From nobody Mon Jun 1 00:51:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6025B3A0DCE for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=um.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytjlYNEPjVOh for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.puc.rediris.es (outbound1mad.lav.puc.rediris.es [130.206.19.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F11A3A0D5F for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 00:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xenon41.um.es (xenon41.um.es [155.54.212.167]) by mx01.puc.rediris.es with ESMTP id 0517pVCu004623-0517pVCv004623 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:51:31 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xenon41.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609A620019 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:51:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by antispam in UMU at xenon41.um.es Received: from xenon41.um.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (xenon41.um.es [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tpiXDtwx7b83 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:51:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.159] (unknown [83.143.108.236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: eduardo.ingles) by xenon41.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 398DD1FE05 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:51:29 +0200 (CEST) To: lake@ietf.org References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Eduardo Ingles (UM)" Message-ID: <0235d569-b6b4-1096-446e-759a03623ec2@um.es> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:51:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9EC7D89D7A8724F3B9C617CA" Content-Language: es-ES Authentication-Results: mx01.puc.rediris.es; spf=pass (rediris.es: domain of eduardo.ingles@um.es designates 155.54.212.167 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eduardo.ingles@um.es DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; d=um.es; s=DKIM; c=relaxed/relaxed; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version:content-type; bh=zs90lvXhTcnaXLnO3nxjoEwTIs6pZEX8gO2jzTEEurg=; b=Ki2sx87XCB4flB+iUh/PX010Ixh3esDq31X71gXH6+PKYdMLaHIiQq12ZxH4JpgMfkD18CsqkAWh EFbKTx0Mdk66uhB7x3y3AkHEwTfU+OxdZtntd7rYXEYHG8yER8dpmPqnSDXhRiQ5Z3uG9Kq0iDY7 G8JY50o9Xtk0sJhcg8ZCPCN0zBG/qUb33st9cESbC5Yjiv88qvJS3z36SYByo9UuyICCJihU9Gin KvkOytzXtnjuuJ645RSkGp7CwQYLZEowmsYuiTDxnN6MuI6wWsQIZcVt5drFmSnQFdoozqu1+Qvf BJC09SZ1s6ak0xobIfWruSlaDWoeY//evHiRQg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 07:51:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9EC7D89D7A8724F3B9C617CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Stephen, I'm happy with this text. I support the working group moving forward. Regards, Eduardo Inglés. El 24/05/2020 a las 23:07, Stephen Farrell escribió: > Hi all, > > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) > > ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of > the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs > checking. (See below.) > > I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus > being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the > scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) > That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last > month. > > So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy > enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd > appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as > few changes as possible. > > This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough > consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a > call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have > to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that > would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. > > The scoping text added was: > > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. > > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 > > -- Eduardo Inglés Sánchez eduardo.ingles@um.es Department of Information and Communication Engineering Faculty of Computer Science University of Murcia 30100 Murcia, Spain --------------9EC7D89D7A8724F3B9C617CA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Stephen,

I'm happy with this text.
I support the working group moving forward.

Regards,
Eduardo Inglés.

El 24/05/2020 a las 23:07, Stephen Farrell escribió:
Hi all,

First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got
sidetracked by an unexpected project.)

ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of
the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs
checking. (See below.)

I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus
being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the
scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].)
That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last
month.

So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy
enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd
appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as
few changes as possible.

This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough
consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a
call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have
to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that
would mean that the WG is very badly stuck.

The scoping text added was:

   As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
   in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
   the unconstrained web.  In order to deliver a timely
   result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
   considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
   (by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
   Information about validity of a certificate may be
   omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
   links.  The case of transporting certificate validation
   information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
   phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
   existing standards and tools.

   A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
   inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
   having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
   to support the migration path described above.  The AKE
   needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
   initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
   additional cases.

Thanks,
Stephen.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1


-- 
Eduardo Inglés Sánchez
eduardo.ingles@um.es

Department of Information and Communication Engineering
Faculty of Computer Science
University of Murcia
30100 Murcia, Spain
--------------9EC7D89D7A8724F3B9C617CA-- From nobody Mon Jun 1 05:13:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4727A3A0FCB for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 05:13:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbehStFSENDw for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 05:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A22483A0FCD for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 05:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id t18so11278445wru.6 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 05:13:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+CYdaxReYk99nn8+nggWwgUTT2ZTZYjF6ic3nz3GAs4=; b=NT6DHqYUKD8/at3oUIgK4gnH5ZsCuZGFtiSNJSkzCJn4ywGY4UKtjXgbGm8Zsd1GdD gbwGUEtQQnRbMSFEXj0Ja0xM3W2ed5xfThA3JE0mhBH3ujeMkLkxXg6yiFsw6bkhaYt6 PzL7aXNIFQHK134MozblFGBYyEfRibZOL0Id3Ki58xbQoHO1Dwho0jsbkWFZpnJsu01m ydbSnWdkEnYylYY+OC0GPkBlgVvAK/iheWnailAfpqReRzdAeeYbUDB29vV1Nc5/aWSV +YaOc6dCNRmed24laDE/xT8AD2I4dR3mLc7+czmNMkH+h5u5/L3pALmCsvfyFFFeIKlP GRNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+CYdaxReYk99nn8+nggWwgUTT2ZTZYjF6ic3nz3GAs4=; b=EGq1GZAIO+bPORVG6eFdWivkrNBj+JqTdBXZ2bcgKHi3DxhY9Frkh5ipsZKbJKsXN6 06uqBll4shG+Alqaaq/NgsqVBvSW74ZeWomyjwEOci/A3v5oL/agC1A5vcmyjAJp1v8t 0jd/yAaN+RAztJoa5fDKGaHmbmXAtNXKk+wWKK0ta+hI+fo6ncTWoE227f7HATpOOjv7 GQVBMBiEbv/DRSm326GCfyzamOLKXngft95eddFV6LrXfcMwJZmtuO4+yAklHlnR6OiB 6O5epQqjWGKt7pbUgUul3kA1xZyf1KlIBJokOWRQ4rOhXt/LqylOvYZc5sSi39q/XzUg /S7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kohGciqQ2NY9b/9m4sh9meW3dP3eCnm6ROunBMEwPZOoXdp06 mwbvU6B8hAIgvyLNJRrRrK1Gpnp5ia2bx3n6J+OIDQMdjLs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6OJehYOKmLNMe8X8dv+vZdOGYz4pb2dSEmf1rlhESohxrRN6PLWIBTh/viaUZ4GEc53siByIrcL1OTqluTWo= X-Received: by 2002:adf:ee47:: with SMTP id w7mr21126791wro.171.1591013609651; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 05:13:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> <0235d569-b6b4-1096-446e-759a03623ec2@um.es> In-Reply-To: <0235d569-b6b4-1096-446e-759a03623ec2@um.es> From: Ivaylo Petrov Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:13:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000954f005a704b943" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 12:13:34 -0000 --0000000000000954f005a704b943 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Stephen, I am also happy with this text and I support the working group moving forward in the proposed way. Best regards, Ivaylo On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 9:51 AM Eduardo Ingles (UM) wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > I'm happy with this text. > I support the working group moving forward. > > Regards, > Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s. > El 24/05/2020 a las 23:07, Stephen Farrell escribi=C3=B3: > > Hi all, > > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) > > ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of > the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs > checking. (See below.) > > I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus > being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the > scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) > That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last > month. > > So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy > enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd > appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as > few changes as possible. > > This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough > consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a > call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have > to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that > would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. > > The scoping text added was: > > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. > > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 > > > -- > Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s S=C3=A1nchezeduardo.ingles@um.es > > Department of Information and Communication Engineering > Faculty of Computer Science > University of Murcia > 30100 Murcia, Spain > > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --0000000000000954f005a704b943 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello=C2=A0Stephen,

I am also happy with this text and I support the working group moving f= orward in the proposed way.

Best regards,<= /div>
Ivaylo
<= /div>


On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 9:51 AM Eduardo Ingles (UM) <= ;eduardo.ingles@um.es> wrote= :
=20 =20 =20

Hi Stephen,

I'm happy with this text.
I support the working group moving forward.

Regards,
Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s.

El 24/05/2020 a las 23:07, Stephen Farrell escribi=C3=B3:
Hi all,

First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got
sidetracked by an unexpected project.)

ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of
the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs
checking. (See below.)

I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus
being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the
scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].)
That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last
month.

So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy
enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd
appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as
few changes as possible.

This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough
consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a
call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have
to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that
would mean that the WG is very badly stuck.

The scoping text added was:

   As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
   in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
   the unconstrained web.  In order to deliver a timely
   result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
   considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
   (by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
   Information about validity of a certificate may be
   omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
   links.  The case of transporting certificate validation
   information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
   phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
   existing standards and tools.

   A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
   inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
   having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
   to support the migration path described above.  The AKE
   needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
   initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
   additional cases.

Thanks,
Stephen.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-0=
3#section-2.2.1


--=20
Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s S=C3=A1nchez
eduardo.ingles@um=
.es

Department of Information and Communication Engineering
Faculty of Computer Science
University of Murcia
30100 Murcia, Spain
--
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Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
--0000000000000954f005a704b943-- From nobody Mon Jun 1 05:15:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E117D3A10DA for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 05:15:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=primekey.com header.b=VhZhiYmx; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=primekey.com header.b=VhZhiYmx Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uxVQAlRzm1XS for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 05:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.primekey.com (mail.primekey.com [84.55.121.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F9493A10C1 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 05:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.primekey.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.primekey.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D723B6AA0090 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:05:31 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=primekey.com; s=mail; t=1591013131; bh=O38J6yGnB5yxvPVge6eyH0ManmdzFdesQngE2XGuRyM=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=VhZhiYmxYuU3wssiJor/FlPQVDiM3f93h3UZA1My/NY722/V60nU9VSLOoA+Ww55A /wM+WA0EujENTIhzHJIigFkluzeF/aziOrH0gg6Ifn/WmaTyKsMjIUFTrB1stPtfWa GKnwdsKvTRFl8I8bfwBGMfZ6Fhu/RxXvRD5FZePc= Received: from [10.11.0.7] (gatekeeper.primekey.se [84.55.121.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.primekey.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B6DD36AA0082 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:05:31 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=primekey.com; s=mail; t=1591013131; bh=O38J6yGnB5yxvPVge6eyH0ManmdzFdesQngE2XGuRyM=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=VhZhiYmxYuU3wssiJor/FlPQVDiM3f93h3UZA1My/NY722/V60nU9VSLOoA+Ww55A /wM+WA0EujENTIhzHJIigFkluzeF/aziOrH0gg6Ifn/WmaTyKsMjIUFTrB1stPtfWa GKnwdsKvTRFl8I8bfwBGMfZ6Fhu/RxXvRD5FZePc= To: lake@ietf.org From: Tomas Gustavsson Autocrypt: addr=tomas.gustavsson@primekey.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEyuwwYBCAD31Jsxn1lf7rnFc7y3Ol+TE7pU7ohO78kMdoVrZdAMnU9W0P33GedbU+kF 8/RFq7HlXV8a91RkgtdcMAK8tSdtBKDGZCOJZm5qOZ/EHikY8k/7s1wgSQSF4hYSG/IABCCA W139joDFl4L3buWyk2lsYX1HDBpuXGDL5HFyu165T0ZVlt23T04xmAwpIHUViKUWw1QYnlRz s66Desn2WeP+X8/QlqF1zOTUXbgrThB1X/Oh2+wzP08HVoTQCzlrEMeb9x2k+oa8PtVdnflh nZKBtyyBkZxRoHG3tNKcaf7JLoadSXcSKSKvfApcsxpP2JpkQgIhLi3JWik/Z+RR2WD1ABEB AAHNMFRvbWFzIEd1c3RhdnNzb24gPHRvbWFzLmd1c3RhdnNzb25AcHJpbWVrZXkuY29tPsLA dwQTAQgAIQUCWX8yTAIbIwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBibcSbAEP+QGAU CAC82dn8XCQ8Ei7gxQAdRSc2imaP/388i/ObDMYhNhg5j4gXs3tkfxuCvhwkzskUFgOtmaEy uz/gIiVjQIsjQrHh5tl9M0q2tqbDHJpWfE6/SkXPUmTqQ0VGyq1MmZ3/zg2jSoll74qBSfdH V7sWugRXeCBxfaPeYo8DdPCGi27yrdL8zb3xkJ3BxPcDGNdkLm+Yza+qAOrssCD7MSLN+6Sd ML5Xcmw6pgRPlQ0aCsM7scrwgBNb7KrwxaqBxqwcuqF0NMgNjeiEHi2Oj3HOZdYU4Blk2GFq 9zHuCzTWumgNOlfksZ9K3ZMJBn6KLPot5bVXIKdnHwWRzoKMDxkSZjM5zsBNBEyuwwYBCADZ 98eCFQ64zKo1OKkUgEJHO1JdsiqRO1znu6KyaTcd2vXfOCGkFFVBL+vjzzyyYV7Sg1/AaG4r l9TKJCwvx8mUmTJkKQspTfOj6AY33bmfMB/8LBYj2BjtxXyMucPjNTJqbL2r1HeGPV2nwyof MAyo2qcYuiLs20Ob7U8vooOV3GDDKEkXtJYZzTEU6qabGsepGIvMu770OZwvm4akQiCGe5sQ 4+/UH1pMZQNi+/fGbONFx+TUVMM8EkXD6dQ5WoL+xPabPjqiUmR7EBvg0uocr70Ag93tWk1d 4RgFcicjwMFcPg4TZ8Y/3Y7Nmbyo14+4SMNfNPFLgQMawL+cLLkdABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkC GwwFAlYXhXUACgkQYm3EmwBD/kA2igf/QNpPe7sLt3KdRD3x4cStxGjLCWyj7x1YLVnV4Nnu TvaNhC+KHx3uG39y1x3PJQwslpeSQ6JipOUmxeQjjGJGQZLV41L1PCJVhCL98Dinr6dJkYB7 cAVhfmW8PI51jiANExLZu8U5gnthj5CGv4428ODQgSoRI0demG3HmVCNrKdap+orhT8zRkq8 DuHTO01U7PKsfvQ2k8AqSAC/JjMOs1mpFe032IApXxlZkE+33Q3dE5BiJmICYg8hsRXvpKTm ZMCdNZJUQLq+XNpg6RtAPQIPMmCepXrE9M/KuH+jFS2G5+Hx5VBSM644E1G2i+HOPCVdHjof iaNi3V/ItEG3jw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:05:47 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 12:15:36 -0000 Hi, We are working with PKI for IoT and are happy with the initial focus of the requirements. Regards, Tomas Gustavsson -- PrimeKey Solutions AB Solna Access Plan A8, Sundbybergsvägen 1, 171 63 Solna, Sweden Mob: +46 (0)707421096 Internet: www.primekey.se Twitter: twitter.com/primekeyPKI -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell Sent: Sun, 24 May 2020 21:08 UTC To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Subject: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text Stephen Farrell Sun, 24 May 2020 21:08 UTCShow header Hi all, First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got sidetracked by an unexpected project.) ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs checking. (See below.) I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last month. So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as few changes as possible. This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. The scoping text added was: As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely result, there is a need to initially focus on what is considered most important at the time of writing: RPK (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. Information about validity of a certificate may be omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained links. The case of transporting certificate validation information over the AKE may be specified in the initial phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches existing standards and tools. A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, to support the migration path described above. The AKE needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for additional cases. Thanks, Stephen. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 From nobody Mon Jun 1 08:31:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516F93A11B0 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iURFrjUN7Sx3 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A213A116B for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 08:31:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,461,1583190000"; d="scan'208";a="350201540" Received: from unknown (HELO meganisi.t-com.me) ([37.122.176.171]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 01 Jun 2020 17:30:59 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: =?utf-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= In-Reply-To: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 17:30:58 +0200 Cc: "lake@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <102FC0C5-55BB-4007-BE72-C9938ACD06BD@inria.fr> References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 15:31:22 -0000 (chair hat off) The scoping text fits the zero-touch network access use case we=E2=80=99ve= been working on as a follow up work of the 6TiSCH protocol suite, = documented at [1]. Therefore, I support it being adopted by LAKE. Mali=C5=A1a [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-selander-ace-ake-authz/ > On 24 May 2020, at 23:07, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) >=20 > ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of > the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs > checking. (See below.) >=20 > I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus > being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the > scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) > That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last > month. >=20 > So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy > enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd > appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as > few changes as possible. >=20 > This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough > consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a > call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have > to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that > would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. >=20 > The scoping text added was: >=20 > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. >=20 > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. >=20 > Thanks, > Stephen. >=20 > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 >=20 > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--=20 > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake From nobody Mon Jun 1 09:51:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC96F3A08DD for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ri.se; Received: from VI1P189MB0398.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:802:35::31) by VI1P189MB0495.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:802:35::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3045.22; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 16:51:18 +0000 Received: from VI1P189MB0398.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::5db5:cc81:e984:7c27]) by VI1P189MB0398.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::5db5:cc81:e984:7c27%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3045.022; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 16:51:18 +0000 To: Stephen Farrell , "lake@ietf.org" References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> From: Marco Tiloca Autocrypt: addr=marco.tiloca@ri.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFSNeRUBCAC44iazWzj/PE3TiAlBsaWna0JbdIAJFHB8PLrqthI0ZG7GnCLNR8ZhDz6Z aRDPC4FR3UcMhPgZpJIqa6Zi8yWYCqF7A7QhT7E1WdQR1G0+6xUEd0ZD+QBdf29pQadrVZAt 0G4CkUnq5H+Sm05aw2Cpv3JfsATVaemWmujnMTvZ3dFudCGNdsY6kPSVzMRyedX7ArLXyF+0 Kh1T4WUW6NHfEWltnzkcqRhn2NcZtADsxWrMBgZXkLE/dP67SnyFjWYpz7aNpxxA+mb5WBT+ NrSetJlljT0QOXrXMGh98GLfNnLAl6gJryE6MZazN5oxkJgkAep8SevFXzglj7CAsh4PABEB AAG0Nk1hcmNvIFRpbG9jYSAobWFyY28udGlsb2NhQHJpLnNlKSA8bWFyY28udGlsb2NhQHJp LnNlPokBNwQTAQgAIQUCWkAnkAIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDuJmS0 DljaQwEvCACJKPJIPGH0oGnLJY4G1I2DgNiyVKt1H4kkc/eT8Bz9OSbAxgZo3Jky382e4Dba ayWrQRFen0aLSFuzbU4BX4O/YRSaIqUO3KwUNO1iTC65OHz0XirGohPUOsc0SEMtpm+4zfYG 7G8p35MK0h9gpwgGMG0j0mZX4RDjuywC88i1VxCwMWGaZRlUrPXkC3nqDDRcPtuEGpncWhAV Qt2ZqeyITv9KCUmDntmXLPe6vEXtOfI9Z3HeqeI8OkGwXpotVobgLa/mVmFj6EALDzj7HC2u tfgxECBJddmcDInrvGgTkZtXEVbyLQuiK20lJmYnmPWN8DXaVVaQ4XP/lXUrzoEzuQENBFSN eRUBCACWmp+k6LkY4/ey7eA7umYVc22iyVqAEXmywDYzEjewYwRcjTrH/Nx1EqwjIDuW+BBE oMLRZOHCgmjo6HRmWIutcYVCt9ieokultkor9BBoQVPiI+Tp51Op02ifkGcrEQNZi7q3fmOt hFZwZ6NJnUbA2bycaKZ8oClvDCQj6AjEydBPnS73UaEoDsqsGVjZwChfOMg5OyFm90QjpIw8 m0uDVcCzKKfxq3T/z7tyRgucIUe84EzBuuJBESEjK/hF0nR2LDh1ShD29FWrFZSNVVCVu1UY ZLAayf8oKKHHpM+whfjEYO4XsDpV4zQ15A+D15HRiHR6Adf4PDtPM1DCwggjABEBAAGJAR8E GAECAAkFAlSNeRUCGwwACgkQ7iZktA5Y2kPGEwf/WNjTy3z74vLmHycVsFXXoQ8W1+858mRy Ad0a8JYzY3xB7CVtqI3Hy894Qcw4H6G799A1OL9B1EeA8Yj3aOz0NbUyf5GW+iotr3h8+KIC OYZ34/BQaOLzdvDNmRoGHn+NeTzhF7eSeiPKi2jex+NVodhjOVGXw8EhYGkeZLvynHEboiLM 4TbyPbVR9HsdVqKGVTDxKSE3namo3kvtY6syRFIiUz5WzJfYAuqbt6m3TxDEb8sA9pzaLuhm fnJRc12H5NVZEZmE/EkJFTlkP4wnZyOSf/r2/Vd0iHauBwv57cpY6HFFMe7rvK4s7ME5zctO Ely5C6NCu1ZaNtdUuqDSPA== Message-ID: <5fa34ffb-eee9-f1b8-8c4a-13a66548e247@ri.se> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:50:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: ri.se X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4a46c522-8160-4254-aa78-08d8064c016c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2020 16:51:18.6213 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 5a9809cf-0bcb-413a-838a-09ecc40cc9e8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: dwLI47smmqbmfWVikYSc7Sp5HfmKdslSC92bpALBxbED2H7xyZTaE0Upf8eY1ghmxVNBHWcPlbU+tbWRn/UZtw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1P189MB0495 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 16:51:27 -0000 --ggmq50x1OxXZvR4vpkODgaxmLNZvNQx18 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="26hoGYVxEzrrIEmCBWXVnitZ17BVpXNLG" --26hoGYVxEzrrIEmCBWXVnitZ17BVpXNLG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------094FCAD1799D443120923E98" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------094FCAD1799D443120923E98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen, I am also happy with this text. I support the WG moving forward. Best, /Marco On 2020-05-24 23:07, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Hi all, > > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) > > ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of > the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs > checking. (See below.) > > I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus > being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the > scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) > That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last > month. > > So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy > enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd > appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as > few changes as possible. > > This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough > consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a > call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have > to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that > would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. > > The scoping text added was: > > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. > > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 > > --=20 Marco Tiloca Ph.D., Senior Researcher RISE Research Institutes of Sweden Division ICT Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16 SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden) Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501 https://www.ri.se --------------094FCAD1799D443120923E98 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen,

I am also happy with this text. I support the WG moving forward.

Best,
/Marco

On 2020-05-24 23:07, Stephen Farrell wrote:
Hi all,

First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got
sidetracked by an unexpected project.)

ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of
the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs
checking. (See below.)

I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus
being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the
scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].)
That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last
month.

So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy
enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd
appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as
few changes as possible.

This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough
consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a
call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have
to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that
would mean that the WG is very badly stuck.

The scoping text added was:

   As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
   in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
   the unconstrained web.  In order to deliver a timely
   result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
   considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
   (by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
   Information about validity of a certificate may be
   omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
   links.  The case of transporting certificate validation
   information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
   phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
   existing standards and tools.

   A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
   inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
   having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
   to support the migration path described above.  The AKE
   needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
   initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
   additional cases.

Thanks,
Stephen.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-re=
qs-03
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1



--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www=
=2Eri.se
--------------094FCAD1799D443120923E98-- --26hoGYVxEzrrIEmCBWXVnitZ17BVpXNLG-- --ggmq50x1OxXZvR4vpkODgaxmLNZvNQx18 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEOEo4cV326Z7GypVg7iZktA5Y2kMFAl7VMeEACgkQ7iZktA5Y 2kNX1wgAoTImGCKa66iepm6zVLpjS/AEU1VRWoH9EBIqKqgO8YMJXpSwcz00qLRH DOMs8a/J1XA8nxRNjC0PyoP6OjQX/CnCSLFDfJf6bIzNqEwcBvDcONv0wppbKPbK y/ZIDIZ2THvdV78WWoDhyNHzWh+eothJO6C8nLCAqjHH1Z2IAUkenjhgc3pGwrw1 iLjQKgWPiqJFFTLvNg0Tol4aQB/nuN/uk1M/AYYjPWlenuFyx+C/MBUM4X3P1Aj4 0sALmapue4xRjr9sOsK++pRTwdZsEOW4BzT70h3cruhz792Ae49Cn30E5DjpkOza 5EE2sDYkMwXLrvTs+ilICctcACIC9w== =C9XA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ggmq50x1OxXZvR4vpkODgaxmLNZvNQx18-- From nobody Mon Jun 1 12:27:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717F73A14E4 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XJVp_qvyH1_G for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD2393A14E3 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4B738A7A for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id hJNiXKlDQ_Ca for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F7338A45 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAB2478 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:27:23 -0400 (EDT) To: lake@ietf.org References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> From: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <2c4e5358-f6a0-388f-756d-70542849b6a6@sandelman.ca> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 15:27:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:27:34 -0000 On 2020-05-24 5:07 p.m., Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi all, > > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) .. > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. Hi, RPK by value and certificate by reference are precisely this use case that comes from 6tisch/zerotouch constrained enrollment. It is on the 802.15.4 links that the interop events I was part of in 2019 experienced significant challenges with other AKEs. From nobody Mon Jun 1 14:22:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130AC3A157F for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.076 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mGu1F-_Qp0G for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 745173A138C for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id j189so2685073oih.10 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:cc; bh=d8nUI3Q5VB4lqqTtg1fD0hcjWXg6jv305mwbrhULc60=; b=FSju9WJsZwBTC4Iqom0Kq3pQzbClGhbLfu+hJeOekXil2SrQ5v/eab2lQY3r47T8af QC9PbhbAb3FKeOWQKouXt0R56EUoY5Xar3NMWc0BnYnGAN7FILJzGdrzbJ2+euaME8vF CMlgusRwpyL3zrW0QNxueRRo9DKlp1ubKukum8ZV1g5msj3gSpIFrMfDg0YrlwN/bvmF WxYEzXcOXXdCGPGPRldxuxg4tIekSV2o8LcjsTqFCx2/CxoFu8tgsWOjeC1cpqzi3UJH 3VCXoFGMy6JtmD0zt/EPuxtfB9shGGdnKksEpMuyLQzTR/XjZfyQS+SO58bYuYBzfnTc CIsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:cc; bh=d8nUI3Q5VB4lqqTtg1fD0hcjWXg6jv305mwbrhULc60=; b=I0kp+UnSLOB1nM6kRFPw8sz/QNPZdQO75VoeQ4surTfcv8dyok8XF8vtCKvvWi5bBE +F3LqqxMu27fsAYxIeykkpm+jsGXUBe6chN1onKTjilhw1Ky2FzIxS83Z+pHVn0sXylV uXogKC/Do5gXVcBBPQo0RRgznefKcvH9m9inmM4JQl5Cgh0KjZ+2ycqnalZ+jmX+bXnb jOgBCIOsHE0tuN+IBjyIjqt2Y/X/QKHBvkMvFKo+iD8yTCeg4K1iqSPP7W34RfoJGyhZ icD8RVJWI3IkIyJR5SIUK/+jXDCRYCDVguk0CrHTIqn0wAxk9TNn5uoMH5FTsJdDUoO4 r30g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533GRgl3vt43hau0Fp2CeD32YN2c0jujPo2vDHy8sdcUIfjigpQd c1VcSbrGxS4kHzBggIrT8facv2CcigAvb9xobq52q0qChm8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwcdC1tZ1MzOelHsQ+TJEUZD+UbcSzwMh6cymFQN1Pn2FnUZAb2ivsQXgu6P0Ib9xbqqzz836muOo5PoduwLXE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:62c5:: with SMTP id w188mr774530oib.119.1591046529373; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 14:22:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> <0235d569-b6b4-1096-446e-759a03623ec2@um.es> In-Reply-To: From: Shahid Raza Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 23:21:58 +0200 Message-ID: Cc: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000345dbf05a70c635e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 21:22:12 -0000 --000000000000345dbf05a70c635e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen, I also support this requirement document go forward. I work on lightweight PKI for IoT (enrollment, CBOR certs, and to-be-submitted revocation), and plan to integrate our work with the proposed LAKE solutions. Best, Shahid Raza Head of Cybersecurity @ RISE Associate Professor, Uppsala University On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 14:13, Ivaylo Petrov wrote: > Hello Stephen, > > I am also happy with this text and I support the working group moving > forward in the proposed way. > > Best regards, > Ivaylo > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 9:51 AM Eduardo Ingles (UM) > wrote: > >> Hi Stephen, >> >> I'm happy with this text. >> I support the working group moving forward. >> >> Regards, >> Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s. >> El 24/05/2020 a las 23:07, Stephen Farrell escribi=C3=B3: >> >> Hi all, >> >> First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got >> sidetracked by an unexpected project.) >> >> ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of >> the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs >> checking. (See below.) >> >> I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus >> being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the >> scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) >> That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last >> month. >> >> So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy >> enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd >> appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as >> few changes as possible. >> >> This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough >> consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a >> call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have >> to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that >> would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. >> >> The scoping text added was: >> >> As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse >> in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of >> the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely >> result, there is a need to initially focus on what is >> considered most important at the time of writing: RPK >> (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. >> Information about validity of a certificate may be >> omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained >> links. The case of transporting certificate validation >> information over the AKE may be specified in the initial >> phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches >> existing standards and tools. >> >> A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be >> inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without >> having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, >> to support the migration path described above. The AKE >> needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the >> initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for >> additional cases. >> >> Thanks, >> Stephen. >> >> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 >> [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 >> >> >> -- >> Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s S=C3=A1nchezeduardo.ingles@um..es >> >> Department of Information and Communication Engineering >> Faculty of Computer Science >> University of Murcia >> 30100 Murcia, Spain >> >> -- >> Lake mailing list >> Lake@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >> > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --000000000000345dbf05a70c635e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stephen,

<= div dir=3D"auto">I also support this requirement document go forward. I wor= k on lightweight PKI for IoT (enrollment, CBOR certs, and to-be-submitted r= evocation), and plan to integrate our work with =C2=A0the proposed LAKE sol= utions.=C2=A0

Best,
Shahid Raza
Head of Cybersecurity= @ RISE=C2=A0
Associate Professor, Uppsala Universit= y


On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 14:13, Ivaylo Petro= v <ivaylo@ackl.io> wrote:
Hello=C2=A0Stephen,

I am also happy with this tex= t and I support the working group moving forward in the proposed way.
=

Best regards,
Ivaylo
=
=
<= /div>


On Mon, Jun 1, 202= 0 at 9:51 AM Eduardo Ingles (UM) <eduardo.ingles@um.es> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi Stephen,

I'm happy with this text.
I support the working group moving forward.

Regards,
Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s.

El 24/05/2020 a las 23:07, Stephen Farrell escribi=C3=B3:
Hi all,

First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got
sidetracked by an unexpected project.)

ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of
the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs
checking. (See below.)

I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus
being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the
scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].)
That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last
month.

So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy
enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd
appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as
few changes as possible.

This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough
consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a
call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have
to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that
would mean that the WG is very badly stuck.

The scoping text added was:

   As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
   in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
   the unconstrained web.  In order to deliver a timely
   result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
   considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
   (by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
   Information about validity of a certificate may be
   omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
   links.  The case of transporting certificate validation
   information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
   phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
   existing standards and tools.

   A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
   inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
   having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
   to support the migration path described above.  The AKE
   needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
   initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
   additional cases.

Thanks,
Stephen.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-ietf-lake-reqs-03
[2] https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1


--=20
Eduardo Ingl=C3=A9s S=C3=A1nchez
eduardo.ingles@um..es

Department of Information and Communication Engineering
Faculty of Computer Science
University of Murcia
30100 Murcia, Spain
--
Lake mailing list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
--000000000000345dbf05a70c635e-- From nobody Mon Jun 1 18:19:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233A13A07B3 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ibQVdg68og7g for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 981683A07AE for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id s1so10565415ljo.0 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 18:19:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QSTsCX+bpD4mn9DrrlaszHc/ePx+FqmemcjjS5yxSVs=; b=xGcaAVVKnNELbF5QFZ6JULklgehN7bfV4b8gZ1YSNYI4DcIoIfz5Egocf4l1g6diYo 6IWkkY3Walgx9MnH/s0m3Ln/CLWZApRwe7/4T31EtN5sbabBixQRkQrFkcw/cwQIM220 h4Dsw+S+Zsiy7n3pjdwD1lrPyrjTIZ6SeRd/m/IdhA0vhefCGZVKB0QYKOgm8yEOnFwJ ckyaKSGGOUeuneO9LX3XewmdiPDqmDDBIAzWxE2UFrH4QvvGGBbRFI7bhvqLdB/9tU/o zrjIKiQE+hMn8L6JorH7DbfgNkBMrGhTTkAtBl+yq95STShKM4VPw9cukGtPbXKBfVzp i8Kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QSTsCX+bpD4mn9DrrlaszHc/ePx+FqmemcjjS5yxSVs=; b=F/Zqp7pdm2rlLHiJ4cHHOEVB0W7QzXimufYBmSq7KuRBzhcElT96fdxUyYSg4rIiUa UjAtjSl+YFvNQWkqqaNVTDuaLVm56uitYAr8iPKXidL5m4JMZ+Wl6atTQf82D7aElr5+ H/Xp7NoFtK0kxQVM5cFaSS69+rvJMBlcuh5mIPnFxbkv2H1x7V74aRQ5lIl50ZnWL/TS FxAY/bbd8d6/XEND9rOFTfCxTb+wo8lsCZXaD5zC1XUCs6k0eBgJdqz4BktDjNBQjs/w fye205BVHtYlMfYAH119eHTr2t1WuO8HG6RfyGLeR3LPNwAv99TTMgwxb0UtIxrzGros Ph+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WWSuAiZR0jgaF1GjkCLU4zA0YZFri8osGihO3jfuzUhW3tpGx VA7h0twBg3a9ZtsHI9q8a7tcKPhtTRk0nsDGDpIvVFCcsOthrg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzE+sXROXsKHxMMDAGx2hQyR/cNeczGHPF9Sj/+fVJckEOzS+toTbUb7FXxkSqkOV37ZOs9eZzIqSmwkwUxQVg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8897:: with SMTP id k23mr11795049lji.184.1591060753527; Mon, 01 Jun 2020 18:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <3ca570db-8509-04cf-1878-291b28e00842@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2020 18:18:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "lake@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000007c9bd05a70fb3ca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 01:19:19 -0000 --00000000000007c9bd05a70fb3ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:08 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi all, > > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) > > ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of > the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs > checking. (See below.) > > I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus > being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the > scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) > That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last > month. > > So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy > enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd > appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as > few changes as possible. > > This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough > consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a > call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have > to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that > would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. > > The scoping text added was: > > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. > > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. > Stephen It's not clear how to read this in the context of other parts of the document, for instance: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2 which says: In order to allow for these different schemes, the AKE must support PSK- (shared between two nodes), RPK- and certificate-based authentication. These are also the schemes for which CoAP is designed (see Section 9 of [RFC7252] ). How is one supposed to interpret this text? -Ekr > Thanks, > Stephen. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 > > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --00000000000007c9bd05a70fb3ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:08 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hi all,

First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got
sidetracked by an unexpected project.)

ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of
the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs
checking. (See below.)

I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus
being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the
scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].)
That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last
month.

So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy
enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd
appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as
few changes as possible.

This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough
consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a
call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have
to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that
would mean that the WG is very badly stuck.

The scoping text added was:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the unconstrained web.=C2=A0 In order to deliver a timely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Information about validity of a certificate may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
=C2=A0 =C2=A0links.=C2=A0 The case of transporting certificate validation =C2=A0 =C2=A0information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0existing standards and tools.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to support the migration path described above.=C2=A0 The AKE =C2=A0 =C2=A0needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional cases.

Stephen<= /div>

It's not clear how to read this in the context= of other parts of
which says:

   In order to allow for these different schemes, the=
 AKE must support
   PSK- (shared between two nodes), RPK- and certificate-based
   authentication.  These are also the schemes for which CoAP is
   designed (see =
Section=C2=A09 of [RFC7252]).

How is one supposed to interpret th=
is text?

-Ekr
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multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000071509805a7194992" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] FW: 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 12:45:52 -0000 --00000000000071509805a7194992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 12:15 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > > > > > *From: *Lake on behalf of Eric Rescorla < > ekr@rtfm.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, 2 June 2020 at 03:19 > *To: *Stephen Farrell > *Cc: *"lake@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2:08 PM Stephen Farrell > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got > sidetracked by an unexpected project.) > > ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of > the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs > checking. (See below.) > > I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus > being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the > scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].) > That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last > month. > > So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy > enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd > appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as > few changes as possible. > > This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough > consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a > call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have > to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that > would mean that the WG is very badly stuck. > > The scoping text added was: > > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. > > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. > > > > Stephen > > > > It's not clear how to read this in the context of other parts of > > the document, for instance: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2 > > which says: > > > > In order to allow for these different schemes, the AKE must support > > PSK- (shared between two nodes), RPK- and certificate-based > > authentication. These are also the schemes for which CoAP is > > designed (see Section 9 of [RFC7252] ). > > How is one supposed to interpret this text? > > > > > > [GS] Since OSCORE is an extension to CoAP it is expected to support the s= chemes for which CoAP is designed. But in the discussion following the virt= ual IETF 107 LAKE WG meeting we restricted the initial focus, leading to th= e addition of section 2.2.1 and the following text in the paragraph after t= he one you quoted: > > > > =E2=80=9DIn order to provide a clear initial effort, Section 2.2.1 > > lists a set of credential types of immediate relevance; the mechanism for > selecting credential scheme is presumed to enable future extensibility if > needed.=E2=80=9D > > > > The ability to extend beyond the initial focus is also repeated in the te= xt > from Section 2.2.1 which Stephen quoted in his mail: > > > > =E2=80=9DA subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be inevitabl= e to > maintain a homogenous deployment without having to implement a mix of AKE > protocols, for example, to support the migration path described above.=E2= =80=9D > Yes, my point is that these three paragraphs together contradict each other. One says the AKE MUST support PSK and the other says it's not part of the initial focus. Does that mean that the AKE as published will or will not support PSK? -Ekr > > > -Ekr > > > > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03 > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2.1 > > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > > --00000000000071509805a7194992 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 12:15 AM G=C3= =B6ran Selander <goran.se= lander@ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Lake <lake-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tuesday, 2 June 2020 at 03:19
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: "lake@ie= tf.org" <lak= e@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 2= :08 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hi all,

First: my apologies for taking so long on this. (I got
sidetracked by an unexpected project.)

ISTM we have pretty good, if rough, consensus on enough of
the text to proceed, but with one important part that needs
checking. (See below.)

I'd like to start a 1 week 2nd WGLC with the main focus
being to establish whether we have rough consensus on the
scoping text below. (Which can be see in context at [2].)
That text was the main outcome of our virtual meeting last
month.

So, please send mail to the list saying if you are happy
enough to proceed on this basis. If you are not, then I'd
appreciate if you could suggest alternate text with as
few changes as possible.

This 2nd WGLC closes on June 1st. If I see rough
consensus to proceed at that point, I'll plan to start a
call for adoption for the edhoc draft. If not, we'll have
to discuss how to proceed with our AD, as I think that
would mean that the WG is very badly stuck.

The scoping text added was:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the unconstrained web.=C2=A0 In order to deliver a timely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Information about validity of a certificate may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
=C2=A0 =C2=A0links.=C2=A0 The case of transporting certificate validation =C2=A0 =C2=A0information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0existing standards and tools.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to support the migration path described above.=C2=A0 The AKE =C2=A0 =C2=A0needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional cases.

=C2=A0

Stephen

=C2=A0

It's not clear how to= read this in the context of other parts of

which says:=

=C2=A0

 =C2=A0=C2=A0In order to allow for these different schemes, t=
he AKE must support
=C2=A0=C2=A0 PSK- (shared between two nodes), RPK- and certif=
icate-based
=C2=A0=C2=A0 authentication.=C2=A0 These are also the schemes=
 for which CoAP is
=C2=A0=C2=A0 designed (se=
e Section=C2=A09 of [RFC7252]).
How is one supposed to interpret this text?
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[GS] Since OSCORE is an extension to CoAP it is expected=
 to support the schemes for which CoAP is designed. But in the discussion f=
ollowing the virtual IETF 107 LAKE WG meeting we restricted the initial foc=
us, leading to the addition of section 2.2.1 and the following text in the paragraph after the one you quote=
d: 

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9DIn order to pro= vide a clear initial effort, Section 2.2.1 lists a set of credential types of = immediate relevance; the mechanism for selecting credential scheme is presu= med to enable future extensibility if needed.=E2=80=9D=

=C2=A0

The ability to extend beyond th= e initial focus is also repeated in the text from Section 2.2.1 which Stephen quoted in= his mail:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9DA subsequent ex= tension beyond the initial focus may be inevitable to maintain a homogenous= deployment without having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example= , to support the migration path described above.=E2=80= =9D


Yes, my point is that these three paragraphs together contradict each oth= er. One says the AKE MUST support PSK and the other says it's not part = of the initial focus. Does that mean that the AKE as published will or will= not support PSK?

-Ekr


=C2=A0

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-0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <10CCD348-10E6-400A-81E3-253475C97250@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <10CCD348-10E6-400A-81E3-253475C97250@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 09:36:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= Cc: Stephen Farrell , "lake@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000507c1605a71c87e2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 16:37:39 -0000 --000000000000507c1605a71c87e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 6:48 AM G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > > > *From: *Eric Rescorla > > > The scoping text added was: > > As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse > in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of > the unconstrained web. In order to deliver a timely > result, there is a need to initially focus on what is > considered most important at the time of writing: RPK > (by reference and value) and certificate by reference. > Information about validity of a certificate may be > omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained > links. The case of transporting certificate validation > information over the AKE may be specified in the initial > phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches > existing standards and tools. > > A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be > inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without > having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, > to support the migration path described above. The AKE > needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the > initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for > additional cases. > > > > Stephen > > > > It's not clear how to read this in the context of other parts of > > the document, for instance: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-03#section-2.2 > > which says: > > > > In order to allow for these different schemes, the AKE must support > > PSK- (shared between two nodes), RPK- and certificate-based > > authentication. These are also the schemes for which CoAP is > > designed (see Section 9 of [RFC7252] ). > > How is one supposed to interpret this text? > > > > > > [GS] Since OSCORE is an extension to CoAP it is expected to support the s= chemes for which CoAP is designed. But in the discussion following the virt= ual IETF 107 LAKE WG meeting we restricted the initial focus, leading to th= e addition of section 2.2.1 and the following text in the paragraph after t= he one you quoted: > > > > =E2=80=9DIn order to provide a clear initial effort, Section 2.2.1 > > lists a set of credential types of immediate relevance; the mechanism for > selecting credential scheme is presumed to enable future extensibility if > needed.=E2=80=9D > > > > The ability to extend beyond the initial focus is also repeated in the > text from Section 2.2.1 which Stephen quoted in his mail: > > > > =E2=80=9DA subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be inevitabl= e to > maintain a homogenous deployment without having to implement a mix of AKE > protocols, for example, to support the migration path described above.=E2= =80=9D > > > > Yes, my point is that these three paragraphs together contradict each > other. One says the AKE MUST support PSK and the other says it's not part > of the initial focus. Does that mean that the AKE as published will or wi= ll > not support PSK? > > > > > > [GS] The AKE which we will start work on will not include the PSK ECHDE > variant. > I don't think this answers my question, which is not about where we start work, but what is an acceptable output of this WG. To restate it more crisply: would an AKE which was extensible but did not include PSK be conformant with the requirements? It seems to me that the document is unclear on this point. -Ekr The process for how to include that variant is as far as I know not > defined, but it must be possible to extend to that variant at a later sta= ge > given that the appropriate analysis etc. is made. > > > > > > G=C3=B6ran > > > > > > > > > > > --000000000000507c1605a71c87e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 6:48 AM G=C3= =B6ran Selander <goran.se= lander@ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com><= u>


The scoping text added was:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As illustrated above, the setting is much more diverse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in terms of credentials and trust anchors than that of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the unconstrained web.=C2=A0 In order to deliver a timely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0result, there is a need to initially focus on what is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered most important at the time of writing: RPK
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(by reference and value) and certificate by reference.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Information about validity of a certificate may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0omitted from the AKE if available over unconstrained
=C2=A0 =C2=A0links.=C2=A0 The case of transporting certificate validation =C2=A0 =C2=A0information over the AKE may be specified in the initial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0phase if there is a lightweight solution that matches
=C2=A0 =C2=A0existing standards and tools.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A subsequent extension beyond the initial focus may be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0having to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to support the migration path described above.=C2=A0 The AKE =C2=A0 =C2=A0needs to make clear the scope of cases analysed in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0initial phase, and that a new analysis is required for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional cases.

=C2=A0

Stephen

=C2=A0

It's not clear how to read this in the context of other parts of=

which says:

=C2=A0

 =C2=A0=C2=A0In order to allow for these different schemes, t=
he AKE must support
=C2=A0=C2=A0 PSK- (shared between two nodes), RPK- and certif=
icate-based
=C2=A0=C2=A0 authentication.=C2=A0 These are also the schemes=
 for which CoAP is
=C2=A0=C2=A0 designed (se=
e Section=C2=A09 of [RFC7252]).
How is one supposed to interpret this text?<=
/u>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[GS] Since OSCORE is an exten=
sion to CoAP it is expected to support the schemes for which CoAP is design=
ed. But in the discussion following the virtual IETF 107 LAKE WG meeting we=
 restricted the initial focus, leading to the addition of section 2.2.1 and=
 the following text in the paragraph after the one you quoted: 

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9DIn order to provide a clear initial ef= fort, Section 2.2.1 lists a set of credential types of immediate relevance; t= he mechanism for selecting credential scheme is presumed to enable future e= xtensibility if needed.=E2=80=9D<= /p>

=C2=A0

The ability to extend beyond the initial focus is also= repeated in the text from Section 2.2.1 which Stephen quoted in his mail:<= /span>

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9DA subsequent extension beyond the init= ial focus may be inevitable to maintain a homogenous deployment without hav= ing to implement a mix of AKE protocols, for example, to support the migrat= ion path described above.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Yes, my point is that the= se three paragraphs together contradict each other. One says the AKE MUST s= upport PSK and the other says it's not part of the initial focus. Does = that mean that the AKE as published will or will not support PSK?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[GS] The AKE which we will star= t work on will not include the PSK ECHDE variant.


I don't think this answ= ers my question, which is not about where we start work, but what is an acc= eptable output of this WG.

To restate it more cris= ply: would an AKE which was extensible but did not include PSK be conforman= t with the requirements? It seems to me that the document is unclear on thi= s point.

-Ekr

The process for how to include that variant is as f= ar as I know not defined, but it must be possible to extend to that variant= at a later stage given that the appropriate analysis etc. is made.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

G=C3=B6ran

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1591403732; bh=lvKUrCKYQV/NnWZlC2j8hInGyN+v64PnJFuyUT4VxBY=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=AMNOTw9ldFdKNxm3OGpsvY8ebYlvUAbciukR3SlUmOitWm42SyG4nEtSkw25suLrR xZ3fZv2QMLtJnJGzjjYSs07iX05SEWQ1BLkkfjX9AImXe0TBSLvXPO6aLnOXHS10AC 8Js6svwLq51aqawTjgLhIYCKxgC4J82QUAtp1pDc= To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , Eric Rescorla Cc: "lake@ietf.org" References: <10CCD348-10E6-400A-81E3-253475C97250@ericsson.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO 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multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u2CSJMCLgjFobbOdGmOUvUEvXgeSOZ54A" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:35:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --u2CSJMCLgjFobbOdGmOUvUEvXgeSOZ54A Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AI6zEzEKH0uQstsFMtBiSx1VIDQmAoUba"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Selander?= , Eric Rescorla Cc: "lake@ietf.org" Message-ID: <6708d1b0-5b4b-42b3-27f1-b1db2f67a346@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Lake] 1 week 2nd WGLC on requirements and scoping text References: <10CCD348-10E6-400A-81E3-253475C97250@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: --AI6zEzEKH0uQstsFMtBiSx1VIDQmAoUba Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------39B85EB48BAB785B2F770D4C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------39B85EB48BAB785B2F770D4C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Thanks all for questions and the expressions of support and for the work that got us here. On 02/06/2020 18:33, G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > An AKE which is extensible but does not include PSK ECDHE would be > conformant with the requirements for the initial scope. As far as I > understood, the solution to the initial scope is intended to be a > milestone of this WG. I think it'd be good to embed the above in the document so we're clear. G=C3=B6ran - could you do that one way or another? (Just in case we forget or want to argue about it later:-) Other than that - I do see rough consensus that we have the requirements text sufficiently correct to proceed. It is clearly not a complete consensus, but I think we all knew that would be the outcome going in, and the objections I think have been considered here and/or mitigated via the adoption of cTLS in the TLS WG. That being so, I'll chat with my now no longer conflicted co-chair about next steps, but as I said before I expect the next step is we'll ask if the WG want to adopt edhoc. Expect that to kick off next Monday. If anyone has any alternative next step (e.g. another I-D to suggest we consider) then now is a really good time to say that and later would be an awfully less good time. 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06:33:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lake] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:33:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange WG of the IETF. Title : Requirements for a Lightweight AKE for OSCORE Authors : Malisa Vucinic Goeran Selander John Preuss Mattsson Dan Garcia-Carrillo Filename : draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2020-06-08 Abstract: This document compiles the requirements for a lightweight authenticated key exchange protocol for OSCORE. This draft has completed a working group last call (WGLC) in the LAKE working group. Post-WGLC, the requirements are considered sufficiently stable for the working group to proceed with its work. It is not currently planned to publish this draft as an RFC. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lake-reqs/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 8 06:54:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E5B3A0819 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2Ti2z6MSj76 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD0F83A0815 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,487,1583190000"; d="scan'208,217";a="453568127" Received: from adsl-46-161-115026.crnagora.net (HELO [192.168.100.4]) ([46.161.115.26]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 08 Jun 2020 15:54:38 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AE3317BC-2DB1-4E88-B7F1-7B74690C4A8C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:54:37 +0200 To: lake@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:54:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AE3317BC-2DB1-4E88-B7F1-7B74690C4A8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are = proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group = is chartered to work on. Given: - the LAKE working group charter, - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for = draft-selander-lake-edhoc, - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be = further developed, - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE = working group,=20 we are now launching a call for adoption for = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01 = . Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and = indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working = group document. The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. Your LAKE chairs.= --Apple-Mail=_AE3317BC-2DB1-4E88-B7F1-7B74690C4A8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the = requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of = the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. = Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time = for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS = draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration = of the LAKE working group, 

we are now = launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.
Please reply to this thread whether you = support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this = draft becomes a working group document.

The call for adoption ends on June = 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE = chairs.
= --Apple-Mail=_AE3317BC-2DB1-4E88-B7F1-7B74690C4A8C-- From nobody Mon Jun 8 11:37:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietf.org Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98303A0EBC; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:37:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: lake-chairs@ietf.org, kaduk@mit.edu, lake@ietf.org, malisa.vucinic@inria.fr X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.2.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159164145320.16585.721513826061919997@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 11:37:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lake] lake - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 108 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 18:37:34 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Malisa Vucinic, a Chair of the lake working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Mališa Vučinić Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 100 Minutes Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: homenet Technology Overlap: ace core 6tisch roll lpwan lwig cbor saag quic mls tls Key Participant Conflict: httpbis add People who must be present: Stephen Farrell Malisa Vucinic Benjamin Kaduk Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jun 8 13:58:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B603A1008 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWQYhDOW9Lyv for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19F283A1007 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A6338A0C; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id EQqfzTyrwIzd; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3DA7389FD; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43991240; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:58:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Futf-8=3FB=3FTWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=3D=3F=3D?= cc: lake@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 20:58:55 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: > we are now launching a call for adoption for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01 > . > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and > indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working > group document. I support this document. I have read it several times, and I will review it. I am also partially through an implementation. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl7epogACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUoeAf/aBMtusNRN0Vh+77xJ2T3D/ihvZNGl/Jkw1rLtEfrUOOqh25lrFPoOHNa T0pizMwGG0W/jzKyZgNUkEg8rPPpT8m2rxjmtLPXA0VaOAdVcQ2ThIUhuDdWBmRL lHreNlc30ESxzIbthg2tO/CRRI4G1UQgj4Zx2NURmKz6Uq/vFIjsmd/f1ed82N6A KA4zftiuNYov2pSa2KZNtk6/JVfQtsoP3i+0BkK0iEiddR6NDDFhJCAKDRD3uJmY SsLUHTj3xP7iV8xXM6C4XgRnP7+VmRS3xPyqFTQUi5E9ZWGrKF/AODxNEYcc3TZq 1dBjFBUGKJxSg231b6UzdeMsZQIvWw== =U0Cu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jun 9 04:57:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDAB3A0810 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VjRjdWgC0UI2 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prometheus.amsuess.com (prometheus.amsuess.com [5.9.147.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD97A3A080E for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bd]) by prometheus.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BCDE40005; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:57:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bf]) by poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AF8D7; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hephaistos.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:829a:dddf:b208:1526]) by poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5E2F963; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1758269 invoked by uid 1000); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:57:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:57:13 +0200 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: =?utf-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Cc: lake@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200609115713.GA1661917@hephaistos.amsuess.com> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:57:21 -0000 --mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mali=C5=A1a, hello LAKE group, On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 03:54:37PM +0200, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wro= te: > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and > indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working > group document. I've read the -00 and skimmed -01 with special focus on the changed sections. I especially appreciate the addtition of the repudiation paragraph in the security considerations. The document might need some updating with respect to the requirements document, especially in terminology (took me a bit to find that for "certificates by refernce", I'll need to look for 'x5u' in there), but that puts it at a stage where I would prefer to have this as a working group document. I'm looking forward to extending the two OSCORE implementations (aiocoap for large systems, libOSCORE for constrained devices) that I've written to use this, and to experimentation with it over the various links CoAP can be used on. Kind regards Christian --=20 Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is why it is called the present. -- ancient saying --mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAl7feRMACgkQOY0REtOk veGXkhAAvGyIYM8DSXPvjeTPjZ3XAVWjlSnd7GwAHfNRbpui1DbUMeTVEcmpphh3 zsH6pKaCiImAFtA1NoIZAOuC91aRr7l1Yu2MelIIRyAuPHqGl2GqNs8QVtdb/T6i O40Ujqv0jhb9f/CryVPziOfZnCT6m/AA3uLS0oer3aKI3yNw5xskmAGHBkHm7xF5 JnjAg9wrXY+NoXsQz0lorky/nmGWsH7BCGjbd60SRdWB9qm3w2+BrYF5OqbyBZZG BG34KS3WmzlOyfnfTlDa3p8BahgRy0ps1AKVMOjYkjIVKQziTMpJtxW3en3YTAdG 9aJpuoEw4GO1wYGFdhfvH3X8dpfa/pejeLSxhO4U9tEUGM+uDAeGnntWPVtoqtD2 JW5ZUV/Z1dCoxIDI0f82VRsqgQH8Ut27dkOCP6E2OMNyOwEvhsOKjV0vatpkwvDA sjV/sRjwNFKSrTq/6N2W7gREsmbH2iaYsy7VFVCX5KWz8mvlZGV8imSKMF1efir8 nfLtanwR4euXFEadSO2NGIPFlhUkBgoA40sFKDaImGGVR+xhzQfy5ZwILD5RTdJl xygQmlO4UEAt/yzCT/cOiFyNgdJv9HdUENRz9x6LrYRpgpr5d6a00ZCY+2YRQQ5z xuTjikmk0fOXVAJkjZvVUv7ad1wPfhf1lIJoNn4JZLksKG2M+lE= =DyGJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mP3DRpeJDSE+ciuQ-- From nobody Wed Jun 10 08:44:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4DE3A060A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.094 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bbhmail.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJAze8FrN8N9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0011.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7FDF3A085A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 08:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay08.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0432F1803269F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:44:52 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bbhmail.nl; h= mime-version:content-type:date:from:to:subject:reply-to :message-id; s=key; bh=iRkaZAFyV2MKNamneJvuGuZithKG7CxRfanes1ub4 3A=; b=VKB7SO01yjESuhOmYS0+rf491CfxfB8jrDIgZvD1R766D1wc4P8HL+GKs Yk8VntSZcwClzhpsbu4nd/KfjLnzrqDQhxWwEKoVWkLYXPxrgrLU3lNxeyASOlBw AquQnESyLxAy7cOdXWkg4lNy149vpByiqbafvE4GRWxqjavSZo= X-Session-Marker: 73746F6B636F6E73406262686D61696C2E6E6C X-Spam-Summary: 50, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, stokcons@bbhmail.nl, , RULES_HIT:41:72:152:355:379:582:800:877:962:967:973:983:988:989:1152:1189:1208:1221:1260:1263:1313:1314:1345:1381:1431:1436:1437:1516:1517:1518:1534:1540:1561:1575:1588:1589:1592:1594:1711:1714:1730:1776:1792:2525:2561:2564:2682:2685:2693:2829:2859:2901:2933:2937:2939:2942:2945:2947:2951:2954:3022:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3622:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3871:3934:3936:3938:3941:3944:3947:3950:3953:3956:3959:4250:4321:4659:5007:6261:6298:6659:7901:7904:8603:9015:9025:9177:10004:10214:10400:10848:11232:11658:11914:12043:12109:12114:12555:12679:12895:12986:13071:13139:13160:13161:13199:13229:13846:14096:14180:14181:14721:21060:21080:21212:21433:21451:21625:21691:21939:30048:30054:30090, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:1, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: force97_2c182da26dcc X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 2568 Received: from mail.bbhmail.nl (imap-ext [216.40.42.5]) (Authenticated sender: webmail@stokcons@bbhmail.nl) by omf13.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:44:51 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_4a0614869422feaf5d0a80fd7bd9834f" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:44:51 +0200 From: Peter van der Stok To: lake@ietf.org Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4-rc2 Message-ID: <5ee2152df28293b4d3ee1f6d0d96a604@bbhmail.nl> X-Sender: stokcons@bbhmail.nl Organization: vanderstok consultancy X-Originating-IP: [5.206.216.229] Archived-At: Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:44:56 -0000 --=_4a0614869422feaf5d0a80fd7bd9834f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed HI Lake, Curently, I implemented oscore to access OCF devices. Using EDhoc to create ephemeral connections will be the next logical step. My intention is to implement EDHOC in C and I therefore fully support the adoption of this document. Peter -- Peter van der Stok vanderstok consultancy mailto: consultancy@vanderstok.org, stokcons@bbhmail.nl www: www.vanderstok.org [1] tel NL: +31(0)492474673 F: +33(0)966015248 Links: ------ [1] http://www.vanderstok.org --=_4a0614869422feaf5d0a80fd7bd9834f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 HI Lake,

Curently, I implemented oscore to access OCF devices.Using EDhoc to create ephemeral connections will be the next logical st= ep.

My intention is to implement EDHOC in C and I therefore full= y support the adoption of this document.

Peter
--
= Peter van der Stok
vanderstok consultancy
mailto: consultancy@vanderstok.org, stokcons@bbhmail.nl
www: www= =2Evanderstok.org
tel NL: +31(0)492474673     = F: +33(0)966015248
--=_4a0614869422feaf5d0a80fd7bd9834f-- From nobody Wed Jun 10 16:52:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679873A15C1; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:52:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KwOv6WTiCvPb; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A47F3A15C2; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159164145320.16585.721513826061919997@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kxDPAXa5KFQl5OtYjHayyHGo0PIvo5ZHD" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] lake - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 108 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:52:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --kxDPAXa5KFQl5OtYjHayyHGo0PIvo5ZHD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Mcq5jCWMrdE8Jvgbg1hBcNAdEBTRto1Wu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: lake@ietf.org Cc: lake-chairs@ietf.org, kaduk@mit.edu, malisa.vucinic@inria.fr Message-ID: Subject: Re: lake - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 108 References: <159164145320.16585.721513826061919997@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159164145320.16585.721513826061919997@ietfa.amsl.com> --Mcq5jCWMrdE8Jvgbg1hBcNAdEBTRto1Wu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0D26251443B650407F1C5258" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0D26251443B650407F1C5258 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Given there's been an announcement of the intent to charge for remote registration for IETF108, but that other interim meetings do not attract such charges, please do let Mali=C5=A1a and I know if those fees pose a barrier to participation for you. Were that the case for a sufficiently interesting set of participants, I'd be happy to try help arrange our WG session a week or two away from the period when all of a sudden we are apparently required to pay to join a call without that having been debated by the IETF community. (You might get the correct impression I'm not impressed by that turn of events:-) Cheers, S. On 08/06/2020 19:37, IETF Meeting Session Request Tool wrote: >=20 >=20 > A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Malisa Vucinic= , a Chair of the lake working group. >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange > Area Name: Security Area > Session Requester: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 >=20 >=20 > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 100 Minutes > Number of Attendees: 50 > Conflicts to Avoid:=20 > Chair Conflict: homenet > Technology Overlap: ace core 6tisch roll lpwan lwig cbor saag quic mls= tls > Key Participant Conflict: httpbis add >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > People who must be present: > Stephen Farrell > Malisa Vucinic > Benjamin Kaduk >=20 > Resources Requested: >=20 > Special Requests: > =20 > --------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 --------------0D26251443B650407F1C5258 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" 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smtp.mailfrom=u-blox.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=u-blox.com; dkim=pass header.d=u-blox.com; arc=none From: Hari Vigneswaran To: "lake@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 Thread-Index: AdY/1E3CDikEU1nsSzS1JhcVLX3HxQ== Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:22:07 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=u-blox.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f11162ab-2baa-4b26-094e-08d80e020f28 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CWLP265MB0913: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 0431F981D8 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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IDzVmwPTkZaeZ2fsaNyKY9sSpeik+rNg3ml/iBZWfkqXFyrl+0KJIZd+J6a10Akm5Q7BQlJM5GO/eX4jGU4PTITiDzQcS9v+qmx2jrngFO4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CWLP265MB0913 X-OriginatorOrg: u-blox.com X-Assp-Version: 2.4.7(16004) on ASSP.nospam X-Assp-ID: ASSP.nospam 78129-13744 X-Assp-Session: 3A422B58 (mail 1) X-Assp-Original-Subject: Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-Assp-Client-TLS: yes X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.4 at buffalo X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:22:16 -0000 --_000_CWLP265MB03249EE5E5CEC5E259C0DE2DA3800CWLP265MB0324GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello LAKE WG, We, in u-blox, made a prototype implementation of OSCORE in our wireless co= mmunication products. We used OSCORE for E2E security from Bluetooth nodes = to a cloud server. More info on our web blog. We believe EDHOC is the next step for negotiating a key for OSCORE based co= mmunications in constrained devices. On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 03:54:37PM +0200, Mali=B9a Vu=E8ini=E6 wrote: > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and > indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working > group document. I support the adoption of draft-selander-lake-edhoc. BR, Hari --------------------- Hari Vigneswaran Security Lead Short Range Radio www.u-blox.com --_000_CWLP265MB03249EE5E5CEC5E259C0DE2DA3800CWLP265MB0324GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello LAKE WG,

We, in u-blox, made a prototype= implementation of OSCORE in our wireless communication products. We used O= SCORE for E2E security from Bluetooth nodes to a cloud server. More info on our web blog.

We believe EDHOC is the next st= ep for negotiating a key for OSCORE based communications in constrained dev= ices.

 

On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 03:5= 4:37PM +0200, Mali=B9a Vu=E8ini=E6 wrote:

> Please reply to this th= read whether you support the adoption, and

> indicate if you are rea= dy to review if this draft becomes a working

> group document.

I support the adoption of dr= aft-selander-lake-edhoc.

 

BR, Hari

 

---------------------

Hari Vigneswar= an

Security Lead = Short Range Radio

www.u-blox.com

--_000_CWLP265MB03249EE5E5CEC5E259C0DE2DA3800CWLP265MB0324GBRP_-- From nobody Thu Jun 11 06:37:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FEC3A0907 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=um.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7u_Vln7rlFV for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.puc.rediris.es (outbound7mad.lav.puc.rediris.es [192.187.24.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD60C3A08A7 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xenon41.um.es (xenon41.um.es [155.54.212.167]) by mx01.puc.rediris.es with ESMTP id 05BDbPK8014148-05BDbPK9014148 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:37:25 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xenon41.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90BE20313; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:37:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by antispam in UMU at xenon41.um.es Received: from xenon41.um.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (xenon41.um.es [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Q1IlqiO92GhH; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:37:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from MacBook-Pro-de-Dan.local (unknown [89.33.188.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: dan.garcia@um.es) by xenon41.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B2FC200B6; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:37:24 +0200 (CEST) Cc: dan.garcia@um.es To: lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: Dan Garcia Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:37:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9981481ED7E59B674BBFB7F4" Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: mx01.puc.rediris.es; spf=pass (rediris.es: domain of dan.garcia@um.es designates 155.54.212.167 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dan.garcia@um.es DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; d=um.es; s=DKIM; c=relaxed/relaxed; h=cc:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version:content-type; bh=1hnvi8cZeDsIG0kCsukf6/DjupH2tOeervE85XoQL2U=; b=PPxXH2Lhjd4W5IhiywKGzuHR4hIFHCRx1YivR7Bbs5XiDl4YcAnb6fI4J7fHkhRGTKqc00OsMQoO K4XXpSrtNktkV34zfOvX4G9XPJgLwEK8M5bwqYQQTssBD5pkarwlaWsFFTCzPjLiUkwgvoJzaDMJ Iz42QqHqsYPKq48VWxuYJRMche0QBPSqfWh2DWZKaApKBSqfcP2iyXVsxYgBOyDdyxnXG3IAMFov cjnKiDf0NhUeurDjUcuAqJMbsP6LZ2fxlFNcrjfqoTbJp6Ej+74Hq66U2T4UhT+2PRpsWjpYY1QY 4m0fIRNVjzbwlD/mu9cnit7gMJBK/vsZrfl1JQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:37:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9981481ED7E59B674BBFB7F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, I support the adoption of this document as wg document. We as a collaboration between Odin Solutions and the University of Murcia are involved in the development of EDHOC implementation and  OSCORE to be tested in different products of Odin Solutions. Our objective is to release open implementations when ready, following the current draft version. We see potential in EDHOC in different use cases and we intend to collaborate as we can. Best Regards. On 08/06/2020 15:54, Mališa Vučinić wrote: > Hi all, > > Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we > are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working > group is chartered to work on. Given: > > - the LAKE working group charter, > - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for > draft-selander-lake-edhoc, > - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be > further developed, > - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the > LAKE working group, > > we are now launching a call for adoption for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. > > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and > indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working > group document. > > The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. > > Your LAKE chairs. > --------------9981481ED7E59B674BBFB7F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello all,

I support the adoption of this document as wg document.

We as a collaboration between Odin Solutions and the University of Murcia are involved in the development of EDHOC implementation and  OSCORE to be tested in different products of Odin Solutions. Our objective is to release open implementations when ready, following the current draft version.

We see potential in EDHOC in different use cases and we intend to collaborate as we can.

Best Regards.


On 08/06/2020 15:54, Mališa Vučinić wrote:
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE working group, 

we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document.

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.

--------------9981481ED7E59B674BBFB7F4-- From nobody Thu Jun 11 20:49:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB3E3A0602 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 20:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=um.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v8NScFilh09f for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 20:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.puc.rediris.es (outbound7mad.lav.puc.rediris.es [192.187.24.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F20063A0593 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 20:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xenon44.um.es (xenon44.um.es [155.54.212.171]) by mx01.puc.rediris.es with ESMTP id 05C3nB3m018457-05C3nB3n018457 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:49:11 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xenon44.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDD92005E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:49:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by antispam in UMU at xenon44.um.es Received: from xenon44.um.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (xenon44.um.es [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 6hO_SAZs2Pnl for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:49:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.150] (unknown [83.143.108.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: eduardo.ingles) by xenon44.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DADF61FEE4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:49:10 +0200 (CEST) To: lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: "Eduardo Ingles (UM)" Message-ID: <40d7e4ec-5c9a-a5f8-e476-eae475ad7860@um.es> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:49:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EE06BB7D6CDDDE747D8219D6" Content-Language: es-ES Authentication-Results: mx01.puc.rediris.es; spf=pass (rediris.es: domain of eduardo.ingles@um.es designates 155.54.212.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eduardo.ingles@um.es DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; d=um.es; s=DKIM; c=relaxed/relaxed; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version:content-type; bh=A0MmECIMSqvFBV6j16SJywQedWtntIoQMHPof9OaEKk=; b=YiwgKunJM1pPAJ9eEFP2VIyqzMrnxCFn+oxZID3FxkyqIM4DCLygvq0umGuKwdUz/B/ROBiKi96Q MfvME9OrJKKvGiLAC3WtnUIeUtzvhA7Lbch2wkCwiWuCWAJK44kDO8heeoeNtQ8PfgXye/bsKnLu T14NOIa+aRWMbLNH60fNef347rKR/TgEvimupwWt37oNZ1OuFqJENCJ4LK7tv+Hq51P9KlOpcH6Y Oed1WkczOe9PaBvV0f7NKpuKSSutwCHLtxtqKrzrdt2VN4CkcL+z9mk/SyIkqRBnNI3udXpeqGC6 FYkEtGAC6BpKVPUyug2kKUiePqvevQsblOMPKg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:49:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EE06BB7D6CDDDE747D8219D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, LAKE WG, I am currently studying the use cases of EDHOC in IoT networks for my PhD. In particular, I am studying the role of EDHOC in its integration within the life cycle of IoT devices. EDHOC has some features that could be advantageous for IoT. Therefore, I look forward to the adoption of this document. Kind regards. El 11/06/2020 a las 15:37, Dan Garcia escribió: > > Hello all, > > I support the adoption of this document as wg document. > > We as a collaboration between Odin Solutions and the University of > Murcia are involved in the development of EDHOC implementation and  > OSCORE to be tested in different products of Odin Solutions. Our > objective is to release open implementations when ready, following the > current draft version. > > We see potential in EDHOC in different use cases and we intend to > collaborate as we can. > > Best Regards. > > > On 08/06/2020 15:54, Mališa Vučinić wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we >> are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working >> group is chartered to work on. Given: >> >> - the LAKE working group charter, >> - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for >> draft-selander-lake-edhoc, >> - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will >> be further developed, >> - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the >> LAKE working group, >> >> we are now launching a call for adoption for >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >> >> Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and >> indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working >> group document. >> >> The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >> >> Your LAKE chairs. >> > -- Eduardo Inglés Sánchez eduardo.ingles@um.es Department of Information and Communication Engineering Faculty of Computer Science University of Murcia 30100 Murcia, Spain --------------EE06BB7D6CDDDE747D8219D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello, LAKE WG,

I am currently studying the use cases of EDHOC in IoT networks for my PhD. In particular, I am studying the role of EDHOC in its integration within the life cycle of IoT devices.

EDHOC has some features that could be advantageous for IoT. Therefore, I look forward to the adoption of this document.

Kind regards.

El 11/06/2020 a las 15:37, Dan Garcia escribió:

Hello all,

I support the adoption of this document as wg document.

We as a collaboration between Odin Solutions and the University of Murcia are involved in the development of EDHOC implementation and  OSCORE to be tested in different products of Odin Solutions. Our objective is to release open implementations when ready, following the current draft version.

We see potential in EDHOC in different use cases and we intend to collaborate as we can.

Best Regards.


On 08/06/2020 15:54, Mališa Vučinić wrote:
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE working group, 

we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document.

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.


-- 
Eduardo Inglés Sánchez
eduardo.ingles@um.es

Department of Information and Communication Engineering
Faculty of Computer Science
University of Murcia
30100 Murcia, Spain
--------------EE06BB7D6CDDDE747D8219D6-- From nobody Sat Jun 13 13:28:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37793A00D2 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:28:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MZkEJynq6-Fp for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DDD73A00C9 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id j12so7356404lfh.0 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:28:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TukQHN++69lXteUbUSKwRg6WOU1SZslsbOgIDkNduhk=; b=ongRUvSJvlzBoFMs+vZkg2dWYDMPW8izE4nmjRFZyMbI5eDvjAlxoL/cmV8RZK0EQa aRh2E9sLYqwE8pwe36MHBgc+5NcAJwA7eLFxtmJe3KaUSR9SPucm921Pu2R14ZhRa7oQ q00owMamN5TyQETxvgaCtVsg0t5f8LRe2yyMU7X2mcZcS0QyDUALUwCvtWvVhq+iqkMh l7Td3U5pyqGer81lbJvr8A2mxg62yJPf0UBt0tl2zaoxOq3nmUl4eumnLbmplsNoXtwC eU90OAmi46/bDe58KYzX28rnTIpLUiLCfIEtLPeo/cy0emIxZ1Fr3kzgi1od5aJqcyQT /O3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TukQHN++69lXteUbUSKwRg6WOU1SZslsbOgIDkNduhk=; b=Dzz+c4MPaOGorlYY5MYT/HOzghxpx/gmeKsxuzCrL3n/k0wU+0cq+ftxVR+vFT7xSo LUxo4v5BS9di59Osz9ISZmjqj90PGuTIqJdt2pOuG1JBu3Vv4IumgjKKal6TQZWhlGS4 sLdtsVr+BlOz5MGDUyvbXFYY/NQhMWyWB7k1U74K1/YOUx/MMjMO94JwGFXKf6RaNNbG ULDr0ANWJHSMaei2eCzDzlnLSEsTlfJRaXm5+KAengqUKs6OC2tt2usEPh50Yc7vn4WF PysLOKHZE06kA5Qy00NaYrcmuY/mE9dGhiJRziDMUErNEdlCUGwTYTCWwgWP67iopldO V7gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZTS9rmx1QnIye3lRqXN6FrMHsEg4KZu/kdphdhjdj0d9RATFw 9b18SUE6l5938f+q8SwXk/6f/fTAbYiwIm021+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxi38sXwFlHxBkkW6acSeELXaaZGSugWhDo9RuuVWFh2IZvWv0J+l3br0Zb9hEuWeySLOLA5Aukh//ycWDBZUo= X-Received: by 2002:a19:f813:: with SMTP id a19mr9818730lff.212.1592080131401; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: Martin Disch Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 22:28:40 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Cc: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 20:28:57 -0000 On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:54 PM Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicat= e if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document= . As part of a thesis I built a proof-of-concept implementation of EDHOC in the Rust programming language available at https://github.com/martindisch/oscore. The naming of the repository is due to the subject being both EDHOC and OSCORE on embedded devices, but the following refers only to the EDHOC implementation. It's based on draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-14 and as such, sadly, outdated. Since it was just one part of the overall work, I only managed to implement the subset I needed, which is RPK and the signature-signature based scheme (corresponding to what draft-selander-lake-edhoc calls method 0). I also took some other shortcuts, such as not supporting auxiliary data. Fortunately, test vectors were about to be introduced just around the time I was working on it, so I've been able to successfully verify my implementation against them when John shared them with me for some preliminary testing. Since I didn't have any prior experience implementing this kind of software, I would definitely consider it more of an experiment, but it's out there and it works, in case it can be useful to anybody. I'm convinced that EDHOC will be valuable particularly in the context of OSCORE, possibly even beyond that. As for the draft itself, I would like to mention one aspect that I think could be improved from the perspective of an implementer. Part of the promise of EDHOC is that it's simple and lightweight due to reusing COSE. That is certainly the case, but breaks down somewhat when working on a system where no fully featured library for it is available. This was the case for me and I personally found it difficult to quickly figure out which aspects of COSE I needed to implement. The draft does a good job of pointing to the right places in RFC 8152, but I still ended up trying to understand another ~100 page document just to implement the few constructs I actually needed. I know the authors are aware of this and there has been some effort to inline more information directly in the specification, which I greatly appreciate. It would be very nice to have an entirely self-contained document to work with. But I have to again point out my lack of experience in that area, it's entirely possible that this draft is in fact much better than others in this regard and I just don't know it yet. With that I would like to support the adoption and am looking forward to seeing how it develops. Kind regards, Martin From stefan.hristozov@aisec.fraunhofer.de Mon Jun 15 03:26:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295EA3A0CB4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 03:26:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xkN7zucbbW26 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 03:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-edgeKA27.fraunhofer.de (mail-edgeka27.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25BAE3A0CA6 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 03:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2HiBAAUTOde/xmnZsBmHQEBAQEJARI?= =?us-ascii?q?BBQUBQIFKgxlVAV2EJIkBh2CaOYErFyYLAQEBAQEBAQEBBwETEgoEAQEChnU?= =?us-ascii?q?BJDgTAhABAQYBAQEBAQYEAgKGRAyCdl9+AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQ0CCAU2AxYFNwNSBoELAiYCSRYNBgIBAYMiAYJ7AQ+zeIEyhD4?= =?us-ascii?q?CgRGDUoFACQGBBCqMSg+BTD+BEScMA4QcgVgBAQIBgSKBB4JHgmAEkh+hdig?= =?us-ascii?q?HgVeBBYEGBAuHJ4h0h18FBwMdhAaMcQaNaoUglgGUIwIEAgQFAhWBaoF5TSS?= =?us-ascii?q?DOAlHGQ2ONoNZM4RhhUQ/ATICNQIGAQcBAQMJkRQBAQ?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2HiBAAUTOde/xmnZsBmHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBQIFKgxlVA?= =?us-ascii?q?V2EJIkBh2CaOYErFyYLAQEBAQEBAQEBBwETEgoEAQEChnUBJDgTAhABAQYBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQYEAgKGRAyCdl9+AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQ0CC?= =?us-ascii?q?AU2AxYFNwNSBoELAiYCSRYNBgIBAYMiAYJ7AQ+zeIEyhD4CgRGDUoFACQGBB?= =?us-ascii?q?CqMSg+BTD+BEScMA4QcgVgBAQIBgSKBB4JHgmAEkh+hdigHgVeBBYEGBAuHJ?= =?us-ascii?q?4h0h18FBwMdhAaMcQaNaoUglgGUIwIEAgQFAhWBaoF5TSSDOAlHGQ2ONoNZM?= =?us-ascii?q?4RhhUQ/ATICNQIGAQcBAQMJkRQBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,514,1583190000"; d="scan'208";a="22452531" Received: from mail-mtadd25.fraunhofer.de ([192.102.167.25]) by mail-edgeKA27.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Jun 2020 12:26:31 +0200 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CrCAAUTOde/2q0YZlmHQEBAQEJARI?= =?us-ascii?q?BBQUBQAeBQ4IqbwNRASA+hCSJAYV1gWuaOYFoCwEDAQEBAQEHASUKBAEBhnQ?= =?us-ascii?q?CJTgTAhABAQUBAQECAQYEbYVbDIYWBjNYAiYCOw4WDQYCAQGDIgGCexCkco8?= =?us-ascii?q?GgTKEPgKBEYNSgUAJAYEEKoxZgUw/gREnDAOEHIFYAQECAYEigQeCR4JgBJI?= =?us-ascii?q?foXYoB4FXgQWBBgQLhyeIdIdfBQcDHYQGjHEGjWqFIJYBlCMCBAIEBQIVgWo?= =?us-ascii?q?igVZNJIM4CUcZDY42g1kzhGGFRD8DMAI1AgYBBwEBAwmRFAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,514,1583190000"; d="scan'208";a="84145970" Received: from 153-97-180-106.vm.c.fraunhofer.de (HELO xch-onprem-01.ads.fraunhofer.de) ([153.97.180.106]) by mail-mtaDD25.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Jun 2020 12:26:28 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.201] (10.225.16.48) by xch-onprem-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.16.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:26:27 +0200 From: Stefan Hristozov Organization: Fraunhofer Institute for Applied and Integrated Security (AISEC) To: Message-ID: <35002ccb-092b-3942-7fa8-f84872cf165b@aisec.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:26:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ClientProxiedBy: xch-onprem-05.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.16.54) To xch-onprem-01.ads.fraunhofer.de (10.225.16.47) Archived-At: Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:29:12 -0000 Dear all, I also support the adoption of the document. We have implemented the latest versions of EDHOC (draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01) and OSCORE in C. Our EDHOC implementation supports all modes of authentication: PSK, signatures and static DH keys. Moreover, for the signature and static DH keys modes we support the usage of RPKs and native CBOR certificates [1]. We tested our implementation on several Cortex M and Xtensa devices: nRF9160, nRF5144, nRF52843 and ESP32. We have verified our implementation against the test vectors in [2]. Currently we are working towards open sourcing of our implementations (probably as Apache 2). Best regards Stefan Hristozov [1]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raza-ace-cbor-certificates-04 [2]: https://github.com/EricssonResearch/EDHOC/blob/master/Test%20Vectors/vect= ors.txt --=20 Stefan Hristozov Department Hardware Security Fraunhofer Institute for Applied and Integrated Security AISEC Lichtenbergstra=C3=9Fe 11, 85748 Garching near Munich, Germany Tel. +49 89 32299 86 157 stefan.hristozov@aisec.fraunhofer.de http://www.aisec.fraunhofer.de http://twitter.com/FraunhoferAISEC From nobody Tue Jun 16 00:00:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0225D3A10EC for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=imt-atlantique.fr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HodvFDBFlZ_Y for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zproxy130.enst.fr (zproxy130.enst.fr [137.194.2.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD06F3A10ED for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by zproxy130.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476B61205A2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zproxy130.enst.fr ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (zproxy130.enst.fr [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id m81ImbWJUwbB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by zproxy130.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4CC1205A4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 zproxy130.enst.fr 9E4CC1205A4 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=imt-atlantique.fr; s=50EA75E8-DE22-11E6-A6DE-0662BA474D24; t=1592290817; bh=kF6j6MUShGi/8cZFPnf8EvOsj59otZn2ZaDespuAvnc=; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:To; b=mJi1v6u6xd5ZWeFk+zKvB5u7lXNjV7i6lfMTUPYnqBBL+h+n381go0G9kH8kNj0VU lAmdFg+NbP2F145WXV1/mzyFRxI+aoYPTjDVufkuI4gDuC7+weoIwtHfsbGMn1jU0D 0gyeZvf7toQrnLtoxpL028zJbpGJ2I+nCYUAmR4g= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zproxy130.enst.fr Received: from zproxy130.enst.fr ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (zproxy130.enst.fr [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id udY6o0CIqhCv for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-yb1-f179.google.com (mail-yb1-f179.google.com [209.85.219.179]) by zproxy130.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 584751205A2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:00:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-yb1-f179.google.com with SMTP id j202so10296956ybg.6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:00:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309awTrIn7eG90HqixUigOVrYWkHOJd82JYss7fk19XIcd/zmih UJzH8miph7AFQbBBc6OpqR3rAPtq8xTgLu2jPdg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylE55IkUXCXgSCABt2yq0GGGSiUskXfM4GPrlA4vb8OE3BpSpcEqD0Fp9zE4cSGvEMTyCgwbKaiNS3iw2tGNw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:1f05:: with SMTP id f5mr1966440ybf.44.1592290816173; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:00:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: Laurent Toutain Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:59:37 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Cc: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a2af205a82e18d3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:00:27 -0000 --0000000000007a2af205a82e18d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I support this document, I've implemented the SCHC compression rules and the performances are good. Laurent On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:55 PM Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: > Hi all, > > Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are > proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is > chartered to work on. Given: > > - the LAKE working group charter, > - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for > draft-selander-lake-edhoc, > - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be > further developed, > - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE > working group, > > we are now launching a call for adoption for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. > > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicat= e > if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document= . > > The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. > > Your LAKE chairs. > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --0000000000007a2af205a82e18d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I support this document,=

I've implemented the SCHC compression ru= les and the performances are good.

Laurent



On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:55 PM Mali=C5=A1a = Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 <malisa.vuc= inic@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi all,

= Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the=C2=A0LAKE for OSCORE our working group i= s chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
= - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group wh= ere it will be further developed,
- that no other drafts have been submi= tted for consideration of the LAKE working group,=C2=A0

we are now l= aunching a call for adoption for=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whe= ther you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if t= his draft=C2=A0becomes a working group document.

T= he call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.
--
Lake mailing list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
--0000000000007a2af205a82e18d3-- From nobody Wed Jun 17 02:10:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1EE43A0819 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 02:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mm3osAjCaUB3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 02:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D46F23A0816 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 02:10:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,522,1583190000"; d="scan'208,217";a="455137135" Received: from clt-128-93-180-36.vpn.inria.fr (HELO [128.93.180.36]) ([128.93.180.36]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 17 Jun 2020 11:10:18 +0200 To: lake@ietf.org From: Timothy Claeys Message-ID: <233f84de-f7d2-988c-e164-bd622db8e729@inria.fr> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 11:10:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------57C24B5721085EF35D5D3E3E" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 09:10:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------57C24B5721085EF35D5D3E3E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, I also support the adoption of the document. We will soon start the implementation of EDHOC in the OpenWSN networking stack, a reference implementation of the 6TiSCH protocol suite. It will complement the OSCORE implementation, and allow us to do performance tests in constrained environments. Timothy Claeys --------------57C24B5721085EF35D5D3E3E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear all,

I also support the adoption of the document.

We will soon start the implementation of EDHOC in the OpenWSN networking stack, a reference implementation of the 6TiSCH protocol suite. It will complement the OSCORE implementation, and allow us to do performance tests in constrained environments.

Timothy Claeys

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Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:07:40 +0000 From: Karl Norrman To: "lake@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 Thread-Index: AQHWRIcnYtTg7GgcnEK467iwe1sfEKjchdpw Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:07:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <233f84de-f7d2-988c-e164-bd622db8e729@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <233f84de-f7d2-988c-e164-bd622db8e729@inria.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [95.192.88.149] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: de60906b-4c71-4d06-0daa-08d812a64503 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2539: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 04371797A5 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: N0ZOA5AYzgsdSlxhUmBiyoelJoJ6LBN3DHLTuHh9MdcW/bQ26YAH+Z3CYcIeASRD5ZO2mmthOzl3bfuUcZSOcWIPykgt3tekL1da/iz7sfjiMj6S8YDUootB/BSvAuxGGJ8EsWnwsd7NLTxBjGhVVMEidKs46YnuXjKeZ+ypiDaQgOTjkRJi7H1TpAXxDi9AYDrMQvapbsm0FAacY1q1WkgpQ617ngnNRYUmaSNMzFxbIS3eLR4lg/HcuIp6vsbwPCTyq61SyDChLqg6maWu1e+XOX3McStiYQ6VKdMenCmbB9YIOaXSVw/GB+BBSmGRFtj09hNhxZuIOMFjUzmL+w== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: de60906b-4c71-4d06-0daa-08d812a64503 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jun 2020 10:07:40.3265 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6yXLGwqsTxMqPUByP/kwhBwtM4v9AJh+gSNotKT04x5eZl0Fv7hjpa8vZ3GCEeSp3QQp7YmlISipXe2f36qS4NjLrQLQsBOrekvWhLW4IYs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2539 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 10:07:44 -0000 SGkhDQoNCkZvciB5b3VyIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLCBhbmQgd2l0aG91dCB0YWtpbmcgYW55IHN0YW5k IG9uIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBvZiBhZG9wdGlvbiwgYSB0ZWFtIG9mIHBlb3BsZSBmcm9tIEtUSCwg SVRVIENvcGVuaGFnZW4gYW5kIEVyaWNzc29uIGFyZSB3b3JraW5nIG9uIGZvcm1hbCB2ZXJpZmlj YXRpb24gb2YgRURIT0MgdXNpbmcgIHRoZSBUYW1hcmluIHRvb2wuIFdlIGhhdmUgcHJvdmVuIHNv bWUgZnVuZGFtZW50YWwgcHJvcGVydGllcyBmb3IgYWxsIGZpdmUgbWV0aG9kcyBzbyBmYXIgYW5k IGFyZSBjdXJyZW50bHkgd3JpdGluZyB1cCB0aGUgYW5hbHlzaXMuDQoNCldlIHdvcmsgd2l0aCBh IHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGZyb20gMjAyMC0wMy0wMS4gQWZ0ZXIgYSBxdWljayBzY2Fu LCB0aGVyZSBhcHBlYXIgdG8gYmUgbm8gZGlmZmVyZW5jZXMgY29tcGFyZWQgdG8gZHJhZnQtc2Vs YW5kZXItbGFrZS1lZGhvYy0wMS50eHQgd2hpY2ggYWZmZWN0IG91ciBtb2RlbC4NCg0KU29tZSBv ZiB0aGUgcHJvcGVydGllcyB3ZSBoYXZlIHZlcmlmaWVkOg0KIC0gUEZTIGZvciBzZXNzaW9uIGtl eSBtYXRlcmlhbA0KIC0gU2Vzc2lvbiBrZXkgbWF0ZXJpYWwgaW5kZXBlbmRlbmNlIChiZXR3ZWVu IHNlc3Npb25zKQ0KIC0gSW5qZWN0aXZlIGFncmVlbWVudCBvbiBzZXNzaW9uIGtleSBtYXRlcmlh bA0KIC0gTXV0dWFsIGVudGl0eSBhdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiAoYmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGFzc3VtcHRp b24gdGhhdCBwYXJ0eSBpZGVudGl0aWVzIGFyZSBwcm9wZXJseSB0aWVkIHRvIHRoZSBjcmVkZW50 aWFscywgaW4gbGluZSB3aXRoIFNlY3Rpb24gMy4yIG9mIHRoZSBkcmFmdCkNCg0KVGhlIGRldGFp bHMgY2FuIGJlIHJlYWQgaW4gdGhlIHBhcGVyIHdoZW4gaXQgYmVjb21lcyBhdmFpbGFibGUuDQoN CkJSIEthcmwNCg== From nobody Thu Jun 18 08:45:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D583A09D2 for ; 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boundary="_000_HE1P189MB0556C88B131E12C63C008505839B0HE1P189MB0556EURP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ri.se X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 828dabc6-41a7-4850-96b0-08d8139ea5ec X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jun 2020 15:45:38.1242 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5a9809cf-0bcb-413a-838a-09ecc40cc9e8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ChY0BjVplMZI4+VCW5HeN8A5jJ8L862syjCjlBt0fMbk7oeF3LHJ9ysF37kQc5dpeozeNW9Fc2vULlTDrFKoWw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1P189MB0457 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:45:52 -0000 --_000_HE1P189MB0556C88B131E12C63C008505839B0HE1P189MB0556EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. I support the adoption of this document. I have been working on an implementation of OSCORE and integrating it into = the Californium library, and I am also working on an implementation of Grou= p OSCORE. In addition I have been doing work on adding support for OSCORE t= o the LWM2M Leshan framework. EDHOC can be useful for establishing keys, as= OSCORE in Californium currently only supports pre-shared symmetric keys. Best wishes Rikard H=F6glund RISE ________________________________ From: Lake on behalf of Mali=B9a Vu=E8ini=E6 Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 15:54 To: lake@ietf.org Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond b= y June 22 Hi all, Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is cha= rtered to work on. Given: - the LAKE working group charter, - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc, - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be furt= her developed, - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group, we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate = if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document. The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. Your LAKE chairs. --_000_HE1P189MB0556C88B131E12C63C008505839B0HE1P189MB0556EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello.

I support the adoption of this document.

I have been working on an implementation of OSCORE and integrating it = into the Californium library, and I am also working on an implementation of= Group OSCORE. In addition I have been doing work on adding support for OSC= ORE to the LWM2M Leshan framework. EDHOC can be useful for establishing keys, as OSCORE in Californium curren= tly only supports pre-shared symmetric keys.

Best wishes
Rikard H=F6glund
RISE

From: Lake <lake-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Mali=B9a Vu=E8ini=E6 <malisa.vucinic@inria.fr= >
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 15:54
To: lake@ietf.org <lake@ietf.org>
Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - re= spond by June 22
 
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group i= s chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be furt= her developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group, 

we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate = if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group docum= ent.

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.
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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: VSYQpRo3Cut3LjGAEHpFNfhythdMHJK9qIc7PFpMs2hYNML4LkefmhFF23LWx3lpgBLZmek1n0+njgLbkHz7lBMkv2h8admOO7B699RYVViIGTDpV9qVOg6vmd/48hpsixuohD5/7av7wJ1snLydnEpYH3Oq/NnU6vGTYK7cCKjwKGHAT1kwgDc0/QKMbBOT5xx/jE0PYH0w5OvGb3d25PfkEP30hycvgLFofPAE/olY2Liwt7vodLU7B2HBUWmAGUgALKRulyLRXcdhvTL8Yzkm60zIS3Z0JKzJAmjruVuTNCi/mrGAWVhPqLbmBU5gT3FE4TLHHjbZDoaStige0dbb60yrUMXESNWRuQSVOFVOx56Q7L1vMcAMgrPFe46i4VUgful3ZHru7MzlRCR6cEc8mPzk/etDA0/rFTboYt+4HIZ7JTPcB/mR7sXflDuIqXbIRBKbeOH7adT0jEtFmMK96YvMCzaD+yXEzAwDWFE= X-OriginatorOrg: ri.se X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 21ddfb2c-cf4e-470e-1889-08d813b8f3ce X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2020 18:53:56.2223 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 5a9809cf-0bcb-413a-838a-09ecc40cc9e8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: K2iSOrOZFnVc7WKeiQ4REY+w+26fQI+UBQdsK2aQ5fZAcE+cmx+FRG7+2dX8ve+6+XKnKDddfzflM0YHrMk2+g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1P189MB0301 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:54:05 -0000 --4yzzdRsxK3YbQF41l3nF8Q70mhxQuEYi3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="4cKYL5svWhrexUQ1VrDaGkqBivoKGj3GY" --4cKYL5svWhrexUQ1VrDaGkqBivoKGj3GY Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E97C68D8EBF18371E227919B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E97C68D8EBF18371E227919B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I support the adoption of this document. Best, /Marco On 2020-06-08 15:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: > Hi all, > > Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we > are proceeding with the selection of the=C2=A0LAKE for OSCORE our worki= ng > group is chartered to work on. Given: > > - the LAKE working group charter, > - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for > draft-selander-lake-edhoc, > - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be > further developed, > - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the > LAKE working group,=C2=A0 > > we are now launching a call for adoption > for=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. > > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and > indicate if you are ready to review if this draft=C2=A0becomes a workin= g > group document. > > The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. > > Your LAKE chairs. > --=20 Marco Tiloca Ph.D., Senior Researcher RISE Research Institutes of Sweden Division ICT Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16 SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden) Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501 https://www.ri.se --------------E97C68D8EBF18371E227919B Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,

I support the adoption of this document.

Best,
/Marco

On 2020-06-08 15:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4= =8Dini=C4=87 wrote:
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the=C2=A0LAKE f= or OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE working group,=C2=A0

we are now launching a call for adoption for=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft=C2=A0become= s a working group document.

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.


--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www=
=2Eri.se
--------------E97C68D8EBF18371E227919B-- --4cKYL5svWhrexUQ1VrDaGkqBivoKGj3GY-- --4yzzdRsxK3YbQF41l3nF8Q70mhxQuEYi3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEOEo4cV326Z7GypVg7iZktA5Y2kMFAl7ruA8ACgkQ7iZktA5Y 2kNC4Af+Mo8+dClLIiW+AnR9qBJTLiIf4EmZ2werrxCjvvziZLNDWbvzuYtFmYEP 0KnrCN9/Vy3kiDgB3gAutrUwCj5IzKyuFttfch0N6kAL6ZmPACU2uIIbX0/vjM3K VEt7qmrG20wAgf/V33ioSSmdVnsRGeoRtF7isFLHr8A53ux6fjPPiWHpcYi/wwMB AUQytCLPd7ChgOrK+txs4DhZ63Kc7/V+x9xJYs34owDlrr8quFHsPRWTEhfbcWfa QjLKH/BHslSuPmJsjyuKGYqtDkkFzg76poJngRJyFhsgNJXJp8zqFVerWULkMofL 3goGEDMIbjilHYEnua+3SyHuU7R5EA== =vSWM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4yzzdRsxK3YbQF41l3nF8Q70mhxQuEYi3-- From nobody Thu Jun 18 13:18:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE993A0F57 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:18:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQhxLycKg4jM for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BC603A0F56 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id A8D03280722; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id A0E34280730; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (unknown [10.1.50.11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987E6280722; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.afnic.fr (hebe.prod-int.prive.th3.nic.fr [10.1.81.80]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E54464C6C03; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.afnic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854342D7CF88; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.afnic.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.afnic.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id rDur6KsgpT0H; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.afnic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF6B2D7CF87; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.afnic.fr Received: from zimbra.afnic.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.afnic.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id zSWVnxdgZxXQ; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Sandoches-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [10.0.95.6]) by zimbra.afnic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B36F82D7CF85; Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:30 +0200 (CEST) To: =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= , lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: sandoche Balakrichenan Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:18:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A33F11174DF451C56C3507C8" Content-Language: en-US X-Bogosity: Unsure, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.466833, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2019.11.5.63017 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:18:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A33F11174DF451C56C3507C8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of this document. Sandoche. On 18/06/2020 20:53, Marco Tiloca wrote: > > > On 2020-06-08 15:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we=20 >> are proceeding with the selection of the=C2=A0LAKE for OSCORE our work= ing=20 >> group is chartered to work on. Given: >> >> - the LAKE working group charter, >> - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for=20 >> draft-selander-lake-edhoc, >> - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will=20 >> be further developed, >> - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the=20 >> LAKE working group, >> >> we are now launching a call for adoption for=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >> >> Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and=20 >> indicate if you are ready to review if this draft=C2=A0becomes a worki= ng=20 >> group document. >> >> The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >> >> Your LAKE chairs. >> > > --=20 > Marco Tiloca > Ph.D., Senior Researcher > > RISE Research Institutes of Sweden > Division ICT > Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16 > SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden) > > Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501 > https://www.ri.se > --------------A33F11174DF451C56C3507C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support the adoption of this document.

Sandoche.

On 18/06/2020 20:53, Marco Tiloca wrote:


On 2020-06-08 15:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4= =8Dini=C4=87 wrote:
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the=C2=A0LAKE= for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE working group,=C2=A0

we are now launching a call for adoption for=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft=C2=A0beco= mes a working group document.

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.


--=20
Marco Tiloca
Ph.D., Senior Researcher

RISE Research Institutes of Sweden
Division ICT
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www.ri.se

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certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jesus.sanchez4) by xenon43.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 334871FF6D; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 22:13:48 +0200 (CEST) To: lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: Jesus Sanchez-Gomez Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 22:13:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: es-ES Authentication-Results: mx01.puc.rediris.es; spf=pass (rediris.es: domain of jesus.sanchez4@um.es designates 155.54.212.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jesus.sanchez4@um.es DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; d=um.es; s=DKIM; c=relaxed/relaxed; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version:content-type; bh=oTWm7qw9xjH6BhU9yGpxaKtZHG/33Ws+TDVQ0SXSuaY=; b=QmRgR382aIVJLHfX1yLPnJ3isy/0l8t2S4EobhhMV1uMFJJvK3ZUtPQtxKqva6/5FXhyWnTEL+eO raGl+5Ciu0l3Vqi3fRLbGSPIM+KH1CfhF2oeW6WJU5VRmn+q2WxXn7OAKSK1PCDdNMSsMMM3fQel b/HVXmCcKU1Kh0d6p9znc4Dul8F9udgw8z4DeuoDsLSs1nUJFla3hilx9JSGCQU8gGRP1aHgcVjM q5LBNa9HrQXbtKfi9R5CFXdhU2KU8uTszMoZBcQxwCjxhY6DIUjPlNl7T2jAkx/yRGsAlDzVQ1HD hb1apTA9uWdGp+yz4flDHAvt9uNnnLmvbnyJBw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 20:13:54 -0000 Hello All, I support the adoption of this document. I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers yielding good results. There are several use cases where this technology is a good solution for different research projects at the University of Murcia and Odin Solutions. While I've practical experience with this technology working specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any constrained radio link/LPWAN. Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like more generic IoT scenarios with large scalability. Best Regards, -- Jesús Sánchez Gómez Contratado predoctoral // Phd Student. Fundación Séneca. Comunidad Autónoma de la Región de Murcia +34 868 88 96 74 +34 635 33 26 09 jesus.sanchez4@um.es Department of Information and Communication Engineering Faculty of Computer Science University of Murcia 30100 Murcia, Spain From nobody Sun Jun 21 16:52:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F6B13A0400 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=Cqe/azYY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=aB1/c8X+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7K8qnFvLwzQ for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A3303A03F2 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDC76D2 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 19:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 21 Jun 2020 19:51:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=qNmRc iFXBiNv53RvXA8MMJ9hUeoZonS8gyKg0lolS1c=; b=Cqe/azYYYEoEpYkcsdAJW q8wtXX1ZfyBQ7vGEKYGHTG+PVAG4XRozKyugr83vN0qNQpHYKAvUTRZCLWCXxb9l OXtBfN8mX9AyV3Vq+Ij2nZJHcOCAzz4xcMFakf82jC2zGqx5I7GNus+a/quRdOjd SqRswVS/wymVRbo3HHdPnF1RcHaoCtvFu8eutTNi49D3z84oih0HlXBnoGgBuxz3 RFN7I0NlhxZ8SoNJ1RI8JPZ0GxhjipKMFoIyLYZGSfOuf7aI/EMvLDcm9jqQHQhJ Bi7dr46FUEWqJaQrwwY3Bob1VXF9Nq/LfiYhvnRpWd9bAbA/e0Xuso9bLtOK5bA1 w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=qNmRciFXBiNv53RvXA8MMJ9hUeoZonS8gyKg0lolS 1c=; b=aB1/c8X+dVYs9d9ADn3Alf6aGHb+GJ8CWNAu7q1qeFjNUaG6hG0o8jfCf GBRVz+czI1NUZEjLah6tXkH2qZcNIMZhSbntJ1uD8DgHIjjI3ZRBjT6sbfy+DZAS 6/ocDg/zktny+sUfPJ1V1utHQj73fEceXfPGHab8ml6BjHWIVh1ePthpBoeL86tc m2CQasqswLzGRGRftqK2LxGYO4BHQ6PPz+Ww+pPnR2ffiFVCgabVgze+hyo0cndg eSeBPsxt2xdcOyddEU6+9q7mFr4XMe1IeyWaY0OX6xEEqRyPeb6XFkTRsatWS43q e+1HIpqhnv5l9wXRROTQhGLm29Eng== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudekuddgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdevhhhrihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggr fieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteeivdelff eftddvlefhtdfhvdfgteffhedtjeelgfehkeelledvudffledtleeknecuffhomhgrihhn pehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 426873C00A1; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 19:51:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-543-gda70334-fm-20200618.004-gda703345 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:51:38 -0700 From: "Christopher Wood" To: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_adoption_for_draft-selander-lake-edhoc?= =?utf-8?q?_-_respond_by_June_22?= X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 23:52:02 -0000 I do not support adoption. The charter of this WG states: draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate starting point for the LAKE produced by the WG. Any work available fr= om TLS or other WGs that satisfies the determined requirements will also= be evaluated for suitability, but does not preclude the WG from freely selecting its preferred LAKE for OSCORE. Unless I missed it, work from TLS was not seriously evaluated for suitab= ility. In fact, it seems we jumped right over it and landed on draft-selander-a= ce-cose-ecdhe. The cTLS authors demonstrated that this variant of the protocol can inde= ed meet the requirements set out in draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04, without compromisin= g any of the benefits that the TLS ecosystem brings to the table. (Support for di= fferent server authentication modes, for example, is something TLS is well equip= ped to support.) I understand that the TLS WG adopted cTLS and will continue its developm= ent there. However, that does not seem relevant for what this WG chooses. By analog= y, this would be similar to QUIC developing its own key exchange protocol since UDP is= just slightly different from TCP. Clearly, that was not the path chosen, and I think i= t would be a=20 mistake to do that here without seriously considering cTLS.=20 Best, Chris On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Gomez wrote: > Hello All, >=20 > I support the adoption of this document. >=20 > I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers yielding=20= > good results. >=20 > There are several use cases where this technology is a good solution f= or=20 > different research projects at the University of Murcia and Odin Solut= ions. >=20 > While I've practical experience with this technology working=20 > specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any=20 > constrained radio link/LPWAN. >=20 > Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like more=20 > generic IoT scenarios with large scalability. >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jes=C3=BAs S=C3=A1nchez G=C3=B3mez > Contratado predoctoral // Phd Student. Fundaci=C3=B3n S=C3=A9neca. Com= unidad=20 > Aut=C3=B3noma de la Regi=C3=B3n de Murcia > +34 868 88 96 74 > +34 635 33 26 09 > jesus.sanchez4@um.es > Department of Information and Communication Engineering > Faculty of Computer Science > University of Murcia > 30100 Murcia, Spain >=20 > --=20 > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > From nobody Sun Jun 21 17:29:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6133A0853 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:29:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HIIVboCU7sZT for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E11823A0854 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6363BE2C; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:29:19 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hYfJ8oHizTeP; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:29:17 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A347BE20; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:29:17 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1592785757; bh=Qms8Grt8anD7AOcr9pRrOBF4QH5Ma7oiR7wojwcreLE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=gEgBlSYiUxFD/misWMwAkvQ3wu3mJ/o1MrIIkPxiQcxTGnClHelwlHk95KzDlAnmh KMMJPOsqhK5d4hxc+U5yFcPuMNmFveoawpBu9nIqjM7pTC8rLsVaF2IbwBjQboxbHX 5NG9wq6tWsMJY2ogyosZlBTtAK4rcSr9YgUMSjAA= To: Christopher Wood , lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <23d5f254-d1f3-81ae-8b43-bc0706f4a28f@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:29:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="g409hdmX5YiCx4WqPhdkQ5VTPN7aAMMG8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 00:29:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --g409hdmX5YiCx4WqPhdkQ5VTPN7aAMMG8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BfeNjhDwdYqOzSR5QdKDW2u6wmAPVkPVf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Christopher Wood , lake@ietf.org Message-ID: <23d5f254-d1f3-81ae-8b43-bc0706f4a28f@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> --BfeNjhDwdYqOzSR5QdKDW2u6wmAPVkPVf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5DDA838AD9D4A9247467429C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DDA838AD9D4A9247467429C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I've a couple of questions below as I don't quite get the basis for your conclusion. (I'm not trying to argue your conclusion but I don't understand it and would like to.) On 22/06/2020 00:51, Christopher Wood wrote: > I do not support adoption. >=20 > The charter of this WG states: >=20 > draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate starting point for the > LAKE produced by the WG. Any work available from TLS or other WGs > that satisfies the determined requirements will also be evaluated for > suitability, but does not preclude the WG from freely selecting its > preferred LAKE for OSCORE. >=20 > Unless I missed it, work from TLS was not seriously evaluated for > suitability. I don't understand what work you mean. cTLS has been adopted by the TLS WG and will be developed there. I don't understand what useful thing this WG could do about that. > In fact, it seems we jumped right over it and landed on > draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe. Yes. That is the only other serious proposal of which I'm aware. > The cTLS authors demonstrated that this variant of the protocol can > indeed meet the requirements set out in draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04, > without compromising any of the benefits that the TLS ecosystem > brings to the table. (Support for different server authentication > modes, for example, is something TLS is well equipped to support.) That's fine, but doesn't seem to speak to this adoption call. >=20 > I understand that the TLS WG adopted cTLS and will continue its > development there. However, that does not seem relevant for what this > WG chooses.=20 I really don't understand that. We have 2 serious proposals. One will be processed elsewhere. The question before us now is whether to pursue the other one or not. It seems entirely relevant to me that we are left with one or zero things to work on in this WG. > By analogy, this would be similar to QUIC developing its > own key exchange protocol since UDP is just slightly different from > TCP.=20 I don't find that analogy that useful tbh. QUIC is a transport area WG chartered to develop a transport protocol. This WG was chartered to do work on the topic of key exchange, so I don't think the analogy holds. > Clearly, that was not the path chosen, and I think it would be a > mistake to do that here without seriously considering cTLS. Again - I've no clue what "seriously considering" might mean. cTLS is being worked on. If we do not adopt edhoc then what would this WG be doing? I don't think is makes much sense for a WG to exist merely to "seriously consider" a work item in another WG:-) Cheers, S. >=20 > Best, Chris >=20 > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Gomez wrote: >> Hello All, >>=20 >> I support the adoption of this document. >>=20 >> I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers >> yielding good results. >>=20 >> There are several use cases where this technology is a good >> solution for different research projects at the University of >> Murcia and Odin Solutions. >>=20 >> While I've practical experience with this technology working=20 >> specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any=20 >> constrained radio link/LPWAN. >>=20 >> Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like more=20 >> generic IoT scenarios with large scalability. >>=20 >> Best Regards, >>=20 >>=20 >> -- Jes=C3=BAs S=C3=A1nchez G=C3=B3mez Contratado predoctoral // Phd St= udent. >> Fundaci=C3=B3n S=C3=A9neca. Comunidad Aut=C3=B3noma de la Regi=C3=B3n = de Murcia +34 868 >> 88 96 74 +34 635 33 26 09 jesus.sanchez4@um.es Department of >> Information and Communication Engineering Faculty of Computer >> Science University of Murcia 30100 Murcia, Spain >>=20 >> -- Lake mailing list Lake@ietf.org=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >>=20 >=20 --------------5DDA838AD9D4A9247467429C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WtEkUuNtZF1UmmKNNAUGg0MaNmjQ8nsGC4+IQh3yGFM=; b=A616di4ox1+eAkUGtQBx6Wul01ggaG6N4/Oq3liS3J483tOvNNYCc8x2LYPDgHA9fd Fkb0dlenIdxm800QNdnb7502gfq63JkfYAcUajKu8PphigVrAPuZYaofG3Udeq+dzEcK 46v4BZgi/qD9LfiZwxlrZeSuYVbKYH51Uf8eiloOLsZoEvp53nN22mLJlaWcA16JfgvF fce9MKeKuI6hIt0raElqCx7bBNNMG/kgFH/UYYeEVh47NKKt7/4VG4Ski2KuFU80CNiT UcxvfA6Vz+lQuH1JLJmhRQDU0MkhPLIwb57csxOnBL+sz0gWm7vy9texbZKxno4waDiL 6wOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WtEkUuNtZF1UmmKNNAUGg0MaNmjQ8nsGC4+IQh3yGFM=; b=VbCsXKV1Q4EBdeqa/IHgoIY5po3cyrxq1/3BC2tNqhL5dj5YYDv4jyePzc0x925Zvt 2A9B5SUcgGO0fQBKHwmWqFbBlfthOpLecJPp77gCD3Jf7pDWJNqGGvPhTM3eArkvUE4K 67qOIhaJTHHUgRVJj+1Wl+/OLob3MEuOaTXG6IZBJZE5TJdgKaYitK/z98OgOuRGw2G5 Ck4xIO2DcM6xsAzT21h7L4BSa1dERWan3IMVLUbz1kf0KCF4b2sdhs6EroB8LnjBdKZ5 NiDbngMalQ5AYgW2Wxh8wb6oXnxvrzwlICrysJUzlw3YeryIt8d5qM2TUf7ymzT4d+Bd ECrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wGsMOR6y1jNohxLLuQzf7LUVBykHt0BXn/Uju8JsDsLD5kuDE MpWDlr8hiHx/Sfq3+4Ndw4Y8IlzdzbEA3u1PTTuT2g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyR9fe3OdEDCp8TU5rE2hqawoc4sQnubQapXnj3sDD5/XG5/fmsl46pmEjeeNOf14RgkoXdj8iM5tSMF2oGN1M= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:81d4:: with SMTP id s20mr7186347ljg.184.1592785911462; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:31:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:31:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christopher Wood Cc: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000074c4e605a8a15ec5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 00:31:56 -0000 --00000000000074c4e605a8a15ec5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think it's surprising that I also don't favor adoption. In general, I believe that there are a lot of advantages to reusing an existing AKE, because we inherit not only the analysis of that AKE but also all the work that goes into extending it, both in the past and in the future. I do think there are settings where it makes sense to standardize a new AKE. For example, group messaging is a radically different setting and therefore designing a new AKE (MLS) was a much better idea than trying to repurpose one of our existing ones (TLS, IKE, or GKMP, etc.). However, in this case we have a setting which is quite similar to that for which TLS was designed and differs primarily in message size. Were this setting radically simpler than the TLS setting, then it might still make sense to design something new, but as I read the requirements, they're actually not particularly simple and it seems likely they will eventually expand. This leaves us with the question of message size. However, as cTLS appears to be able to meet the consensus message size requirements, I do not believe it is necessary to adopt and standardize EDHOC. -Ekr On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 4:52 PM Christopher Wood wrote: > I do not support adoption. > > The charter of this WG states: > > draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate > starting point for the LAKE produced by the WG. Any work available fro= m > TLS or other WGs that satisfies the determined requirements will also = be > evaluated for suitability, but does not preclude the WG from freely > selecting its preferred LAKE for OSCORE. > > Unless I missed it, work from TLS was not seriously evaluated for > suitability. > In fact, it seems we jumped right over it and landed on > draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe. > The cTLS authors demonstrated that this variant of the protocol can indee= d > meet > the requirements set out in draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04, without compromising > any of > the benefits that the TLS ecosystem brings to the table. (Support for > different > server authentication modes, for example, is something TLS is well > equipped to support.) > > I understand that the TLS WG adopted cTLS and will continue its > development there. > However, that does not seem relevant for what this WG chooses. By analogy= , > this would > be similar to QUIC developing its own key exchange protocol since UDP is > just slightly > different from TCP. Clearly, that was not the path chosen, and I think it > would be a > mistake to do that here without seriously considering cTLS. > > Best, > Chris > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Gomez wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I support the adoption of this document. > > > > I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers yielding > > good results. > > > > There are several use cases where this technology is a good solution fo= r > > different research projects at the University of Murcia and Odin > Solutions. > > > > While I've practical experience with this technology working > > specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any > > constrained radio link/LPWAN. > > > > Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like more > > generic IoT scenarios with large scalability. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > -- > > Jes=C3=BAs S=C3=A1nchez G=C3=B3mez > > Contratado predoctoral // Phd Student. Fundaci=C3=B3n S=C3=A9neca. Comu= nidad > > Aut=C3=B3noma de la Regi=C3=B3n de Murcia > > +34 868 88 96 74 > > +34 635 33 26 09 > > jesus.sanchez4@um.es > > Department of Information and Communication Engineering > > Faculty of Computer Science > > University of Murcia > > 30100 Murcia, Spain > > > > -- > > Lake mailing list > > Lake@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > > > > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --00000000000074c4e605a8a15ec5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think it's surprising that I also don'= t favor adoption. In
general, I believe that there are a lot of advantag= es to reusing an
existing AKE, because we inherit not only the analysis = of that AKE but
also all the work that goes into extending it, both in t= he past and in
the future.

I do think there are settings where it= makes sense to standardize a
new AKE. For example, group messaging is a= radically different setting
and therefore designing a new AKE (MLS) was= a much better idea than
trying to repurpose one of our existing ones (T= LS, IKE, or GKMP,
etc.). However, in this case we have a setting which i= s quite similar
to that for which TLS was designed and differs primarily= in message
size. Were this setting radically simpler than the TLS setti= ng,
then it might still make sense to design something new, but as
I = read the requirements, they're actually not particularly simple
and = it seems likely they will eventually expand.

This leaves us with the= question of message size. However, as cTLS
appears to be able to meet t= he consensus message size requirements, I
do not believe it is necessary= to adopt and standardize EDHOC.

-Ekr



On Sun, Jun 21, 202= 0 at 4:52 PM Christopher Wood <ca= w@heapingbits.net> wrote:
I do not support adoption.

The charter of this WG states:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0starting point for the LAKE produced by the WG. Any work avail= able from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLS or other WGs that satisfies the determined requirements wi= ll also be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0evaluated for suitability, but does not preclude the WG from f= reely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selecting its preferred LAKE for OSCORE.

Unless I missed it, work from TLS was not seriously evaluated for suitabili= ty.
In fact, it seems we jumped right over it and landed on draft-selander-ace-= cose-ecdhe.
The cTLS authors demonstrated that this variant of the protocol can indeed = meet
the requirements set out in draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04, without compromising a= ny of
the benefits that the TLS ecosystem brings to the table. (Support for diffe= rent
server authentication modes, for example, is something TLS is well equipped= to support.)

I understand that the TLS WG adopted cTLS and will continue its development= there.
However, that does not seem relevant for what this WG chooses. By analogy, = this would
be similar to QUIC developing its own key exchange protocol since UDP is ju= st slightly
different from TCP. Clearly, that was not the path chosen, and I think it w= ould be a
mistake to do that here without seriously considering cTLS.

Best,
Chris

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Gomez wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I support the adoption of this document.
>
> I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers yieldi= ng
> good results.
>
> There are several use cases where this technology is a good solution f= or
> different research projects at the University of Murcia and Odin Solut= ions.
>
> While I've practical experience with this technology working
> specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any
> constrained radio link/LPWAN.
>
> Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like more
> generic IoT scenarios with large scalability.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> --
> Jes=C3=BAs S=C3=A1nchez G=C3=B3mez
> Contratado predoctoral // Phd Student. Fundaci=C3=B3n S=C3=A9neca. Com= unidad
> Aut=C3=B3noma de la Regi=C3=B3n de Murcia
> +34 868 88 96 74
> +34 635 33 26 09
> jesus.sanche= z4@um.es
> Department of Information and Communication Engineering
> Faculty of Computer Science
> University of Murcia
> 30100 Murcia, Spain
>
> --
> Lake mailing list
> Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
>

--
Lake mailing list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
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As observed below, cTLS is underway elsewhere in the IETF. That does *no= t* mean this WG needs to pick an entirely separate AKE. On the contrary,= this WG ought to evaluate -- per the charter -- whether cTLS meets the = needs of LAKE. If it does, and if folks favor that AKE, then the primari= ly outcome of this WG seems to be in formulating requirements which led = to that decision. (That would be a fine outcome as far as I'm concerned.= The success of a WG is not predicated on how many documents it produces= .) In sum, I think this adoption call is premature and goes against what th= e charter lays out. Let's do our due diligence here.=20 I strongly believe Introducing yet another AKE into the standards pool i= s something we should not do without serious contemplation. Best, Chris On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > I've a couple of questions below as I don't quite get the > basis for your conclusion. (I'm not trying to argue your > conclusion but I don't understand it and would like to.) >=20 > On 22/06/2020 00:51, Christopher Wood wrote: > > I do not support adoption. > >=20 > > The charter of this WG states: > >=20 > > draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate starting point for the > > LAKE produced by the WG. Any work available from TLS or other WGs > > that satisfies the determined requirements will also be evaluated fo= r > > suitability, but does not preclude the WG from freely selecting its > > preferred LAKE for OSCORE. > >=20 > > Unless I missed it, work from TLS was not seriously evaluated for > > suitability. >=20 > I don't understand what work you mean. cTLS has been > adopted by the TLS WG and will be developed there. I > don't understand what useful thing this WG could do > about that. > > > In fact, it seems we jumped right over it and landed on > > draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe. >=20 > Yes. That is the only other serious proposal of which > I'm aware. >=20 > > The cTLS authors demonstrated that this variant of the protocol can > > indeed meet the requirements set out in draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04, > > without compromising any of the benefits that the TLS ecosystem > > brings to the table. (Support for different server authentication > > modes, for example, is something TLS is well equipped to support.) >=20 > That's fine, but doesn't seem to speak to this adoption > call. >=20 > >=20 > > I understand that the TLS WG adopted cTLS and will continue its > > development there. However, that does not seem relevant for what thi= s > > WG chooses.=20 >=20 > I really don't understand that. We have 2 serious > proposals. One will be processed elsewhere. The question > before us now is whether to pursue the other one or > not. It seems entirely relevant to me that we are left > with one or zero things to work on in this WG. >=20 > > By analogy, this would be similar to QUIC developing its > > own key exchange protocol since UDP is just slightly different from > > TCP.=20 >=20 > I don't find that analogy that useful tbh. QUIC is a > transport area WG chartered to develop a transport > protocol. This WG was chartered to do work on the topic > of key exchange, so I don't think the analogy holds. >=20 > > Clearly, that was not the path chosen, and I think it would be a > > mistake to do that here without seriously considering cTLS. >=20 > Again - I've no clue what "seriously considering" might > mean. cTLS is being worked on. If we do not adopt edhoc > then what would this WG be doing? I don't think is makes > much sense for a WG to exist merely to "seriously consider" > a work item in another WG:-) >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Best, Chris > >=20 > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Gomez wrote: > >> Hello All, > >>=20 > >> I support the adoption of this document. > >>=20 > >> I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers > >> yielding good results. > >>=20 > >> There are several use cases where this technology is a good > >> solution for different research projects at the University of > >> Murcia and Odin Solutions. > >>=20 > >> While I've practical experience with this technology working=20 > >> specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any=20 > >> constrained radio link/LPWAN. > >>=20 > >> Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like more=20= > >> generic IoT scenarios with large scalability. > >>=20 > >> Best Regards, > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> -- Jes=C3=BAs S=C3=A1nchez G=C3=B3mez Contratado predoctoral // Phd= Student. > >> Fundaci=C3=B3n S=C3=A9neca. Comunidad Aut=C3=B3noma de la Regi=C3=B3= n de Murcia +34 868 > >> 88 96 74 +34 635 33 26 09 jesus.sanchez4@um.es Department of > >> Information and Communication Engineering Faculty of Computer > >> Science University of Murcia 30100 Murcia, Spain > >>=20 > >> -- Lake mailing list Lake@ietf.org=20 > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > >>=20 > >=20 >=20 > Attachments: > * 0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc > * signature.asc From nobody Sun Jun 21 17:51:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809E93A0803 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eX3Ow6gFr8Xu for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FEB43A07E0 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10230BE2C; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:51:15 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gn_yKuDCSTkT; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:51:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B8843BE20; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:51:10 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1592787070; bh=8X9GF/Qzl6ebeIamu35JIP/zywZVN6ndxRoSL7MsLY4=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ga4qXI7ThjUPQdfUnt9qBRoL+1IoaTOhTMdSZtVLz3KEWDSDdIMDTEcQG4+m1mPDF YCrpHvyAaJ18SMFzSqbf+UJvwFMFOFHa29+sUh3CCxwi6NHAGFT686YYVywDRC9WfW F5cmK9CanfWa0ueujWi45xFtl+IwzY2i1TIFncdk= To: Christopher Wood , lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> <23d5f254-d1f3-81ae-8b43-bc0706f4a28f@cs.tcd.ie> <47465501-a826-44ea-a0c3-1e9e6efeb5ce@www.fastmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 01:51:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47465501-a826-44ea-a0c3-1e9e6efeb5ce@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vxvONTaF9NTVFuY6Q82dPO8LfgZYt4hW4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 00:51:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vxvONTaF9NTVFuY6Q82dPO8LfgZYt4hW4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ZPbGGL8EozXwQ1FpsS97oNSm1uw5apbQW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Christopher Wood , lake@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> <23d5f254-d1f3-81ae-8b43-bc0706f4a28f@cs.tcd.ie> <47465501-a826-44ea-a0c3-1e9e6efeb5ce@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47465501-a826-44ea-a0c3-1e9e6efeb5ce@www.fastmail.com> --ZPbGGL8EozXwQ1FpsS97oNSm1uw5apbQW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D810EC6DE666A2DD852F7D00" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D810EC6DE666A2DD852F7D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 22/06/2020 01:38, Christopher Wood wrote: > Top-posting, since I think clarifying will help answer the comments > below. >=20 > As observed below, cTLS is underway elsewhere in the IETF. That does > *not* mean this WG needs to pick an entirely separate AKE. On the > contrary, this WG ought to evaluate -- per the charter -- whether > cTLS meets the needs of LAKE. If it does, and if folks favor that > AKE, then the primarily outcome of this WG seems to be in formulating > requirements which led to that decision. (That would be a fine > outcome as far as I'm concerned. The success of a WG is not > predicated on how many documents it produces.) Hmm. I think both edhoc and cTLS could, in their final incarnation, meet the requirements and that that's fairly clear. What am I missing? I don't get what work needs to be done to establish that, and assume that WG participants can do whatever evaluation is needed for themselves. > In sum, I think this adoption call is premature and goes against what > the charter lays out. Let's do our due diligence here.=20 I'm still confused about the basis for the above TBH. > I strongly > believe Introducing yet another AKE into the standards pool is > something we should not do without serious contemplation. That, however, is quite clear and seems to me a valid basis from which to argue against adopting edhoc. (Noting that "valid" does not mean "winning.") Cheers, S. >=20 > Best, Chris >=20 > On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 5:29 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>=20 >> Hiya, >>=20 >> I've a couple of questions below as I don't quite get the basis for >> your conclusion. (I'm not trying to argue your conclusion but I >> don't understand it and would like to.) >>=20 >> On 22/06/2020 00:51, Christopher Wood wrote: >>> I do not support adoption. >>>=20 >>> The charter of this WG states: >>>=20 >>> draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate starting point for >>> the LAKE produced by the WG. Any work available from TLS or other >>> WGs that satisfies the determined requirements will also be >>> evaluated for suitability, but does not preclude the WG from >>> freely selecting its preferred LAKE for OSCORE. >>>=20 >>> Unless I missed it, work from TLS was not seriously evaluated >>> for suitability. >>=20 >> I don't understand what work you mean. cTLS has been adopted by the >> TLS WG and will be developed there. I don't understand what useful >> thing this WG could do about that. >>=20 >>> In fact, it seems we jumped right over it and landed on=20 >>> draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe. >>=20 >> Yes. That is the only other serious proposal of which I'm aware. >>=20 >>> The cTLS authors demonstrated that this variant of the protocol >>> can indeed meet the requirements set out in >>> draft-ietf-lake-reqs-04, without compromising any of the benefits >>> that the TLS ecosystem brings to the table. (Support for >>> different server authentication modes, for example, is something >>> TLS is well equipped to support.) >>=20 >> That's fine, but doesn't seem to speak to this adoption call. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I understand that the TLS WG adopted cTLS and will continue its=20 >>> development there. However, that does not seem relevant for what >>> this WG chooses. >>=20 >> I really don't understand that. We have 2 serious proposals. One >> will be processed elsewhere. The question before us now is whether >> to pursue the other one or not. It seems entirely relevant to me >> that we are left with one or zero things to work on in this WG. >>=20 >>> By analogy, this would be similar to QUIC developing its own key >>> exchange protocol since UDP is just slightly different from TCP. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I don't find that analogy that useful tbh. QUIC is a transport area >> WG chartered to develop a transport protocol. This WG was chartered >> to do work on the topic of key exchange, so I don't think the >> analogy holds. >>=20 >>> Clearly, that was not the path chosen, and I think it would be a=20 >>> mistake to do that here without seriously considering cTLS. >>=20 >> Again - I've no clue what "seriously considering" might mean. cTLS >> is being worked on. If we do not adopt edhoc then what would this >> WG be doing? I don't think is makes much sense for a WG to exist >> merely to "seriously consider" a work item in another WG:-) >>=20 >> Cheers, S. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Best, Chris >>>=20 >>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Gomez wrote: >>>> Hello All, >>>>=20 >>>> I support the adoption of this document. >>>>=20 >>>> I've worked with the technology in research projects/papers=20 >>>> yielding good results. >>>>=20 >>>> There are several use cases where this technology is a good=20 >>>> solution for different research projects at the University of=20 >>>> Murcia and Odin Solutions. >>>>=20 >>>> While I've practical experience with this technology working=20 >>>> specifically in LoRaWAN, its design makes it a good fit for any >>>> constrained radio link/LPWAN. >>>>=20 >>>> Also, it has potential to be implemented beyond LPWANs, like >>>> more generic IoT scenarios with large scalability. >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards, >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- Jes=C3=BAs S=C3=A1nchez G=C3=B3mez Contratado predoctoral // Phd = Student.=20 >>>> Fundaci=C3=B3n S=C3=A9neca. Comunidad Aut=C3=B3noma de la Regi=C3=B3= n de Murcia +34 >>>> 868 88 96 74 +34 635 33 26 09 jesus.sanchez4@um.es Department >>>> of Information and Communication Engineering Faculty of >>>> Computer Science University of Murcia 30100 Murcia, Spain >>>>=20 >>>> -- Lake mailing list Lake@ietf.org=20 >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> Attachments: * 0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc * signature.asc >=20 --------------D810EC6DE666A2DD852F7D00 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy 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ihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggrfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepudegffekkeelgfejteffheeigeelgfeludffkedutefh heeiheejjeeuieeileejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomheptggrfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id B3B733C00A1; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 20:53:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-543-gda70334-fm-20200618.004-gda703345 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <118bc77b-6ba0-4c8b-9b31-327bf834583d@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> <23d5f254-d1f3-81ae-8b43-bc0706f4a28f@cs.tcd.ie> <47465501-a826-44ea-a0c3-1e9e6efeb5ce@www.fastmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:53:01 -0700 From: "Christopher Wood" To: "Stephen Farrell" , lake@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_adoption_for_draft-selander-lake-edhoc?= =?utf-8?q?_-_respond_by_June_22?= X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 00:53:25 -0000 On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 22/06/2020 01:38, Christopher Wood wrote: > > Top-posting, since I think clarifying will help answer the comments > > below. > > > > As observed below, cTLS is underway elsewhere in the IETF. That does > > *not* mean this WG needs to pick an entirely separate AKE. On the > > contrary, this WG ought to evaluate -- per the charter -- whether > > cTLS meets the needs of LAKE. If it does, and if folks favor that > > AKE, then the primarily outcome of this WG seems to be in formulating > > requirements which led to that decision. (That would be a fine > > outcome as far as I'm concerned. The success of a WG is not > > predicated on how many documents it produces.) > > Hmm. I think both edhoc and cTLS could, in their final > incarnation, meet the requirements and that that's fairly > clear. What am I missing? If this is the case, why are we already considering adopting and moving forward with EDHOC? 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[63.140.73.54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e12sm13212770pfj.137.2020.06.21.22.37.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Jun 2020 22:37:55 -0700 (PDT) To: lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <640332b4-188d-4ca7-9c41-310a3d0a73ed@www.fastmail.com> <23d5f254-d1f3-81ae-8b43-bc0706f4a28f@cs.tcd.ie> <47465501-a826-44ea-a0c3-1e9e6efeb5ce@www.fastmail.com> <118bc77b-6ba0-4c8b-9b31-327bf834583d@www.fastmail.com> From: Melinda Shore Autocrypt: addr=melinda.shore@nomountain.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFppZ0gBEADFwxAi5szDOsM/6+CH4pbYTX7D+2gjLY4xEE7ydQcAF1WVLvcWXrpZM0GO /eA4N1PJ+OT5o8o9zVr7izMJkiLwcnQmxHdlYgZ9E+Cm8hDtMyEPBQwsYTkE5kpbGCmBAZ+W rHNHjvDg366uZQHzJejenB1/V4+rxMZs1Ak34Az2MVOz9Doecaiadpw3NpH3+1VXY/qilqnM lznINSANqD0ktxB/CVKjxl3/K5JnVnLp0h2kiUqt19hQPX2JmLcgaHzu+Ceb34/HZWhs0CiF c4auhQ3A9PcccOprQh6IGW1xo6RP3OEbeRFqeovgBWS+DIWzMIM0a3G2LDid0889QYwEv0zZ RPDCcF3g15mlkeUUmwKQ6eAagPyTqLtTiOKULqy9bQahyX2eqlySrF+HqlwGeNoG+A4l1Z2Y S7NCBLPIzUk2RuSKMBaKw86ORzvg2Advrw4bdv7kbDkArGzywky61SEB/q+GqR466mekXx2F O+m8RuoSnWrBsKvD/bhELHcneorIBleGz+VL7i5adU0rIydG3jPTfUeXoCZIeNx1LannxnAR ihKdh5+FE26WiiK6VmZWkvFjaPFwWGjvAsi82Pd9QgHhnG/XzINpXw/3HF4wtBTU5nIExMzC +FbJxCPq1kXpqSxJqg7hgUFvD5jUD9lpN5Br/S2dUgJj95bbPQARAQABtCxNZWxpbmRhIFNo b3JlIDxtZWxpbmRhLnNob3JlQG5vbW91bnRhaW4ubmV0PokCVAQTAQoAPgIbAwUJCWdTAAUL CQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBE9oLZMqF5b4IPI0wN+4kXKadtuPBQJaaXRaAAoJ EN+4kXKadtuPVioP/3nVzx33yjiEtqLKTEHwofnLT15CV5wAcGa0DTbqgiomVKzSRkkhbF3Z KIHYrnjVpTcYJuW+PmFSIjNizNVr+vvjNP6ptRqx5orWmK4EBe/B9mrpmIshxUwkYr46uwN4 h06xJS3KCzhfhSsnesH5vlGBkUod0+nQhbSLyLRpxmaKaeAl4dxFSBLU0vUJMLH8PXTZVNof 5Yo+ThqCzu1pwOkBQ8gST2J6zdy4PjU9ENQ9RLAamlAG/6rGHEKLFcnUpEg7Tcu1hSzAsqR8 kjX2Prpu4A9DyLCjTOvfOPQa8WjZy18ZdYOxuPxdrTazeCRVJIvYRflhBCZb744jhMyfAiSW eckwRBVSCnBuvWBJl9Ua1wp8SOUXXhgGI8WGvSkvul6kKSkHQKDggd4cojAhxWLfvmjxn5pz 0BNbvrEBGqgWwO1ZMuJpmv3P8YK5Aytsl85NZoMMUJIDxEQhBUgYz5QTQANBKPi8RsfOntho rhzXLqnPPQcE4Xf9O9XIyy077F0JoyiPx74Zsl1dTxmT73pezpfhKUQR7/QlmJ/FAADpb6SO V0tlgBtR6FAZToBYPDiss57AcKM1zzyJ7sHIZkxQelykYSet6hp2WGcwMXQveWqFMQ4fiGQx XNEPO+KZKNj+0sfINzSLP88O5TniM/l/JrjZZNT/lVAQDTdkCBGyuQINBFppZ0gBEACgZuM1 8ghzSuhuv+n0kWyWCeEWrx9Ey03EgFj5alBt55+OLv3dOsdyBHJxjtd0cZS1XaKZlgr1YZ0O pQNv/Wyy8uSW2BZ6hyG1SKN9/1MmfJLNnjjxaBQP4yaMwDdS3wX7hoWY19IpVPZHYDR35FAg SnG/s6we+IOITM1TJoOJs4+ygeK5dC7LfRoj+lkEHYrTcglYVuwsyK2FNz/sF8kJW1fEZHM6 6phSbhCvwbECWbb4eDGXbKZY92W1RTQ5U5td8DMLXyYipQphrcoeRXpb18DbOnE0WwIQV0yB gc/rTiUt/wVjasd1RrsCPBQC/uJ+ZHknvr2MoxIWBBsRtKYHG66aOL+nDV8X1miuF6j4cztv gmdqrwPHpAKVxhfwd/G4suNBunYw4/kAV9b2+eidX5em3NtPPNl/qNjsmEHQGn/5JKRHRvQs 0yuigXDhN2N0keoHrbGCE8kyA/d83L7E9d95hsf3JxpRzmeaTze+NpcIaX5uXdKOaCBjLtx1 tOrDA4XX7Y3nY+waKZYa3RvC7yulFJiKfYWDSriWeQXcXj06p8H6vF6sy9LeX9xRRjTI7qDH FxwuMQIKGqgufXtxu0pxxcMqXTEUPZnxUWUvuFjjYvEmtO92+Ot/NuotV8JvRPwg2OnYjMJo dU1X7hzEs8djtgZG+t3FEGK3i1EJUQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iR cpp2248FAlppZ0gCGwwFCQlnUwAACgkQ37iRcpp2248krg/9H896KtAQCAV0RcV3QqZ75iY5 pCxpRyxAaR0PjE5jiYV5gUHPCKtr9UPZt4Bi+bzNLQ2KJK6Rx4XNf5lQWopEo1IxtOiFPjkr QIpNkYmFWyOGpKpSIDhgsJpswZqxPDLpo+59GNlSUG6v3sMAnx+Gvtvqczkvg6UPDN/JYK75 BIGoCGZMyor1B0EmRYj98LdwjT95dQZXjZvWBDeIx+NxUZKoA7AlR/xgsN3PHGq4SApMLL0R /qbiLIzUPnTPt5sBs0peflVvMrtgIMiZ9FdYPE+VWy5+X2AmeFg6Zl5W76HQUP6eYZQV5abZ +iiW9lY1TmqsqpTIDu/ZMy7pLknxV5E1vQy+wsihluDYydaQ4HWoNaY7QFb+x7TsvjJRi+cH 7By4jxohTWUuaukuMmT0eEaesWJSraAmxsffqJwDpsi0chZskuXjEm9gX6rY7MhzOZl7Vz9F +6MYTtTmT1mpkLAMWf1/JuKUCfnSAHRlDxUOAG6QSJoHWAGqYy3XiF9bN63yQ6xllloSbbMv P9VW0e/iFKMKEIvfIvAg0IrlPcfKAGuuT1axwIU7da/N7LOcXyDDSEUuSzvXL/BkWyjxuLzd LY6eTvC6ZT/fA5iS/PAUj0WbrWNrHQtQ5OY2+al2v6JdLu/w6IZJCBpTosOAOzzmre+31fk1 HKwqd9xRxC8= Message-ID: <6555ac49-189c-3999-865f-18c6ca9724b7@nomountain.net> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 21:37:52 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <118bc77b-6ba0-4c8b-9b31-327bf834583d@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eZudnRheh8cMxhAz0gYYD46ox1UXY2GLz" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 05:37:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --eZudnRheh8cMxhAz0gYYD46ox1UXY2GLz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UqgD7t5MW32gXxbNFsR1NlfipvHoE163L" --UqgD7t5MW32gXxbNFsR1NlfipvHoE163L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/21/20 4:53 PM, Christopher Wood wrote: > If this is the case, why are we already considering adopting and > moving forward with EDHOC? It's historically been a matter of policy that the IETF lets the market choose the winning technology, rather than choosing it ourselves. I think it's led to a lot of waste, both because we end up putting a lot of effort into things that never see much (or any) deployment and because we end up solving the same problems over and over and over again (talking to middleboxes, let me count the ways), but it strikes me as consistent with existing practice to do both EDHOC and cTLS, and then seeing what falls out. That is to say, if you really want to see EDHOC not move forward it's probably best to either provide a strictly technical argument or argue that the time has come for the IETF to start selecting the "correct" way to solve each problem. Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis --UqgD7t5MW32gXxbNFsR1NlfipvHoE163L-- --eZudnRheh8cMxhAz0gYYD46ox1UXY2GLz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl7wQ7AACgkQ37iRcpp2 24/c5Q//ZSeq2TO9Rol2qGzWVNPhmjDB9VqXb29+CVgUeHDP7s+4oaBTHRXIvH7a 1RY/6KcruCEME8PJ7H5ElGmZINIYkRh/sWVz4t5XZv+DWle05N43YUxO+a5PAehQ tTe+uFVen7elg9vsx+UxMuUdzRS0aUaoL3EIOEJ6nzku53tjixf/TmuHvdL2+KFk hHBVfMVt3GiaIkqIlt2BQto1M35O1hmRVU4df6GqtPhisG5tFzqD5WNGXrAPCkcu 6GNL4rLkxHVXg9E7IV1FziyW+4m66CZBIsLJwXkTWkqrI2xqEq3G/K6DiK6hWyL3 9vz9PSfjLWJ7hGBW/QLNrwL6iWJsnxMgiFxG0JD0nqc+TuRer1JfBrTNQNYVg4si nMDZNtvClwa5yA41CPg62I6txHbzYoS86AY/OWGSKFZ3t2xZXC4KaECj4jD/cL9B S7Qx/UDFFPeCYDiEBkRi08owpKeeRK6utHLNGdaNOZvMF9Sug3+3fJEF7JFSylVY 4nqziFGZCQhsJ8nVilPQIUJ6z2WopNmHnTGV8zYnlgNaaVV99CDNOS9zYUiZR1Z7 OPGmWwty926m5/Fy8UCX3qkyEsDXgDw2HAlelUHtqH8UV4TodiFTVfMaSF3646Us GudIjBvrJ4YicVLJH1WzBfZA5vK7XP79T8WNU9Lv3eFsfMp7O2U= =P/fV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eZudnRheh8cMxhAz0gYYD46ox1UXY2GLz-- From nobody Sun Jun 21 22:54:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325C33A092B for ; 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Mon, 22 Jun 2020 05:54:15 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Mali=B9a_Vu=E8ini=E6?= , "lake@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 Thread-Index: AQHWPZxvLJ+w4vBMzU261U8RplKJ76jkM3Gw Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 05:54:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: 25f1e0de-8c8a-4d98-8ca0-59116c1a6548.1 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: inria.fr; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;inria.fr; dmarc=none action=none header.from=arm.com; x-originating-ip: [80.92.123.2] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 06ee6738-42e6-4782-6acb-08d81670b635 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR08MB5490:|HE1PR0802MB2153: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true nodisclaimer: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508;OLM:10000; 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0802MB2153 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 05:54:29 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB3716109FB331AD080D64F978FA970AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I object to the adoption of EDHOC. My reason is primarily the worry about fragmentation in the IoT ecosystem b= eing introduced with this solution path. Over time EDHOC will be extended t= o cover all the use cases of TLS/DTLS. This will also lower interoperabilit= y for IoT-based solutions. Having said that I understand that there are different motivations at play = when working in the IETF. Hence, I can hardly blame consultants and researc= hers on this list to get excited about introducing more solutions. Unfortun= ately, we know from prior IETF security standardization that more solutions= have actually led to weaker security in deployments. Ciao Hannes From: Lake On Behalf Of Mali=B9a Vucinic Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:55 PM To: lake@ietf.org Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond b= y June 22 Hi all, Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is cha= rtered to work on. Given: - the LAKE working group charter, - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc, - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be furt= her developed, - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group, we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate = if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document. The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. Your LAKE chairs. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB3716109FB331AD080D64F978FA970AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I object to the adoption of EDHOC.

 

My reason is primarily the worry about fragmentation= in the IoT ecosystem being introduced with this solution path. Over time E= DHOC will be extended to cover all the use cases of TLS/DTLS. This will als= o lower interoperability for IoT-based solutions.

 

Having said that I understand that there are differe= nt motivations at play when working in the IETF. Hence, I can hardly blame = consultants and researchers on this list to get excited about introducing m= ore solutions. Unfortunately, we know from prior IETF security standardization that more solutions have actually= led to weaker security in deployments.

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

From: Lake <lake-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Mali=B9a Vucinic
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:55 PM
To: lake@ietf.org
Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - re= spond by June 22

 

Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group i= s chartered to work on. Given:

- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be furt= her developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group, 

we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra= ft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate = if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group docum= ent.

 

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB3716109FB331AD080D64F978FA970AM0PR08MB3716eurp_-- From nobody Sun Jun 21 23:50:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BAA3A0911 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 23:50:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vrJep-j2W5V for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 23:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BCEA3A0980 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2020 23:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49r0RQ5H6pzyRn; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 08:50:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 08:50:42 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 614501442.225633-18b460b9ea50231083ce14d5621a2777 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5A1395A6-A2E6-4992-981F-49CDFC659FE9@tzi.org> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> To: "lake@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 06:50:52 -0000 On 2020-06-22, at 07:54, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: >=20 > researchers on this list to get excited about introducing more = solutions Right, thank you for reminding me that I still have to reply. I=E2=80=99m quite happy that EDHOC has caused CTLS to emerge. That will = certainly cause some fragmentation, but it is a step long overdue for = TLS/DTLS. I believe we need to continue working on creating the = environment that will lead to CTLS actually getting completed. I = don=E2=80=99t mind if Hannes calls this environment =E2=80=9Cgetting = excited=E2=80=9D; creating mindshare is often how technology progresses. I don=E2=80=99t think that CTLS obviates the need for EDHOC, for reasons = that should by now well-expressed inside and outside this mailing list. So I am in favor of adopting draft-selander-lake-edhoc as a working = group document of LAKE. I=E2=80=99d make some meta-comments on design for choice, but those = would just lead to more unneeded discussion. Can choice damage the = Internet or its applications? It sure can. Perspectives on this = differ, and few people will manage to control the influence on this = perspective from their desire for a specific outcome. Competition has = already managed to significantly improve both sides. Enough said. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Jun 22 06:20:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E8E3A0CF7 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 06:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=XLzJFLF4; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=XLzJFLF4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxWCfoZSrrge for ; Mon, 22 Jun 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5PR0801MB1764 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 13:59:09 -0000 --_000_DB7PR08MB3482851CE0E241F9493F9B17E2970DB7PR08MB3482eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I oppose the adoption of EDHOC as I believe EDHOC and OSCORE are reinventin= g the wheel. There seems to be this view that TLS and DTLS are unsuitable for IoT and te= chnologies such as LPWAN and low power wireless PANs (e.g. 802.15.4). Howev= er, I would like to point out that we were successfully deploying: 1. Network admission using PANA, EAP and EC certificate-based TLS with Zigb= ee IP [1] 2. Application layer security using EC certificate-based TLS with SEP 2.0 [= 2] This was ten years ago on microcontrollers with considerably less capabilit= y than those available now. Zigbee IP never gained much traction, however t= he successor to Zigbee IP, Thread, also deploys: 1. Network admission using EC JPAKE and EC certificate-based DTLS and CoAP-= based relay mechanism [3] The reason for using TLS in both cases as a basis was entirely due to not w= anting to reinvent the wheel and come up with a new approach, as we acknowl= edged the hard work and effort put in by the TLS working group in not only = coming up with the protocols and ciphersuites but also the significant amou= nt of scrutiny and testing that implementations had gone through, hardening= both the implementations and the standards themselves. There is no doubt that the key exchange transactions we used could be made = more efficient but, in my view, the correct approach is to build upon the s= olid foundation of TLS through efforts such as cTLS and not to try and star= t again. Robert [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials/slides-83-lwig-5 [2] https://www.ei.se/Documents/Projekt/Funktionskrav%20elm%C3%A4tare/2017/= SEP%202pkt0.pdf [3] https://www.threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/support/CommissioningWh= itePaper_658_2.pdf From: Lake On Behalf Of Mali=B9a Vucinic Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:55 PM To: lake@ietf.org Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond b= y June 22 Hi all, Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is cha= rtered to work on. Given: - the LAKE working group charter, - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc, - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be furt= her developed, - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group, we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate = if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document. The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. Your LAKE chairs. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB7PR08MB3482851CE0E241F9493F9B17E2970DB7PR08MB3482eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I oppose the adoption of EDHOC as I believe EDHOC an= d OSCORE are reinventing the wheel.

 

There seems to be this view that TLS and DTLS are un= suitable for IoT and technologies such as LPWAN and low power wireless PANs= (e.g. 802.15.4). However, I would like to point out that we were successfu= lly deploying:

 

1. Network admission using PANA, EAP and EC certific= ate-based TLS with Zigbee IP [1]

2. Application layer security using EC certificate-b= ased TLS with SEP 2.0 [2]

 

This was ten years ago on microcontrollers with cons= iderably less capability than those available now. Zigbee IP never gained m= uch traction, however the successor to Zigbee IP, Thread, also deploys:

 

1. Network admission using EC JPAKE and EC certifica= te-based DTLS and CoAP-based relay mechanism [3]

 

The reason for using TLS in both cases as a basis wa= s entirely due to not wanting to reinvent the wheel and come up with a new = approach, as we acknowledged the hard work and effort put in by the TLS wor= king group in not only coming up with the protocols and ciphersuites but also the significant amount of scrutiny= and testing that implementations had gone through, hardening both the impl= ementations and the standards themselves.

 

There is no doubt that the key exchange transactions= we used could be made more efficient but, in my view, the correct approach= is to build upon the solid foundation of TLS through efforts such as cTLS = and not to try and start again.

 

Robert

 

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials/slides-83-lwig-5=

[2] https://www.ei.se/Documents/Projekt/Funktionskrav%20elm%C3%A4tare/2017/SEP%= 202pkt0.pdf

[3] https://www.threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/support/CommissioningWhiteP= aper_658_2.pdf

 

From: Lake <lake-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf O= f Mali=B9a Vucinic

Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:55 PM

To: lake@ietf.org

Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander= -lake-edhoc - respond by June 22

 

Hi all,

 

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requireme= nts document, we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE o= ur working group is chartered to work on. Given:

 

- the LAKE working group charter,

- a wide community support over an extensive period = of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,

- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working grou= p where it will be further developed,

- that no other drafts have been submitted for consi= deration of the LAKE working group,

 

we are now launching a call for adoption for https:/= /tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

 

Please reply to this thread whether you support the = adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a w= orking group document.

 

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.<= /o:p>

 

Your LAKE chairs.

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB7PR08MB3482851CE0E241F9493F9B17E2970DB7PR08MB3482eurp_-- From nobody Mon Jun 22 14:17:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47783A11C5 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:17:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pcQHI1_WRQsM for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0890B3A11CA for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id d4so14429106otk.2 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:17:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rVU/ukJP6qTKxwTUy1NYtAt9NECrvJouvWteHs2p17c=; b=p98WDcsw97CQ8F2dgmsJesFLAeCHzyfGR6YCqvM3ov6/qCf+v9K1Tpdl+2MzZ1vOzW QrNcsgHnMV7SCN0QbtnEe7k4zEj7km4Vxz66dgt4Z2BvlvWWtQddPk+U6OzRhVk6pcp4 o/uJ5JDxoWHn3sp6FxCE0lrZSjTcGCROGIe6pjgYGjhsrftnyl6mhHxMbvHYekRoSrqp 8vHBup/f3EDgtUqPYOd+sapt/6SNabxL10eVeAT2RZ8eb58bIJwvD7lvIhqzjXiak4Ou 586jwvTNW6D57zbitj+VdKztDoVEx5BJB63NtVCDJs1mrc0GO6mzezOQ8+nFtUbHaMaZ OevQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rVU/ukJP6qTKxwTUy1NYtAt9NECrvJouvWteHs2p17c=; b=n/wZnWjTOt6SOMLpy83tBbIDaxZw+6GzLk3rgsE9x/8pWVoN4fGuD1ds98kR3kz79D d+NaCnR3wJDgZBz8hRw3+jjeCVUtK3SGYNf9HlOIuATWyW2M9HkwnrstKoK3MLaFeJqn eP5iJ53zSRTBaJaPqfAUFCFCY0U2RGweMUIi8JpepMdm4cWL4SKk9e9k9nQw7FQQCWqG a4KQnF8IaZG6FEmPi/NEIMIpTfaXgBUllnBg7ZGle4Ra0aaz1nl9RDRt4jdgq278QXp4 sPJSpYqez6hUSy/eAfEJ2iRbgH39Ako6MXy0foO8N8WOGDGKPYrWmHLZFecjh3tBuveK Yo7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532idYyZaaQcdZkxUQJtXfXfT3bh0hBf8NyOxZILLsH7IuMVnf05 al2Qn76un9L2Urbu6qLsi41uv9OrSfgc5s+hMiw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKArzqkj/IlHD2u2LSiU9cta+vl885XkQUI0xtrGSRjeUsTDidzedOlbWuro7mRZKGdISuPn87fmObEK3HZzw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ccb:: with SMTP id r11mr16702222otn.209.1592860662228; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:17:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <5A1395A6-A2E6-4992-981F-49CDFC659FE9@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <5A1395A6-A2E6-4992-981F-49CDFC659FE9@tzi.org> From: Shahid Raza Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 23:17:31 +0200 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "lake@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2ec3105a8b2c5ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 21:17:45 -0000 --000000000000f2ec3105a8b2c5ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A strong +1 for adoption. It's been discussed repeatedly and has shown by empirical numbers that OSCORE and EDHOC are lightweight and better-suited for IoT use cases. Best, Shahid Director of Cybersecurity at RISE On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 8:50 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-06-22, at 07:54, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: > > > > researchers on this list to get excited about introducing more solution= s > > Right, thank you for reminding me that I still have to reply. > > I=E2=80=99m quite happy that EDHOC has caused CTLS to emerge. That will = certainly > cause some fragmentation, but it is a step long overdue for TLS/DTLS. I > believe we need to continue working on creating the environment that will > lead to CTLS actually getting completed. I don=E2=80=99t mind if Hannes = calls this > environment =E2=80=9Cgetting excited=E2=80=9D; creating mindshare is ofte= n how technology > progresses. > > I don=E2=80=99t think that CTLS obviates the need for EDHOC, for reasons = that > should by now well-expressed inside and outside this mailing list. > So I am in favor of adopting draft-selander-lake-edhoc as a working group > document of LAKE. > > I=E2=80=99d make some meta-comments on design for choice, but those would= just > lead to more unneeded discussion. Can choice damage the Internet or its > applications? It sure can. Perspectives on this differ, and few people > will manage to control the influence on this perspective from their desir= e > for a specific outcome. Competition has already managed to significantly > improve both sides. Enough said. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --000000000000f2ec3105a8b2c5ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A strong=C2=A0+1 for a= doption.=C2=A0


=

= Best,

Shahid

Director of Cybersecurity at RISE=



On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 8:50 AM Carsten Bormann &l= t;cabo@tzi.org> wr= ote:
On 2020-06-= 22, at 07:54, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>
> researchers on this list to get excited about introducing more solutio= ns

Right, thank you for reminding me that I still have to reply.

I=E2=80=99m quite happy that EDHOC has caused CTLS to emerge.=C2=A0 That wi= ll certainly cause some fragmentation, but it is a step long overdue for TL= S/DTLS.=C2=A0 I believe we need to continue working on creating the environ= ment that will lead to CTLS actually getting completed.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80= =99t mind if Hannes calls this environment =E2=80=9Cgetting excited=E2=80= =9D; creating mindshare is often how technology progresses.

I don=E2=80=99t think that CTLS obviates the need for EDHOC, for reasons th= at should by now well-expressed inside and outside this mailing list.
So I am in favor of adopting draft-selander-lake-edhoc as a working group d= ocument of LAKE.

I=E2=80=99d make some meta-comments on design for choice, but those would j= ust lead to more unneeded discussion.=C2=A0 Can choice damage the Internet = or its applications?=C2=A0 It sure can.=C2=A0 Perspectives on this differ, = and few people will manage to control the influence on this perspective fro= m their desire for a specific outcome.=C2=A0 Competition has already manage= d to significantly improve both sides.=C2=A0 Enough said.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

--
Lake mailing list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
--000000000000f2ec3105a8b2c5ae-- From nobody Mon Jun 22 14:49:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170833A11E8 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CctZ72YxjGa2 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD7B3A11E6 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id o38so5233382qtf.6 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:49:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kW7igc50suyI5n52GHzUHwAfxjdpuRudwE9xCodJ5Aw=; b=Vvdee1rPD5a6ZZvcCNgPmf3qsxl1pO0+YzdZE59iPZBV7Fp4wGb2jNJkkDJGqCMOte 94PcZfexrxYDrigBbKCG0SRquZyQxalA54L1zwMbLWzZ3EQ0EcihwBdgUbE79sJo9btY gQDKhOxop+3nN5/Uh8ivGvzGOemAWBWsGP9MoDNkkBIqpXisdXLNx2ZSzaHn5W7wQOus MSE2voTFynLn4PCyDXfvZaVa2HW+mWuzpFsMP6WE8hkuY9oA0p3k3N12H/ZxfbSEnXZX VnlM2Xk0IeVE+8DPmG/XF7AkvHmR4QFN921RZzk4V04o9kOeBee+/UwixXylMtmr/+vb yrKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kW7igc50suyI5n52GHzUHwAfxjdpuRudwE9xCodJ5Aw=; b=VANJZFNwD6i/njIY008/j31I9RtGJ7Jv5i/mC664iS8hyQ/sBtU7TLXGz6/V+7Ucv5 9/OlcDZy6FLK1d3NNyBWfSJlvU2O4THKbFsxG7qSPelu0LHYvXezvXMuMYAvMathS7z0 l41BFm05QyBH7LV9F5iWfAi2tsu9v/NK03ixGoJf+hwoYbNRgrPxFtlXR9+J7nG/MK8e fMr0Km9oKco6GkvyCnFS+XQBaa1wWyLD6nZ5P2X7Vfs1akE5UnPQSgQxf9EEQGylgHRp Q/BVJMgUIlxlafIcfsFX/T/cqj2nGRjBY3MN1X/G0iFDTJnS2ix+1jj6xpZCUwBSZC4c KwTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530QfJPLHrqBFnT2kYdV4jgnikZM8YRB09qDhjKR5JDwP7Ht1hbz 6RGFDHJPfXHAe31R8nTkaMt/ZwiRs/xeboS6o0Lz7zv7v7mHNw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz1i2Jqxafk1gh0qFvHpUoDb86B1zHAfPL9crlIiJv4bRA2n5jCIScTCDqs2q9MwzLtZlwbR17PwwSmBEj1fD4= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:346e:: with SMTP id v43mr17424844qtb.265.1592862565227; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 17:49:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Cc: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000606e3505a8b33751" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 21:49:29 -0000 --000000000000606e3505a8b33751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I oppose adoption of EDHOC, for both process and technical reasons. At the process level, it is ridiculous to move for adoption immediately after declaring consensus on the requirements. Unless you're going to use the requirements to evaluate solutions, there's no point having them, and there has been no discussion on this list as to how the two solutions compare in light of the agreed requirements. Mali=C5=A1a, Your call for adoption also incorrectly suggests that because = cTLS has been adopted by TLS and no other drafts have been submitted to LAKE, then EDHOC is basically the only option. That is not true -- the group could declare consensus that the focus should be on cTLS, declare victory, and close down. That would also fulfill the charter. I continue to believe that cTLS is a better option for solving this problem. From the beginning, those of us involved in cTLS have pointed out that having more choices for security protocols in the ecosystem has costs. We have also put forward concrete protocol proposals, backed by implementation, that show that cTLS can meet the requried constraints. Neither argument has been addressed by the EDHOC proponents. More directly, it is hard to evaluate whether EDHOC is a suitable starting point given that it has been a very dynamic target over the last several versions, and earlier iterations have had security issues. Starting from the thoroughly-vetted baseline of TLS is a safer approach than designing from whole cloth. One can focus on specific questions around the things that are being changed, rather starting analysis all over again. I also believe that the IETF should focus its work on protocols that will have real-world impact. It is clear that EDHOC is popular among academics. Opinion appears much more split among people who work on shipping code for real IoT devices. Until we can get some real consensus among actual implementors, we should not move forward. --Richard On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 9:54 AM Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: > Hi all, > > Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are > proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is > chartered to work on. Given: > > - the LAKE working group charter, > - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for > draft-selander-lake-edhoc, > - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be > further developed, > - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE > working group, > > we are now launching a call for adoption for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. > > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicat= e > if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document= . > > The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. > > Your LAKE chairs. > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake > --000000000000606e3505a8b33751 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

I oppose adoption of EDHOC, for both proces= s and technical reasons.

At the process level, it is ridiculous to m= ove for adoption immediately after declaring consensus on the requirements.= =C2=A0 Unless you're going to use the requirements to evaluate solution= s, there's no point having them, and there has been no discussion on th= is list as to how the two solutions compare in light of the agreed requirem= ents.

Mali=C5=A1a, Your call for adoption also incorrectly suggests = that because cTLS has been adopted by TLS and no other drafts have been sub= mitted to LAKE, then EDHOC is basically the only option.=C2=A0 That is not = true -- the group could declare consensus that the focus should be on cTLS,= declare victory, and close down.=C2=A0 That would also fulfill the charter= .

I continue to believe that cTLS is a better option for solving thi= s problem.=C2=A0 From the beginning, those of us involved in cTLS have poin= ted out that having more choices for security protocols in the ecosystem ha= s costs.=C2=A0 We have also put forward concrete protocol proposals, backed= by implementation, that show that cTLS can meet the requried constraints.= =C2=A0 Neither argument has been addressed by the EDHOC proponents.

= More directly, it is hard to evaluate whether EDHOC is a suitable starting = point given that it has been a very dynamic target over the last several ve= rsions, and earlier iterations have had security issues.=C2=A0 Starting fro= m the thoroughly-vetted baseline of TLS is a safer approach than designing = from whole cloth.=C2=A0 One can focus on specific questions around the thin= gs that are being changed, rather starting analysis all over again.

= I also believe that the IETF should focus its work on protocols that will h= ave real-world impact.=C2=A0 It is clear that EDHOC is popular among academ= ics.=C2=A0 Opinion appears much more split among people who work on shippin= g code for real IoT devices.=C2=A0 Until we can get some real consensus amo= ng actual implementors, we should not move forward.

--Richard
<= br>
On Mon,= Jun 8, 2020 at 9:54 AM Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 <malisa.vucinic@inria.fr> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi all,

Since we now have a rough consensus on = the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the=C2= =A0LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given:
- the LAKE working group charter,
- a wide community support over an ex= tensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption of the = cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed,
= - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group,=C2=A0

we are now launching a call for adoption for=C2= =A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01= .

Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and = indicate if you are ready to review if this draft=C2=A0becomes a working gr= oup document.

The call for adoption ends on June 2= 2nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.
--
Lake mailing list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G7jmC88g4NROHMEUZJxRKaOiUiEqWukRN" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 22:07:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --G7jmC88g4NROHMEUZJxRKaOiUiEqWukRN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="GBZtNCxFJrEcGfot80jMKQiB4G359c180"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Richard Barnes , =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= Cc: lake@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: --GBZtNCxFJrEcGfot80jMKQiB4G359c180 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------08E4ED405167495C9A11EF4A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------08E4ED405167495C9A11EF4A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 22/06/2020 22:49, Richard Barnes wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > I oppose adoption of EDHOC, for both process and technical reasons. I don't see how your process reasons add up tbh, but maybe I'm wrong... >=20 > At the process level, it is ridiculous to move for adoption immediately= > after declaring consensus on the requirements. =20 That is kinda funny tbh. This topic has been discussed for a significant duration. IMO people have clearly reached their reasoned conclusions either way well before now. I see no real possibility that more time will change positions and no new information being offered that might have that effect. > Unless you're going to use > the requirements to evaluate solutions, there's no point having them, a= nd > there has been no discussion on this list as to how the two solutions > compare in light of the agreed requirements. It seems clear to me that both edhoc and cTLS can meet the requirements. Feel free to correct me as to why that is wrong. >=20 > Mali=C5=A1a, Your call for adoption also incorrectly suggests that beca= use cTLS > has been adopted by TLS and no other drafts have been submitted to LAKE= , > then EDHOC is basically the only option. That is not true -- the group= > could declare consensus that the focus should be on cTLS, declare victo= ry, > and close down. That would also fulfill the charter. If the consensus were to not adopt edhoc, I will be arguing to close the WG as it'd be pointless. That seems to me to amount to the same decision that you argue for above. To be clear about something I've said before: as a chair, I am not personally willing to put up with procrastinating further on what is a clear choice that needs to be made and on which I believe all informed participants have reached their own considered decisions. There are non-trivial arguments on both sides, but I don't see that there have been any new arguments nor information for some time. It is time to pick or get off the picking-pot. Cheers, S. >=20 > I continue to believe that cTLS is a better option for solving this > problem. From the beginning, those of us involved in cTLS have pointed= out > that having more choices for security protocols in the ecosystem has > costs. We have also put forward concrete protocol proposals, backed by= > implementation, that show that cTLS can meet the requried constraints. > Neither argument has been addressed by the EDHOC proponents. >=20 > More directly, it is hard to evaluate whether EDHOC is a suitable start= ing > point given that it has been a very dynamic target over the last severa= l > versions, and earlier iterations have had security issues. Starting fr= om > the thoroughly-vetted baseline of TLS is a safer approach than designin= g > from whole cloth. One can focus on specific questions around the thing= s > that are being changed, rather starting analysis all over again. >=20 > I also believe that the IETF should focus its work on protocols that wi= ll > have real-world impact. It is clear that EDHOC is popular among > academics. Opinion appears much more split among people who work on > shipping code for real IoT devices. Until we can get some real consens= us > among actual implementors, we should not move forward. >=20 > --Richard >=20 > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 9:54 AM Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 > wrote: >=20 >> Hi all, >> >> Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we a= re >> proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group= is >> chartered to work on. Given: >> >> - the LAKE working group charter, >> - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for >> draft-selander-lake-edhoc, >> - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be= >> further developed, >> - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LA= KE >> working group, >> >> we are now launching a call for adoption for >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >> >> Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indi= cate >> if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group docum= ent.. >> >> The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >> >> Your LAKE chairs. >> -- >> Lake mailing list >> Lake@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >> >=20 >=20 --------------08E4ED405167495C9A11EF4A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; 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--------------08E4ED405167495C9A11EF4A-- --GBZtNCxFJrEcGfot80jMKQiB4G359c180-- --G7jmC88g4NROHMEUZJxRKaOiUiEqWukRN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl7xK5MACgkQWrL68XsX K+riNg//Xo+53w1Zn9Gp8rCBa8QLiFMV95td23EFKJXwQw0sUi/NFO2EF8U2EWQU K4EAT0e/fvfoXh1RhUvPCnPZdB/KhWTuJOTeK0g7z74pW4D+akLm8XchaqOu4kes uPTrPisrabVbBleoJiGjKyFNUx8FtpXouofcD06g/Pq8IEVLK4e9kovBnH6SmUz4 rss9D6JPZp20Gcd2P5TGAPr03VzaNHfYbfxI1cSjiID90ebf10QgND8CmHbELY7W IQGo0ML3RJVVhgMq2lTHDy5xQj966ylQKC/oB2H1/UuGamXIr236GYNe9Meo4c+F Wr8RvrKz2UJHxrABI0jdxz9mqFSC2ryonxZghgpfDWIHFexmrxnUQnpTnJQphqRn 14GJSKL9cWqBt1B1jYgTcqhMX32IDUYm5tHW+PhCmx2SFtjogaFWknDJdIKE2GNV 70y4bm49IQX91cF3sgS1Mq8lTNWJsPyEghMUc8Sx/pquEiQ93TtcXN+idlRl45lC 5aJQ+UCSuW+rdBKtYB6UTSTlKKmZerE4q+a9o2X630Zqe1N1HT89mAjIt0DoNrEr dSToqiTz9iDQ+9Wp+6HEpFZEKyVud7PZRZo1SygKC+Si1VaiV0lEm2kBYt/0xOGE 3OUWqOuY0XI08h6oTazWsbIr0evSjIyzgFKTNanjuRFbHkuJCDI= =x5Gy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G7jmC88g4NROHMEUZJxRKaOiUiEqWukRN-- From nobody Mon Jun 22 15:36:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A2C3A1248 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 15:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:d1fb:bb54:e45f:560]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r76sm14205502qka.30.2020.06.22.15.36.11 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jun 2020 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT) References: <0f8e9d07-ffc0-7a0d-8aba-a3ea65937c1b@gmail.com> To: lake@ietf.org From: Rene Struik X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <0f8e9d07-ffc0-7a0d-8aba-a3ea65937c1b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39b11e50-6641-7c2b-6bb4-0da238135a8a@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 18:36:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0f8e9d07-ffc0-7a0d-8aba-a3ea65937c1b@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9DE22EF2EAFAE06B7FE550F8" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 22:36:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9DE22EF2EAFAE06B7FE550F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear colleagues: My original assessment, as articulated during the Lake WG charter discussion (see [1]) still stands). I suggest rejecting this draft. It is unclear whether one solves the right problem (apart from whether one solves the stated problem right). However, I have already articulated this during the rechartering discussion. In IEEE PAR discussions, there is a requirement to describe a "why should one care" justification for an effort, where - if one would do this with IETF Edhoc - the justification seems to be "we can use slightly smaller enodings" than with, e.g., DTLS or with TLS, while reusing virtually all of the same crypto protocol flows, construct details, etc. Question is whether this is enough. Some pain points of the draft (imho): -- lack of flexibility and consideration of the entire lifecycle. Lots of rosy counting techniques for message flows do not hold up if one does not use "bare minimum" settings (e.g., by having certs instead of raw public keys that are assumed pre-installed); wants to have better DoS attack resiliency (where having only three flows does not help at all, etc). These also completely brush away the message flows required for provisioning (it may very well be that provisioning of each device takes more message flows than the, essentially, authenticated key agreement scheme, where co-design would have enabled one to design a set of protcols where one optimizes for total cost, rather than piecemeal minima. {As a side note, did one consider what, e.g., using "NOOB" [2] with EDHOC entails in terms of message flows, latencies, etc.? -- lack of support for reusing implementations, where hardware/software co-design may not have support for encodings/decodings (and where this now has to be included in the trusted platform boundary). It is unclear whether engineering and certification headaches have been carefully assessed. It is also unclear whether the complementary part of the system lifecycle now is also forced to use all the same encoding/decoding, etc. (an ossification risk by itself). -- unclear trade-off communication cost vs. computational cost: here, I will simply refer to the very expensive method that uses a static-DH key (it leads to size savings, but significantly increases computational cost and, there, also DoS risk). Some other questions: -- why does one need both signature-based and static-DH-based methods. If the objective is to be lean, then having many Chinese menu options (term credited to Peter Gutman) does not help. -- some of the ciphersuite recommendations are somewhat odd. Having co-authors of this draft advocate EdDSA, while claiming this to be insecure (given easy fault attacks, esp, in IoT-setting?), in draft-mattsson-cfrg-det-sigs-with-noise-02 seems to be inconsistent. Why not simply use ECDSA (if one wishes ECDSA25519) and suggest a non-clamped version of ECDH (like all the co-factor ECDH schemes apart from RFC7748 do.? Why not supporting NIST curves, why enforcing both SHA512 and SHA256 at the same time, why pure-EdDSA (which requires two data passes), etc.? Overall, I think pursuing this draft seems to leave too many questions to be answered to allow a positive verdict. I know this draft has been pursued for quite a long time, but there are too many fundamental questions that are unanswered and it is unclear what design motivations really have been (except for low message size counts in an optimistic table). I suggest therefore there is no reason to adopt this. My comments as during the chartering exercise also still stand. Ref: [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lake/EOpWc97_wtku5mVTtztTsJlhCks/ {See also below for copy of that e-mail RS to Benjamin Kaduk/Lake WG email list;  Thu Oct 3, 2019, 11.14am EDT, Subject Re: [Lake] Lake charter call for comment] } [2] draft-aura-eap-noob-08 Hi Ben: Thanks for your response. Some brief feedback below. I appreciate the analysis of how EDHOC (or cTLS) would fit into various radio schemes and protocol usages; that's perhaps more in-depth than we usually need to go at charter time but is definitely in scope for the kind of WG work I'm thinking of. RS>> My motivation for tackling the more general scenario (part #c of my comments on the draft charter) was based on closer scrutiny of how the outcome of the draft effort would fit-in with the target network environments mentioned in the draft charter (NB-IoT, 6TiSCH, and LoRaWAN). In other words: do we solve the right problem, vs. do we solve a stated problem right? From this scrutiny, it seems clear that the answer may be negative. As such, I do think this should be part of a sanity check for the charter. It is somewhat disappointing that, in the case of one of the two main triggers (6tisch), an answer to my question of more than half a year ago (March 5, 2019, 9.05am EST, seehttps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/_mjOGfpgvKFu1HBagIZcrLLG_YU) is still missing and that evidence of careful thought in this area is, more than half a year later, still scant. This makes me wonder how one could defend keeping this application domain into the draft charter (presuming evidence-based decision processes). <> I do think that people interested in real-life deployments have no choice but to consider the entire device and network lifecycle and have to consider the multi-party nature of protocol interactions to get a device up and running, change device ownership, etc. These topics seem to intersect quite well with topics areas in the t2trg charter, and seem to align with long-term issues with the IAB (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2850#section-2.1); hence, me mentioning those as potential suitable platforms (whether one has to steer, I am not sure; providing a platform might be enough). It is hard to assess whether people on *this* [lake] list would be interested in this broader picture; however, I am not that concerned whether people who wish to see real-life deployment on massive scale happen will. < Hi Rene, > > Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. To cover the several fronts: > > It seems that you can accept the general tenor of the draft charter, but > want to revert the change made in response to (e.g.) > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lake/OupmIV74eHqBcb-X0lsIB4q41pM . > While I agree that we should have an open view, I also know that the > trigger for having a LAKE BoF at all was a continued push to get some > disposition for EDHOC, and I think that many (if not most) people, myself > included, expect that EDHOC is the leading contender for adoption by a LAKE > WG. The proposed language about "starting point" is in pretty common usage > and is (I think) generally accepted in the IETF and IESG as indicating a > presumption that a draft is the likely candidate but leaving open the > possibility to adapt as circumstances change. I think that going back to a > "will consider [a list of things]" formulation does not really reflect the > expectations of most people, and prefer to use a formulation that gives as > accurate a picture as possible, while still leaving openness for change. > > You also ponder having a core key exchange framework without explicit > framing (so as to be adaptable to hardware, etc.); I think we've seen > roughly analogous situations with some algorithms that came out of the > CFRG: once in the IETF, we end up having to specify the details, and don't > always have great knowledge of the tradeoffs involved. There's been a > trend of asking the CFRG to be more concrete in their output and have fewer > options to choose from, which in my experience has worked more effectively > for the IETF. So, while having a somewhat malleable abstract model can > still be useful (and in many cases, a concrete protocol can be stripped > down to one), I lean towards having a concrete protocol with framing, that > is directly usable by IoT protocols with a minimum need for customization. > > You seem to be pushing back against making an assumption that [a compact > framing of] TLS is/should be the "general solution", and that's a fair > point. Do you also object to doing work on cTLS, or just to assuming that > it can meet the "general problem" discussed at the LAKE BoF? > > I appreciate the analysis of how EDHOC (or cTLS) would fit into various > radio schemes and protocol usages; that's perhaps more in-depth than we > usually need to go at charter time but is definitely in scope for the kind > of WG work I'm thinking of. I especially appreciate the illustration of > the inherent multi-party nature of the processes involved, and the > sentiment that a consolidated approach to the problem could do better than > the piecemeal approach. That said, I don't know that we have a clear > enough understanding of the problem space and how to approach it that I > could try to charter a WG to do the work; I think your suggestion of trying > to have the IAB or T2TRG steer that discussion is reasonable, and I can try > to see if the IAB is interested. I am curious, though, how many people on > this list would be willing to put some time into such a discussion. > > Thanks, > > Ben > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:06:13AM -0400, Rene Struik wrote: >> Hi Ben: >> >> Please find below my feedback on the draft charter for LAKE WG, as follows: >> a) Feedback on the draft charter you put forward below. >> b) Gap between "LAKE next steps" on mailing list and actual LAKE BOF >> discussion during IETF-105 in Montreal. >> c) Motivation for tackling a more general scenario. >> {For some earlier discussion on items b) and c) above, see my previous >> emails on this on the LAKE mailing list (condensed below for conciseness)} >> >> Note RS: I am not against chartering this effort, as long as the more >> general scenario is also chartered (where the more general scenario >> would provide a long-term system solution). If there is only one narrow >> effort coming out of the LAKE BOF, I think we are heading  in the wrong >> direction. >> >> Ad a): Comments on draft charter you put forward (email Benjamin Kaduk, >> Sep 4, 2019, 12.56am EDT): >> >> In my opinion, the description of the goals should more clearly >> articulate that one keeps an open view with respect to potential >> solutions: currently, this primarily singles out >> draft-selander-ace-cose-edhe ("EDHOC") and any input from the TLS WG as >> targets of evaluation. What about replacing the last sentence of this >> paragraph by the more neutral and open phrase "The WG will also >> evaluate prior work from the TLS WG and derivatives thereof, and >> draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe", as used during the LAKE BOF (see >> slides-105-lake-proposed-charter-01). >> >> Having a concise authenticated key agreement scheme (AKC) seems to have >> merit, independent of very specific encoding and compression >> conventions. This makes me wonder whether the core AKC functionality and >> the representation hereof could be described separately, where the >> latter is simply an encoding that could be "stripped". If so, this seems >> to make it easier to implement securely on existing chipsets with crypto >> functionality on board. (Now that we are at this, does OSCORE/COSE have >> sufficient syntax to describe certificate chains?) >> >> Ad b): LAKE next steps on mailing list vs. actual LAKE BOF discussion >> during IETF-105 in Montreal (email RS of Aug 26, 2019, 11.21pm EDT): >> >> From the discussion at the LAKE BoF, it seemed there was strong support >> for also tackling the broader scenario (triggered by David Thaler's >> suggested dichotomy at the microphone). (Note: according to the draft >> LAKE BOF minutes [minutes-105-lake-00], there was strong agreement that >> both OSCORE key exchange (the "narrow" problem) and the broader >> constrained scenario were problems that needed solving, with strong >> willingness work on this (15-17 hands for OSCORE, 10-11 for general >> case, few overlapping). ) >> >> Nevertheless, I have some trouble seeing suggested next steps on >> tackling this broader problem. After I asked on elaboration on how one >> would see this broader topic ("general purpose lightweight AKE") find a >> home in terms of next steps (in my mind, this is not simply "TLS with >> compressed representation"), it was suggested - roughly speaking - that >> TLS was the more general approach. >> >> >> Ad c): Motivation for tackling a more general scenario: >> >> Technically, it seems that ECDHOC and TLS share a similar crypto design >> philosophy, protocol flow framework, and instantiation, where - simply >> put - EDHOC just uses a more concise encoding of an ECDH+Sign (Sigma) >> protocol and cuts some other unneeded wood. >> >> Arguably, the general IoT case cannot presume a Client/Server model, nor >> semi-infinite resources on one of the entities. Moreover, the >> communication path is relatively more costly (both in terms of time, >> routing, network enrollment, and DoS attack surface), and devices may be >> cheap, but should operate securely in a hostile environment, over their >> entire lifecycle, without much user intervention. This calls for a much >> more ambitious approach than an encoding exercise. What is needed is a >> system approach, taking into account the entire device's lifecycle, with >> considerations of threats. >> >> To illustrate that a simple (smartly encoded) AKC is not enough, I will >> consider the use of EDHOC in LoRaWAN, 6TiSCH, and IoT bootstrapping >> considered (for quoted references, see Section 8.7 of >> draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-14 [Note: some analysis may apply to other >> AKCs than ECDHOC as well]). >> >> i) 6TiSCH use case (draft-ietf-6tisch-dtsecurity-zerotouch-join-04): >> It is unclear from the -04 draft how EDHOC would work with 6TiSCH. >> According to the author, the previous 03-draft was "shit", "need[ed] to >> rewrite from scratch" (April 2, 2019); the 04-version had a slot, >> without slides, at IETF-105, but minutes suggest future of draft was >> questioned. My understanding from discussions in the hallway of IETF-105 >> was that intention was to combine the first two flows of EDHOC and then >> simply combine this with the Join-Request and Join-Response command in >> the 6tisch-minimal draft (where, to my understanding, the idea seemed to >> be to "simply" plug-in the computed shared key as shared key in the join >> request/response flows. Just a cautionary remark here: there is much >> more to security and implementability of cryptographic protocols then >> mechanically making protocol flows work by mix-and-matching partial >> flows... the zerotouch draft also mentions lots of other protocol flows >> over many hops (BRSKI, etc.); 6TiSCH also has a parameter exchange >> between JRC (=central manager) and "pledge" (joining node) following >> network enrollment. Conclusion: optimizing the AKC by itself does have >> little impact on system-level device enrollment overhead; a more general >> method might, though. >> >> ii) LoRaWAN ([LoRa1]; [LoRa2] ref not studied since dead link): >> Fig. 3 suggests use of EDHOC to derive key that would subsequently used >> with join request/response (similar to 6TiSCH speculation above). Fig. 5 >> of [LoRa1] paper suggest LoRa has 41-47 bytes header and 71-176 bytes >> for EDHOC. >> >> iii) IoT bootstrapping [Perez18]: >> Bootstrap is followed by ECDHOC (see Section 5.1 (Fig. 3); Section 5.2 >> (EDHOC); Table 1 (Section 7.1 - testbed); bootstrap (7 >> flows)/credentials (2 flows)/EDHOC (3 flows); Fig. 9: total message >> sizes). From the description, tables, and message size comparison, it is >> - again - clear that having an optimized AKC in a sea of unoptimized >> message exchanges is not going to make much of a difference. >> >> Overall conclusion: in all cases, EDHOC overhead seems to be relatively >> small portion of total message size. Moreover, in IoT bootstrapping case >> (iii) and 6TiSCH (i), provisioning, etc. also takes quite large >> overhead. In almost all cases, actual protocols are not 2-party >> protocols, but 3- or more-party protocols (e.g., [with 6TiSCH], Joining >> Node - Neighboring Router part of network - Security Manager (many hops >> away)). This suggests, that one may be well off to design protocols that >> takes more than 2 parties into account, rather than simply having a >> 2-party AKC. >> >> The IETF has many, many drafts focusing on addressing partial design >> spaces (e.g., Anima, NOOB, pwd-based scheme, certiicate enrollment, >> etc.). However, pointwise local minimization does not necessarily lad to >> global minima: designs that take system lifecycle design into account >> may do so, though. This also may allow study of DoS attack issues, that >> usually are tackled by all-powerful devices that IoT simply does not have. >> >> Suggestion: tackle the more general problem, in, e.g., IAB, T2TRG, in >> fundamental way, with suggested blueprint roadmap ~ IETF-107, where >> design team presents more detailed picture in summer 2020. >> >> >> >> On 9/4/2019 12:56 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far. In the interest of moving from >>> an informal post-BoF discussion to a more structured path forward, this >>> message starts a two-week last call for comments and consensus on a LAKE >>> charter. I've tried to incorporate the feedback from Martin and Göran >>> (though my editorial hand couldn't resist a few tweaks; all errors are >>> mine), and my apologies to anyone whose comments I missed. Depending on >>> how discussion goes, additional revisions may be posted during the comment >>> period to help achieve better clarity. If we get good agreement here, then >>> the charter can go to the IESG and IAB for the formal approval process >>> (including IETF LC). Please reply even you have no specific comments; the >>> IESG and IAB need to be able to gauge the level of community support for >>> and interest in the proposed work. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ben >>> >>> ==[ CHARTER ]== >>> Problem >>> >>> Constrained environments using OSCORE in network environments such as >>> NB-IoT, 6TiSCH, and LoRaWAN need a ‘lightweight’ authenticated key >>> exchange (LAKE) that enables forward security. 'Lightweight' refers to: >>> >>> * resource consumption, measured by number of round-trips to complete, >>> bytes on the wire, wall-clock time to complete, or power consumption >>> * the amount of new code required on end systems which already have an >>> OSCORE stack >>> >>> Goals >>> >>> This working group is intended to be a narrowly focused activity >>> intended to produce at most one LAKE for OSCORE usage and close. >>> >>> The working group will collaborate and coordinate with other IETF WGs >>> such as ACE, CORE, 6TISCH, and LPWAN to understand and validate the >>> requirements and solution. draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate >>> starting point for the LAKE produced by the WG. Any work available from >>> the TLS WG that satisfies the determined requirements will also be >>> evaluated for suitability. >>> >>> Program of Work >>> >>> The deliverables of this WG are: >>> >>> 1. Design requirements of the lightweight authenticated key exchange >>> protocol for OSCORE (this draft will not be published as an RFC but will be >>> used to drive WG consensus on the deliverable (2) >>> >>> 2. Specify a lightweight authenticated key exchange protocol suitable for >>> use in constrained environments using OSCORE >>> ==[ CHARTER ]== >>> >> -- >> email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik >> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 >> -- email:rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 --------------9DE22EF2EAFAE06B7FE550F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear colleagues:

My original assessment, as articulated during the Lake WG charter discussion (see [1]) still stands). I suggest rejecting this draft.

It is unclear whether one solves the right problem (apart from whether one solves the stated problem right). However, I have already articulated this during the rechartering discussion.

In IEEE PAR discussions, there is a requirement to describe a "why should one care" justification for an effort, where - if one would do this with IETF Edhoc - the justification seems to be "we can use slightly smaller enodings" than with, e.g., DTLS or with TLS, while reusing virtually all of the same crypto protocol flows, construct details, etc. Question is whether this is enough.

Some pain points of the draft (imho):

-- lack of flexibility and consideration of the entire lifecycle. Lots of rosy counting techniques for message flows do not hold up if one does not use "bare minimum" settings (e.g., by having certs instead of raw public keys that are assumed pre-installed); wants to have better DoS attack resiliency (where having only three flows does not help at all, etc). These also completely brush away the message flows required for provisioning (it may very well be that provisioning of each device takes more message flows than the, essentially, authenticated key agreement scheme, where co-design would have enabled one to design a set of protcols where one optimizes for total cost, rather than piecemeal minima. {As a side note, did one consider what, e.g., using "NOOB" [2] with EDHOC entails in terms of message flows, latencies, etc.?

-- lack of support for reusing implementations, where hardware/software co-design may not have support for encodings/decodings (and where this now has to be included in the trusted platform boundary). It is unclear whether engineering and certification headaches have been carefully assessed. It is also unclear whether the complementary part of the system lifecycle now is also forced to use all the same encoding/decoding, etc. (an ossification risk by itself).

-- unclear trade-off communication cost vs. computational cost: here, I will simply refer to the very expensive method that uses a static-DH key (it leads to size savings, but significantly increases computational cost and, there, also DoS risk).

Some other questions:

-- why does one need both signature-based and static-DH-based methods. If the objective is to be lean, then having many Chinese menu options (term credited to Peter Gutman) does not help.

-- some of the ciphersuite recommendations are somewhat odd. Having co-authors of this draft advocate EdDSA, while claiming this to be insecure (given easy fault attacks, esp, in IoT-setting?), in draft-mattsson-cfrg-det-sigs-with-noise-02 seems to be inconsistent. Why not simply use ECDSA (if one wishes ECDSA25519) and suggest a non-clamped version of ECDH (like all the co-factor ECDH schemes apart from RFC7748 do.? Why not supporting NIST curves, why enforcing both SHA512 and SHA256 at the same time, why pure-EdDSA (which requires two data passes), etc.?

Overall, I think pursuing this draft seems to leave too many questions to be answered to allow a positive verdict.

I know this draft has been pursued for quite a long time, but there are too many fundamental questions that are unanswered and it is unclear what design motivations really have been (except for low message size counts in an optimistic table). I suggest therefore there is no reason to adopt this.

My comments as during the chartering exercise also still stand.


{See also below for copy of that e-mail RS to Benjamin Kaduk/Lake WG email list;  Thu Oct 3, 2019, 11.14am EDT, Subject Re: [Lake] Lake charter call for comment] }
[2] draft-aura-eap-noob-08

Hi Ben:

Thanks for your response. Some brief feedback below.
I appreciate the analysis of how EDHOC (or cTLS) would fit into various radio schemes and protocol usages; that's perhaps more in-depth than we usually need to go at charter time but is definitely in scope for the kind of WG work I'm thinking of.  

RS>> My motivation for tackling the more general scenario (part #c of my comments on the draft charter) was based on closer scrutiny of how the outcome of the draft effort would fit-in with the target network environments mentioned in the draft charter (NB-IoT, 6TiSCH, and LoRaWAN). In other words: do we solve the right problem, vs. do we solve a stated problem right? From this scrutiny, it seems clear that the answer may be negative. As such, I do think this should be part of a sanity check for the charter. 

It is somewhat disappointing that, in the case of one of the two main triggers (6tisch), an answer to my question of more than half a year ago (March 5, 2019, 9.05am EST, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/_mjOGfpgvKFu1HBagIZcrLLG_YU) is still missing and that evidence of careful thought in this area is, more than half a year later, still scant. This makes me wonder how one could defend keeping this application domain into the draft charter (presuming evidence-based decision processes).
<<RS

I especially appreciate the illustration of the inherent multi-party nature of the processes involved, and the sentiment that a consolidated approach to the problem could do better than the piecemeal approach.  That said, I don't know that we have a clear enough understanding of the problem space and how to approach it that I could try to charter a WG to do the work; I think your suggestion of trying to have the IAB or T2TRG steer that discussion is reasonable, and I can try to see if the IAB is interested.  I am curious, though, how many people on this list would be willing to put some time into such a discussion.

RS>> I do think that people interested in real-life deployments have no choice but to consider the entire device and network lifecycle and have to consider the multi-party nature of protocol interactions to get a device up and running, change device ownership, etc. These topics seem to intersect quite well with topics areas in the t2trg charter, and seem to align with long-term issues with the IAB (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2850#section-2.1); hence, me mentioning those as potential suitable platforms (whether one has to steer, I am not sure; providing a platform might be enough). It is hard to assess whether people on *this* [lake] list would be interested in this broader picture; however, I am not that concerned whether people who wish to see real-life deployment on massive scale happen will.
<<RS

Best regards, Rene

On 9/25/2019 6:48 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
Hi Rene,

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.  To cover the several fronts:

It seems that you can accept the general tenor of the draft charter, but
want to revert the change made in response to (e.g.)
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lake/OupmIV74eHqBcb-X0lsIB4q41pM .
While I agree that we should have an open view, I also know that the
trigger for having a LAKE BoF at all was a continued push to get some
disposition for EDHOC, and I think that many (if not most) people, myself
included, expect that EDHOC is the leading contender for adoption by a LAKE
WG.  The proposed language about "starting point" is in pretty common usage
and is (I think) generally accepted in the IETF and IESG as indicating a
presumption that a draft is the likely candidate but leaving open the
possibility to adapt as circumstances change.  I think that going back to a
"will consider [a list of things]" formulation does not really reflect the
expectations of most people, and prefer to use a formulation that gives as
accurate a picture as possible, while still leaving openness for change.

You also ponder having a core key exchange framework without explicit
framing (so as to be adaptable to hardware, etc.); I think we've seen
roughly analogous situations with some algorithms that came out of the
CFRG: once in the IETF, we end up having to specify the details, and don't
always have great knowledge of the tradeoffs involved.  There's been a
trend of asking the CFRG to be more concrete in their output and have fewer
options to choose from, which in my experience has worked more effectively
for the IETF.  So, while having a somewhat malleable abstract model can
still be useful (and in many cases, a concrete protocol can be stripped
down to one), I lean towards having a concrete protocol with framing, that
is directly usable by IoT protocols with a minimum need for customization.

You seem to be pushing back against making an assumption that [a compact
framing of] TLS is/should be the "general solution", and that's a fair
point.  Do you also object to doing work on cTLS, or just to assuming that
it can meet the "general problem" discussed at the LAKE BoF?

I appreciate the analysis of how EDHOC (or cTLS) would fit into various
radio schemes and protocol usages; that's perhaps more in-depth than we
usually need to go at charter time but is definitely in scope for the kind
of WG work I'm thinking of.  I especially appreciate the illustration of
the inherent multi-party nature of the processes involved, and the
sentiment that a consolidated approach to the problem could do better than
the piecemeal approach.  That said, I don't know that we have a clear
enough understanding of the problem space and how to approach it that I
could try to charter a WG to do the work; I think your suggestion of trying
to have the IAB or T2TRG steer that discussion is reasonable, and I can try
to see if the IAB is interested.  I am curious, though, how many people on
this list would be willing to put some time into such a discussion.

Thanks,

Ben

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:06:13AM -0400, Rene Struik wrote:
Hi Ben:

Please find below my feedback on the draft charter for LAKE WG, as follows:
a) Feedback on the draft charter you put forward below.
b) Gap between "LAKE next steps" on mailing list and actual LAKE BOF 
discussion during IETF-105 in Montreal.
c) Motivation for tackling a more general scenario.
{For some earlier discussion on items b) and c) above, see my previous 
emails on this on the LAKE mailing list (condensed below for conciseness)}

Note RS: I am not against chartering this effort, as long as the more 
general scenario is also chartered (where the more general scenario 
would provide a long-term system solution). If there is only one narrow 
effort coming out of the LAKE BOF, I think we are heading  in the wrong 
direction.

Ad a): Comments on draft charter you put forward (email Benjamin Kaduk, 
Sep 4, 2019, 12.56am EDT):

In my opinion, the description of the goals should more clearly 
articulate that one keeps an open view with respect to potential 
solutions: currently, this primarily singles out 
draft-selander-ace-cose-edhe ("EDHOC") and any input from the TLS WG as 
targets of evaluation. What about replacing the last sentence of this 
paragraph by the more neutral and open phrase "The WG will also
evaluate prior work from the TLS WG and derivatives thereof, and 
draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe", as used during the LAKE BOF (see 
slides-105-lake-proposed-charter-01).

Having a concise authenticated key agreement scheme (AKC) seems to have 
merit, independent of very specific encoding and compression 
conventions. This makes me wonder whether the core AKC functionality and 
the representation hereof could be described separately, where the 
latter is simply an encoding that could be "stripped". If so, this seems 
to make it easier to implement securely on existing chipsets with crypto 
functionality on board. (Now that we are at this, does OSCORE/COSE have 
sufficient syntax to describe certificate chains?)

Ad b): LAKE next steps on mailing list vs. actual LAKE BOF discussion 
during IETF-105 in Montreal (email RS of Aug 26, 2019, 11.21pm EDT):

 From the discussion at the LAKE BoF, it seemed there was strong support 
for also tackling the broader scenario (triggered by David Thaler's 
suggested dichotomy at the microphone). (Note: according to the draft 
LAKE BOF minutes [minutes-105-lake-00], there was strong agreement that 
both OSCORE key exchange (the "narrow" problem) and the broader 
constrained scenario were problems that needed solving, with strong 
willingness work on this (15-17 hands for OSCORE, 10-11 for general 
case, few overlapping). )

Nevertheless, I have some trouble seeing suggested next steps on 
tackling this broader problem. After I asked on elaboration on how one 
would see this broader topic ("general purpose lightweight AKE") find a 
home in terms of next steps (in my mind, this is not simply "TLS with 
compressed representation"), it was suggested - roughly speaking - that 
TLS was the more general approach.


Ad c): Motivation for tackling a more general scenario:

Technically, it seems that ECDHOC and TLS share a similar crypto design 
philosophy, protocol flow framework, and instantiation, where - simply 
put - EDHOC just uses a more concise encoding of an ECDH+Sign (Sigma) 
protocol and cuts some other unneeded wood.

Arguably, the general IoT case cannot presume a Client/Server model, nor 
semi-infinite resources on one of the entities. Moreover, the 
communication path is relatively more costly (both in terms of time, 
routing, network enrollment, and DoS attack surface), and devices may be 
cheap, but should operate securely in a hostile environment, over their 
entire lifecycle, without much user intervention. This calls for a much 
more ambitious approach than an encoding exercise. What is needed is a 
system approach, taking into account the entire device's lifecycle, with 
considerations of threats.

To illustrate that a simple (smartly encoded) AKC is not enough, I will 
consider the use of EDHOC in LoRaWAN, 6TiSCH, and IoT bootstrapping 
considered (for quoted references, see Section 8.7 of 
draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe-14 [Note: some analysis may apply to other 
AKCs than ECDHOC as well]).

i) 6TiSCH use case (draft-ietf-6tisch-dtsecurity-zerotouch-join-04):
It is unclear from the -04 draft how EDHOC would work with 6TiSCH. 
According to the author, the previous 03-draft was "shit", "need[ed] to 
rewrite from scratch" (April 2, 2019); the 04-version had a slot, 
without slides, at IETF-105, but minutes suggest future of draft was 
questioned. My understanding from discussions in the hallway of IETF-105 
was that intention was to combine the first two flows of EDHOC and then 
simply combine this with the Join-Request and Join-Response command in 
the 6tisch-minimal draft (where, to my understanding, the idea seemed to 
be to "simply" plug-in the computed shared key as shared key in the join 
request/response flows. Just a cautionary remark here: there is much 
more to security and implementability of cryptographic protocols then 
mechanically making protocol flows work by mix-and-matching partial 
flows... the zerotouch draft also mentions lots of other protocol flows 
over many hops (BRSKI, etc.); 6TiSCH also has a parameter exchange 
between JRC (=central manager) and "pledge" (joining node) following 
network enrollment. Conclusion: optimizing the AKC by itself does have 
little impact on system-level device enrollment overhead; a more general 
method might, though.

ii) LoRaWAN ([LoRa1]; [LoRa2] ref not studied since dead link):
Fig. 3 suggests use of EDHOC to derive key that would subsequently used 
with join request/response (similar to 6TiSCH speculation above). Fig. 5 
of [LoRa1] paper suggest LoRa has 41-47 bytes header and 71-176 bytes 
for EDHOC.

iii) IoT bootstrapping [Perez18]:
Bootstrap is followed by ECDHOC (see Section 5.1 (Fig. 3); Section 5.2 
(EDHOC); Table 1 (Section 7.1 - testbed); bootstrap (7 
flows)/credentials (2 flows)/EDHOC (3 flows); Fig. 9: total message 
sizes). From the description, tables, and message size comparison, it is 
- again - clear that having an optimized AKC in a sea of unoptimized 
message exchanges is not going to make much of a difference.

Overall conclusion: in all cases, EDHOC overhead seems to be relatively 
small portion of total message size. Moreover, in IoT bootstrapping case 
(iii) and 6TiSCH (i), provisioning, etc. also takes quite large 
overhead. In almost all cases, actual protocols are not 2-party 
protocols, but 3- or more-party protocols (e.g., [with 6TiSCH], Joining 
Node - Neighboring Router part of network - Security Manager (many hops 
away)). This suggests, that one may be well off to design protocols that 
takes more than 2 parties into account, rather than simply having a 
2-party AKC.

The IETF has many, many drafts focusing on addressing partial design 
spaces (e.g., Anima, NOOB, pwd-based scheme, certiicate enrollment, 
etc.). However, pointwise local minimization does not necessarily lad to 
global minima: designs that take system lifecycle design into account 
may do so, though. This also may allow study of DoS attack issues, that 
usually are tackled by all-powerful devices that IoT simply does not have.

Suggestion: tackle the more general problem, in, e.g., IAB, T2TRG, in 
fundamental way, with suggested blueprint roadmap ~ IETF-107, where 
design team presents more detailed picture in summer 2020.



On 9/4/2019 12:56 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far.  In the interest of moving from
an informal post-BoF discussion to a more structured path forward, this
message starts a two-week last call for comments and consensus on a LAKE
charter.  I've tried to incorporate the feedback from Martin and Göran
(though my editorial hand couldn't resist a few tweaks; all errors are
mine), and my apologies to anyone whose comments I missed.  Depending on
how discussion goes, additional revisions may be posted during the comment
period to help achieve better clarity.  If we get good agreement here, then
the charter can go to the IESG and IAB for the formal approval process
(including IETF LC).  Please reply even you have no specific comments; the
IESG and IAB need to be able to gauge the level of community support for
and interest in the proposed work.

Thanks,

Ben

==[ CHARTER ]==
Problem

Constrained environments using OSCORE in network environments such as
NB-IoT, 6TiSCH, and LoRaWAN need a ‘lightweight’ authenticated key
exchange (LAKE) that enables forward security.  'Lightweight' refers to:

   * resource consumption, measured by number of round-trips to complete,
     bytes on the wire, wall-clock time to complete, or power consumption
   * the amount of new code required on end systems which already have an
     OSCORE stack

Goals

This working group is intended to be a narrowly focused activity
intended to produce at most one LAKE for OSCORE usage and close.

The working group will collaborate and coordinate with other IETF WGs
such as ACE, CORE, 6TISCH, and LPWAN to understand and validate the
requirements and solution.  draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe is a candidate
starting point for the LAKE produced by the WG.  Any work available from
the TLS WG that satisfies the determined requirements will also be
evaluated for suitability.

Program of Work

The deliverables of this WG are:

1. Design requirements of the lightweight authenticated key exchange
protocol for OSCORE (this draft will not be published as an RFC but will be
used to drive WG consensus on the deliverable (2)

2. Specify a lightweight authenticated key exchange protocol suitable for
use in constrained environments using OSCORE
==[ CHARTER ]==

-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
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Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m 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CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <3fc7c72b-bb04-8929-a41d-c47ac6b90124@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 04:34:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WKXYZZaMsU9507Ar9E2EFJHuVirM91T6o" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 03:34:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WKXYZZaMsU9507Ar9E2EFJHuVirM91T6o Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qJbwBZjeeXc3DzUMCNajm07RI8LijYIBc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Owen Friel (ofriel)" , Stefan Hristozov , "lake@ietf.org" Message-ID: <3fc7c72b-bb04-8929-a41d-c47ac6b90124@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 References: <35002ccb-092b-3942-7fa8-f84872cf165b@aisec.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: --qJbwBZjeeXc3DzUMCNajm07RI8LijYIBc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9C6D67E5D83C7B6B1AFBCC30" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9C6D67E5D83C7B6B1AFBCC30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Owen, On 23/06/2020 03:59, Owen Friel (ofriel) wrote: > Can we reach definitive consensus in this WG on whether cTLS meets > the requirements laid out in draft-ietf-lake-reqs?=20 I don't think that'd be a useful thing to attempt, as it is entirely obvious. (Please do correct me if I'm wrong.) The eventual outcome of such a protracted and boring debate would be that both edhoc and cTLS can meet the requirements. For me, that means it'd be pointless. The TLS WG has adopted cTLS, so there would be zero utility in yet another WG opining upon the details of that. (If the TLS WG decide to treat the lake-WG-reqs as a useful input, that'd be a fine but independent thing.) > This does not seem > to have been explicitly agreed by all parties yet. Reaching this > consensus on whether cTLS meets the requirements should be > independent of whether EDHOC vs. cTLS is actually chosen. I find it hard to even parse that tbh. It is entirely clear that "all parties" will not agree here. cTLS is being developed elsewhere. Opinions as to cTLS are therefore no longer relevant (for lake) except to the point where someone says "cTLS can do but edhoc cannot" and I have yet to see any such argument that has not been immediately countered by either "yes, it can" or else "sure, here's how." 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHQMPXxSUfow for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf29.google.com (mail-qv1-xf29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14EE63A08D4 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf29.google.com with SMTP id g7so9037765qvx.11 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:45:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=W3ZVlogIm9U/1wpVNz48JpVutr8cXFwjcSyQYX213cI=; b=EkdwoYJ7Vc3czK6RqatwoarvLh+NP3LbL7sg5pyMoJqqs0q15K2CYF9gjhGaCrEWhT 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w3mr24876353qvj.63.1592883922793; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n63sm14918656qkn.104.2020.06.22.20.45.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2020 23:45:21 -0400 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> To: lake@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Message-Id: <45709E7D-F538-4107-9078-DDC8DA670F58@sn3rd.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 03:45:26 -0000 I totally get Melinda=E2=80=99s point that in the past we have let the = market decide. Here there is already an AKE that is very widely deployed = does what is needed. The AKE just needs to be slimmed, everything needs = to be slimmed in the constrained space apparently ;}, so I really think = we ought to just do the slimming because of the KISS principle. So, I = tend think LAKE could use cTLS and call it day. spt > On Jun 8, 2020, at 09:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we = are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working = group is chartered to work on. Given: >=20 > - the LAKE working group charter, > - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for = draft-selander-lake-edhoc, > - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be = further developed, > - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the = LAKE working group,=20 >=20 > we are now launching a call for adoption for = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >=20 > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and = indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working = group document. >=20 > The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >=20 > Your LAKE chairs. > --=20 > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake From nobody Mon Jun 22 21:00:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1933A1727 for ; 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Tue, 23 Jun 2020 00:00:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-543-gda70334-fm-20200618.004-gda703345 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9a78436c-feb7-45a8-a9a5-31c169c649d5@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 14:00:16 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: lake@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_adoption_for_draft-selander-lake-edhoc?= =?utf-8?q?_-_respond_by_June_22?= X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 04:00:40 -0000 On Mon, Jun 8, 2020, at 23:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 wrote: > we are now launching a call for adoption for=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. I was reluctant to respond to this thread, because it generally isn't wo= rth stopping other people from doing something they want to do. And I'm= aware that the contract implied by the formation of this working group = - at least in the minds of many - was the development of a new AKE. The time that others spend isn't the only factor we should use to decide= . As others have noted, adoption of an entirely new AKE means more than= just the time that those other people spend. I have no skin in the mai= ntenance of IoT products, but the concerns raised about fracturing and m= aintenance overheads there are serious. My concern is for the split thi= s creates between endpoints that choose option A and endpoints that choo= se option B. When CoAP was proposed, I didn't have the same presence of mind as other= s [1] to recognize the harm inherent in defining something like HTTP tha= t wasn't HTTP. It's easy to point to adoption of CoAP and use that to c= laim success, but that misses the true costs. The true failure is the c= reation of a set of endpoints that don't talk to other endpoints. The I= ETF made the choice to actively help create a division in the market. M= aybe these endpoints might never have been able to communicate (MQTT is,= after all, largely outside our control), but the choice by the IETF to = XKCD 927 didn't really help. For us, this failure manifests in a great deal of expenditure on paralle= l infrastructure and standards development. For the market, who we leav= e to choose, the cost is in the creation of non-interoperable islands. = The market also pays through the dilution of resources that we dedicate = to the improvement of the commons, of which protocols are some of the mo= st valuable assets. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-montenegro-httpbis-h2ot-00 From nobody Tue Jun 23 01:11:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580B53A0B94 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 01:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4eckXbhK79v for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 01:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR08MB4215 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 10:41:07 -0000 --_000_DB7PR08MB3482E55ADA1F12993D7535C4E2940DB7PR08MB3482eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Prompted by some of the recent e-mails, I should also add that another prim= ary reason for choosing TLS as the basis for network admission was reuse, i= .e. a single TLS code base could be used for both network admission and app= lication layer security. In addition to being more efficient, this will lik= ely become more important with the advent of trusted environments (e.g. Arm= TrustZone-M [1]), where the less code that has to reside in the TEE, the b= etter. Robert [1] https://www.arm.com/why-arm/technologies/trustzone-for-cortex-m From: Lake On Behalf Of Robert Cragie Sent: 22 June 2020 14:59 To: lake@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respo= nd by June 22 I oppose the adoption of EDHOC as I believe EDHOC and OSCORE are reinventin= g the wheel. There seems to be this view that TLS and DTLS are unsuitable for IoT and te= chnologies such as LPWAN and low power wireless PANs (e.g. 802.15.4). Howev= er, I would like to point out that we were successfully deploying: 1. Network admission using PANA, EAP and EC certificate-based TLS with Zigb= ee IP [1] 2. Application layer security using EC certificate-based TLS with SEP 2.0 [= 2] This was ten years ago on microcontrollers with considerably less capabilit= y than those available now. Zigbee IP never gained much traction, however t= he successor to Zigbee IP, Thread, also deploys: 1. Network admission using EC JPAKE and EC certificate-based DTLS and CoAP-= based relay mechanism [3] The reason for using TLS in both cases as a basis was entirely due to not w= anting to reinvent the wheel and come up with a new approach, as we acknowl= edged the hard work and effort put in by the TLS working group in not only = coming up with the protocols and ciphersuites but also the significant amou= nt of scrutiny and testing that implementations had gone through, hardening= both the implementations and the standards themselves. There is no doubt that the key exchange transactions we used could be made = more efficient but, in my view, the correct approach is to build upon the s= olid foundation of TLS through efforts such as cTLS and not to try and star= t again. Robert [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials/slides-83-lwig-5 [2] https://www.ei.se/Documents/Projekt/Funktionskrav%20elm%C3%A4tare/2017/= SEP%202pkt0.pdf [3] https://www.threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/support/CommissioningWh= itePaper_658_2.pdf From: Lake > On Behalf = Of Mali=B9a Vucinic Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:55 PM To: lake@ietf.org Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond b= y June 22 Hi all, Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are pr= oceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is cha= rtered to work on. Given: - the LAKE working group charter, - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selan= der-lake-edhoc, - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be furt= her developed, - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE wo= rking group, we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate = if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document. The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. Your LAKE chairs. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB7PR08MB3482E55ADA1F12993D7535C4E2940DB7PR08MB3482eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Prompted by some of the recent e-mails, I should als= o add that another primary reason for choosing TLS as the basis for network= admission was reuse, i.e. a single TLS code base could be used for both ne= twork admission and application layer security. In addition to being more efficient, this will likely become mor= e important with the advent of trusted environments (e.g. Arm TrustZone-M [= 1]), where the less code that has to reside in the TEE, the better.

 

Robert

 

[1] https://www.arm.com/why-arm/technologies/trustzone-for-cortex-m

 

 

From: Lake <lake-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Cragie
Sent: 22 June 2020 14:59
To: lake@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc = - respond by June 22

 

I oppose the adoption of EDHOC as I believe EDHOC an= d OSCORE are reinventing the wheel.

 

There seems to be this view that TLS and DTLS are un= suitable for IoT and technologies such as LPWAN and low power wireless PANs= (e.g. 802.15.4). However, I would like to point out that we were successfu= lly deploying:

 

1. Network admission using PANA, EAP and EC certific= ate-based TLS with Zigbee IP [1]

2. Application layer security using EC certificate-b= ased TLS with SEP 2.0 [2]

 

This was ten years ago on microcontrollers with cons= iderably less capability than those available now. Zigbee IP never gained m= uch traction, however the successor to Zigbee IP, Thread, also deploys:

 

1. Network admission using EC JPAKE and EC certifica= te-based DTLS and CoAP-based relay mechanism [3]

 

The reason for using TLS in both cases as a basis wa= s entirely due to not wanting to reinvent the wheel and come up with a new = approach, as we acknowledged the hard work and effort put in by the TLS wor= king group in not only coming up with the protocols and ciphersuites but also the significant amount of scrutiny= and testing that implementations had gone through, hardening both the impl= ementations and the standards themselves.

 

There is no doubt that the key exchange transactions= we used could be made more efficient but, in my view, the correct approach= is to build upon the solid foundation of TLS through efforts such as cTLS = and not to try and start again.

 

Robert

 

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials/slides-83-lwig-5=

[2] https://www.ei.se/Documents/Projekt/Funktionskrav%20elm%C3%A4tare/2017/SEP%= 202pkt0.pdf

[3] https://www.threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/support/CommissioningWhiteP= aper_658_2.pdf

 

From: Lake <lake-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mali=B9a Vucinic<= /p>

Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 3:55 PM

To: lake@ietf.org

Subject: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander= -lake-edhoc - respond by June 22

 

Hi all,

 

Since we now have a rough consensus on the requireme= nts document, we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE o= ur working group is chartered to work on. Given:

 

- the LAKE working group charter,

- a wide community support over an extensive period = of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,

- adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working grou= p where it will be further developed,

- that no other drafts have been submitted for consi= deration of the LAKE working group,

 

we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.

 

Please reply to this thread whether you support the = adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a w= orking group document.

 

The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.<= /o:p>

 

Your LAKE chairs.

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_DB7PR08MB3482E55ADA1F12993D7535C4E2940DB7PR08MB3482eurp_-- From nobody Tue Jun 23 11:23:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25333A08F3 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 11:23:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CIwCvtkiTbyD for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 11:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEE483A08EE for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 11:23:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,272,1589234400"; d="scan'208";a="352517674" Received: from 89-156-101-160.rev.numericable.fr (HELO [192.168.0.69]) ([89.156.101.160]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jun 2020 20:23:06 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Karthik Bhargavan In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 20:23:04 +0200 Cc: "lake@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3867DDE5-2B74-4272-8080-D62A57AA0FEA@inria.fr> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <45709E7D-F538-4107-9078-DDC8DA670F58@sn3rd.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 18:23:11 -0000 Hello all. I don=E2=80=99t have a strong personal opinion on this adoption call. However, whichever protocol the working group chooses to work on, it is = important that we leave sufficient time for multiple comprehensive = security analyses, including both symbolic analyses and cryptographic proofs that cover all = corners of the protocol. I cannot speak for all my academic colleagues, but in general, we prefer = to work on a single stable protocol that we know will have a high = impact. Historically, this has meant TLS, which is why there are dozens of = papers covering every aspect of TLS under multiple security models. These analyses don=E2=80=99t just covert the cryptographic code, they = also account for non-core features like negotiation and resumption. My sense is that it will probably be easy to adapt many of these results = to apply to cTLS, but this still needs to be done. But we also need to make sure we get similar levels of assurance for = EDHOC, and we are only at the early stages of this analysis. In my team, we are planning to build a comprehensive analysis of both = cTLS and LAKE using F* and this will take some time. I see there are other efforts on analysing EDHOC using Tamarin, which is = great, and I don=E2=80=99t know if some team is planning a cryptographic = proof of the protocol. Anyway, my two cents: let=E2=80=99s not forget the time needed for = formal analysis before deploying a protocol on a billion devices. Best, -Karthik > On 23 Jun 2020, at 10:11, G=C3=B6ran Selander = wrote: >=20 > Some reflections on the responses to the adoption call. >=20 > LAKE is about designing an AKE for OSCORE.=20 >=20 > We have heard from of the order of 10 people from different = organisations who have worked with OSCORE implementations and some also = with EDHOC, and they all support the adoption of EDHOC.=20 >=20 > We have heard a number of statements from people or organisations who = are documented against OSCORE, because it is competing with solutions = they are promoting or for some other reason. In deciding about what = draft to base the AKE for OSCORE, how should we weigh the advice from = people/organisations who do not want OSCORE to be deployed at all? For = all I know, they could promote an AKE which is not at all suitable for = the purpose. >=20 > We have not heard a single witness from someone who actually have = tested OSCORE with cTLS, let alone testing with good performance, = despite cTLS has been around for 15 months. There is a good reason why: = no one wants to use that combination. >=20 > While in theory it sounds like a good idea to re-use a slimmed TLS = handshake, this has been a theory for such a long time that we can now = add the lack of proof points to the list of reasons why this is not a = good idea. The burden of proof to demonstrate that cTLS is suitable for = OSCORE rests with cTLS. Yes, we have recently concluded the = requirements phase, but the requirements on how to make an AKE for = OSCORE has been unchanged for as long as cTLS has existed.=20 >=20 > It is also claimed by several that cTLS fulfils the LAKE performance = requirements. Yet others make assessments about adoption based on that = assumption. I may have missed it, but I have have not seen any text = making plausible, for example, that running a complete handshake = messages over CoAP for RPK by reference in (1,1,1) fragments. Note that = this is not just a detail, it is one major reason for "L" in LAKE. It = is my understanding that re-engineering TLS to the point where it meets = the LAKE requirements is no longer TLS, neither in terms of analysis nor = implementation.=20 >=20 > As a summary, I think many of the arguments against adoption are based = on assumptions that may be incorrect, or at least, despite the long time = this has been debated, for some reason have not been shown.=20 >=20 > G=C3=B6ran >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-06-23, 05:45, "Lake on behalf of Sean Turner" = wrote: >=20 > I totally get Melinda=E2=80=99s point that in the past we have let = the market decide. Here there is already an AKE that is very widely = deployed does what is needed. The AKE just needs to be slimmed, = everything needs to be slimmed in the constrained space apparently ;}, = so I really think we ought to just do the slimming because of the KISS = principle. So, I tend think LAKE could use cTLS and call it day. >=20 > spt >=20 >> On Jun 8, 2020, at 09:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we = are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working = group is chartered to work on. Given: >>=20 >> - the LAKE working group charter, >> - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for = draft-selander-lake-edhoc, >> - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will = be further developed, >> - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the = LAKE working group,=20 >>=20 >> we are now launching a call for adoption for = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >>=20 >> Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and = indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working = group document. >>=20 >> The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >>=20 >> Your LAKE chairs. >> --=20 >> Lake mailing list >> Lake@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >=20 > --=20 > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >=20 > --=20 > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake From nobody Tue Jun 23 14:00:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2DF3A0A62 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:59:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqwwvLO4KgdD for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E66163A0A40 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id r22so18702624qke.13 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:59:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=Zi0arH/vgmmB24ZYPqboeSLsBOlRJhL9yw7eo1wOUac=; b=WOpER63lcVlf/rfvgIdsifcqgtjLPkeeJfJpXkzz4CiQGeon6pg2c3yuHxuVFDxzCv q2IoZfnwSIsg/TPLHqcdif7RpAcSQh6qP4xx/LPu5dSJoV4QFFjK0hY5CayK3/g8cve2 nWJappR2L5ahHqOWpV9J+SaZIoKabnUqcfmDz1CRWpjcP3+k0eWMvj7kMsRxw2wXLDtB GLt6nZPM59JCIGZAr8yPrQyxD+CoMgK3tVNNaIHuoMYmYJKV4CG69X5QaDk/dxUIrwm/ WlcuYowZYARYw0c/BCDJesrrYPBcBu10jhGME5OYvs9lJU40gH60epav2J9B/3mH8kSF xnjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=Zi0arH/vgmmB24ZYPqboeSLsBOlRJhL9yw7eo1wOUac=; b=scCS8hGFnYPlXymCJCyB/8KRXLTinfEDwxFyTKMQIfFXG9CtiVZwNCzC4AxHxv6wxv RKbyH20bcAuFzeTw4Y61Y3xD/7VmKbVirrdzN1oCNCqao+MFGKzJHTCu9GycWNFaZtaS 133I/Z0RoEqbp83DjK5pCYMGuIlQxYBLHookkfv0C8ypbQYE9uULi7RgIpbBbY8hleif h6Ru45OGexSCriFVQkxlKvGfYYykMpUnylaRHFZ11do9l4+G/t5AM8NpLt5MP7SSFtug eQVfxVSRyMxuJQDUi8bYqPsFHXLf/fIqUQ1INluhhI1TDUZewIKNHfcBGZ1V/kWpMztp T3cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dJEGzJkb4VIYyY30lGh4tYevni6IwLgeHLpiYz1R5I0CRXdex ZMTfkXHFmxrJ2H5/Uu5CGWaJZJCJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTngEKoQMOnt4hhi+FOl1GCeid1IvIdI/bYURvWs0WccwMbehNh+NFD+VmLuU2WUcP6Hi9vg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:6894:: with SMTP id d142mr22308882qkc.440.1592945996465; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fea8:8a0:1397:e5f4:e73b:8e31:101d? ([2607:fea8:8a0:1397:e5f4:e73b:8e31:101d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p22sm1759739qtc.7.2020.06.23.13.59.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Karthik Bhargavan , "lake@ietf.org" References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <45709E7D-F538-4107-9078-DDC8DA670F58@sn3rd.com> <3867DDE5-2B74-4272-8080-D62A57AA0FEA@inria.fr> From: Rene Struik Message-ID: <082e49cf-d83f-3e02-ae0d-6b3ac334c3d1@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 16:59:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3867DDE5-2B74-4272-8080-D62A57AA0FEA@inria.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 21:00:00 -0000 Hi Karthik: I don't think you intended it this way, but your note seemed to suggest that support for another twist of a protocol by academia is motivated by, at least partially, "because it is a nice academic paper generator"... Anyway, my two cents: let’s not forget the time needed for formal analysis before deploying a protocol on a billion devices. I would encourage everyone to look beyond one's own niche and consider wider scale ramifications and considerations as well. There is still lots of new stuff to work on or to dream up, rather than analyzing things people write up in internet drafts... {I hope you agree -- if not, contact me and we can discuss some topic areas to consider and that I would love to spend time on if having sufficient time for this} Best regards, Rene On 2020-06-23 2:23 p.m., Karthik Bhargavan wrote: > Hello all. > > I don’t have a strong personal opinion on this adoption call. > > However, whichever protocol the working group chooses to work on, it is important that we leave sufficient time for multiple comprehensive security analyses, > including both symbolic analyses and cryptographic proofs that cover all corners of the protocol. > > I cannot speak for all my academic colleagues, but in general, we prefer to work on a single stable protocol that we know will have a high impact. > Historically, this has meant TLS, which is why there are dozens of papers covering every aspect of TLS under multiple security models. > These analyses don’t just covert the cryptographic code, they also account for non-core features like negotiation and resumption. > My sense is that it will probably be easy to adapt many of these results to apply to cTLS, but this still needs to be done. > But we also need to make sure we get similar levels of assurance for EDHOC, and we are only at the early stages of this analysis. > > In my team, we are planning to build a comprehensive analysis of both cTLS and LAKE using F* and this will take some time. > I see there are other efforts on analysing EDHOC using Tamarin, which is great, and I don’t know if some team is planning a cryptographic proof of the protocol. > Anyway, my two cents: let’s not forget the time needed for formal analysis before deploying a protocol on a billion devices. > > Best, > -Karthik > > > > > >> On 23 Jun 2020, at 10:11, Göran Selander wrote: >> >> Some reflections on the responses to the adoption call. >> >> LAKE is about designing an AKE for OSCORE. >> >> We have heard from of the order of 10 people from different organisations who have worked with OSCORE implementations and some also with EDHOC, and they all support the adoption of EDHOC. >> >> We have heard a number of statements from people or organisations who are documented against OSCORE, because it is competing with solutions they are promoting or for some other reason. In deciding about what draft to base the AKE for OSCORE, how should we weigh the advice from people/organisations who do not want OSCORE to be deployed at all? For all I know, they could promote an AKE which is not at all suitable for the purpose. >> >> We have not heard a single witness from someone who actually have tested OSCORE with cTLS, let alone testing with good performance, despite cTLS has been around for 15 months. There is a good reason why: no one wants to use that combination. >> >> While in theory it sounds like a good idea to re-use a slimmed TLS handshake, this has been a theory for such a long time that we can now add the lack of proof points to the list of reasons why this is not a good idea. The burden of proof to demonstrate that cTLS is suitable for OSCORE rests with cTLS. Yes, we have recently concluded the requirements phase, but the requirements on how to make an AKE for OSCORE has been unchanged for as long as cTLS has existed. >> >> It is also claimed by several that cTLS fulfils the LAKE performance requirements. Yet others make assessments about adoption based on that assumption. I may have missed it, but I have have not seen any text making plausible, for example, that running a complete handshake messages over CoAP for RPK by reference in (1,1,1) fragments. Note that this is not just a detail, it is one major reason for "L" in LAKE. It is my understanding that re-engineering TLS to the point where it meets the LAKE requirements is no longer TLS, neither in terms of analysis nor implementation. >> >> As a summary, I think many of the arguments against adoption are based on assumptions that may be incorrect, or at least, despite the long time this has been debated, for some reason have not been shown. >> >> Göran >> >> >> On 2020-06-23, 05:45, "Lake on behalf of Sean Turner" wrote: >> >> I totally get Melinda’s point that in the past we have let the market decide. Here there is already an AKE that is very widely deployed does what is needed. The AKE just needs to be slimmed, everything needs to be slimmed in the constrained space apparently ;}, so I really think we ought to just do the slimming because of the KISS principle. So, I tend think LAKE could use cTLS and call it day. >> >> spt >> >>> On Jun 8, 2020, at 09:54, Mališa Vučinić wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given: >>> >>> - the LAKE working group charter, >>> - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc, >>> - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed, >>> - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE working group, >>> >>> we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >>> >>> Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document. >>> >>> The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >>> >>> Your LAKE chairs. >>> -- >>> Lake mailing list >>> Lake@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >> -- >> Lake mailing list >> Lake@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >> >> -- >> Lake mailing list >> Lake@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 From nobody Tue Jun 23 22:23:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F404B3A0807 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 22:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTjCPy1IuL32 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 22:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C8603A07FB for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 22:22:56 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,274,1589234400"; d="scan'208,217";a="352547617" Received: from 89-156-101-160.rev.numericable.fr (HELO [192.168.0.69]) ([89.156.101.160]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Jun 2020 07:22:53 +0200 From: Karthik Bhargavan Message-Id: <55D3EA37-6F03-4655-AF49-F57B474F1B97@inria.fr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4AB7B7D5-FF9E-4726-87D5-057AD3F88EFF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 07:22:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <082e49cf-d83f-3e02-ae0d-6b3ac334c3d1@gmail.com> Cc: "lake@ietf.org" To: Rene Struik References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <45709E7D-F538-4107-9078-DDC8DA670F58@sn3rd.com> <3867DDE5-2B74-4272-8080-D62A57AA0FEA@inria.fr> <082e49cf-d83f-3e02-ae0d-6b3ac334c3d1@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 05:23:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4AB7B7D5-FF9E-4726-87D5-057AD3F88EFF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Rene, > I don't think you intended it this way, but your note seemed to = suggest that support for another twist of a protocol by academia is = motivated by, at least partially, "because it is a nice academic paper = generator"... Quite the contrary. Perhaps my email was unclear, but we usually prefer = to have a few stable protocols that we can analyze with multiple subtly = different models over several years. Analyzing an IETF protocol standard takes a lot of time, and is largely = a thankless task. Most of my colleagues could write 3 papers in the time = it takes them to fully specify a single protocol standard. This is certainly not an efficient paper generator. We do it, like all = of you, because we think it is important for the Internet community. My main point is that if we want similar levels of assurance for EDHOC = that we obtained for TLS 1.3, we need to budget some time for this, and = cannot rush towards standardization. Of course, the WG may decide that LAKE does not need the same level of = rigor as TLS 1.3, which would be unfortunate. Best, Karthik >=20 > Anyway, my two cents: let=E2=80=99s not forget the time = needed for formal analysis before deploying a protocol on a billion = devices. >=20 > I would encourage everyone to look beyond one's own niche and consider = wider scale ramifications and considerations as well. >=20 > There is still lots of new stuff to work on or to dream up, rather = than analyzing things people write up in internet drafts... {I hope you = agree -- if not, contact me and we can discuss some topic areas to = consider and that I would love to spend time on if having sufficient = time for this} >=20 >=20 > Best regards, Rene >=20 > On 2020-06-23 2:23 p.m., Karthik Bhargavan wrote: >> Hello all. >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t have a strong personal opinion on this adoption call. >>=20 >> However, whichever protocol the working group chooses to work on, it = is important that we leave sufficient time for multiple comprehensive = security analyses, >> including both symbolic analyses and cryptographic proofs that cover = all corners of the protocol. >>=20 >> I cannot speak for all my academic colleagues, but in general, we = prefer to work on a single stable protocol that we know will have a high = impact. >> Historically, this has meant TLS, which is why there are dozens of = papers covering every aspect of TLS under multiple security models. >> These analyses don=E2=80=99t just covert the cryptographic code, they = also account for non-core features like negotiation and resumption. >> My sense is that it will probably be easy to adapt many of these = results to apply to cTLS, but this still needs to be done. >> But we also need to make sure we get similar levels of assurance for = EDHOC, and we are only at the early stages of this analysis. >>=20 >> In my team, we are planning to build a comprehensive analysis of both = cTLS and LAKE using F* and this will take some time. >> I see there are other efforts on analysing EDHOC using Tamarin, which = is great, and I don=E2=80=99t know if some team is planning a = cryptographic proof of the protocol. >> Anyway, my two cents: let=E2=80=99s not forget the time needed for = formal analysis before deploying a protocol on a billion devices. >>=20 >> Best, >> -Karthik >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 23 Jun 2020, at 10:11, G=C3=B6ran Selander = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Some reflections on the responses to the adoption call. >>>=20 >>> LAKE is about designing an AKE for OSCORE. >>>=20 >>> We have heard from of the order of 10 people from different = organisations who have worked with OSCORE implementations and some also = with EDHOC, and they all support the adoption of EDHOC. >>>=20 >>> We have heard a number of statements from people or organisations = who are documented against OSCORE, because it is competing with = solutions they are promoting or for some other reason. In deciding = about what draft to base the AKE for OSCORE, how should we weigh the = advice from people/organisations who do not want OSCORE to be deployed = at all? For all I know, they could promote an AKE which is not at all = suitable for the purpose. >>>=20 >>> We have not heard a single witness from someone who actually have = tested OSCORE with cTLS, let alone testing with good performance, = despite cTLS has been around for 15 months. There is a good reason why: = no one wants to use that combination. >>>=20 >>> While in theory it sounds like a good idea to re-use a slimmed TLS = handshake, this has been a theory for such a long time that we can now = add the lack of proof points to the list of reasons why this is not a = good idea. The burden of proof to demonstrate that cTLS is suitable for = OSCORE rests with cTLS. Yes, we have recently concluded the = requirements phase, but the requirements on how to make an AKE for = OSCORE has been unchanged for as long as cTLS has existed. >>>=20 >>> It is also claimed by several that cTLS fulfils the LAKE performance = requirements. Yet others make assessments about adoption based on that = assumption. I may have missed it, but I have have not seen any text = making plausible, for example, that running a complete handshake = messages over CoAP for RPK by reference in (1,1,1) fragments. Note that = this is not just a detail, it is one major reason for "L" in LAKE. It = is my understanding that re-engineering TLS to the point where it meets = the LAKE requirements is no longer TLS, neither in terms of analysis nor = implementation. >>>=20 >>> As a summary, I think many of the arguments against adoption are = based on assumptions that may be incorrect, or at least, despite the = long time this has been debated, for some reason have not been shown. >>>=20 >>> G=C3=B6ran >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-06-23, 05:45, "Lake on behalf of Sean Turner" = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I totally get Melinda=E2=80=99s point that in the past we have = let the market decide. Here there is already an AKE that is very widely = deployed does what is needed. The AKE just needs to be slimmed, = everything needs to be slimmed in the constrained space apparently ;}, = so I really think we ought to just do the slimming because of the KISS = principle. So, I tend think LAKE could use cTLS and call it day. >>>=20 >>> spt >>>=20 >>>> On Jun 8, 2020, at 09:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi all, >>>>=20 >>>> Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, = we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working = group is chartered to work on. Given: >>>>=20 >>>> - the LAKE working group charter, >>>> - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for = draft-selander-lake-edhoc, >>>> - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will = be further developed, >>>> - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the = LAKE working group, >>>>=20 >>>> we are now launching a call for adoption for = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01. >>>>=20 >>>> Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and = indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working = group document. >>>>=20 >>>> The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. >>>>=20 >>>> Your LAKE chairs. >>>> --=20 >>>> Lake mailing list >>>> Lake@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >>> -- >>> Lake mailing list >>> Lake@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Lake mailing list >>> Lake@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake >=20 >=20 > --=20 > email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: = rstruik > cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 --Apple-Mail=_4AB7B7D5-FF9E-4726-87D5-057AD3F88EFF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Rene,

I don't think you intended it this way, but your note seemed = to suggest that support for another twist of a protocol by academia is = motivated by, at least partially, "because it is a nice academic paper = generator"...

Quite the = contrary. Perhaps my email was unclear, but we usually prefer to have a = few stable protocols that we can analyze with multiple subtly different = models over several years.

Analyzing = an IETF protocol standard takes a lot of time, and is largely a = thankless task. Most of my colleagues could write 3 papers in the time = it takes them to fully specify a single protocol = standard.
This is certainly not an efficient paper generator. = We do it, like all of you, because we think it is important for the = Internet community.

My main point is = that if we want similar levels of assurance for EDHOC that we obtained = for TLS 1.3, we need to budget some time for this, and cannot rush = towards standardization.
Of course, the WG may decide that = LAKE does not need the same level of rigor as TLS 1.3, which would be = unfortunate.

Best,
Karthik



= Anyway, my = two cents: let=E2=80=99s not forget the time needed for formal analysis = before deploying a protocol on a billion devices.

I would encourage everyone to = look beyond one's own niche and consider wider scale ramifications and = considerations as well.

There is still lots of new stuff to work on or to dream up, = rather than analyzing things people write up in internet drafts... {I = hope you agree -- if not, contact me and we can discuss some topic areas = to consider and that I would love to spend time on if having sufficient = time for this}


Best regards, Rene

On 2020-06-23 2:23 p.m., Karthik Bhargavan wrote:
Hello = all.

I don=E2=80=99t have a strong personal = opinion on this adoption call.

However, = whichever protocol the working group chooses to work on, it is important = that we leave sufficient time for multiple comprehensive security = analyses,
including both symbolic analyses and = cryptographic proofs that cover all corners of the protocol.

I cannot speak for all my academic colleagues, = but in general, we prefer to work on a single stable protocol that we = know will have a high impact.
Historically, this has meant = TLS, which is why there are dozens of papers covering every aspect of = TLS under multiple security models.
These analyses don=E2=80= =99t just covert the cryptographic code, they also account for non-core = features like negotiation and resumption.
My sense is that = it will probably be easy to adapt many of these results to apply to = cTLS, but this still needs to be done.
But we also need to = make sure we get similar levels of assurance for EDHOC, and we are only = at the early stages of this analysis.

In my = team, we are planning to build a comprehensive analysis of both cTLS and = LAKE using F* and this will take some time.
I see there = are other efforts on analysing EDHOC using Tamarin, which is great, and = I don=E2=80=99t know if some team is planning a cryptographic proof of = the protocol.
Anyway, my two cents: let=E2=80=99s not = forget the time needed for formal analysis before deploying a protocol = on a billion devices.

Best,
-Karthik





On 23 Jun 2020, at 10:11, G=C3=B6ran Selander <goran.selander=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Some reflections on the responses to = the adoption call.

LAKE is about designing = an AKE for OSCORE.

We have heard from of = the order of 10 people from different organisations who have worked with = OSCORE implementations and some also with EDHOC, and they all support = the adoption of EDHOC.

We have heard a = number of statements from people or organisations who are documented = against OSCORE, because it is competing with solutions they are = promoting or for some other reason.  In deciding about what draft = to base the AKE for OSCORE, how should we weigh the advice from = people/organisations who do not want OSCORE to be deployed at all? =  For all I know, they could promote an AKE which is not at all = suitable for the purpose.

We have not heard = a single witness from someone who actually have tested OSCORE with cTLS, = let alone testing with good performance, despite cTLS has been around = for 15 months.  There is a good reason why: no one wants to use = that combination.

While in theory it sounds = like a good idea to re-use a slimmed TLS handshake, this has been a = theory for such a long time that we can now add the lack of proof points = to the list of reasons why this is not a good idea.  The burden of = proof to demonstrate that cTLS is suitable for OSCORE rests with cTLS. =  Yes, we have recently concluded the requirements phase, but the = requirements on how to make an AKE for OSCORE has been unchanged for as = long as cTLS has existed.

It is also = claimed by several that cTLS fulfils the LAKE performance requirements. = Yet others make assessments about adoption based on that assumption. =  I may have missed it, but I have have not seen any text making = plausible, for example, that running a complete handshake messages over = CoAP for RPK by reference in (1,1,1) fragments.  Note that this is = not just a detail, it is one major reason for "L" in LAKE.  It is = my understanding that re-engineering TLS to the point where it meets the = LAKE requirements is no longer TLS, neither in terms of analysis nor = implementation.

As a summary, I think many = of the arguments against adoption are based on assumptions that may be = incorrect, or at least, despite the long time this has been debated, for = some reason have not been shown.

G=C3=B6ran

=EF=BB=BFOn 2020-06-23, = 05:45, "Lake on behalf of Sean Turner" <lake-bounces@ietf.org= on behalf of sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:

   I totally get Melinda=E2=80=99s point that = in the past we have let the market decide. Here there is already an AKE = that is very widely deployed does what is needed. The AKE just needs to = be slimmed, everything needs to be slimmed in the constrained space = apparently ;}, so I really think we ought to just do the slimming = because of the KISS principle. So, I tend think LAKE could use cTLS and = call it day.

   spt

On Jun 8, = 2020, at 09:54, Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 <malisa.vucinic@inria.fr> wrote:

Hi all,

Since we now have a = rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the = selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work = on. Given:

- the LAKE working group = charter,
- a wide community support over an extensive = period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc,
- adoption = of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further = developed,
- that no other drafts have been submitted for = consideration of the LAKE working group,

we = are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01.
Please reply to this thread whether you = support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this = draft becomes a working group document.

The = call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020.

Your LAKE chairs.
-- 
Lake mailing = list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake
   --
   Lake mailing list
   Lake@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake

-- 
Lake mailing = list
Lake@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake


-- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 = (415) 287-3867

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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55D3EA37-6F03-4655-AF49-F57B474F1B97@inria.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lJhqQBVprnEsSPSY8dQioop3rtvmfcMIG" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 09:32:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --lJhqQBVprnEsSPSY8dQioop3rtvmfcMIG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UQ2tBgBnUMujzLIT0AtkJblzA2DtF9HVo"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Karthik Bhargavan , Rene Struik Cc: "lake@ietf.org" Message-ID: <63c9109f-7fa7-2c86-6bee-2201df0ee8dd@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <45709E7D-F538-4107-9078-DDC8DA670F58@sn3rd.com> <3867DDE5-2B74-4272-8080-D62A57AA0FEA@inria.fr> <082e49cf-d83f-3e02-ae0d-6b3ac334c3d1@gmail.com> <55D3EA37-6F03-4655-AF49-F57B474F1B97@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <55D3EA37-6F03-4655-AF49-F57B474F1B97@inria.fr> --UQ2tBgBnUMujzLIT0AtkJblzA2DtF9HVo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------14D8D26B59E3DA6C5FFCD9DC" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------14D8D26B59E3DA6C5FFCD9DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 24/06/2020 06:22, Karthik Bhargavan wrote: > Analyzing an IETF protocol standard takes a lot of time, and is > largely a thankless task. Well, fwiw, I'm really thankful to all the people (yourself included) who were involved in analysis of TLS1.3 and who are willing to put in the effort to analyse IETF protocols. I think that was a fine model to follow any time we can motivate people to do such analysis. > My main point is that if we want similar levels of assurance for > EDHOC that we obtained for TLS 1.3, we need to budget some time for > this I agree. If the WG adopts edhoc then we will want to allow for that work too. 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVn3QZsBsLMA for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B6023A11C8 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 05OMsWL2031512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 18:54:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 15:54:31 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: lake@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200624225431.GT58278@kduck.mit.edu> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 22:54:38 -0000 Hi all, In light of some of the directions that the recent discussion on this thread has gone, I want to take a step back and confirm my understanding of what it would mean for this adoption call to succeed. My own personal understanding of the "at most one LAKE" in the charter is that a decision to go from one candidate output of the WG to zero (and, presumably, close the WG) could be made at any time prior to the publication of such a "one LAKE. Specifically, among the myriad possibilities that seemed plausible at the time of chartering, one possibility included (1) the WG reaching consensus on requirements; (2) adopting EDHOC to polish it, perform enough analysis to assure ourselves that it provides the requisite security properties, and confirm that it fulfils the LAKE requirements; and then, (3) as the TLS WG had been doing the same for cTLS (perhaps modulo "confirm that it fulfils the LAKE requirements"), decide that the benefits gained by standardizing the new AKE (EDHOC) did not outweigh the costs of specifying a new AKE on the Internet ecosystem, and close the WG having not published any documents. So it remains unclear to me whether we are being asked to consider "should we spend time to do the polishing/analysis in (2) above", or if we are being asked to (implicitly) consider something like (3) above, i.e., is EDHOC or cTLS a better outcome for the greater Internet ecosystem. While I have not had the opportunity to closely follow the technical developments on either the EDHOC of cTLS protocols, I do know that advancements have been made. Perhaps they are both sufficiently well developed that we have enough information to answer (3) at this time, but it's not fully clear to me that we are all in agreement as to what is being asked. Thanks, Ben On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 03:54:37PM +0200, Mališa Vučinić wrote: > Hi all, > > Since we now have a rough consensus on the requirements document, we are proceeding with the selection of the LAKE for OSCORE our working group is chartered to work on. Given: > > - the LAKE working group charter, > - a wide community support over an extensive period of time for draft-selander-lake-edhoc, > - adoption of the cTLS draft by the TLS working group where it will be further developed, > - that no other drafts have been submitted for consideration of the LAKE working group, > > we are now launching a call for adoption for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-selander-lake-edhoc-01 . > > Please reply to this thread whether you support the adoption, and indicate if you are ready to review if this draft becomes a working group document. > > The call for adoption ends on June 22nd, 2020. > > Your LAKE chairs. > -- > Lake mailing list > Lake@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake From nobody Wed Jun 24 16:07:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117223A11C8 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:07:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSf_-X7XBd9j for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0593D3A115D for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C566EBE3E; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 00:07:18 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T8q-f4cYDjy6; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 00:07:12 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8DF1BE39; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 00:07:11 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1593040032; bh=CMV1XEDNhjuBgWFHuko+8d5BdYZVdYv8gFYaG1KshrY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lw/9dmADC+d+FR+Hbtvg4Ea/IT9qh2hFULUnbaQgzdqX+E5mtdEqgXU3cASmwol5E t/Sz3B7FibjkH9RD8nRy9p5Nf7DNnB3IKKk5Lqi9u84cCDFROWchZD1ovKFR0VRygF cW4aeZAzqCga99NrLdYoi520YqrSAaLzAXdiqIic= To: Benjamin Kaduk , lake@ietf.org References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <20200624225431.GT58278@kduck.mit.edu> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 00:07:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200624225431.GT58278@kduck.mit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="L2sejAyUVIyeCPqrNePCD4Kf2NhteCvO5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:07:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --L2sejAyUVIyeCPqrNePCD4Kf2NhteCvO5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wf3rvu2fqKZ6PqGZgFyhLNL3EvWg2XIi0"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Benjamin Kaduk , lake@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <20200624225431.GT58278@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200624225431.GT58278@kduck.mit.edu> --wf3rvu2fqKZ6PqGZgFyhLNL3EvWg2XIi0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BE35E70BE39DDD6F5C375389" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BE35E70BE39DDD6F5C375389 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I'm confused as to why this is confusing tbh;-) On 24/06/2020 23:54, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > So it remains unclear to me whether we are being asked to consider "sho= uld > we spend time to do the polishing/analysis in (2) above", or if we are > being asked to (implicitly) consider something like (3) above, i.e., is= > EDHOC or cTLS a better outcome for the greater Internet ecosystem. Let me try this way: - TLS has adopted cTLS. That will follow IETF process and turn into an RFC or not. - The question here is whether or not this WG wants to adopt edhoc, and then follow the usual IETF process which will turn that into an RFC, or not. If this WG adopts edhoc, one or both of cTLS and edhoc might or might not end up as an RFC. If the WG don't adopt edhoc, then yes, it'd be time to shut up shop for this WG is my guess. It is also true that once a WG adopts a draft, it is quite likely to end up as an RFC, but that is not the question we're answering now, and is not one we can answer, as it requires an IETF last call etc. Does that help? 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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BZkZuF1aNXOx for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 863A53A11DC for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 05ONge1E013343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:42:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:40 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Stephen Farrell Cc: lake@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200624234240.GV58278@kduck.mit.edu> References: <89EA6A63-AB99-4649-9F08-D6FBDE1DEF2F@inria.fr> <20200624225431.GT58278@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lake] Call for adoption for draft-selander-lake-edhoc - respond by June 22 X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 23:42:49 -0000 On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:07:10AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > I'm confused as to why this is confusing tbh;-) Fair enough :) > On 24/06/2020 23:54, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > So it remains unclear to me whether we are being asked to consider "should > > we spend time to do the polishing/analysis in (2) above", or if we are > > being asked to (implicitly) consider something like (3) above, i.e., is > > EDHOC or cTLS a better outcome for the greater Internet ecosystem. > > Let me try this way: > > - TLS has adopted cTLS. That will follow IETF process > and turn into an RFC or not. > - The question here is whether or not this WG wants to > adopt edhoc, and then follow the usual IETF process > which will turn that into an RFC, or not. > > If this WG adopts edhoc, one or both of cTLS and edhoc > might or might not end up as an RFC. > > If the WG don't adopt edhoc, then yes, it'd be time to > shut up shop for this WG is my guess. > > It is also true that once a WG adopts a draft, it is > quite likely to end up as an RFC, but that is not the > question we're answering now, and is not one we can > answer, as it requires an IETF last call etc. > > Does that help? That all sounds good, thanks. -Ben From nobody Thu Jun 25 00:27:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74013A0819 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 00:27:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sony.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D3aQQWg6RrnZ for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2020 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