On the campus where I work=2C there is a building b= uilt into a slope whose back entrance is on one level=2C and whose front en= trance (the one with the receptionist) is on another (higher) floor.
In such a building=2C it's not obvious whether "0" would be used for the = back entrance=2C or "-1"=2C or whether the front entrance would be "0" or "= +1".

Is there any text we can add that might make this more clear? =

>=3B From: br@brianrosen.net
>=3B Date: Wed=2C 1 Dec 201= 0 10:26:36 -0500
>=3B To: rbarnes@bbn.com
>=3B CC: geopriv@ietf.o= rg=3B trac@tools.ietf.org
>=3B Subject: Re: [Geopriv] [geopriv] rfc382= 5bis #41 (new): David Harrington's DISCUSS
>=3B
>=3B Please don'= t think that by saying "0" is the ground floor that you have made things de= finitive and interoperable.
>=3B
>=3B There are plenty of buildi= ngs that are constructed into a sloped site=2C such that it is not at all c= lear which floor is "ground".
>=3B
>=3B By having a numbering sy= stem that doesn't match anything else (signage=2C plans=2C local knowledge= =2C etc)=2C you pretty much guarantee that no one can actually use it.
&= gt=3B
>=3B I know that fire brigades often designate their main entra= nce floor 0 or 1=2C and count (up/down) from there=2C but they create a ref= erence that everyone understands=2C and they train their people to use thei= r convention.
>=3B
>=3B Absent a very detailed plan=2C and a wa= y to know for sure which floor is "ground"=2C you create a hard to use mech= anism that can have ambiguity.
>=3B
>=3B Brian
>=3B
>= =3B
>=3B On Dec 1=2C 2010=2C at 12:20 AM=2C Richard L. Barnes wrote:<= br>>=3B
>=3B >=3B Actually=2C while we're on this=2C there's anot= her contradiction lurking here:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On the o= ne hand=2C the option definitions say:
>=3B >=3B "Altitude: A 30 bi= t value defined by the AType field."
>=3B >=3B One might read this t= o mean that the AType value can specify the meaning of all the bits in the = field. So if I define AType=3D7=2C I could say that the the 30 bits contai= n a 3-character ASCII code describing the color of the carpet on the floor = in question (with each character padded to 10 bits=2C natch). More to the = point=2C for AType=3D2 (=3D=3Dfloors)=2C you might split the field into two= integers=2C one signed and one unsigned=2C that represent "major" and "min= or" floor numbers. That way=2C you could actually directly represent 1.1= =2C 4.1=2C 4.2.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On the other hand=2C Se= ction 2.4 defines the Altitude field as 22/8 fixed point regardless of the = AType value -- it's only the semantic of this number that changes. This ru= les out all of the creative encodings described above=2C at the cost of for= cing everything into a 22/8 fixed-point mold.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B= >=3B I'll leave it to the author to decide which of these to go with (I = don't think it really matters much). If it's the former=2C then the 22/8 f= ixed point thing should be moved down into the subsections of 2.4. If the = latter=2C then it should be moved up to the option definitions=2C as with t= he Latitude and Longitude fields.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B --Rich= ard
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B = On Nov 30=2C 2010=2C at 10:46 PM=2C geopriv issue tracker wrote:
>=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B #41: David Harrington's DISCUSS
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Comment(by berna= rd_aboba@=85):
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B [James Polk]<= br>>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B #41: David Harrington's D= ISCUSS Comment(by bernard_aboba at ?):
>=3B >=3B>=3B Proposed Reso= lution: In 2.2.1.2=2C s/same respoonse. This is not useful
>=3B >=3B= >=3B since/same response=2C since/ Replace Section 2.4.3 with the followi= ng:
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B A value of two for Al= titude Type indicates that the Altitude value is
>=3B >=3B>=3B = measured in floors. This value is relevant only in relation to a
>=3B= >=3B>=3B building=3B the value is relative to the ground level of t= he building.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B In this defi= nition=2C numbering starts at ground level=2C which is floor
>=3B >= =3B>=3B 0 regardless of local convention. Floors located below ground = level
>=3B >=3B>=3B could be represented by negative values.>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B I recommend a change to be def= initive here with
>=3B >=3B>=3B s/could be/are
>=3B >=3B>= =3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Larger values repres= ent floors
>=3B >=3B>=3B that are above (higher in altitude) fl= oors with lower values.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B This= sentence is written in one direction=3B i.e.=2C up.
>=3B >=3B>=3B=
>=3B >=3B>=3B I recommend
>=3B >=3B>=3B "Larger values= represent floors that are farther away from floor 0
>=3B >=3B>=3B= such that -
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B - if positi= ve=2C the floor value is farther above the ground floor.
>=3B >=3B&g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B - if negative=2C the floor value is farther = below the ground floor."
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Non-integer values can be used to represent interme= diate or sub-
>=3B >=3B>=3B floors=2C such as mezzanine levels.= Example: a
>=3B >=3B>=3B mezzanine between floor 1 and floor = 2 could be represented as a value
>=3B >=3B>=3B =3D 1.1. Examp= le: (2) mezzanines between floor 4 and floor 5 could be
>=3B >=3B>= =3B represented as values =3D 4.1 and 4.2 respectively.
>=3B >=3B= >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B I'm fine with the rest as written.
>=3B= >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B James
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>= =3B >=3B>=3B [Bernard Aboba]
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B&g= t=3B Here is a revised proposal for the text of Section 2.4.3:
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B 2.4.3. Altitude in Floors (AType =3D 2)=
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B A value of two for Altitu= de Type indicates that the Altitude value is
>=3B >=3B>=3B measu= red in floors. Since altitude in meters may not be known within
>=3B = >=3B>=3B a building=2C a floor indication may be more useful. This v= alue is
>=3B >=3B>=3B relevant only in relation to a building=3B= the value is relative to the
>=3B >=3B>=3B ground level of the = building.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Numbering starts= at ground level=2C which is floor 0 regardless of
>=3B >=3B>=3B = local convention. Floors located below ground level are represented
&g= t=3B >=3B>=3B by negative values. Larger values represent floors tha= t are farther
>=3B >=3B>=3B away from floor 0 such that:
>= =3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B - if positive=2C the floor va= lue is farther above the ground floor.
>=3B >=3B>=3B - if neg= ative=2C the floor value is farther below the ground floor.
>=3B >= =3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Non-integer values can be used to repre= sent intermediate or sub-
>=3B >=3B>=3B floors=2C such as mezzan= ine levels. Example: a mezzanine between floor
>=3B >=3B>=3B 1 = and floor 2 could be represented as a value of 1.1. Example:
>=3B >= =3B>=3B mezzanines between floor 4 and floor 5 could be represented as = values
>=3B >=3B>=3B of 4.1 and 4.2.
>=3B >=3B>=3B
= >=3B >=3B>=3B --
>=3B >=3B>=3B ----------------------------= -----------+------------------------------------
>=3B >=3B>=3B Rep= orter: bernard_aboba@=85 | Owner: bernard_aboba@=85 =
>=3B >=3B>=3B Type: defect | S= tatus: new
>=3B >=3B>=3B Priority: major = | Milestone: draft-ietf-geopriv-3825bis
>=3B &= gt=3B>=3B Component: rfc3825bis | Version: 1.0 =
>=3B >=3B>=3B Severity: Submitted WG Document = | Keywords:
>=3B >=3B>=3B ----= -----------------------------------+------------------------------------>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Ticket URL: <=3Bhttps://trac= .tools.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/trac/ticket/41#comment:3>=3B
>=3B >=3B&= gt=3B geopriv <=3Bhttp://tools.ietf.org/geopriv/>=3B
>=3B >=3B&g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B ______________________________________________= _
>=3B >=3B>=3B Geopriv mailing list
>=3B >=3B>=3B Geopri= v@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B>=3B https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geo= priv
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B ___________________________________= ____________
>=3B >=3B Geopriv mailing list
>=3B >=3B Geopriv= @ietf.org
>=3B >=3B https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv>=3B
>=3B _______________________________________________
>= =3B Geopriv mailing list
>=3B Geopriv@ietf.org
>=3B https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv

If you have a plan, in a = standardized form, which we don't, but if you did, then you could use = the notation on the plan.

Say that and it = works.

Brian

On Dec 1, = 2010, at 12:23 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:

On the campus where = I work, there is a building built into a slope whose back entrance is on = one level, and whose front entrance (the one with the receptionist) is = on another (higher) floor.

In such a building, = it's not obvious whether "0" would be used for the back entrance, or = "-1", or whether the front entrance would be "0" or "+1".

Is there any text = we can add that might make this more clear?

> From: br@brianrosen.net
> Date: = Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:26:36 -0500
> To: rbarnes@bbn.com
> CC: geopriv@ietf.org; trac@tools.ietf.org
> = Subject: Re: [Geopriv] [geopriv] rfc3825bis #41 (new): David = Harrington's DISCUSS
>
> Please don't think = that by saying "0" is the ground floor that you have made things = definitive and interoperable.
>
> There are plenty = of buildings that are constructed into a sloped site, such that it is = not at all clear which floor is "ground".
>
> By having a = numbering system that doesn't match anything else (signage, plans, local = knowledge, etc), you pretty much guarantee that no one can actually use = it.
>
> I = know that fire brigades often designate their main entrance floor 0 or = 1, and count (up/down) from there, but they create a reference that = everyone understands, and they train their people to use their = convention.
>
> Absent a very = detailed plan, and a way to know for sure which floor is "ground", you = create a hard to use mechanism that can have ambiguity.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Dec 1, 2010, at = 12:20 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote:
>
> > Actually, = while we're on this, there's another contradiction lurking here:
> = >
> > On = the one hand, the option definitions say:
> > "Altitude: A 30 = bit value defined by the AType field."
> > One might read this = to mean that the AType value can specify the meaning of all the bits in = the field. So if I define AType=3D7, I could say that the the 30 bits = contain a 3-character ASCII code describing the color of the carpet on = the floor in question (with each character padded to 10 bits, natch). = More to the point, for AType=3D2 (=3D=3Dfloors), you might split the = field into two integers, one signed and one unsigned, that represent = "major" and "minor" floor numbers. That way, you could actually directly = represent 1.1, 4.1, 4.2.
> >
> > On the other = hand, Section 2.4 defines the Altitude field as 22/8 fixed point = regardless of the AType value -- it's only the semantic of this number = that changes. This rules out all of the creative encodings described = above, at the cost of forcing everything into a 22/8 fixed-point = mold.
> = >
> > = I'll leave it to the author to decide which of these to go with (I don't = think it really matters much). If it's the former, then the 22/8 fixed = point thing should be moved down into the subsections of 2.4. If the = latter, then it should be moved up to the option definitions, as with = the Latitude and Longitude fields.
> >
> > = --Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 30, = 2010, at 10:46 PM, geopriv issue tracker wrote:
> >
> >> #41: = David Harrington's DISCUSS
> >>
> >>
> >> = Comment(by bernard_aboba@=85):
> >>
> >> [James = Polk]
> >>
> >> #41: = David Harrington's DISCUSS Comment(by bernard_aboba at ?):
> = >> Proposed Resolution: In 2.2.1.2, s/same respoonse. This is not = useful
> >> since/same response, since/ Replace Section = 2.4.3 with the following:
> >>
> >> A value = of two for Altitude Type indicates that the Altitude value is
> = >> measured in floors. This value is relevant only in relation to = a
> >> building; the value is relative to the ground level = of the building.
> >>
> >> In this = definition, numbering starts at ground level, which is floor
> = >> 0 regardless of local convention. Floors located below ground = level
> >> could be represented by negative values.
> = >>
> = >> I recommend a change to be definitive here with
> = >> s/could be/are
> >>
> >>
> >> Larger = values represent floors
> >> that are above (higher in = altitude) floors with lower values.
> >>
> >> This = sentence is written in one direction; i.e., up.
> >>
> >> I = recommend
> >> "Larger values represent floors that are = farther away from floor 0
> >> such that -
> = >>
> = >> - if positive, the floor value is farther above the ground = floor.
> >>
> >> - if = negative, the floor value is farther below the ground floor."
> = >>
> = >>
> = >> Non-integer values can be used to represent intermediate or = sub-
> >> floors, such as mezzanine levels. Example: = a
> >> mezzanine between floor 1 and floor 2 could be = represented as a value
> >> =3D 1.1. Example: (2) mezzanines = between floor 4 and floor 5 could be
> >> represented as = values =3D 4.1 and 4.2 respectively.
> >>
> >> I'm fine = with the rest as written.
> >>
> >> = James
> >>
> >> [Bernard = Aboba]
> >>
> >> Here is a = revised proposal for the text of Section 2.4.3:
> >>
> >> 2.4.3. = Altitude in Floors (AType =3D 2)
> >>
> >> A value = of two for Altitude Type indicates that the Altitude value is
> = >> measured in floors. Since altitude in meters may not be known = within
> >> a building, a floor indication may be more = useful. This value is
> >> relevant only in relation to a = building; the value is relative to the
> >> ground level of = the building.
> >>
> >> Numbering = starts at ground level, which is floor 0 regardless of
> >> = local convention. Floors located below ground level are = represented
> >> by negative values. Larger values represent = floors that are farther
> >> away from floor 0 such = that:
> >>
> >> - if = positive, the floor value is farther above the ground floor.
> = >> - if negative, the floor value is farther below the ground = floor.
> >>
> >> = Non-integer values can be used to represent intermediate or sub-
> = >> floors, such as mezzanine levels. Example: a mezzanine between = floor
> >> 1 and floor 2 could be represented as a value of = 1.1. Example:
> >> mezzanines between floor 4 and floor 5 = could be represented as values
> >> of 4.1 and 4.2.
> = >>
> = >> --
> = >> = ---------------------------------------+----------------------------------= --
> >> Reporter: bernard_aboba@=85 | Owner: = bernard_aboba@=85
> >> Type: = defect | Status: new
> >> Priority: = major | Milestone: draft-ietf-geopriv-3825bis
> >> = Component: rfc3825bis | Version: 1.0
> >> Severity: = Submitted WG Document | Keywords:
> >> = ---------------------------------------+----------------------------------= --
> >>
> >> Ticket = URL: <h= ttps://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/trac/ticket/41#comment:3>
= > >> geopriv <http://tools.ietf.org/geopriv/= >
> >>
> >> = _______________________________________________
> >> Geopriv = mailing list
> >> Geopriv@ietf.org
> = >> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> >
> > = _______________________________________________
> > Geopriv = mailing list
> > Geopriv@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>
> = _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing = list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/geopriv

2.4.3. =3B Altitude i= n Floors (AType =3D 2)

=3B =3B A value of two for Altitude = Type indicates that the Altitude value is
=3B =3B measured in f= loors. =3B Since altitude in meters may not be known within
=3B=  =3B a building=2C a floor indication may be more useful. =3B For A= Type =3D 2=2C
=3B =3B the Altitude value is expressed as a 30 b= it=2C fixed point=2C twos
=3B =3B complement integer with 22 in= teger bits and 8 fractional bits.

=3B =3B This value is rel= evant only in relation to a building=3B the value is
=3B =3B re= lative to the ground level of the building. =3B Floors located below =3B =3B ground level are represented by negative values. =3B = In some buildings
=3B =3B it might not be clear which floor is = at ground level or an
=3B =3B intermediate floor might be hard = to identify as such. =3B Determining
=3B =3B what floor is = at ground level and what constitutes a sub-floor as
=3B =3B opp= osed to an naturally numbered floor is left to local
=3B =3B in= terpretation.

=3B =3B Larger values represent floors that a= re farther away from floor 0
=3B =3B such that:

=3B=  =3B =3B =3B =3B - if positive=2C the floor value is farthe= r above the ground floor.
=3B =3B =3B =3B =3B - if = negative=2C the floor value is farther below the ground floor.

= =3B =3B Non-integer values can be used to represent intermediate or sub= -
=3B =3B floors=2C such as mezzanine levels. =3B Example: = a mezzanine between floor
=3B =3B 1 and floor 2 could be repres= ented as a value of 1.25. =3B Example:
=3B =3B mezzanines b= etween floor 4 and floor 5 could be represented as values
=3B = =3B of 4.5 and 4.75.

>=3B From: Martin.Thomson@andrew.com
&= gt=3B To: br@brianrosen.net=3B bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
>=3B CC: geop= riv@ietf.org
>=3B Date: Thu=2C 2 Dec 2010 05:47:47 +0800
>=3B Sub= ject: RE: [Geopriv] [geopriv] rfc3825bis #41 (new): David Harrington's DISC= USS
>=3B
>=3B This is all true. It derives from the fact that f= loor numbering is entirely nominal.
>=3B
>=3B The absence of a f= loor 13 and presence of mezzanines are just a few of the problems you might= encounter. In some buildings=2C floors aren't numbered at all.
>=3B =
>=3B But this doesn't really help the issue at hand. 3825 defined a = way to convey floor numbers=2C ill-conceived or not. We need to decide wha= t to do about that. As with any other aspect of protocol=2C we can say gro= und is 0=2C but we should also highlight the shortcomings of this conventio= n and state that local conventions dictate what is ground.
>=3B
&g= t=3B After all - it's local context that establishes what "ground" is anywa= y. I've been places where even that concept is fuzzy. It's the coward's w= ay out. The alternative would be to say that altitude in floors is a bad i= dea=2C but we've been over that discussion before.
>=3B
>=3B If = you need a text-patch for the problem=2C here's my suggestion.
>=3B >=3B In some buildings it might not be clear which floor is at grou= nd level
>=3B or an intermediate floor might be hard to identify a= s such. Determining
>=3B what floor is at ground level and what c= onstitutes a sub-floor as
>=3B opposed to an naturally numbered fl= oor is left to local interpretation.
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B On 201= 0-12-02 at 05:30:22=2C Brian Rosen wrote:
>=3B >=3B The only thing t= hat works is to use the local signage convention.
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B If you have a plan=2C in a standardized form=2C which we don't= =2C but if you
>=3B >=3B did=2C then you could use the notation on t= he plan.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Say that and it works.
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Brian
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B On De= c 1=2C 2010=2C at 12:23 PM=2C Bernard Aboba wrote:
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Agreed.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B On the campus where I work=2C there is a building built in= to a
>=3B >=3B slope whose back entrance is on one level=2C and whos= e front entrance
>=3B >=3B (the
>=3B >=3B one with the recept= ionist) is on another (higher) floor.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B I= n such a building=2C it's not obvious whether "0" would be used
>=3B &= gt=3B for the back entrance=2C or "-1"=2C or whether the front entrance wou= ld be
>=3B >=3B "0" or "+1".
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Is = there any text we can add that might make this more clear?
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B From: br@brianrosen.net
>= =3B >=3B >=3B Date: Wed=2C 1 Dec 2010 10:26:36 -0500
>=3B >=3B = >=3B To: rbarnes@bbn.com
>=3B >=3B >=3B CC: geopriv@ietf.org= =3B trac@tools.ietf.org
>=3B >=3B >=3B Subject: Re: [Geopriv] [ge= opriv] rfc3825bis #41 (new): David
>=3B >=3B Harrington's DISCUSS>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B Please don't think that by = saying "0" is the ground floor that
>=3B >=3B you have made things d= efinitive and interoperable.
>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >= =3B There are plenty of buildings that are constructed into a
>=3B >= =3B sloped site=2C such that it is not at all clear which floor is "ground"= .
>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B By having a numbering s= ystem that doesn't match anything else
>=3B >=3B (signage=2C plans= =2C local knowledge=2C etc)=2C you pretty much guarantee that
>=3B >= =3B no one can actually use it.
>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B = >=3B I know that fire brigades often designate their main entrance
>= =3B >=3B floor 0 or 1=2C and count (up/down) from there=2C but they creat= e a
>=3B >=3B reference that everyone understands=2C and they train = their people to use
>=3B >=3B their convention.
>=3B >=3B &g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B Absent a very detailed plan=2C and a way to k= now for sure which
>=3B >=3B floor is "ground"=2C you create a hard = to use mechanism that can have
>=3B >=3B ambiguity.
>=3B >=3B= >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B Brian
>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B = >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B On Dec 1=2C 2010=2C at 12:20 AM=2C = Richard L. Barnes wrote:
>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B = >=3B Actually=2C while we're on this=2C there's another contradiction
= >=3B >=3B lurking here:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B On the one hand=2C the option definitions say:
>=3B= >=3B >=3B >=3B "Altitude: A 30 bit value defined by the AType field= ."
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B One might read this to mean that the ATy= pe value can specify
>=3B >=3B the meaning of all the bits in the fi= eld. So if I define AType=3D7=2C I
>=3B >=3B could say that the the = 30 bits contain a 3-character ASCII code
>=3B >=3B describing the co= lor of the carpet on the floor in question (with each
>=3B >=3B char= acter padded to 10 bits=2C natch). More to the point=2C for AType=3D2
&g= t=3B >=3B (=3D=3Dfloors)=2C you might split the field into two integers= =2C one signed and
>=3B >=3B one unsigned=2C that represent "major" = and "minor" floor numbers. That
>=3B >=3B way=2C you could actually = directly represent 1.1=2C 4.1=2C 4.2.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
&g= t=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B On the other hand=2C Section 2.4 defines the Alt= itude field as
>=3B >=3B 22/8 fixed point regardless of the AType va= lue -- it's only the
>=3B >=3B semantic
>=3B >=3B of this num= ber that changes. This rules out all of the creative
>=3B >=3B encod= ings described above=2C at the cost of forcing everything into a
>=3B = >=3B 22/8
>=3B >=3B fixed-point mold.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B I'll leave it to the author to decide w= hich of these to go
>=3B >=3B with (I don't think it really matters = much). If it's the former=2C then
>=3B >=3B the 22/8 fixed point thi= ng should be moved down into the subsections of
>=3B >=3B 2.4. If th= e latter=2C then it should be moved up to the option
>=3B >=3B defin= itions=2C as with the Latitude and Longitude fields.
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B --Richard
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B<= br>>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B On Nov 30=2C 2010=2C at 10:46 PM=2C geopriv= issue tracker wrote:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B>=3B #41: David Harrington's DISCUSS
>=3B >=3B >=3B &= gt=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B = >=3B>=3B Comment(by bernard_aboba@=85):
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B= >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B [James Polk]
>=3B >=3B = >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B #41: David Harri= ngton's DISCUSS Comment(by bernard_aboba at
>=3B >=3B ?):
>=3B = >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Proposed Resolution: In 2.2.1.2=2C s/same respo= onse. This is
>=3B >=3B not useful
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B&g= t=3B since/same response=2C since/ Replace Section 2.4.3 with the
>=3B= >=3B following:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B = >=3B >=3B>=3B A value of two for Altitude Type indicates that the
= >=3B >=3B Altitude value is
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B measu= red in floors. This value is relevant only in relation
>=3B >=3B to = a
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B building=3B the value is relative t= o the ground level of the
>=3B >=3B building.
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B In this definition= =2C numbering starts at ground level=2C which
>=3B >=3B is floor
= >=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B 0 regardless of local convention. Floors= located below
>=3B >=3B ground level
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B>=3B could be represented by negative values.
>=3B >=3B >=3B= >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B I recommend a change to= be definitive here with
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B s/could be/a= re
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>= =3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Larger values represent floors>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B that are above (higher in altitude) flo= ors with lower
>=3B >=3B values.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>= =3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B This sentence is written in one d= irection=3B i.e.=2C up.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B>=3B I recommend
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B = "Larger values represent floors that are farther away from
>=3B >=3B= floor 0
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B such that -
>=3B >=3B= >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B - if positive= =2C the floor value is farther above the ground
>=3B >=3B floor.
= >=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B - = if negative=2C the floor value is farther below the ground
>=3B >=3B= floor."
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Non-integer values can be u= sed to represent intermediate or
>=3B >=3B sub-
>=3B >=3B &g= t=3B >=3B>=3B floors=2C such as mezzanine levels. Example: a
>=3B = >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B mezzanine between floor 1 and floor 2 could be = represented
>=3B >=3B as a value
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>= =3B =3D 1.1. Example: (2) mezzanines between floor 4 and floor 5
>=3B = >=3B could be
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B represented as values= =3D 4.1 and 4.2 respectively.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>= =3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B I'm fine with the rest as written.
>= =3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B James=
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>= =3B [Bernard Aboba]
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B = >=3B >=3B>=3B Here is a revised proposal for the text of Section 2.4= .3:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B&g= t=3B 2.4.3. Altitude in Floors (AType =3D 2)
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B A value of two for Altitude= Type indicates that the
>=3B >=3B Altitude value is
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B>=3B measured in floors. Since altitude in meters may n= ot be
>=3B >=3B known within
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B a= building=2C a floor indication may be more useful. This
>=3B >=3B v= alue is
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B relevant only in relation to = a building=3B the value is
>=3B >=3B relative to the
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B>=3B ground level of the building.
>=3B >=3B &g= t=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Numbering starts at= ground level=2C which is floor 0
>=3B >=3B regardless of
>=3B = >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B local convention. Floors located below ground l= evel are
>=3B >=3B represented
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B= by negative values. Larger values represent floors that are
>=3B >= =3B farther
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B away from floor 0 such th= at:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B&g= t=3B - if positive=2C the floor value is farther above the ground
>=3B= >=3B floor.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B - if negative=2C the f= loor value is farther below the ground
>=3B >=3B floor.
>=3B &g= t=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Non-integer= values can be used to represent intermediate or
>=3B >=3B sub-
&= gt=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B floors=2C such as mezzanine levels. Examp= le: a mezzanine
>=3B >=3B between floor
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B>=3B 1 and floor 2 could be represented as a value of 1.1.
>=3B &= gt=3B Example:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B mezzanines between flo= or 4 and floor 5 could be represented
>=3B >=3B as values
>=3B = >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B of 4.1 and 4.2.
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B= >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B --
>=3B >=3B >=3B &g= t=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B ---------------------------------------+-------= ------------------------
>=3B >=3B -
>=3B >=3B ----
>=3B= >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Reporter: bernard_aboba@=85 | Owner: bernard_a= boba@=85
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Type: defect | Status: new>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Priority: major | Milestone: draft-iet= f-geopriv-3825bis
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Component: rfc3825b= is | Version: 1.0
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Severity: Submitted= WG Document | Keywords:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B &g= t=3B ---------------------------------------+------------------------------= -
>=3B >=3B -
>=3B >=3B ----
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B&= gt=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Ticket URL:
>=3B >=3B &l= t=3Bhttps://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/trac/ticket/41#comment:3>=3B>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B geopriv <=3Bhttp://tools.ietf.org/ge= opriv/>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B= >=3B>=3B _______________________________________________
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Geopriv mailing list
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B>=3B Geopriv@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B >=3B >=3B _______________________________________________>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B Geopriv mailing list
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B Geopriv@ietf.org
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B &= gt=3B _______________________________________________
>=3B >=3B >= =3B Geopriv mailing list
>=3B >=3B >=3B Geopriv@ietf.org
>= =3B >=3B >=3B https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B
Bernard,

This text works for me.

-Marc-

=
Here's the revised text for Section 2.4.3:

2.4.3.  Altitude in = Floors (AType =3D 2)

A value of two for Altitude Type indi= cates that the Altitude value is
measured in floors.  S= ince altitude in meters may not be known within
a building, = a floor indication may be more useful.  For AType =3D 2,
= the Altitude value is expressed as a 30 bit, fixed point, twos
&nbs= p; complement integer with 22 integer bits and 8 fractional bits.

&nb= sp;  This value is relevant only in relation to a building; the value i= s
relative to the ground level of the building.  Floors= located below
ground level are represented by negative valu= es.  In some buildings
it might not be clear which floo= r is at ground level or an
intermediate floor might be hard = to identify as such.  Determining
what floor is at grou= nd level and what constitutes a sub-floor as
opposed to an n= aturally numbered floor is left to local
interpretation.
=
Larger values represent floors that are farther away from f= loor 0
such that:

- if= positive, the floor value is farther above the ground floor.
= ;    - if negative, the floor value is farther below the grou= nd floor.

Non-integer values can be used to represent in= termediate or sub-
floors, such as mezzanine levels.  E= xample: a mezzanine between floor
1 and floor 2 could be rep= resented as a value of 1.25.  Example:
mezzanines betwe= en floor 4 and floor 5 could be represented as values
of 4.5= and 4.75.

&= gt=3B CC: rjsparks@nostrum.com=3B rbarnes@bbn.com=3B martin.thomson@andrew.= com=3B jmpolk@cisco.com
>=3B From: rdroms.ietf@gmail.com
>=3B Sub= ject: Re: 3825bis shepherd question
>=3B Date: Fri=2C 3 Dec 2010 14:20= :25 -0500
>=3B To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com
>=3B
>=3B Bern= ard - there is an implicit question: is there any advantage to reusing the = existing code? I don't see any advantage (except for option code convserva= tion) and the backward-compatibility issues with reuse are significant.
= >=3B
>=3B - Ralph
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B On Dec= 3=2C 2010=2C at 1:28 PM=2C Bernard Aboba <=3Bbernard_aboba@hotmail.com&g= t=3B wrote:
>=3B
>=3B >=3B The main question that Ralph has ra= ised is the strategy for backward compatibility with RFC 3825.
>=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B When I took on the editorship of the draft=2C it w= as my understanding that the GEOPRIV WG had made a decision on how to handl= e that=2C
>=3B >=3B and so I concentrated on attempting to explain t= he consequences of the approach (Section 2.2.1).
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B I believe that an underlying assumption of the approach is that = in many situations=2C only one version of the DHCPv4 option will be in use<= br>>=3B >=3B at a given site=2C or that if more than version is deploye= d=2C that the clients supporting v0 versus v1 can be easily distinguished= =2C such as by
>=3B >=3B subnet or the vendor OUI within the MAC add= ress.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B As Ralph points out=2C in a site = where both v0 and v1 clients are deployed=2C that the issues pointed out in= Section 2.2.1 could become
>=3B >=3B cumbersome=2C and that allocat= ing a separate option could avoid this. The likelihood of this depends on= the current and potential
>=3B >=3B future deployment of RFC 3825. =
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B From: = Alissa Cooper <=3Bacooper@cdt.org>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B Da= te: December 3=2C 2010 12:27:08 PM GMT
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B To: R= obert Sparks <=3Brjsparks@nostrum.com>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >= =3B Cc: Ralph Droms <=3Brdroms.ietf@gmail.com>=3B=2C Richard Barnes <= =3Brbarnes@bbn.com
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B=2C Bernard Aboba = <=3Bbernarda@microsoft.com>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B Subject: = Re: 3825bis shepherd question
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B I do not believe there was a further review from the DHC = WG. But
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B Richard is the shepherd and Bernar= d is the editor (both cc'ed here)=2C
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B so per= haps one of them can give you a definitive answer.
>=3B >=3B >=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B Alissa
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B On Dec 2=2C 2010=2C at 7:48 PM=2C Robert Sp= arks wrote:
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B&g= t=3B Hi Alissa -
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B>=3B Ralph asked during the call today about the level of revie= w this
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B document
>=3B >=3B >= =3B >=3B>=3B has had from DHC. I see this in the proto writeup:
>= =3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B ---
= >=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B I do not believe that this document requi= res any special review. It
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B might benef= it from a review by the DHC working group=2C but I do not
>=3B >=3B = >=3B >=3B>=3B view this as necessary=2C given that the focus of this = document is
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B clarifying the semantics o= f an existing DHCP option. The changes that
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B&= gt=3B it does make are mainly semantic=3B they do not change the wire forma= t
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B of the option. The most significant = change is that it extends the
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B current = DHCPv4 option to DHCPv6=2C with essentially the same format.
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B>=3B ---
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B = >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Was there any review after the writeup was submi= tted?
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Ralph noted that the wire format= does actually change...
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >= =3B >=3B >=3B>=3B Thanks=2C
>=3B >=3B >=3B >=3B>=3B RjS<= br>>=3B >=3B

Here ar= e the potential choices for moving forward:

a. Continue to use a sin= gle option code for both versions 0 and 1. =3B In this approach the doc= ument would be left more or less as it is=2C but additional material would = be added to the discussion of backward compatibility in Section 2.2.1 to ex= plain why the WG took this approach.

b. Allocate a new option code f= or the version 1 format=2C leave material on the original option in the doc= ument. =3B In this approach=2C the document would continue to revise RF= C 3825=2C but would also define new DHCPv4 and DHCPv6 options. =3B Whil= e this approach would be consistent with the GEOPRIV WG charter (which desc= ribes the goal of the work item as "to obsolete 3825")=2C it is not clear w= hether there would be enough clarifications/revisions to RFC 3825 material = to justify keeping that material in it. =3B

c. Allocate new DHC= Pv4 and DHCPv6 option codes for the new format=2C but remove material relat= ing to the original RFC 3825 format. =3B This approach would define new= option codes=2C but would remove discussion of option code 123. =3B Su= ch a document would probably be quite a bit shorter=2C since material relat= ing to backward compatibility could be removed. =3B

One questio= n relating to this approach would be whether the new document would obsolet= e RFC 3825 or not. =3B Since the GEOPRIV WG charter lists the work item= as "Submit an draft for=20 DHCP geodetic location to the IESG for publication as PS to obsolete=20 3825" =3B if the new document did not obsolete RFC 3825 then a charter = change would seem to be required.
I am sure this group is aware of the TCS patent. Pretty irksome = given that=20 PIDF, LO, PIDF-LO, SUPL and so forth are all open, freely available = standards.=20 To use an open standard and then patent an idea about how to use an open = standard. Give me a break. In all my years in the geospatial industry, I = have=20 never seen anything like this. Even more irksome given that the LO is = totally=20 generic and application neutral. Also, in the GIS/geotagging community = there is=20 I suspect significant prior art.

http://www.paten= tgenius.com/patent/7805483.html

The format of the Presence Information Data Format--Location Object = (PIDF-LO) as defined by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) is = extended=20 or modified to accommodate, within the standard PIDF-LO format, an = association=20 of geospatial location to virtual content on the Internet. A filename of = virtual=20 content is associated with geospatial location information (either a = specific=20 location, zone, or direction). The filename is inserted into a = <presence . .=20 . > section of a Presence Information Data Format-Location Object = (PIDF-LO)=20 compliant document as defined by the Internet Engineering Task Force = (IETF). In=20 this way, geospatial location information is associated with Internet = based=20 virtual content using a standard PIDF-LO format.

Regards

Carl Reed, PhD
CTO and Executive Director Specification = Program
Open=20 Geospatial Consortium
www.opengeospatial.org

The OGC: Making Location Count!

---------------------

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use = of=20 addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged = information.=20 If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure,=20 dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please notify the sender  immediately by return = email=20 and delete this communication and destroy all copies.

"The important thing is not to stop questioning." -- Albert = Einstein=20
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature. = Life is=20 either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller =
2011 should be an interesting year in terms of privacy, tracking, = rules,=20 and location.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article= /2010/12/28/AR2010122803648.html
http://apb.directionsmag.com/archi= ves/9186-MAPPS-FTC-Plan-Will-Shut-Down-the-Geospatial-Community.html<= /DIV>

=

Carl Reed, PhD
CTO and Executive Director Specification = Program
Open=20 Geospatial Consortium
www.opengeospatial.org

The OGC: Making Location Count!

---------------------

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use = of=20 addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged = information.=20 If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure,=20 dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the = intended recipient, please notify the sender  immediately by return = email=20 and delete this communication and destroy all copies.

"The important thing is not to stop questioning." -- Albert = Einstein=20
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature. = Life is=20 either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller =
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