Subject: [hybi] Issue tracker openness

From: Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:58:22 -0700

Currently, only a subset of people have access to open a new issue on the
issue tracker. I personally find the issue tracker a very nice tool to use
so that we don't lose track of things, especially when it comes to requests
like "Please merge X to Y" or "Please add the following text to the spec".
Would anyone be opposed to opening up the issue tracker such that anyone can
file new issues?

-Ian

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From: Willy Tarreau <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:19:57 +0200

> Would anyone be opposed to opening up the issue tracker such that anyone can

While it may be useful, it could also end up as we sometimes see on some
issue trackers, where discussions only happen there instead of on the list.
The advantage of the list is that people must defend their arguments.
Sometimes it may become tempting to open a bug when you feel like nobody
understands your concerns on the list.

So I'm not completely convinced by the of advantages vs drawbacks.

Regards,
Willy

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From: Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:24:20 -0700

> So I'm not completely convinced by the of advantages vs drawbacks.
I don't think that opening an issue obviates you of the requirement to
defend your arguments. It's possible that some discussion may move from the
list to the issue tracker, and whether that's desirable is an open question
(that we could perhaps try to correct for), but I don't see why the fact
that the discussion is happening on an issue would mean that there is a
lower bar to meet in terms of justification. Frankly, in all the projects
I've ever worked on, having an open bug tracker where discussion happens on
that bug tracker makes the discussion much easier to follow.

-Ian

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From: Willy Tarreau <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:40:39 +0200

> that bug tracker makes the discussion much easier to follow.

In my opinion, that works fine for chasing bugs in software with just a
handful of persons. But when discussions take part on the bug tracker,
other WG participants don't even notice them. I think we all read more
or less all the mails exchanged on the ML, but we won't actively check
all open bugs to see if something interesting has been said. That's what
I'm afraid of.

But maybe we should try. The WG is not very large, it should not be hard
to send a reminder once in a while when there are too many deviations
from good practices, and I agree that it can help getting some issues
fixed quicker.

Willy

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From: Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 11:44:31 -0700

I also don't mind if someone (chairs/secretary/etc) want to send stern
reminders if a particular bug turns into the level of discussion that would
be more appropriate for the mailing list.

I'm flexible, but I really want to see two things:

1. We've talked about an issue a bit on the list, there is text that people
seem to be happy with. Dump it in an issue. That way, I as editor don't lose
it, and I also don't have to hunt around to see if anyone objected to the
text. If you object do so on the bug, and then we have a clear central place
where it's obvious if something is good to go or not.
2. We find something out, but don't really come to conclusion. Someone feels
that although we haven't resolved it, we shouldn't lose sight of it. Open an
issue so we don't forget it. Handshake issue re: reverse proxies as an
example.

I'd like to think we can make it work. If it doesn't work out, it's easy
enough to go back.

-Ian

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Willy Tarreau <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > > > issue tracker. I personally find the issue tracker a very nice tool
> to
> > > use
> > > > Would anyone be opposed to opening up the issue tracker such that
> anyone
> > > can
> > > > file new issues?
> > >

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From: Willy Tarreau <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:13:39 +0200

> I'd like to think we can make it work. If it doesn't work out, it's easy

Indeed, I think your examples clearly justify what you're asking for.
Let's see how that works.

Willy

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From: S Moonesamy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:33:24 -0700

At 11:44 06-10-10, Ian wrote:
>I also don't mind if someone (chairs/secretary/etc) want to send 
>stern reminders if a particular bug turns into the level of 
>discussion that would be more appropriate for the mailing list.

I usually send a note if the WG Chairs ask for it or in response to a 
request from a participant.

There was a WG discussion last year about how to use the tracker for 
WG work.  It was decided that the WG Chairs would manage the 
tracker.  If the WG wants that changed, I'll have to ask the WG 
Chairs about it.

When an issue or comment is entered in the tracker, a message is sent 
to this mailing list.  One problem is that these messages are not 
threaded correctly ( 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/threads.html ).

An important aspect of IETF discussions carried out over email is 
that the messages get archived.  The archive will remain publicly 
accessible even after the working group has completed its work.  That 
may not always be true for information in the tracker.

I'm fine with whatever option the WG prefers as long as the IETF 
Contribution [1] gets into the mailing list archive.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
HyBi WG Secretary

1. http://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html

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From: Maciej Stachowiak <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 00:34:48 -0700

On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) wrote:

> I don't think that opening an issue obviates you of the requirement to defend your arguments. It's possible that some discussion may move from the list to the issue tracker, and whether that's desirable is an open question (that we could perhaps try to correct for), but I don't see why the fact that the discussion is happening on an issue would mean that there is a lower bar to meet in terms of justification. Frankly, in all the projects I've ever worked on, having an open bug tracker where discussion happens on that bug tracker makes the discussion much easier to follow.

I have had positive experiences with open access to issue/bug trackers for both software projects and standards projects. Allowing anyone to track an issues seems to significantly reduce the risk of comments getting overlooked. It does take some social norms and monitoring to avoid bad patterns, but then, so does a mailing list. It also works much better, in my opinion, for simple editorial comments or reports of trivial errors - it is highly desirable to have those tracked more formally than just email, but not worth the time of the Chairs to enter each one in the tracker, or of the WG to discuss each one in detail.

It seems not to be the norm in the IETF community to let anyone raise issues, but perhaps it would be worth an experiment in this WG.

Regards,
Maciej