From nobody Wed Feb 3 04:49:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E742B3A0BC7; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 04:49:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yqXqlRjIUOQO; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 04:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 811983A0BCC; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 04:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id d16so24087187wro.11; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 04:49:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=kQN+6JSV3+w5/x7A0+uUQVQHqiT7NVGqfjuXARUp+go=; b=TJicfw3ptWVqFpcOrWC3aJGslV426+tABo1qfBr/42DXFI+xagFK9GhpP5H6toUX8h iaTacV0TuoJ/hCOaL57BCNV5HII4DY8lx7DAYtBRJ4Qm1yZ/53mxr/RlrKsi0pxx4rOO 981tqnCZ6pBfzqnA6w9259uImzuMvuWU3+kLOut6h4wagRIaO5/kI6z3gGT/GIpzuIui P4G4ajRVEGk9N4UcuTsmYAcE+p21vqqRl3xj4zX2Uf4KKBY6at3l2XQPe6qcAw34+XiT qJtuSpti81terFqmycJXTsFz2+5Qw0+dPj3zOruWtbMXQL3M269MmEFXem12n2jvNo6u welg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=kQN+6JSV3+w5/x7A0+uUQVQHqiT7NVGqfjuXARUp+go=; b=Ti1ESI2ejfQ/r20lTYWaLaI9rtH4NEUXBsr1NPFL964wAR9ewqKmrX7TkYK5YwXqtN 2moVJVpMHJWmlkaHZCxsThKFMncjhmWbjOix1Lk9TI+LrtMn36cTWgHtPLraKbKy3KEX fIB6/W9ctbSvUC/wbOixhfpUZopB9Lo24CJP5ceYAa7lh7TjqK8Mw26t0EduqckA7KFg 1JvCnsLSAb6XDNv3g3qbB3YOzlnjr2JrfvwzCkPuqEIeD5g/H06u3zuFT0JBBmeznaSw +WCGMTTuo0Hb7YVpv/uki6CIXkvdRf21Ybv41/0sZMTY8M0GkhhgNALI+zvllguUjdr7 uIBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/hJrhCKdcxBvqbVqNYQgqvBOTXnwfHQehZm+s9LkLMcfN4J1B GKUHcv4d1+0iDU3HmT5df2lA4mFLlUCxGA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz21xiQzqmF/MaHJBFpv+xozuQXNzXBnwBFZGoaVQNdpMlmZgE9ygvZfMY5XqkVPQhMhsep2w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:234:: with SMTP id l20mr3354531wrz.212.1612356581863; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 04:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:791e:1b4e:f095:65e3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z1sm3690154wru.70.2021.02.03.04.49.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Feb 2021 04:49:41 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A6EDA01E-8500-45FA-A531-2C1E77B09536" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:49:40 +0000 To: draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org, draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org, flexip@ietf.org, int-area X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Using ISO8473 as a network layer to carry flexible addresses X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 12:49:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A6EDA01E-8500-45FA-A531-2C1E77B09536 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Re drafts: =20 = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-stru= cture/ = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ = Since the authors are interested in network layer protocols that support = multiple address types and multiple address lengths, I wonder if they = have considered using ISO8473 as the bearer and developing that to their = needs? ISO 8473 is also known as ITU X233 (it costs money to download from ISO, = but seems to be free from the ITU-T site). It is an in force and = actually well deployed network layer protocol with many similar = characteristics to IPv6. The reason that it is deployed is that it is = used to support SS7. It also has a very widely deployed link-state IGP = since IS-IS was developed to support ISO8474 and later adapted to = support IP late run its life.=20 It was one of the contenders for IPv4 replacement, and so there RFCs = that authors may study: RFC994 is a copy of the late version of the spec = in RFC format. Then there is RFC1195 where Ross Callon shows how it = works in an IETF environment carrying IETF transport protocols and this = eventually became RFC1347 (TUBA), which whilst whilst marked Historic in = the IETF RFC collection is almost certainly still implementable since = the base network layer protocol is still an active standard. It would need some work to determine the applicability of the protocol = to your application and the feasibility of adding the necessary new = address types (due to crowding of the existing address registry) and any = other extensions that you might need. Note BTW that it supports source routing functionality and so ought to = be usable in an SR environment should that be needed. There would also need to be work to see how feasible it would be to = implement in a modern NPU, though having implemented it in a hardware = assisted microcode platform that is quite similar to a modern NPU back = in the 90s and having got quite creditable performance I think it is = feasible to run this on modern hardware including repurposing the = existing longest match engine to look up a number of your new address = formats.=20 There are a bunch of specs here for your convenience although I have not = studied the list in detail http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/protocol/clnp.htm Best regards Stewart --Apple-Mail=_A6EDA01E-8500-45FA-A531-2C1E77B09536 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Re drafts:
 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-a=
ddress-structure/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-stru=
cture/
Since the authors are interested in network layer =
protocols that support multiple address types and multiple address =
lengths, I wonder if they have considered using ISO8473 as the bearer =
and developing that to their needs?
ISO 8473 is also known as =
ITU X233 (it costs money to download from ISO, but seems to be free from =
the ITU-T site). It is an in force and actually well deployed network =
layer protocol with many similar characteristics to IPv6. The reason =
that it is deployed is that it is used to support SS7. It also has a =
very widely deployed link-state IGP since IS-IS was developed to support =
ISO8474 and later adapted to support IP late run its life. =
It was one of the contenders for IPv4 replacement, and so there RFCs that authors may study: RFC994 =
is a copy of the late version of the spec in RFC format. Then there is =
RFC1195 where Ross Callon shows how it works in an IETF environment =
carrying IETF transport protocols and this eventually became RFC1347 =
(TUBA), which whilst whilst marked Historic in the IETF RFC collection =
is almost certainly still implementable since the base network layer =
protocol is still an active standard.
It would need some work to =
determine the applicability of the protocol to your application and the =
feasibility of adding the necessary new address types (due to crowding =
of the existing address registry) and any other extensions that you =
might need.
Note BTW that it supports source routing =
functionality and so ought to be usable in an SR environment should that =
be needed.
There would also need to be work to see how feasible it would =
be to implement in a modern NPU, though having implemented it in a =
hardware assisted microcode platform that is quite similar to a modern =
NPU back in the 90s and having got quite creditable performance I think =
it is feasible to run this on modern hardware including repurposing the =
existing longest match engine to look up a number of your new address =
formats. 
There are a bunch of specs here for your =
convenience although I have not studied the list in =
detail
http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/protocol/clnp.htm<=
/font>
Best regards
Stewart




= --Apple-Mail=_A6EDA01E-8500-45FA-A531-2C1E77B09536-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 06:08:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CD53A0BDE; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 06:08:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qx4IxvFArOzr; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 06:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9293F3A0B5A; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 06:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id c127so5342629wmf.5; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 06:08:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=VU46ddGpXbk00M/PGFupOITaN91H9Ulhulxvo/BpKco=; b=CS51AO+LgxIWDNUxTdFvnxhrHV4eWd+e9v5+sycLjfmju1S+qefEOQ83ORgXTJ0Ci5 WWyPLFR7mKGz28BAa46x6bPjRXl9Oz8uaYoOwfUPjA+cEOnMxbH+fNPve/6x/+MZq3vs sTlh9TgByBfg6EMPccB7/cvgntehYKdN9BwzSMlaiLs3KQgdi+jqhXNfM/WsQ7R2QVLu /Bo5iKsA0wKHjdGe4Ka7Gn3NMIxTqWjQH9+M4hq0qyyz77YpC7JNrmz3tJ2aEex4BTsO mVeoIPhFPAC0LN3iLeH42wnOnis3b+nhr3bydy5Nb27JYPduMDJwORHz7dLx9ZUDzzkA j1AQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=VU46ddGpXbk00M/PGFupOITaN91H9Ulhulxvo/BpKco=; b=PcsAN4WTYPkSFLJBVDKND9P5fQXdP8zGADWSq9tLyaMHUXCcqLkAm68g2DZ+mYLNow 3J2E6c+N+0nbLMaOeBmxTi1eNgJNkFKjtaeFgNXuE/Cy3/T1M/FBnSlRiIpKlW6cjPGk nhLQdf/HrjRIDgfK171Xs1EmR0ndh/7QsgMd9544cGFU8EGdJV6hWvm9U3jju9zm3tGg Q8+ZVO2kuffkajwzS2OrmWD1hTnLt+Vv6ykt9a30UnPxCQejvTuU/Nu+ftYeffmAFfww x3EPvxCeBDxMxpkNH+8p+tJwzUCKTAT3zgZnrcKaRcmPyWyunsKhH9KjqrD751IcnJ5m X24w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330auMUOQSZcw46ukKsVt8wfGn9fA37vDBwTFc92xN6lpY1XaTh SZ1o2WLpYVIL3kXkMiCdmXJcTMqZ5rbGTg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxw5YBAgjJvENuRi1G66TjPgi+9lAwWdMK7DuvLrWp6DmZVNmSwE6WC+5GmaJh3fY8p40WeA== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:32c4:: with SMTP id y187mr3036808wmy.120.1612361320725; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 06:08:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:791e:1b4e:f095:65e3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t197sm13127457wmt.3.2021.02.03.06.08.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Feb 2021 06:08:40 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FC2C6DE1-03FE-44CA-B6E5-9BAB15CBB61D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <051CE5FA-BDCB-4BA3-BE19-2C6FF995AC04@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 14:08:37 +0000 To: draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org, draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org, flexip@ietf.org, int-area X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 14:08:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FC2C6DE1-03FE-44CA-B6E5-9BAB15CBB61D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 =20 Re drafts: =20 = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-stru= cture/ = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ = I have a number of comments these drafts, but in this email I would like = to focus on the small address proposal. By this I mean addresses that = are shorter than 64bits. =20 It seems to me that there are 3 operational reasons for small addresses: =20 1) That you might be worried about the amount of packet taken up by the = addresses. =20 2) That you might be worried about the amount of energy required to send = a packet. =20 3) That you want to use an address that is somehow native to a legacy = application. =E2=80=A6 and there are at least to implementation reasons: 4) That you might be worried about the amount of memory in the FIB. =20 5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB hardware.=20 =20 There are two approaches to the case of addresses that are are = relatively short, where for the purposes of this discussion I define = =E2=80=9Crelatively short=E2=80=9D as an address between 8 and 64 bits = in length. One approach is to design and implement a new packet type, be that an = original design, or the repurposing of a suitable existing non-IP = design. If that is what you have in mind it would greatly assist = consideration of your work if you published that design in the IETF, or = at least pointed to it as an accessible document. That would allow us to = debate the properties of the packet and or your address proposal in the = context of the packet design. An alternative approach which needs to be = considered is to make the FlexIP address a suffix of an existing and = well known address type such as IPv6. In such a case by standardising = the corresponding IPv6 prefix you may produce implementation = simplifications, or alternatively by making it a prefix well known in = the domain you construct quite an effective leakage prevention = mechanism. Consider the IPv6 suffix case. Validating a well-know prefix before = invoking the address lookup machinery is a simple efficient process = using either one of more compare operators, or some hw technique such as = a special register. Certainly we could build hw to look up a small set = of well-known prefixes that burns a lot less energy than used in a full = address lookup. So that brings us to looking up the suffix and, by = definition the table used to do that is small. In other words most of the efficiency of doing a short address lookup = can be maintained even if the address is the suffix of a longer address = provided that the implementation is optimised for this case. =20 I think that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. This applies = to your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose address design. =20 In your F5 case a longest match engine will work by definition on a = variable length address, provided it is short enough that sufficient = addresses from the primary address space can be deployed to this. Note = that you can throw the address length into the longest match engine if = you wish and it will simply consume it and if correctly programmed will = return the correct result. Thus any of the address definitions that do = not contain discontinuous substructure such as the cases with inbuilt = segment routing can be looked up in a common hardware address = recognition engine without analysis of the first byte. =20 Now I think that it is worth looking at case 1 and 2 above and noting = there is some applicability to both the short address cases and the = segment routing case with short addresses that you propose. =20 Of course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis these cases = because the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used with is not = referenced by the drafts. =20 Let us assume a tiny packet: =20 14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14) 8B of UDP 2B of payload =20 That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses plus the overhead) =20 Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimalist for a connectionless packet = apart from the size of its addresses. =20 IPv6 is 40B=20 =20 So total of 64B for the packet which is the benchmark since it is the = IETF plan of record for most applications. =20 If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these drafts) i.e. = subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B.=20 =20 That is a useful saving 47% which might be important in some specialist = applications where bandwidth or radio energy was important, however = much depends on what the practical size of the payload in, and what = options or extensions are in the packet to fulfil the communications = needs. So for example if I were to need an additional 20B of packet = option and payload the saving is reduced to 36% reducing to 20% saving = if 100B were needed. A 20% saving is not worth the cost and complexity = of changing the packet. =20 So, to understand the benefit of reducing the address size and = presumably using it in an as yet undefined packet format it is necessary = for the authors to describe the application for small standalone = addresses (as opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more detail than is = provided in the scenarios document, in particular the size of the = transport layer, and the size of the expected payload. Additionally it = is necessary that they describe the details of the network layer packet = and its MAC environment. =20 Once more detail is know, we will know whether there is a case for small = native addresses or whether we should focus our attention on how to map = such addresses as suffixes of a larger well known address type such as = IPv6. =20 - Stewart= --Apple-Mail=_FC2C6DE1-03FE-44CA-B6E5-9BAB15CBB61D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
 
Re = drafts:
 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-a=
ddress-structure/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-stru=
cture/
I have a number of comments these drafts, but in = this email I would like to focus on the small address proposal. By this = I mean addresses that are shorter than 64bits.
 
It seems to me that there are 3 = operational reasons for small addresses:
 
1) = That you might be worried about the amount of packet taken up by the = addresses.
 
2) That you might be worried about the = amount of energy required to send a packet.
 
3) = That you want to use an address that is somehow native to a legacy = application.

=E2=80=A6 = and there are at least to implementation reasons:

4) That you = might be worried about the amount of memory in the FIB.
 
5) = That you might wish to optimise out the FIB = hardware. 
 
There = are two approaches to the case of addresses that are are relatively = short, where for the purposes of this discussion I define =E2=80=9Crelativ= ely short=E2=80=9D as an address between 8 and 64 bits in = length.

One approach is to design and implement a new = packet type, be that an original design, or the repurposing of a = suitable existing non-IP design. If that is what you have in mind it = would greatly assist consideration of your work if you published that = design in the IETF, or at least pointed to it as an accessible document. = That would allow us to debate the properties of the packet and or your = address proposal in the context of the packet design. An alternative = approach which needs to be considered is to make the FlexIP address a = suffix of an existing and well known address type such as IPv6. In such = a case by standardising the corresponding IPv6 prefix you may produce = implementation simplifications, or alternatively by making it a prefix = well known in the domain you construct quite an effective leakage = prevention mechanism.

Consider the IPv6 suffix = case. Validating a = well-know prefix before invoking the address lookup machinery is a = simple efficient process using either one of more compare operators, or = some hw technique such as a special register. Certainly we could build = hw to look up a small set of well-known prefixes that burns a lot less = energy than used in a full address lookup. So that brings us to looking = up the suffix and, by definition the table used to do that is = small.
In other = words most of the efficiency of doing a short address lookup can be = maintained even if the address is the suffix of a longer address = provided that the implementation is optimised for this case.
 
I = think that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. This applies to = your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose address design.
 
In = your F5 case a longest match engine will work by definition on a = variable length address, provided it is short enough that sufficient = addresses from the primary address space can be deployed to this. Note = that you can throw the address length into the longest match engine if = you wish and it will simply consume it and if correctly programmed will = return the correct result. Thus any of the address definitions that do = not contain discontinuous substructure such as the cases with inbuilt = segment routing can be looked up in a common hardware address = recognition engine without analysis of the first byte.
 
Now = I think that it is worth looking at case 1 and 2 above and noting there = is some applicability to both the short address cases and the segment = routing case with short addresses that you propose.
 
Of = course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis these cases = because the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used with is not = referenced by the drafts.
 
Let us assume a tiny packet:
 
14B = of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14)
8B of = UDP
2B = of payload
 
That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses = plus the overhead)
 
Now consider IPv6 which is pretty = minimalist for a connectionless packet apart from the size of its = addresses.
 
IPv6 is 40B 
 
So = total of 64B for the packet which is the benchmark since it is the IETF = plan of record for most applications.
 
If = we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these drafts) i.e. = subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B. 
 
That = is a useful saving 47% which might be important in some specialist = applications where bandwidth or radio energy was important, however =  much depends on what the practical size of the payload in, and = what options or extensions are in the packet to fulfil the =  communications needs. So for example if I were to need an = additional 20B of packet option and payload the saving is reduced to 36% = reducing to 20% saving if 100B were needed. A 20% saving is not worth = the cost and complexity of changing the packet.
 
So, = to understand the benefit of reducing the address size and presumably = using it in an as yet undefined packet format it is necessary for the = authors to describe the application for small standalone addresses (as = opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more detail than is provided in = the scenarios document, in particular the size of the transport layer, = and the size of the expected payload. Additionally it is necessary that = they describe the details of the network layer packet and its MAC = environment.
 
Once more detail is know, we will know = whether there is a case for small native addresses or whether we should = focus our attention on how to map such addresses as suffixes of a larger = well known address type such as IPv6.
 
- = Stewart
= --Apple-Mail=_FC2C6DE1-03FE-44CA-B6E5-9BAB15CBB61D-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 07:38:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850F23A0A02 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 07:38:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id exXEJIOCR8tJ for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 07:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2487C3A09DE for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 07:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id c3so6680ybi.3 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 07:38:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=7XA2HRdkn4wqGcMQkjO67x+Yfr0bH5Rh1t5cFSZXMBQ=; b=UY/hPO3yjzUcrRD6U0Ha0EEkTH2iquqrMvzTnd9GvFrq6LhacxUNaathoDPAPOXOWJ Nj3+7QIrWkJeAvYe1LOrYVa5HPZy497tw1cPYiBNeCHFLfwHUg80YhSsJSnJ8PMPVBad NZqUnK9R0IanNtIezuwmFfB3gPn6oIWuHcqGcYXsHZeDN7KPvntjMdXLDVgZ/R293NXw Z6HhKfNXhPbQJ13GrahnloKYSEzTtGaV8EfvI6hO/qG4pBGg5kC2DydJLBqw7rIUlJp0 0P0NObYuqArZIvEDKp6N3cu6OHNJUBo3/sNcMTAy1XkkKEcdrfxPQRpBi18PC+hrpQd7 Hsng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7XA2HRdkn4wqGcMQkjO67x+Yfr0bH5Rh1t5cFSZXMBQ=; b=ReNA23ASLo16fwRPjc4YsYnoFZaLTJczumDUvBxBPLsj0ePl96zFUBU4KsbHZoloi5 cW0Pw786HDvKiFoguCaQmvBuHZvaTLQpggSeZyBW+6iX7cUth9ehjF5zicsznVMz4Aek Y8+NAIc10RZTxh5IqChfXKZhKaoM46mK7HsyfQOo0GEkHcSb1StKBgA4964IWhsdFLaM EHbjxjsAaMtF/H8nBCzY74kUHa2vd+N45/XQsQH8wuo9CTahpQW0njK9DWzfhMZUCMnY JrW3TkLKkq9VmJLuQ9YhvZA/zV8OzOFPoNgUPoodNFxzEPEMIrMuHwOInN3RZnFDcg3L 7ArQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533uFHmWv82/dvNJgkU9lQZP/ztdd7pvcwSy6cklG1BP9k8ZpvHB YKOYR0QWdL1+i6ESibBqoiOo07McgzgkHNf9kmg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRLIlSIQe7CmAuhkCBnVhZCPNVYdlj0FYUzzCShMQaGSj2vEBAm7WDCPlNPI8W8Ngnuu1Mtrk8zP0S8iqUxIw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c3c4:: with SMTP id t187mr4987205ybf.175.1612366725157; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 07:38:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <051CE5FA-BDCB-4BA3-BE19-2C6FF995AC04@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <051CE5FA-BDCB-4BA3-BE19-2C6FF995AC04@gmail.com> Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 09:38:34 -0600 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: int-area Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e6983705ba7061a4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:38:49 -0000 --000000000000e6983705ba7061a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stewart, Thanks for your analysis. I haven't read the drafts you mentioned but I thought that the address size issue was long resolved with the IPv6: basically it matters on the wireless medium and this is solved by the so-called ROHC RObust Header Compression, which is adapted by 5G and it works well. Wired medium case which seems to be the main focus according to your mail, was considered moot, the routers would be able handle it and on the medium it does not delay things much. Behcet On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stewart Bryant wrote: > > Re drafts: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-str= ucture/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ > > I have a number of comments these drafts, but in this email I would like > to focus on the small address proposal. By this I mean addresses that are > shorter than 64bits. > > It seems to me that there are 3 operational reasons for small addresses: > > 1) That you might be worried about the amount of packet taken up by the > addresses. > > 2) That you might be worried about the amount of energy required to send = a > packet. > > 3) That you want to use an address that is somehow native to a legacy > application. > > =E2=80=A6 and there are at least to implementation reasons: > > 4) That you might be worried about the amount of memory in the FIB. > > 5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB hardware. > > There are two approaches to the case of addresses that are are relatively > short, where for the purposes of this discussion I define =E2=80=9Crelati= vely > short=E2=80=9D as an address between 8 and 64 bits in length. > > One approach is to design and implement a new packet type, be that an > original design, or the repurposing of a suitable existing non-IP design. > If that is what you have in mind it would greatly assist consideration of > your work if you published that design in the IETF, or at least pointed t= o > it as an accessible document. That would allow us to debate the propertie= s > of the packet and or your address proposal in the context of the packet > design. An alternative approach which needs to be considered is to make t= he > FlexIP address a suffix of an existing and well known address type such a= s > IPv6. In such a case by standardising the corresponding IPv6 prefix you m= ay > produce implementation simplifications, or alternatively by making it a > prefix well known in the domain you construct quite an effective leakage > prevention mechanism. > > Consider the IPv6 suffix case. Validating a well-know prefix before > invoking the address lookup machinery is a simple efficient process using > either one of more compare operators, or some hw technique such as a > special register. Certainly we could build hw to look up a small set of > well-known prefixes that burns a lot less energy than used in a full > address lookup. So that brings us to looking up the suffix and, by > definition the table used to do that is small. > In other words most of the efficiency of doing a short address lookup can > be maintained even if the address is the suffix of a longer address > provided that the implementation is optimised for this case. > > I think that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. This applies t= o > your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose address design. > > In your F5 case a longest match engine will work by definition on a > variable length address, provided it is short enough that sufficient > addresses from the primary address space can be deployed to this. Note th= at > you can throw the address length into the longest match engine if you wis= h > and it will simply consume it and if correctly programmed will return the > correct result. Thus any of the address definitions that do not contain > discontinuous substructure such as the cases with inbuilt segment routing > can be looked up in a common hardware address recognition engine without > analysis of the first byte. > > Now I think that it is worth looking at case 1 and 2 above and noting > there is some applicability to both the short address cases and the segme= nt > routing case with short addresses that you propose. > > Of course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis these cases > because the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used with is not > referenced by the drafts. > > Let us assume a tiny packet: > > 14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14) > 8B of UDP > 2B of payload > > That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses plus the overhead) > > Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimalist for a connectionless packet > apart from the size of its addresses. > > IPv6 is 40B > > So total of 64B for the packet which is the benchmark since it is the IET= F > plan of record for most applications. > > If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these drafts) i.e. > subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B. > > That is a useful saving 47% which might be important in some specialist > applications where bandwidth or radio energy was important, however much > depends on what the practical size of the payload in, and what options or > extensions are in the packet to fulfil the communications needs. So for > example if I were to need an additional 20B of packet option and payload > the saving is reduced to 36% reducing to 20% saving if 100B were needed. = A > 20% saving is not worth the cost and complexity of changing the packet. > > So, to understand the benefit of reducing the address size and presumably > using it in an as yet undefined packet format it is necessary for the > authors to describe the application for small standalone addresses (as > opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more detail than is provided in the > scenarios document, in particular the size of the transport layer, and th= e > size of the expected payload. Additionally it is necessary that they > describe the details of the network layer packet and its MAC environment. > > Once more detail is know, we will know whether there is a case for small > native addresses or whether we should focus our attention on how to map > such addresses as suffixes of a larger well known address type such as IP= v6. > > - Stewart > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > --000000000000e6983705ba7061a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stewart,

Thanks for your analysis.
I haven't read the drafts you mentioned but I thought that the= address size issue was long resolved with the IPv6:

basically it matters on the wireless medium and this is solved by the so= -called ROHC RObust Header Compression,=C2=A0
which is adapted by= 5G and it works well.
Wired medium case which seems to be the ma= in focus according to your mail, was considered=C2=A0moot, the routers woul= d be able handle it and on the medium it does not delay things much.
<= div>
Behcet

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stewart Bryan= t <stewart.bryant@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
<=
span style=3D"color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration:none">https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure/<=
u>
https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/<=
u>
I have a number of comments these drafts, but in this = email I would like to focus on the small address proposal. By this I mean a= ddresses that are shorter than 64bits.
=C2=A0
It seems to me that there are 3 operat= ional reasons for small addresses:
=C2=A0=
1) That you might be worried about the amount of packe= t taken up by the addresses.
=C2=A0
2) That you might be worried about the amount of energy requ= ired to send a packet.
=C2=A0
3) That you want to use an address that is somehow native to a leg= acy application.

=E2=80=A6 a= nd there are at least to implementation reasons:

4) That you might be worried about the amount o= f memory in the FIB.
=C2= =A0
5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB hard= ware.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
There are = two approaches to the case of addresses that are are relatively short, wher= e for the purposes of this discussion I define =E2=80=9Crelatively short=E2= =80=9D as an address between 8 and 64 bits in length.

One approach= is to design and implement a new packet type, be that an original design, = or the repurposing of a suitable existing non-IP design. If that is what yo= u have in mind it would greatly assist consideration of your work if you pu= blished that design in the IETF, or at least pointed to it as an accessible= document. That would allow us to debate the properties of the packet and o= r your address proposal in the context of the packet design. An alternative= approach which needs to be considered is to make the FlexIP address a suff= ix of an existing and well known address type such as IPv6. In such a case = by standardising the corresponding IPv6 prefix you may produce implementati= on simplifications, or alternatively by making it a prefix well known in th= e domain you construct quite an effective leakage prevention mechanism.

Consider the IPv6 suffix case.=C2=A0Validating a well-know prefix before invoking the address lookup machin= ery is a simple efficient process using either one of more compare operator= s, or some hw technique such as a special register. Certainly we could buil= d hw to look up a small set of well-known prefixes that burns a lot less en= ergy than used in a full address lookup. So that brings us to looking up th= e suffix and, by definition the table used to do that is small.
In other words most of the efficiency of doi= ng a short address lookup can be maintained even if the address is the suff= ix of a longer address provided that the implementation is optimised for th= is case.
=C2=A0
I thi= nk that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. This applies to your = Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose address design.<= /div>
=C2=A0
In your F5 case a longest ma= tch engine will work by definition on a variable length address, provided i= t is short enough that sufficient addresses from the primary address space = can be deployed to this. Note that you can throw the address length into th= e longest match engine if you wish and it will simply consume it and if cor= rectly programmed will return the correct result. Thus any of the address d= efinitions that do not contain discontinuous substructure such as the cases= with inbuilt segment routing can be looked up in a common hardware address= recognition engine without analysis of the first byte.
=
=C2=A0
Now I think that it is worth look= ing at case 1 and 2 above and noting there is some applicability to both th= e short address cases and the segment routing case with short addresses tha= t you propose.
=C2=A0
<= div>
Of course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis these cases beca= use the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used with is not reference= d by the drafts.
=C2=A0
Let us assume a tiny packet:
=C2= =A0
14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14= )
8B of UDP
2B of pay= load
=C2=A0
That is 2= 4B + NW layer (the addresses plus the overhead)
= =C2=A0
Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimal= ist for a connectionless packet apart from the size of its addresses.
=C2=A0
IPv6 is 40B=C2=A0
=C2=A0
So total of 6= 4B for the packet which is the benchmark since it is the IETF plan of recor= d for most applications.
=C2=A0
If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these drafts) i= .e. subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
That is a useful saving 4= 7% which might be important in some specialist applications where bandwidth= or radio energy was important, however =C2=A0much depends on what the prac= tical size of the payload in, and what options or extensions are in the pac= ket to fulfil the =C2=A0communications needs. So for example if I were to n= eed an additional 20B of packet option and payload the saving is reduced to= 36% reducing to 20% saving if 100B were needed. A 20% saving is not worth = the cost and complexity of changing the packet.
= =C2=A0
So, to understand the benefit of reducing= the address size and presumably using it in an as yet undefined packet for= mat it is necessary for the authors to describe the application for small s= tandalone addresses (as opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more detail t= han is provided in the scenarios document, in particular the size of the tr= ansport layer, and the size of the expected payload. Additionally it is nec= essary that they describe the details of the network layer packet and its M= AC environment.
=C2=A0
=
Once more detail is know, we will know whether there is a case for small = native addresses or whether we should focus our attention on how to map suc= h addresses as suffixes of a larger well known address type such as IPv6.
=C2=A0
- Stewart
_______________________________________________
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
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I think some people have concerns at the cost of compressing a header, = but there seem to be other use cases. It is up to the authors to build their argument for short addresses I = was responding to the case they made. Stewart > On 3 Feb 2021, at 15:38, Behcet Sarikaya = wrote: >=20 > Hi Stewart, >=20 > Thanks for your analysis. > I haven't read the drafts you mentioned but I thought that the address = size issue was long resolved with the IPv6: >=20 > basically it matters on the wireless medium and this is solved by the = so-called ROHC RObust Header Compression,=20 > which is adapted by 5G and it works well. > Wired medium case which seems to be the main focus according to your = mail, was considered moot, the routers would be able handle it and on = the medium it does not delay things much. >=20 > Behcet >=20 > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stewart Bryant = > wrote: > =20 > Re drafts: > =20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-stru= cture/ = > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ = > I have a number of comments these drafts, but in this email I would = like to focus on the small address proposal. By this I mean addresses = that are shorter than 64bits. > =20 > It seems to me that there are 3 operational reasons for small = addresses: > =20 > 1) That you might be worried about the amount of packet taken up by = the addresses. > =20 > 2) That you might be worried about the amount of energy required to = send a packet. > =20 > 3) That you want to use an address that is somehow native to a legacy = application. >=20 > =E2=80=A6 and there are at least to implementation reasons: >=20 > 4) That you might be worried about the amount of memory in the FIB. > =20 > 5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB hardware.=20 > =20 > There are two approaches to the case of addresses that are are = relatively short, where for the purposes of this discussion I define = =E2=80=9Crelatively short=E2=80=9D as an address between 8 and 64 bits = in length. >=20 > One approach is to design and implement a new packet type, be that an = original design, or the repurposing of a suitable existing non-IP = design. If that is what you have in mind it would greatly assist = consideration of your work if you published that design in the IETF, or = at least pointed to it as an accessible document. That would allow us to = debate the properties of the packet and or your address proposal in the = context of the packet design. An alternative approach which needs to be = considered is to make the FlexIP address a suffix of an existing and = well known address type such as IPv6. In such a case by standardising = the corresponding IPv6 prefix you may produce implementation = simplifications, or alternatively by making it a prefix well known in = the domain you construct quite an effective leakage prevention = mechanism. >=20 > Consider the IPv6 suffix case. Validating a well-know prefix before = invoking the address lookup machinery is a simple efficient process = using either one of more compare operators, or some hw technique such as = a special register. Certainly we could build hw to look up a small set = of well-known prefixes that burns a lot less energy than used in a full = address lookup. So that brings us to looking up the suffix and, by = definition the table used to do that is small. > In other words most of the efficiency of doing a short address lookup = can be maintained even if the address is the suffix of a longer address = provided that the implementation is optimised for this case. > =20 > I think that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. This = applies to your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose address = design. > =20 > In your F5 case a longest match engine will work by definition on a = variable length address, provided it is short enough that sufficient = addresses from the primary address space can be deployed to this. Note = that you can throw the address length into the longest match engine if = you wish and it will simply consume it and if correctly programmed will = return the correct result. Thus any of the address definitions that do = not contain discontinuous substructure such as the cases with inbuilt = segment routing can be looked up in a common hardware address = recognition engine without analysis of the first byte. > =20 > Now I think that it is worth looking at case 1 and 2 above and noting = there is some applicability to both the short address cases and the = segment routing case with short addresses that you propose. > =20 > Of course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis these cases = because the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used with is not = referenced by the drafts. > =20 > Let us assume a tiny packet: > =20 > 14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14) > 8B of UDP > 2B of payload > =20 > That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses plus the overhead) > =20 > Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimalist for a connectionless = packet apart from the size of its addresses. > =20 > IPv6 is 40B=20 > =20 > So total of 64B for the packet which is the benchmark since it is the = IETF plan of record for most applications. > =20 > If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these drafts) i.e. = subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B.=20 > =20 > That is a useful saving 47% which might be important in some = specialist applications where bandwidth or radio energy was important, = however much depends on what the practical size of the payload in, and = what options or extensions are in the packet to fulfil the = communications needs. So for example if I were to need an additional 20B = of packet option and payload the saving is reduced to 36% reducing to = 20% saving if 100B were needed. A 20% saving is not worth the cost and = complexity of changing the packet. > =20 > So, to understand the benefit of reducing the address size and = presumably using it in an as yet undefined packet format it is necessary = for the authors to describe the application for small standalone = addresses (as opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more detail than is = provided in the scenarios document, in particular the size of the = transport layer, and the size of the expected payload. Additionally it = is necessary that they describe the details of the network layer packet = and its MAC environment. > =20 > Once more detail is know, we will know whether there is a case for = small native addresses or whether we should focus our attention on how = to map such addresses as suffixes of a larger well known address type = such as IPv6. > =20 > - Stewart > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area = --Apple-Mail=_BD52139C-8791-4A7E-8265-5B95E536F91B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear = Behcet

You need to = read the scenarios draft to see the use cases they have in = mind.

I think = some people have concerns at the cost of compressing a header, but there = seem to be other use cases.

It is up to the authors to build their argument for short = addresses I was responding to the case they made.
Stewart


On 3 Feb 2021, at 15:38, Behcet = Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for your analysis.
I haven't read = the drafts you mentioned but I thought that the address size issue was = long resolved with the IPv6:

basically it matters on the wireless = medium and this is solved by the so-called ROHC RObust Header = Compression, 
which is adapted by 5G and it = works well.
Wired medium case which seems to be the = main focus according to your mail, was considered moot, the routers = would be able handle it and on the medium it does not delay things = much.

Behcet

On Wed, Feb = 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Re drafts:
 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-a=
ddress-structure/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-stru=
cture/
I have a number of comments these drafts, but in this email I = would like to focus on the small address proposal. By this I mean = addresses that are shorter than 64bits.
 
It seems to me that there are 3 operational reasons for small = addresses:
 
1) That you might be worried about the amount of packet taken = up by the addresses.
 
2) That you might be worried about the amount of energy = required to send a packet.
 
3) That you want to use an address that is somehow native to = a legacy application.

=E2=80=A6 and there are at least to implementation = reasons:

4) That you might be worried about = the amount of memory in the FIB.
 
5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB = hardware. 
 
There are two approaches to the case of addresses that are = are relatively short, where for the purposes of this discussion I define = =E2=80=9Crelatively short=E2=80=9D as an address between 8 and 64 bits = in length.

One approach is to design and implement a new packet type, be = that an original design, or the repurposing of a suitable existing = non-IP design. If that is what you have in mind it would greatly assist = consideration of your work if you published that design in the IETF, or = at least pointed to it as an accessible document. That would allow us to = debate the properties of the packet and or your address proposal in the = context of the packet design. An alternative approach which needs to be = considered is to make the FlexIP address a suffix of an existing and = well known address type such as IPv6. In such a case by standardising = the corresponding IPv6 prefix you may produce implementation = simplifications, or alternatively by making it a prefix well known in = the domain you construct quite an effective leakage prevention = mechanism.

Consider the IPv6 suffix case. Validating a well-know prefix before = invoking the address lookup machinery is a simple efficient process = using either one of more compare operators, or some hw technique such as = a special register. Certainly we could build hw to look up a small set = of well-known prefixes that burns a lot less energy than used in a full = address lookup. So that brings us to looking up the suffix and, by = definition the table used to do that is small.
In other words most of the efficiency of doing a short = address lookup can be maintained even if the address is the suffix of a = longer address provided that the implementation is optimised for this = case.
 
I think that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. = This applies to your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose = address design.
 
In your F5 case a longest match engine will work by = definition on a variable length address, provided it is short enough = that sufficient addresses from the primary address space can be deployed = to this. Note that you can throw the address length into the longest = match engine if you wish and it will simply consume it and if correctly = programmed will return the correct result. Thus any of the address = definitions that do not contain discontinuous substructure such as the = cases with inbuilt segment routing can be looked up in a common hardware = address recognition engine without analysis of the first byte.
 
Now I think that it is worth looking at case 1 and 2 above = and noting there is some applicability to both the short address cases = and the segment routing case with short addresses that you propose.
 
Of course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis = these cases because the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used = with is not referenced by the drafts.
 
Let us assume a tiny packet:
 
14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14)
8B of UDP
2B of payload
 
That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses plus the overhead)
 
Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimalist for a = connectionless packet apart from the size of its addresses.
 
IPv6 is 40B 
 
So total of 64B for the packet which is the benchmark since = it is the IETF plan of record for most applications.
 
If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these = drafts) i.e. subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of = 34B. 
 
That is a useful saving 47% which might be important in some = specialist applications where bandwidth or radio energy was important, = however  much depends on what the practical size of the payload in, = and what options or extensions are in the packet to fulfil the =  communications needs. So for example if I were to need an = additional 20B of packet option and payload the saving is reduced to 36% = reducing to 20% saving if 100B were needed. A 20% saving is not worth = the cost and complexity of changing the packet.
 
So, to understand the benefit of reducing the address size = and presumably using it in an as yet undefined packet format it is = necessary for the authors to describe the application for small = standalone addresses (as opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more = detail than is provided in the scenarios document, in particular the = size of the transport layer, and the size of the expected payload. = Additionally it is necessary that they describe the details of the = network layer packet and its MAC environment.
 
Once more detail is know, we will know whether there is a = case for small native addresses or whether we should focus our attention = on how to map such addresses as suffixes of a larger well known address = type such as IPv6.
 
- = Stewart
___________________________________________= ____
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area

= --Apple-Mail=_BD52139C-8791-4A7E-8265-5B95E536F91B-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 17:40:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6F53A1066; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 17:40:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fsr5JD_cbaoC; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 17:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C63A3A0CDC; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 17:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4DWLk82n4nz67klw; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 09:36:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.50) by fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 02:40:03 +0100 Received: from DGGEML422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.39) by fraeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 02:40:02 +0100 Received: from DGGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.112]) by dggeml422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 09:40:00 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "apn@ietf.org" CC: "rtgwg@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: The official instructions on the next step of APN Thread-Index: Adb6lleZeMHH2QFSSZ+cehjvmP7e9g== Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:39:59 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883983@dggeml512-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.48.156] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883983dggeml512mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] The official instructions on the next step of APN X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 01:40:10 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883983dggeml512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, You may have seen the BoF announcement https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bo= fs/. The instructions on the next step of APN are officially confirmed, 1. Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and INTAREA meetings at = IETF110. 2. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF11= 0 to go into more depth on this topic. Any suggestions on how to have fruitful discussions and progress the work i= n IETF are very welcomed. Thank you! "The Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF proposal was focused on develop= ing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey, and use an identif= ier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-, and ser= vice-level requirements at the network layer. This proposal was made for se= veral previous IETF meetings and will benefit from further focused discussi= on at IETF 110 during the Routing Area Working Group (RTGWG) and Internet Area Working Group (INTAREA) meetings. A virtual interim = meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF 110 will go into more depth= on this topic. Discussion continues on the Application-aware Networking mailing list. " Best regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883983dggeml512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,

 

You may have seen the BoF annou= ncement https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bofs/.

 

The instructions on the next st= ep of APN are officially confirmed,

1= .   &= nbsp;  Presentations and discu= ssions in the RTGWG and INTAREA meetings at IETF110.

2= .   &= nbsp;  A virtual interim meeti= ng of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF110 to go int= o more depth on this topic.

 

Any suggestions on how to have = fruitful discussions and progress the work in IETF are very welcomed. Thank= you!

 

“The Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF proposal was fo= cused on developing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey, an= d use an identifier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-, and service-level requirements at the= network layer. This proposal was made for several previous IETF meetings a= nd will benefit from further focused discussion at IETF 110 during the Rout= ing Area Working Group (RTGWG) and Internet Area Working Group (INTAREA) meetings. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF 110 will go into more dept= h on this topic. Discussion continues on the Application-aware Networking = mailing list. ”

 

Best regards,

Shuping

 

--_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883983dggeml512mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 19:03:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987C13A095F; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:03:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XO9ow26RZxl; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59A233A0962; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4DWNWg2Mz3z67kdR; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:57:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.61) by fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 04:03:50 +0100 Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 04:03:50 +0100 Received: from DGGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.112]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 11:03:45 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "apn@ietf.org" CC: "rtgwg@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Summary of discussions in the APN mailing list Thread-Index: Adb6mhtdskLtmrD4TyK6x0wyFNFE0A== Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 03:03:45 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883A02@dggeml512-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.48.156] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883A02dggeml512mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Summary of discussions in the APN mailing list X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 03:03:57 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883A02dggeml512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, There have been a lot of discussions ongoing in the APN mailing list recent= ly. I have tried to summarize and categorize the discussions as below for y= our reference. The mailing list archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/apn/ To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn 1. Information summary a) https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/3zg7APqavroKYLkZn1udnnb2= 5qc/ 2. Draft review a) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-ana= lysis This draft was intensively reviewed and updated accordingly. Please find th= e next version in the Github. Your reviews and comments are very welcomed. https://github.com/APN-Community/APN-Scope-Gap-Analysis b) https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/ee1sklx0yC3-e2qTKFjl8vjg= oAM/ c) Review on the BoF proposal, https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg= /apn/VnR-P7825nMAwwUbDiTJoeN57yo/ 3. Clarifications a) https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/wCA_qdD5aHOz8goR4qRgcBx9= HvY/ b) https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/58cj43DgIXUZbLyhoBhrrOiE= 9JY/ c) https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/UlmZ-yHOLU9qEtT_V9UYxMJ= Ai_Y/ 4. Consensus on the APN benefits a) Taking advantages of the intelligence at the network edge: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/X5pf2qMoRASJSC6Wq-A1bRaaBK8/ 5. APN Use cases a) SD-WAN - Standards in MEF & Implementations https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/LT8ZlRW4SsqsLXf71b3c0ocd904/ https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/5M7OxUet29trKVAHtYCL79JbpZQ/ b) 5G Core - N6 interface is IP based and can be used for APN https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/O1ZY7Ue4kiFjsJkoXlQhVV6sRsU/ c) Detnet is also a valuable use case to explore for APN https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/H5cbZs85n3tdTYcJIBIgQ98TMv0/ 6. Inter-WG discussions a) With DMM https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/88WqXZIUeJVTlSvCMssvN2ktqKo/ https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/JHJX7cvvbXGcDEWTzLIc71-1aSg/ b) With INTAREA - waiting for responses and discussions https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/0yZyD8EcJrjjiUVZB89n0-S93l0/ c) With RTGWG - almost all the discussions have involved the RTGWG 7. Next Step a) https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/K-PVCcYt2VLmE13P24sW2OjC= IPw/ Best regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19883A02dggeml512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,

 

There have been a lot of discus= sions ongoing in the APN mailing list recently. I have tried to summarize a= nd categorize the discussions as below for your reference.

 

The mailing list archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/apn/

To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn

 

1= .   &= nbsp;  Information summary

a= )   &= nbsp;   https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/3zg7APqavroKYLkZn1udnnb25qc/

2= .   &= nbsp;  Draft review

a= )   &= nbsp;   https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis

= This draft was intensively reviewed and updated accord= ingly. Please find the next version in the Github. Your reviews and comment= s are very welcomed.

= https://github.com/APN-Community/APN-Scope-Gap-Analysis

b= )   &= nbsp;   https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/ee1sklx0yC3-e2qTKFjl8vjgoAM/

c= )   &= nbsp;    Review on the BoF propo= sal, https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/VnR-P7825nMAwwUbDiTJoeN57yo/ =

3= .   &= nbsp;  Clarifications

a= )   &= nbsp;   https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/wCA_qdD5aHOz8goR4qRgcBx9HvY/

b= )   &= nbsp;   https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/58cj43DgIXUZbLyhoBhrrOiE9JY/

c= )   &= nbsp;    https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/UlmZ-yHOLU9qEtT_V9UYxMJAi_Y/

4= .   &= nbsp;  Consensus on the APN be= nefits

a= )   &= nbsp;   Taking advantages of th= e intelligence at the network edge:

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/X5pf= 2qMoRASJSC6Wq-A1bRaaBK8/

5= .   &= nbsp;  APN Use cases

a= )   &= nbsp;   SD-WAN – Standard= s in MEF & Implementations

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/LT8Z= lRW4SsqsLXf71b3c0ocd904/

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/5M7O= xUet29trKVAHtYCL79JbpZQ/

b= )   &= nbsp;   5G Core - N6 interface = is IP based and can be used for APN

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/O1ZY= 7Ue4kiFjsJkoXlQhVV6sRsU/

c= )   &= nbsp;    Detnet is also a valuab= le use case to explore for APN

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/H5cb= Zs85n3tdTYcJIBIgQ98TMv0/

6= .   &= nbsp;  Inter-WG discussions

a= )   &= nbsp;   With DMM

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/88Wq= XZIUeJVTlSvCMssvN2ktqKo/

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/JHJX= 7cvvbXGcDEWTzLIc71-1aSg/

b= )   &= nbsp;   With INTAREA - waiting = for responses and discussions

= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/0yZy= D8EcJrjjiUVZB89n0-S93l0/

c= )   &= nbsp;    With RTGWG – almo= st all the discussions have involved the RTGWG

7= .   &= nbsp;  Next Step

a= )   &= nbsp;   https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/K-PVCcYt2VLmE13P24sW2OjCIPw/

 

Best regards,

Shuping

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--0000000000000f606d05ba7af84b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Shuping I agree that APN has critical applicability for operators for 5G, DETNET and even any public or private multicast MVPN streaming video content so does have quite extensive applicability for operators. There also maybe private SR use cases for special SLA application flows value added service. As for productive discussions to move the ball forward with APN BOF, I do agree with having discussions where network operators can share their experiences and how APN can benefit so in that light as you stated IntArea and RTGWG are a good start. GROW maybe useful for in the global internet routing context and how APN can play a role. I think DETNET would be good for applicability statement, and Spring, 6MAN and TEAS maybe good from a APN architecture and design framework as APN leverages IPv6 data plane EH headers and utilizes traffic steering SRv6 forwarding plane and also gets into 5G network slicing so then TEAS comes into play and NS network slicing architecture. I would be happy to present APN architecture and applicability at IETF 110. Kind Regards Gyan On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:34 PM liupengyjy@outlook.com < liupengyjy@outlook.com> wrote: > It's good news that APN can be fully discussed in rtg and intarea' > meetings. > > There have been many drafts of APN technology and scenarios. As an > operator, we think APN is valuable and worthy of discussion and progress. > > Regards, > Peng Liu(CMCC) > > ---Original--- > *From:* "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" > *Date:* Thu, Feb 4, 2021 09:39 AM > *To:* "apn@ietf.org"; > *Cc:* "int-area@ietf.org";"rtgwg@ietf.org"< > rtgwg@ietf.org>; > *Subject:* [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN > > Dear all, > > > > You may have seen the BoF announcement > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bofs/. > > > > The instructions on the next step of APN are officially confirmed, > > 1. Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and INTAREA meetings > at IETF110. > > 2. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after > IETF110 to go into more depth on this topic. > > > > Any suggestions on how to have fruitful discussions and progress the work > in IETF are very welcomed. Thank you! > > > > =E2=80=9CThe Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF proposal was focused = on > developing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey, and use a= n > identifier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-= , > and service-level requirements at the network layer. This proposal was ma= de > for several previous IETF meetings and will benefit from further focused > discussion at IETF 110 during the Routing Area Working Group (RTGWG > ) and Internet Area Working > Group (INTAREA ) > meetings. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IE= TF > 110 will go into more depth on this topic. Discussion continues on the Ap= plication-aware > Networking mailing list. =E2= =80=9D > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > -- > Apn mailing list > Apn@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --0000000000000f606d05ba7af84b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Shuping=C2=A0
I agree that APN has critical applicability for o= perators for 5G, DETNET and even any public or private multicast MVPN strea= ming video content so does have quite extensive applicability for operators= .
There also maybe private SR =C2=A0use cases for sp= ecial SLA application flows value added service.
As for productive discussions to move the ball for= ward with APN BOF, I do agree with having discussions where network operato= rs can share their experiences and how APN can benefit so in that light as = you stated IntArea and RTGWG are a good start. =C2=A0
GROW maybe useful for in the global internet routing context and how APN = can play a role.

I think= DETNET would be good for applicability statement, =C2=A0and Spring, 6MAN a= nd TEAS maybe good from a APN architecture and design framework as APN leve= rages IPv6 data plane EH headers and utilizes traffic steering SRv6 forward= ing plane and also gets into 5G network slicing so then TEAS comes into pla= y and NS network slicing architecture.

I would be happy to present APN architecture and applicabili= ty at IETF 110.

Kind Reg= ards=C2=A0

Gyan=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:34 PM liupengyjy@outlook.com <l= iupengyjy@outlook.com> wrote:
---Original---
From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)"<pengshuping@huawei.= com>
Date: Thu, Feb 4, 2021 09:39 AM
<= div>Subject: [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN=

Dear all, =

=C2=A0

You may have seen the BoF annou= ncement https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bofs/.

=C2=A0

The instructions on the next st= ep of APN are officially confirmed,

1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and = INTAREA meetings at IETF110.

2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be sc= heduled after IETF110 to go into more depth on this topic.

=C2=A0

Any suggestions on how to have = fruitful discussions and progress the work in IETF are very welcomed. Thank= you!

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CThe Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF = proposal was focused on developing a framework and set of mechanisms to der= ive, convey, and use an identifier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-, and service-level requirements at the= network layer. This proposal was made for several previous IETF meetings a= nd will benefit from further focused discussion at IETF 110 during the Rout= ing Area Working Group (RTGWG) and Internet Area Working Group (INTAREA) meetings. A virtual interi= m meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF 110 will go into more dept= h on this topic. Discussion continues on the=C2=A0Application-aware Networking=C2=A0mailing list.=C2=A0=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Shuping

=C2=A0

--
Apn mailing list
Apn@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn
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boundary="_000_SN6PR13MB233420A1250187B9D2FBEC4B85B39SN6PR13MB2334namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b2123d0d-49de-487b-474d-08d8c92aa655 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Feb 2021 16:33:48.7342 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: RJrh1rTDfAzhlTsZnBMEjNlvWRSTaAg2AmcC3MXUeh19IMxmmh+ad2xUiijGhewpICdAHyV6YBZz8LuXMVu3yw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR13MB2496 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The official instructions on the next step of APN X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 16:33:55 -0000 --_000_SN6PR13MB233420A1250187B9D2FBEC4B85B39SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my honor opinion, there are substantial solid work that IETF can tackle = in the control plane to securely coordinate labels between different netwo= rk domains to ensure end to end services: such as between 5G Core to N6 IP = network, between SDWAN to SR domain, etc. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yiakoumis-network-tokens-02 is a good example. T= he approach proposed by the Network Tokens (JSON based Web token) might be = overkill, but something along the line (but simpler) would be beneficial fo= r end to end services. If APN only wants to focus on the Data Plane, as suggested in the charter o= f construct another layer of label to data packets, then you have to utiliz= e some existing control plane methods to negotiate the new label added betw= een domains, such as using the IPsec IKE method between controllers of the= two domains to negotiate the labels used in the data plane My two cents, Linda Dunbar From: Apn On Behalf Of Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 7:40 PM To: apn@ietf.org Cc: int-area@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN Dear all, You may have seen the BoF announcement https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bo= fs/. The instructions on the next step of APN are officially confirmed, 1. Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and INTAREA meetings at= IETF110. 2. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF1= 10 to go into more depth on this topic. Any suggestions on how to have fruitful discussions and progress the work i= n IETF are very welcomed. Thank you! "The Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF proposal was focused on develop= ing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey, and use an identif= ier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-, and ser= vice-level requirements at the network layer. This proposal was made for se= veral previous IETF meetings and will benefit from further focused discussi= on at IETF 110 during the Routing Area Working Group (RTGWG) and Internet Area Working Group (INTARE= A) meetings. A = virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF 110 will go= into more depth on this topic. Discussion continues on the Application-awa= re Networking mailing list. " Best regards, Shuping --_000_SN6PR13MB233420A1250187B9D2FBEC4B85B39SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --_000_SN6PR13MB233420A1250187B9D2FBEC4B85B39SN6PR13MB2334namp_-- From nobody Thu Feb 4 11:34:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA533A175F; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 11:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pw533lrLMwa4; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Behcet and authors: I think ROHC can still be used for flexIP to further reduce the L3-L4 heade= r size. To my understanding, the advantage of flexIP is to change the rigid size/se= mantics of IPv6 to IP with flexibility in both size and semantics. Shorter = address is only one benefit, variable size with different semantics of addr= ess can open opportunities for security/privacy, also may simplify the IP a= ssignment process that is overhead in wireless access (NAS) for massive IOT= devices in 5G network. But I have questions to authors: 1. From the two drafts, I cannot figure out what will be the header format= for flexIP, are you going to have a separate draft to address this? 2. According to the scope, flexible IP will be used for a network connecte= d to IPv6 backbone, is that reasonable to assume the flexible IP size will = be less than 128bit because the limited flexIP network should be smaller th= an whole IPv6 based internet? Thanks Lin > On 3 Feb 2021, at 15:38, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > Thanks for your analysis. > I haven't read the drafts you mentioned but I thought that the address si= ze issue was long resolved with the IPv6: > > basically it matters on the wireless medium and this is solved by the so-= called ROHC RObust Header Compression, > which is adapted by 5G and it works well. > Wired medium case which seems to be the main focus according to your mail= , was considered moot, the routers would be able handle it and on the mediu= m it does not delay things much. > > Behcet > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stewart Bryant > wrot= e: > > Re drafts: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-str= ucture/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ > I have a number of comments these drafts, but in this email I would like = to focus on the small address proposal. By this I mean addresses that are s= horter than 64bits. > > It seems to me that there are 3 operational reasons for small addresses: > > 1) That you might be worried about the amount of packet taken up by the a= ddresses. > > 2) That you might be worried about the amount of energy required to send = a packet. > > 3) That you want to use an address that is somehow native to a legacy app= lication. > > ... and there are at least to implementation reasons: > > 4) That you might be worried about the amount of memory in the FIB. > > 5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB hardware. > > There are two approaches to the case of addresses that are are relatively= short, where for the purposes of this discussion I define "relatively shor= t" as an address between 8 and 64 bits in length. > > One approach is to design and implement a new packet type, be that an ori= ginal design, or the repurposing of a suitable existing non-IP design. If t= hat is what you have in mind it would greatly assist consideration of your = work if you published that design in the IETF, or at least pointed to it as= an accessible document. That would allow us to debate the properties of th= e packet and or your address proposal in the context of the packet design. = An alternative approach which needs to be considered is to make the FlexIP = address a suffix of an existing and well known address type such as IPv6. I= n such a case by standardising the corresponding IPv6 prefix you may produc= e implementation simplifications, or alternatively by making it a prefix we= ll known in the domain you construct quite an effective leakage prevention = mechanism. > > Consider the IPv6 suffix case. Validating a well-know prefix before invok= ing the address lookup machinery is a simple efficient process using either= one of more compare operators, or some hw technique such as a special regi= ster. Certainly we could build hw to look up a small set of well-known pref= ixes that burns a lot less energy than used in a full address lookup. So th= at brings us to looking up the suffix and, by definition the table used to = do that is small. > In other words most of the efficiency of doing a short address lookup can= be maintained even if the address is the suffix of a longer address provid= ed that the implementation is optimised for this case. > > I think that argument covers much of use cases 3, 4 and 5. This applies t= o your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your propose address design. > > In your F5 case a longest match engine will work by definition on a varia= ble length address, provided it is short enough that sufficient addresses f= rom the primary address space can be deployed to this. Note that you can th= row the address length into the longest match engine if you wish and it wil= l simply consume it and if correctly programmed will return the correct res= ult. Thus any of the address definitions that do not contain discontinuous = substructure such as the cases with inbuilt segment routing can be looked u= p in a common hardware address recognition engine without analysis of the f= irst byte. > > Now I think that it is worth looking at case 1 and 2 above and noting the= re is some applicability to both the short address cases and the segment ro= uting case with short addresses that you propose. > > Of course it is very difficult to do an accurate analysis these cases bec= ause the packet design that FlexIP is going to be used with is not referenc= ed by the drafts. > > Let us assume a tiny packet: > > 14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet is 14) > 8B of UDP > 2B of payload > > That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses plus the overhead) > > Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimalist for a connectionless packet = apart from the size of its addresses. > > IPv6 is 40B > > So total of 64B for the packet which is the benchmark since it is the IET= F plan of record for most applications. > > If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum in these drafts) i.e. subtr= act 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B. > > That is a useful saving 47% which might be important in some specialist a= pplications where bandwidth or radio energy was important, however much de= pends on what the practical size of the payload in, and what options or ext= ensions are in the packet to fulfil the communications needs. So for examp= le if I were to need an additional 20B of packet option and payload the sav= ing is reduced to 36% reducing to 20% saving if 100B were needed. A 20% sav= ing is not worth the cost and complexity of changing the packet. > > So, to understand the benefit of reducing the address size and presumably= using it in an as yet undefined packet format it is necessary for the auth= ors to describe the application for small standalone addresses (as opposed = to address suffixes) in a lot more detail than is provided in the scenarios= document, in particular the size of the transport layer, and the size of t= he expected payload. Additionally it is necessary that they describe the de= tails of the network layer packet and its MAC environment. > > Once more detail is know, we will know whether there is a case for small = native addresses or whether we should focus our attention on how to map suc= h addresses as suffixes of a larger well known address type such as IPv6. > > - Stewart > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area --_000_DM6PR13MB3145FE3376029DADA163FC09E9B39DM6PR13MB3145namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Behcet and authors:
 
I think ROHC can still be used for flexIP to furthe=
r reduce the L3-L4 header size.
To my understanding, the advantage of flexIP is to =
change the rigid size/semantics of IPv6 to IP with flexibility in both size=
 and semantics. Shorter address is only one benefit, variable size with dif=
ferent semantics of address can open opportunities for security/privacy, al=
so may simplify the IP assignment process that is overhead in wireless acce=
ss (NAS) for massive IOT devices in 5G network.
 
But I have questions to authors:<=
/pre>
 
1.  F=
rom the two drafts, I cannot figure out what will be the header format for =
flexIP, are you going to have a separate draft to address this?<=
/span>
2.  A=
ccording to the scope, flexible IP will be used for a network connected to =
IPv6 backbone, is that reasonable to assume the flexible IP size will be le=
ss than 128bit because the limited flexIP network should be smaller than wh=
ole IPv6 based internet?
 
Thanks
 
 
Lin
 
 
> On 3 Feb 2021, at 15:38, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:<=
/pre>
> 
> Hi Stewart,
> 
> Thanks for your analysis.
> I haven't read the drafts you mentioned but I =
thought that the address size issue was long resolved with the IPv6:
> 
> basically it matters on the wireless medium an=
d this is solved by the so-called ROHC RObust Header Compression, 
> which is adapted by 5G and it works well.=
> Wired medium case which seems to be the main f=
ocus according to your mail, was considered moot, the routers would be able=
 handle it and on the medium it does not delay things much.
> 
> Behcet
> 
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM Stewart Bryant =
<stewart.bryant@gmail.com <mailto:stewart.bryant@gm=
ail.com>> wrote:
> Re drafts:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-str=
ucture/ <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-jia-scenarios-flexible-=
address-structure%2F&data=3D04%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C95b5d102=
feaf4674ab8408d8c7972448%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63747=
8799262464227%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiL=
CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DyDi0mFnbU60nFC5PJC%2BAAWVI=
dSMT%2FY8UO0XIiK3J4iI%3D&reserved=3D0>
> https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ <=
;https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatr=
acker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure%2F&data=3D04=
%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C95b5d102feaf4674ab8408d8c7972448%7C0fee8ff=
2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637478799262464227%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZs=
b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C10=
00&sdata=3DXB9VFEQiaa0ZMjG5BuF%2FPeQnvFcmGgfY0%2Bye4s7CSoA%3D&reser=
ved=3D0>
> I have a number of comments these drafts, but =
in this email I would like to focus on the small address proposal. By this =
I mean addresses that are shorter than 64bits.
> It seems to me that there are 3 operational re=
asons for small addresses:
> 1) That you might be worried about the amount =
of packet taken up by the addresses.
> 2) That you might be worried about the amount =
of energy required to send a packet.
> 3) That you want to use an address that is som=
ehow native to a legacy application.
> 
> … and there are at least to implementati=
on reasons:
> 
> 4) That you might be worried about the amount =
of memory in the FIB.
> 5) That you might wish to optimise out the FIB=
 hardware. 
> There are two approaches to the case of addres=
ses that are are relatively short, where for the purposes of this discussio=
n I define “relatively short” as an address between 8 and 64 bi=
ts in length.
> 
> One approach is to design and implement a new =
packet type, be that an original design, or the repurposing of a suitable e=
xisting non-IP design. If that is what you have in mind it would greatly as=
sist consideration of your work if you published that design in the IETF, o=
r at least pointed to it as an accessible document. That would allow us to =
debate the properties of the packet and or your address proposal in the con=
text of the packet design. An alternative approach which needs to be consid=
ered is to make the FlexIP address a suffix of an existing and well known a=
ddress type such as IPv6. In such a case by standardising the corresponding=
 IPv6 prefix you may produce implementation simplifications, or alternative=
ly by making it a prefix well known in the domain you construct quite an ef=
fective leakage prevention mechanism.
> 
> Consider the IPv6 suffix case. Validating a we=
ll-know prefix before invoking the address lookup machinery is a simple eff=
icient process using either one of more compare operators, or some hw techn=
ique such as a special register. Certainly we could build hw to look up a s=
mall set of well-known prefixes that burns a lot less energy than used in a=
 full address lookup. So that brings us to looking up the suffix and, by de=
finition the table used to do that is small.
> In other words most of the efficiency of doing=
 a short address lookup can be maintained even if the address is the suffix=
 of a longer address provided that the implementation is optimised for this=
 case.
> I think that argument covers much of use cases=
 3, 4 and 5. This applies to your Indexes 1..EF, F0, F1 and F2 in your prop=
ose address design.
> In your F5 case a longest match engine will wo=
rk by definition on a variable length address, provided it is short enough =
that sufficient addresses from the primary address space can be deployed to=
 this. Note that you can throw the address length into the longest match en=
gine if you wish and it will simply consume it and if correctly programmed =
will return the correct result. Thus any of the address definitions that do=
 not contain discontinuous substructure such as the cases with inbuilt segm=
ent routing can be looked up in a common hardware address recognition engin=
e without analysis of the first byte.
> Now I think that it is worth looking at case 1=
 and 2 above and noting there is some applicability to both the short addre=
ss cases and the segment routing case with short addresses that you propose=
.
> Of course it is very difficult to do an accura=
te analysis these cases because the packet design that FlexIP is going to b=
e used with is not referenced by the drafts.
> Let us assume a tiny packet:=
> 14B of MAC header (Lora is 13 to 28, Ethernet =
is 14)
> 8B of UDP
> 2B of payload
> That is 24B + NW layer (the addresses plus the=
 overhead)
> Now consider IPv6 which is pretty minimalist f=
or a connectionless packet apart from the size of its addresses.=
> IPv6 is 40B 
> So total of 64B for the packet which is the be=
nchmark since it is the IETF plan of record for most applications.
> If we reduce the addresses to 1B (the minimum =
in these drafts) i.e. subtract 32 - 2 =3D 30 so best case is packet of 34B.=
 
> That is a useful saving 47% which might be imp=
ortant in some specialist applications where bandwidth or radio energy was =
important, however  much depends on what the practical size of the pay=
load in, and what options or extensions are in the packet to fulfil the&nbs=
p; communications needs. So for example if I were to need an additional 20B=
 of packet option and payload the saving is reduced to 36% reducing to 20% =
saving if 100B were needed. A 20% saving is not worth the cost and complexi=
ty of changing the packet.
> So, to understand the benefit of reducing the =
address size and presumably using it in an as yet undefined packet format i=
t is necessary for the authors to describe the application for small standa=
lone addresses (as opposed to address suffixes) in a lot more detail than i=
s provided in the scenarios document, in particular the size of the transpo=
rt layer, and the size of the expected payload. Additionally it is necessar=
y that they describe the details of the network layer packet and its MAC en=
vironment.
> Once more detail is know, we will know whether=
 there is a case for small native addresses or whether we should focus our =
attention on how to map such addresses as suffixes of a larger well known a=
ddress type such as IPv6.
> - Stewart
> ______________________________________________=
_
> Int-area mailing list
> Int-area@ietf.org <mailto:Int-area@ietf.=
org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DD7F3A0B70; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 02:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4DXB4h0J95z67Zq8; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:10:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 11:15:12 +0100 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 11:15:11 +0100 Received: from DGGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.112]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:15:05 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: 'Gyan Mishra' , "liupengyjy@outlook.com" CC: "apn@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN Thread-Index: AQHW+qZ/U3gdbzQoHEGE46R3KNgq7apG3ZWAgAJX/tA= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:15:04 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1988FFD3@dggeml512-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.194.197] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1988FFD3dggeml512mbschi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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int-area , "flexip@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" CC: Stewart Bryant , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , "lin.han@futurewei.com" Thread-Topic: Re: The small address use case in FlexIP Thread-Index: Adb7tux6lH+rcqZzSv6A/i5qoGQGig== Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:06:04 +0000 Message-ID: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.167.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4dhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 12:06:18 -0000 --_000_727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4dhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stewart, Behcet, Lin, Thanks for interest and argument on this topic, and glad to talk to you. In general, at this stage of the discussion, we intend to focus on the comm= unication scenarios and problems arising in those scenarios due to addressi= ng aspects. With this, we would want to come to an understanding that a dis= cussion on addressing is required and worthwhile. In our planned update to = the draft, this focus will hopefully become clearer. Discussions on possibl= e requirements for any solutions can follow once that broader understanding= has emerged. Specifically, I try to refining questions behind the discussion, and hope i= t can allay doubts to certain extent. 1. Is it reasonable to have a short address/header for short payload packet= s? - As mentioned in "http://acticom.de/internet-of-things-iot/", a typical pa= yload size equals just around 25 bytes per IPv6 datagram. Thus typically th= e saving rate will be ((14+10+25)-(14+40+25))/(14+40+25)=3D38%. So typicall= y, a 38% saving may be a good motivation for having a short address. Howeve= r, we'd like to postpone quantitative analysis after we have a rough consen= sus on problems due to addressing aspects. 2. Does ROHC already solve the problem of trans efficiency? - ROHC is designed to be used for cellar network, and improve communication= efficiency under such circumstance. Technically, it is a header compressio= n mechanism target for L3-L4, and it is indeed work well. For this, any L3 = could benefit from ROCH, while specifically, a shorter address format is mo= re moderate for constrained devices. 3. From the two drafts, I cannot figure out what will be the header format = for flexIP, are you going to have a separate draft to address this? - The header format could be described either in separate draft or be inclu= ded in previous draft. The reason we have not provide a header format yet i= s that the address format itself is already a complex topic, so it's better= for us to discuss the address first (as well as the problems and gaps), th= us we can have a better understanding if a flexible address structure is a = promising way to go. 4. According to the scope, flexible IP will be used for a network connected= to IPv6 backbone, is that reasonable to assume the flexible IP size will b= e less than 128bit because the limited flexIP network should be smaller tha= n whole IPv6 based internet? - Indeed, the network scale of limited domain is supposed to be less that I= Pv6, but it doesn't mean the address space should be strictly less than 128= -bit. If the space of the address is abundant enough, the public key could = be embedded without truncation (compare to CGA in IPv6) for certain securit= y purpose. ------- Again, the design about a flexible address structure is indeed very rough a= nd without header format, and a lot of philosophies and lessons can be lear= ned from CLNP. However, based on the feedback from IETF 109, I'd love to fi= rst focus on scenarios and problems in terms of addressing, and that is wha= t we are doing when updating the first draft "Problem Statement". Once the = problem confirmed, it would be more natural to have requirements and design= s that best solve the problem. How's that? :) Thanks, Yihao --_000_727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4dhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Stewart, Behcet, Lin,

 

Thanks for interest and argumen= t on this topic, and glad to talk to you.

 

In general, at this stage of th= e discussion, we intend to focus on the communication scenarios and problem= s arising in those scenarios due to addressing aspects. With this, we would= want to come to an understanding that a discussion on addressing is required and worthwhile. In our planned upda= te to the draft, this focus will hopefully become clearer. Discussions on p= ossible requirements for any solutions can follow once that broader underst= anding has emerged.

 

Specifically, I try to refining= questions behind the discussion, and hope it can allay doubts to certain e= xtent.

 

1. Is it reasonable to have a s= hort address/header for short payload packets?

 

- As mentioned in "http://= acticom.de/internet-of-things-iot/", a typical payload size equals jus= t around 25 bytes per IPv6 datagram. Thus typically the saving rate will be= ((14+10+25)-(14+40+25))/(14+40+25)=3D38%. So typic= ally, a 38% saving may be a good motivation for having a short address. However,= we'd like to postpone quantitative analysis after we have a rough consensu= s on problems due to addressing aspects. 

 

2. Does ROHC already solve the = problem of trans efficiency?

 

- ROHC is designed to be used f= or cellar network, and improve communication efficiency under such circumst= ance. Technically, it is a header compression mechanism target for L3-L4, a= nd it is indeed work well. For this, any L3 could benefit from ROCH, while specifically, a shorter address form= at is more moderate for constrained devices.

 

3. From the two drafts, I canno= t figure out what will be the header format for flexIP, are you going to ha= ve a separate draft to address this?

 

- The header format could be de= scribed either in separate draft or be included in previous draft. The reas= on we have not provide a header format yet is that the address format itsel= f is already a complex topic, so it's better for us to discuss the address first (as well as the problems and ga= ps), thus we can have a better understanding if a flexible address structur= e is a promising way to go.

 

4. According to the scope, flex= ible IP will be used for a network connected to IPv6 backbone, is that reas= onable to assume the flexible IP size will be less than 128bit because the = limited flexIP network should be smaller than whole IPv6 based internet?

 

- Indeed, the network scale of = limited domain is supposed to be less that IPv6, but it doesn't mean the ad= dress space should be strictly less than 128-bit. If the space of the addre= ss is abundant enough, the public key could be embedded without truncation (compare to CGA in IPv6) for certain = security purpose.

 

-------

 

Again, the design about a flexi= ble address structure is indeed very rough and without header format, and a= lot of philosophies and lessons can be learned from CLNP. However, based o= n the feedback from IETF 109, I'd love to first focus on scenarios and problems in terms of addressing, and that = is what we are doing when updating the first draft "Problem Statement&= quot;. Once the problem confirmed, it would be more natural to have require= ments and designs that best solve the problem.

 

How's that? :)

 

Thanks,

Yihao

--_000_727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4dhuaweicom_-- From nobody Fri Feb 5 06:31:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B1C3A11AE; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:31:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id chjVNI-YAvWo; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB7C33A11AD; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id l12so7942675wry.2; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=qoZiuvDEjiWJbWsxrSL7o3MCp/OCY0lxP/iiwVN6jpo=; b=gSz3sjT0wFZ13oFGTn/i4R5TO8fHlnrKfG1U0WIO/2y/XxBfossHDyx85Z0bMlC1eB mTks2+735/gH5sodLIs6xiWdq89m8V63Dz6hnBOU4icd5w6av77l25dqqddlzmdcZVVh 7dPOjDwuFeDfcn4aXGZDwL2RsA3HKYeQGLngqtmTqpbhpnXa1wsrM6WQvMDorA5kaw6a e1yJoWGaXeribRuY6ktwuhoIjvT7i3plthtxcP/j5SF/QvMizSxSkLo5yLQKfjPWvoOr FVtxQtwdABZwiqIqsWV74GKuhbKtJFewjjhgYoT79l3TVhaZYLfhEYlAzxfkB39R/8Oq JeLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=qoZiuvDEjiWJbWsxrSL7o3MCp/OCY0lxP/iiwVN6jpo=; b=EcunSurlPlQ6Jb/HxVfRv+QTFWuWsXAv0oJeuMZLoeDiRrXBQN/FcMH0aZTvzI1o1L rM2vsb6qi2IDHZZTB3ZlU3/rpjVH0h4gQMptvTBN7PZ9V8kvXe7nC6vqHOkL4wDpgnZq XYXPAY15/qfuan/vuTKzZ/v2J0oyeuPsbPQ0k1nSZ065ctpJP0OtyT+mEbMYU5wO3YUl 0bRkf/GTlNnVldH93qFFFc5Zd0hMjlT1KfFf0ew4QUgkVnM+Fq8zhRA/u18T4LIpXN+U QmOPckfTuNotN/rEXT/aV/7a2q8thONB4Fsv4m+6Hh6ceYCHf7M2C+2yjO1sR2DKXRzS TO0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QxrML3H7Hz/eFWD7908bFJPHCeJfDpTFGpbMGOUpnDwOppUwP xDZkuf6jc9wvJY7iJAygJdk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzr9YD+05U5JySt45u0e+Ca4e+GZmzHwTfQqo/vdQmMl1hemEOQUIV13PAlA91JHX7cEkcz6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4806:: with SMTP id l6mr5474561wrq.389.1612535511862; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:1895:ed47:463:a394]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 9sm13361533wra.80.2021.02.05.06.31.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:31:51 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: <67CB9F82-7D06-4F22-98A2-CFBD5CFF8116@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A7D8DC0D-F5E6-4F64-8D5D-5DBF40142CD9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 14:31:48 +0000 In-Reply-To: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant , int-area , "flexip@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , Lin Han To: Jiayihao References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 14:31:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A7D8DC0D-F5E6-4F64-8D5D-5DBF40142CD9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao wrote: >=20 > - As mentioned in "http://acticom.de/internet-of-things-iot/ = ", a typical payload size = equals just around 25 bytes per IPv6 datagram. Thus typically the saving = rate will be ((14+10+25)-(14+40+25))/(14+40+25)=3D38%. So typically, a = 38% saving may be a good motivation for having a short address. However, = we'd like to postpone quantitative analysis after we have a rough = consensus on problems due to addressing aspects.=20 Sorry, but I think you have to discuss the quantitive aspects of the = problem as part of understanding whether this is worth doing or not. You have to ask if a 38% saving is worth the huge CAPEX and OPEX costs = and feed that into the discussion. If we are going to argue for short packets that is another matter, and = that would not simply be an addressing discussion. For example in a lot of applications the traffic is between a device and = a gateway. If we allowed an out of band session setup we could support = something like 500K sessions in the network with just a 4 byte network = header. So classic Ether + Classic IPv6 + 25 =3D 79B Reduced address in IPv6 =3D 49B (0.62 of size) 4B n/w layer =3D 43B (0.54 of size) So about 50% is the best we can achieve. Of course many of you will = realise that there exists a 4B session oriented packet format and is one = that almost every router already supports. I think that this means that we need to have the conversation about = small addresses within a much bigger context in terms of style of = network communication and intended outcome and the scenarios document = does not really do that analysis, but if the goal is simply minimum = address size we do have an approach that we could in principle deploy = today between a device and a gateway, and we should explore that. If the requirements is a connectionless service then we really have to = understand how to balance the economic cost of deploying a new packet = design against a 38% saving of packet size. Best regards Stewart --Apple-Mail=_A7D8DC0D-F5E6-4F64-8D5D-5DBF40142CD9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com>= wrote:

- As = mentioned in "http://acticom.de/internet-of-things-iot/", a typical = payload size equals just around 25 bytes per IPv6 datagram. Thus = typically the saving rate will be = ((14+10+25)-(14+40+25))/(14+40+25)=3D38%. So typically, a 38% saving may = be a good motivation for having a short address. However, we'd like to = postpone quantitative analysis after we have a rough consensus on = problems due to addressing = aspects. 

Sorry, but I think you have to discuss the quantitive aspects = of the problem as part of understanding whether this is worth doing or = not.

You have = to ask if a  38% saving is worth the huge CAPEX and OPEX costs and = feed that into the discussion.

If we are going to argue for short = packets that is another matter, and that would not simply be an = addressing discussion.

For example in a lot of applications the traffic is between a = device and a gateway. If we allowed an out of band session setup we = could support something like 500K sessions in the network with just a 4 = byte network header.

So classic Ether + = Classic IPv6 + 25 =3D 79B
   Reduced address in IPv6 =           =3D 49B (0.62 of = size)
   4B n/w layer           =            =3D 43B (0.54 of = size)

So about 50% = is the best we can achieve. Of course many of you will realise that = there exists a 4B session oriented packet format and is one that almost = every router already supports.

I think that this means that we need to = have the conversation about small addresses within a much bigger context = in terms of style of network communication and intended outcome and the = scenarios document does not really do that analysis, but if the goal is = simply minimum address size we do have an approach that we could in = principle deploy today between a device and a gateway, and we should = explore that.

If= the requirements is a connectionless service then we really have to = understand how to balance the economic cost of deploying a new packet = design against a 38% saving of packet size.

Best regards

Stewart






= --Apple-Mail=_A7D8DC0D-F5E6-4F64-8D5D-5DBF40142CD9-- From nobody Fri Feb 5 06:46:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F36C3A1207; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:46:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2obE4AmhVx6L; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65F3D3A11EA; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 190so6245404wmz.0; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:46:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=HTmxIjM9eDD1AO0bbHdCt6tazotQzM7ght25QkLkTpo=; b=SEG9ORfNzl1Lf2QvRzt+NGLED+3GjX3I126+7TxkUa5QGbQbV6Lg0+0IPvUyjt64js UNLszW3jSSfxiyq3fJ45yc/kadRdfKGHXnZUt4JwSChSEMNZJy2rYcPWhO9zAqukR85m i1YvPE4yl0Y0sNlKJtZFvkSKeR6upUqonPi8IGBrUuwMi/Nw5XrtQcHt9cK0JXAUEFZO 2c7HTLqd4nCLiPva3aFRp5KAbILq5LLyvEgG4vhcItyHo2+FXoLi0Znchnm0Rrxvuv2c +QrAkTgmvU/53TjALsfJvo851h/q8flvKiLcxfvuaNLOeIMkYJXVGLk75NIwtyXVkwjp e/ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=HTmxIjM9eDD1AO0bbHdCt6tazotQzM7ght25QkLkTpo=; b=jAFrWsqRGqk3c8JH+BImCRGArxXvAmX4T4rn4hHcJ9ahZsfkmXtV2dkNpUQTYCJMF2 f2PXooWgrqNAFhDkI1CSc29WhGHnq9OMlEmYlMoWrqBY3dmCEAJqPwA4g2gO+6I4VF6o XKFBciEKJU/iro7VVQeJOVlyKirKq1nKkpIhqdtmqbBStZ0M6fHBLQxJrvK4NTGStm0e F0hrgy8z9WiaHD6fr7+0ZM3AlQfzow0g8pKT6meHvCpAnVk2cBZKuRGB4pivTaU2hrYR tOtVuec9PekmUoD0cbhYLhVWdoF2wqbtGuCk4JjPvWnZPiLSbFcwGkojZaztQGgkrQZy r+pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tLRWWcNOrgNk3sJQ4i9zqDXoW8Rh5c38YWQvGxdquDDM2oi8a twUUFUma89Wq21Szk/+1OPA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgy3Pat++bQmpXhZAy1U9a0V82POfTWGs/j+QHP9GAtLv0M05AWh4swrl/G4YyZ50yKJR8IQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:22c8:: with SMTP id 8mr3840947wmg.11.1612536383654; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:46:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:4405:51c9:cf5c:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d10sm12068042wrn.88.2021.02.05.06.46.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:46:23 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: <58156BC9-6153-4C43-81B8-9E7F38AADE56@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B369B634-95A0-4FC1-B228-EA86842A1CFE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 14:46:20 +0000 In-Reply-To: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant , int-area , "flexip@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , Lin Han To: Jiayihao References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 14:46:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B369B634-95A0-4FC1-B228-EA86842A1CFE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao wrote: >=20 > =20 > - The header format could be described either in separate draft or be = included in previous draft. The reason we have not provide a header = format yet is that the address format itself is already a complex topic, = so it's better for us to discuss the address first (as well as the = problems and gaps), thus we can have a better understanding if a = flexible address structure is a promising way to go. Again I disagree, you cannot entirely divorce the discussions. The problem has to be solved as a whole and decisions about the packet = effect decisions about the address structure. For example if the new = packet is much larger than IPv6 the case for short addresses becomes = even weaker. If I look at the address design that you have proposed this is dominated = by the short address constraints. If short addresses (in the physical = sense rather than a logical sense where they are the suffix of a larger = address) turn out to be a trivial efficiency saving, then we would = almost certainly use another address design. For example

In my honor opinion= , there are substantial solid work that IETF can tackle  in the contro= l plane to securely coordinate labels between different network domains to = ensure end to end services: such as between 5G Core to N6 IP network, between SDWAN to SR domain, etc.

 https://tools.ietf.org/html/= draft-yiakoumis-network-tokens-02 is a good example. The approach proposed by the Network Tokens (JSON based= Web token) might be overkill, but something along the line (but simpler) w= ould be beneficial for end to end services.

 

If APN only wants t= o focus on the Data Plane, as suggested in the charter of construct another= layer of label to data packets, then you have to utilize some existing con= trol plane methods to negotiate the new label added between domains, such as  using the IPsec IKE method = between controllers of the two domains to negotiate the labels used in the = data plane

 

My two cents, =

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: = Apn <apn-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 7:40 PM
To: apn@ietf.org
Cc: int-area@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org
Subject: [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN

 =

Dear all,

 

You may have seen the BoF announcement https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bofs/.

 

The instructions on the next step of APN are officia= lly confirmed,

1.       Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and INTA= REA meetings at IETF110.

2.       A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be schedu= led after IETF110 to go into more depth on this t= opic.

 

Any suggestions on how to have fruitful discussions = and progress the work in IETF are very welcomed. Thank you!

 

̶= 0;The Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF proposal was focused on develo= ping a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey, and use an identi= fier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-, and service-level requirements at the network layer. = This proposal was made for several previous IETF meetings and will benefit = from further focused discussion at IETF 110 during the Routing Area Working= Group (RTGWG) and Internet Area Working Group (INTAREA) meetings. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IET= F 110 will go into more depth on this topic. Discussion continues on the&nb= sp;Appl= ication-aware Networking = mailing list. ”

=  

Best = regards,

Shupi= ng

 

as used in ISO 8474 is an extremely = extensible format at a cost of a two byte overhead, and would allow the = address designers to proceed independently from the packet designers and = develop new address types during the deployment lifetime of the = protocol. This is unlike the approach in the drafts we are discussing = where a lot of discussions are proposed up front and where the = development of the address architecture is significantly constrained. Best regards Stewart --Apple-Mail=_B369B634-95A0-4FC1-B228-EA86842A1CFE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com>= wrote:

 
- The header format = could be described either in separate draft or be included in previous = draft. The reason we have not provide a header format yet is that the = address format itself is already a complex topic, so it's better for us = to discuss the address first (as well as the problems and gaps), thus we = can have a better understanding if a flexible address structure is a = promising way to go.

Again I disagree, you cannot entirely divorce = the discussions.

The problem has to be solved as a whole and decisions about = the packet effect decisions about the address structure. For example if = the new packet is much larger than IPv6  the case for short = addresses becomes even weaker.

If I look at the address design that = you have proposed this is dominated by the short address constraints. If = short addresses (in the physical sense rather than a logical sense where = they are the suffix of a larger address) turn out to be a trivial = efficiency saving, then we would almost certainly use another address = design.

For = example <len><family><address> as used in ISO 8474 is = an extremely extensible format at a cost of a two byte overhead, and = would allow the address designers to proceed independently from the = packet designers and develop new address types during the deployment = lifetime of the protocol. This is unlike the approach in the drafts we = are discussing where a lot of discussions are proposed up front and = where the development of the address architecture is significantly = constrained.

Best regards

Stewart



= --Apple-Mail=_B369B634-95A0-4FC1-B228-EA86842A1CFE-- From nobody Fri Feb 5 06:58:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA36B3A1213; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:58:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzd4azr1COSz; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x334.google.com (mail-wm1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9456C3A1221; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x334.google.com with SMTP id l12so6274919wmq.2; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=hCa1OqCFwa/Nl30dTiTMusqwDLxkIyw3iEWPP9gotGA=; b=ORawHo/FNvcIQFC4V4CxHC0VLFLXyZuV6EvnK5705bwc3iz3DCeobpN5kSmQ1AMrRX htQXlRhVsj4PN46yxuSHXV3L9FSnYYT66++a+v79ZHKyismGgv9WCKwKvOwSsRuaW6P4 SniJENb3npR96b/WQC09UnkmwovlK0Kwt0j6RyzYTdQ6t+sjit60ea5LuZYi0WHxOJNd qFqA8OLLPtRk7Ha0hU3EzagTiuc1iFUD9B6a8snGqV4ROmHrfKWrprb7+j0o9Auen2EY TrWE2XhaE68/wMwFuum+6/UvFSOT9eF2TYPCBXjNGBj5GsVyawTcSuEt9anyqKLImeKB arzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=hCa1OqCFwa/Nl30dTiTMusqwDLxkIyw3iEWPP9gotGA=; b=MMb7bBi8g1l89u54uoWJQGq2Yc1SaNJLLDd0zDYqcKhGUPvzEiFZaZDLH9bEfB/2+8 i73s5vek6HhlRUVQ5wN8RWvFQbEHAvxnAC7vnbgRDRI1SGTQ9JS4v0NQ1lD2lGAfmHe+ 5YPyWrHetXfCXlXMVZvfE8xoe+9EXZfGZyu89LopF+9/6JLj5XhcmxfNy4oC+DwyycAM UgpNCxHSyxSKAXe2fgNcQNWKUqcy6mexCEJbXECxCAY9JXELiJDrx69rF2C2hnAX/kg5 i8I11Ydw1dSkpI0DMxwgx/lf5g8gABNmaAqNfn+h1xbkLcyYbCPe4r4lsuDyCKHqmPLO Xuvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532VE4ntoL0mjPIBnUucFjEl7WB9ZWjtzHF52PABjyPnGaBVWS+N HsrO2CnOOsD/fVPd//N8AVc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynMCwRrXeCppI5BGTMifCtxtbrGgVHK9UEbwP+IPbxbv7JLhUbzSCpZdpi7+9uLXwnIqZAsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:8083:: with SMTP id b125mr3927349wmd.188.1612537124073; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:4405:51c9:cf5c:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j14sm14452612wrd.36.2021.02.05.06.58.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:58:43 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B40EF36E-B1A2-4BCE-81B0-5DC71B9798C0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 14:58:42 +0000 In-Reply-To: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant , int-area , "flexip@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , Lin Han To: Jiayihao References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 14:58:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B40EF36E-B1A2-4BCE-81B0-5DC71B9798C0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao wrote: >=20 > - Indeed, the network scale of limited domain is supposed to be less = that IPv6, but it doesn't mean the address space should be strictly less = than 128-bit. If the space of the address is abundant enough, the public = key could be embedded without truncation (compare to CGA in IPv6) for = certain security purpose. Interesting, what are the advantages in adding the signature of the = address in the address as opposed to carrying it in a different field? The disadvantage is that you bind the address to the signature algorithm = which you would not want to do since you would expect to change the = signature algorithm during the lifetime of the protocol. Also would you really want to feed the signature into the longest match = engine? Of course you could and there are some advantages in that you = look up both the address and it signature, but I think you loose longest = match capability and you significantly increase the size of the TCAM or = other FIB design memory, and that memory is very expensive as it = determines the line rate of the forwarder. So this points back to the need for a holistic discussion of what we are = trying to achieve, the extent to which modifying existing protocols = satisfies that need, and whether (given the presupposed need for a = gateway) we should be looking for a single protocol, a family of = protocols, or an adaptable protocol. I don=E2=80=99t think we can design the addressing system in the absence = of a discussion on those points. Best regards Stewart --Apple-Mail=_B40EF36E-B1A2-4BCE-81B0-5DC71B9798C0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com>= wrote:

- Indeed, the = network scale of limited domain is supposed to be less that IPv6, but it = doesn't mean the address space should be strictly less than 128-bit. If = the space of the address is abundant enough, the public key could be = embedded without truncation (compare to CGA in IPv6) for certain = security purpose.

Interesting, what are the advantages in adding the signature = of the address in the address as opposed to carrying it in a different = field?

The = disadvantage is that you bind the address to the signature algorithm = which you would not want to do since you would expect to change the = signature algorithm during the lifetime of the protocol.

Also would you really = want to feed the signature into the longest match engine? Of course you = could and there are some advantages in that you look up both the address = and it signature, but I think you loose longest match capability and you = significantly increase the size of the TCAM or other FIB design memory, = and that memory is very expensive as it determines the line rate of the = forwarder.

So = this points back to the need for a holistic discussion of what we are = trying to achieve, the extent to which modifying existing protocols = satisfies that need, and whether (given the presupposed need for a = gateway) we should be looking for a single protocol, a family of = protocols, or an adaptable protocol.

I don=E2=80=99t think we can design the = addressing system in the absence of a discussion on those = points.

Best = regards

Stewart


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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E8223A1236; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 07:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml735-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4DXJgS1bgPz67kbT; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 23:07:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggemi760-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.146) by fraeml735-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.216) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:12:16 +0100 Received: from lhreml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.50) by dggemi760-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 23:12:13 +0800 Received: from lhreml701-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.201.68.196]) by lhreml701-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.201.68.196]) with mapi id 15.01.2106.006; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 15:12:11 +0000 From: Dirk Trossen To: Stewart Bryant , Jiayihao CC: Lin Han , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , int-area , "flexip@ietf.org" , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP Thread-Index: AQHW+8983QgEtIk60kOK5cU8FWUTUKpJqfSQ Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 15:12:11 +0000 Message-ID: <854102e6d17441fcabb16748245b18af@huawei.com> References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.217.125] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_854102e6d17441fcabb16748245b18afhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: 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10:24:54 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: <8EFF0C7E-32B2-4C30-B27A-6C165BA7A30B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E87FE328-9084-4838-8BE2-F75252ED1E5B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:24:52 +0000 In-Reply-To: <854102e6d17441fcabb16748245b18af@huawei.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant , Jiayihao , Lin Han , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , int-area , "flexip@ietf.org" , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" To: Dirk Trossen References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> <854102e6d17441fcabb16748245b18af@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 18:24:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E87FE328-9084-4838-8BE2-F75252ED1E5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Dirk There may be some material that you can use from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bryant-arch-fwd-layer-uc-01 And=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bryant-arch-fwd-layer-ps/ - Stewart > On 5 Feb 2021, at 15:12, Dirk Trossen wrote: >=20 > Stewart, all, > =20 > As Yihao pointed out, we are working on an update to the draft to = focus the discussion on the communication scenarios and problems arising = in those scenarios. In that sense, we agree with your desire for a = holistic discussion and see this upcoming update as one of the next = towards that. > =20 > With that in mind, I suggest that we continue the discussions after = this upcoming update since it is not the intention at this stage to = propose any solutions or constrain any thinking about solutions but to = agree that problems may exist that will need to be addressed. > =20 > Best regards, > =20 > Dirk > =20 > From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart = Bryant > Sent: 05 February 2021 15:59 > To: Jiayihao > Cc: Lin Han ; = draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org; int-area = ; flexip@ietf.org; sarikaya2012@gmail.com; = draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao > wrote: > =20 > - Indeed, the network scale of limited domain is supposed to be less = that IPv6, but it doesn't mean the address space should be strictly less = than 128-bit. If the space of the address is abundant enough, the public = key could be embedded without truncation (compare to CGA in IPv6) for = certain security purpose. > =20 > Interesting, what are the advantages in adding the signature of the = address in the address as opposed to carrying it in a different field? > =20 > The disadvantage is that you bind the address to the signature = algorithm which you would not want to do since you would expect to = change the signature algorithm during the lifetime of the protocol. > =20 > Also would you really want to feed the signature into the longest = match engine? Of course you could and there are some advantages in that = you look up both the address and it signature, but I think you loose = longest match capability and you significantly increase the size of the = TCAM or other FIB design memory, and that memory is very expensive as it = determines the line rate of the forwarder. > =20 > So this points back to the need for a holistic discussion of what we = are trying to achieve, the extent to which modifying existing protocols = satisfies that need, and whether (given the presupposed need for a = gateway) we should be looking for a single protocol, a family of = protocols, or an adaptable protocol. > =20 > I don=E2=80=99t think we can design the addressing system in the = absence of a discussion on those points. > =20 > Best regards > =20 > Stewart > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail=_E87FE328-9084-4838-8BE2-F75252ED1E5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear = Dirk

There may be = some material that you can use from

And 

- Stewart

On 5 Feb = 2021, at 15:12, Dirk Trossen <dirk.trossen@huawei.com> wrote:

Stewart, all,

 

As Yihao pointed out, we are working on an update = to the draft to focus the discussion on the communication scenarios and = problems arising in those scenarios. In that sense, we agree with your desire for a holistic discussion and = see this upcoming update as one of the next towards that.

 

With that in mind, I suggest that we continue the = discussions after this upcoming update since it is not the intention at = this stage to propose any solutions or constrain any thinking about solutions but to agree that problems = may exist that will need to be addressed.

 

Best regards,

 

Dirk

 

From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
Sent: 05 February 2021 15:59
To: Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com>
Cc: Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com>; draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org; int-area = <int-area@ietf.org>; flexip@ietf.org; sarikaya2012@gmail.com; draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in = FlexIP

 

 



On 5 Feb 2021, at 12:06, Jiayihao = <jiayihao@huawei.com> wrote:

 

- Indeed, the network scale of limited domain is supposed to = be less that IPv6, but it doesn't mean the address space should be = strictly less than 128-bit. If the space of the address is abundant enough, the public key could be embedded = without truncation (compare to CGA in IPv6) for certain security = purpose.

 

Interesting, what are the = advantages in adding the signature of the address in the address as = opposed to carrying it in a different field?

 

The disadvantage is that you bind = the address to the signature algorithm which you would not want to do = since you would expect to change the signature algorithm during the = lifetime of the protocol.

 

Also would you really want to = feed the signature into the longest match engine? Of course you could = and there are some advantages in that you look up both the address and = it signature, but I think you loose longest match capability and you significantly increase the size of the TCAM or other FIB design = memory, and that memory is very expensive as it determines the line rate = of the forwarder.

 

So this points back to the need = for a holistic discussion of what we are trying to achieve, the extent = to which modifying existing protocols satisfies that need, and whether = (given the presupposed need for a gateway) we should be looking for a single protocol, a family of protocols, or an adaptable = protocol.

 

I don=E2=80=99t think we can = design the addressing system in the absence of a discussion on those = points.

 

Best regards

 

Stewart

 

 


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"draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , int-area , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , Dirk Trossen Thread-Topic: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP Thread-Index: AQHW+89wPmE98P11SU+IcdtOgT5OaKpJJNKAgAA11gCAAWUIcA== Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 08:03:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> <854102e6d17441fcabb16748245b18af@huawei.com> <8EFF0C7E-32B2-4C30-B27A-6C165BA7A30B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8EFF0C7E-32B2-4C30-B27A-6C165BA7A30B@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.181.176] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b9dbf39e23a749f485864f26b89a1f0ehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgVGhlIHNtYWxsIGFkZHJlc3MgdXNl?= =?utf-8?q?_case_in_FlexIP?= X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 08:04:05 -0000 --_000_b9dbf39e23a749f485864f26b89a1f0ehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU3Rld2FydCwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciBhc2tpbmcsIGFuZCBpbmRlZWQgdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9u IGlzIG5vdCByZWFkeSBhbmQgc3RpbGwgcm91Z2guDQoNClRoZSBtYXRlcmlhbHMgeW91IHJlY29t bWVuZCBoaWdobHkgcmVsYXRlIHRvIGl0IGFuZCBwcm92aWRlIGFidW5kYW50IGluZm9ybWF0aW9u LiBJIHdpbGwgcmVhZCB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGFuZCByZWdhcmQgaXQgYXMgYSBnb29kIGlucHV0 IGZvciB1cywgcHJvYmFibHkgdGhpcyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgaW4gc2hhcGluZyBhIGhvbGlzdGljIGRl c2lnbi4NCg0KTWFueSB0aGFua3MsDQpZaWhhbw0KDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6IFN0ZXdhcnQgQnJ5YW50 IFttYWlsdG86c3Rld2FydC5icnlhbnRAZ21haWwuY29tXQ0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDIx5bm0 MuaciDbml6UgMjoyNQ0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBEaXJrIFRyb3NzZW4gPGRpcmsudHJvc3NlbkBodWF3 ZWkuY29tPg0K5oqE6YCBOiBTdGV3YXJ0IEJyeWFudCA8c3Rld2FydC5icnlhbnRAZ21haWwuY29t 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autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zhcj2FwxYap0; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 07:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F259B3A13D1; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 07:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4DXxNq63ykz67lNq; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 23:42:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) by fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 16:45:38 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.210) by fraeml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 16:45:38 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM513-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.33]) by DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 23:45:27 +0800 From: "Liguangpeng (Roc, Network Technology Laboratory)" To: Stewart Bryant , Dirk Trossen CC: Lin Han , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , int-area , Jiayihao , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , "sarikaya2012@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [Flexip] [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP Thread-Index: AQHW+9FfheTGIxxlAE6qDr/w+e0zCapJWqQAgAHpAGA= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:45:27 +0000 Message-ID: <6F4E6B0C717D4641A2B79BC1740D8CF4A8F9CA27@dggemm513-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <727cfc33b0cb41acaeacc21a33c39d4d@huawei.com> <854102e6d17441fcabb16748245b18af@huawei.com> <8EFF0C7E-32B2-4C30-B27A-6C165BA7A30B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8EFF0C7E-32B2-4C30-B27A-6C165BA7A30B@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.162.77] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6F4E6B0C717D4641A2B79BC1740D8CF4A8F9CA27dggemm513mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [Flexip] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 15:45:47 -0000 --_000_6F4E6B0C717D4641A2B79BC1740D8CF4A8F9CA27dggemm513mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU3Rld2FydCwgRGlyayBhbmQgYWxsLA0KDQpUaGVzZSBkcmFmdHMgYXJlIHNpZ25pZmljYW50 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"draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , int-area Thread-Topic: Using ISO8473 as a network layer to carry flexible addresses Thread-Index: AQHW+isammJINdBrhE6dfBbprA4VBKpOA0yA Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3dd5a712bd2b4fdbb882d860ab2ece82@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.167.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3dd5a712bd2b4fdbb882d860ab2ece82huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogVXNpbmcgSVNPODQ3MyBhcyBhIG5ldHdv?= =?gb2312?b?cmsgbGF5ZXIgdG8gY2FycnkgZmxleGlibGUgYWRkcmVzc2Vz?= X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 09:39:16 -0000 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Hi Stewart,

 

I followed the ISO 847= 3 specification and find that a =A1=B0flexible address structure=A1=B1 is s= imilar to it.

 

ISO 8473 has a variabl= e address length with a <len> field, while for the flexibility descri= bed in the =A1=B0flexible address structure=A1=B1 draft, the flexibility refer to both a) variable length; 2) new semantics. ISO 8473 do cover the = variable length, but semantics is not mentioned in it. So a new semantics c= arried address could be a main difference compared to ISO 8473.<= /span>

 

Thanks,

Yihao

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Stewart Bryant= [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= /span> 2021=C4=EA2=D4=C23=C8=D5 20:50
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org; draft-jia-= flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org; flexip@ietf.org; int-area <int-area@= ietf.org>
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Using ISO8473 as a network layer to carry flexible addresses

 

Re drafts:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure/
https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/=
Since the authors a=
re interested in network layer protocols that support multiple address type=
s and multiple address lengths, I wonder if they have considered using ISO8=
473 as the bearer and developing that to their needs?
ISO 8473 is also kn=
own as ITU X233 (it costs money to download from ISO, but seems to be free =
from the ITU-T site). It is an in force and actually well deployed network =
layer protocol with many similar characteristics to IPv6. The reason that i=
t is deployed is that it is used to support SS7. It also has a very widely =
deployed link-state IGP since IS-IS was developed to support ISO8474 and la=
ter adapted to support IP late run its life. 
It was one of the c=
ontenders for IPv4 replacement, and so there RFCs that authors may study: R=
FC994 is a copy of the late version of the spec in RFC format. Then there i=
s RFC1195 where Ross Callon shows how it works in an IETF environment carry=
ing IETF transport protocols and this eventually became RFC1347 (TUBA), whi=
ch whilst whilst marked Historic in the IETF RFC collection is almost certa=
inly still implementable since the base network layer protocol is still an =
active standard.
It would need some =
work to determine the applicability of the protocol to your application and=
 the feasibility of adding the necessary new address types (due to crowding=
 of the existing address registry) and any other extensions that you might =
need.
Note BTW that it su=
pports source routing functionality and so ought to be usable in an SR envi=
ronment should that be needed.
There would also ne=
ed to be work to see how feasible it would be to implement in a modern NPU,=
 though having implemented it in a hardware assisted microcode platform tha=
t is quite similar to a modern NPU back in the 90s and having got quite cre=
ditable performance I think it is feasible to run this on modern hardware i=
ncluding repurposing the existing longest match engine to look up a number =
of your new address formats. =
There are a bunch o=
f specs here for your convenience although I have not studied the list in d=
etail
http://www.networksorcery.com/=
enp/protocol/clnp.htm
Best regards=
Stewart






 

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"draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: The small address use case in FlexIP Thread-Index: Adb+Adw1h3hprYj0RAOA+X+FLfv9gg== Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 10:05:01 +0000 Message-ID: <1749aa4fe2f44eb8852d1914d2623cb3@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.167.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1749aa4fe2f44eb8852d1914d2623cb3huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 10:05:14 -0000 --_000_1749aa4fe2f44eb8852d1914d2623cb3huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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"draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , int-area To: Jiayihao References: <3dd5a712bd2b4fdbb882d860ab2ece82@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Using ISO8473 as a network layer to carry flexible addresses X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 10:39:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_23E8FCC8-D958-40CA-9D7F-ACE4BB03AA62 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 8 Feb 2021, at 09:39, Jiayihao wrote: >=20 > Hi Stewart, > =20 > I followed the ISO 8473 specification and find that a =E2=80=9Cflexible = address structure=E2=80=9D is similar to it. > =20 > ISO 8473 has a variable address length with a field, while for = the flexibility described in the =E2=80=9Cflexible address structure=E2=80= =9D draft, the flexibility refer to both a) variable length; 2) new = semantics. ISO 8473 do cover the variable length, but semantics is not = mentioned in it. So a new semantics carried address could be a main = difference compared to ISO 8473. > =20 The way that an ISO 8473 address works is that at the protocol level it = has the length - so it definitely supports variable length. Within the = address itself which I think is covered by a different standard, the = address starts with an address family indicator (AFI) which is one = octet, though you could of course expand that by creating subfamilies in = the following octet. The way you get the additional semantics and = multiple address types is through the AFI mechanism.=20 Thus ISO 8473, which as I point out is an international standard and = thus avoids a lot of SDO politics is a protocol capable of supporting = variable length and variable types and thus variable semantics. You mention TRIE, when we built the high performance Decnet routers many = years ago we had an ASIC TRIE engine and it used to process, Decnet PhV, = Decnet PhIV (native and embedded in PhV), IPv4 and IEEE MAC addresses = from the same table. It would have done IPv6 address if they has been = invented when we built the product. So there is an international standard and a forwarding framework that = works for most of what you want to do. Whether you want to take a = different approach or not is up to you, but you do have a way of = finessing many of the standards issues that you face with a new network = layer protocol. - Stewart > Thanks, > Yihao > =20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Stewart Bryant = [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com ]=20 > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 = 20:50 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: = draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org = ; = draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org = ; flexip@ietf.org = ; int-area > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Stewart Bryant > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Using ISO8473 as a network layer to carry flexible = addresses > =20 > Re drafts: > =20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-stru= cture/ = > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure/ = > Since the authors are interested in network layer protocols that = support multiple address types and multiple address lengths, I wonder if = they have considered using ISO8473 as the bearer and developing that to = their needs? > ISO 8473 is also known as ITU X233 (it costs money to download from = ISO, but seems to be free from the ITU-T site). It is an in force and = actually well deployed network layer protocol with many similar = characteristics to IPv6. The reason that it is deployed is that it is = used to support SS7. It also has a very widely deployed link-state IGP = since IS-IS was developed to support ISO8474 and later adapted to = support IP late run its life.=20 > It was one of the contenders for IPv4 replacement, and so there RFCs = that authors may study: RFC994 is a copy of the late version of the spec = in RFC format. Then there is RFC1195 where Ross Callon shows how it = works in an IETF environment carrying IETF transport protocols and this = eventually became RFC1347 (TUBA), which whilst whilst marked Historic in = the IETF RFC collection is almost certainly still implementable since = the base network layer protocol is still an active standard. > It would need some work to determine the applicability of the protocol = to your application and the feasibility of adding the necessary new = address types (due to crowding of the existing address registry) and any = other extensions that you might need. > Note BTW that it supports source routing functionality and so ought to = be usable in an SR environment should that be needed. > There would also need to be work to see how feasible it would be to = implement in a modern NPU, though having implemented it in a hardware = assisted microcode platform that is quite similar to a modern NPU back = in the 90s and having got quite creditable performance I think it is = feasible to run this on modern hardware including repurposing the = existing longest match engine to look up a number of your new address = formats.=20 > There are a bunch of specs here for your convenience although I have = not studied the list in detail > http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/protocol/clnp.htm = > Best regards > Stewart --Apple-Mail=_23E8FCC8-D958-40CA-9D7F-ACE4BB03AA62 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 8 Feb 2021, at 09:39, Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com>= wrote:

Hi = Stewart,
 
I followed the ISO 8473 specification and find that a = =E2=80=9Cflexible address structure=E2=80=9D is similar to it.
 
ISO= 8473 has a variable address length with a <len> field, while for = the flexibility described in the =E2=80=9Cflexible address structure=E2=80= =9D draft, the flexibility refer to both a) variable length; 2) new = semantics. ISO 8473 do cover the variable length, but semantics is not = mentioned in it. So a new semantics carried address could be a main = difference compared to ISO 8473.
 

The way that an ISO 8473 address works is that at = the protocol level it has the length - so it definitely supports = variable length. Within the address itself which I think is covered by a = different standard, the address starts with an address family indicator = (AFI) which is one octet, though you could of course expand that by = creating subfamilies in the following octet. The way you get the = additional semantics and multiple address types is through the AFI = mechanism. 

Thus ISO 8473, = which as I point out is an international standard and thus avoids a lot = of SDO politics is a protocol capable of supporting variable length and = variable types and thus variable semantics.

You mention TRIE, when we built the high = performance Decnet routers many years ago we had an ASIC TRIE engine and = it used to process, Decnet PhV, Decnet PhIV (native and embedded in = PhV), IPv4 and IEEE MAC addresses from the same table. It would have = done IPv6 address if they has been invented when we built the = product.

So there is an = international standard and a forwarding framework that works for most of = what you want to do. Whether you want to take a different approach or = not is up to you, but you do have a way of finessing many of the = standards issues that you face with a new network layer = protocol.

- Stewart


Thanks,
Yihao
 
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] 
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9= =97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 20:50
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org; draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org; flexip@ietf.org; int-area <int-area@ietf.org>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Using ISO8473 as a network = layer to carry flexible addresses
 
Re= drafts:
 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-a=
ddress-structure/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jia-flex-ip-address-stru=
cture/
Since the authors are =
interested in network layer protocols that support multiple address =
types and multiple address lengths, I wonder if they have considered =
using ISO8473 as the bearer and developing that to their =
needs?
ISO 8473 is also known as =
ITU X233 (it costs money to download from ISO, but seems to be free from =
the ITU-T site). It is an in force and actually well deployed network =
layer protocol with many similar characteristics to IPv6. The reason =
that it is deployed is that it is used to support SS7. It also has a =
very widely deployed link-state IGP since IS-IS was developed to support =
ISO8474 and later adapted to support IP late run its life. 
It was one of the contenders for IPv4 replacement, and so =
there RFCs that authors may study: RFC994 is a copy of the late version =
of the spec in RFC format. Then there is RFC1195 where Ross Callon shows =
how it works in an IETF environment carrying IETF transport protocols =
and this eventually became RFC1347 (TUBA), which whilst whilst marked =
Historic in the IETF RFC collection is almost certainly still =
implementable since the base network layer protocol is still an active =
standard.
It would need some work to =
determine the applicability of the protocol to your application and the =
feasibility of adding the necessary new address types (due to crowding =
of the existing address registry) and any other extensions that you =
might need.
Note BTW that it supports =
source routing functionality and so ought to be usable in an SR =
environment should that be needed.
There =
would also need to be work to see how feasible it would be to implement =
in a modern NPU, though having implemented it in a hardware assisted =
microcode platform that is quite similar to a modern NPU back in the 90s =
and having got quite creditable performance I think it is feasible to =
run this on modern hardware including repurposing the existing longest =
match engine to look up a number of your new address formats. =
There are a bunch of specs =
here for your convenience although I have not studied the list in =
detail
http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/protocol/clnp.htm<=
span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">
Best regards
Stewart
=
= --Apple-Mail=_23E8FCC8-D958-40CA-9D7F-ACE4BB03AA62-- From nobody Mon Feb 8 03:31:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF10A3A1632; Mon, 8 Feb 2021 03:31:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-0qz3eFesd3; Mon, 8 Feb 2021 03:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B54F3A1631; Mon, 8 Feb 2021 03:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id g6so3649852wrs.11; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 03:31:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=p37olEaN6kGcC+XF1mNFzKz2TtHIZWExKIBISJYFskU=; b=eF/QXL3XR9jrxD5pE4jEZ7zFe8Pttqwji89W4DbVT7/49Ptqu00p9c9Z7yFuiRjR/6 Pit2OAdvdAqSp6xP7StHXqvpd2oFF/TrQh2QM7WIKLI+4Kp4/Ppxwv8FTknC7B4Rqqdp lIU8OD6oRPkyfgDJGFBRhzSpL5nitjYhs1NAniZhXdMmR70Od2t8saHt7ZD9pVD4bn1T IsfkxAEUqSnbDn0igaRK3DDYy1TdsgSLt8yOAMxLbikE6p8MYeZDrjaCZ09dPR5GqAox vEZVgsSYW4J1dV6KLKr0R/PlTWNJw3UJZMW/Hq/RsmtLsTkFuPaHMphnsMwv2kDAjaGB +bZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=p37olEaN6kGcC+XF1mNFzKz2TtHIZWExKIBISJYFskU=; b=t+hqEOiRklV8tt7px/FjMqUole9lbdblMkOV8OIrh5+6iXNX5dUxfeIIDH4u0tECk/ jfoo4kEQMZJwMwMx5NWLWy0ugcDnUFia654v41ICn93nwZsicok2bwVqCk7BJKiXmcnT 93Zr9JHpJB6OdHfIIIJNM5w6B2skzYpx/QU4hKUNhq8rmyyw+hcjDQ7KFSXOg66GgitP mV/a8w0MdoRH5Wk9CDaTJ9B00M4iSBW1OIfElu8te2nViP0SNJ1qdJ+f3JVg3o0x14Sz XWRXKJT1q0d96rmZeLsUs9Bo4LNnY0bD/EhQEnBhXj7lh2WZ5zsgPd6VLUig+tuwDxuW xMPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533FmanIypD/7EjVZ+Fpc+dcdBgoJZZ1jfQ4ikkJIzQtMHyQyQOk wA2gsD4zxw/fMi9b2ITZGKo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiXhjFpl62zcjeIFRB0FMO7hJaUEicAGspBBTfRCMY3vTdNrmTugkp5LgqO4TqDNcduepgzQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a501:: with SMTP id i1mr6369687wrb.149.1612783908713; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 03:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:852c:66f3:e724:be65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t15sm19730197wmi.48.2021.02.08.03.31.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Feb 2021 03:31:48 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: <1A1B8B65-5806-42FA-9E4D-893855653E98@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1E95D612-DED5-4C59-B393-D9F1C8394F15" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 11:31:46 +0000 In-Reply-To: <1749aa4fe2f44eb8852d1914d2623cb3@huawei.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant , int-area , "draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" To: Jiayihao References: <1749aa4fe2f44eb8852d1914d2623cb3@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 11:31:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1E95D612-DED5-4C59-B393-D9F1C8394F15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The problem with this approach is that you only secure the address and = not the rest of the packet, so you end up with two crypto functions to = execute. Also there are other contenders for the suffix such as the arrival = action as per network programming, and the perhaps per hop action as per = foam. Now I suppose that this simply means a much longer address and the = semantics of the stuff that follows the prefix is defined by the = address, but then I think that it is better to simply call that a blob = defined by the prefix rather with no formal semantics in the protocol = and leave the definition of the blob to the network application = designers. There is clearly quite a lot to study in terms of multi-semantics which = I think really should be taken out and put in its own draft.=20 - Stewart > On 8 Feb 2021, at 10:05, Jiayihao wrote: >=20 > As for address embedding public key, it need not to carry any = algorithm in the address. It would be much better to carry the public = key by address, while indicate the algorithm by protocol. I think CGA is = a good instance for involve address in cryptography. For forwarding = efficiency, a public key can be only set as a suffix, thus forwarder = could process the prefix only, and thus the cryptography related stuff = may not hinder the looking up efficiency.=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail=_1E95D612-DED5-4C59-B393-D9F1C8394F15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The = problem with this approach is that you only secure the address and not = the rest of the packet, so you end up with two crypto functions to = execute.

Also there = are other contenders for the suffix such as the arrival action as per = network programming, and the perhaps per hop action as per foam. Now I = suppose that this simply means a much longer address and the semantics = of the stuff that follows the prefix is defined by the address, but then = I think that it is better to simply call that a blob defined by the = prefix rather with no formal semantics in the protocol and leave the = definition of the blob to the network application designers.

There is clearly quite a = lot to study in terms of multi-semantics which I think really should be = taken out and put in its own draft. 

- Stewart

On 8 Feb = 2021, at 10:05, Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com> wrote:

As = for address embedding public key, it need not to carry any algorithm in = the address. It would be much better to carry the public key by address, = while indicate the algorithm by protocol. I think CGA is a good instance = for involve address in cryptography. For forwarding efficiency, a public = key can be only set as a suffix, thus forwarder could process the prefix = only, and thus the cryptography related stuff may not hinder the looking = up efficiency. 
 

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"draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org" , "draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org" , "flexip@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: The small address use case in FlexIP Thread-Index: Adb+lRq8bhXAB77uTtacQg0udOtOUw== Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 03:39:04 +0000 Message-ID: <68749199f08b4d288dce213047ed2611@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.167.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_68749199f08b4d288dce213047ed2611huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 03:39:13 -0000 --_000_68749199f08b4d288dce213047ed2611huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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g4NTseAbtdD8Nw9nqhuY2cDNgBSroiSKUMjFglfTg5RZZvlk3GsngwUZVOsvPE2G5hCCNs2KzF3EYRuj1xy9iQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR13MB2919 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 04:47:50 -0000 --_000_BYAPR13MB41971789F8DEF433558B9E4BD98E9BYAPR13MB4197namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stewart, Isn=92t it good to have separate crypto functions for the payload and the a= ddress? With separate public keys, for payload they are only exchanged betw= een the 2 end points and for addresses by select entities responsible for f= orwarding. -Kiran From: Int-area on behalf of Stewart Bryant Date: Monday, February 8, 2021 at 03:32 To: Jiayihao Cc: draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org , int-area , d= raft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP The problem with this approach is that you only secure the address and not = the rest of the packet, so you end up with two crypto functions to execute. Also there are other contenders for the suffix such as the arrival action a= s per network programming, and the perhaps per hop action as per foam. Now = I suppose that this simply means a much longer address and the semantics of= the stuff that follows the prefix is defined by the address, but then I th= ink that it is better to simply call that a blob defined by the prefix rath= er with no formal semantics in the protocol and leave the definition of the= blob to the network application designers. There is clearly quite a lot to study in terms of multi-semantics which I t= hink really should be taken out and put in its own draft. - Stewart On 8 Feb 2021, at 10:05, Jiayihao > wrote: As for address embedding public key, it need not to carry any algorithm in = the address. It would be much better to carry the public key by address, wh= ile indicate the algorithm by protocol. I think CGA is a good instance for = involve address in cryptography. For forwarding efficiency, a public key ca= n be only set as a suffix, thus forwarder could process the prefix only, an= d thus the cryptography related stuff may not hinder the looking up efficie= ncy. --_000_BYAPR13MB41971789F8DEF433558B9E4BD98E9BYAPR13MB4197namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Stewart,

Isn=92t it good to have separate crypto functions fo= r the payload and the address? With separate public keys, for payload they = are only exchanged between the 2 end points and for addresses by select ent= ities responsible for forwarding.

-Kiran

 

From: Int-area <int-ar= ea-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmai= l.com>
Date: Monday, February 8, 2021 at 03:32
To: Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com>
Cc: draft-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org <draf= t-jia-scenarios-flexible-address-structure@ietf.org>, int-area <int-a= rea@ietf.org>, draft-jia-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org <draft-ji= a-flex-ip-address-structure@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] The small address use case in FlexIP

The problem with this approach is that you only secu= re the address and not the rest of the packet, so you end up with two crypt= o functions to execute.

 

Also there are other contenders for the suffix such = as the arrival action as per network programming, and the perhaps per hop a= ction as per foam. Now I suppose that this simply means a much longer addre= ss and the semantics of the stuff that follows the prefix is defined by the address, but then I think that i= t is better to simply call that a blob defined by the prefix rather with no= formal semantics in the protocol and leave the definition of the blob to t= he network application designers.

 

There is clearly quite a lot to study in terms of mu= lti-semantics which I think really should be taken out and put in its own d= raft. 

 

- Stewart



On 8 Feb 2021, at 10:05, Jiayihao <jiayihao@huawei.com> wrote:

 

As fo= r address embedding public key, it need not to carry any algorithm in the a= ddress. It would be much better to carry the public key by address, while i= ndicate the algorithm by protocol. I think CGA is a good instance for involve address in cryptography. For forw= arding efficiency, a public key can be only set as a suffix, thus forwarder= could process the prefix only, and thus the cryptography related stuff may= not hinder the looking up efficiency. 

 = ;

 

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Tue, 09 Feb 2021 19:48:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1988FFD3@dggeml512-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1988FFD3@dggeml512-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 22:48:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" Cc: "apn@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" , "liupengyjy@outlook.com" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="000000000000569dd605baf34675" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:26 -0000 --000000000000569dd605baf34675 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000569dd505baf34674" --000000000000569dd505baf34674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Shuping Welcome and much obliged to be part of the APN team!! My throughs are that we would cater each presentation based on the WG audience so let=E2=80=99s say for 6MAN we delv= e deep into APN use of extension headers. For Spring it would be about SR-TE steering path instantiation and related caveats and maybe how to manage or extent trust for inter provider SR-TE for network slice. For TEAS we would discuss details of 5G and network slicing framework using APN ID and steering. Just a few examples Kind Regards Gyan On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 5:15 AM Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) < pengshuping@huawei.com> wrote: > Dear Gyan, > > > > Truly appreciate your support on APN! It has been great to have you on > board. Thank you very much! > > > > We would need to discuss more on how to have productive discussions in > these groups and collect feedback so to keep this work progressing. > > > > What would be desired to be heard in these presentations and discussed in > the meetings? Suggestions are very welcomed. > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > > > > *From:* Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 4, 2021 12:16 PM > *To:* liupengyjy@outlook.com > *Cc:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) ; apn@ietf.org; > int-area@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN > > > > > > Hi Shuping > > > > I agree that APN has critical applicability for operators for 5G, DETNET > and even any public or private multicast MVPN streaming video content so > does have quite extensive applicability for operators. > > There also maybe private SR use cases for special SLA application flows > value added service. > > > > As for productive discussions to move the ball forward with APN BOF, I do > agree with having discussions where network operators can share their > experiences and how APN can benefit so in that light as you stated IntAre= a > and RTGWG are a good start. > > GROW maybe useful for in the global internet routing context and how APN > can play a role. > > > > I think DETNET would be good for applicability statement, and Spring, > 6MAN and TEAS maybe good from a APN architecture and design framework as > APN leverages IPv6 data plane EH headers and utilizes traffic steering SR= v6 > forwarding plane and also gets into 5G network slicing so then TEAS comes > into play and NS network slicing architecture. > > > > I would be happy to present APN architecture and applicability at IETF 11= 0. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Gyan > > > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:34 PM liupengyjy@outlook.com < > liupengyjy@outlook.com> wrote: > > It's good news that APN can be fully discussed in rtg and intarea' > meetings. > > > > There have been many drafts of APN technology and scenarios. As an > operator, we think APN is valuable and worthy of discussion and progress. > > > > Regards, > > Peng Liu(CMCC) > > > > ---Original--- > > *From:* "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" > > *Date:* Thu, Feb 4, 2021 09:39 AM > > *To:* "apn@ietf.org"; > > *Cc:* "int-area@ietf.org";"rtgwg@ietf.org"< > rtgwg@ietf.org>; > > *Subject:* [Apn] The official instructions on the next step of APN > > > > Dear all, > > > > You may have seen the BoF announcement > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bofs/. > > > > The instructions on the next step of APN are officially confirmed, > > 1. Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and INTAREA meetings a= t > IETF110. > > 2. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after > IETF110 to go into more depth on this topic. > > > > Any suggestions on how to have fruitful discussions and progress the work > in IETF are very welcomed. Thank you! > > > > =E2=80=9CThe Application-Aware Networking (APN) BOF proposal was focused = on > developing a framework and set of mechanisms to derive, convey, and use a= n > identifier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-= , > and service-level requirements at the network layer. This proposal was ma= de > for several previous IETF meetings and will benefit from further focused > discussion at IETF 110 during the Routing Area Working Group (RTGWG > ) and Internet Area Working > Group (INTAREA ) > meetings. A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IE= TF > 110 will go into more depth on this topic. Discussion continues on the Ap= plication-aware > Networking mailing list. =E2= =80=9D > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > > -- > Apn mailing list > Apn@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn > > -- > > [image: =E5=9B=BE=E5=83=8F=E5=B7=B2=E8=A2=AB=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= =E5=88=A0=E9=99=A4=E3=80=82] > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike > > *Silver Spring, MD > > > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --000000000000569dd505baf34674 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Shuping=C2=A0
Welcome and much obliged to be part of the APN te= am!!

My throughs are tha= t we would cater each=C2=A0
presentation based on th= e WG audience so let=E2=80=99s say for 6MAN we delve deep into APN use of e= xtension headers.

Fo= r Spring it would be about SR-TE steering path instantiation and related ca= veats and maybe how to manage or extent trust for inter provider SR-TE for = network slice.

For TEAS = we would discuss details of 5G and network slicing framework using APN ID a= nd steering.

Just a few = examples


Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 5:15 AM= Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <p= engshuping@huawei.com> wrote:

Dear Gyan,

=C2=A0=

Truly appreciate your suppo= rt on APN! It has been great to have you on board. Thank you very much!

=C2=A0=

We would need to discuss mo= re on how to have productive discussions in these groups and collect feedba= ck so to keep this work progressing.

=C2=A0=

What would be desired to be= heard in these presentations and discussed in the meetings? Suggestions ar= e very welcomed.

=C2=A0=

Best regards,

Shuping

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From: Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 4,= 2021 12:16 PM
To: liupengyjy@outlook.com
Cc: Pengshuping (Peng Shupi= ng) <pengshuping@huawei.com>; apn@ietf.org; int-area@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Apn] The offi= cial instructions on the next step of APN

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi Shuping=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0

I agree that APN has critical a= pplicability for operators for 5G, DETNET and even any public or private mu= lticast MVPN streaming video content so does have quite extensive applicabi= lity for operators.

There also maybe private SR =C2= =A0use cases for special SLA application flows value added service.<= u>

=C2=A0

As for productive discussions t= o move the ball forward with APN BOF, I do agree with having discussions wh= ere network operators can share their experiences and how APN can benefit s= o in that light as you stated IntArea and RTGWG are a good start. =C2=A0

GROW maybe useful for in the gl= obal internet routing context and how APN can play a role.

=C2=A0

I think DETNET would be good fo= r applicability statement, =C2=A0and Spring, 6MAN and TEAS maybe good from = a APN architecture and design framework as APN leverages IPv6 data plane EH= headers and utilizes traffic steering SRv6 forwarding plane and also gets into 5G network slicing so then TEAS comes = into play and NS network slicing architecture.

=C2=A0

I would be happy to present APN= architecture and applicability at IETF 110.

=C2=A0

Kind Regards=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Gyan=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:34 PM= liupengyjy@outlook.com <liupengyjy@outlook.com> wrote:<= /p>

It's good news that APN can= be fully discussed in rtg and intarea' meetings.<= /p>

=C2=A0

There have been many drafts of = APN technology and scenarios. As an operator, we think APN is valuable and = worthy of discussion and progress.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Peng Liu(CMCC)

=C2=A0

---Orig= inal---

From: "Pe= ngshuping (Peng Shuping)"<pengshuping@huawei.com>

Date: Thu, Feb= 4, 2021 09:39 AM

To:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9pt;color:rgb(33,33,33)"> "<= span style=3D"font-size:9pt">apn@ietf.org"<apn@ietf.org>;

Cc:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9pt;color:rgb(33,33,33)"> "int-area@ietf.org"<int-area@ietf.org>;"= rtgwg@ietf.org"<rtgwg@ietf.org>;

Subject:= [Apn]= The official instructions on the next step of APN

=C2=A0

Dear all,

=C2=A0

You may have seen the BoF annou= ncement https= ://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf110-bofs/.

=C2=A0

The instructions on the next st= ep of APN are officially confirmed,

1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Presentations and discussions in the RTGWG and INTAREA meetings a= t IETF110.

2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF= 110 to go into more depth on this topic.

=C2=A0

Any suggestions on how to have = fruitful discussions and progress the work in IETF are very welcomed. Thank= you!

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CThe Application-Aware = Networking (APN) BOF proposal was focused on developing a framework and set= of mechanisms to derive, convey, and use an identifier to allow for the signaling of fine-grained user-, application-, and service-level r= equirements at the network layer. This proposal was made for several previo= us IETF meetings and will benefit from further focused discussion at IETF 1= 10 during the Routing Area Working Group (RTGWG) and Internet Area Working Group (INTAREA) meetings= . A virtual interim meeting of the RTGWG to be scheduled after IETF 110 will go into more depth on this topic. Disc= ussion continues on the=C2=A0Application-aware Networking=C2=A0mailing lis= t.=C2=A0=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Shuping

=C2=A0

--
Apn mailing list
Apn@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn

--

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--000000000000569dd505baf34674-- --000000000000569dd605baf34675 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image002.jpg" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image002.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <1778a0643c0b11963101> X-Attachment-Id: 1778a0643c0b11963101 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAeAB4AAD/2wBDAAoHBwkHBgoJCAkLCwoMDxkQDw4ODx4WFxIZJCAmJSMg IyIoLTkwKCo2KyIjMkQyNjs9QEBAJjBGS0U+Sjk/QD3/wAALCAAXAGUBAREA/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEB AQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1Fh ByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZ WmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXG x8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oACAEBAAA/APZqKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK//2Q== --000000000000569dd605baf34675-- From nobody Fri Feb 12 16:35:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C923A11BF; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:33:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: evyncke@cisco.com, int-area@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <161317640137.31337.6911356902269096248@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:33:21 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] intarea - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 110 X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:33:30 -0000 Dear Wassim Haddad, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. intarea Session 1 (1:00 requested) Friday, 12 March 2021, Session II 1530-1630 Room Name: Room 4 size: 504 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/sessions/intarea.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Internet Area Working Group Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Wassim Haddad Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: lpwan 6tisch 6lo dhc t2trg dmm Technology Overlap: dnsop 6man v6ops saag tsvwg People who must be present: Eric Vyncke Juan Carlos Zuniga Wassim Haddad Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Feb 15 07:39:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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2021 15:04:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.52) by fraeml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:09:58 +0100 Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by fraeml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:09:58 +0100 Received: from DGGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.147]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:09:52 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "apn@ietf.org" CC: "rtgwg@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: APN Question List - TOP 10 Thread-Index: AdcFo25gjkSM9PS6S7SsK/IQmvPg1Q== Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:09:53 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE198F0854@dggeml512-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE198F0854dggeml512mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] APN Question List - TOP 10 X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:10:10 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE198F0854dggeml512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Please find below the APN Question List and our discussions archived before= . There have been some time. We have narrowed down the scope of the APN work = and clarified things further. Your views and comments are very welcomed. Introduction: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/8TBab9lcqUFkiRRRD9jZ1MSFymI/ Q #1 and #2 #1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work? #2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or Internet? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/U-RG7T5oQect4x15BZn__D16F2I/ Q #3 and #4 #3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better? #4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts in IETF's histo= ry? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/CFQoUwSz3gsgFfwxJA4v08JX9-U/ Q #5 #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/5O1du9eqmwG9lO7mcyVzHy0YnEc/ Q #6 and #7 #6. Is the fine-granularity operations needed/desired in the network? #7. Why not just use DSCP? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/sfqcXP3tVUiul0G9CQpI_biRy5g/ Q #8 #8. Does APN violate network neutrality? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/VJsk4Kn3fkmUxHxzP7SWZR-Q-Qg/ Q #9 and #10 #9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware information is c= arried in the APN packets? #10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware information is c= arried in the APN packets? https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/OYiFhu4EhjiXz6TNecEL6NJQ478/ Best regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE198F0854dggeml512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE198F0854dggeml512mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Feb 18 01:45:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F9C3A0E9F for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:45:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HXVfBmLc7ViH for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E6203A0EA1 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:45:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id 81so1484700qkf.4 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:45:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GLRWMe0+WvBF2dqKS2G3KrNkE4FC3QhjeVcSYPDE3rg=; b=UPm+W/apUKIWcOM5KDPbS2CrQ9JWW0jIs9VhSlFZEeH7jpeIjkSfr1grHH9m7zEa/v cLPHQUNxlbozO+6tP9SvGujm933QeJo/RCYmz3y+bNmQVbSbFxmWNFa2RcyXetn9Gc4J G9+AlADCKu/H+KUG6aT4UIVrzXxV/LB0zjihQez6SS/HCGE77C4y79TajCOCxXiYgU84 c38KkueQ5ski926QCosvLTNlrTre+J/H1yWuc0gYy1LYvbpQ9ZCVuZnumwfdTJWJRVtH OAwaz0qCjvAUs9/Fn+z3V8kX/xUymLkS5dbeJTskK2L2mwtfyeacFW/cClaYwUdZjGad CU8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GLRWMe0+WvBF2dqKS2G3KrNkE4FC3QhjeVcSYPDE3rg=; b=mqr92v1tAHB9d9lImxUXALnISpFfZt9AaTaCEHO1r1rahjuhajViWe8YRSMHCaTR+8 H83W3cMLPSH5GmBhkRN5pwuguRRTIqCaJrPp/IEokj6MEEbuz5oFdJ3JUL9+gZLW5A2z tIBvjSVcY3/6Vt3DuFBum0niZ7cHA3TWAG///+uqFQ7lWbXr7FpeBMf8nfoY0J0gCDby RmMxJLx9Su22YjIjIiZTjLTiAaBlUY72DUxtYkaHdRoxfMfgDTAtcXdg8CTCmJVt2riJ STaK/5QExjYslpBKLMfcby1iXNciV+onYl2EDIt0oNePFKAQcjY1ZxY44aJ0PbMifUto /k4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533l7MaExvVSxZoHr3FxriPVFkhC+vIdo0+2FFNr4lFMt5oQJq70 RX966cEMUqHbu+GC0+KbyeG+AcjEY71f4y6xf0MC7iLJb4w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwUNC0XtEFGeDUOhlJirGHO4R2uJVwlxCSwxsJHxJwx0PfRv32BQbldDx/hjo3pgBSFChwW1U83dtwW/EF8UNs= X-Received: by 2002:a37:804:: with SMTP id 4mr3364489qki.207.1613641548548; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:45:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160549933225.16448.15210422391776585953@ietfa.amsl.com> <7CDDE2AD-62C9-4E0A-9D7E-4698CD8009E1@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <7CDDE2AD-62C9-4E0A-9D7E-4698CD8009E1@apple.com> From: "Luis M. Contreras" Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 10:45:37 +0100 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004bcce605bb993399" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Per-Application Networking Considerations X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 09:45:52 -0000 --0000000000004bcce605bb993399 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I have gone through the document and I would like to share some comments on it. .- Introduction / regarding the examples provided: These cases could not have the same regulatory treatment. This is an important consideration because there could be limitations in some cases/situations. .- Specifically regarding the zero rating example: In my view this is more administrative than technical, in the sense that the networking behavior does not change. It is only a matter of OSS/BSS to account that traffic as chargeable or not. .- Introduction / =E2=80=9CThus, if an application is to receive different treatment, the host or the application itself should be involved in requesting specific network treatment=E2=80=9D: This has different implicat= ions. For instance, if the application itself takes the decision without knowledge/approval of the user, it could impact / interfere in other applications in the same device / access line. How this potential problem can be controlled? .- Section 2 / in the 1st paragraph you provide the idea of applications requesting and obtaining particular treatment: (1) how do you foresee the application requesting differentiation?; and (2) how such differentiation is verified?. Probably good to dig into for the different mechanisms listed, but also for whatever new that could be defined from this effort. Additionally, the applications could have other mechanisms in place such as congestion control. Maybe necessary to differentiate effects from some mechanisms and the ohers (and/or to see how to gracefully coordinate them). .- Section 3 / =E2=80=9CIn a situation where the network operator has influ= ence on the implementation of the user host=E2=80=9D: To be fair, probably the sa= me comment should be made with respect to the operating systems on the devices (for instance, with respect to congestion control mechanisms implemented). .- Section 3 / =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 by ensuring that the mechanism used to co= mmunicate requests to the network only specifies traffic classes and not individual applications.=E2=80=9D: This is important. The actual model, based on best = effort and/or overprovisioning does not scale. Having view of traffic classes is great, but not all the applications can be high-priority. Somehow there should be some capacity (quota?) allocated per traffic class. But again it could be the case that such capacity is exhausted. What happens then? I mean, there are two points to discuss: (1) interchange information for assisting on stable situations, and (2) how to handle congestion because e.g. network failures, sudden demands, or even over-prioritization from the applications. .- Section 4 / reference to =E2=80=9Cappropriate policies=E2=80=9D in the 1= st paragraph: The policies are implemented based on identifiers, e.g. origin-destination, labels, etc. Now new kind of policies could be required based on the class of service (so the =E2=80=9Cidentifier=E2=80=9D would be now the class of s= ervice, not the application itself, due to privacy and other concerns described later). .- Section 4 / =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 instead of the application originating th= e traffic=E2=80=9D & =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 specify general categories =E2=80=9D: The same should be required in the= host or device. .- Section 5 / regarding categories of traffic that =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 need= to be sufficiently broad =E2=80=A6 =E2=80=9D: The broader, the less informative w= ould be. The risk is to give room to (mis)interpretations. A proper balance of prescription and description is needed to ensure the expected behavior in the network. .- Section 6 / =E2=80=9Cif the host's user is informed that particular appl= ications are seeking or designated for particular treatment and consents to it.=E2= =80=9D: This can only be done by the application. The operating system of the device does not necessarily knows what is the treatment required by a given application. Maybe would be necessary to distinguish what should/must/can be done by the application, the host/device, and the network .- Section 7 / =E2=80=9CAny API should not involve revealing an application= or user identity to the network via metadata without network authentication.=E2=80= =9D: This could be problematic for charging purposes in e.g. wholesale scenarios. .- Section 7 / =E2=80=9C"this is my application identifier "=E2=80=9D: howe= ver in the sentence before you refer to =E2=80=9Cmy app=E2=80=9D anyway. Thanks Luis El mar, 17 nov 2020 a las 5:22, Tommy Pauly () escribi=C3=B3: > Hello INTAREA, > > We published a draft this week that we=E2=80=99d like to briefly introduc= e for > discussion within the intarea WG, draft-per-app-networking-considerations= . > This is an informational document that discusses the implications of a > trend we=E2=80=99ve noticed towards putting more application identifiers = or > per-application logic in the network layers. Many different proposals tou= ch > on the idea of differentiating traffic based on application, but we belie= ve > it would be useful to have a general statement about the privacy trade-of= fs > and design considerations in this space. Moreover, we think that a broad > technical group like intarea may be the right place to discuss and review > this work. > > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-0= 0.html > > Your reviews and thoughts are appreciated! > > Best, > Tommy & Lorenzo > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > *Subject: **New Version Notification for > draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.txt* > *Date: *November 15, 2020 at 8:02:12 PM PST > *To: *Lorenzo Colitti , Tommy Pauly > > > A new version of I-D, draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-per-app-networking-considerations > Revision: 00 > Title: Per-Application Networking Considerations > Document date: 2020-11-15 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-0= 0.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-per-app-networking-considerations/ > Html: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-0= 0.html > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00 > > > Abstract: > This document describes considerations for and implications of using > application identifiers as a method of differentiating traffic on > networks. Specifically, it discusses privacy considerations, > possible mitigations, and considerations for user experience and API > design. > > Discussion Venues > > This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC. > > Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at > https://github.com/tfpauly/per-app-networking-considerations. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > --=20 ___________________________________________ Luis M. Contreras contreras.ietf@gmail.com luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com Global CTIO unit / Telefonica --0000000000004bcce605bb993399 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

I have gone through the documen= t and I would like to share some comments on=C2=A0it.

<= div>.- Introduction / regarding the examples provided: These cases could no= t have the same regulatory treatment. This is an important consideration be= cause there could be limitations in some cases/situations.

.-= Specifically regarding the zero rating example: In my view this is more ad= ministrative than technical, in the sense that the networking behavior does= not change. It is only a matter of OSS/BSS to account that traffic as char= geable or not.

.- Introduction / =E2=80=9CThus, if an applica= tion is to receive different treatment, the host or the application itself = should be involved in requesting specific network treatment=E2=80=9D: This = has different implications. For instance, if the application itself takes t= he decision without knowledge/approval of the user, it could impact / inter= fere in other applications in the same device / access line. How this poten= tial problem can be controlled?

.- Section 2 / in the 1st par= agraph you provide the idea of applications requesting and obtaining partic= ular treatment: (1) how do you foresee the application requesting different= iation?; and (2) how such differentiation is verified?. Probably good to di= g into for the different mechanisms listed, but also for whatever new that = could be defined from this effort. Additionally, the applications could hav= e other mechanisms in place such as congestion control. Maybe necessary to = differentiate effects from some mechanisms and the ohers (and/or to see how= to gracefully coordinate them).

.- Section 3 / =E2=80=9CIn a= situation where the network operator has influence on the =C2=A0 implement= ation of the user host=E2=80=9D: To be fair, probably the same comment shou= ld be made with respect to the operating systems on the devices (for instan= ce, with respect to congestion control mechanisms implemented).
<= br>.- Section 3 / =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 by ensuring that the mechanism used to= communicate requests to the network only specifies traffic classes and not= individual applications.=E2=80=9D: This is important. The actual model, ba= sed on best effort and/or overprovisioning does not scale. Having view of t= raffic classes is great, but not all the applications can be high-priority.= Somehow there should be some capacity (quota?) allocated per traffic class= . But again it could be the case that such capacity is exhausted. What happ= ens then? I mean, there are two points to discuss: (1) interchange informat= ion for assisting on stable situations, and (2) how to handle congestion be= cause e.g. network failures, sudden demands, or even over-prioritization fr= om the applications.

.- Section 4 / reference to =E2=80=9Capp= ropriate policies=E2=80=9D in the 1st paragraph: The policies are implement= ed based on identifiers, e.g. origin-destination, labels, etc. Now new kind= of policies could be required based on the class of service (so the =E2=80= =9Cidentifier=E2=80=9D would be now the class of service, not the applicati= on itself, due to privacy and other concerns described later).
.- Section 4 / =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 instead of the application originating = the traffic=E2=80=9D & =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 specify general =C2=A0 =C2=A0= categories =E2=80=9D: The same should be required in the host or device.

.- Section 5 / regarding categories of traffic that =E2=80=9C= =E2=80=A6 need to be sufficiently broad =E2=80=A6 =E2=80=9D: The broader, t= he less informative would be. The risk is to give room to (mis)interpretati= ons. A proper balance of prescription and description is needed to ensure t= he expected behavior in the network.

.- Section 6 / =E2=80=9C= if the host's user is informed that particular applications are seeking= or designated for particular treatment and consents to it.=E2=80=9D: This = can only be done by the application. The operating system of the device doe= s not necessarily knows what is the treatment required by a given applicati= on.
Maybe would be necessary to distinguish what should/must/can be done= by the application, the host/device, and the network

.- = Section 7 / =E2=80=9CAny API should not involve revealing an application or= user identity to the network via metadata without network authentication.= =E2=80=9D: This could be problematic for charging purposes in e.g. wholesal= e scenarios.

.- Section 7 / =E2=80=9C"this is my app= lication identifier "=E2=80=9D: however in the sentence before you ref= er to =E2=80=9Cmy app=E2=80=9D anyway.

Thanks<= /div>

Luis

El mar, 17 nov 2020 a las 5:22, Tommy Pa= uly (<tpauly=3D40apple.com= @dmarc.ietf.org>) escribi=C3=B3:
Hello INT= AREA,

We published a draft this week that we=E2=80=99d l= ike to briefly introduce for discussion within the intarea WG,=C2=A0draft-p= er-app-networking-considerations. This is an informational document that di= scusses the implications of a trend we=E2=80=99ve noticed towards putting m= ore application identifiers or per-application logic in the network layers.= Many different proposals touch on the idea of differentiating traffic base= d on application, but we believe it would be useful to have a general state= ment about the privacy trade-offs and design considerations in this space. = Moreover, we think that a broad technical group like intarea may be the rig= ht place to discuss and review this work.


Your reviews = and thoughts are appreciated!

Best,
Tomm= y & Lorenzo

Begin forwarded = message:

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
<= /div>
Sub= ject: New Version Notification for draft= -per-app-networking-considerations-00.txt
Date: November 15, 2020 at 8:02:12 PM PST
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
=


A new version of I-D, draft-per-app-networki= ng-considerations-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly = and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-per-= app-networking-considerations
Revision: 00
Title: Per-Application Networking Considera= tions
Document date: 2020-11= -15
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 7=
URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per= -app-networking-considerations-00.txt
Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/draft-per-app-networking-considerations/
Html: =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-cons= iderations-00.html
Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-per-app-networking= -considerations-00


Abstract:
=C2=A0=C2=A0This document d= escribes considerations for and implications of using
=C2=A0=C2=A0appli= cation identifiers as a method of differentiating traffic on
=C2=A0=C2= =A0networks.=C2=A0 Specifically, it discusses privacy considerations,
= =C2=A0=C2=A0possible mitigations, and considerations for user experience an= d API
=C2=A0=C2=A0design.

Discussion Venues

=C2=A0=C2=A0= This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.

=C2=A0=C2= =A0Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at
=C2=A0=C2= =A0https://github.com/tfpauly/per-app-networking-considerat= ions.




Please note that it may take a couple of minut= es from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are a= vailable at tools.ietf.= org.

The IETF Secretariat



_______________________________________________
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area


--
__________________________= _________________
Luis M. Contreras
<= div>Global CTIO unit / Telefonica

Dear all,

 

Please find below the APN Quest= ion List and our discussions archived before.

There have been some time. We h= ave narrowed down the scope of the APN work and clarified things further.

 

Your views and comments are ver= y welcomed.

 

Introduction:=

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/8TBab9lcqUFkiRRRD9jZ1MSFymI/

 

Q #1 and #2

#1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work?

#2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or Inter= net?

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/U-RG7T5oQect4x15BZn__D16F2I/

 

Q #3 and #4

#3. Which area in IETF would the APN=
 work fit better?
#4. What is the relationship between=
 APN and other attempts in IETF’s history?

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/CFQoUwSz3gsgFfwxJA4v08JX9-U/

 

Q #5

#5. What are the valuable use cases/=
usage scenarios of APN?

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/5O1du9eqmwG9lO7mcyVzHy0YnEc/

 

Q #6 and #7

#6. Is the fine-granularity operatio=
ns needed/desired in the network?
#7. Why not just use DSCP?

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/sfqcXP3tVUiul0G9CQpI_biRy5g/

 

Q #8

#8. Does APN violate network neutral=
ity?

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/VJsk4Kn3fkmUxHxzP7SWZR-Q-Qg/

 

Q #9 and #10<= /p>

#9. Will APN raise security issues s=
ince application-aware information is carried in the APN packets?
#10. Will APN raise privacy issues s=
ince application-aware information is carried in the APN packets?

https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/apn/OYiFhu4EhjiXz6TNecEL6NJQ478/

 

Best regards,

Shuping

--0000000000004bcce605bb993399-- From nobody Thu Feb 18 12:26:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2A13A1809 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:26:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmJlTJ5hLPd7 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA5353A180F for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 12:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:d092:11d0:9223:9b8f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:d092:11d0:9223:9b8f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE33828045B; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 20:25:59 +0000 (UTC) References: <36ba7456-210c-0626-5ec6-147538e49e5d@si6networks.com> To: Internet Area From: Fernando Gont X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <36ba7456-210c-0626-5ec6-147538e49e5d@si6networks.com> Message-ID: <867bfede-b737-fdf9-0280-5eb959bb4674@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:25:18 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36ba7456-210c-0626-5ec6-147538e49e5d@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Fwd: IPv6 addressing: Gaps? (draft-gont-v6ops-ipv6-addressing-considerations) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 20:26:07 -0000 Folks, FYI. This is being discussed in the v6ops list. BUt given the breatdth of the topic, I thought this might be of interest to this group, too. Thanks! Regards, Fernando -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: IPv6 addressing: Gaps? (draft-gont-v6ops-ipv6-addressing-considerations) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:50:48 -0300 From: Fernando Gont To: IPv6 Operations Folks, In the aforementioned document (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-ipv6-addressing-considerations), we have tried to do at least three things: 1) Look at what we have and try to discuss things from an architectural perspective 2) Analyze the implications of #1 (whether operations, security, privacy, etc.) 3) Find missing gaps that currently prevent us from fully leveraging IPv6 addressing. Part of what we've found as doing #3 above is that: * There are shortcomings associated with the current APIs that prevent better usage of IPv6 addresses * Multi-router/multi-prefix routing seems to be broken. RFC8028 would be a fundamental starting point in the right direction... but I believe there's more to do in this area. In that light, we'd like to hear further comments on our document. And, in particular, we're interested to hear if : * there are any operational implications of IPv6 addressing that we have missed, or, * there's anything related to IPv6 addressing that you consider to be currently broken or problematic, that is missing in our I-D. Thoughts on the current contents of the I-D are, of course, also very welcome! Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 18 13:51:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256153A18E2 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:51:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2MVQzsZPABYv for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A01133A18E5 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:51:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CB654802F; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:51:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 0D91C440163; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:51:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 22:51:35 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20210218215135.GA21407@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <160549933225.16448.15210422391776585953@ietfa.amsl.com> <7CDDE2AD-62C9-4E0A-9D7E-4698CD8009E1@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7CDDE2AD-62C9-4E0A-9D7E-4698CD8009E1@apple.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Per-Application Networking Considerations X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 21:51:44 -0000 Hi Tommy, Lorenzo Thanks for this work. Its always good trying to make _any_ progress on this subject matter. This is a huge can of really interesting worms many of us have been thinking about for a long time in various aspects, so i have to constrain myself. Not sure i succeed. The one most high-level concern is that of scope and actually considering the scope where these technologies are not something to fear, but where they actually are crucial to the use case. For example, the end-to-end security model to counter pervasive monitoring is exactly what i personally likely want for my internet browsing activity, but when i would have to build the network & compute infrastructure for a big complex system, like a manufacturing or power plant, it is maybe almost the opposite of what i need, but because of scope misinterpretation and creep of IETF principles such as those PM goals, i might not be able to get the software solutions anymore to build the ideal solution because all endpoints SDKs are only providing let's say TLS 1.3. For example: In an embedded network, most of the hosts are unrustworthy stupid machines sensors/actors with absolutely no privacy rights that regularily misbehave and endanger the reliabilty of the overall system, they also have absolutely no revenue model to permit the quite expensive crypto agility operational model, but need to be stockable for 30 years. On the other hand, almost every forwarder in the network serves an orchestration, control and/or surveillance function, and i would like all my data flowing through the network to be authenticated but not encrypted so i can most easily perform all these verification, orchestration and control functions. Oh, and i have shitloads of physical security. Of course, this is a simplistic exaggeration, but i think it would be prudent to the ongoing wider reach of IETF solutions to acknowledge that we have to support a continuum betwen maybe those two extremes: The network as the nervuous system of what ultimately is a big distributed application on one extreme over to the "Internet browsing" as maybe the other extreme. Of course expecting a one-dimensional problem space is also simplistic, but at last it is one dimension more than assuming that all our problems are around the zero-dimensional problem space of Internet browsing (OTT service consumption). To that extend, one suggestion for 110 is to ask bringing up the subject at iotops WG too in the hope to find feedback from more IETF participants working outside the "Internet Browsing" use case. One other point for now: Nobody loves DPI, but when i presented draft-eckert-intarea-flow-metadata-framework into the IEF during probably the height of the PM work (2014) to overcome DPI and to easier allow for end-to-end encryption without removing the ability to support the application objectives best, the reaction was pretty single minded rejecting anything that didnt serve the PM goal, with feedback like this: "An application should never be given an opportunity to even willfully disseminate any information to a network, because we can not trust application code to do anything" (of course the sentence didn't go on saying "beside passing all possible user information into a data-center without any user consent", but hey, it was 2014). In fact, that whole draft design was based on the recognition that applications indeed are often too stupid to understand what they need from the network to give them the best experience, and that is an important problem to solve, but it has never been a problem that Internet cloud application providers where interested in, because all their past network facing design was based on attracting the most users even in the face of the worst network (design against worst 20%) instead of spending any development cycles on supporting better experiences for the top 20% that would be able to get better differentiated network services. Especially given that the network service providers offering those better network services are commercial competitors of said internet cloud application providers. And i am not putting blame anywhere, i just think we need to openly talk about the commercial interests that we do want or not want to represent in the work. Its the elephant in the room: As long as we have such a huge disconnect in economic interest between key stakeholder in the IETF, we are just going to see technical solutions based on who has more influence to push their side of a divisive agenda. Btw (and i hope i remember this correctly): Even back in the days of early windows NT (around or before XP), the API was not to let poor applications figure out what they should request from the network (application: "WTF is a DSCP, and why do i need to care ?"), but instead it was a policy layer provisioned by the windows domain operator that did that. And accordingly mapped application traffic flows to appropriate DSCP and/or RSVP signalings. That type of layered approach would allow to create different policies and resulting different degrees of exposure of information for the same application if its either deployed in that nuclear power plant vs. a home for internet browsing. Add appropriate authentication and better than RSVP/DSCP signaling, add encryption for the Internet use-case, jada jada - and we would get towards good technical solutions... (IMHO). Cheers Toerless On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 08:22:22PM -0800, Tommy Pauly wrote: > Hello INTAREA, > > We published a draft this week that we???d like to briefly introduce for discussion within the intarea WG, draft-per-app-networking-considerations. This is an informational document that discusses the implications of a trend we???ve noticed towards putting more application identifiers or per-application logic in the network layers. Many different proposals touch on the idea of differentiating traffic based on application, but we believe it would be useful to have a general statement about the privacy trade-offs and design considerations in this space. Moreover, we think that a broad technical group like intarea may be the right place to discuss and review this work. > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.html > > Your reviews and thoughts are appreciated! > > Best, > Tommy & Lorenzo > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.txt > > Date: November 15, 2020 at 8:02:12 PM PST > > To: Lorenzo Colitti , Tommy Pauly > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-per-app-networking-considerations > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Per-Application Networking Considerations > > Document date: 2020-11-15 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 7 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-per-app-networking-considerations/ > > Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00.html > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-per-app-networking-considerations-00 > > > > > > Abstract: > > This document describes considerations for and implications of using > > application identifiers as a method of differentiating traffic on > > networks. Specifically, it discusses privacy considerations, > > possible mitigations, and considerations for user experience and API > > design. > > > > Discussion Venues > > > > This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC. > > > > Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at > > https://github.com/tfpauly/per-app-networking-considerations. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Thu Feb 18 15:49:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF433A1A0A; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:49:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQNken16VU1k; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38D53A19FC; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id k22so9448683ljg.3; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:49:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5lg+TcFlAodmV5TtCQy/Cgow5/aWxUNKhPSG2H0Xn20=; b=pVlg44yjtYTf0Xg2S/0SZLMmJztOZKIZXCmcJR1sgyYDpCoK4DXysSLw3N+vMtGoc7 1g9kfqwcde1hIQpZ8dsmtc1lakakb4UVFsypGLjf3UuvpvXLDpMBNbwCI8aB42NOTmaZ hTpMDnO4x9+qHp9xNAKUx78QcYS9d4hLNJ+HnYaguxqQHr47SnFIMvhQKSP4x+J0X23o iXsqTXhcTjKcKvFBPZqKqtRfSLzbGfUFLf42402XfIgMNXBWOnPqL5Vd63M9i27ujaSH YmcPjfxgT67PV6/jmr3vbUJ+ciNHzdhQot8sj51IMwtbcOwL9u+L1EHkpTaxHg4pv2rN RhnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5lg+TcFlAodmV5TtCQy/Cgow5/aWxUNKhPSG2H0Xn20=; b=VCk9rwwx4TN83HVbIglOTB2oCaXyb+0pt6MLcQGZOufaOdO6PCqpnHGYtkZ5K1yUO/ bAryw8RcDnjaYbu9SvQi3x7jMnZYoxZL6esRRAHPK4wd8FC1ee3bkmCDWNJPWuwxquo1 lvRqX4tpvfSer/R3iOmZp7btOfV10qt/69jiqAxtf9YPyd2bi+bQMnLHdxGtPrAkWzan JLSHdOpDsGkOy2Douvsil7m8iX6Is8TJBSTTUvmQIRmoqiXT9AXaHzWY1S1fMW0Z3O5E Aqu6wtJE5dKjwZOBnYd+5PfSsfiDQiRKVeslXwsL4BHHgZaMldIm8b0P4VUyWzeO0wXG NtUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532DxIRKvK9o0R55Z2TzhyWzWppI7p9+M7Wwpco8kaTRBe+Yw7vm vt4YpGrbUFJv4bg2De22s5MBSG7G2L2M3iEcIw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZOpE362ItRPPAl9jZ8G8QY3lpeQgPfkIHNmmy0jjV9SG7zsZvA3lvPvwbnK3q3VmLwrFmJwsUJIHFfnaf67A= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:42d3:: with SMTP id n19mr3888474lfl.447.1613692158984; Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:49:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rakesh Gandhi Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 18:49:07 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , mpls , "int-area@ietf.org" , Kireeti Kompella , Ronald Bonica , "" , "pals@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9c6ae05bba4fbfe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 23:49:23 -0000 --000000000000e9c6ae05bba4fbfe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stewart, Hi Xiao, Loa, FYI: I believe the latest revision (06) addresses this comment. Welcome your feedback on that. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr-06 Thanks for your review. Regards, Rakesh On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Rakesh Gandhi wrote: > Hi Stewart, > Thanks for your comments. If we have a mechanism like following, does tha= t > address the issue? > > 1. IOAM header is part of the MPLS encapsulation, any other control > word is added after the IOAM header in the data packet. > 2. The transit nodes can process the IOAM data field(s) after the EOS > in data packets as it is proposed. > 3. The decapsulating node removes the MPLS encapsulation including the > IOAM header and then processes the other control word following it. > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | IOAM Indicator Label | TC |1| TTL | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+ > > |0 0 0 1|Version| Reserved | IOAM G-ACh | | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | > > | Reserved | Block Number | IOAM-OPT-Type |IOAM HDR Length| | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ I > > | | O > > | | A > > ~ IOAM Option and Data Space ~ M > > | | | > > | | | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+ > > |0 0 0 0| Rsved | This Header | Header Length | Next Header | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > ~ Variable field per =E2=80=9CThis header=E2=80=9D = ~ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | | > > | | > > ~ Payload Packet ~ > > | | > > | | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Thanks, > Rakesh > > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:00 AM Stewart Bryant > wrote: > >> Thank you Jeffery >> >> Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after Bo= S >> =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet is al= ready using. >> >> We plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next IETF, >> but I think we also need to include the iOAM people. >> >> This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates for BoS >> metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure the fut= ure >> health the MPLS protocol. >> >> - Stewart >> >> >> > On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I just posted >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-f= unctions/ >> . >> > >> > The initial version was posted to the tsvwg ( >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-tsvwg-generic-transport-functio= ns-00). >> After discussions/feedback we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new >> version also contains quite some changes based on the comments and feedb= ack >> that we received (special thanks to Stewart). >> > >> > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. >> > >> > Thanks. >> > Jeffrey >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mpls mailing list >> mpls@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls >> > --000000000000e9c6ae05bba4fbfe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stewart,
Hi Xiao, Loa,
FY= I:
I believe the latest revision (06) addresses this comment. Wel= come your feedback on that.

Thanks f= or your review.
Regards,
Rakesh
<= br>
On Tue,= Jan 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi = Stewart,
Thanks for your comments. If we = have a mechanism like following, does that address the issue?
  • IOAM header is part of the MPLS encapsulati= on, any other= control word is added after the IOAM header in the data packet.
  • The transit nodes can process the IOAM data field(s) after the EOS in data pack= ets as it is proposed.
  • The decapsulating node removes the MPLS encapsulation including the IOAM header and then processes the other control word followi= ng it.
  • =C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 | IOAM Indicator L= abel=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | TC=C2=A0 |1|<= span>=C2=A0 TTL=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<= ;-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 1|Version| = Reserved=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | IOAM G-ACh=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 |

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    Thanks,
    Rakesh



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priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102190125 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:42:33 -0000 SGkgU3Rld2FydCwNCg0KSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlIHRvIHJlYWQgbW9yZSBhYm91dCBEZXROZXQsIGJ1 dCBJIGFtIG5vdCBzdXJlIGlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgcmVhbCBjb250ZW50aW9uIHdpdGggUEFMUy4N Cg0KTXkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyBvZiAwMDAwIG5pYmJsZSBpbiBQVyBjb250cm9sIHdvcmxkIGlz IHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgb25seSB0byBwcmV2ZW50IGEgdHJhbnNpdCBub2RlIGZyb20gbWlzdGFraW5n IHRoZSBwYXlsb2FkIGFzIElQLiBJcyBpdCBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBpbmRpY2F0ZSB0aGF0IGFueSBw YXlsb2FkIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHdpdGggMDAwMCBpcyBQVyBwYXlsb2FkPyBJIGhvcGUgbm90Lg0KDQpV 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08:52:16 -0800 Subject: Re: [Int-area] [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 16:15:33 -0000 --_000_MN2PR05MB598178C9CAA547D000376178D4849MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUmFrZXNoLCBZYW5nZmFuLA0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgYSBHREZIIGNhbiBmb2xsb3cgdGhl IElPQU0gaGVhZGVyIGFuZCB0aGUgdHdvIGRvIG5vdCBjb250ZW5kLg0KDQpJdCBjYW1lIHRvIG1l IHRob3VnaCwgdGhlIElPQU0gaGVhZGVyIGNvdWxkIGJlY29tZSBhIEdERkgg8J+YiiBJdCBjYW4g dGhlbiBiZSB1c2VkIGZvciBhbGwgdHJhbnNwb3J0YXRpb25zIChNUExTLCBCSUVSLCBvciBldmVu IGV0aGVybmV0KS4NCg0KSSBzZWUgdGhhdCBpbiB5b3VyIC0wNiB2ZXJzaW9uIHlvdSB0cmVhdCBJ T0FNIGFzICBhIEctQUNIIGNoYW5uZWwuIFRoYXQgZG9lcyBub3Qgc2VlbSB0byBnbyB3ZWxsIHdp 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n22mr19002310wmk.70.1613988899325; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 02:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.8.102] ([148.252.129.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d20sm30186080wrc.12.2021.02.22.02.14.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 02:14:58 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D7BFCA92-E2F2-4F40-8FD7-A70D53A99EA6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:14:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stewart Bryant , "int-area@ietf.org" , mpls , "pals@ietf.org" , Kireeti Kompella , Ronald Bonica , "" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:15:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D7BFCA92-E2F2-4F40-8FD7-A70D53A99EA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The DetNet CW is described in RFC8964 and is=20 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0| Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Figure 5: DetNet Control Word In all defined control words The 0000 is simply ECMP defeat and has no other purpose. 0001 means ACH=20 An ACH is currently defined not to carry service/user data - it is a = control/OAM channel. You cannot assume anything about a payload starting 0000. In MPLS the bottom label (alone) defines how you process the payload. So = you know that you have a CW from the bottom label and by no other means. In other words the the FEC of the bottom label and its associated = parameters are the way that signalling protocol knows what instructions = to give the forwarder, and the way that the forwarder knows what to do = with the packet is from the instructions associated with the BoS label. = This is the universal model for MPLS including for IP packets. Stewart > On 19 Feb 2021, at 15:42, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = wrote: >=20 > Hi Stewart, >=20 > I still have to read more about DetNet, but I am not sure if there is = a real contention with PALS. >=20 > My understanding of 0000 nibble in PW control world is that it is only = to prevent a transit node from mistaking the payload as IP. Is it = supposed to indicate that any payload starting with 0000 is PW payload? = I hope not. >=20 > Use of 0000 nibble in GDFH is also just to prevent transit nodes from = mistaking it as IP. It does indicate it is GDFH. It should be able to = co-exist with PW CW. >=20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 10:35 PM > To: Stewart Bryant > Cc: int-area@ietf.org; mpls ; pals@ietf.org; Kireeti = Kompella ; Ron Bonica ; = > Subject: RE: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions >=20 > Stewart, all, >=20 > I apologize for not responding to this in time. I some how = accidentally moved a few wg mailing list email folders to a place where = I could not see so I missed all the discussions. > Let me catch up all the emails and then reply. >=20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stewart Bryant > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 9:59 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: Stewart Bryant ; int-area@ietf.org; mpls = ; pals@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella ; = Ron Bonica ; > Subject: Re: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions >=20 > [External Email. Be cautious of content] >=20 >=20 > Thank you Jeffery >=20 > Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after = BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet = is already using. >=20 > We plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next = IETF, but I think we also need to include the iOAM people. >=20 > This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates for BoS = metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure the = future health the MPLS protocol. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 >> On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> I just posted = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-= intarea-generic-delivery-functions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58LP6Diq96EdYE= e2kxFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b9MseV-Y$ . >>=20 >> The initial version was posted to the tsvwg = (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-tsvw= g-generic-transport-functions-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58LP6Diq96EdYEe2k= xFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b5lS_Jea$ ). After discussions/feedback = we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new version also contains quite = some changes based on the comments and feedback that we received = (special thanks to Stewart). >>=20 >> Comments and suggestions are appreciated. >>=20 >> Thanks. >> Jeffrey >>=20 >> Juniper Business Use Only >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only --Apple-Mail=_D7BFCA92-E2F2-4F40-8FD7-A70D53A99EA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The = DetNet CW is described in RFC8964 and is 


    0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |0 0 0 0| Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Figure 5: DetNet Control Word

    In all defined control words

    The 0000 is simply ECMP defeat and has =
    no other purpose.

    0001 means ACH

    An ACH is currently defined not to carry =
    service/user data - it is a control/OAM channel.

    You cannot assume anything about a =
    payload starting 0000.
    In MPLS the bottom =
    label (alone) defines how you process the payload. So you know that you =
    have a CW from the bottom label and by no other means.

    In other words the the FEC of the bottom =
    label and its associated parameters are the way that signalling protocol =
    knows what instructions to give the forwarder, and the way that the =
    forwarder knows what to do with the packet is from the instructions =
    associated with the BoS label. This is the universal model for MPLS =
    including for IP packets.
    Stewart


    On 19 Feb 2021, at 15:42, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> = wrote:

    Hi Stewart,

    I still have to read = more about DetNet, but I am not sure if there is a real contention with = PALS.

    My understanding of 0000 nibble in PW = control world is that it is only to prevent a transit node from = mistaking the payload as IP. Is it supposed to indicate that any payload = starting with 0000 is PW payload? I hope not.

    Use of 0000 nibble in GDFH is also just to prevent transit = nodes from mistaking it as IP. It does indicate it is GDFH. It should be = able to co-exist with PW CW.

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    -----Original = Message-----
    From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
    Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 10:35 PM
    To: = Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
    Cc: int-area@ietf.org; mpls = <mpls@ietf.org>; = pals@ietf.org; Kireeti = Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> = <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: = draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions

    Stewart, all,

    I apologize for = not responding to this in time. I some how accidentally moved a few wg = mailing list email folders to a place where I could not see so I missed = all the discussions.
    Let me catch up all the emails and = then reply.

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    -----Original Message-----
    From: = Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
    Sent: Tuesday, = January 12, 2021 9:59 AM
    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = <zzhang@juniper.net>
    Cc: Stewart Bryant = <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; int-area@ietf.org; mpls = <mpls@ietf.org>; = pals@ietf.org; Kireeti = Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> = <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: = draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]


    Thank you Jeffery

    Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to = sit after BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS = and DetNet is already using.

    We plan to = have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next IETF, but I = think we also need to include the iOAM people.

    This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates = for BoS metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure = the future health the MPLS protocol.

    - = Stewart


    On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) = Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:

    Hi,

    I just posted https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58L= P6Diq96EdYEe2kxFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b9MseV-Y$ .

    The initial version was posted to the tsvwg = (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-z= zhang-tsvwg-generic-transport-functions-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58LP6Di= q96EdYEe2kxFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b5lS_Jea$ ). After = discussions/feedback we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new version = also contains quite some changes based on the comments and feedback that = we received (special thanks to Stewart).

    Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    Juniper Business Use Only


    Juniper Business Use Only

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The CW then described whether the payload is a PW user payload of an ACH = using the 0001 IF you want to run OAM on an MPLS LSP as we do in MPLS-TP you have no CW = so you need another method of indicating the presence of the ACH and the = way that is done is with a GAL. The cleanest way to put fragmentation information at the BoS is to = create a new type MPLS payload construct the =E2=80=9Cfragwire=E2=80=9D = if you like push the metadata, push a label advertised by the recipient = that says that this is what is being done, then just the delivery label. You have to know that the target can do this, so the target can = advertise or otherwise provide a label saying what it needs as an = indicator. Job done and it is a private matter between sender and receiver. This is just reusing what is already in place today. Indeed if you make this a PW type, you only need a very short draft and = it is all done. - Stewart > On 19 Feb 2021, at 16:15, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = wrote: >=20 > Hi Rakesh, Yangfan, > =20 > I agree that a GDFH can follow the IOAM header and the two do not = contend. > =20 > It came to me though, the IOAM header could become a GDFH =F0=9F=98=8A = It can then be used for all transportations (MPLS, BIER, or even = ethernet). > =20 > I see that in your -06 version you treat IOAM as a G-ACH channel. = That does not seem to go well with the following in RFC 5586: > =20 > The G-ACh MUST NOT be used to transport user traffic. > =20 > However I am not against relaxing the above restriction a bit. > But I don=E2=80=99t understand why you need an =E2=80=9CIOAM Indicator = Label=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 there is already a special label G-ACh Label = (GAL). > For GDFH, I had designed to advertise regular labels to indicate that = a GDFH follows (I am always a good citizen when it comes to requesting = special labels). Seeing that G-Ach uses the GAL, and the following: > =20 > The ACH used by CC Type 1 is depicted in figure below: > =20 > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 1|Version| Reserved | Channel Type | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > =20 > Figure 1: Associated Channel Header > =20 > If the user traffic restriction could be lifted, it=E2=80=99s tempting = to treat GDFH as a G-Ach channel type. That way we don=E2=80=99t need to = advertise GDFH labels. > =20 > To answer Yangfan=E2=80=99s question =E2=80=9Cwhat is the difference = compared to G-AC=E2=80=9D in another email: GDFH is for generic delivery = function over different transports, and even when it is used over MPLS = it is different from the (original intention of) G-ACH. However, as = mentioned above, it=E2=80=99s tempting to treat GDFH as a channel type = just to be able use the already assigned GAL. > =20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey=20 > =20 > From: Rakesh Gandhi >=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 6:49 PM > To: Stewart Bryant > > Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >; mpls >; int-area@ietf.org ; = Kireeti Kompella >; Ron = Bonica >; = > >; pals@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions > =20 > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > =20 > Hi Stewart, > Hi Xiao, Loa, > FYI: > I believe the latest revision (06) addresses this comment. Welcome = your feedback on that. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr-06 = > =20 > Thanks for your review.=20 > Regards, > Rakesh > =20 > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Rakesh Gandhi > wrote: > Hi Stewart, > Thanks for your comments. If we have a mechanism like following, does = that address the issue? > IOAM header is part of the MPLS encapsulation, any other control word = is added after the IOAM header in the data packet. > The transit nodes can process the IOAM data field(s) after the EOS in = data packets as it is proposed. > The decapsulating node removes the MPLS encapsulation including the = IOAM header and then processes the other control word following it. > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | IOAM Indicator Label | TC |1| TTL | > = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+ > |0 0 0 1|Version| Reserved | IOAM G-ACh | = | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ = | > | Reserved | Block Number | IOAM-OPT-Type |IOAM HDR Length| = | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ = I > | | = O > | | = A > ~ IOAM Option and Data Space ~ = M > | | = | > | | = | > = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+ > |0 0 0 0| Rsved | This Header | Header Length | Next Header | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > ~ Variable field per =E2=80=9CThis header=E2=80=9D = ~ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | | > | | > ~ Payload Packet ~ > | | > | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > =20 > Thanks, > Rakesh > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:00 AM Stewart Bryant = > wrote: > Thank you Jeffery >=20 > Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after = BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet = is already using. >=20 > We plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next = IETF, but I think we also need to include the iOAM people. >=20 > This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates for BoS = metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure the = future health the MPLS protocol. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 > > On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = > wrote: > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > I just posted = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-fun= ctions/ = . > >=20 > > The initial version was posted to the tsvwg = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-tsvwg-generic-transport-function= s-00 = ). After discussions/feedback we = are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new version also contains quite = some changes based on the comments and feedback that we received = (special thanks to Stewart). > >=20 > > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. > >=20 > > Thanks. > > Jeffrey > >=20 > > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls = > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 --Apple-Mail=_3A951D22-17FD-444F-A5B4-54129168FBE2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The = way that a forwarder processing a PW  knows that a CW follows is = because it is a parameter of the FEC of the PW label that is BoS.

    The CW then described = whether the payload is a PW user payload of an ACH using the = 0001

    IF you = want to run OAM on an MPLS LSP as we do in MPLS-TP you have no CW so you = need another method of indicating the presence of the ACH and the way = that is done is with a GAL.

    The cleanest way to put fragmentation information at the BoS = is to create a new type MPLS payload construct the =E2=80=9Cfragwire=E2=80= =9D if you like push the metadata, push a label advertised by the = recipient that says that this is what is being done, then just the = delivery label.

    You have to know that the target can do this, so the target = can advertise or otherwise provide a label saying what it needs as an = indicator.

    Job = done and it is a private matter between sender and receiver.

    This is just reusing = what is already in place today.

    Indeed if you make this a PW type, you = only need a very short draft and it is all done.

    - Stewart


    On 19 Feb 2021, at 16:15, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> = wrote:

    Hi Rakesh, Yangfan,
     
    I agree that a GDFH can = follow the IOAM header and the two do not contend.
     
    It came to me though, the = IOAM header could become a GDFH =F0=9F=98=8A It can then be used for = all transportations (MPLS, BIER, or even ethernet).
     
    I see that in your -06 = version you treat IOAM as  a G-ACH channel. That does not seem to = go well with the following in RFC 5586:
     
       The G-ACh MUST NOT be = used to transport user traffic.
     
    However I am not against relaxing the above = restriction a bit.
    But I = don=E2=80=99t understand why you need an =E2=80=9CIOAM Indicator = Label=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 there is already a special label G-ACh Label = (GAL).
    For GDFH, I had designed = to advertise regular labels to indicate that a GDFH follows (I am always = a good citizen when it comes to requesting special labels). Seeing that = G-Ach uses the GAL, and the following:
     
       The ACH used by CC Type 1 is depicted in figure =
    below:
     
        =
    0            &=
    nbsp;      =
    1            &=
    nbsp;      =
    2            &=
    nbsp;      3
        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 =
    8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       =
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |0 0 0 =
    1|Version|   Reserved    =
    |         Channel =
    Type          |
       =
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     
              &nb=
    sp;         Figure 1: Associated =
    Channel Header
     
    If the user traffic = restriction could be lifted, it=E2=80=99s tempting to treat GDFH as a = G-Ach channel type. That way we don=E2=80=99t need to advertise GDFH = labels.
     
    To answer Yangfan=E2=80=99s = question =E2=80=9Cwhat is the difference compared to G-AC=E2=80=9D in = another email: GDFH is for generic delivery function over different = transports, and even when it is used over MPLS it is different from the = (original intention of) G-ACH. However, as mentioned above, it=E2=80=99s = tempting to treat GDFH as a channel type just to be able use the already = assigned GAL.
     
    Thanks.
    Jeffrey 
     
    From: Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com> 
    Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 = 6:49 PM
    To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
    Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = <zzhang@juniper.net>; mpls = <mpls@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron = Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; = <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; pals@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [mpls] = draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions
     
    [External Email. Be = cautious of content]
     
    Hi = Stewart,
    Hi Xiao, Loa,
    FYI:
    I believe = the latest revision (06) addresses this comment. Welcome your feedback = on that.
     
    Thanks for your review. 
    Regards,
    Rakesh
     
    On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Rakesh Gandhi = <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:
    Hi = Stewart,
    Thanks= for your comments. If we have a mechanism like following, does that = address the issue?
    1. IOAM = header is part of the MPLS encapsulation, any other control word is = added after the IOAM header in the data packet.
    2. The transit nodes can process the = IOAM data field(s) after the EOS in data packets as it is = proposed.
    3. The decapsulating node removes the = MPLS encapsulation including the IOAM header and then processes the = other control word following it.
       = 0            &= nbsp;      = 1            &= nbsp;      = 2            &= nbsp;      3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       | IOAM Indicator = Label           &nb= sp;      | TC  |1|  = TTL          |
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+
       |0 0 0 1|Version| = Reserved      | IOAM = G-ACh           &nb= sp;        |  |
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  = |
       | = Reserved      | Block Number  | = IOAM-OPT-Type |IOAM HDR Length|  |
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+  = I
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |  O
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |  A
       = ~            &= nbsp;    IOAM Option and Data = Space           &nb= sp;        ~  M
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |  |
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |  |
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+
       |0 0 0 0| Rsved | This = Header   | Header Length | Next Header   = |
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       = ~            &= nbsp; Variable field per =E2=80=9CThis = header=E2=80=9D          = ;       ~
      =  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       |         &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;    |
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |
       = ~            &= nbsp;    Payload = Packet           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;        ~
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |
       = |            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp; |
       = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     
    Thanks,
    Rakesh
     
     
     
    On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:00 AM Stewart Bryant = <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
    Thank you Jeffery

    Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who = also want to sit after BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space = that PALS and DetNet is already using.

    We = plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next IETF, = but I think we also need to include the iOAM people.

    This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates = for BoS metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure = the future health the MPLS protocol.

    - = Stewart


    > On 12 Jan 2021, = at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> = wrote:
    > 
    > Hi,
    > 
    > I just posted https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-d= elivery-functions/.
    > 
    > The = initial version was posted to the tsvwg (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-tsvwg-generic-transpor= t-functions-00). After discussions/feedback we are re-homing it to = intarea wg. This new version also contains quite some changes based on = the comments and feedback that we received (special thanks to = Stewart).
    > 
    > = Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
    > 
    > = Thanks.
    > Jeffrey
    > 
    > Juniper = Business Use Only

    _______________________________________________
    mpls mailing list
    mpls@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
    <= br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: = none;" class=3D"">

    Juniper Business Use Only


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definitions=main-2102220195 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:14:43 -0800 Subject: Re: [Int-area] [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 22:44:49 -0000 --_000_MN2PR05MB5981B0D2443568DEEF2D8206D4819MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU3Rld2FydCwNCg0KR0RGIGlzIGZvciBhbnkgdHJhbnNwb3J0YXRpb25zLCBNUExTIGJlaW5n IG9mIHRoZSB0cmFuc3BvcnRhdGlvbnMuDQpIZXJlIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBpcywgaW4gY2FzZSBv ZiBNUExTLCBob3cgZG8gd2UgZG8gaXQuDQoNCkkgZGlkIGRlc2lnbiBpdCB0byBhZHZlcnRpc2Ug YSBHREYgbGFiZWwgc28gdGhhdCB3ZSBrbm93IHRoYXQgYSBHREZIIGlzIGF0IEJvUzsgYW5kIEkg bWFrZSB0aGUgR0RGSCBzdGFydCB3aXRoIDAwMDBiIHNvIHRoYXQgaXQgd29u4oCZdCBiZSBtaXN0 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4h0pFXJejCC; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F25013A0883; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id b3so20871112wrj.5; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:29:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=yD+j7BqPnoxRHkBX46tMv/Cls43pC0LMmRDhvXfTGAE=; b=VDvtz7VKpjY1lD1j6yjzBn11RzGZ/DiQWGjGk3fMA3O0HcQ17WRI3jdfBqKRdpqmZq 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ABdhPJx98JwZES+w6AkmBCP9zXbAGaGwZF9ddTyR+9GI6iEGG3AC7vlbfeB1InySbKShJfimHScCwQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1184:: with SMTP id g4mr10810829wrx.322.1614040186227; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.8.102] ([148.252.129.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p9sm878687wma.14.2021.02.22.16.29.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:29:45 -0800 (PST) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A6E7E497-CAE5-47CD-A17A-DA98FD4761E1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:29:44 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stewart Bryant , "int-area@ietf.org" , mpls , "pals@ietf.org" , Kireeti Kompella , Ronald Bonica , "" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:29:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A6E7E497-CAE5-47CD-A17A-DA98FD4761E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 What happens if an operator wants to run both iOAM and GDFH at the same = time and the packet is a PW packet? What does the packet look like and how does the forwarder know what to = do? - Stewart > On 22 Feb 2021, at 22:49, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = wrote: >=20 > Hi Stewart, > =20 > This thread started with your comment =E2=80=9CPlease see the note = that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after BoS =E2=80=A6 and both = of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet is already using=E2=80=9D,= but now it seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page =E2=80=93 GDFH = starting with 0000b is fine and is not competing with IOAM or PW/DETNET = CW? > =20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey > =20 > From: Stewart Bryant >=20 > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 5:15 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Stewart Bryant >; int-area@ietf.org = ; mpls >; = pals@ietf.org ; Kireeti Kompella = >; Ron Bonica = >; > > > Subject: Re: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions > =20 > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > =20 > The DetNet CW is described in RFC8964 and is =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |0 0 0 0| Sequence Number | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > =20 > Figure 5: DetNet Control Word > =20 > In all defined control words > =20 > The 0000 is simply ECMP defeat and has no other purpose. > =20 > 0001 means ACH=20 > =20 > An ACH is currently defined not to carry service/user data - it is a = control/OAM channel. > =20 > You cannot assume anything about a payload starting 0000. > =20 > In MPLS the bottom label (alone) defines how you process the payload. = So you know that you have a CW from the bottom label and by no other = means. > =20 > In other words the the FEC of the bottom label and its associated = parameters are the way that signalling protocol knows what instructions = to give the forwarder, and the way that the forwarder knows what to do = with the packet is from the instructions associated with the BoS label. = This is the universal model for MPLS including for IP packets. > =20 > Stewart > =20 > =20 > On 19 Feb 2021, at 15:42, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > wrote: > =20 > Hi Stewart, >=20 > I still have to read more about DetNet, but I am not sure if there is = a real contention with PALS. >=20 > My understanding of 0000 nibble in PW control world is that it is only = to prevent a transit node from mistaking the payload as IP. Is it = supposed to indicate that any payload starting with 0000 is PW payload? = I hope not. >=20 > Use of 0000 nibble in GDFH is also just to prevent transit nodes from = mistaking it as IP. It does indicate it is GDFH. It should be able to = co-exist with PW CW. >=20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 10:35 PM > To: Stewart Bryant > > Cc: int-area@ietf.org ; mpls >; pals@ietf.org ; Kireeti = Kompella >; Ron Bonica = >; > > > Subject: RE: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions >=20 > Stewart, all, >=20 > I apologize for not responding to this in time. I some how = accidentally moved a few wg mailing list email folders to a place where = I could not see so I missed all the discussions. > Let me catch up all the emails and then reply. >=20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stewart Bryant > > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 9:59 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Stewart Bryant >; int-area@ietf.org = ; mpls >; = pals@ietf.org ; Kireeti Kompella = >; Ron Bonica = >; > > > Subject: Re: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions >=20 > [External Email. Be cautious of content] >=20 >=20 > Thank you Jeffery >=20 > Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after = BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet = is already using. >=20 > We plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next = IETF, but I think we also need to include the iOAM people. >=20 > This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates for BoS = metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure the = future health the MPLS protocol. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I just posted = https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-= intarea-generic-delivery-functions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58LP6Diq96EdYE= e2kxFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b9MseV-Y$ = . >=20 > The initial version was posted to the tsvwg = (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-tsvw= g-generic-transport-functions-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58LP6Diq96EdYEe2k= xFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b5lS_Jea$ = ). After discussions/feedback = we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new version also contains quite = some changes based on the comments and feedback that we received = (special thanks to Stewart). >=20 > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. >=20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only > =20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A6E7E497-CAE5-47CD-A17A-DA98FD4761E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 What = happens if an operator wants to run both iOAM and GDFH at the same time = and the packet is a PW packet?

    What does the packet look like and how does the forwarder = know what to do?

    - Stewart

    On 22 = Feb 2021, at 22:49, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> = wrote:

    Hi Stewart,
     
    This thread started with = your comment =E2=80=9CPlease see the note that I sent about iOAM who = also want to sit after BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space = that PALS and DetNet is already using=E2=80=9D, but now it seems that = we=E2=80=99re on the same page =E2=80=93 GDFH starting with 0000b is = fine and is not competing with IOAM or PW/DETNET CW?
     
    Thanks.
    Jeffrey
     
    From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> 
    Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 = 5:15 AM
    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = <zzhang@juniper.net>
    Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; int-area@ietf.org; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; pals@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron = Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; = <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: = draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions
     
    [External Email. Be = cautious of content]
     
    The DetNet CW is described in RFC8964 = and is  
     
     
     
          =
    0            &=
    nbsp;      =
    1            &=
    nbsp;      =
    2            &=
    nbsp;      3
          0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 =
    9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
        =
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
        =
     |0 0 0 =
    0|            =
        Sequence =
    Number           &n=
    bsp;            =
    |
        =
     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
     
              &nb=
    sp;            =
    Figure 5: DetNet Control Word
     
    In all defined control words
     
    The 0000 is simply =
    ECMP defeat and has no other purpose.
     
    0001 means ACH 
     
    An ACH is currently defined not to carry =
    service/user data - it is a control/OAM channel.
     
    You cannot assume =
    anything about a payload starting 0000.
     
    In MPLS the bottom label (alone) defines how you =
    process the payload. So you know that you have a CW from the bottom =
    label and by no other means.
     
    In other words the the FEC of the bottom label =
    and its associated parameters are the way that signalling protocol knows =
    what instructions to give the forwarder, and the way that the forwarder =
    knows what to do with the packet is from the instructions associated =
    with the BoS label. This is the universal model for MPLS including for =
    IP packets.
     
    Stewart
     
     
    On 19 Feb 2021, at 15:42, Jeffrey = (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> = wrote:
     
    Hi Stewart,

    I still = have to read more about DetNet, but I am not sure if there is a real = contention with PALS.

    My understanding of = 0000 nibble in PW control world is that it is only to prevent a transit = node from mistaking the payload as IP. Is it supposed to indicate that = any payload starting with 0000 is PW payload? I hope not.

    Use of 0000 nibble in GDFH is also just to = prevent transit nodes from mistaking it as IP. It does indicate it is = GDFH. It should be able to co-exist with PW CW.

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jeffrey = (Zhaohui) Zhang
    Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2021 10:35 = PM
    To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
    Cc: int-area@ietf.org; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; pals@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron = Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; = <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
    Subject: = RE: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions

    Stewart, all,

    I apologize for = not responding to this in time. I some how accidentally moved a few wg = mailing list email folders to a place where I could not see so I missed = all the discussions.
    Let me catch up all the emails and = then reply.

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    -----Original Message-----
    From: = Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
    Sent: Tuesday, = January 12, 2021 9:59 AM
    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang = <zzhang@juniper.net>
    Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; int-area@ietf.org; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; pals@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron = Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; = <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
    Subject: = Re: draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]


    Thank you Jeffery

    Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to = sit after BoS =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS = and DetNet is already using.

    We plan to = have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next IETF, but I = think we also need to include the iOAM people.

    This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates = for BoS metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure = the future health the MPLS protocol.

    - = Stewart



    On 12 Jan 2021, at = 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:

    Hi,

    I just posted https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58L= P6Diq96EdYEe2kxFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b9MseV-Y$ .

    The initial version was posted to the tsvwg (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-z= zhang-tsvwg-generic-transport-functions-00__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!QyBnufJO58LP6Di= q96EdYEe2kxFtiItOdNuXbu_RIMekK2pkpOj4Mmj7b5lS_Jea$ ). After = discussions/feedback we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new version = also contains quite some changes based on the comments and feedback that = we received (special thanks to Stewart).

    Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    Juniper Business Use Only


    Juniper Business Use Only
     

    Juniper Business Use = Only


    = --Apple-Mail=_A6E7E497-CAE5-47CD-A17A-DA98FD4761E1-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 16:30:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21AB3A22BC; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:30:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M6qtoW6E9j-N; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C87443A2257; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61169548053; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:30:16 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 55872440163; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:30:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:30:16 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" , mpls , "pals@ietf.org" , Kireeti Kompella , Ron Bonica Message-ID: <20210223003016.GA4493@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 00:30:35 -0000 Hi Jeff, *. I am very supportive of i think what could be the spirit of this draft (and similar drafts that Stewart mentioned exist), but i am quite worried about some of the current fundamentals: This looks a lot like "i have a point problem (MPLS fragmentation), but to sell it better, i will give it a more inclusive name, but i don't really care that much about the other 99% opportunity/challenges". (not that i am blaming you for trying, just wanting to point this out ;-) Aka: before this type of draft can earn its ambitious name i think it needs to support a lot more use cases and include solutions for "generic" problems. For example: - If something claims to be "generic" but does not propose to apply it to what is our tier 1 protocol, IPv6, then its more like "generic for the leftover (non IPv6)", and we will continue to still have to provide (unnecessarily) multiple options to do the same thing. Aka: superceeding and replacing existing IPv6 extension options would be the most solid and important stake in the ground to claim "generic". - If we want IEEE to use this, there needs to be a) more work on how to use it with ethernet,and b) a way to establish different code-point registries, so IEEE could define options for this header by themselves. At least IMHO to maximize the opportunity for IEEE to drive this forwrd. I am saying this also because in my non-scientific opinion, the likelyhood for better QoS extension headers to be built are much better if we leave it up to IEEE and then inherit what they have done. Which could be helped by an extension header that IEEE would like to use and extend but that would also easily be able to be used with MPLS and IP. At least that's my somewhat frustrated opinion about IETFs progress on Qos given how we still think after 40 years "8 TOS bits are good enough forever", L4S trying to overload an ECN bit, and only MPLS having been able to partially catch up in DetNet with what TSN did in ethernet. - We ultimately will have layers of header to which such a header could be applied, such as ethernet+mpls+ip, and quite frankly i think we need a way to be able to have such a header only once instead of replicating it three times, which is what we typically would do these days if we needed the processing at all three layers. Aka: push up/down the header whenever we push/pop one of the encapsulations. Just as one idea. - Encoding and forwarding plane support requirements for future extensions. Aka: i don't want to see for any future extensions the typical never ending discussions about what would be an appropriate way to encode them so that all hardware can support it. I think we should have enough of that problem in the wake of SRH now in Spring. If we want to call something generic, it should define mandatory encoding rules to be supported for any future extensions. Of course, this doesn't say that any extension function could be supported by any hardware, but it gets us one step closer. FOr example by codifying a mandatory encoding for variable length / optional parameters. Without any intent to work on such broader strategy aspects, the use of the word "generic" is IMHO inappropriate. Cheers Toerless From nobody Mon Feb 22 18:21:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58FF3A242A; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:21:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sEzfhvLVYGui; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F11A43A2429; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml744-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Dl2jK1YT2z67rbX; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:16:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) by fraeml744-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.225) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:21:44 +0100 Received: from fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) by fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:21:43 +0100 Received: from DGGEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.41) by fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:21:43 +0100 Received: from DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.50]) by dggeml424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:21:38 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "apn@ietf.org" CC: "rtgwg@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Drafts updated Thread-Index: AdcJiot5DQ4rMbFdRTKr3nCUPHCpqw== Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:21:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398F@DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.195.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398FDGGEML532MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Drafts updated X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:21:48 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398FDGGEML532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, We have updated the following APN drafts. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-framework-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-03 Your reviews and comments are very welcomed. Thank you! Best regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398FDGGEML532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Dear all,

     

    We have updated the following A= PN drafts.

     

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn= -framework-02

    https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-03

     

    Your reviews and comments are v= ery welcomed. Thank you!

     

    Best regards,=

    Shuping

    --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398FDGGEML532MBXchi_-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 18:24:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C2A3A2271; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:00:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkZ9Qb6Zmerk; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F5D53A226B; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id p21so8644956lfu.11; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:00:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bgxCxbUmxI7rVx7ttOk2criOmOR3vNwt1Uw6dvDU3sM=; b=azT1ZQG73sSKeqXl01jOL+FSbR77aQrDIgJ/HNvVXVMtbw7Ux8uTMtXvdmSBbjhdET lYVcdfKfuhWMfHE7PCuBn4kBLpLIJ7mTYKB15p0LuospEjvZmHGOgTINOYnPLzvOG9fP q5scJnbNeyaCZ1DvVqT83MmCRLtOxabjCgMCPvBEN4rER0Wcsy943eEZqRVQSyBGnXVI 0wO2Ll6OXiJRxh1gSg2ykFZeTmUNvhl5UTuMhUHxB0MiJ63ER5/3SDoy2Jn+2Q/XAyLb +yJgm9ipr/fjrOSzaxh7tReb+OA21yCJkZn3KNzrSTDIWQXH31oxCbvhmfQPLau4owge Afyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bgxCxbUmxI7rVx7ttOk2criOmOR3vNwt1Uw6dvDU3sM=; b=QQ+SOqlUcimOWpBsOye55yleM4g2deagMjWoqqZ3NN2cS4z7T4TExhpG+Cq2WWHcNz 0+vBlSVGSX0h1wLvg9CTs9Uvf6Or8j5UssJT2lGiHReLjj+Bk1eHpjIRQKvPLl1j99+/ 7Oqb1qeWwyGNDcxHgGnBTGMmm5OKBnNW7Lb4fatHxDvBzjHgCVzE2yWyzPzl7KA/Y1nG bb4dDdEx9FNcCrL8X9d0fefOv33X0sV7GLdNEAOrw1w3xed3GyX3qZGKlJ8dxRpeOoHd JCR7cDRZqKql/yvvnzpTS19E+nm7Pg8yGgtHO0yFcE4tvb2G0Iw4DVC51/ylGJig9CoX L5fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532a6YmVvSCTETamWp58FAeF568fPKvPsQZfekIgjwMijmoaAD2w 0wG+KpQ6HV6fzhXBBA/wsf1pyalp1Uog8qrqiY8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwP3oZxVF6Tb1Dp+ev9C0DDwetbiFFxBd5EyksRaGkw2X9oZvuo1xUBWVDWQ2DcGeAFRY9bs2K5VJJFO2sXtkA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:108e:: with SMTP id j14mr14047218lfg.364.1614042039046; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:00:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <303C7C83-6AE7-41FC-98A6-EE87DA2AFDFE@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:00:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: Stewart Bryant , Rakesh Gandhi , "Yangfan (IP Standard" , mpls , "int-area@ietf.org" , Kireeti Kompella , Ron Bonica , "" , "pals@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063d5d005bbf6729d" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:24:19 -0800 Subject: Re: [Int-area] [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 01:00:45 -0000 --00000000000063d5d005bbf6729d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeffrey, I have read the draft and find it very interesting. I've got a question, perhaps we can discuss: - if I understand it correctly, GDFH shim creates a new network layer. How you envision OAM at that layer can be identified? BIER uses protocol type. MPLS - GAL. IP - ICMP and, in UDP transport, well-known port numbe= rs as the destination. Could it be assigned value from This Header registry= ? (Note, that This Header and Header Length appear swapped in Fig.2 compar= ed to Fig.3 and Fig.4) Regards, Greg On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 2:44 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > Hi Stewart, > > > > GDF is for any transportations, MPLS being of the transportations. > > Here the question is, in case of MPLS, how do we do it. > > > > I did design it to advertise a GDF label so that we know that a GDFH is a= t > BoS; and I make the GDFH start with 0000b so that it won=E2=80=99t be mis= taken as > an IP header. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t see why using 0000b in GDFH is contending with IOAM (even= if it > uses 0000b) and PW CW? > > > > I was incorrectly thinking that IOAM was using GAL, so I was thinking, if > IOAM (which I think it is user traffic with OAM info embedded) could use > GAL, then perhaps GAL=E2=80=99s restriction for user-traffic could be lif= ted, and > in that case GDF go with G-ACH using GAL. > > > > Now I realize that I can=E2=80=99t really use GAL. In that case, I think = it=E2=80=99s > better to be independent of PW and G-ACH =E2=80=93 this is not only the > fragmentation function. > > > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant > *Sent:* Monday, February 22, 2021 5:39 AM > *To:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > *Cc:* Stewart Bryant ; Rakesh Gandhi < > rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com>; Yangfan (IP Standard ; > Greg Mirsky ; mpls ; > int-area@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella ; Ron Bonica < > rbonica@juniper.net>; ; pals@ietf.or= g > *Subject:* Re: [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > The way that a forwarder processing a PW knows that a CW follows is > because it is a parameter of the FEC of the PW label that is BoS. > > > > The CW then described whether the payload is a PW user payload of an ACH > using the 0001 > > > > IF you want to run OAM on an MPLS LSP as we do in MPLS-TP you have no CW > so you need another method of indicating the presence of the ACH and the > way that is done is with a GAL. > > > > The cleanest way to put fragmentation information at the BoS is to create > a new type MPLS payload construct the =E2=80=9Cfragwire=E2=80=9D if you l= ike push the > metadata, push a label advertised by the recipient that says that this is > what is being done, then just the delivery label. > > > > You have to know that the target can do this, so the target can advertise > or otherwise provide a label saying what it needs as an indicator. > > > > Job done and it is a private matter between sender and receiver. > > > > This is just reusing what is already in place today. > > > > Indeed if you make this a PW type, you only need a very short draft and i= t > is all done. > > > > - Stewart > > > > > > On 19 Feb 2021, at 16:15, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > wrote: > > > > Hi Rakesh, Yangfan, > > > > I agree that a GDFH can follow the IOAM header and the two do not contend= . > > > > It came to me though, the IOAM header could become a GDFH =F0=9F=98=8A It= can then > be used for all transportations (MPLS, BIER, or even ethernet). > > > > I see that in your -06 version you treat IOAM as a G-ACH channel. That > does not seem to go well with the following in RFC 5586: > > > > The G-ACh MUST NOT be used to transport user traffic. > > > > However I am not against relaxing the above restriction a bit. > > But I don=E2=80=99t understand why you need an =E2=80=9CIOAM Indicator La= bel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 there is > already a special label G-ACh Label (GAL). > > For GDFH, I had designed to advertise regular labels to indicate that a > GDFH follows (I am always a good citizen when it comes to requesting > special labels). Seeing that G-Ach uses the GAL, and the following: > > > > The ACH used by CC Type 1 is depicted in figure below: > > > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > |0 0 0 1|Version| Reserved | Channel Type | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > Figure 1: Associated Channel Header > > > > If the user traffic restriction could be lifted, it=E2=80=99s tempting to= treat > GDFH as a G-Ach channel type. That way we don=E2=80=99t need to advertise= GDFH > labels. > > > > To answer Yangfan=E2=80=99s question =E2=80=9Cwhat is the difference comp= ared to G-AC=E2=80=9D in > another email: GDFH is for generic delivery function over different > transports, and even when it is used over MPLS it is different from the > (original intention of) G-ACH. However, as mentioned above, it=E2=80=99s = tempting > to treat GDFH as a channel type just to be able use the already assigned > GAL. > > > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > > > *From:* Rakesh Gandhi > *Sent:* Thursday, February 18, 2021 6:49 PM > *To:* Stewart Bryant > *Cc:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; mpls ; > int-area@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella ; Ron Bonica < > rbonica@juniper.net>; ; pals@ietf.or= g > *Subject:* Re: [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > Hi Stewart, > > Hi Xiao, Loa, > > FYI: > > I believe the latest revision (06) addresses this comment. Welcome your > feedback on that. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr-06 > > > > > Thanks for your review. > > Regards, > > Rakesh > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Rakesh Gandhi > wrote: > > Hi Stewart, > > Thanks for your comments. If we have a mechanism like following, does tha= t > address the issue? > > 1. IOAM header is part of the MPLS encapsulation, any other control > word is added after the IOAM header in the data packet. > 2. The transit nodes can process the IOAM data field(s) after the EOS > in data packets as it is proposed. > 3. The decapsulating node removes the MPLS encapsulation including the > IOAM header and then processes the other control word following it. > > 0 1 2 3 > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | IOAM Indicator Label | TC |1| TTL | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+ > > |0 0 0 1|Version| Reserved | IOAM G-ACh | | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | > > | Reserved | Block Number | IOAM-OPT-Type |IOAM HDR Length| | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ I > > | | O > > | | A > > ~ IOAM Option and Data Space ~ M > > | | | > > | | | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+ > > |0 0 0 0| Rsved | This Header | Header Length | Next Header | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > ~ Variable field per =E2=80=9CThis header=E2=80=9D = ~ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > | | > > | | > > ~ Payload Packet ~ > > | | > > | | > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:00 AM Stewart Bryant > wrote: > > Thank you Jeffery > > Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after BoS > =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet is alr= eady using. > > We plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next IETF, > but I think we also need to include the iOAM people. > > This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates for BoS > metadata so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure the futu= re > health the MPLS protocol. > > - Stewart > > > > On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I just posted > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-fu= nctions/ > > . > > > > The initial version was posted to the tsvwg ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-tsvwg-generic-transport-function= s-00 > ). > After discussions/feedback we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new > version also contains quite some changes based on the comments and feedba= ck > that we received (special thanks to Stewart). > > > > Comments and suggestions are appreciated. > > > > Thanks. > > Jeffrey > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > --00000000000063d5d005bbf6729d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Jeffrey,
    I have read the draft and find it very int= eresting. I've got a question, perhaps we can discuss:
      if I understand it correctly, GDFH shim creates a new network layer. How = you envision OAM at that layer can be identified? BIER uses protocol type. = MPLS - GAL. IP - ICMP and, in UDP transport, well-known port numbers as the= destination. Could it be assigned value from This Header registry? (Note, = that This Header and Header Length appear swapped in Fig.2 compared to Fig.= 3 and Fig.4)
    Regards,
    Greg

    On Mon, Feb 2= 2, 2021 at 2:44 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:

    Hi Stewart,

    =C2=A0

    GDF is for any transportations, MPLS being of the tr= ansportations.

    Here the question is, in case of MPLS, how do we do = it.

    =C2=A0

    I did design it to advertise a GDF label so that we = know that a GDFH is at BoS; and I make the GDFH start with 0000b so that it= won=E2=80=99t be mistaken as an IP header.

    =C2=A0

    I don=E2=80=99t see why using 0000b in GDFH is conte= nding with IOAM (even if it uses 0000b) and PW CW?

    =C2=A0

    I was incorrectly thinking that IOAM was using GAL, = so I was thinking, if IOAM (which I think it is user traffic with OAM info = embedded) could use GAL, then perhaps GAL=E2=80=99s restriction for user-tr= affic could be lifted, and in that case GDF go with G-ACH using GAL.

    =C2=A0

    Now I realize that I can=E2=80=99t really use GAL. I= n that case, I think it=E2=80=99s better to be independent of PW and G-ACH = =E2=80=93 this is not only the fragmentation function.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey

    =C2=A0

    From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> =
    Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 5:39 AM
    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
    Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.co= m>; Yangfan (IP Standard <shirley.yangfan@huawei.com>; Greg Mirsky &l= t;gregimirsky@gm= ail.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron Bonica <rb= onica@juniper.net>; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; pals@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions<= u>

    =C2=A0

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]

    =C2=A0

    The way that a forwarder processing a PW =C2=A0knows= that a CW follows is because it is a parameter of the FEC of the PW label = that is BoS.

    =C2=A0

    The CW then described whether the payload is a PW us= er payload of an ACH using the 0001

    =C2=A0

    IF you want to run OAM on an MPLS LSP as we do in MP= LS-TP you have no CW so you need another method of indicating the presence = of the ACH and the way that is done is with a GAL.

    =C2=A0

    The cleanest way to put fragmentation information at= the BoS is to create a new type MPLS payload construct the =E2=80=9Cfragwi= re=E2=80=9D if you like push the metadata, push a label advertised by the r= ecipient that says that this is what is being done, then just the delivery label.

    =C2=A0

    You have to know that the target can do this, so the= target can advertise or otherwise provide a label saying what it needs as = an indicator.

    =C2=A0

    Job done and it is a private matter between sender a= nd receiver.

    =C2=A0

    This is just reusing what is already in place today.=

    =C2=A0

    Indeed if you make this a PW type, you only need a v= ery short draft and it is all done.

    =C2=A0

    - Stewart

    =C2=A0



    On 19 Feb 2021, at 16:15, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &l= t;zzhang@juniper.ne= t> wrote:

    =C2=A0

    Hi Rakesh, Yangfan,

    =C2=A0

    I agree that a GDFH can follow the IOAM header and t= he two do not contend.

    =C2=A0

    It came to me though, the IOAM header could become a= GDFH=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=8A=C2=A0It can then be used fo= r all transportations (MPLS, BIER, or even ethernet).

    =C2=A0

    I see that in your -06 version you treat IOAM as=C2= =A0 a G-ACH channel. That does not seem to go well with the following in RF= C 5586:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 The G-ACh MUST NOT be used to transport user tr= affic.

    =C2=A0

    However I am not against relaxing the above restrict= ion a bit.

    But I don=E2=80=99t understand why you need an =E2= =80=9CIOAM Indicator Label=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 there is already a special la= bel G-ACh Label (GAL).

    For GDFH, I had designed to advertise regular labels= to indicate that a GDFH follows (I am always a good citizen when it comes = to requesting special labels). Seeing that G-Ach uses the GAL, and the foll= owing:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 The ACH used by CC Type 1 =
    is depicted in figure below:
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
    =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
    =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
    =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 3
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 =
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 1|Version|=C2=A0=C2=
    =A0 Reserved=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
    =C2=A0 Channel Type=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=
    
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
    =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
     Figure 1: Associated Channel Header

    =C2=A0

    If the user traffic restriction could be lifted, it= =E2=80=99s tempting to treat GDFH as a G-Ach channel type. That way we don= =E2=80=99t need to advertise GDFH labels.

    =C2=A0

    To answer Yangfan=E2=80=99s question =E2=80=9Cwhat i= s the difference compared to G-AC=E2=80=9D in another email: GDFH is for ge= neric delivery function over different transports, and even when it is used= over MPLS it is different from the (original intention of) G-ACH. However, as mentioned above, it=E2=80=99s tempting to treat GDFH as= a channel type just to be able use the already assigned GAL.=

    =C2=A0

    Thanks.
    Jeffrey=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From:=C2=A0Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail= .com>=C2=A0
    Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, February 18, 2021 6:49 PM
    To:=C2=A0Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
    Cc:=C2=A0Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; mpls <= mpls@ietf.org>;=C2=A0int= -area@ietf.org; Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;= =C2=A0pals@= ietf.org
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [mpls] draft-zzhang-intarea-generic-d= elivery-functions

    =C2=A0

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]

    =C2=A0

    Hi Stewart,

    Hi Xiao, Loa,

    FYI:

    I believe the latest revision (06) addresses this co= mment. Welcome your feedback on that.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks for your review.=C2=A0=

    Regards,

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:57 PM Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmai= l.com> wrote:

    Hi Stewart,=

    Thanks for your comme= nts. If we have a mechanism like following, does that address the issue?

    1. IOAM header is part = of the MPLS encapsulation, any other control word is added after the IOAM h= eader in the data packet.
    2. = The transit nodes can process the IOAM data = field(s) after the EOS in data packets as it is proposed.<= /u>
    3. The decapsul= ating node removes the MPLS encapsulation including the IOAM header and the= n processes the other control word following it.
    4. <= /ol>

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 3

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 = 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 | IOAM Indicator Label=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | TC=C2=A0 |1|=C2=A0 TTL=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 1|Version| Reserved=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | IOAM G-ACh=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 | Reserved=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 | Block Number=C2=A0 | IOAM-OPT-Type |IOAM HDR Length|=C2=A0 |=

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 I

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 O

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 A

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 ~=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IOAM = Option and Data Space=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ~=C2=A0 M=

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |0 0 0 0| Rsved | = This Header=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Header Length | Next Header=C2=A0=C2=A0 |<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 ~=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Variable field= per =E2=80=9CThis header=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ~

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+= -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 ~=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Paylo= ad Packet=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ~

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:00 AM Stewart Bryant <= stewart.bryan= t@gmail.com> wrote:

    Thank you Jeffery

    Please see the note that I sent about iOAM who also want to sit after BoS = =E2=80=A6 and both of you want the same space that PALS and DetNet is alrea= dy using.

    We plan to have a joint session on this hosted by PALS at the next IETF, bu= t I think we also need to include the iOAM people.

    This has scope to get very messy as we find new candidates for BoS metadata= so we really need to take a holistic position to ensure the future health = the MPLS protocol.

    - Stewart


    > On 12 Jan 2021, at 14:27, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote: >=C2=A0
    > Hi,
    >=C2=A0
    > I just posted=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzh= ang-intarea-generic-delivery-functions/.
    >=C2=A0
    > The initial version was posted to the tsvwg (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft= -zzhang-tsvwg-generic-transport-functions-00). After discussions/feedback we are re-homing it to intarea wg. This new ver= sion also contains quite some changes based on the comments and feedback th= at we received (special thanks to Stewart).
    >=C2=A0
    > Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
    >=C2=A0
    > Thanks.
    > Jeffrey
    >=C2=A0
    > Juniper Business Use Only

    _______________________________________________
    mpls mailing list
    mpls@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls<= /a>



    Juniper Business Use Only<= /span>

    =C2=A0


    Juniper Business Use Only

    --00000000000063d5d005bbf6729d-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 19:00:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7B73A24C1; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g83QJx3lOImp; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53DFD3A24A2; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Dl3WH4bnhz67q3Y; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:52:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2106.2; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:59:58 +0100 Received: from DGGEML422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.39) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:59:57 +0100 Received: from DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.50]) by dggeml422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:59:55 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: "apn@ietf.org" CC: "int-area@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Drafts updated Thread-Index: AdcJiot5DQ4rMbFdRTKr3nCUPHCpqwABRzXQ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 02:59:54 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19923B86@DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398F@DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1992398F@DGGEML532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.195.244] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19923B86DGGEML532MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Drafts updated X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 03:00:03 -0000 --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19923B86DGGEML532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, If you are also encountering the system issue, please access the following = links. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-apn-framework-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-= 03 Thank you! Best regards, Shuping From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pengshuping = (Peng Shuping) Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 10:22 AM To: apn@ietf.org Cc: int-area@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: [Int-area] Drafts updated Dear all, We have updated the following APN drafts. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-framework-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-03 Your reviews and comments are very welcomed. Thank you! Best regards, Shuping --_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19923B86DGGEML532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable