Subject: Re: [INDEP] Re: [IAOC] Re: RFC Editor RFP Review Request

From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:26:18 -0400

Joe,

What you say might have been true up until say the mid 1980s, but
today, it's hard to defend that statement.  For many years the vast
majority of RFCs have been produced by IETF either from working groups
or individual submissions.  Several other RFCs that have been
published - e.g. documents authored by other standards organizations
and by vendors - have resulted from the association of the RFC series
with IETF and with IETF-produced documents.

Yes, we've always maintained that RFC editor and IETF are independent
functions, and there are reasons for still maintaining that
separation.  But it's not as if the RFC series would have significant
currency today if the IETF documents somehow disappeared from that
series.  

To me it makes more sense to think of IETF and the RFC Editor having a
symbiotic relationship that allows them to collaborate in furtherance
of their mutual goals, than to think of them as entirely independent
or (worse) competing with each other for public favor.

Keith

> The term RFC is one the IETF is getting a free ride on.
> 
> RFCs core to the Internet itself were independent, pre-IETF submissions.
> It is THEY that establish the utility of the series, not the IETF.

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From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 09:39:18 -0700

Keith Moore wrote:
> or individual submissions.

That vast number does not establish the credibility of the series; the
original ones do. Congestion control originated in a Sigcomm paper, not
the IETF. At the end of the day, it is the IETF that is, IMO, expendable.

(Joe wrote:)

---

From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:00:09 -0400

> original ones do. 

disagree.  the value of the RFC series is that most of the important
technical specifications for the Internet (below the apps layer,
anyway) can be found there.  if the RFC series only contained the 
original TCP, UDP, and IP specs, those documents would still be 
valuable, but the series would not be nearly as valuable as it is today.

> Congestion control originated in a Sigcomm paper, not

at the end of the day, we will all be dust, and everything we have
produced will have been diffused to the point that those remaining
will be unable to reliably tell who did what.   to the extent our lives
have any value, it's probably not enhanced by our expending energy
trying to pin down such things.

Keith

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From: "todd glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:22:29 -0700

Err uh Keith - No...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Moore" <[email-masked]>
To: "Joe Touch" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>;
<[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>;
<[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [INDEP] Re: [IAOC] Re: RFC Editor RFP Review Request

> valuable, but the series would not be nearly as valuable as it is today.

Uh yeah - after the fact that is... By the way - how valuable do you think
the series is? By the way this was about Credibility and you spun that into
Value - nice - but not the issue. As to the Credibility of the RFC's that is
tied to the RFC's process - which sucks at best IMHO. The value is a
different issue totally. Nice try.

> will be unable to reliably tell who did what.

That's becuase of the process - not because of "how things are"... sorry. If
the IETF had its act together this wouldnt be true.

>  to the extent our lives

Wow - so now this is about Life Value - where do you draw the line?

> Ietf mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

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From: "Yaakov Stein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:41:10 +0200

> original ones do.

IP, TCP, UDP, etc would not cease to be used 
if either the IETF or the RFC editor disappeared,
or even if their original RFCs forgotten.

The main importance of the RFC series is the 
demonstration of continuity
from the early roots and the present IETF work. 

The "credibility" of the original standards (not the "series") is
important,
but were there a gap between then and now, 
the series would be rendered useless.

Y(J)S