkQrut0EXfn u6jVVQgAqf44E6ZCh4W1nnGvMGCQSqhdDxvWACy3Bzxzmv8//wFwfzJr3MA+XhoL QPMumCvaIABhLHfP4YTJq8Sg0/N/EXL0VTW8O5nDRlGWzoUd2iR6J/MN3WEZ9lW9 mPNdUoUpjE7Zb6JLol2tuHW03OE0jgYmzDohE5HmSnxaH/hWUdbxXXI/yWLZXu9b EonCMJxbRmR+5Xuj5EEB8o+3pPs9P5Qk/9bfytYsE53rg5fNp3AL+Kw5z8ZdjysN ZgIcH8c0t7n29B3kDC6cemhjkNLVn+nuVzNoDPY63tVss+RwhzPH7vUiU3nsACAF 30htFPkzyLYj/XSP2U4r4fbfQKApNA== =nEy4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2D6B14E8-6D2B-4F47-8195-63CA92B5FB04-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 15:30:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2026E3A2D91 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cn5YIVyLwxZQ for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 782153A2D8F for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642975C0126 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:29:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=yvG6pV Qd4CvaEUQxnd8ZT74RAROLzodn78v/+TPVbw8=; b=jpqiUbp+xmgZa29N6wfREt l70eKhQAEXwSuyUgNIx60WgOKI3G/C5cu/1mE4LXG3EIYQeHkBpeLzn3AU6wlAAV 2eg91GIvtMhWwRRw5OUw2OehN0bIFa6c0Cm1aC1fRTKZaXufgZfCZknxbu20YsKR 3ueUE+7YNw7PuAjl6+xfPe+s5O0QC2vBFasgv+tIJ2ap2Ql2WO1pHJEuTNedNjeI ABgQq+Vr9T4pA4ThASnvkF0SUUrB6wJuJEVcEP1kfHVB0xhnlO4lHbgv52on9F+n 3OviEiZqar/HpP9VDtd8SVQb9IaSZ991TVCWY9SQbd95dZPMf3VD9cjaim4F/OLQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeegiedgudduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkh dqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:29:58 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:29:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B0F89ADD8A83109994DE65D5" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 22:30:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B0F89ADD8A83109994DE65D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/24/21 1:24 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > Looks fine to me. I think Keith’s concern should be raised when > discussion the other proposals. This is a small quick fix to update > some outdated things, as you said. > it's not a fix, it's  something that has been broken for a very long time... it just hasn't caused many problems until relatively recently. the real question is: are we a concensus-making body or is it okay if the leaders impose their prejudices on the discussion? IMO the current text is absolutely unacceptable. Keith --------------B0F89ADD8A83109994DE65D5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 6/24/21 1:24 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:

Looks fine to me. I think Keith’s concern should be raised when discussion the other proposals. This is a small quick fix to update some outdated things, as you said.

it's not a fix, it's  something that has been broken for a very long time... it just hasn't caused many problems until relatively recently.

the real question is: are we a concensus-making body or is it okay if the leaders impose their prejudices on the discussion?

IMO the current text is absolutely unacceptable.

Keith


--------------B0F89ADD8A83109994DE65D5-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 15:34:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FE33A2DB9 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PvCm3RKXr4dT for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CC9B3A2DB5 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id g22so10337047iom.1 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:34:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9Q4/rV8J4JESEtGXlPlwPxj2uq9YYq/4nWUwVrUmnVk=; b=SXcmLHWc0F4+biJQaCGvvhKpqanOW/AygxNCtX982uGcH1OhpHwPsuTR2OfrS68by/ JaJM3NyqPLcFBIH/N9c1Eu+pTHXz4o5kYYgQKzAiO3gUqQWwdDNigdfdLVB/5Fz7/ydT 4z82Jc+ivJ2aq3Pq5+bLW5EXwsX6l4GiW0XWxGh/LSb06v68ISd7++OqXE5hLSjNhCkb hC9W8VYCIbHHptv5ENd7zdYc72q+1ppZ9FQHfF2VpYqystzz+HyvIpaCFP9FcBMtQRBY srYXlPJzbZf5zvYN/j3cxQTgA3k3Nys5ekU1l7LfEJ9aIrht6gygEeK1i8umiCMh9ZKq ricA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9Q4/rV8J4JESEtGXlPlwPxj2uq9YYq/4nWUwVrUmnVk=; b=KWGUvhzki5P1TMJ6uhmgkz3yNWJwEvQOLsdmm/LP9xT6XSe8egjS6qR/PixYoNgYJl kRRHdDhc2Vb+9nbHxhV9cqO6z4i0OOAtAnx8qQ8ZtSPjkCmS6p9pLnm6Xfb16cClOtbM zX6DjVBXHKW8cBgQ2ZsEDOhgpgqgz7Do0EW3AfqxhneGmDpPB/opsXAlGq+cnf7Qtw4u YFz89O9i/fTOxdye//z5sdmzyt16JpcLFyCJ8Aip0ST23jna+CrCB8sUcCycjvZeApVu SUyM5aJha1qEOBmfxSf33eMuIb4s1NviCEUdxV8STl5hOBRHoXn5BBePD9Whz5dkRTz0 U5QA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313S3JUtpmOIkuCuqqJpt2iyJG5qNNXKpReO0yr37UOhNF6c6bQ GZDwZ7N+ZEHD2I4rDWpjxbxfM4wK8bOLvHtLOLCC7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3/uzqAjO43fk+vJvRtzEr7Sblrb+NJ9gi/Q5TxRz/RC6AaHYUVUPpFYbIuEAN+dnxf+XudTj5HRzyv5VJ1Ck= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f914:: with SMTP id j20mr5752639iog.127.1624574054080; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:34:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:33:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067b81905c58a9f24" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 22:34:20 -0000 --00000000000067b81905c58a9f24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This looks like a good start. One thing I would note here is that the guidelines/procedures for the SAA function are references to non-RFCs. I think that's OK, but it's worth noting that this means that they are not cast in stone by this RFC. -Ekr On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 5:14 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the > ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update to > draft-eggert-bcp45bis. > > As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the > "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an > update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already taken > [2].) > > draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, > reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed sensible > to also add information about other lists that have similarly taken over > some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g., admin-discuss, the > per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to reference the > current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to make any other > changes to BCP45. > > I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more > fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand > which direction the community would like to take here. > > Thanks, > Lars > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ > [2] https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ > [3] > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.txt > [4] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt* > *Date: *June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 > *To: *"Lars Eggert" > > > A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis > Revision: 02 > Title: IETF Discussion List Charter > Document date: 2021-06-23 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 6 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ > Html: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 > > Abstract: > The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list > furthers the development and specification of Internet technology > through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated > mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, > considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are > unsuitable for this mailing list. > > This document obsoletes RFC3005. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000067b81905c58a9f24 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This looks like a good start.

One thing I would note here is that the guidelines/procedures for the SAA= function are references to non-RFCs. I think that's OK, but it's w= orth noting that this means that they are not cast in stone by this RFC.

-Ekr


On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 5:14 = AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org&g= t; wrote:
Hi,

I'd like to = restart the discussion on updating the charter for the ietf@ietf.org=C2=A0discussion list, and = have hence submitted an -02 update to draft-eggert-bcp45bis.

=
As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 aft= er the "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised= action, an update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was a= lready taken [2].)

draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intend= ed to be a minimal update to BCP45, reflecting the creation of the last-cal= l mailing list. It seemed sensible to also add information about other list= s that have similarly taken over some of the original purposes for=C2=A0ietf@ietf.org=C2=A0(e.g= ., admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and t= o reference the current=C2=A0Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend= to make any other changes to BCP45.

I'll poin= t out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more fundamental c= hanges to=C2=A0ietf@ietf= .org. it would be useful to understand which direction the community wo= uld like to take here.

Thanks,
Lars=

<= div>[2]=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/ies= g/statements/last-call-guidance/


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: New Version= Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
Date: Ju= ne 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3
To: "Lars Eggert" &= lt;lars@eggert.org= >


A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-b= cp45bis-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted= to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bi= s
Revision: 02
Title: IETF Discussion List Charter
Document date: 2021-06-23
Group: Individual Su= bmission
Pages: 6
URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/ar= chive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt
Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-eggert-bcp45bis/
Html: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eg= gert-bcp45bis-02.html
Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis<= /a>
Diff: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-02<= /a>

Abstract:
=C2=A0=C2=A0The Internet Engineering Task Force (I= ETF) discussion mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0furthers the development and s= pecification of Internet technology
=C2=A0=C2=A0through the general dis= cussion of topics for which no dedicated
=C2=A0=C2=A0mailing lists exis= ts.=C2=A0 As this is the most general IETF mailing list,
=C2=A0=C2=A0co= nsiderable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are
=C2=A0=C2= =A0unsuitable for this mailing list.

=C2=A0=C2=A0This document obso= letes RFC3005.




The IETF Secretariat



--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--00000000000067b81905c58a9f24-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 15:37:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B45F3A2DCF for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rt29qQGy9-YL for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 184483A2DCE for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id b5so7904158ilc.12 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JgediNIQFqWXDC9vB4qMQNkbpMzg4g5WGwbXASaISsM=; b=JoFoZ1RXkCb0e4ctCIXGlkC6xN9Nle27Ypse4habChN+uQZvVe3LteTDsy2I79wwKF CmLLaph3ATDMniETE+HfegfTK4WuT/ZqWwThSBhRnQe07VWp2wLc/d1BszYg2PQNzoP6 ccecI4fjQokGxa7i90/XBBVblUbPxxmVOSIS3keg4Yz44jBOJwWbiUr5Kb7Ya7ab4qJZ XZ2gzAyTNC+TTm1yz75rwRRtN40XNC7brxhZPYvVFLpUxBSG2LNPrYdK+pRGy85JF4dK 45P3ssIRUHNcM2djoW8yANBWCGLATmU7PXAx7TWfSVwT7h9Sci93EgWrUxvE91OttSZG x4QA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JgediNIQFqWXDC9vB4qMQNkbpMzg4g5WGwbXASaISsM=; b=B7h00pDv2XbnycRVzvgGFzIhhD0WB+QQIG9Em9/eF49FN9aZPFf9+PoJhlnDrJwOEH vKx/SizykIp7lhgC5UB5+I97UThv71FnPbS6vDdBl43GnlmJNxzChP/3ZpBCy9N9cva1 OLzIOqiPDE710rzHmXzOMMzn7NnHqqd2FnZfGauE6Ux5Jvfi/f+s6TBia0WPdL8bsdTQ qO4RCDHHJJ9C5L6ZN7i/xFomumIn1kkXxLvXzR4Yr2w8y+Fwqr+e+31GMbSXnBmCi0dG FETX0CUDRnW8cYp7g1a/w508DPfYfiWKEmgPVMTLK+cfOUGAZ721p3lhkuDP3mYtNsGz VJew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533/4EXeR1S0oWMvb8YnmNYzqCDjpC9bUj+KjjwFcWMA3CtP71j8 anfvg8fT4CPk25lauluF6EQ0lrREG1iWkKc7KuqQlw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTCFgG9ar0dUZIsAtba0YeUlYX/QBZKp5u1o0tU/hzpMF+XPLYDrLGbwcFmbIbaQuUgZgW8r/P3itBauSQLJM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9509:: with SMTP id y9mr5247479ilh.18.1624574242013; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:37:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:36:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009b542605c58aaafb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 22:37:29 -0000 --0000000000009b542605c58aaafb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 3:30 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 6/24/21 1:24 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > Looks fine to me. I think Keith=E2=80=99s concern should be raised when d= iscussion > the other proposals. This is a small quick fix to update some outdated > things, as you said. > > it's not a fix, it's something that has been broken for a very long > time... it just hasn't caused many problems until relatively recently. > > the real question is: are we a concensus-making body or is it okay if the > leaders impose their prejudices on the discussion? > Well, I suppose it's *a* question, but I don't think I agree that it's *the* real question. In any case, ISTM that this document simply records the status quo. I would suggest that if we want to revisit how the IETF list is moderated or other bigger changes that should be done separately. -Ekr --0000000000009b542605c58aaafb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



=
On Thu, Ju= n 24, 2021 at 3:30 PM Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

On 6/24/21 1:24 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:

Looks fine to me. I think Keith=E2=80=99s conc= ern should be raised when discussion the other proposals. This is a small quick fix to update some outdated things, as you said.

it's not a fix, it's=C2=A0 something that has been broken fo= r a very long time... it just hasn't caused many problems until relatively recently.

the real question is: are we a concensus-making body or is it okay if the leaders impose their prejudices on the discussion?

Well, I suppose it's *a* question, but I do= n't think I agree that it's *the* real question.

In any case, ISTM that this document simply records the status quo. = I would suggest that if we want to revisit how the IETF list is moderated o= r other bigger changes that should be done separately.

=
-Ekr
--0000000000009b542605c58aaafb-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 16:01:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444B13A2E85 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pVyxNR2xAupZ for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A28E43A2E81 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795B75C004D; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:01:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=lIDjb1SEbSYNB5LU4ruI9bqBSnk2nPM0bsqjaOU3D i0=; b=aiSV+LAAkEvokZt29aoNJMsLN3XqcV9OWD5AbFv0mo60qVxZtleaQCVIx f/RcyOs7S0js/wV7OHC/I87Jjqs00vQpz4DWsyqD7AuJidZN7NuDrOWbfAuXvBNf +BzWLSpuJyvvp+kVynKiRPUB2WmXN0p3rZ0J+IShi4m8cKzz0Be20ju39RAuagpu hFhh4/zIlcedP4LSAhCGNUa4+zOu7tuldR+gOxoEh9rR1GQPoL3gDAZp2RUAsPn1 K7x89Ct86RAOdO3LU5p3YQDPobX8suhbXzgURMApQol/YANRbCFWPzennZWVIwRp AvpUqX1Q+/F46rh81VVcjxw/G0F5w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeegiedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeef leelueeiffetfeeuudeunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:01:50 -0400 (EDT) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:01:49 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:01:58 -0000 On 6/24/21 6:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > In any case, ISTM that this document simply records the status quo. I > would suggest that if we want to revisit how the IETF list is > moderated or other bigger changes that should be done separately. I disagree because I believe there have been significant problems caused by the abuse of power enabled by the "status quo", which have made IETF much more toxic.  To reaffirm the status quo in light of that experience seems like a huge mistake. Keith From nobody Thu Jun 24 16:09:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4793A2EB8 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:09:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h9dMGZaTBZ6S for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B29CC3A2EB4 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id g22so10433580iom.1 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o2T1eTKEkJhdMzfBSnY2JQOSAzEHviNlJR57ibZk6ks=; b=j5qYFYryEV4YuPUD59byVVeSEAUE1a34IwJtOAl7sT/mERHI62QUnupw0dUf7A990c 18qI0i6+yKcBjsYyE3rVKxb6AlpoA0TwWh/8pzOmkU2z4hirBawsk9n06w2uWsRo6kLk Cu8Y2VBgWg7h4Wfp0xeaagU11SksRgXrGcuz8A/SJmk7JnUcevpRKYB/4DfMe406ONlp 9mWym52Hu5nv3GEWbs4TA5E+Ln2zjw+weh6pE/qAaGnkIywN+56dVI8rZCiOlyV3vWel nnen+zsaBeEYx2wHVCkpb9rugkaTo2IHmdHJs08DGaeRuGyniMM9hqmdDROF2lL0sZQ7 cSYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o2T1eTKEkJhdMzfBSnY2JQOSAzEHviNlJR57ibZk6ks=; b=CYh8SBLvo8tdHg0Dw2ozdMoQb9ZDNgyzjnTYnZB9m7iwXUFsNXrgaip2TlD6Tt1w2d pMRjajwhXm2CWKttAyCurgVfpoSvjus7JhpRcu22Y4Q1q7wscnBzQUhzmXgAVdnHqYX9 ZlxXnzS8mZdoP+tFQzWkIAuLf3URlFL13YnIrm3PsXcAt7No2dWkpeRloUlW+YUBYSYa U85IQuq+kBH89PIUEGPvQyVVHUaCjQMNbbaKrFIcdx6LHHmnW7RUSvyddRusLwfEuh9b xzxmSVL1sfqd+44fh+xKA5jzNRyhaW2oWATb4YiD/Fbe9xTmxFlxHzJ9WnajehZlc9Xc Aw8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531iKCnNMX0iFodzb6mqLeEzLrLS5QYP+nuwLuy8tLvW3BZYGKFu uviuLw78pgbTMX9LYi+2XnKhQZypdl17G4J1cPg3nQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwy6y5zjhRd96YjZ0iBKqkQf0CFtiw/XD/dIq/3rOENLcRxfqiR9e8T/G3kxfTQwXYzmZtcXGQy7Hi7A1sSmY8= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f914:: with SMTP id j20mr5850425iog.127.1624576187274; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:09:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008da91a05c58b1ede" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:09:53 -0000 --0000000000008da91a05c58b1ede Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 4:01 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 6/24/21 6:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > In any case, ISTM that this document simply records the status quo. I > > would suggest that if we want to revisit how the IETF list is > > moderated or other bigger changes that should be done separately. > > I disagree because I believe there have been significant problems caused > by the abuse of power enabled by the "status quo", which have made IETF > much more toxic. To reaffirm the status quo in light of that experience > seems like a huge mistake. > I don't propose to debate the substance of this claim here as I think our respective positions are quite clear. Suffice to say that I do not agree with this analysis of the situation. -Ekr --0000000000008da91a05c58b1ede Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 4:01 PM Keith= Moore <moore@network-here= tics.com> wrote:
On 6/24/21 6:36 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> In any case, ISTM that this document simply records the status quo. I =
> would suggest that if we want to revisit how the IETF list is
> moderated or other bigger changes that should be done separately.

I disagree because I believe there have been significant problems caused by the abuse of power enabled by the "status quo", which have mad= e IETF
much more toxic.=C2=A0 To reaffirm the status quo in light of that experien= ce
seems like a huge mistake.

I don't propose to debate the substance of this claim = here as I think our respective positions are quite clear. Suffice to say th= at I do not agree with this analysis of the situation.

-Ekr


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boundary="yoHNbF7xZi7XGLsVWgObgY0UeRVqJSRmq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Keith Moore , Eric Rescorla Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: <0513d6a1-b08b-7c4a-8548-d2c3b44966ef@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: --yoHNbF7xZi7XGLsVWgObgY0UeRVqJSRmq Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5ACB7C71B9470EB31E3A7B4E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5ACB7C71B9470EB31E3A7B4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25/06/2021 00:01, Keith Moore wrote: >=20 > I disagree because I believe there have been significant problems cause= d=20 > by the abuse of power enabled by the "status quo", which have made IETF= =20 > much more toxic. FWIW, I don't agree with the above. And I think accusations related to toxicity are neither wise nor warranted. It's very easy and maybe even lazy to claim toxicity and to thereby close off conversation. Seems like a bad plan to me, reminiscent of decrying snuff at a wake. (Apologies if the colloquialism doesn't resonate;-) S. 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--yu4HhKE6a6v1Lp5511wPF9BjdeSq3qnAM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmDVGPQFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+q4 /g//Y3mi3nJWnl2mVkYcKvukp3TRywZGeBv1uCRQUdY6JEJ+uN15tFZ6iqwGAClHZyW2PZDtn5v6 zsOXWfwVRYfYIzfYdX6TdURZpSt8VgnZ2/3OwkYPSXhyV+kBsomYwv7ouXcMe6fbxxndts24CEZP XarMer9k44rre/duSCJbsA5qbOlTAOtj/MRqDTJ/JJKFU6oZKJvL9vc00kMjitK4X5A8GRywVdar LCF48LwaC9mnLLIyN1Jg1CyjFYNai8v7XPjb8JNKHF81KHDV55wqhSDy5xaXVYgyZrDnNsLpo6TH PnhUgQGo5edMYoIaFO1LJBIak8PvVHnPtP41jsKRkTmalOOvWBfupV+VD+TOk08VNdsAXBHz/jd1 1n3VPslf+p5/jcdilrvk86QKvbIM3Lz5804zeWc4H07rMLD5EzId5c2FqJBVPFNgo8ASfpqTU2vI hfR70iYIIr8hSJN8ftaP2Sw2kV94kuYK5vB86OE/+D+4Czaf1sildVptM7T8gncgqRE+0XDBVgmy kC0TGCd/M32cOfW2IUK8zkJaDX2w3MuQPJkG9kQ+1PIJg3kgE48AJ11AQaY3aEU2/EssVHaReO6Z /Ez0d+2a2riN7KPoymVSW3JCowX+Nc7NqVimt9RGTodUM4d1VXWWYkIJoR98TWcOo0vaLAQk75oD 7l0= =X/Ue -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yu4HhKE6a6v1Lp5511wPF9BjdeSq3qnAM-- From nobody Thu Jun 24 16:51:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DA43A2FE9 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 16:51:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:51:12 -0400 (EDT) To: Stephen Farrell , Eric Rescorla Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <4E52B157-617B-4D47-8CC8-F994148405B9@akamai.com> <1f4b7d15-53d4-4d57-ca95-ad44c85e0903@network-heretics.com> <0513d6a1-b08b-7c4a-8548-d2c3b44966ef@cs.tcd.ie> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:51:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0513d6a1-b08b-7c4a-8548-d2c3b44966ef@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:51:23 -0000 On 6/24/21 7:44 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 25/06/2021 00:01, Keith Moore wrote: >> >> I disagree because I believe there have been significant problems >> caused by the abuse of power enabled by the "status quo", which have >> made IETF much more toxic. > > FWIW, I don't agree with the above. And I think accusations > related to toxicity are neither wise nor warranted. OK but I sincerely believe that it's an accurate description of a problem that I've observed.   Am I obligated to pretend that the problem doesn't exist or that the situation can't be improved? Keith From nobody Fri Jun 25 00:14:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8F03A3E6A for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 00:14:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=OLXvRvM1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=clGPCTjt Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9I4ZhZotFJO for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 00:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE1D43A3E69 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 00:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C6C320092F; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 03:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 25 Jun 2021 03:14:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=C w19cViR31bGPKOPWpEkhyi5GmfStjFLGFiOgfea0fg=; b=OLXvRvM16R0PPXJSF Qs2FU2NwdIRunV9/QSJdcOvxEBAu7Wa/wV1D0Y6J8OuJej+fF1URf1kKR0q7o6Ye DW8Fzfa8DdBSQEDDsfEe/MrVV3vA5mry218Iaue3QVvGn9tRSbu4LfTtmBjJuMJ1 /ZclnzHGUDLyIw7T7KLhQxw8X8YHAarDGc2KULHo1iJ5JsFtkk9CaScToCMoGxgm uzxXrng6Y9SYpIxZ8dwvGjVAQiKrulam0KeBA6Ga0Ca3H6Skfd+Hp9+HY+A3pcPr XX7/0QruSTyJLOAh4f1NMHSNbL9MlKuEzFiDJ0LQN6XjXjAtNpepwNtQIpNJmL/W avZog== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=Cw19cViR31bGPKOPWpEkhyi5GmfStjFLGFiOgfea0 fg=; b=clGPCTjtaAibuMZ45eEK6MslgPjN3/BSGxKTm6C6HGNi8X5xeAjGBQa6f DdyRKfOhbDcVyCqstJLq7dBhLdYEgHAukQvjjzJY1DrGPEkyqTOYGXgLvkqJnYws jNJrXJGY1QUFpVcPXpwBqdV9WwqVGDkefm6EZp7OGVpPGzkJ5PagjlHH1vnyPz33 U2VCSwq9EUgtq6ZAwbnqzpz2esb7Wdi99XrYryhZpxBFFxr1+C4f+7uAm1hrQWV9 xAWeT9YlhytyRjGc56obvO19Ap5rZyxkChDrtBMRI7JdAVk4OE8ovRp4wZh57e9I ljNsTLoK1DCeloi3vP1gS30N8vjZQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeegiedguddukecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepkeduvdeljeegtefhveekhfdtveekleevkeefgeeludeihfdugedvieeuffdt tdfhnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdr nhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 03:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:14:11 +1000 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 07:14:27 -0000 Hi Lars, Thanks for bringing this up. I agree that draft-eggertg-bcp45bis is a good starting point for = discussion. Looking at draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter again, I think there = are a few things we could pull out and discuss as potential additions, = without going as far as that draft suggests. For example: - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have = all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is = not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along = these lines, the current text about announcements being on = ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official = announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a = discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people = push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they = think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. = I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed. I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the time = to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the = function of GENDISPATCH is (for example). Cheers, > On 23 Jun 2021, at 10:14 pm, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the = ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update to = draft-eggert-bcp45bis. >=20 > As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the = "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an = update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already = taken [2].) >=20 > draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, = reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed = sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly = taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g., = admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to = reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to = make any other changes to BCP45. >=20 > I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more = fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand = which direction the community would like to take here. >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ > [2] = https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ > [3] = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.t= xt > [4] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1= XzI >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >>=20 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> Date: June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 >> To: "Lars Eggert" >>=20 >>=20 >> A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the >> IETF repository. >>=20 >> Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis >> Revision: 02 >> Title: IETF Discussion List Charter >> Document date: 2021-06-23 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 6 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ >> Html: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis >> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list >> furthers the development and specification of Internet technology >> through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated >> mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing = list, >> considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are >> unsuitable for this mailing list. >>=20 >> This document obsoletes RFC3005. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF Secretariat >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Jun 25 01:30:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDB83A0969 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 01:30:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PrL-vAnP-58j for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 01:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D15B63A096C for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 01:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45715C00A8 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 04:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 25 Jun 2021 04:29:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=u7y02ytfgDtJvXtslLu0ajCvPFIJQUcBm7QS4yTKT ww=; b=CLvQC3fZ9U6NHxzjEaznjRMBYPn+VbRG58WM4EFeJYaOoEyRvF4TzQtG/ RiqoWXREasYfWtKyA20jXGfCHRWamdDEYuQWaz6avEta8SNz5wZPgvKk0cLPlrjb hTumtAR1ikaHmXZPlAOWN/IzpkymWF47y0SH+eHZOZdb30j3vetMzBdcmxNGeLtK ZpUQ9ijqrei1jF8dl/bGGItBcO1xSEwHHTVuxfNsMOHgUHv6naK9N1xEIJQFiRS8 viBw/8yiFZOUtWzLFGoaOYUrk2iTUb11S0IvnuNs7pinAWq4WXuFCKxMG2b2ZnSS 7ys6zfT/9K3Ez+Ut9MPT+7reZqXwA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeegjedgtdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorh hkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 04:29:52 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 04:29:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 08:30:03 -0000 On 6/25/21 3:14 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed. IMO we need to reconsider whether "move the discussion to another list" is being overused, because (a) it doesn't seem to work very well, and (b) it often seems as if this technique is used as a tactic to suppress inconvenient input rather than to help build community consensus.   (i.e. if you can't win your argument, maybe you can change the game, and force your opponent to start over from square one.)   It has often seemed to me that gendispatch was created specifically for that purpose. I also strongly suspect that over-fragmentation of our discussions onto different lists makes us less productive and results in even more traffic that people need to wade through. Rather than follow only one list for a particular topic, participants need to follow multiple lists or otherwise risk being blindsided when some other list develops "consensus" on that topic.   And some lists have so much volume that it's very cumbersome to keep up with the traffic, that I wonder whether the creation of increasingly narrow lists actually results in more volume for each list.    As in "now that we have a list for this narrow topic, we can post more messages to that list".   How many people really want to scan through every  Last Call announcement, or every message to ietf-announce?   Is it really ok that many WGs are frequently having "interim" meetings, which is another tactic used to discourage input from the broader community?   Especially when those interim meetings conflict with IETF-wide meetings (virtual or not)? Discussions don't always fit neatly into some narrow category, and there are now so many IETF lists that expecting everyone to choose the "right" list for every input may be unrealistic. Moving a discussion from one list to another may also require many participants to subscribe to new lists, and also to catch up with the discussion context on a different list, both of which are cumbersome and time consuming. I'm not sure what the best answer is, but it's pretty clear that there's a point of diminishing returns to siloing of discussions. Keith p.s. I highly recommend reading IETF mail through the IETF's IMAP server because it doesn't require you to use mailman to subscribe to a new list every time a discussion is moved.   Once I got it working it saved me a great deal of time and frustration.   But I personally found it rather tricky to get it working well enough to use with my MUA (Thunderbird) and suspect I'm not the only one. From nobody Fri Jun 25 14:05:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC8B3A07E0 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:05:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nB-BxrP8Hf3F for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 518273A07DC for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id u190so9168469pgd.8 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:05:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lV2WWZsrkooQGzfTmzzCOo0e3QPHXYRHcvIyKqX8cNg=; b=EUkmOUAOyBz6gnN0oCcUAzypvZKXd4VT/zFq5TsQb2vXVa5i6u05C+aRlf8Ym9UDHM 9n5cPAz0NOrFI8POxl4Fb3R26lP8mJhIIZIBoEKuytWUTHoqtdt941VKcqawpOurxCaf B75RPbsw8LMWcV8SeLjY/8GK22RtvD1yQ39x1tRgosIP+Yo7/cx2cLhfQOJ74avSkGZ1 1pIoHF3n+rfjcvgVmH7qjYqnJmR5pimjImwt+FMm2Re7B8qQRM+8T4cycjyzkenIWEFP 7seWJo1Br1wU5qbQxN+rRrNkHqsbdAG7ZZeqZTfKz0PszeYaOlgg1hK5TpOSF+ruvOV2 xy6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lV2WWZsrkooQGzfTmzzCOo0e3QPHXYRHcvIyKqX8cNg=; b=rDX8J1APj1t6Uv9P/Cgritxuoza8BdNFTrwaNfn3K4Ke+BVOX5dnfI+lh6oZvt+HXf blOmzGNIWuHGn1kuZbKSoYp6hyTF30V+vpppbUQAcTKrXOUui+AxeOkO87Rxq5JSsySH oBzWHKvSgvNDBnh0FwP7SGTxlTb4GGbBtQmVqAQwsO2pJrO8pTD27bIFZfM4TWrQiA3Q 0H9sEdwtaCONn9b9zjhW2m7h9zuN7NvLe8wOrpkdLksDfpNiUMcd9ovaBuSDJg6Kj8Pi hPxS1Wvc0gIwzACAnf33vr10lUukvBTpdsj7zypns13Y6XJ4O8P4hXNQr/nf40dcOE6t kw7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tVwt6FLM6/XeW6oMgm+KKMGLcENzJOVHjA2KquRpv9NmXGD85 k+0OizsWfD79pa6tk6efR1xAgvX79qoeeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRb1elxS8rrUAFSoOHZw7D++OIuU/6Gurnrx5lR7G9fSQkITerebqalP6tsEOQLM/et434lQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:4244:: with SMTP id d4mr11248445pgq.83.1624655152103; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:100d:901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:100d:901:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j79sm7235063pfd.172.2021.06.25.14.05.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:05:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham , Lars Eggert Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 09:05:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 21:05:58 -0000 On 25-Jun-21 19:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Lars, > > Thanks for bringing this up. > > I agree that draft-eggertg-bcp45bis is a good starting point for discussion. > > Looking at draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter again, I think there are a few things we could pull out and discuss as potential additions, without going as far as that draft suggests. For example: > > - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can survive without the -announce list.) > > - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed. I agree with Keith that there's a tricky balance here. But as long as such a tiny fraction of participants even join ietf@, I'm not sure it is worth worrying too much. We should perhaps rather be worrying about why so few people actually care about IETF-wide issues at all. > > I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the time to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the function of GENDISPATCH is (for example). The risk in overloading the newcomers info is that it becomes TL;DR. So my answer is a definite maybe. I did notice that https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/get-started/ doesn't have an obvious pointer to ietf-announce, for example. Adding that is another definite maybe. Rgds Brian > > Cheers, > > > >> On 23 Jun 2021, at 10:14 pm, Lars Eggert wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'd like to restart the discussion on updating the charter for the ietf@ietf.org discussion list, and have hence submitted an -02 update to draft-eggert-bcp45bis. >> >> As you may remember, a past IESG promised an update to BCP45 after the "last-call" experiment succeeded [1]. (The second promised action, an update of the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance - was already taken [2].) >> >> draft-eggert-bcp45bis is intended to be a minimal update to BCP45, reflecting the creation of the last-call mailing list. It seemed sensible to also add information about other lists that have similarly taken over some of the original purposes for ietf@ietf.org (e.g., admin-discuss, the per-meeting "attendees" lists, etc.), and to reference the current Sergeants-at-Arms procedures. I did not intend to make any other changes to BCP45. >> >> I'll point out that there are other proposals [3][4] that propose more fundamental changes to ietf@ietf.org. it would be useful to understand which direction the community would like to take here. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/ >> [2] https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/ >> [3] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter-00.txt >> [4] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/kprAAlSfmWcQmaC8W4ZJn5c1XzI >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >>> Date: June 23, 2021 at 14:54:57 GMT+3 >>> To: "Lars Eggert" >>> >>> >>> A new version of I-D, draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Lars Eggert and posted to the >>> IETF repository. >>> >>> Name: draft-eggert-bcp45bis >>> Revision: 02 >>> Title: IETF Discussion List Charter >>> Document date: 2021-06-23 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 6 >>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt >>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ >>> Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.html >>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eggert-bcp45bis >>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list >>> furthers the development and specification of Internet technology >>> through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated >>> mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, >>> considerable latitude is allowed, but there are posts that are >>> unsuitable for this mailing list. >>> >>> This document obsoletes RFC3005. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The IETF Secretariat >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Fri Jun 25 14:49:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00303A0B20 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVI6zL7qnzOn for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DC433A0B19 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AC15C0071 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:48:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=CGrRDq G2XCOyMFIVbdINUmNwOekkYR5e17kSf6KXqyY=; b=NleKmh1nRjh2u7UkYGuCsz jWmbVJRg6nqh7ZdJzJIt9D5IFM+d/nDQlefQ38SIP+75FHP+yK+iA6tuYlQJADqD 7nPCtpkUjCq0WbkpY6O7tyNrq5/re5DTrCwi5iFA6GcljK28waqbIk2a4ztKAaln +ywV5IbVwAiFAvOy49FC9o8yuI4oq72lGB9YJTcI9NIdfM2YHprDINp9rKpU2Ma6 rqvYTrwtZeDP3BlVyZ8oos4K/M8Img0oq8UzIjglleTAcQkTeQeyOLdssaIaQu4l vF0ndUmSuCxRDywBeYKlafzMlsiTsGSGjHslv2vJ7LW4j4mEWZ3vpYnIUNtWh2ww == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrfeegkedgtddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepudetfeekveevfe eltdekffeigeelkefgudevgedtvdehjefggffglefhvdeuudeinecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:48:56 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <4cff6a1e-f81d-bd91-fd05-0fe9c89e5e35@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:48:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------536861AC4ADC64318582092D" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 21:49:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------536861AC4ADC64318582092D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/25/21 5:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. > I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can survive without the -announce list.) I guess I find myself wondering whether the mailman-style subscription model is becoming obsolete, and what percentage of IETF participants who don't use the IMAP server (wish this were easy for everyone) would prefer to read IETF traffic via a webmail server hosted at IETF if one were provided.   The whole process of subscribing to a new list anytime a conversation moves seems like a significant burden (particularly if you don't want all of your IETF mail to show up in your usual inbox), and it would be a lot less onerous if everyone could move to the new list with a simple click. Regarding ietf-announce, I find it contains far too much low-value information for my tastes, e.g. Last Call and interim meeting announcements for WGs in areas far distant from my concerns, but "too much low-value information" seems like one of email's biggest problems in general.  It's not just spam any more, email has become the dumping ground for all kinds of low-value information.  Nevertheless, I was subscribed to it before I started using the IMAP server, and even now that I'm using the IETF IMAP archive, it's a folder that my MUA is configured to check. >> - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed. > I agree with Keith that there's a tricky balance here. But as long as such a tiny fraction of participants even join ietf@, I'm not sure it is worth worrying too much. We should perhaps rather be worrying about why so few people actually care about IETF-wide issues at all. I wonder if it's the case that so few people really care about IETF-wide issues, or if instead the discussions have become so fragmented across multiple lists that the ietf@ list is stuck with the leftovers.   There was some value in having general discussion occur on the same list as important announcements. >> I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the time to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the function of GENDISPATCH is (for example). > The risk in overloading the newcomers info is that it becomes TL;DR. So my answer is a definite maybe. I did notice thathttps://www.ietf.org/about/participate/get-started/ doesn't have an obvious pointer to ietf-announce, for example. Adding that is another definite maybe. What I find is that the list of IETF mailing lists is bewildering, it's hard to know which lists are currently active and which aren't, and the IETF web site doesn't really help even experienced participants figure out which lists are relevant to their purposes. Keith --------------536861AC4ADC64318582092D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 6/25/21 5:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

- [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'.
I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can survive without the -announce list.)

I guess I find myself wondering whether the mailman-style subscription model is becoming obsolete, and what percentage of IETF participants who don't use the IMAP server (wish this were easy for everyone) would prefer to read IETF traffic via a webmail server hosted at IETF if one were provided.   The whole process of subscribing to a new list anytime a conversation moves seems like a significant burden (particularly if you don't want all of your IETF mail to show up in your usual inbox), and it would be a lot less onerous if everyone could move to the new list with a simple click.

Regarding ietf-announce, I find it contains far too much low-value information for my tastes, e.g. Last Call and interim meeting announcements for WGs in areas far distant from my concerns, but "too much low-value information" seems like one of email's biggest problems in general.  It's not just spam any more, email has become the dumping ground for all kinds of low-value information.  Nevertheless, I was subscribed to it before I started using the IMAP server, and even now that I'm using the IETF IMAP archive, it's a folder that my MUA is configured to check.  

- [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed.
I agree with Keith that there's a tricky balance here. But as long as such a tiny fraction of participants even join ietf@, I'm not sure it is worth worrying too much. We should perhaps rather be worrying about why so few people actually care about IETF-wide issues at all.

I wonder if it's the case that so few people really care about IETF-wide issues, or if instead the discussions have become so fragmented across multiple lists that the ietf@ list is stuck with the leftovers.   There was some value in having general discussion occur on the same list as important announcements.

I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the time to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the function of GENDISPATCH is (for example).
The risk in overloading the newcomers info is that it becomes TL;DR. So my answer is a definite maybe. I did notice that https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/get-started/ doesn't have an obvious pointer to ietf-announce, for example. Adding that is another definite maybe.

What I find is that the list of IETF mailing lists is bewildering, it's hard to know which lists are currently active and which aren't, and the IETF web site doesn't really help even experienced participants figure out which lists are relevant to their purposes.

Keith


--------------536861AC4ADC64318582092D-- From nobody Fri Jun 25 14:57:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319DC3A0BC6 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iIOVr-RBO5Wd for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 799A23A0BC5 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id y76so3569061iof.6 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=U+ZooFzMisuBcCG54RiGUWFNAZZO37vMJzUUaYpGRZM=; b=HJkfCULgxs/q1pnC4cLTcG3F1Bzlj6lWDpIflWAIDf7aPZSlwdkfvtPJZfdjlubytY 1sxOBWshqwLXVYZaIsUV3tR2T9ksMQWoo5eAQcaTrJjE3WKZsyhtyOHdQwQI0kHfhygT 1qU03P5QUCBmN4dTA31kCdwnHDzoTZtrIboDIlSzZgqjZ5pDd7JvQHhDF3pPgodyu61r H8IjtTzSwZ2u2+QuSIIso0q4VsqNFNwaQg2X2mOO1CmauZMiFnjLvP4/fJB6zkamyIMf s50q/+5RUQ+yAtNwalLYw6q5LYY+AgjZdBK8FU3xDcHf4nhL/WgzNT+BRZFKBePGdCAv Afaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=U+ZooFzMisuBcCG54RiGUWFNAZZO37vMJzUUaYpGRZM=; b=djp8mHoqyk4hJm2XryCHDie256JRW9YQriLyo8le8oIiD9S5eoAMVGN40r9ewZ69f4 QEkPNU1zH6zCS3yJzfyOQlLPwyVkxJvkWWuduTJPOx6DF/hZeslPA38F9J9ZBf1uNmP0 VY4CM4wAz9cPSnqumK6ZXGOb0fCwDbHFExtO07fCzMOKw9EydyNnLTk/hbIwi5UqHkmp y0gpJiB7NK0hXa/Y1x9gwW7fEXMKfjjN6eBTw7tsOOMEqBB49vZ8ZyJA/8KXhIUI23Nf 1HMvdvE9iLKfFEWFemiZjjAJfAH7okE11r36FFoBfNQ/RjGrtbCKZpIfjVUywyewEQW8 hdXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jEkUdjtWs+rPIG4Z3hZk4efo0hGEJOfm3KHABx7Lo/ikyTFpn j9zYUaGGsfPnOEgF7H+09OFVH2Fv6mDJGKHvkA3nI8l95au1gA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyeRuljGC+husqItbYloSvtrBGkOg4HpAXHrBbzp8aXqCw3+jkRAVe5n6Dl0vWbc1ceIz/gC91T08UvPEWrMNU= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8b85:: with SMTP id p5mr9955771iol.43.1624658249877; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:57:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <4cff6a1e-f81d-bd91-fd05-0fe9c89e5e35@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <4cff6a1e-f81d-bd91-fd05-0fe9c89e5e35@network-heretics.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:56:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dda88605c59e39e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 21:57:36 -0000 --000000000000dda88605c59e39e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 2:49 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 6/25/21 5:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have = all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not = appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these li= nes, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should be= strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it's n= ot just a 'preference'. > > I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. = In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list sh= ould be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I sti= ll don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can surv= ive without the -announce list.) > > I guess I find myself wondering whether the mailman-style subscription > model is becoming obsolete, and what percentage of IETF participants who > don't use the IMAP server (wish this were easy for everyone) would prefer > to read IETF traffic via a webmail server hosted at IETF if one were > provided. > FWIW, I would not. I prefer to read it in my ordinary mail client. -Ekr --000000000000dda88605c59e39e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 2:49 PM Keith= Moore <moore@network-here= tics.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

On 6/25/21 5:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

- [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list doe=
s not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so=
 it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Alo=
ng these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce=
@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I=
.e., it's not just a 'preference'.
I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-o=
ut list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one W=
G list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personal=
ly, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the =
IETF can survive without the -announce list.)

I guess I find myself wondering whether the mailman-style subscription model is becoming obsolete, and what percentage of IETF participants who don't use the IMAP server (wish this were easy for everyone) would prefer to read IETF traffic via a webmail server hosted at IETF if one were provided.=C2=A0=C2=A0

FWIW, I would not. I prefer to read it in my ordinary mail c= lient.

-Ekr
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Mon, 28 Jun 2021 23:35:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-846-gae3270f721-fm-ubox-20210617.004-gae3270f7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4cff6a1e-f81d-bd91-fd05-0fe9c89e5e35@network-heretics.com> References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <4cff6a1e-f81d-bd91-fd05-0fe9c89e5e35@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 13:35:21 +1000 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bbf9fa6228c84493a02f2facc0493cab Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?Updating_the_IETF_Discussion_List_Charte?= =?utf-8?q?r_=28was=3A_Fwd=3A_New_Version_Notification_for_draft-eggert-bc?= =?utf-8?q?p45bis-02=2Etxt=29?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 03:35:54 -0000 --bbf9fa6228c84493a02f2facc0493cab Content-Type: text/plain On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, at 07:48, Keith Moore wrote: > On 6/25/21 5:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. >>> >> I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can survive without the -announce list.) > I guess I find myself wondering whether the mailman-style subscription model is becoming obsolete, and what percentage of IETF participants who don't use the IMAP server (wish this were easy for everyone) would prefer to read IETF traffic via a webmail server hosted at IETF if one were provided. The whole process of subscribing to a new list anytime a conversation moves seems like a significant burden (particularly if you don't want all of your IETF mail to show up in your usual inbox), and it would be a lot less onerous if everyone could move to the new list with a simple click. > It's still rather slow for a variety of reasons - not really optimised for that many lists on the news page - but https://ietf.topicbox-scratch.com/ tracks pretty much every mailing list by polling the IMAP server. An interesting entry point might be https://ietf.topicbox-scratch.com/groups/gendispatch/T1b2bb28f15250377-M8b77ac097797624a866f4900/gendispatch-updating-the-ietf-discussion-list-charter-was-fwd-new-version-notification-for-draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02-txt - which links to this message that I'm replying to in this thread.** You can make it faster by logging in (you can use any email address - it will email you a code to login) and then subscribe to just the groups you want to see. Also, unfortunately, when I put this together a couple of years ago at the hackathon, I didn't find an easy way to get a listing of groups and descriptions, so it doesn't auto-create new groups when they get added to the IMAP server. I'll see what I can do about that at some point, because it would be nice to have the conference lists since IETF108! Bron. -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --bbf9fa6228c84493a02f2facc0493cab Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, at 07:48, Keith Moore wrote:

On 6/25/21 5:05= PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

-=
 [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have =
all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is n=
ot appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along th=
ese lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ =
should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. =
I.e., it's not just a 'preference'.

I find myself won=
dering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. In other words, =
people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list should be subsc=
ribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I still don't u=
nderstand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can survive wit=
hout the -announce list.)

I guess I find myself= wondering whether the mailman-style subscription model is becoming obsolete, and what percentage of IETF participants who don't use the IMAP server (wish this were easy for everyone) would prefer to read IETF traffic via a webmail server hosted at IETF if one were provided.   The whole = process of subscribing to a new list anytime a conversation moves seems like a significant burden (particularly if you don't want all of your IETF mail to show up in your usual inbox), and it would be a lot less onerous if everyone could move to the new list with a simple click.


<= /div>
It's still rather slow for a vari= ety of reasons - not really optimised for that many lists on the news pa= ge - but https://ietf.top= icbox-scratch.com/ tracks pretty much every mailing list by polling = the IMAP server.

An interesting entry point might be https://ietf.topicbox-scratch.com/groups/gendispatch/T1b2bb28f1= 5250377-M8b77ac097797624a866f4900/gendispatch-updating-the-ietf-discussi= on-list-charter-was-fwd-new-version-notification-for-draft-eggert-bcp45b= is-02-txt - which links to this message that I'm replying to in this= thread.

You can make it faster by logging in (you can= use any email address - it will email you a code to login) and then sub= scribe to just the groups you want to see.

Also, unfortun= ately, when I put this together a couple of years ago at the hackathon, = I didn't find an easy way to get a listing of groups and descriptions, s= o it doesn't auto-create new groups when they get added to the IMAP serv= er.  I'll see what I can do about that at some point, because it wo= uld be nice to have the conference lists since IETF108!

B= ron.

--
=   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com

--bbf9fa6228c84493a02f2facc0493cab--