From rcallon@juniper.net Fri Nov 2 11:18:05 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F0B1F0C69 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:18:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ems7lnST3Mbg for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og115.obsmtp.com (exprod7og115.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.217]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CF81F0C60 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob115.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUJQOXEv0XrUTmnSxZiw1cpj0I6iQu6V0@postini.com; Fri, 02 Nov 2012 11:18:04 PDT Received: from P-CLDFE02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.60) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:16:09 -0700 Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:16:08 -0700 Received: from tx2outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (65.55.88.11) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:17:56 -0700 Received: from mail60-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.246) by TX2EHSOBE006.bigfish.com (10.9.40.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:16:08 +0000 Received: from mail60-tx2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail60-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EE43C00CD for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:16:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.244.213; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:CH1PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: 0 X-BigFish: PS0(z551bizc85fh4015Izz1de0h1202h1d1ah1d2ahzzz2dh2a8h668h839hd25hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h1504h1537h153bh34h1155h) Received: from mail60-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail60-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1351880166149925_17056; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS028.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.250]) by mail60-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157D2E008C for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.244.213) by TX2EHSMHS028.bigfish.com (10.9.99.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:16:00 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.7.203]) by CH1PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.150.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0233.002; Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:15:57 +0000 From: Ross Callon To: "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft IRS BOF Agenda Thread-Index: Ac25JhnbaH6xIfXsQ5q9ZE+vFQ2KQw== Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 18:15:57 +0000 Message-ID: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.232.2] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Subject: [irs-discuss] Draft IRS BOF Agenda X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:18:05 -0000 --_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_" --_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just updated a draft agenda for the IRS BOF to the WG chairs page. A copy= is attached (in text format). This is an update to what had been posted a = few days ago. Thanks, Ross --_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just updated a draft agenda for the IRS BOF to the WG chairs page. A= copy is attached (in text format). This is an update to what had been post= ed a few days ago.
 
Thanks, Ross
 
 
--_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_-- --_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="IRSagenda85 update1.txt" Content-Description: IRSagenda85 update1.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IRSagenda85 update1.txt"; size=841; creation-date="Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:09:32 GMT"; modification-date="Fri, 02 Nov 2012 17:50:33 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RHJhZnQgQWdlbmRhIGZvciB0aGUgSVJTIEJPRiBhdCBJRVRGIDg1DQpNb25kYXkgTm92ZW1iZXIg NSwgMjAxMg0KMTc0MC0xOTQwICBBZnRlcm5vb24gU2Vzc2lvbiBJSUksIFNhbG9uIEQNCg0KDQpB Z2VuZGEtYmFzaGluZyBhbmQgYWRtaW5pc3RyaXZpYSAoY2hhaXJzKSANCg0KU2NvcGUgYW5kIHB1 cnBvc2Ugb2YgQm9GIChBZHJpYW4gRmFycmVsKSANCg0KT3ZlcnZpZXcgb2YgUHJvYmxlbSBTdGF0 ZW1lbnQgYW5kIEZyYW1ld29yayAoU3VlIEhhcmVzKQ0KDQpPdmVydmlldyBvZiBVc2UgQ2FzZXMg YW5kIFJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyAoU2hhbmUgQW1hbnRlKQ0KDQpQb3RlbnRpYWwgQ2hhcnRlciAoUm9z cyBDYWxsb24pDQoNCk9idmlvdXMgUXVlc3Rpb25zIChEYXZlIFdhcmQpDQoNCkRpc2N1c3Npb24g KGFsbCkNCg0KU3VtbWFyeSBhbmQgQ2xvc3VyZSAoY2hhaXJzIGFuZCBBRCkNCg0KDQoNClJlbGF0 ZWQgSW50ZXJuZXQgRHJhZnRzOg0KDQpkcmFmdC1hbWFudGUtaXJzLXRvcG9sb2d5LXVzZS1jYXNl cy0wMA0KZHJhZnQtYXRsYXMtaXJzLXBvbGljeS1mcmFtZXdvcmstMDANCmRyYWZ0LWF0bGFzLWly cy1wcm9ibGVtLXN0YXRlbWVudC0wMA0KZHJhZnQtZGltaXRyaS1pcnMtYXJjaC1mcmFtZS0wMA0K ZHJhZnQtaGFyZXMtdXNlLWNhc2Utdm4tdmMtMDANCmRyYWZ0LWtleXVwYXRlLWlycy1iZ3AtdXNl Y2FzZXMtMDANCmRyYWZ0LW1lZHZlZC1pcnMtdG9wb2xvZ3ktcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzLTAwDQpkcmFm dC1yZmVybmFuZG8taXJzLWZyYW1ld29yay1yZXF1aXJlbWVudC0wMA0KZHJhZnQtd2FyZC1pcnMt ZnJhbWV3b3JrLTAwDQpkcmFmdC13aGl0ZS1pcnMtdXNlLWNhc2UtMDANCg== --_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD3024FB590CH1PRD0510MB355_-- From rcallon@juniper.net Sun Nov 4 10:40:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5C521F8475 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:40:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qLaWcmzuBgCq for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og114.obsmtp.com (exprod7og114.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.215]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFAC21F84C8 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob114.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUJa2n9LSITICFCaw/MdJxQeWZY32DHt4@postini.com; Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:40:32 PST Received: from P-CLDFE02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.60) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:40:23 -0800 Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:40:22 -0800 Received: from CO9EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (207.46.163.28) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:43:06 -0800 Received: from mail78-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.243) by CO9EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.236.130.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:22 +0000 Received: from mail78-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail78-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBDEA00A8 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.244.213; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:CH1PRD0510HT004.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -29 X-BigFish: PS-29(zz9371I103dK542Md799hzz1de0h1202h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2dh2a8h668h839h944hd25hf0ah1220h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh1155h) Received: from mail78-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail78-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 135205442136888_20942; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS002.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.253]) by mail78-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19802E0049; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0510HT004.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.244.213) by CO9EHSMHS002.bigfish.com (10.236.130.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:20 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.2.125]) by CH1PRD0510HT004.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.150.39]) with mapi id 14.16.0233.002; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:20 +0000 From: Ross Callon To: Russ White , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter Thread-Index: Ac2tSPIygvX3jYqNR5qAr0uNe7mBvADNLoCAAo9gxVA= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:40:19 +0000 Message-ID: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251A9F9@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <5085874F.1090806@riw.us> In-Reply-To: <5085874F.1090806@riw.us> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.232.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%RIW.US$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:40:33 -0000 Speaking only for myself as an individual:=20 I agree that this paragraph of the draft WG charter is a problem. For one t= hing the definition of "Slow Path" and "Fast Path" are not clear, and overl= ap with implementation issues as well as other issues.=20 One option would be to just drop this paragraph. To me the charter hangs to= gether fine without it.=20 One alternative: Do we want to say something along the lines of "whatever s= olutions are selected by the WG will not preclude "fast path" low-overhead = access to the routing system"? This would encourage the WG to think about w= hat is needed to allow low-overhead access to data in the routers (both set= ting and reading), but would not in the charter specify what actually needs= to be done to allow this.=20 Ross -----Original Message----- From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Russ White Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 1:50 PM To: irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter I think this has already been brought up on the list once before, but I'd just like to repeat my concerns on it: =3D=3D Thus, the IRS is a "fast path" that can be used to program routing and policy state in a router using operational paradigms familiar to operators of traditional distributed devices. This differs from the programmatic "slow state" that is commonly a device's configuration interface because those mechanisms impose many transactional mechanisms and requirements, that may slow down the interaction. =3D=3D Describing the CLI or other existing interfaces as the "slow path," and the proposed as the "fast path," is problematic. First, it implies that there is a specific path already available into all control plane devices, and that single path is "too slow," for some meaning of "too slow." Second, it implies, from the start, that we need new path, rather than a possible structure around existing paths that we can use to make sense of the routing system as a whole. I think 2a needs to be better defined so it doesn't overlap with 2c, or 2c needs to be made a part of 2a in some way (?). Thanks! Russ --=20 <>< riwhite@verisign.com russw@riw.us _______________________________________________ irs-discuss mailing list irs-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss From rcallon@juniper.net Sun Nov 4 10:43:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC4221F84CD for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:43:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.256 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.256 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.210, BAYES_00=-2.599, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_GIF_ATTACH=1.42, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bW4bJtvB+9WV for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og114.obsmtp.com (exprod7og114.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.215]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9D621F84C8 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob114.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUJa3SbM7Ed8ONorpu2h+hw0KFR+4hJsa@postini.com; Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:43:21 PST Received: from P-CLDFE01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.59) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:43:20 -0800 Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:43:19 -0800 Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (216.32.180.13) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:46:02 -0800 Received: from mail182-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.242) by VA3EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.7.40.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:17 +0000 Received: from mail182-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail182-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A3B200E5 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.244.213; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:CH1PRD0510HT001.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -23 X-BigFish: PS-23(zz9371Ic89bhc85dh1418I4015Izz1de0h1202h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2dh54h2a8h668h839hd25hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h1504h1537h153bh1155h) Received: from mail182-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail182-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1352054594813944_17459; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS014.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.240]) by mail182-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C237FA005F; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0510HT001.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.244.213) by VA3EHSMHS014.bigfish.com (10.7.99.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:14 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.2.125]) by CH1PRD0510HT001.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.150.36]) with mapi id 14.16.0233.002; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:13 +0000 From: Ross Callon To: Maglione Roberta , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Rough Draft IRS Charter Thread-Index: Ac2tSPIygvX3jYqNR5qAr0uNe7mBvAArX2tQAzFayuA= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:43:11 +0000 Message-ID: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE519702F264@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> In-Reply-To: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE519702F264@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.232.2] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%TELECOMITALIA.IT$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%CISCO.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Cc: "dward@cisco.com" , Capello Alessandro Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:43:32 -0000 --_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_" --_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The draft charter says "at least". Thus in my reading of this, the current = proposed text does not preclude other use cases. On the other hand, I think that initially, after the WG is chartered and st= arts operating as a WG (assuming that this happens), we need to be careful = to avoid trying to take on so much work that we don't succeed in finishing = any of it. Ross (speaking only as an interested individual, giving my personal opinion) From: Maglione Roberta [mailto:roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:43 AM To: Ross Callon; irs-discuss@ietf.org Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello Alessandro Subject: RE: Rough Draft IRS Charter Hello, I have a question on working item 2: "The working group is chartered to work on the following items: 2. Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of IRS. These use c= ases will include at least: a. Interactions with the RIB b. Association of routing policies with routing state c. The ability to extract information about topology from the network " Does this bullet exclude the possibility to use IRS to gather information a= bout network measurements such as available bandwidth on a link, informatio= n related to jitter delay for specific flows etc. ? Thanks, Roberta ________________________________ From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [ma= ilto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:55 PM To: irs-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Ross Callon; dward@cisco.com Subject: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter Attached (in Word format) is a very rough initial draft charter (for a pote= ntial IRS WG) that the BOF chairs have been discussing with our friendly sp= onsoring routing area AD. Comments are welcome. We will be discussing the draft IRS WG charter in Atl= anta. Thanks, Ross (with input from Dave and Adrian) Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. [rispetta l'ambiente]Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non = =E8 necessario. --_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The draft charter says &#= 8220;at least”. Thus in my reading of this, the current proposed text= does not preclude other use cases.

 <= /p>

On the other hand, I thin= k that initially, after the WG is chartered and starts operating as a WG (a= ssuming that this happens), we need to be careful to avoid trying to take on so much work that we don’t succeed in finishing an= y of it.

 <= /p>

Ross

(speaking only as an inte= rested individual, giving my personal opinion)

 <= /p>

From: Maglione= Roberta [mailto:roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:43 AM
To: Ross Callon; irs-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello Alessandro
Subject: RE: Rough Draft IRS Charter

 

Hello,

 I have a question on w= orking item 2:

 

“The working group is chartered t= o work on the following items:

 

2.     Tightly scoped key use ca= ses for operational use of IRS. These use cases will include at least:=

a.    Interactions with the RIB<= /o:p>

b.    Association of routing policies= with routing state

c.    The ability to extract informat= ion about topology from the network

Does this bullet exclude the= possibility to use IRS to gather information about network measurements su= ch as available bandwidth on a link, information related to jitter delay for specific flows etc. ?

 

Thanks,

Roberta

 

Attached (in Word format) is a very rou= gh initial draft charter (for a potential IRS WG) that the BOF chairs have = been discussing with our friendly sponsoring routing area AD.

 

Comments are welcome. We will be discus= sing the draft IRS WG charter in Atlanta.

 

Thanks, Ross

(with input from Dave and Adrian)<= /o:p>

 

 

 

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indiriz= zati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni= sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per = errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mitte= nte e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments=  = is confidential and may contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only.= Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. I= f you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and any at= tachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks.

3D"rispettaRispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario.

 

--_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_-- --_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Description: image001.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.gif"; size=677; creation-date="Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:43:10 GMT"; modification-date="Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:43:10 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhGgAoANU5AEiFNnikNyRvNcvYOafCOEOEW3DO3jB2NqjGs9ny9o+zOIOrN+L1+G+ggbzo 8GCUN1SNNv///zx+NrPJOL/ROYPV44zY5YuzmrfQwCZxQlKNaMXZzOfy8NTi2TV6TuLs5vX8/ez5 +4yzmtTj2cXr8mCXdKni62ycN5/f6aDf6X2qjrPl7rLl7Zu6OJbb53nS4PH188bs8sXZzfH18pq9 p0SDWxhnNWbL3NfgOf///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEAADkALAAAAAAaACgAAAb/wJxw SBQ6WMWkMmm6kZbQ5OvmjFoT1JuBYYWmsrcXqJvEgm8WctFypnI66pyjfXMhCmqGgR4r2S5dIBV0 FjI2h3BRX20VHAUCEjZ4UHNtFo42BA+HCEskbQYOIwU2CjgBNgAZM0kMbSYcIjYCBDg4LTYLf0V6 YCghNBk2DwO2OASZqkS9VBYMCB6pE8bGucidOYJUoaOptdQTFDg2ATgHGkIs2wyyAqbUtgICCwfl uh8ge1sNNhDF8LYiHYKAg4INBJUS8FsAEF6AA6lsHWjg4gYKDDZONGwIAIAtCAX2hPAgYSNHj6ds 3KiA8V3DAQGm2epoS4HKFQ0EmMRhc97Mwge2kN1IoIGgyQECD5wQUO6YygTkdtpCdSgqDl0VoDaV OmDBpm+oTCQoABQgBZfGbIrDAUBDAgcNDnDs98/WA504Buxa0RKgzVkB/h0oi+pDjgQhHtU1RgDi oY6l8gpAJyTBCBsSFtuC6XjWTBuJhIRAgFkmwAmoAkM4mCQCBmEB1sIDIKAFRGytYfDrt4CAuAkn qnrYYCXCBxGkqlYtgbtLhOcbMNSw0SBOEmg2VFj/sGHDhRLCNBC3fqFqARWhowQBADs= --_004_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11CH1PRD0510MB355_-- From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Sun Nov 4 10:53:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED2721F8473 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:53:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id do7Qvnvel5vN for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8824C21F846D for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.79.162.178] (mobile-198-228-204-137.mycingular.net [198.228.204.137]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA67E230C628; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 13:53:17 -0500 (EST) References: <5085874F.1090806@riw.us> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251A9F9@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251A9F9@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A523) From: Thomas Nadeau Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 13:53:13 -0500 To: Ross Callon Cc: Russ White , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:53:20 -0000 On Nov 4, 2012, at 1:40 PM, Ross Callon wrote: > Speaking only for myself as an individual:=20 >=20 > I agree that this paragraph of the draft WG charter is a problem. For one t= hing the definition of "Slow Path" and "Fast Path" are not clear, and overla= p with implementation issues as well as other issues.=20 >=20 > One option would be to just drop this paragraph. To me the charter hangs t= ogether fine without it.=20 I personally do not find it offensive, but if it clears things up, let's loo= se it. >=20 > One alternative: Do we want to say something along the lines of "whatever s= olutions are selected by the WG will not preclude "fast path" low-overhead a= ccess to the routing system"? This would encourage the WG to think about wha= t is needed to allow low-overhead access to data in the routers (both settin= g and reading), but would not in the charter specify what actually needs to b= e done to allow this.=20 I don't like the language of "will not preclude". it's a bit of a double ne= gative to me. something like "will seek to reuse or develop a protocol that a= chieves the requirements of low-overhead, etc... seems more flexible and pr= ecise to me at the same time. Tom=20 >=20 > Ross >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Russ White > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 1:50 PM > To: irs-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter >=20 >=20 > I think this has already been brought up on the list once before, but > I'd just like to repeat my concerns on it: >=20 > =3D=3D > Thus, the IRS is a "fast path" that can be used to program routing and > policy state in a router using operational paradigms familiar to > operators of traditional distributed devices. This differs from the > programmatic "slow state" that is commonly a device's configuration > interface because those mechanisms impose many transactional mechanisms > and requirements, that may slow down the interaction. > =3D=3D >=20 > Describing the CLI or other existing interfaces as the "slow path," and > the proposed as the "fast path," is problematic. First, it implies that > there is a specific path already available into all control plane > devices, and that single path is "too slow," for some meaning of "too > slow." Second, it implies, from the start, that we need new path, rather > than a possible structure around existing paths that we can use to make > sense of the routing system as a whole. >=20 > I think 2a needs to be better defined so it doesn't overlap with 2c, or > 2c needs to be made a part of 2a in some way (?). >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > <>< > riwhite@verisign.com > russw@riw.us > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >=20 From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Sun Nov 4 10:55:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF53C21F85DF for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:55:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WbkvSv9W+CzX for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6822321F8604 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.79.162.178] (mobile-198-228-204-137.mycingular.net [198.228.204.137]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2FA1230C63F; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 13:54:43 -0500 (EST) References: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE519702F264@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BC0EA3DD-255D-45B0-9DD2-906024C35A63 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <69B5AE7C-5F7F-4E17-A6BC-28BD3E01A7C3@lucidvision.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A523) From: Thomas Nadeau Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 13:54:39 -0500 To: Ross Callon Cc: Capello Alessandro , Maglione Roberta , "dward@cisco.com" , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:55:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail-BC0EA3DD-255D-45B0-9DD2-906024C35A63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Nov 4, 2012, at 1:43 PM, Ross Callon wrote: > The draft charter says =E2=80=9Cat least=E2=80=9D. Thus in my reading of t= his, the current proposed text does not preclude other use cases. agreed. I think that was the spirit of hat was proposed. > =20 > On the other hand, I think that initially, after the WG is chartered and s= tarts operating as a WG (assuming that this happens), we need to be careful t= o avoid trying to take on so much work that we don=E2=80=99t succeed in fini= shing any of it. agreed. Tom=20 > =20 > Ross > (speaking only as an interested individual, giving my personal opinion) > =20 > From: Maglione Roberta [mailto:roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it]=20 > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:43 AM > To: Ross Callon; irs-discuss@ietf.org > Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello Alessandro > Subject: RE: Rough Draft IRS Charter > =20 > Hello, > I have a question on working item 2: > =20 > =E2=80=9CThe working group is chartered to work on the following items: > =20 > 2. Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of IRS. These use c= ases will include at least: > a. Interactions with the RIB > b. Association of routing policies with routing state > c. The ability to extract information about topology from the network > =E2=80=9C > Does this bullet exclude the possibility to use IRS to gather information a= bout network measurements such as available bandwidth on a link, information= related to jitter delay for specific flows etc. ? > =20 > Thanks, > Roberta > From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Ross Callon > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:55 PM > To: irs-discuss@ietf.org > Cc: Ross Callon; dward@cisco.com > Subject: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter > =20 > Attached (in Word format) is a very rough initial draft charter (for a pot= ential IRS WG) that the BOF chairs have been discussing with our friendly sp= onsoring routing area AD. > =20 > Comments are welcome. We will be discussing the draft IRS WG charter in At= lanta. > =20 > Thanks, Ross > (with input from Dave and Adrian) > =20 > =20 > =20 > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pe= rsone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbi= ate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. > This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged= information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended re= cipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sende= r by return e-mail, Thanks. >=20 > Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 n= ecessario. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss --Apple-Mail-BC0EA3DD-255D-45B0-9DD2-906024C35A63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The draft charter says =E2=80= =9Cat least=E2=80=9D. Thus in my reading of this, the current proposed text d= oes not preclude other use cases.


agreed. I think that= was the spirit of hat was proposed.

 

On the other hand, I think t= hat initially, after the WG is chartered and starts operating as a WG (assum= ing that this happens), we need to be careful to avoid trying to take on so much work that we don=E2=80=99t succeed in finishing a= ny of it.


agreed.

Tom 

 

Ross

(speaking only as an intere= sted individual, giving my personal opinion)

 

From: Maglione Ro= berta [mailto:roberta.m= aglione@telecomitalia.it]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:43 AM
To: Ross Callon; irs-discuss@= ietf.org
Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello A= lessandro
Subject: RE: Rough Draft IRS Charter

 

Hello,

 I have a question on wor= king item 2:

 

=E2=80=9CThe working group is chartered t= o work on the following items:

 

2.<= span style=3D"font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">     Tightly scoped key use c= ases for operational use of IRS. These use cases will include at least:=

a.    Interactions with the RIB

b.    Association of routing polici= es with routing state

c.    The ability to extract inform= ation about topology from the network

=E2=80=9C

Does this bullet exclude the p= ossibility to use IRS to gather information about network measurements such a= s available bandwidth on a link, information related to jitter delay for specific flows etc. ?

 

Thanks,

Roberta


From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org= [mailto:irs-discuss-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:55 PM
To: irs-discuss@ietf.org<= br> Cc: Ross Callon; dward@cisco.com
Subject: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter

 

Attached (in Word format) is a very rough= initial draft charter (for a potential IRS WG) that the BOF chairs have bee= n discussing with our friendly sponsoring routing area AD.

 

Comments are welcome. We will be discussi= ng the draft IRS WG charter in Atlanta.

 

Thanks, Ross

(with input from Dave and Adrian)

 

 

 

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzat= i esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni s= ono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per err= ore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e= di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is&nb= sp;confidential and may contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. D= issemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If y= ou are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attach= ments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks.

 

= --Apple-Mail-BC0EA3DD-255D-45B0-9DD2-906024C35A63-- From christopher.liljenstolpe@bigswitch.com Sun Nov 4 20:16:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264F921F89F9 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:16:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FGWuYVwchqg for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ye0-f172.google.com (mail-ye0-f172.google.com [209.85.213.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FA921F89F2 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ye0-f172.google.com with SMTP id l13so972226yen.31 for ; Sun, 04 Nov 2012 20:16:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date :to:mime-version:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=X0aDnilvayjLCh9Nbl9hTNYOb9rf2J4rRUJCMWUZp24=; b=CAnAfrwM16XwR8tfmYC36Ze6kIEgzz6lEWL6biMG/xE2sxQ0Z6rQzs8hNt8uWY/D8A lavWniF2E7qX41fREqGp78ywNxfdXCSlQYiRsoXL18bYFZXBCI/aOQ68srCBMBnJ4dJY vYIQrVEknbj5NgOL04dwPbX8kF97zTnLyJs7sF+Ftnm9L0WqqxXvfH6qpZlj2W3bYrb6 zowGohYe39SR8qOVFcxhhamHWdgfhXpB1wc6jdKWxiLG9YoT+A24iFwXxI11veoq/Fzj NgsRWzGHAI6dg23uDqbpGGZTSeMmOo0xVi2wHIrNBN8nI2+qtx0/uyn/7oweg/8L29zS hRtg== Received: by 10.236.71.33 with SMTP id q21mr8033452yhd.60.1352088992171; Sun, 04 Nov 2012 20:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.179] (50-79-130-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.79.130.217]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g2sm16662740yhj.9.2012.11.04.20.16.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 04 Nov 2012 20:16:31 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Liljenstolpe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4A7A7908-F3C8-4D94-B9A2-FE8A82590490@bigswitch.com> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:16:29 -0800 To: irs-discuss@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk1hyz0TcVEu9TIf0fu7dUR+Kt4wdZwgjZLUkgVsz4mirw1QxCvKJrDJRpG1Z9MicS3DLe2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 04:52:48 -0800 Subject: [irs-discuss] Comment about the draft charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 04:16:33 -0000 Greetings all, Overall I like the charter. I do have one suggestion: I think we should (in point (2)) subject other proposed use-cases to a = test against existing solutions (at least within the IETF if not ex-IETF = as well) to insure we don't chase a use-case that turns out to duplicate = existing work somewhere else. =09 That's about it that I would change Christopher From adrian@olddog.co.uk Mon Nov 5 05:21:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC0721F8514 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.64 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.64 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_GIF_ATTACH=1.42] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2ZADG+pSk2J for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 05:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84DA21F84D1 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 05:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qA5DLRVk011456; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:21:27 GMT Received: from 950129200 (dhcp-13b5.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.19.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qA5DLOax011401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:21:26 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Ross Callon'" , "'Maglione Roberta'" , References: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE519702F264@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 13:21:25 -0000 Message-ID: <00d901cdbb58$76572070$63056150$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DA_01CDBB58.765E4C60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIileaCQ9T6CSvo9QqWZnci+1k/xwHdf39+Ahbp7DmXEd/yAA== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: dward@cisco.com, 'Capello Alessandro' Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 13:21:40 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01CDBB58.765E4C60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00DB_01CDBB58.765E4C60" ------=_NextPart_001_00DB_01CDBB58.765E4C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The intention of the draft charter is to seed the list of use cases. The charter that you all put forward to the IESG (if you have consensus = to form a WG) needs to have an agreed list of use cases that the WG will work = on. =20 IMHO, this needs to be a closed list for initial work, with a way to add = further use cases if needed. I also think that the list in the charter needs to = be a fairly short list, and that will require the group to determine where = its wants to focus. =20 A =20 From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Ross Callon Sent: 04 November 2012 18:43 To: Maglione Roberta; irs-discuss@ietf.org Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello Alessandro Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter =20 The draft charter says =93at least=94. Thus in my reading of this, the = current proposed text does not preclude other use cases.=20 =20 On the other hand, I think that initially, after the WG is chartered and = starts operating as a WG (assuming that this happens), we need to be careful to = avoid trying to take on so much work that we don=92t succeed in finishing any = of it.=20 =20 Ross (speaking only as an interested individual, giving my personal opinion) =20 From: Maglione Roberta [mailto:roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it]=20 Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:43 AM To: Ross Callon; irs-discuss@ietf.org Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello Alessandro Subject: RE: Rough Draft IRS Charter =20 Hello,=20 I have a question on working item 2: =20 =93The working group is chartered to work on the following items: =20 2. Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of IRS. These = use cases will include at least: a. Interactions with the RIB b. Association of routing policies with routing state c. The ability to extract information about topology from the = network =93 Does this bullet exclude the possibility to use IRS to gather = information about network measurements such as available bandwidth on a link, information = related to jitter delay for specific flows etc. ? =20 Thanks, Roberta=20 _____ =20 From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Ross Callon Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:55 PM To: irs-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Ross Callon; dward@cisco.com Subject: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter =20 Attached (in Word format) is a very rough initial draft charter (for a = potential IRS WG) that the BOF chairs have been discussing with our friendly = sponsoring routing area AD.=20 =20 Comments are welcome. We will be discussing the draft IRS WG charter in = Atlanta. =20 Thanks, Ross (with input from Dave and Adrian) =20 =20 =20 Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle = persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora = abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua = distruzione, Grazie.=20 This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain = privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended = recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by = return e-mail, Thanks.=20 rispetta l'ambienteRispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non = =E8 necessario.=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_00DB_01CDBB58.765E4C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The intention of the draft = charter is to seed the list of use cases.

The charter that you all put = forward to the IESG (if you have consensus to form a WG) needs to have = an agreed list of use cases that the WG will work = on.

 

IMHO, this needs to be a = closed list for initial work, with a way to add further use cases if = needed. I also think that the list in the charter needs to be a fairly = short list, and that will require the group to determine where its wants = to focus.

 

A

 

From: = irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Ross Callon
Sent: 04 November 2012 = 18:43
To: Maglione Roberta; irs-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: = dward@cisco.com; Capello Alessandro
Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] = Rough Draft IRS Charter

 

The draft charter says “at = least”. Thus in my reading of this, the current proposed text does = not preclude other use cases.

 

On the other hand, I think that initially, = after the WG is chartered and starts operating as a WG (assuming that = this happens), we need to be careful to avoid trying to take on so much = work that we don’t succeed in finishing any of it.

 

Ross

(speaking only as an interested individual, = giving my personal opinion)

 

From: Maglione Roberta [mailto:roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it] =
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:43 AM
To: Ross = Callon; irs-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: dward@cisco.com; Capello = Alessandro
Subject: RE: Rough Draft IRS Charter

 

Hello,

 I have a question on working item = 2:

 

“The working group is chartered to work on the = following items:

 

2.      =  Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of = IRS. These use cases will include at least:

a.       = Interactions with the RIB

b.      = Association of routing policies with routing = state

c.       = The ability to extract information about topology from the = network

Does this bullet exclude the possibility to use = IRS to gather information about network measurements such as available = bandwidth on a link, information related to jitter delay for specific = flows etc. ?

 

Thanks,

Roberta


From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org= [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
Sent: Thursday, = October 18, 2012 5:55 PM
To: irs-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: Ross Callon; dward@cisco.com
Subject: = [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter

 

Attached (in Word format) is a very rough initial draft = charter (for a potential IRS WG) that the BOF chairs have been = discussing with our friendly sponsoring routing area AD.

 

Comments are welcome. We will be discussing the draft IRS = WG charter in Atlanta.

 

Thanks, Ross

(with input from Dave and Adrian)

 

 

 

= Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle = persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione = derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente = vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete = cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di = provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie. =

= This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may = contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. = Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. = If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and = any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, = Thanks.=

= 3D"rispettaRispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 = necessario.=

 

------=_NextPart_001_00DB_01CDBB58.765E4C60-- ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01CDBB58.765E4C60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhGgAoANU5AEiFNnikNyRvNcvYOafCOEOEW3DO3jB2NqjGs9ny9o+zOIOrN+L1+G+ggbzo 8GCUN1SNNv///zx+NrPJOL/ROYPV44zY5YuzmrfQwCZxQlKNaMXZzOfy8NTi2TV6TuLs5vX8/ez5 +4yzmtTj2cXr8mCXdKni62ycN5/f6aDf6X2qjrPl7rLl7Zu6OJbb53nS4PH188bs8sXZzfH18pq9 p0SDWxhnNWbL3NfgOf///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEAADkALAAAAAAaACgAAAb/wJxw SBQ6WMWkMmm6kZbQ5OvmjFoT1JuBYYWmsrcXqJvEgm8WctFypnI66pyjfXMhCmqGgR4r2S5dIBV0 FjI2h3BRX20VHAUCEjZ4UHNtFo42BA+HCEskbQYOIwU2CjgBNgAZM0kMbSYcIjYCBDg4LTYLf0V6 YCghNBk2DwO2OASZqkS9VBYMCB6pE8bGucidOYJUoaOptdQTFDg2ATgHGkIs2wyyAqbUtgICCwfl uh8ge1sNNhDF8LYiHYKAg4INBJUS8FsAEF6AA6lsHWjg4gYKDDZONGwIAIAtCAX2hPAgYSNHj6ds 3KiA8V3DAQGm2epoS4HKFQ0EmMRhc97Mwge2kN1IoIGgyQECD5wQUO6YygTkdtpCdSgqDl0VoDaV OmDBpm+oTCQoABQgBZfGbIrDAUBDAgcNDnDs98/WA504Buxa0RKgzVkB/h0oi+pDjgQhHtU1RgDi oY6l8gpAJyTBCBsSFtuC6XjWTBuJhIRAgFkmwAmoAkM4mCQCBmEB1sIDIKAFRGytYfDrt4CAuAkn qnrYYCXCBxGkqlYtgbtLhOcbMNSw0SBOEmg2VFj/sGHDhRLCNBC3fqFqARWhowQBADs= ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01CDBB58.765E4C60-- From rcallon@juniper.net Mon Nov 5 11:36:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD3C21F8673 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.293 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.293 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.173, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKPXxEbKhQQU for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og110.obsmtp.com (exprod7og110.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39AE21F85AD for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob110.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUJgVEurj5nrkiwChvnBEGaOgqZnCxaif@postini.com; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:35:47 PST Received: from P-CLDFE02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.60) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:35:00 -0800 Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:34:59 -0800 Received: from co1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (216.32.180.184) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:37:37 -0800 Received: from mail51-co1-R.bigfish.com (10.243.78.246) by CO1EHSOBE009.bigfish.com (10.243.66.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:56 +0000 Received: from mail51-co1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail51-co1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94434A801A5 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.244.213; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:CH1PRD0510HT002.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -1 X-BigFish: PS-1(zzc85fh4015Izz1de0h1202h1d1ah1d2ahzzz2dh2a8h668h839hd25hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h1504h1537h153bh1155h) Received: from mail51-co1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail51-co1 (MessageSwitch) id 1352144094662511_5791; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO1EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (unknown [10.243.78.248]) by mail51-co1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8ADC80044; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0510HT002.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.244.213) by CO1EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (10.243.66.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:53 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.2.125]) by CH1PRD0510HT002.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.150.37]) with mapi id 14.16.0233.002; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:52 +0000 From: Ross Callon To: "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Volunteer needed as Jabber Scribe Thread-Index: Ac27jJ9SlKaCcH6NQoiI57o0xUHPuw== Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:34:51 +0000 Message-ID: <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251F479@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.232.2] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251F479CH1PRD0510MB355_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%CISCO.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Cc: Ross Callon , "dward@cisco.com" Subject: [irs-discuss] Volunteer needed as Jabber Scribe X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:36:18 -0000 --_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251F479CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We would like a volunteer to be jabber scribe for this afternoon's IRS BOF.= Please let the chairs know if you are willing and able to do this. Thanks, Ross --_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251F479CH1PRD0510MB355_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We would like a volunteer to be jabber scribe for this afternoon’= ;s IRS BOF. Please let the chairs know if you are willing and able to do th= is.
 
Thanks, Ross
 
--_000_62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251F479CH1PRD0510MB355_-- From liljenstolpe@gmail.com Mon Nov 5 11:43:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7312521F8448 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5KLNvl35D0cO for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-da0-f44.google.com (mail-da0-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0526821F881F for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-da0-f44.google.com with SMTP id h15so2813137dan.31 for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:43:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=BcwIypqyGnMKu5Zj4XjiLQz6VKwp5EEjAvwRks1g+bg=; b=eqK2Y5O3sCiMVGqn2GATUjt32kw31nuf6EjX4x6gopIDO4VKYdqBuTI4Bn7xx8xpIv vwJD9VwLkhXn8B0bpwzF+lL6mI/KDvAgP9xxniV2wJyP40Htwzc167kyc7jtFCVuI5gl GyWPr5j52qD6OyETStZPu75tbpbejZRqCjJMt6SSMHKECrFWA8ugUg3oaUXdpcMCF6RI InpR2yo8jfIZpyLhLS07XHgARulUfFuqSg646cfOYPv+uxj6XT0i+gegrcbzyYzbP+V3 xZ6DqeRnMeFHLBIAfxDxOZyuY1dbvpM6z7Xjpid1F4nA9DTHrrNEZR+oAm1H+kyc0qeB 48nQ== Received: by 10.68.224.9 with SMTP id qy9mr33166799pbc.3.1352144591828; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-6450.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-6450.meeting.ietf.org. [130.129.100.80]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id se4sm11005290pbb.13.2012.11.05.11.43.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:43:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Christopher LILJENSTOLPE In-Reply-To: <00d901cdbb58$76572070$63056150$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:43:08 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5EEE5819-2A40-4FE7-AA39-D93F78E12B2A@gmail.com> References: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE519702F264@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD30251AA11@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <00d901cdbb58$76572070$63056150$@olddog.co.uk> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: 'Ross Callon' , 'Capello Alessandro' , 'Maglione Roberta' , dward@cisco.com, irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Rough Draft IRS Charter X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:43:17 -0000 Greetings all, On 05Nov2012, at 05.21, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > =20 > Hello, > I have a question on working item 2: > =20 > =93The working group is chartered to work on the following items: > =20 > 2. Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of IRS. = These use cases will include at least: > a. Interactions with the RIB > b. Association of routing policies with routing state > c. The ability to extract information about topology from the = network > =93 > Does this bullet exclude the possibility to use IRS to gather = information about network measurements such as available bandwidth on a = link, information related to jitter delay for specific flows etc. ? However, I would want to test those use cases against existing = capabilities BEFORE adding more use cases. I'm not sure I'm in favor of = replicating work and capabilities already done elsewhere (i.e. bandwidth = available on a link, etc). Chris From shares@ndzh.com Mon Nov 5 14:40:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBE221F8480 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.705 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.705 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.599, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iFYDap99Az4b for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (unknown [64.9.205.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B21621F8461 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=130.129.80.203; Received: from SKH2012HPLT (unverified [130.129.80.203]) by hickoryhill-consulting.com (SurgeMail 5.2a) with ESMTP id 63177-1945496 for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 17:40:23 -0500 From: "Susan Hares" To: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:40:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000801cdbba6$8b0e2e20$a12a8a60$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01CDBB7C.A2393790" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac27poofwRTns8joSQ2kcJc64Z0kCw== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Subject: [irs-discuss] Etherpad notes for the IRS BOF X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 22:40:25 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01CDBB7C.A2393790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://piratepad.net/AnZKlitP8F ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01CDBB7C.A2393790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://piratepad.net/AnZKlitP8F

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01CDBB7C.A2393790-- From shares@ndzh.com Mon Nov 5 15:31:49 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC9A21F872E for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.606 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3OkcBi59G9OI for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (unknown [64.9.205.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5F021F8720 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=130.129.80.203; Received: from SKH2012HPLT (unverified [130.129.80.203]) by hickoryhill-consulting.com (SurgeMail 5.2a) with ESMTP id 63270-1945496 for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 18:31:48 -0500 From: "Susan Hares" To: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:31:48 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01cdbbad$ba066510$2e132f30$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01CDBB83.D130F950" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac27rTiKKrq36e5ATz2N7DXSu3wJKw== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Subject: [irs-discuss] etherpad crashed X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 23:31:50 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CDBB83.D130F950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://piratepad.net/3s3TVEW7vP 2ndary etherpad where I willduplicate notes. Sue ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CDBB83.D130F950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CDBB83.D130F950-- From shares@ndzh.com Mon Nov 5 15:57:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D742621F879C for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:57:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.534 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.428, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pk2XiTncJn8g for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (unknown [64.9.205.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C71C21F85CB for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:57:43 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=130.129.80.203; Received: from SKH2012HPLT (unverified [130.129.80.203]) by hickoryhill-consulting.com (SurgeMail 5.2a) with ESMTP id 63319-1945496 for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 18:57:42 -0500 From: "Susan Hares" To: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 18:57:42 -0500 Message-ID: <003101cdbbb1$582ef3d0$088cdb70$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01CDBB87.6F5A7270" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac27sVQs/ZgJ+IdHTmu/bP3cMXM7eg== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Subject: [irs-discuss] etherpad spot to watch notes. . X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 23:57:44 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01CDBB87.6F5A7270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://piratepad.net/AnZKlitP8F per questions Sue (etherpad scribe) ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01CDBB87.6F5A7270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01CDBB87.6F5A7270-- From shares@ndzh.com Mon Nov 5 16:30:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729801F0C70 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:30:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.099 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eXYiTK0rX+wY for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (unknown [64.9.205.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4804121F8462 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2012 16:30:01 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=130.129.80.203; Received: from SKH2012HPLT (unverified [130.129.80.203]) by hickoryhill-consulting.com (SurgeMail 5.2a) with ESMTP id 63384-1945496 for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:30:00 -0500 From: "Susan Hares" To: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 19:30:00 -0500 Message-ID: <004401cdbbb5$db301ad0$91905070$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac27tdrX64kNZ19tQKivyFbZhnclGA== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Subject: [irs-discuss] IRS notes from the etherpad scribe X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 00:30:13 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0046_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0046_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's the notes I took. Sue ------=_NextPart_001_0046_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here’s the notes I took.

 

Sue =

------=_NextPart_001_0046_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CDBB8B.F25A12D0 Content-Type: text/html; name="irs-etherpath-scribe-non-official-nov-5-2012.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="irs-etherpath-scribe-non-official-nov-5-2012.html" =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= /AnZKlitP8F=0A= =0A= Welcome to PiratePad!raft Agenda for the IRS BOF at IETF 85Monday November 5, 20121740-1940  Afternoon Session III, Salon D
--f46d043c7b14fa889004ce554c52-- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:20:15 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB75221F852A for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:20:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gyforqJs6SQd for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2560821F8488 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAD0KBt1011813 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:20:11 GMT Received: from 950129200 ([31.121.158.242]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAD0K7bo011796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:20:10 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:20:10 -0000 Message-ID: <02ba01cdc134$a64c2280$f2e46780$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02BB_01CDC134.A6534E70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3BNJrji9SsoW0QSdiZXmZZ5/MOvQ== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [irs-discuss] Enough already [Was: What's in a name?] X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:20:15 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02BB_01CDC134.A6534E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't pretend I didn't know what was going to happen. I knew you would all ignore my request for moderation. I am swayed by the Google results (although I suspect Ed could fix it for us). I hear the claim that we should name the work to allow future ocean boiling and will *not* be swayed by it. Given that an early name change is desirable, I will work with the Secretariat to change the name to I2RS and let you know when it happens. Thanks, Adrian ------=_NextPart_000_02BB_01CDC134.A6534E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I can't pretend I didn't know = what was going to happen. I knew you would all ignore my request for = moderation.

 

I am swayed by the Google = results (although I suspect Ed could fix it for = us).

I hear the claim that we = should name the work to allow future ocean boiling and will *not* be = swayed by it.

 

Given that an early name = change is desirable, I will work with the Secretariat to change the name = to I2RS and let you know when it happens.

 

Thanks,

Adrian

------=_NextPart_000_02BB_01CDC134.A6534E70-- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:23:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA4921F852A; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:23:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NUdv9UlRxv3B; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76ACA21F8488; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAD0N6D1012317; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:23:07 GMT Received: from 950129200 ([31.121.158.242]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAD0N4E3012311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:23:06 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:23:06 -0000 Message-ID: <02cb01cdc135$0f4b6840$2de238c0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3BNQjX9bYbOQ9hT8a4RpVfGsz5zA== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [irs-discuss] Change name of a mailing list X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:23:10 -0000 Hi Secretariat, Can you help us migrate a mailing list? We currently have irs-discuss@ietf.org. Can you migrate it to i2rs@ietf.org ? We would like: - all subscribers to be migrated - all archives to be migrated if possible - new posts to irs-discuss to be bounced with a message saying list closed, please post to i2rs - new subscription requests to be refused Many thanks, Adrian From rogaglia@cisco.com Mon Nov 12 17:05:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABE521F87D0; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 17:05:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.024 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.024 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qNRvH0tBVcXv; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 17:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD4F21F87AA; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 17:05:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2264; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1352768753; x=1353978353; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=HkwAKXCdEoAeXSDIC08H3iYG32DvoKhELVWh1g/zZw8=; b=jlgCcN4UgSYpTHLhhKRCdF4M5NboeRA1hjNnmjIK1eiFVwrx8Q7KRR5b 9jNxyv9xHsmbWtqpHcw58SmnUwkvs6vNYJG4wsUxNs8xdj5wfI4HEplyj PIxP8ZTNkjkVMYK+8GIRLqAR7YZMitx0uWeSMT4O2Qjookf4lBO3rhFcf Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EADOboVCtJXG+/2dsb2JhbABEw2OBCIIeAQEBAwEBAQEPAScuBgsFBwQCAQgRAwECAQoUECcLHQgCBA4FCAEZh2IGC5l4j2WQLowVhWlhA6RUgWuCb4IZ X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6894"; a="141532572" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2012 01:05:52 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com [173.37.183.75]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qAD15qWe005887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Nov 2012 01:05:52 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.4.241]) by xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com ([173.37.183.75]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:05:51 -0600 From: "Roque Gagliano (rogaglia)" To: "" Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? Thread-Index: Ac3A5PsIVqU8XiJmRGOy8kKrHtrEtQAAkBWdAA3ho4AAANLZAAAAfEcAAAHE2YAAAEW8gAAAyGwAAAATEwAAARqtgAAOU58A Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 01:05:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <015701cdc0e4$fbc439f0$f34cadd0$@olddog.co.uk> <2835D71F-AEAE-49B3-8805-99F129C3F168@juniper.net> <50A11923.4040004@cisco.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D4482FBF5@dfweml505-mbx> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD302525617@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <50A12F9F.2040803@gmail.com> <50A134E0.4090701@queuefull.net> <384438043-1352744136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1255086084-@b15.c23.bise6.blackberry> In-Reply-To: <384438043-1352744136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1255086084-@b15.c23.bise6.blackberry> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.48.127] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-10.2.0.1135-7.000.1014-19356.005 x-tm-as-result: No--35.904700-8.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: No x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <30B61B3FB5EF44429E21B450660C7549@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , "" , Russell Harrison Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 01:05:53 -0000 -1 on ITRs. Bad timing also to chose that name as the ITU is discussing ITRs in next WC= IT conference. More info here: http://www.internetsociety.org/itr Roque On Nov 12, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Daniel Awduche wrote: > I concur. ITRS and I2RS are both good alternatives to IRS.=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Daniel O. Awduche > Sent from my Mobile >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Russell Harrison > Sender: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:44:00=20 > To: > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? >=20 > I don't think the name matters too much - but anything other than IRS > would have a positive influence on the signal to noise ratio of search > results. >=20 > -RH >=20 > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Benson Schliesser > wrote: >> I don't have a strong opinion about using the name "IRS". On one hand, I >> doubt it matters much; given a little context I don't expect anybody wil= l be >> confused about what it is. On the other hand, a different name might hel= p >> with web searches, avoid misunderstandings, etc. >>=20 >> So, if the ADs aren't bothered by the name IRS then I propose we keep it= and >> move forward with technical discussion. Alternatively, if the ADs would >> prefer a different name then I propose something like Routing Influence >> System (RIS) [*], or indeed any of the suggestions made this morning. Th= e >> only thing that's important is to make the choice quickly, to keep focus= on >> technical discussion instead. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> -Benson >>=20 >> * ...because Routing Influence Protocol (RIP) seemed like another flavor= of >> the same problem... >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> irs-discuss mailing list >> irs-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >=20 > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss From IHussain@infinera.com Mon Nov 12 18:04:48 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7774321F882E; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:04:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DDG9zo71a0S7; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sv-casht-prod1.infinera.com (sv-casht-prod1.infinera.com [8.4.225.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFED21F8827; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from SV-EXDB-PROD2.infinera.com ([fe80::1d05:1822:aaea:ff52]) by sv-casht-prod1.infinera.com ([10.100.97.218]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:04:46 -0800 From: Iftekhar Hussain To: "irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? Thread-Index: AQHNwQ/Q/2VTo5TcsUyBpp64GZARfpfnAvNQ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 02:04:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <015701cdc0e4$fbc439f0$f34cadd0$@olddog.co.uk> <2835D71F-AEAE-49B3-8805-99F129C3F168@juniper.net> <50A11923.4040004@cisco.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D4482FBF5@dfweml505-mbx> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD302525617@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <50A12F9F.2040803@gmail.com> <50A134E0.4090701@queuefull.net> <384438043-1352744136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1255086084-@b15.c23.bise6.blackberry> In-Reply-To: <384438043-1352744136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1255086084-@b15.c23.bise6.blackberry> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.100.96.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 02:04:48 -0000 Both I2RS and ITRS seem okay. Regards, Iftekhar From senad.ietf@gmail.com Mon Nov 12 18:08:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DC521F87BF for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:08:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bvY2LXQ479WS for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f44.google.com (mail-pa0-f44.google.com [209.85.220.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C1621F880A for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id fb11so4888426pad.31 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=Wf54lnOn7ZZ7MJ33Cyf4KRqWOr2AZ3bi36udYeG8UQs=; b=JkmFED1cdNKlcwwRpByMU4ZSzWPcTIticg536LCPercWpTvbG5dd8kJmtdLKl7OgfT DAkFKYvgQsKuFuRxqYU1EgVtS6yzivuqwBcfIN9r7BakbanFwKAonL+GFzjN3aE+FHAW AHEb3gC7i4CRHiWwtT/hGyQsY2ekoVOResegWeKY+tLOcrJTTwBPDw2HKQ6aeLWK8OEr YkV7XYzIlaMabIpfgr0Q1T4OIQ4LHMCmTaG0be0EcOf7zgewaWEToLMxH7zCJTd8USLO Wtv+tHtN6LBcLuWTNV70hnfLPcO1nE+YL1F65K4WEj5q2wnq04lG9eIfsQfbBVTdHzTL Yx8Q== Received: by 10.66.78.136 with SMTP id b8mr60437211pax.26.1352772536306; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.136.36.248] (mobile-198-228-208-183.mycingular.net. [198.228.208.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hc4sm5096420pbc.30.2012.11.12.18.08.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:08:55 -0800 (PST) References: <015701cdc0e4$fbc439f0$f34cadd0$@olddog.co.uk> <2835D71F-AEAE-49B3-8805-99F129C3F168@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <2835D71F-AEAE-49B3-8805-99F129C3F168@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <6D21D337-2DE8-423D-8908-4A498438830D@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: "Senad.palislamovic" Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:05:17 -0800 To: Raveendra Torvi Cc: "" , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 02:08:57 -0000 +1 for I2RS /senad Sent from my iPhone On Nov 12, 2012, at 7:06 AM, Raveendra Torvi wrote: > My first set of suggestions: >=20 > I2RS- interface 2 routing system. >=20 > IRNE - interface to routing network element. > IRE - interface to routing element > INE - interface to network element. > APIRS - API to RS. > APIRE >=20 > Ravi=20 > On Nov 12, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: >=20 >> Personally, I find discussions of what name/acronym to use a bit sad. I'v= e had >> enough code review hours wasted debating the names of variables to not wa= nt to >> spend any more time on this sort of thing. >>=20 >> However, I note that there was some unease about the use of IRS. If we re= ally >> need to find a new name for this work (and I note that RSI is also used f= or >> something else) we need to find a solution soon. >>=20 >> Can I suggest that only those people who have a strong objection to IRS n= eed to >> contribute to the discussion. Furthermore, we don't need suggestions to b= e >> floated, we need solid and definite proposals. That way we will possibly r= each a >> serious conclusion quickly. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Adrian >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> irs-discuss mailing list >> irs-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss From jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com Mon Nov 12 19:48:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5348221F8884 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:48:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1A-Zc3o5byYw for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr3.ericy.com (imr3.ericy.com [198.24.6.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97E921F84D5 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 19:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eusaamw0712.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.181]) by imr3.ericy.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAD3mgip029529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:48:42 -0600 Received: from EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se (147.117.188.90) by eusaamw0712.eamcs.ericsson.se (147.117.20.181) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.279.1; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:48:41 -0500 Received: from EUSAAMB109.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.126]) by EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.90]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:48:41 -0500 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "Senad.palislamovic" Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? Thread-Index: Ac3A5PsIVqU8XiJmRGOy8kKrHtrEtQAAkBWdACGAOID//8kRXw== Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 03:48:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <015701cdc0e4$fbc439f0$f34cadd0$@olddog.co.uk> <2835D71F-AEAE-49B3-8805-99F129C3F168@juniper.net>, <6D21D337-2DE8-423D-8908-4A498438830D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6D21D337-2DE8-423D-8908-4A498438830D@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" , Raveendra Torvi , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 03:48:47 -0000 Same here, I2IRS Regards, Jeff On Nov 12, 2012, at 18:09, "Senad.palislamovic" wrot= e: > +1 for I2RS >=20 > /senad >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Nov 12, 2012, at 7:06 AM, Raveendra Torvi wrote: >=20 >> My first set of suggestions: >>=20 >> I2RS- interface 2 routing system. >>=20 >> IRNE - interface to routing network element. >> IRE - interface to routing element >> INE - interface to network element. >> APIRS - API to RS. >> APIRE >>=20 >> Ravi=20 >> On Nov 12, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Adrian Farrel" wrote= : >>=20 >>> Personally, I find discussions of what name/acronym to use a bit sad. I= 've had >>> enough code review hours wasted debating the names of variables to not = want to >>> spend any more time on this sort of thing. >>>=20 >>> However, I note that there was some unease about the use of IRS. If we = really >>> need to find a new name for this work (and I note that RSI is also used= for >>> something else) we need to find a solution soon. >>>=20 >>> Can I suggest that only those people who have a strong objection to IRS= need to >>> contribute to the discussion. Furthermore, we don't need suggestions to= be >>> floated, we need solid and definite proposals. That way we will possibl= y reach a >>> serious conclusion quickly. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> irs-discuss mailing list >>> irs-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> irs-discuss mailing list >> irs-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss From mach.chen@huawei.com Tue Nov 13 00:06:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8B121F88E6 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:06:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.637, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iuAsX3eGQ8n5 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D25BB21F88E0 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.5-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id AMT18373; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:06:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:06:19 +0000 Received: from SZXEML431-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.72.61.39) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:06:22 +0000 Received: from SZXEML511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.192]) by szxeml431-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.72.61.39]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:05:48 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: "Shah, Himanshu" , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? Thread-Index: Ac3A5PsIVqU8XiJmRGOy8kKrHtrEtQABNjBQAAFSTIAAA0F7wAAeX6bA Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:05:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <015701cdc0e4$fbc439f0$f34cadd0$@olddog.co.uk> <62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD302525590@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <41AF8A5228F88746A65052DC6DE0739B0310ABC9@BY2PRD0511MB416.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.96.103] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: [irs-discuss] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFdoYXQncyBpbiBhIG5hbWU/?= X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:06:36 -0000 KzENCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KTWFjaA0KDQo+IC0tLS0t08q8/tStvP4tLS0tLQ0KPiC3orz+ yMs6IGlycy1kaXNjdXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzppcnMtZGlzY3Vzcy1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSC0+g0KPiCx7SBTaGFoLCBIaW1hbnNodQ0KPiC3osvNyrG85DogMjAxMsTq MTHUwjEzyNUgMTo0MA0KPiDK1bz+yMs6IGlycy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+INb3zOI6IFJl OiBbaXJzLWRpc2N1c3NdIFdoYXQncyBpbiBhIG5hbWU/DQo+IA0KPiBBZ3JlZS4NCj4gDQo+IEZh dm9yIEkyUlMgYXMgbmFtZS4uDQo+IA0KPiAvaGltYW5zaHUNCj4gDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwg TWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGlycy1kaXNjdXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0 bzppcnMtZGlzY3Vzcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbg0KPiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUmF2ZWVuZHJh IFRvcnZpDQo+IFNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTIsIDIwMTIgMTI6MjAgUE0NCj4gVG86 IFJvc3MgQ2FsbG9uOyBhZHJpYW5Ab2xkZG9nLmNvLnVrOyBpcnMtZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0K PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2lycy1kaXNjdXNzXSBXaGF0J3MgaW4gYSBuYW1lPw0KPiANCj4gVXNp bmcgYWNyb255bSBvdGhlciB0aGFuICdJUlMnIG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIHRvIG1lIGFzIGl0IGdpdmVz IGNsZWFuZXIgd2ViDQo+IHNlYXJjaCByZXN1bHRzLg0KPiBCZXN0LA0KPiBSYXZpDQo+IA0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBpcnMtZGlz Y3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaXJzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcnMtZGlzY3Vzcw0K From adrian@olddog.co.uk Tue Nov 13 05:07:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F360621F85E7 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 05:07:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVE7TewR3po8 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 05:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B17F21F8573 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 05:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qADD7ZSJ020294 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:07:35 GMT Received: from 950129200 ([109.144.212.179]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qADD7Yji020277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:07:34 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:07:37 -0000 Message-ID: <03ba01cdc19f$daef7760$90ce6620$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3Bn9Y5Hh6s2viqTbmPXB6mEaccAw== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [irs-discuss] Now you're all awake! X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:07:47 -0000 Can we have some constructive discussion about which use cases to include in the charter and which ones to exclude. I am pretty sure I heard the BoF say that they wanted to reduce the scope by cutting down on the use cases, and as I said at the meeting I am worried that this just means that each person wants to limit the scope their favorite use case. So we will only get victory if there is considerable convergence on what the favorite is. Thoughts? Thanks, Adrian From ietfc@btconnect.com Tue Nov 13 07:24:30 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DF921F85C9 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:24:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.491, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id twzStUNMMGLg for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from co9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (co9ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [207.46.163.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B7821F85C2 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail99-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.241) by CO9EHSOBE030.bigfish.com (10.236.130.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:19 +0000 Received: from mail99-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail99-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBFD4A0154; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.249.213; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:AM2PRD0710HT003.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -22 X-BigFish: PS-22(zz9371I542Mzz1de0h1202h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839hd24hf0ah1177h1179h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah139eh13b6h1441h1504h1537h304l1155h) Received: from mail99-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail99-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 1352820257489167_12374; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS025.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.253]) by mail99-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7574EE004A; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM2PRD0710HT003.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.249.213) by CO9EHSMHS025.bigfish.com (10.236.130.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:14 +0000 Received: from BY2PRD0710HT005.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.236.133) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.255.165.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.239.5; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:11 +0000 Message-ID: <000201cdc1b2$ced1ae40$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Iftekhar Hussain , References: <015701cdc0e4$fbc439f0$f34cadd0$@olddog.co.uk><2835D71F-AEAE-49B3-8805-99F129C3F168@juniper.net><50A11923.4040004@cisco.com><2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D4482FBF5@dfweml505-mbx><62CCD4C52ACDAD4481149BD5D8A72FD302525617@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com><50A12F9F.2040803@gmail.com> <50A134E0.4090701@queuefull.net><384438043-1352744136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1255086084-@b15.c23.bise6.blackberry> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:19:49 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.236.133] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:24:30 -0000 ---- Original Message ----- From: "Iftekhar Hussain" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] What's in a name? > Both I2RS and ITRS seem okay. Except that '2' gets misread as 'Z'. It is generally a bad idea to mix digits in with letters; all letters is the more human, the more natural, less likely to be copied or typed in error. I2RS is unlikely to have many existing direct matches in search engines simply because it is unnatural. Tom Petch > Regards, > Iftekhar From shane@castlepoint.net Tue Nov 13 07:57:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBB421F871A for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:57:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyfXEwkHE0tZ for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.friendswithtools.org (unknown [64.78.239.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8426221F86D3 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dspam (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.friendswithtools.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 637D220F1 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:57:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.9.0.10] (web.hollyman.com [64.78.239.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.friendswithtools.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 260E71A4B; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:57:22 -0700 (MST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Shane Amante In-Reply-To: <03ba01cdc19f$daef7760$90ce6620$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:57:22 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43A3C76D-E3E8-4EF3-B511-A0DCF918B4DF@castlepoint.net> References: <03ba01cdc19f$daef7760$90ce6620$@olddog.co.uk> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-DSPAM-Result: Innocent X-DSPAM-Processed: Tue Nov 13 08:57:23 2012 X-DSPAM-Confidence: 1.0000 X-DSPAM-Improbability: 1 in 98689409 chance of being spam X-DSPAM-Probability: 0.0023 X-DSPAM-Signature: 50a26de3199631676816196 X-DSPAM-Factors: 27, routers+#+that, 0.40000, draft+white, 0.40000, are+Route, 0.40000, there+#+#+#+on, 0.40000, BGP+#+represents, 0.40000, routers+#+#+#+amount, 0.40000, programmatic+#+#+#+and, 0.40000, offboard+#+but, 0.40000, benefit+#+#+#+cases, 0.40000, problem+#+solve, 0.40000, particularly+for, 0.40000, what+the, 0.40000, back+#+#+at, 0.40000, early+#+#+these, 0.40000, be+#+a, 0.40000, that+case, 0.40000, would+#+#+#+use, 0.40000, Reflectors+in, 0.40000, here+#+an, 0.40000, subset+#+#+elements, 0.40000, case+#+#+will, 0.40000, approaches+#+#+yet, 0.40000, that+are, 0.40000, a+need, 0.40000, those+#+of, 0.40000, it's+#+#+#+that, 0.40000, thorny+#+however, 0.40000 Cc: irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Now you're all awake! X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:57:28 -0000 On Nov 13, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Can we have some constructive discussion about which use cases to = include in the > charter and which ones to exclude. >=20 > I am pretty sure I heard the BoF say that they wanted to reduce the = scope by > cutting down on the use cases, and as I said at the meeting I am = worried that > this just means that each person wants to limit the scope their = favorite use > case. So we will only get victory if there is considerable convergence = on what > the favorite is. >=20 > Thoughts? I would like to offer potentially narrowing the scope to use cases to = those described in: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases-00 ... and in Sections 2 through 4 of: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-white-irs-use-case-00 (To be completely fair, draft-white did appear /first/ in the I-D = archives, but IMO it's good to see that independent draft authors share = similar needs :-). My reason for suggesting this are as follows: a) If one takes a step back and looks at overall "SDN" landscape, = Inter-Domain seems to not be visible on the radar (particularly for = Openflow), for now. This makes sense given Inter-Domain is hard problem = to solve, given the legitimate concerns that raises wrt = authentication/trust boundaries, etc. Furthermore, the use cases = described in I-D's, above, are about reading, digesting and then = manipulating BGP characteristics /inside of/ one AS (sidestepping those = thorny issues) ... however, clearly once information is injected into = BGP it will get carried across AS boundaries, whose properties are = already understood. IMO, this solves a need that other SDN approaches = have not (yet, if ever). b) When looking at BGP, as a whole, it seems like there may be a few = different dimensions of the BGP protocol that might be a useful starting = place for the initial scope of the I2RS work. Namely, BGP is a protocol = whose operation depends on policies -- specifically, routing policies = that are largely defined offboard routers, but that need to be applied = consistently across the _entire_ network of routers. As one example, = think of the need to classify some set of interfaces as belonging to = "customers" vs. "peers" and, after that, applying different routing = policies against those classes of BGP sessions. Another example is = here: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases-01#section-4.3 ... where an operator needs to know which subset of routers are "Route = Reflectors" in order to apply appropriate policy consistently on all of = them, (in that case: defining RT's to filter routes send toward legacy = PE's). IMO, getting an early start on these routing policies and = defining the semantics of how/where they apply to a subset of network = elements in the network is extremely valuable and, ultimately, would = benefit all future use cases of I2RS. c) Finally, as I noted in my presentation at IETF 85, BGP policy = represents the overwhelming majority of configuration on routers and a = substantial amount of the ongoing 'touches' to routers. Thus, it makes = sense to have a standardized, programmatic access to read and write such = information on routers. Finally, as an operator, I can certainly say that optimizing control = over BGP *just Intra-AS* would be of a _substantial_ benefit. Just my $0.02, -shane= From tnadeau@juniper.net Tue Nov 13 08:24:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E34021F849A for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:24:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j8Qlrvol+zQz for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og109.obsmtp.com (exprod7og109.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA6021F8475 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob109.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUKJ0GVWSfx/SeAYq7fLolIZwALuEc58W@postini.com; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:23:55 PST Received: from P-CLDFE01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.59) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:21:28 -0800 Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:21:28 -0800 Received: from tx2outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (65.55.88.15) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:23:48 -0800 Received: from mail65-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.235) by TX2EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (10.9.40.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:26 +0000 Received: from mail65-tx2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail65-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B40E1A0122 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.245.197; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:CH1PRD0511HT004.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -23 X-BigFish: PS-23(zz98dI9371I1432Izz1de0h1202h1d1ah1d2ahzz8275ch1033IL17326ah8275dhz2dh2a8h668h839h944hd25he5bhf0ah1220h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh1155h) Received: from mail65-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail65-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1352823684453087_24171; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS005.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.240]) by mail65-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE6A0063; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0511HT004.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.197) by TX2EHSMHS005.bigfish.com (10.9.99.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:23 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0511MB420.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.9.137]) by CH1PRD0511HT004.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.159.39]) with mapi id 14.16.0233.004; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:22 +0000 From: Thomas Nadeau To: Shane Amante Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] Now you're all awake! Thread-Index: Ac3Bn9Y5Hh6s2viqTbmPXB6mEaccAwAF7rMAAADWnrA= Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:21:22 +0000 Message-ID: <4B1A3AFF-7800-4E63-9D51-8A082888F858@juniper.net> References: <03ba01cdc19f$daef7760$90ce6620$@olddog.co.uk>, <43A3C76D-E3E8-4EF3-B511-A0DCF918B4DF@castlepoint.net> In-Reply-To: <43A3C76D-E3E8-4EF3-B511-A0DCF918B4DF@castlepoint.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [166.137.144.155] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%CASTLEPOINT.NET$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%OLDDOG.CO.UK$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "irs-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] Now you're all awake! X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:24:20 -0000 we should also include the corresponding topology use cases. Tom=20 On Nov 13, 2012, at 8:57 AM, "Shane Amante" wrote: >=20 > On Nov 13, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> Can we have some constructive discussion about which use cases to includ= e in the >> charter and which ones to exclude. >>=20 >> I am pretty sure I heard the BoF say that they wanted to reduce the scop= e by >> cutting down on the use cases, and as I said at the meeting I am worried= that >> this just means that each person wants to limit the scope their favorite= use >> case. So we will only get victory if there is considerable convergence o= n what >> the favorite is. >>=20 >> Thoughts? >=20 > I would like to offer potentially narrowing the scope to use cases to tho= se described in: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases-00 > ... and in Sections 2 through 4 of: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-white-irs-use-case-00 > (To be completely fair, draft-white did appear /first/ in the I-D archive= s, but IMO it's good to see that independent draft authors share similar ne= eds :-). >=20 > My reason for suggesting this are as follows: > a) If one takes a step back and looks at overall "SDN" landscape, Inter-= Domain seems to not be visible on the radar (particularly for Openflow), fo= r now. This makes sense given Inter-Domain is hard problem to solve, given= the legitimate concerns that raises wrt authentication/trust boundaries, e= tc. Furthermore, the use cases described in I-D's, above, are about readin= g, digesting and then manipulating BGP characteristics /inside of/ one AS (= sidestepping those thorny issues) ... however, clearly once information is = injected into BGP it will get carried across AS boundaries, whose propertie= s are already understood. IMO, this solves a need that other SDN approache= s have not (yet, if ever). > b) When looking at BGP, as a whole, it seems like there may be a few dif= ferent dimensions of the BGP protocol that might be a useful starting place= for the initial scope of the I2RS work. Namely, BGP is a protocol whose o= peration depends on policies -- specifically, routing policies that are lar= gely defined offboard routers, but that need to be applied consistently acr= oss the _entire_ network of routers. As one example, think of the need to = classify some set of interfaces as belonging to "customers" vs. "peers" and= , after that, applying different routing policies against those classes of = BGP sessions. Another example is here: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases-01#section-4.3 > ... where an operator needs to know which subset of routers are "Route Re= flectors" in order to apply appropriate policy consistently on all of them,= (in that case: defining RT's to filter routes send toward legacy PE's). I= MO, getting an early start on these routing policies and defining the seman= tics of how/where they apply to a subset of network elements in the network= is extremely valuable and, ultimately, would benefit all future use cases = of I2RS. > c) Finally, as I noted in my presentation at IETF 85, BGP policy represe= nts the overwhelming majority of configuration on routers and a substantial= amount of the ongoing 'touches' to routers. Thus, it makes sense to have = a standardized, programmatic access to read and write such information on r= outers. >=20 > Finally, as an operator, I can certainly say that optimizing control over= BGP *just Intra-AS* would be of a _substantial_ benefit. >=20 > Just my $0.02, >=20 > -shane > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >=20 From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Fri Nov 16 00:43:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F41621F872A for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:43:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FaqpQXABskmd for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FCB21F8504 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.49]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90DF20C82; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:43:22 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33tCc5PFCU-M; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:43:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7736F20C70; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:43:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1E2F322D44DD; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:43:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:43:25 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: irs-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20121116084325.GA2361@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: irs-discuss@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: [irs-discuss] [j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de: 2nd wg last call on interfaces / ip / routing data models] X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:43:33 -0000 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, I am forwarding this here since IRS people may want to have a second look at the IP routing data model currently being finalized in the NETMOD working group. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (212.201.44.23) by SHUBCAS04.jacobs.jacobs-university.de (10.70.0.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.318.4; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:40:19 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.48]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94ADC20C87; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:40:22 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gmn6lknoKxyr; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:40:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3947520C84; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:40:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id AD91422D4463; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:40:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:40:24 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Subject: 2nd wg last call on interfaces / ip / routing data models Message-ID: <20121116084024.GA2302@elstar.local> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: netmod@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Return-Path: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthSource: SHUBCAS04.jacobs.jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AVStamp-Mailbox: MSFTFF;1;0;0 0 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, this is the start of the 2nd WG last call on the following set of documents: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-interfaces-cfg-08 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-ip-cfg-07 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-06 A related document, the YANG version of the interface type and AFN/SAFI IANA registries, had no issues raised during 1st WG last call and has not changed: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-iana-if-type-04 Please review the documents and raise any issues you might discover by opening a thread on the mailing list. Editorial fixes can be sent directly to the document editors. Please indicate your support by *Friday, November 30, 2012*. We are not only interested in receiving defect reports, we are equally interested in statements of the form: "I have reviewed I-D XYZ and I found no issues" "I have implemented the data model in I-D XYZ" "I am implementing the data model in I-D XYZ" "I am considering to implement the data model in I-D XYZ" /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7-- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Nov 16 08:42:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F4121F8661 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jadS4b6NZllM for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DDA21F85ED for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAGGgcc2018555 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:42:38 GMT Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id qAGGgbv4018537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:42:37 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <20121115231740.32653.1891.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20121115231740.32653.1891.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:42:41 -0000 Message-ID: <02ed01cdc419$65b13070$31139150$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFpS3lZa9yBlMASVcWcMMmFFwfgIZi1m8cQ Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [irs-discuss] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:42:41 -0000 Heads up Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 15 November 2012 23:18 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt > > A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : IRS Use Case for IP and Transport Workflows > Author(s) : G. Mattson, et al > Filename : draft-mattson-irs-usecase > Pages : 8 > Date : Nov. 15, 2012 > > This document describes use-cases for IRS to provide a lightweight > method for common management and control state for typical operations > and workflows of multilayer networks involving both IP and sub-IP > transport. IRS provides a lightweight, streaming interface between > routing systems and external applications. By extending the IRS model > to transport systems, multi-layer networks can be managed and used > more efficiently. IRS may enable the integration of IP and transport > maintenance workflows leading to a reduction in operational costs. > IRS server having visibility into both Optical Transport and IP > domains will also be able to make optimal use of transport > infrastructure. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. From lberger@labn.net Fri Nov 16 09:41:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D7821F84E4 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:41:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.715 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.715 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vYhWLd2DIoib for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from oproxy11-pub.bluehost.com (173-254-64-10.unifiedlayer.com [173.254.64.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E8B5821F84D8 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 542 invoked by uid 0); 16 Nov 2012 17:41:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box313.bluehost.com) (69.89.31.113) by oproxy11.bluehost.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2012 17:41:09 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=onGwsg/pjPvMLX9a1KD33ACWCNFIrlxVOkA9oCInkVA=; b=FeqIJxPqlLmVfIN/ALyFf3ZKD2tsw9QCKqpiDpqcbr+nDtrIYfxt0LSnVYHnVSoKFyioZg79EH49armrrZhEEr0Sn/2OGdfJsuHzN9j1v7CFyXrqax3boo+u9CsNo+yI; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:52009 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TZPuf-0006R7-41; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:41:09 -0700 Message-ID: <50A67AB0.4050307@labn.net> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:41:04 -0500 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <20121115231740.32653.1891.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02ed01cdc419$65b13070$31139150$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <02ed01cdc419$65b13070$31139150$@olddog.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Cc: irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 17:41:39 -0000 Adrian, Authors, This document seems to omit the case where there is an IP based control plane on the transport gear. Is this intentional (or did I miss it)? It seems like this should be part of the the "Transport Workflow" use case... Lou On 11/16/2012 11:42 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Heads up > > Adrian > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: 15 November 2012 23:18 >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt >> >> A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. >> >> >> Title : IRS Use Case for IP and Transport Workflows >> Author(s) : G. Mattson, et al >> Filename : draft-mattson-irs-usecase >> Pages : 8 >> Date : Nov. 15, 2012 >> >> This document describes use-cases for IRS to provide a lightweight >> method for common management and control state for typical operations >> and workflows of multilayer networks involving both IP and sub-IP >> transport. IRS provides a lightweight, streaming interface between >> routing systems and external applications. By extending the IRS model >> to transport systems, multi-layer networks can be managed and used >> more efficiently. IRS may enable the integration of IP and transport >> maintenance workflows leading to a reduction in operational costs. >> IRS server having visibility into both Optical Transport and IP >> domains will also be able to make optimal use of transport >> infrastructure. >> >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >> Internet-Draft. > > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss > > > > From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Fri Nov 16 11:47:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: irs-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD63521F8AD2 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:47:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i2KhZG6MEgTU for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE8021F8AC9 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.51] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DED2334A2A; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:47:26 -0500 (EST) References: <20121115231740.32653.1891.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02ed01cdc419$65b13070$31139150$@olddog.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <02ed01cdc419$65b13070$31139150$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (10A523) From: Thomas D Nadeau Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:47:26 -0500 To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Cc: "" Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt X-BeenThere: irs-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:47:27 -0000 Just a reminder that there is a holiday for much of the week next w= eek, so please hold off on any comments until the week after lest they get l= ost. --Tom On Nov 16, 2012, at 11:42 AM, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > Heads up >=20 > Adrian >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org= ] >> On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: 15 November 2012 23:18 >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt >>=20 >> A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. >>=20 >>=20 >> Title : IRS Use Case for IP and Transport Workflows >> Author(s) : G. Mattson, et al >> Filename : draft-mattson-irs-usecase >> Pages : 8 >> Date : Nov. 15, 2012 >>=20 >> This document describes use-cases for IRS to provide a lightweight >> method for common management and control state for typical operations >> and workflows of multilayer networks involving both IP and sub-IP >> transport. IRS provides a lightweight, streaming interface between >> routing systems and external applications. By extending the IRS model >> to transport systems, multi-layer networks can be managed and used >> more efficiently. IRS may enable the integration of IP and transport >> maintenance workflows leading to a reduction in operational costs. >> IRS server having visibility into both Optical Transport and IP >> domains will also be able to make optimal use of transport >> infrastructure. >>=20 >>=20 >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mattson-irs-usecase-00.txt >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >> Internet-Draft. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >=20