From nobody Wed Jun 1 08:08:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD9F12D5D3 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:08:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBsBKR0Cecn7 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor36.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53DB412D5BA for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 08:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id CD6D9C1066; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:07:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.32]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A1D8612007F; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:07:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b08d:5b75:e92c:a45f]) by OPEXCLILM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8924:188:2124:a046%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:07:58 +0200 From: To: "Salz, Rich" Thread-Topic: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg Thread-Index: AdG2oOngMNPONAozTT6BlITkLElwVgADXNnQAVi8ZmA= Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:07:57 +0000 Message-ID: <18427_1464793678_574EFA4E_18427_10973_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFB@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <29549_1464193095_5745D047_29549_13265_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAE4EC9@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <49b5d54c7fc74055a9b53a743ca90b20@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <49b5d54c7fc74055a9b53a743ca90b20@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFBOPEXCLILM44corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lurk@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lurk] draft-erb-lurk-rsalg X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 15:08:02 -0000 --_000_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFBOPEXCLILM44corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rich, How many flights are there in the following: The basic premise of RSALG is that in the TLS_RSA_* handshakes: o The KeyOwner will not decrypt the PMS and provide it back to the Server. Instead, the KeyOwner will full compute the Master Secret (via the PRF function) and provide that. o The Server will choose a random ephemeral value, N, and provide a cryptographically-hashed value of (such as SHA256(N)) as its Server Random value. The Server sends N to KeyOwner which then computes the same hashed value and uses that hash as its input to the PRF. Regards Emile -----Original Message----- From: Salz, Rich [mailto:rsalz@akamai.com] Sent: mercredi 25 mai 2016 19:54 To: STEPHAN Emile IMT/OLN; lurk@ietf.org Subject: RE: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg > I was reading section 3.2. do you have more details on the flights ? Not sure what you mean, sorry. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFBOPEXCLILM44corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Rich,

 

How many flights are there in the following:=

 

   The = basic premise of RSALG is that in the TLS_RSA_* handshakes:<= /p>

 =

   o&nb= sp; The KeyOwner will not decrypt the PMS and provide it back to the

   = ;   Server.  Instead, the KeyOwner will full compute the Mas= ter Secret

   = ;   (via the PRF function) and provide that.

 =

   o&nb= sp; The Server will choose a random ephemeral value, N, and provide a<= /o:p>

   = ;   cryptographically-hashed value of (such as SHA256(N)) as its<= o:p>

   = ;   Server Random value.  The Server sends N to KeyOwner whi= ch then

   = ;   computes the same hashed value and uses that hash as its inpu= t to

   = ;   the PRF.

 

Regards

Emile

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Salz, Rich [mailto:rsalz@akamai.com]
Sent: mercredi 25 mai 2016 19:54
To: STEPHAN Emile IMT/OLN; lurk@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg

 

 

> I was reading section 3.2. do you have more = details on the flights ?

 

Not sure what you mean, sorry.

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFBOPEXCLILM44corp_-- From nobody Wed Jun 1 10:09:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B163112D094 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c4E3yjRtfRaM for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2117412B007 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE0B433662; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:09:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183FC433650; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:09:27 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1464800967; bh=WXIu4j2eGlxBbQU9xN8XUWWhq3BXT9YenOwpXmmGg9U=; l=10886; h=From:To:CC:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Su9MSK5BxvmWk0P55CIjRfQIwKEBB+FQWsllyalXwDjMgMrWJXBvPB0P94d+OrdAn qwGq4WHFjsnkhtWxyO9cnLnsLsdZYshN9H8nYOjSMjx2c/gvHSrCiwKwH7lTFUFNmX AqjskRPOO6MIpTTCtCuPrceBpOj9y/65nCdxM21o= Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com (usma1ex-cas2.msg.corp.akamai.com [172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150FB1FC90; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:09:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:09:26 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:09:26 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "emile.stephan@orange.com" Thread-Topic: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg Thread-Index: AdG2oOngMNPONAozTT6BlITkLElwVgADXNnQAVi8ZmAABcCnEA== Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 17:09:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1022186077594574b1ce7ebcad1599ae@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <29549_1464193095_5745D047_29549_13265_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAE4EC9@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <49b5d54c7fc74055a9b53a743ca90b20@usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com> <18427_1464793678_574EFA4E_18427_10973_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFB@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <18427_1464793678_574EFA4E_18427_10973_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB90FAF5CFB@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.40.220] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1022186077594574b1ce7ebcad1599aeusma1exdag1mb1msgcorpak_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "lurk@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lurk] draft-erb-lurk-rsalg X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 17:09:31 -0000 --_000_1022186077594574b1ce7ebcad1599aeusma1exdag1mb1msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One round-trip per PMS computation. -- Senior Architect, Akamai Technologies IM: richsalz@jabber.at Twitter: RichSalz From: emile.stephan@orange.com [mailto:emile.stephan@orange.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 11:08 AM To: Salz, Rich Cc: lurk@ietf.org Subject: RE: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg Hi Rich, How many flights are there in the following: The basic premise of RSALG is that in the TLS_RSA_* handshakes: o The KeyOwner will not decrypt the PMS and provide it back to the Server. Instead, the KeyOwner will full compute the Master Secret (via the PRF function) and provide that. o The Server will choose a random ephemeral value, N, and provide a cryptographically-hashed value of (such as SHA256(N)) as its Server Random value. The Server sends N to KeyOwner which then computes the same hashed value and uses that hash as its input to the PRF. Regards Emile -----Original Message----- From: Salz, Rich [mailto:rsalz@akamai.com] Sent: mercredi 25 mai 2016 19:54 To: STEPHAN Emile IMT/OLN; lurk@ietf.org Subject: RE: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg > I was reading section 3.2. do you have more details on the flights ? Not sure what you mean, sorry. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_1022186077594574b1ce7ebcad1599aeusma1exdag1mb1msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One round-trip per PMS= computation.

 

-- 

Senior Architect, Akam= ai Technologies

IM: richsalz@jabber.at= Twitter: RichSalz

 

From: emile.st= ephan@orange.com [mailto:emile.stephan@orange.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 11:08 AM
To: Salz, Rich
Cc: lurk@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg

 

Hi Rich,

 

How many flights are there in the following:=

 

   The ba= sic premise of RSALG is that in the TLS_RSA_* handshakes:

 

   o = ; The KeyOwner will not decrypt the PMS and provide it back to the

   &= nbsp;  Server.  Instead, the KeyOwner will full compute the Maste= r Secret

   &= nbsp;  (via the PRF function) and provide that.

 

   o = ; The Server will choose a random ephemeral value, N, and provide a

   &= nbsp;  cryptographically-hashed value of (such as SHA256(N)) as its

   &= nbsp;  Server Random value.  The Server sends N to KeyOwner which= then

   &= nbsp;  computes the same hashed value and uses that hash as its input = to

   &= nbsp;  the PRF.

 

Regards

Emile

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Salz, Rich [mailto:rsalz@akamai.c= om]
Sent: mercredi 25 mai 2016 19:54
To: STEPHAN Emile IMT/OLN; lurk@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-erb-lurk-rsalg

 

 

> I was reading section 3.2. do you have more = details on the flights ?

 

Not sure what you mean, sorry.

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p>
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_1022186077594574b1ce7ebcad1599aeusma1exdag1mb1msgcorpak_-- From nobody Fri Jun 3 16:53:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8738012D8F9 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=standardstrack.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LkvXRHIfQJlG for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biz104.inmotionhosting.com (biz104.inmotionhosting.com [173.247.247.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7F612D8E6 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 16:53:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=standardstrack.com; s=default; h=Mime-Version:Message-Id:To:References:Date :Subject:Content-Type:From; bh=7UOgsWbFBSQj29N5Xz8gxCyn7Z5OPZba1L1ahyS8SDY=; b=MyiPYj5TJA1LegO5yPilgDHWPIr/IHICeyKJfF0AYXYJQ8m/ZKrMhfbq/7ikoQ/2YZsxG+kyst icjCEHWvT1AqghG0HjouuOhR0hcEqdppeXBew0hdPuF58B58TvXDoL8yBI9f7FpQs6tX6tHWzmtLo Z2jtA98Tt/owvuUElGUI=; Received: from ip68-100-196-239.dc.dc.cox.net ([68.100.196.239]:57747 helo=[192.168.15.108]) by biz104.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1b8yts-0006Mx-Jb for lurk@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2016 16:53:16 -0700 From: Eric Burger X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4CD4C1F5-A091-4B48-A98E-4C410A7BCDCB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 19:53:27 -0400 References: To: LURK BoF Message-Id: <917BEE8E-CA2C-4A7F-9484-D8012373A377@standardstrack.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz104.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz104.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: eburger+standardstrack.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: biz104.inmotionhosting.com: eburger@standardstrack.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: [Lurk] LURK Draft Interim meeting notes X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 23:53:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4CD4C1F5-A091-4B48-A98E-4C410A7BCDCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks to Sam for the notes! LURK Datatracker Info Page: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/lurk/meetings/ PLEASE RSVP +1 / corrections by June 10. Thanks. LURK Interim BOF meeting discussion notes ------------ chair slides Eric Burger declared quorum do we want another face-to-face BoF in Berlin? no dissent in posted agenda we have a jabber room lurk.jabber.ietf.org session being recorded [BUT Eric screwed up and cannot find the = recording] ----------------------- Lurk TLS/DTLS use cases Daniel Migault use cases - VM's, content provider, content owner/content provider, CDNI requirements - looking for feedback on R3 specifically PHB - split key may be neccessary, hard to do in RSA, easy to do in = EC/DH Yaron - why is this different than authenticating the key server? PHB - may not full trust box (Key Owner?) to have key Rich - do we have any split key documents or use anywhere? PHB - not sure, but is easy to do in EC/DH. Would just need new key = formats don't want to back us into a corner Rich - without the details, unclear how this can be a requirement [unknown] - needs to be phrased in turns of threat modeling, etc. not = in terms of algorithms PHB - need to insure that compromise of the system requires compromise = of both devices (hard drives get sold later, etc) [unknown] - we are expanding risk scope to include key server? PHB - yes Yaron - maybe diving too deep into this one? Eric B - will send to the list - do we want split keys added to the = charter? questions in the jabber room on R3, R4 Martin - R3 does not make sense [audio cut out for ~30 seconds, missed discussion] does not understand how we can implement a protocol that does = not cover R3 PHB - did we mention generating keys in the first place? Daniel - only consider interactions between Server/Key Server, did not = consider generation PHB - do we need a configuration protocol? Yaron - we don't have protocols for configuring standard web servers PHB - most of the complexity implementing is configuration Stephen - container/VM use case, can the source of that use case please = explain more? how are we keeping secrets out of containers/VMs? Rich - if the TLS key gets out, any impersonation is possible, if = Server->KeyOwner auth key gets out, not as bad - avoids hard revocation Stephen - needs more flushing out, a whole bunch of ways you can lose = VM's Rich - less dangerous to lose Server->KeyOwner key Yaron - we need more percise definition of threat model ------------------------------------ delegating TLS certificates to a CDN Yaron Sheffer unhappy with every connection requring a connection to another box - = drive to use short term certificates Eric R - CDNs are for bandwidth reduction, also session resumption = avoids LURK per-connection simple API w/ PKCS12 payload security considerations - - revoke in the event of compromise - needs protection from rouge CDN issuing certificate (this can be = applied more generally) Rich - mupltiple certificate use case/splitting needs to be addressed = here Eric R - CDN's do not want to have a certificate with an end-entity = name in it Yaron - for ceritifcation/compliance reasons ? Eric R - yes Eric - from the chat room - if you don't trust your CDN, you need LURK, = if you do, you do not need LURK PHB - gives more agility, but is more interested in the code signing = use case, rather than CDN ------------------------------------------ LURK TLS/DTLS Content Provider Edge Server Daniel Migault [audio cut out for ~30 seconds, missed first 2 slides, audio problems = fixed] skipping a few slides to avoid detailed protocol discussion ECDHE unpredictable signature - modified edge server random Eric R - the reason there is usually concern about this is = cross-protocol attacks this may still not be limited enough as you are only restricting = 32 bytes in what gets signed Yaron - should we change the no generic signing oracle requirement? Eric R - Stephen in IM says that we should hold on to this for later ------------------------------------------------ PFS-preserving protocol for LURK Sam Erb - Add supported TLS versions? - Added =E2=80=9Csession ticket=E2=80=9D request - Added state field; so server can know when things like keys = rotated - Open issues - PHB Worried about =E2=80=9Cclosed=E2=80=9D operations, for = future TLS versions; e.g., not a number in an IANA registry - PHB prefers another encoding ------------------- Use Cases - 4 cases 1) container/VM 2) content provider 3) content-owner/content-provider 4) CDNI Eric B - polling for interest < runs through room participants > PHB - interest in code signing (not including in list above) Eric B - there are 2 additional use cases [what was the second?] Eric B - do we want to write a charter & have a BoF in Berlin? < seems to be conensus to write a charter first > Eric B and Yaron will take first pass at charter Eric B - wants to wait for Berlin to present charter to larger community --Apple-Mail=_4CD4C1F5-A091-4B48-A98E-4C410A7BCDCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXUhh3AAoJEORoZaSQsc1IBOYP/Ra+IfqaWGnjuTCQm5L55TcE sTXZxF4HqiurE7rsEkRPlIlv7HMSiRN9UoyYkIW1dLx9PJor8Ob+aZVtNLQEm0AZ u1EnujNvGuyOumdITcXarj/taeKQljnTarlIdzQonywX3v3U5dRkqItnpbGk5+Fs dfgdp+xovBfwOLhalpmw1cBiRk2dL+V5M5qblBLGGzC3IgqxAxM50aZGSXdJTZYc LtfVwj6kaKNa/ayx5+IMts4z5GE/Po7OGgn5U/LIOn/FjkTQivB0sCo+ErbufUIl v4kN+U1rzlGnNqVHPvlbl0uBMFZLSXQZAZkuU2OFpam4SG/0W3xv5isvs/A8873R SxYc1ZObBjPLOY6QqMec6Ubxe8/YmJpFmpW9kPL1xBOeAaTCzS6AuEr5UAn3t0gc D7aSrsf1twASJP21F4mJgnf49DTEEMlnEqDoR86/AS1ZZK56FCtd1n/kjn1/5yV2 z55ljIb6IEpW1HxuasapOFbpo2ddLhQkanwyGY+HBPu7PQDwPDWLyYh8DWs8hvVR 3LabBkLHuk05pgXTRvpY1N1KKDi0kdl227cJeGyUu/K7mkOGXVyy4nTjDDkBuQvv eauGwDqxxZBuHtSvlDykf648s6nOn5eH884QjfjQrklq+6QecVguhu+D8SWUVVMh fTYD2diWuZDA163YJbVV =OWS2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4CD4C1F5-A091-4B48-A98E-4C410A7BCDCB-- From nobody Fri Jun 10 09:35:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietf.org Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15AA12D81B; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:35:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool\"" To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160610163503.30414.71009.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:35:03 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: avezza@amsl.com, lurk@ietf.org, lurk-chairs@ietf.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Subject: [Lurk] lurk - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 96 X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:35:05 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Amy K. Vezza, on behalf of the lurk working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Limited Use of Remote Keys Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: rtcweb httpbis stir modern mile uta abfab ace acme cose curdle dane dots httpauth i2nsf ipsecme jose kitten oauth openpgp sacm tls tokbind trans Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jun 15 20:31:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BD312D60C for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:31:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8cWwxPqhmHmE for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9523112D764 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CMA65960; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:31:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 04:31:29 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:31:21 +0800 From: Youjianjie To: "lurk@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Is this scenario covered by LURK? Thread-Index: AdHHf4zloHgIrDjQQiexFKw3NVhmxw== Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:31:21 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.78.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.57621D92.0004, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: bea63a5f6915abbcdb27c1a20997f196 Archived-At: Subject: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:31:34 -0000 Hi I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following scenario = is covered by the LURK. In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in differe= nt administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to deliver the = content. The content provider participates the delivery of a content, provi= ding necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=20 For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network. T= here may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key manager in= the operator's network. In order to do traffic management, the key manager= needs to interact with the key server located in the content owner domain,= in order to do traffic management since the packets are encrypted. Here, t= he interaction between key manager (e.g. operator's network) and key server= (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is this use case in the scope= of LURK? Thanks, Jianjie From nobody Thu Jun 16 05:40:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7175812D57B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 05:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtJTAfQV634Z for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 05:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB40012D195 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 05:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr712umx3.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.245.210.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 7E797FD21DB2; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:40:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by fr712umx3.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO-o) with ESMTP id u5GCen1n005846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:40:49 GMT Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id u5GCelPY025079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:40:48 +0200 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA08.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.4.136]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:40:26 +0200 From: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" To: Youjianjie , "lurk@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? Thread-Index: AQHRx8xBz1o7Mu+ryEeVdqONhde/zA== Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:40:26 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <45575FCBF60E7F489D771B31E793529D@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:40:54 -0000 Hi Jianjie, On 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" wrote: >Hi > >I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following >scenario is covered by the LURK. > >In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in >different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to >deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of a >content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS. > >For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network. >There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key manager >in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management, the key >manager needs to interact with the key server located in the content >owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the packets are >encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g. operator's >network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is >this use case in the scope of LURK? Could you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are envisaging between the key manager and the key server? Cheers, t From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:26:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD0F12D5F0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:26:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwexkd-tCBkb for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5380412D625 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:26:50 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f796f6d000000e1e-ef-5762a8ddd4f5 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C7.6B.03614.DD8A2675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:25:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB107.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.124]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:26:49 -0400 From: Daniel Migault To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" , Youjianjie , "lurk@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? Thread-Index: AQHRx8xBz1o7Mu+ryEeVdqONhde/zJ/sE7KQ Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:26:49 +0000 Message-ID: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C117F199EB@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+69FUnhBjtfCli8XeNn0fL5E5vF hhUxDsweLUfesnosWfKTyePurUtMAcxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBkL+/ewF0wSrnh6eBlrA+NB /i5GTg4JAROJX8tXMUHYYhIX7q1nA7GFBI4ySlxdFdPFyAVkL2eUuH5iFQtIgk3ASKLtUD87 SEJEoIVR4uLiK8wgCWEBU4lpD+aCTRIRMJPY9mQ2I4RtJDFz83OwOIuAqkTnz99g9bwCvhIb FyxhhdhmJzFpzgawGk4Be4l15/+B9TICXfT91BqwOLOAuMStJ/OhLhWQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/ VghbUWJf/3R2iHodiQW7P7FB2NoSyxa+htorKHFy5hOWCYyis5CMnYWkZRaSlllIWhYwsqxi 5CgtLsjJTTcy3MQIjI9jEmyOOxj39noeYhTgYFTi4X1wPjFciDWxrLgy9xCjBAezkghv+PKk cCHelMTKqtSi/Pii0pzU4kOM0hwsSuK8+i8Vw4UE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2Mmdt+B585 4Gkx/+PkJ9fPMc0QMlPa6f7L6YfGZ7EfsYe9Zv+2C0/ZY3w2V7e2sHC9v3TkaQfdhZl7/yQJ h8edSDlVdfWD3HypByn2pp9NDiQVnVy93DlPhKnvkpSOjfOtp8c0Pt+axvLu88Xyt3IfQ9rL 9Z9dWHCsvlHM5UAv6wbpMP2SR/OZlViKMxINtZiLihMBuIa5bYsCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:26:52 -0000 Hi Jianjie, Thank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at pro= viding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context of= TLS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional el= ement designated as a Key Manager. From the description it is not clear to= me what role the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers a= nd the Key Server.=20 =20 Could you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions bet= ween: - the Key Manger and Key Server=20 - the Key Manager and the Edge Server =20 =20 In addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think th= e use cases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please poi= nt what is missing ? BR,=20 Daniel -----Original Message----- From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB) Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? Hi Jianjie, On 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" wrote: >Hi > >I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following=20 >scenario is covered by the LURK. > >In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=20 >different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to=20 >deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of=20 >a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS. > >For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network. >There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key=20 >manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,=20 >the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the=20 >content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the=20 >packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.=20 >operator's >network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is=20 >this use case in the scope of LURK? Could you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are en= visaging between the key manager and the key server? Cheers, t _______________________________________________ Lurk mailing list Lurk@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk From nobody Thu Jun 16 19:43:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D7212DA9F for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:43:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.636 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.636 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GxwbZFI3jBuH for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30B8C12DA17 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CQY39335; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:43:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 03:43:08 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:42:29 +0800 From: Youjianjie To: Daniel Migault , "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" , "lurk@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? Thread-Index: AQHRx8xBz1o7Mu+ryEeVdqONhde/zJ/sE7KQgADZxsA= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:42:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C117F199EB@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C117F199EB@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.78.148] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0B314NKGEML515MBXchina_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.576363BE.001C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e728a7dcdb4d78be4337cc0c11659dfa Archived-At: Subject: [Lurk] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIElzIHRoaXMgc2NlbmFyaW8gY292ZXJlZCBi?= =?gb2312?b?eSBMVVJLPw==?= X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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Hi Daniel, Thomas,

 

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 

 

Please also see my comments = inline below:

 

Thanks,

Jianjie

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Da= niel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com]

> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216= =C8=D5 21:27

> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fo= ssati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lur= k] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,<= /span>

>

> Thank you for bringing = a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at

> providing an interface = between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context of

> TLS. If I am correct, t= he use case you provide introduces an additional element<= /p>

> designated as a Key Man= ager.  From the description it is not clear to me what

> role the Key Manager ha= s, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key

> Server.

 

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

&= nbsp;

> Could you specify what = role the Key Manager has as well as interactions

> between:

>    -&nbs= p; the Key Manger and Key Server

&= nbsp;

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

&= nbsp;

>    - the= Key Manager and the Edge Server

&= nbsp;

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 

> In addition, it might b= e also helpful to provide feed back why you think the use=

> cases of the draft do n= ot address your use case. Could you please point what is<= /p>

> missing ?

 

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01

&= nbsp;

> BR,

> Daniel

>

>

> -----Original Message--= ---

> From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, Tho= mas

> (Nokia - GB)=

> Sent: Thursday, June 16= , 2016 8:40 AM

> To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is = this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,<= /span>

>

> On 16/06/2016 04:31, &q= uot;Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of youjianjie@huawei.com<= /span>> wrote:

> >Hi

> ><= /p>

> >I've a question abo= ut the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> >scenario is covered= by the LURK.

> ><= /p>

> >In this scenario, t= he Content Provider and the Content Owner are in

> >different administr= ative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> >deliver the content= . The content provider participates the delivery of

> >a content, providin= g necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.

> ><= /p>

> >For example, the ed= ge server can be middle-box in the operator's network.

> >There may be multip= le middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> >manager in the oper= ator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> >the key manager nee= ds to interact with the key server located in the

> >content owner domai= n, in order to do traffic management since the

> >packets are encrypt= ed. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> >operator's

> >network) and key se= rver (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is

> >this use case in th= e scope of LURK?

>

> Could you spend a few m= ore lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> envisaging between the = key manager and the key server?

>

> Cheers, t

>

> _______________________= ________________________

> Lurk mailing list<= /o:p>

> Lurk@ietf.o= rg

> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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Hi, <= o:p>

=  

Thank= s for providing the picture. If I correctly get it, the Key Manager works a= s a proxy that concentrates the queries from the different edge servers. Th= e key manager is the only node of the content provider  interacting with the key server of the content owne= r.

I do = not think we have specific text related to that yet, but I do not think any= thing that prevents from doing it: lurk is used between the edge servers an= d the key manager =A8C I would see that as the container use case - as well as between the key manager and the key= server =A8C which I would then see as the content provider / content owner= use case.

I wil= l add some text to cover this use case more precisely. Thanks for submittin= g the use case!

=  

BR, <= o:p>

Danie= l

 = ;

From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Youjianjie
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 10:42 PM
To: Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
Subject: [Lurk]
=B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario cov= ered by LURK?

 =

Hi Daniel, Thomas,

 

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 

 

Please also see my comments inline below:

 

Thanks,

Jianjie

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com]

> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8= =D5 21:27

> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,

>

> Thank you for bringing a potential new use c= ase. Currently LURK aims at

> providing an interface between Edge Servers = and the Key Server in a context of

> TLS. If I am correct, the use case you provi= de introduces an additional element

> designated as a Key Manager.  From the = description it is not clear to me what

> role the Key Manager has, and its relation w= ith the Edge Servers and the Key

> Server.

 

The reason why we int= roduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in some cases. It's= better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner if = the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 

> Could you specify what role the Key Manager = has as well as interactions

> between:

>    -  the Key Manger and= Key Server

 

Key information needs= to be interacted between them.

 

>    - the Key Manager and the = Edge Server

 

Key information needs= to be interacted between them.

 

> In addition, it might be also helpful to pro= vide feed back why you think the use

> cases of the draft do not address your use c= ase. Could you please point what is

> missing ?

 

Is the content owner = also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use case doc?<= /o:p>

https://tools.ietf.org/= html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01

 

> BR,

> Daniel

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (Nokia - GB)

> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered= by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,

>

> On 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of= Youjianjie" <lurk-bounces@ietf.org=

> on behalf of youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:=

> >Hi

> >

> >I've a question about the scenario. I'm = not sure if the following

> >scenario is covered by the LURK.

> >

> >In this scenario, the Content Provider a= nd the Content Owner are in

> >different administrative domain. Content= owner is also responsible to

> >deliver the content. The content provide= r participates the delivery of

> >a content, providing necessary traffic m= anagement, such as FW, IPS.

> >

> >For example, the edge server can be midd= le-box in the operator's network.

> >There may be multiple middle-boxes, whic= h can be managed by a key

> >manager in the operator's network. In or= der to do traffic management,

> >the key manager needs to interact with t= he key server located in the

> >content owner domain, in order to do tra= ffic management since the

> >packets are encrypted. Here, the interac= tion between key manager (e.g.

> >operator's

> >network) and key server (in content owne= r) needs to be standardized? Is

> >this use case in the scope of LURK?=

>

> Could you spend a few more lines on the kind= of interaction that you are

> envisaging between the key manager and the k= ey server?

>

> Cheers, t

>

> ____________________________________________= ___

> Lurk mailing list

> Lurk@ietf.org

> https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk

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Hi Jianjie,

I've been staring at the picture for a while but I still don't un= derstand whet= her what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that terminates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some= other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to talk to = the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

If the former, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK= proxy =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise = once the LURK interfaces are defined.

If the latter, I don't see= m to remember anyone presenting this use case either at the BoF, on list, o= r in the interim meeting.

Cheers, t

From: Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42 To: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, &qu= ot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is th= is scenario covered by LURK?

Hi Daniel, Thomas,

 

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 

 

Please also see my comments = inline below:

 

Thanks,

Jianjie

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Da= niel Migault [mailto:daniel.= migault@ericsson.com]

> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216= =C8=D5 21:27

> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fo= ssati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lur= k] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,<= /span>

>

> Thank you for bringing = a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at

> providing an interface = between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context of

> TLS. If I am correct, t= he use case you provide introduces an additional element<= /p>

> designated as a Key Man= ager.  From the description it is not clear to me what

> role the Key Manager ha= s, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key

> Server.

 

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

&= nbsp;

> Could you specify what = role the Key Manager has as well as interactions

> between:

>    -&nbs= p; the Key Manger and Key Server

&= nbsp;

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

&= nbsp;

>    - the= Key Manager and the Edge Server

&= nbsp;

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 

> In addition, it might b= e also helpful to provide feed back why you think the use=

> cases of the draft do n= ot address your use case. Could you please point what is<= /p>

> missing ?

 

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

&= nbsp;

> BR,

> Daniel

>

>

> -----Original Message--= ---

> From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, Tho= mas

> (Nokia - GB)=

> Sent: Thursday, June 16= , 2016 8:40 AM

> To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is = this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,<= /span>

>

> On 16/06/2016 04:31, &q= uot;Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of youjianjie@huawei.com<= /span>> wrote:

> >Hi

> ><= /p>

> >I've a question abo= ut the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> >scenario is covered= by the LURK.

> ><= /p>

> >In this scenario, t= he Content Provider and the Content Owner are in

> >different administr= ative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> >deliver the content= . The content provider participates the delivery of

> >a content, providin= g necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.

> ><= /p>

> >For example, the ed= ge server can be middle-box in the operator's network.

> >There may be multip= le middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> >manager in the oper= ator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> >the key manager nee= ds to interact with the key server located in the

> >content owner domai= n, in order to do traffic management since the

> >packets are encrypt= ed. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> >operator's

> >network) and key se= rver (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is

> >this use case in th= e scope of LURK?

>

> Could you spend a few m= ore lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> envisaging between the = key manager and the key server?

>

> Cheers, t

>

> _______________________= ________________________

> Lurk mailing list<= /o:p>

> Lurk@ietf.o= rg

> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

&n= bsp;

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

&n= bsp;

Further= comments are welcome.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219=C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf= .org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Jianjie,

 

I've been staring at the pictur= e for a while but I still don't understand whether what you call = "Edge Server" is actually a cache that terminates the TLS connect= ion on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to talk to the Key Server to= DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the former, your "= Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy =A1=AA I don't thin= k there is anything new to standardise once the LURK interfaces are defined= .

 

If the latter, I don'= t seem to remember anyone presenting this use case either at the BoF, on li= st, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagra= m illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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=?gb2312?B?W0x1cmtdILTwuLQ6ICBJcyB0aGlzIHNjZW5hcmlvIGNvdmVyZWQgYnkgTFVS?= =?gb2312?Q?K=3F?= Thread-Index: AQHRyMkwE4ihwpryRU2EAVjUY7zMNp/x58iQ Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:48:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C117F199EB@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C117F1A07E@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C117F1A07E@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.78.148] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0BD7FNKGEML515MBXchina_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.576791E6.00EA, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: af4ab6395c27bf525f6954d33430c802 Archived-At: Subject: [Lurk] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogILTwuLQ6ICBJcyB0aGlzIHNjZW5hcmlvIGNv?= =?gb2312?b?dmVyZWQgYnkgTFVSSz8=?= X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:49:17 -0000 --_004_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0BD7FNKGEML515MBXchina_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0BD7FNKGEML515MBXchina_" --_000_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0BD7FNKGEML515MBXchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRGFuaWVsLA0KDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgaW4gYm90aCBjb250YWluZXIgdXNlIGNhc2UgYW5kIGNv bnRlbnQgcHJvdmlkZXIgLyBjb250ZW50IG93bmVyIHVzZSBjYXNlIChodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtbWdsdC1sdXJrLXRscy11c2UtY2FzZXMtMDEpLCB0aGUgZWRnZSBz ZXJ2ZXIgKG5vdCB0aGUga2V5IHNlcnZlcikgaXMgZXhwZWN0ZWQgdG8gZGVsaXZlciBjb250ZW50 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Hi Dani= el,

&n= bsp;

I th= ink in both container use case and content provider / content owner use cas= e (https://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01), the edge server (not the key server) is expected to deliver content traffi= c.

 

The = figure below is supposed that the TLS connection is terminated at the conte= nt owner side (not the edge server). The edge server is on the data path, i= t can do traffic management if it is trusted and authorized.

 

Furt= her comments are welcome.

 

Than= ks,

Jian= jie

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@erics= son.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C218=C8=D5 2:51
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for providing the picture. If I correctly get it, the Key = Manager works as a proxy that concentrates the queries from the different e= dge servers. The key manager is the only node of the content provider  interacting with the key server of the = content owner.

I do not think we have specific text related to that yet, but I d= o not think anything that prevents from doing it: lurk is used between the = edge servers and the key manager =A8C I would see that as the container use case - as well as between the key manager an= d the key server =A8C which I would then see as the content provider / cont= ent owner use case.

I will add some text to cover this use case more precisely. Thank= s for submitting the use case!

 

BR,

Daniel

 

From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Youjianjie
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 10:42 PM
To: Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
Subject: [Lurk]
=B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scena= rio covered by LURK?

 

Hi Daniel, Thomas,

 

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 

 

Please also see my comments = inline below:

 

Thanks,

Jianjie

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Da= niel Migault [mailto:daniel.= migault@ericsson.com]

> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216= =C8=D5 21:27

> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fo= ssati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lur= k] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,<= /span>

>

> Thank you for bringing = a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at

> providing an interface = between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context of

> TLS. If I am correct, t= he use case you provide introduces an additional element<= /p>

> designated as a Key Man= ager.  From the description it is not clear to me what

> role the Key Manager ha= s, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key

> Server.

 

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

&= nbsp;

> Could you specify what = role the Key Manager has as well as interactions

> between:

>    -&nbs= p; the Key Manger and Key Server

&= nbsp;

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

&= nbsp;

>    - the= Key Manager and the Edge Server

&= nbsp;

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 

> In addition, it might b= e also helpful to provide feed back why you think the use=

> cases of the draft do n= ot address your use case. Could you please point what is<= /p>

> missing ?

 

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01

&= nbsp;

> BR,

> Daniel

>

>

> -----Original Message--= ---

> From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, Tho= mas

> (Nokia - GB)=

> Sent: Thursday, June 16= , 2016 8:40 AM

> To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is = this scenario covered by LURK?

>

> Hi Jianjie,<= /span>

>

> On 16/06/2016 04:31, &q= uot;Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <lurk-bounces@ietf.org

> on behalf of youjianjie@huawei.com<= /span>> wrote:

> >Hi

> ><= /p>

> >I've a question abo= ut the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> >scenario is covered= by the LURK.

> ><= /p>

> >In this scenario, t= he Content Provider and the Content Owner are in

> >different administr= ative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> >deliver the content= . The content provider participates the delivery of

> >a content, providin= g necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.

> ><= /p>

> >For example, the ed= ge server can be middle-box in the operator's network.

> >There may be multip= le middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> >manager in the oper= ator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> >the key manager nee= ds to interact with the key server located in the

> >content owner domai= n, in order to do traffic management since the

> >packets are encrypt= ed. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> >operator's

> >network) and key se= rver (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is

> >this use case in th= e scope of LURK?

>

> Could you spend a few m= ore lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> envisaging between the = key manager and the key server?

>

> Cheers, t

>

> _______________________= ________________________

> Lurk mailing list<= /o:p>

> Lurk@ietf.o= rg

> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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Thanks Jianjie.

I was slightly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the L= URK drafts) "edge server" has been used with distinct semantics = =A1=AA i.e. a HTTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your p= icture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firewall, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.
 
IIUC, what you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chu= nk of encrypted bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort o= f DPI by proxy if you like) while at the same time hiding topological detai= ls about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).

While I think this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling = this use case in to the picture at this point in time would derail the work= ing group focus in endless political discussions.

However, we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK mus= t evolve (both refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as we= ll) and thus it needs to be built with an extensible interface from the ons= et.

Cheers, t

PS: It'd be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that= we can have a more precise idea of what you have in mind?

From: Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26 To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - = GB)" <thomas.fossati@no= kia.com>, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4= =F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

&n= bsp;

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

&n= bsp;

Further= comments are welcome.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219=C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Jianjie,

 

I've been staring at the pictur= e for a while but I still don't understand whether what you call = "Edge Server" is actually a cache that terminates the TLS connect= ion on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to talk to the Key Server to= DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the former, your "= Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy =A1=AA I don't thin= k there is anything new to standardise once the LURK interfaces are defined= .

 

If the latter, I don'= t seem to remember anyone presenting this use case either at the BoF, on li= st, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illu= strating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7hcauVwkyffB for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7B4A12D15E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC7330048E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:17:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id bFe44SyH3SDq for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.100] (pool-108-51-128-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.128.219]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F1D6300263; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:17:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E6F6ED8B-AAC1-4C21-A470-B6DEBF8BE489" Message-Id: <0EAAB1B7-2247-4C52-863E-08F5C173B859@vigilsec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:17:27 -0400 References: To: youjianjie@huawei.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Cc: IETF LURK Subject: [Lurk] Fwd: Is this scenario covered by LURK? X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:17:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E6F6ED8B-AAC1-4C21-A470-B6DEBF8BE489 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Youjianjie: I=A1=AFm sorry, but I do not get it. In your diagram, the TLS = Connection terminates at the same place as the Content Server/Key = Server. So, LURK is not needed for the Key Server to perform operation = on behalf of the Content Server, and the Edge Servers do not need key = operations because they do not terminate the TLS Connection. Russ =20 Begin forwarded message: > From: Youjianjie > Subject: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK? > Date: June 16, 2016 at 10:42:29 PM EDT > To: Daniel Migault , "Fossati, Thomas = (Nokia - GB)" , "lurk@ietf.org" = >=20 > Hi Daniel, Thomas, > =20 > Here=A1=AFs a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to mean. > =20 >=20 > =20 > Please also see my comments inline below: > =20 > Thanks, > Jianjie > > -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Daniel Migault = [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com] > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; = lurk@ietf.org > > =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? > > > > Hi Jianjie, > > > > Thank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims = at > > providing an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a = context of > > TLS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an = additional element > > designated as a Key Manager. =46rom the description it is not clear = to me what > > role the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and = the Key > > Server. > =20 > The reason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge = servers in some cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge = servers to the content owner if the Content Provider and the Content = Owner are in different administrative domain. > =20 > > Could you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as = interactions > > between: > > - the Key Manger and Key Server > =20 > Key information needs to be interacted between them. > =20 > > - the Key Manager and the Edge Server > =20 > Key information needs to be interacted between them. > =20 > > In addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you = think the use > > cases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please = point what is > > missing ? > =20 > Is the content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the = current use case doc? > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01 > =20 > > BR, > > Daniel > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, = Thomas > > (Nokia - GB) > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM > > To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK? > > > > Hi Jianjie, > > > > On 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" = > on behalf of youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote: > > >Hi > > > > > >I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following > > >scenario is covered by the LURK. > > > > > >In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in > > >different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible = to > > >deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery = of > > >a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS. > > > > > >For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's = network. > > >There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key > > >manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic = management, > > >the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in = the > > >content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the > > >packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager = (e.g. > > >operator's > > >network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be = standardized? Is > > >this use case in the scope of LURK? > > > > Could you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you = are > > envisaging between the key manager and the key server? > > > > Cheers, t > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lurk mailing list > > Lurk@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk > _______________________________________________ > Lurk mailing list > Lurk@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk --Apple-Mail=_E6F6ED8B-AAC1-4C21-A470-B6DEBF8BE489 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DE01C1E1-E115-44AC-A271-2FA23B2DE082" --Apple-Mail=_DE01C1E1-E115-44AC-A271-2FA23B2DE082 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312
Youjianjie:

I=A1=AFm sorry, but I do not = get it.  In your diagram, the TLS Connection terminates at the same = place as the Content Server/Key Server.  So, LURK is not needed for = the Key Server to perform operation on behalf of the Content Server, and = the Edge Servers do not need key operations because they do not = terminate the TLS Connection.

Russ
 

Begin forwarded = message:

From: = Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Subject: = [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4= : Is this scenario covered by LURK?
Date: June 16, 2016 at 10:42:29 PM = EDT

Hi Daniel, Thomas,
 
Here=A1=AFs= a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to = mean.
 
 
Please also see my comments inline = below:
 
Thanks,
Jianjie
> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com]
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27
=
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by = LURK?
>
> Hi Jianjie,
>
> Thank you for bringing a potential new use case. = Currently LURK aims at
> providing an interface between = Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of
> TLS. If I am correct, the use case you provide = introduces an additional element
> designated as a Key = Manager.  =46rom the description it is not clear to me = what
> role the Key Manager has, and its relation with the = Edge Servers and the Key
> = Server.
 
The reason why we introduce a Key manager is = that there're many edge servers in some cases. It's better not to expose = the topology of edge servers to the content owner if the Content = Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative = domain.
 
> Could you specify what role the Key Manager has as = well as interactions
> = between:
>    -  the Key Manger and Key = Server
 
Key information needs to be interacted between = them.
 
>    - the Key Manager and the Edge = Server
 
Key information needs to be interacted between = them.
 
> In addition, it might be also helpful to provide = feed back why you think the use
> cases of the draft do = not address your use case. Could you please point what = is
> missing ?
 
Is the content owner also = expected to deliver content traffic in the current use case = doc?
> From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, = Thomas
> (Nokia - GB)
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, = 2016 8:40 AM
> To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Lurk] Is = this scenario covered by LURK?
>
> Hi Jianjie,
>
> On 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" = <lurk-bounces@ietf.org
> = >Hi
> >
> >I've a question about the = scenario. I'm not sure if the following
> >scenario is covered = by the LURK.
> >
> >In this scenario, the Content = Provider and the Content Owner are in
> >different = administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible = to
> >deliver the content. The content provider = participates the delivery of
> >a content, providing = necessary traffic management, such as FW, = IPS.
> >
> >For example, the edge server = can be middle-box in the operator's network.
> >There may be = multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a = key
> >manager in the operator's network. In order to = do traffic management,
> >the key manager needs to = interact with the key server located in the
> >content owner = domain, in order to do traffic management since = the
> >packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction = between key manager (e.g.
> = >operator's
> >network) and key server (in content owner) needs = to be standardized? Is
> >this use case in the scope of = LURK?
>
> Could you spend a few more lines on the kind of = interaction that you are
> envisaging between the key = manager and the key server?
>
> Cheers, = t
>
> = _______________________________________________
> Lurk mailing = list
_______________________________________________
Lurk = mailing list
Lurk@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk

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--Apple-Mail=_DE01C1E1-E115-44AC-A271-2FA23B2DE082-- --Apple-Mail=_E6F6ED8B-AAC1-4C21-A470-B6DEBF8BE489-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 18:47:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lurk@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1BD12D878 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.636 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.636 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqTvCdYPJ99F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82A8D12D89B for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CMH72390; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 01:42:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 02:42:17 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:42:11 +0800 From: Youjianjie To: Russ Housley Thread-Topic: [Lurk] Fwd: Is this scenario covered by LURK? Thread-Index: AQHRywbiQ9aeu4XdVkOk2+FF/uxxGp/zIppg Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 01:42:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0EAAB1B7-2247-4C52-863E-08F5C173B859@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: <0EAAB1B7-2247-4C52-863E-08F5C173B859@vigilsec.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.78.148] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0C186NKGEML515MBXchina_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.57689B7B.000D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 0bf22f618f372a622ccbb438a621e80a Archived-At: Cc: IETF LURK Subject: [Lurk] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEZ3ZDogICBJcyB0aGlzIHNjZW5hcmlvIGNv?= =?gb2312?b?dmVyZWQgYnkgTFVSSz8=?= X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: 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Hi Russ,

 = ;

In the dia= gram below, the TLS connection terminates at the content server side. The e= dge server (in the context here, e.g. middle-box)  is on the data path, and it needs the key because it needs to do some policy control= on the traffic flow.

 = ;

Thanks,

Jianjie

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Russ Housley
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220=C8=D5 2= 3:17
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie
=B3=AD=CB=CD: IETF LURK
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lurk] Fwd: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Youjianjie:

 

I=A1=AFm sorry, but I do not ge= t it.  In your diagram, the TLS Connection terminates at the same plac= e as the Content Server/Key Server.  So, LURK is not needed for the Ke= y Server to perform operation on behalf of the Content Server, and the Edge Servers do not need key operations because they do no= t terminate the TLS Connection.

 

Russ

 

 

Begin forwarded message:



From: Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>

Subject: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by= LURK?

Date: June 16, 2016 at 10:42:29 PM EDT

To: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (= Nokia - GB)" <thomas.fo= ssati@nokia.com>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>=

 

Hi Daniel, Thomas,<= /o:p>

 =

Here=A1= =AFs a diagram illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please also see my comme= nts inline below:

 =

Thanks,

Jianjie

> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----

> =B7= =A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com]=

> =B7= =A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> =CA= =D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> =D6= =F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> 

> Hi Jianjie,

> 

> Thank you for bring= ing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at

> providing an interf= ace between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context of

> TLS. If I am correc= t, the use case you provide introduces an additional element

> designated as a Key= Manager.  From the description it is not clear to me what<= /span>

> role the Key Manage= r has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> Server.<= /span>

 =

The reason why we introd= uce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in some cases. It's be= tter not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different admin= istrative domain.

 =

> Could you specify w= hat role the Key Manager has as well as interactions

> between:=

>    -=   the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key information needs to= be interacted between them.

 =

>    -= the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key information needs to= be interacted between them.

 =

> In addition, it mig= ht be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the use

> cases of the draft = do not address your use case. Could you please point what is

> missing ?

 =

Is the content owner als= o expected to deliver content traffic in the current use case doc?

 =

> BR,

> Daniel

> 

> 

> -----Original Messa= ge-----

> From: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (Nokia - GB)

> Sent: Thursday, Jun= e 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> To: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [Lurk]= Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> 

> Hi Jianjie,

> 

> On 16/06/2016 04:31= , "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <lurk-bounces@ietf.org

> >Hi

> >

> >I've a question= about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> >scenario is cov= ered by the LURK.

> >

> >In this scenari= o, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in

> >different admin= istrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> >deliver the con= tent. The content provider participates the delivery of

> >a content, prov= iding necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.

> >

> >For example, th= e edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network.

> >There may be mu= ltiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> >manager in the = operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> >the key manager= needs to interact with the key server located in the

> >content owner d= omain, in order to do traffic management since the

> >packets are enc= rypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> >operator's=

> >network) and ke= y server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= /p>

> >this use case i= n the scope of LURK?

> 

> Could you spend a f= ew more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> envisaging between = the key manager and the key server?

> 

> Cheers, t

> 

> ___________________= ____________________________

> Lurk mailing list

_______________________= ________________________
Lurk mailing list
Lurk@ietf.org=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk

 

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Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

One way= is the middle-box submits a chunk of encrypted bytes to the Key Manager an= d gets the clear-text back. The other way is the middle-box gets the key in= formation from the Key Manager. I think both are possible.

&n= bsp;

I=A1=AF= m wondering if this use case could be merged into the existing use case doc= ument? If the use case is acceptable, we=A1=AFll describe the interface req= uirements for it.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB) [mailto:thomas= .fossati@nokia.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220=C8=D5 17:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf= .org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Thanks Ji= anjie.

&nbs= p;

I was sli= ghtly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the LURK drafts) &q= uot;edge server" has been used with distinct semantics =A1=AA i.e. a H= TTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your picture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firew= all, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.

 

IIUC, wha= t you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chunk of encrypte= d bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort of DPI by proxy= if you like) while at the same time hiding topological details about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).<= o:p>

&nbs= p;

While I t= hink this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling this use case = in to the picture at this point in time would derail the working group focu= s in endless political discussions.

&nbs= p;

However, = we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK must evolve (both= refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as well) and thus i= t needs to be built with an extensible interface from the onset.

&nbs= p;

Cheers, t=

&nbs= p;

PS: It'd = be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that we can have a= more precise idea of what you have in mind?

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

 <= /span>

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 <= /span>

Further= comments are welcome.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219= =C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

I've been= staring at the picture for a while but I still don't understand = whether what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that term= inates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to = talk to the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the fo= rmer, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy = =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise once the LUR= K interfaces are defined.

 

If the la= tter, I don't seem to remember anyone presenting this use case ei= ther at the BoF, on list, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagra= m illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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Hi Jianjie,

Yes, both options are possible but t= he second looks very much like a lawful interception interface to me.

So, unless you are ready to convince= the IETF that an update of RFC 2804 is in order, I guess that option is ac= tually precluded?

Cheers, t

From: Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 03:56 To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - = GB)" <thomas.fossati@no= kia.com>, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

One way= is the middle-box submits a chunk of encrypted bytes to the Key Manager an= d gets the clear-text back. The other way is the middle-box gets the key in= formation from the Key Manager. I think both are possible.

&n= bsp;

I=A1=AF= m wondering if this use case could be merged into the existing use case doc= ument? If the use case is acceptable, we=A1=AFll describe the interface req= uirements for it.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220=C8=D5 17:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Thanks Ji= anjie.

&nbs= p;

I was sli= ghtly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the LURK drafts) &q= uot;edge server" has been used with distinct semantics =A1=AA i.e. a H= TTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your picture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firew= all, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.

 

IIUC, wha= t you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chunk of encrypte= d bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort of DPI by proxy= if you like) while at the same time hiding topological details about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).<= o:p>

&nbs= p;

While I t= hink this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling this use case = in to the picture at this point in time would derail the working group focu= s in endless political discussions.

&nbs= p;

However, = we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK must evolve (both= refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as well) and thus i= t needs to be built with an extensible interface from the onset.

&nbs= p;

Cheers, t=

&nbs= p;

PS: It'd = be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that we can have a= more precise idea of what you have in mind?

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

 <= /span>

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 <= /span>

Further= comments are welcome.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219= =C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

I've been= staring at the picture for a while but I still don't understand = whether what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that term= inates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to = talk to the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the fo= rmer, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy = =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise once the LUR= K interfaces are defined.

 

If the la= tter, I don't seem to remember anyone presenting this use case ei= ther at the BoF, on list, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illu= strating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

I think= the second is different from the lawful interception. In this option, the = edge server (middle-box) does and only does policy control when it is autho= rized and has the key information from the content owner. So, here=A1=AFs an assumption that the content provider= and the content owner should have some agreement for doing this, otherwise= , the key information will not be provided to the middle-box for traffic op= timization for example. That=A1=AFs why we need to define the interface between the key manager and key server.<= /o:p>

&n= bsp;

What do= you think?

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB) [mailto:thomas= .fossati@nokia.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C221=C8=D5 17:19
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf= .org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?
<= /p>

 

Hi Jianji= e,

&nbs= p;

Yes, both options are possible = but the second looks very much like a lawful interception interface to me.<= /span>

 

So, unless you are ready to con= vince the IETF that an update of RFC 2804 is in order, I guess that option = is actually precluded?

 

Cheers, t

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 03:56
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

One way= is the middle-box submits a chunk of encrypted bytes to the Key Manager an= d gets the clear-text back. The other way is the middle-box gets the key in= formation from the Key Manager. I think both are possible. =

 <= /span>

I=A1=AF= m wondering if this use case could be merged into the existing use case doc= ument? If the use case is acceptable, we=A1=AFll describe the interface req= uirements for it.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (N= okia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nok= ia.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220= =C8=D5 17:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=
=

 

Thanks Ji= anjie.

 

I was sli= ghtly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the LURK drafts) &q= uot;edge server" has been used with distinct semantics =A1=AA i.e. a H= TTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your picture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firew= all, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.

 

IIUC, wha= t you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chunk of encrypte= d bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort of DPI by proxy= if you like) while at the same time hiding topological details about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).<= o:p>

 

While I t= hink this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling this use case = in to the picture at this point in time would derail the working group focu= s in endless political discussions.

 

However, = we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK must evolve (both= refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as well) and thus i= t needs to be built with an extensible interface from the onset.

 

Cheers, t=

 

PS: It'd = be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that we can have a= more precise idea of what you have in mind?

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

 <= /span>

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 <= /span>

Further= comments are welcome.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219= =C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

I've been= staring at the picture for a while but I still don't understand = whether what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that term= inates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to = talk to the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the fo= rmer, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy = =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise once the LUR= K interfaces are defined.

 

If the la= tter, I don't seem to remember anyone presenting this use case ei= ther at the BoF, on list, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagra= m illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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HI Jianjie,

I understand the two use cases are completely different, I'm not sure = there'd be any substantial distinction in terms of interfaces though.

Cheers, t

From: Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 10:36 To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - = GB)" <thomas.fossati@no= kia.com>, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

I think= the second is different from the lawful interception. In this option, the = edge server (middle-box) does and only does policy control when it is autho= rized and has the key information from the content owner. So, here=A1=AFs an assumption that the content provider= and the content owner should have some agreement for doing this, otherwise= , the key information will not be provided to the middle-box for traffic op= timization for example. That=A1=AFs why we need to define the interface between the key manager and key server.<= /o:p>

&n= bsp;

What do= you think?

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C221=C8=D5 17:19
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?
<= /p>

 

Hi Jianji= e,

&nbs= p;

Yes, both options are possible = but the second looks very much like a lawful interception interface to me.<= /span>

 

So, unless you are ready to con= vince the IETF that an update of RFC 2804 is in order, I guess that option = is actually precluded?

 

Cheers, t

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 03:56
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

One way= is the middle-box submits a chunk of encrypted bytes to the Key Manager an= d gets the clear-text back. The other way is the middle-box gets the key in= formation from the Key Manager. I think both are possible. =

 <= /span>

I=A1=AF= m wondering if this use case could be merged into the existing use case doc= ument? If the use case is acceptable, we=A1=AFll describe the interface req= uirements for it.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (N= okia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nok= ia.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220= =C8=D5 17:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=
=

 

Thanks Ji= anjie.

 

I was sli= ghtly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the LURK drafts) &q= uot;edge server" has been used with distinct semantics =A1=AA i.e. a H= TTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your picture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firew= all, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.

 

IIUC, wha= t you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chunk of encrypte= d bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort of DPI by proxy= if you like) while at the same time hiding topological details about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).<= o:p>

 

While I t= hink this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling this use case = in to the picture at this point in time would derail the working group focu= s in endless political discussions.

 

However, = we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK must evolve (both= refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as well) and thus i= t needs to be built with an extensible interface from the onset.

 

Cheers, t=

 

PS: It'd = be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that we can have a= more precise idea of what you have in mind?

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

 <= /span>

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 <= /span>

Further= comments are welcome.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219= =C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

I've been= staring at the picture for a while but I still don't understand = whether what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that term= inates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to = talk to the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the fo= rmer, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy = =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise once the LUR= K interfaces are defined.

 

If the la= tter, I don't seem to remember anyone presenting this use case ei= ther at the BoF, on list, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illu= strating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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=?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogILTwuLQ6ICC08Li0OiBbTHVya10gtPC4tDogIElzIHRoaXMgc2Nl?= =?gb2312?Q?nario_covered_by_LURK=3F?= Thread-Index: AQHRy6sQ5gT6UPMvpECjH/TyIbgmo5/0u0tw Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 02:14:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.78.148] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_F6C28B32DA084644BB6C8D0BD65B669DC0C68CNKGEML515MBXchina_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.5769F49A.000F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 4066c9aba92365b5295b0b05eed6cc92 Archived-At: Subject: [Lurk] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogtPC4tDogILTwuLQ6ICC08Li0OiAgtPC4tDog?= =?gb2312?b?IElzIHRoaXMgc2NlbmFyaW8gY292ZXJlZCBieSBMVVJLPw==?= X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org 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Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

We=A1= =AFre thinking in this use case, if middle-box does traffic management, the= three participated parties (i.e. client, server, and middle-box) should al= l be aware of this. Therefore, when the key manager (representing middle-box) asks the key server for key information, the key= manager maybe needs to carry the digital signed data from the client (indi= cating client agreed and aware of this), 5-tuple (indicating which connecti= on is decrypted), and decryption reason etc. These information are not discussed in the current document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cairns-tls-session-key-interface-01 .= We=A1=AFre wondering if these information are reasonable via SKI?

&n= bsp;

Your co= mments are welcome!

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB) [mailto:thomas= .fossati@nokia.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C221=C8=D5 18:53
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf= .org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario = covered by LURK?

 

HI Jianji= e,

&nbs= p;

I underst= and the two use cases are completely different, I'm not sure there'd be any= substantial distinction in terms of interfaces though.

&nbs= p;

Cheers, t=

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 10:36
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

I think= the second is different from the lawful interception. In this option, the = edge server (middle-box) does and only does policy control when it is autho= rized and has the key information from the content owner. So, here=A1=AFs an assumption that the content provider= and the content owner should have some agreement for doing this, otherwise= , the key information will not be provided to the middle-box for traffic op= timization for example. That=A1=AFs why we need to define the interface between the key manager and key server.

 <= /span>

What do= you think?

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (N= okia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nok= ia.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C221= =C8=D5 17:19
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

Yes, both= options are possible but the second looks very much like a lawful intercep= tion interface to me.

 

So, unles= s you are ready to convince the IETF that an update of RFC 2804 is in order= , I guess that option is actually precluded?

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 03:56
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

One way= is the middle-box submits a chunk of encrypted bytes to the Key Manager an= d gets the clear-text back. The other way is the middle-box gets the key in= formation from the Key Manager. I think both are possible. =

 <= /span>

I=A1=AF= m wondering if this use case could be merged into the existing use case doc= ument? If the use case is acceptable, we=A1=AFll describe the interface req= uirements for it.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (N= okia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nok= ia.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220= =C8=D5 17:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=
=

 

Thanks Ji= anjie.

 

I was sli= ghtly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the LURK drafts) &q= uot;edge server" has been used with distinct semantics =A1=AA i.e. a H= TTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your picture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firew= all, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.

 

IIUC, wha= t you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chunk of encrypte= d bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort of DPI by proxy= if you like) while at the same time hiding topological details about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).<= o:p>

 

While I t= hink this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling this use case = in to the picture at this point in time would derail the working group focu= s in endless political discussions.

 

However, = we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK must evolve (both= refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as well) and thus i= t needs to be built with an extensible interface from the onset.

 

Cheers, t=

 

PS: It'd = be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that we can have a= more precise idea of what you have in mind?

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

 <= /span>

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 <= /span>

Further= comments are welcome.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219= =C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

I've been= staring at the picture for a while but I still don't understand = whether what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that term= inates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to = talk to the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the fo= rmer, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy = =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise once the LUR= K interfaces are defined.

 

If the la= tter, I don't seem to remember anyone presenting this use case ei= ther at the BoF, on list, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagra= m illustrating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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X-BeenThere: lurk@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Limited Use of Remote Keys List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:24:51 -0000 --_004_D390086C6A76Ethomasfossatialcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D390086C6A76Ethomasfossatialcatellucentcom_" --_000_D390086C6A76Ethomasfossatialcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSmlhbmppZSwNCg0KWW91IG5lZWQgYSBtZWNoYW5pc20gYnkgd2hpY2ggYSBtaWRkbGUtYm94 IGNhbiBhc2sgdGhlIGVuZHBvaW50cyBhYm91dCB0aGUgY2hhcmFjdGVyaXN0aWNzIG9mIHRoZSBm bG93IHRoYXQgYXJlIHJlbGV2YW50IHRvIHRyYWZmaWMgbWFuYWdlbWVudC4NCg0KVGhpcyBsb29r cyB0byBtZSBsaWtlIHRoZSBwZXJmZWN0IFNQVUQvUExVUyB1c2UgY2FzZTsgSSdkIHJhdGhlciBo YW5kbGUgaXQgdGhlcmUgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gaW4gTFVSSy4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLCB0DQoNCkZyb206 IFlvdWppYW5qaWUgPHlvdWppYW5qaWVAaHVhd2VpLmNvbTxtYWlsdG86eW91amlhbmppZUBodWF3 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Hi Jianjie,

You need a mechanism by which a middle-box can ask the endpoints about= the characteristics of the flow that are relevant to traffic management.

This looks to me like the perfect SPUD/PLUS use case; I'd rather handl= e it there rather than in LURK.

Cheers, t

From: Youjianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, 22 June 2016 03:14=
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - = GB)" <thomas.fossati@no= kia.com>, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered= by LURK?

Hi Thom= as,

&n= bsp;

We=A1= =AFre thinking in this use case, if middle-box does traffic management, the= three participated parties (i.e. client, server, and middle-box) should al= l be aware of this. Therefore, when the key manager (representing middle-box) asks the key server for key information, the key= manager maybe needs to carry the digital signed data from the client (indi= cating client agreed and aware of this), 5-tuple (indicating which connecti= on is decrypted), and decryption reason etc. These information are not discussed in the current document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cairns-tls-session-key-interface-01 .= We=A1=AFre wondering if these information are reasonable via SKI?

&n= bsp;

Your co= mments are welcome!

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C221=C8=D5 18:53
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario = covered by LURK?

 

HI Jianji= e,

&nbs= p;

I underst= and the two use cases are completely different, I'm not sure there'd be any= substantial distinction in terms of interfaces though.

&nbs= p;

Cheers, t=

&nbs= p;

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 10:36
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

&nbs= p;

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

I think= the second is different from the lawful interception. In this option, the = edge server (middle-box) does and only does policy control when it is autho= rized and has the key information from the content owner. So, here=A1=AFs an assumption that the content provider= and the content owner should have some agreement for doing this, otherwise= , the key information will not be provided to the middle-box for traffic op= timization for example. That=A1=AFs why we need to define the interface between the key manager and key server.

 <= /span>

What do= you think?

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (N= okia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nok= ia.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C221= =C8=D5 17:19
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

Yes, both= options are possible but the second looks very much like a lawful intercep= tion interface to me.

 

So, unles= s you are ready to convince the IETF that an update of RFC 2804 is in order= , I guess that option is actually precluded?

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 03:56
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

One way= is the middle-box submits a chunk of encrypted bytes to the Key Manager an= d gets the clear-text back. The other way is the middle-box gets the key in= formation from the Key Manager. I think both are possible. =

 <= /span>

I=A1=AF= m wondering if this use case could be merged into the existing use case doc= ument? If the use case is acceptable, we=A1=AFll describe the interface req= uirements for it.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Fossati, Thomas (N= okia - GB) [mailto:thomas.fossati@nok= ia.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C220= =C8=D5 17:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); Daniel Migault; lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=
=

 

Thanks Ji= anjie.

 

I was sli= ghtly confused because in the discussion so far (and in the LURK drafts) &q= uot;edge server" has been used with distinct semantics =A1=AA i.e. a H= TTP edge cache that terminates TLS.  Instead, in your picture it's used to mean "traffic management middle-box": firew= all, IDS, anti-spam/malware, load balancer, whatever.

 

IIUC, wha= t you want to achieve is that these middle-boxes submit a chunk of encrypte= d bytes to the Key Server and get the clear-text back (sort of DPI by proxy= if you like) while at the same time hiding topological details about the Gi-LAN (though this seems to be ancillary).<= o:p>

 

While I t= hink this is an interesting idea, I'm concerned that pulling this use case = in to the picture at this point in time would derail the working group focu= s in endless political discussions.

 

However, = we should keep in the back of our mind the fact that LURK must evolve (both= refining existing use cases and incorporating new ones as well) and thus i= t needs to be built with an extensible interface from the onset.

 

Cheers, t=

 

PS: It'd = be nice if you took some time to draft the interfaces so that we can have a= more precise idea of what you have in mind?

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, 20 June 2016 07:26
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)" <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Daniel Migault &= lt;daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Thom= as,

 <= /span>

It is t= he latter. In this figure, the edge server (e.g. middle-box) can manage the= encrypted flows if it is trusted and authorized to have the key from Key s= erver via Key manager.

 <= /span>

We intr= oduce a Key manager because there may be many edge servers in the network. = It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the content owner= if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 <= /span>

Further= comments are welcome.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

Jianjie=

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C219= =C8=D5 1:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Youjianjie; Daniel Migault; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB); lurk@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lurk] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Is this scenario covered by LURK?=

 

Hi Jianji= e,

 

I've been= staring at the picture for a while but I still don't understand = whether what you call "Edge Server" is actually a cache that term= inates the TLS connection on behalf of the content owner, or some other middle-box that needs to do traffic management and wants to = talk to the Key Server to DPI the encrypted flows.

 

If the fo= rmer, your "Key Manager" is really just a LURK proxy = =A1=AA I don't think there is anything new to standardise once the LUR= K interfaces are defined.

 

If the la= tter, I don't seem to remember anyone presenting this use case ei= ther at the BoF, on list, or in the interim meeting.

 

Cheers, t=

 

From: Youj= ianjie <youjianjie@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, 17 June 2016 03:42
To: Daniel Migault <
daniel.migault@ericsson.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB)&q= uot; <thomas.fossati@nokia.c= om>, "lurk@ietf.org" <lurk@ietf.org>
Subject:
=B4=F0=B8=B4: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

 

Hi Dan= iel, Thomas,

 =

Here=A1=AFs a diagram illu= strating the scenario I want to mean.

 =

 =

Please= also see my comments inline below:

 =

Thanks= ,

Jianji= e

> -= ----=D3=CA=BC= =FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----=

> <= /span>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.c= om]

> <= /span>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA6=D4=C216=C8=D5 21:27

> <= /span>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB: Fossati, Thomas (Nok= ia - GB); Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org

> <= /span>=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lurk] Is this scenario= covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> T= hank you for bringing a potential new use case. Currently LURK aims at=

> p= roviding an interface between Edge Servers and the Key Server in a context = of

> T= LS. If I am correct, the use case you provide introduces an additional elem= ent

> d= esignated as a Key Manager.  From the description it is not clear to m= e what

> r= ole the Key Manager has, and its relation with the Edge Servers and the Key=

> S= erver.

 =

The re= ason why we introduce a Key manager is that there're many edge servers in s= ome cases. It's better not to expose the topology of edge servers to the co= ntent owner if the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in different administrative domain.

 =

> C= ould you specify what role the Key Manager has as well as interactions=

> b= etween:

> &= nbsp;  -  the Key Manger and Key Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> &= nbsp;  - the Key Manager and the Edge Server

 =

Key in= formation needs to be interacted between them.

 =

> I= n addition, it might be also helpful to provide feed back why you think the= use

> c= ases of the draft do not address your use case. Could you please point what= is

> m= issing ?

 =

Is the= content owner also expected to deliver content traffic in the current use = case doc?

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-lurk-tls-use-cases-01<= /p>

 =

> B= R,

> D= aniel

> <= o:p>

> <= o:p>

> -= ----Original Message-----

> F= rom: Lurk [mailto:lurk-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Fossati, Thomas

> (= Nokia - GB)

> S= ent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:40 AM

> T= o: Youjianjie; lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> S= ubject: Re: [Lurk] Is this scenario covered by LURK?

> <= o:p>

> H= i Jianjie,

> <= o:p>

> O= n 16/06/2016 04:31, "Lurk on behalf of Youjianjie" <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">lurk-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>

> on behalf of = youjianjie@huawei.com> wrote:

> &= gt;Hi

> &= gt;

> &= gt;I've a question about the scenario. I'm not sure if the following

> &= gt;scenario is covered by the LURK.

> &= gt;

> &= gt;In this scenario, the Content Provider and the Content Owner are in=

> &= gt;different administrative domain. Content owner is also responsible to

> &= gt;deliver the content. The content provider participates the delivery of

> &= gt;a content, providing necessary traffic management, such as FW, IPS.=

> &= gt;

> &= gt;For example, the edge server can be middle-box in the operator's network= .

> &= gt;There may be multiple middle-boxes, which can be managed by a key

> &= gt;manager in the operator's network. In order to do traffic management,

> &= gt;the key manager needs to interact with the key server located in the

> &= gt;content owner domain, in order to do traffic management since the

> &= gt;packets are encrypted. Here, the interaction between key manager (e.g.

> &= gt;operator's

> &= gt;network) and key server (in content owner) needs to be standardized? Is<= o:p>

> &= gt;this use case in the scope of LURK?

> <= o:p>

> C= ould you spend a few more lines on the kind of interaction that you are

> e= nvisaging between the key manager and the key server?

> <= o:p>

> C= heers, t

> <= o:p>

> _= ______________________________________________

> L= urk mailing list

> <= a href=3D"mailto:Lurk@ietf.org"> Lurk@ietf.org<= /a>

> <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk"> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/lurk

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