From nobody Wed Dec 1 03:56:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44C13A074B for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 03:56:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xufbpx54jSPa for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 03:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9734D3A0658 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 03:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B1BuKfJ030512 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:56:20 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F7F3206A41 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:56:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C2D206A14 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:56:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B1BuKFR021067 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:56:20 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------NpRZvtc8yr9lcTKwrCJA1b3R" Message-ID: <60e58330-ffe2-af16-170c-1be1648f112e@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:56:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: fr From: Alexandre Petrescu To: "manycouches@ietf.org" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Hybrid meeting issues - IETF 113 (March 2022) venue update X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 11:56:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------NpRZvtc8yr9lcTKwrCJA1b3R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > [Manycouches] Hybrid meeting issues - IETF 113 (March 2022) > venue update > > Toerless Eckert Tue, 30 November 2021 16:17 UTCShow > header > > My fundamental problem with manycouches and the challenges ahead for us is that > tooling/processes for hybrid meetings was explicitly not included into the charter > of shmoo, but IMHO that is exctly the most important thing we could and should > discuss (and which is why i wanted those aspects to also be in shmoo charter): > > As long as we have no in-person part in our meetings, i think we're doing quite fine > with how we've set up to operate now. When we do start hybrid, IMHO all bets are > off. Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should expect > it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona. There is a drawback of recent online WG meetings: there is no sense of a physical room grouping all together. In an in-person meeting the sense of a physical room adds to the attention, adds to the importance of the event, helps in concentrating. We might replicate that sense of a physical room by renting a large room in which only the Chair(s) or only one of the presenter is present.  And video-stream that room to all participants, them being at home. A simple photo of a large room might not suffice, because there is no sense of liveliness in a photo. > And i have not even seen > an attempt at agreeing on a priority list of what we need to fix up from pre-corona > times to better support more hybrid for its core aspects. We can start build such a list. Also, there is an ongoing draft about online meetings draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt > I did mention in before, that i think WG/RG in-room logistics with microphone line has > been the most irritating with remote participants, as well as no-microphone > call-ins from the in-room participants. I did mention that other organizations > have set ups for 'each-in-room-paticipant-uses-own-microphone'. I think with > our technologies todays this would be easily possible to at least experiment with > through fixups to meetecho, and every in-person participant running her/his own > notebook. - Just as a proposal to discuss. I do not understand the proposal. Do you mean that persons in the real physical room would rather use their mic from their laptop rather than the mic at the queue? There would be no mic stand in the physical room?  (and no physical queue) Alex > > Cheers > Toerless > --------------NpRZvtc8yr9lcTKwrCJA1b3R Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

[Manycouches] Hybrid meeting issues - IETF 113 (March 2022) venue update

Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Tue, 30 November 2021 16:17 UTCShow header

My fundamental problem with manycouches and the challenges ahead for us is that
tooling/processes for hybrid meetings was explicitly not included into the charter
of shmoo, but IMHO that is exctly the most important thing we could and should
discuss (and which is why i wanted those aspects to also be in shmoo charter):

As long as we have no in-person part in our meetings, i think we're doing quite fine
with how we've set up to operate now. When we do start hybrid, IMHO all bets are
off. Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should expect
it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona.

There is a drawback of recent online WG meetings: there is no sense of a physical room grouping all together.

In an in-person meeting the sense of a physical room adds to the attention, adds to the importance of the event, helps in concentrating.

We might replicate that sense of a physical room by renting a large room in which only the Chair(s) or only one of the presenter is present.  And video-stream that room to all participants, them being at home.

A simple photo of a large room might not suffice, because there is no sense of liveliness in a photo.

 And i have not even seen
an attempt at agreeing on a priority list of what we need to fix up from pre-corona
times to better support more hybrid for its core aspects.

We can start build such a list.

Also, there is an ongoing draft about online meetings draft-kuehlewind-shmoo-online-meeting-03.txt

I did mention in before, that i think WG/RG in-room logistics with microphone line has
been the most irritating with remote participants, as well as no-microphone
call-ins from the in-room participants. I did mention that other organizations
have set ups for 'each-in-room-paticipant-uses-own-microphone'. I think with
our technologies todays this would be easily possible to at least experiment with
through fixups to meetecho, and every in-person participant running her/his own
notebook. - Just as a proposal to discuss.

I do not understand the proposal.

Do you mean that persons in the real physical room would rather use their mic from their laptop rather than the mic at the queue?

There would be no mic stand in the physical room?  (and no physical queue)

Alex



Cheers
    Toerless


--------------NpRZvtc8yr9lcTKwrCJA1b3R-- From nobody Wed Dec 1 08:34:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F089E3A0ADB for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:34:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RDZF7MzUmoj6 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F38E93A0AAC for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB16B38997 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id pfhWwDNMuisj for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB8738991 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:37:30 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1638376650; bh=NgVvs3SedTEzZbcxjYZxYQJ/EfDWGk+YQQEuuibj9Ww=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=4/tA31WfBzcXqmEmbcpNesigEpah8L4dsHa+WiTK8gbNBZoGI7O9GTHTWyCSpnz3M yzSxh6RS6MPM0nF1wyt2pZsMMGzBjsx263UkDEP4UDTvtRqEVd0ZbYe+8QTyPARh4j d3Cl1E2sPjLuCtIzeoNqYWF/6JHfXQ2TvdqV30shQNxY1mpDYB/FAxNGSz/ikzIjwO tdjQJzfjngbP5B0RfpPWKbH0612Za5A879BoTeWvU9Jh6URhJFYsye/ec5r2bQ2L6n BxPDoYcsNsVCMSfqESe/mL3ZQp6d1Bt3RXu6Npi0XbWJfA9Zmo+b8nyvdMYFmv35tw 9osw27Zj36oYw== Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1001A21 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:18:55 -0500 (EST) To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7CB1BB29D5C99EB3003E4CF5@PSB> <6A1AB2044CCCC1362F57149A@PSB> From: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <1de5d59e-e778-167c-d4ff-bb6cc4ee1466@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:18:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:34:38 -0000 On 2021-11-30 11:17 a.m., Toerless Eckert wrote: > As long as we have no in-person part in our meetings, i think we're doing quite fine > with how we've set up to operate now. When we do start hybrid, IMHO all bets are > off. Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should expect > it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona. And i have not even seen > an attempt at agreeing on a priority list of what we need to fix up from pre-corona > times to better support more hybrid for its core aspects. > > I did mention in before, that i think WG/RG in-room logistics with microphone line has > been the most irritating with remote participants, as well as no-microphone > call-ins from the in-room participants. I did mention that other organizations > have set ups for 'each-in-room-paticipant-uses-own-microphone'. I think with > our technologies todays this would be easily possible to at least experiment with > through fixups to meetecho, and every in-person participant running her/his own > notebook. - Just as a proposal to discuss. I also want to talk about this issue. From nobody Wed Dec 1 17:05:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16473A0120 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:05:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ischool-berkeley-edu.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XdnS3fHbEz7Q for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E24C3A0DC7 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id j11so15453892pgs.2 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 17:05:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ischool-berkeley-edu.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=C9azwvR9AiYV8sh5QKHWMI+nSk50toSQpv0fAdKc1L8=; b=n0dJGVhUFu7bW14/BbwmPv4X9kPqfhIwJg5EI5FAojuA6nx28w+QmYdxdFuMsMGLXo JRTT4a9YtlrjkDul3WJy8+EnztaytzxWYlJ5GxVERus6HA+cCOqFnRAokP+OsPiJVUBG 8IJtAYzb9E7h0hgpz40aC/CdhYlBHODyIm42Gmyk3IxL3E7NunpczYUTj1y8sXVdBHCM ojwnYutATM1AZ4X065rxqU/Q3CO6k9/uOSWm61JwjVyG8MSZO5Jbiq8bCcXFfrvzqjuz Hoi4pVw5Ecov8Cj718qaeq/jR6aE4kbFaiMLq3RyNsoXT5j5IcVn6RejMEp1J7ilS7WG diaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=C9azwvR9AiYV8sh5QKHWMI+nSk50toSQpv0fAdKc1L8=; b=et+AY2sNOQOXc/S0wqwCYdo8d/wYKq1wsl+msBvYU0QH6EJ3DTiUbAywO99kSkDT0E Ovn1e31PjKJfmO4fzPEbk2Qhnx6d+mZ48urr13dvWwx8OwR1d6upHOWD0xtVDK1AJMCb H2VmusyKggSXbuef7KTB6HfVaKcZSry8cPyKgSDIdZ/SdtbF+z39HDDWa6ewsCcUXjQT jFU/7elFbpVDNkR0MSS/tgaorQrFS9R92wH8Y/Yj69bLH408zavx8MtdI9/taFUOAhx8 3cJLD+R7P1imU9nB0nU3gF2GLyHZUXtXxOWYvQCDDdxRcIHsAwmDw9i+uLHdlOOSd81q qPjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uWHpIq1go7AzgYRGg67gf1F/jAAx0G1e7rKpzs1yxwF4/ZLQP riLVBAhpE5rm+eMN0KkxWqCLniL7zF52wMNyS/dT/TvBgPaoTQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVT6yCZ1i2mtS/sqx3laXwYGkA1iqzQ6VIf4M88MRAc0aONyaVsmyihvJG4XkmA8IEXMUPJQOFeeK96ciEUG0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1905:b0:4a8:2f86:3f18 with SMTP id y5-20020a056a00190500b004a82f863f18mr9867180pfi.52.1638407117920; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 17:05:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nick Doty Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 20:05:06 -0500 Message-ID: To: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000044440a05d21f62a5" Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] comparing virtual/in-person meeting attendance X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 01:05:32 -0000 --00000000000044440a05d21f62a5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044440805d21f62a3" --00000000000044440805d21f62a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the 112 shmoo meeting, I offered to put together updated graphs of relative attendance at the recent virtual IETF meetings to help with documents on running virtual meetings. As this week is an IAB workshop/hackathon on analyzing IETF data [0], it seemed a good time to re-run that analysis. Attached is one such graph (or on github [1]), with attendance grouped by region, for the last 9 IETF meetings (Prague, Montr=C3=A9al, Singapore and = six virtual meetings). Alissa showed a similar version of this graph we put together for 3 virtual vs 3 in-person at the IETF 110 plenary. Evidence continues to suggest the same basic conclusions: * attendance has modestly increased in virtual meetings; * swings in proportion of attendance based on the region of the meeting are greatly decreased; * North American (especially) and European (to some extent) attendance remain disproportionately large; and * there might be a significant increase in attendance of African and South American participants to virtual meetings. This Jupyter notebook shows the calculations, and some other graphs (attendance percentage rather than in absolute numbers; stacked bar charts by country; etc.): https://github.com/npdoty/bigbang/blob/attendance-202112/examples/attendanc= e/IETF%20Attendance.ipynb Perhaps we could make this part of a standing dashboard-style display for IETF. Or maybe there is already an existing IETF tool for that and I haven't kept up (another lesson from this week's workshop). Hope this helps, Nick P.S. Yay for the Datatracker and the ietfdata Python library! [0] https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/aid/ [1] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/npdoty/bigbang/attendance-202112/examples= /attendance/graphs/attendance-by-region.png --00000000000044440805d21f62a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the 112 shmoo meeting, I offered to put together update= d graphs of relative attendance at the recent virtual=C2=A0IETF meetings to= =C2=A0help with documents on running virtual meetings. As this week is an I= AB workshop/hackathon on analyzing IETF data [0], it seemed a good time to = re-run that analysis.

Attached is one such graph (or on = github [1]), with attendance grouped by region, for the last 9 IETF meeting= s (Prague, Montr=C3=A9al, Singapore and six virtual meetings).
Alissa showed a similar version of this graph we put together = for 3 virtual vs 3 in-person at the IETF 110 plenary. Evidence continues to= suggest the same basic conclusions:=C2=A0
* attendance has modes= tly increased in virtual meetings;=C2=A0
* swings in proportion o= f attendance based on the region of the meeting are greatly decreased;=C2= =A0
* North American (especially) and European (to some extent) a= ttendance remain disproportionately large; and=C2=A0
* there migh= t be a significant increase in attendance of African and South American par= ticipants to virtual meetings.

This Jupyter notebo= ok shows the calculations, and some other graphs (attendance percentage rat= her than in absolute numbers; stacked bar charts by country; etc.):=C2=A0


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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tB8ok0S45lRj for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8481E3A0033 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C44436DD29; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:08:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e0SBnTWwprqN; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7450F436DD16; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:08:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0120D9B2-4CA8-41A7-9444-791D1E614C20" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:08:51 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: manycouches@ietf.org To: Nick Doty References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] comparing virtual/in-person meeting attendance X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 01:09:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0120D9B2-4CA8-41A7-9444-791D1E614C20 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Nick! =20 Existing dashboard is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/meeting/continent/ = Jay > On 2/12/2021, at 2:05 PM, Nick Doty = wrote: >=20 > At the 112 shmoo meeting, I offered to put together updated graphs of = relative attendance at the recent virtual IETF meetings to help with = documents on running virtual meetings. As this week is an IAB = workshop/hackathon on analyzing IETF data [0], it seemed a good time to = re-run that analysis. >=20 > Attached is one such graph (or on github [1]), with attendance grouped = by region, for the last 9 IETF meetings (Prague, Montr=C3=A9al, = Singapore and six virtual meetings). >=20 > Alissa showed a similar version of this graph we put together for 3 = virtual vs 3 in-person at the IETF 110 plenary. Evidence continues to = suggest the same basic conclusions:=20 > * attendance has modestly increased in virtual meetings;=20 > * swings in proportion of attendance based on the region of the = meeting are greatly decreased;=20 > * North American (especially) and European (to some extent) attendance = remain disproportionately large; and=20 > * there might be a significant increase in attendance of African and = South American participants to virtual meetings. >=20 > This Jupyter notebook shows the calculations, and some other graphs = (attendance percentage rather than in absolute numbers; stacked bar = charts by country; etc.):=20 > = https://github.com/npdoty/bigbang/blob/attendance-202112/examples/attendan= ce/IETF%20Attendance.ipynb = >=20 > Perhaps we could make this part of a standing dashboard-style display = for IETF. Or maybe there is already an existing IETF tool for that and I = haven't kept up (another lesson from this week's workshop). >=20 > Hope this helps, > Nick >=20 > P.S. Yay for the Datatracker and the ietfdata Python library! >=20 > [0] https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/aid/ = > [1] = https://raw.githubusercontent.com/npdoty/bigbang/attendance-202112/example= s/attendance/graphs/attendance-by-region.png = __= _____________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_0120D9B2-4CA8-41A7-9444-791D1E614C20 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Nick!  

Existing dashboard is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/meeting/continent/

Jay
On = 2/12/2021, at 2:05 PM, Nick Doty <npdoty@ischool.berkeley.edu> wrote:

At the 112 shmoo meeting, I offered to put together updated = graphs of relative attendance at the recent virtual IETF meetings = to help with documents on running virtual meetings. As this week is = an IAB workshop/hackathon on analyzing IETF data [0], it seemed a good = time to re-run that analysis.

Attached is one such graph (or on github [1]), with = attendance grouped by region, for the last 9 IETF meetings (Prague, = Montr=C3=A9al, Singapore and six virtual meetings).

Alissa showed a similar = version of this graph we put together for 3 virtual vs 3 in-person at = the IETF 110 plenary. Evidence continues to suggest the same basic = conclusions: 
* attendance has modestly = increased in virtual meetings; 
* swings in = proportion of attendance based on the region of the meeting are greatly = decreased; 
* North American (especially) and = European (to some extent) attendance remain disproportionately large; = and 
* there might be a significant increase = in attendance of African and South American participants to virtual = meetings.

This = Jupyter notebook shows the calculations, and some other graphs = (attendance percentage rather than in absolute numbers; stacked bar = charts by country; etc.): 

Perhaps we could make = this part of a standing dashboard-style display for IETF. Or maybe there = is already an existing IETF tool for that and I haven't kept up (another = lesson from this week's workshop).

Hope this helps,
Nick

P.S. Yay for the Datatracker and the ietfdata Python = library!

<attendance-by-region.png>____________= ___________________________________
Manycouches mailing = list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

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manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2233A07D0 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:30:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.753 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.753 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bnwm0zYTiDD1 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpcmd12131.aruba.it (smtpcmd12131.aruba.it [62.149.156.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CF53A0115 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.234] ([2.232.93.8]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id so2Em0kjaYYTXso2Em5UBc; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 16:30:11 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1638459012; bh=UKL9pkcOcX8aRUuoZ7i1RrnoCYFVnz4aRgB+hKNpcWM=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BRn4dl5VGNGcC4oLWYA9FrICZ3y5/unWC4suFE6Izdnv3HkL5XKqKuE3OT2ZjdZtk OeTgAZ9IkKxy8AE653n1yWrMxINqn57vgOQk6V/frgBEJgJE1+ZeQrs9YL7FXpAzL8 ht0eQzt5DKsMYJJnHCVsxQMDmsR2H+3zz76WyboLIMrzRK+DTWyiXuia8tjpWfnw0n ToslYgWPmu6B0mSbAvWntLShrnvwl5FFCd/qkl7bCYymT3bQ9IoTIic6Vrv1PV65QC oOcNpMBN2tACXqAakoLwOyNUrlVRxNvJ9CxshqqQY2xKn2yChEwqeqiif1KY7iJqbm THDtEI04RZRJQ== To: Michael Richardson , manycouches@ietf.org, tte@cs.fau.de References: <7CB1BB29D5C99EB3003E4CF5@PSB> <6A1AB2044CCCC1362F57149A@PSB> <1de5d59e-e778-167c-d4ff-bb6cc4ee1466@sandelman.ca> From: Alessandro Amirante Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 16:30:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1de5d59e-e778-167c-d4ff-bb6cc4ee1466@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfM1slNSlZUoWgzrsWdMIv30taX+oPWQKNp38gER4oP9nu2bbpEB8de5AVvXx0Xpeoi/oIa5iNF8ZYW22WBiQne1uKq239WVQ/ZbzOMFU9bMhDD603hIy zRqgyhwQb7TZhi1UH/0IV7D+4qLLll9NA2E81Wpc5fw1ddBD+cODmAFOZg0DSvbP/9TqJIzMiTwGuzB+2UhokYAmCkIr5cA4jzMjpFNZyUgrO0JDAhX4WBeH Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 15:30:22 -0000 Il 01/12/21 17:18, Michael Richardson ha scritto: > On 2021-11-30 11:17 a.m., Toerless Eckert wrote: >> As long as we have no in-person part in our meetings, i think we're >> doing quite fine >> with how we've set up to operate now. When we do start hybrid, IMHO >> all bets are >> off. Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we >> should expect >> it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona. And i have not >> even seen >> an attempt at agreeing on a priority list of what we need to fix up >> from pre-corona >> times to better support more hybrid for its core aspects. >> >> I did mention in before, that i think WG/RG in-room logistics with >> microphone line has >> been the most irritating with remote participants, as well as >> no-microphone >> call-ins from the in-room participants. I did mention that other >> organizations >> have set ups for 'each-in-room-paticipant-uses-own-microphone'. I >> think with >> our technologies todays this would be easily possible to at least >> experiment with >> through fixups to meetecho, and every in-person participant running >> her/his own >> notebook. - Just as a proposal to discuss. > > I also want to talk about this issue. My personal opinion is that if you require every in-person participant to use their own notebook to participate, you're not having a hybrid meeting but a full-virtual meeting with a bunch of participants who happen to be in the same room. Alessandro > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- Alessandro Amirante, Ph.D. Meetecho S.r.l. www.meetecho.com From nobody Thu Dec 2 14:21:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4013A080A for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:21:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4YNSaXbMpDfm for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09BE83A0809 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E05F854804B; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 23:21:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id D06804E9F67; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 23:21:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 23:21:20 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Alessandro Amirante Cc: Michael Richardson , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <7CB1BB29D5C99EB3003E4CF5@PSB> <6A1AB2044CCCC1362F57149A@PSB> <1de5d59e-e778-167c-d4ff-bb6cc4ee1466@sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 22:21:31 -0000 On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 04:30:10PM +0100, Alessandro Amirante wrote: > My personal opinion is that if you require every in-person participant to > use their own notebook to participate, you're not having a hybrid meeting > but a full-virtual meeting with a bunch of participants who happen to be in > the same room. Well, i had these type of setups in other SDOs, and i did not found it so divergent from our current setup. FOr tight rooms it is even better because you do not have to squeeze yourself getting up to a microphone, and of course, whoever is taking notes will also see who is talking from meetecho. And all the gotchas, where folks on the microphone and in the vicinity start to talk to each other and even the rest of the room doesn't get it - are eliminated. Btw: This is just one experiment setup i think is important to evalute for us. The other one, for meetings with may < 20 people in the room is to have a round table setup with a good room microphone/speaker in the middle, and one tries to have discussions fully witohut microphone line management. This has worked very well in in-erson interims wih room microhpone/speakers. When discussions get more heated, WG chars may need to do AQM though as well. For this setup too it would IMHO be nice if one could push a button on one's own notebook to indicate that one is talking now. Unless we do get speech recognition in Meetecho ;-) Cheers Toerless From nobody Fri Dec 3 03:37:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD273A0833 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 03:37:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6d-YW1ODqBi3 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 03:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C4463A0831 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 03:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B3BbL0J028245 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:37:21 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 359712049BB for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:37:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE5E200C10 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:37:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B3BbL4t014522 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:37:21 +0100 Message-ID: <06364aab-33cf-ab8f-05f6-41ebedb97164@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:37:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7CB1BB29D5C99EB3003E4CF5@PSB> <6A1AB2044CCCC1362F57149A@PSB> <1de5d59e-e778-167c-d4ff-bb6cc4ee1466@sandelman.ca> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 11:37:29 -0000 Le 02/12/2021 à 23:21, Toerless Eckert a écrit : > On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 04:30:10PM +0100, Alessandro Amirante wrote: >> My personal opinion is that if you require every in-person >> participant to use their own notebook to participate, you're not >> having a hybrid meeting but a full-virtual meeting with a bunch of >> participants who happen to be in the same room. > > Well, i had these type of setups in other SDOs, and i did not found > it so divergent from our current setup. FOr tight rooms Tight rooms? At this time I would imagine a real-world room with seats spaced at 2meter (6ft) from one another. In such a room it _would_ make sense for participants to use their own laptop and mics rather than a single mic line in common. But, what kind of proportions between online and in-person in a hybrid meeting do we look at? 1. 1000 online people and 2 groups each with 10 people in-person 2. 500 online people and 5 groups each with 100 people in-person 3. 100 online people and 10 groups each with 50 people in-person For my part, I think to look more at option 1. Alex it is even better > because you do not have to squeeze yourself getting up to a > microphone, and of course, whoever is taking notes will also see who > is talking from meetecho. And all the gotchas, where folks on the > microphone and in the vicinity start to talk to each other and even > the rest of the room doesn't get it - are eliminated. > > Btw: This is just one experiment setup i think is important to > evalute for us. The other one, for meetings with may < 20 people in > the room is to have a round table setup with a good room > microphone/speaker in the middle, and one tries to have discussions > fully witohut microphone line management. This has worked very well > in in-erson interims wih room microhpone/speakers. When discussions > get more heated, WG chars may need to do AQM though as well. For this > setup too it would IMHO be nice if one could push a button on one's > own notebook to indicate that one is talking now. Unless we do get > speech recognition in Meetecho ;-) > > Cheers Toerless > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Fri Dec 3 11:47:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD12E3A07DD for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:47:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBgs8YmKxDUA for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 018533A0821 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id x7so3135933pjn.0 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 11:47:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=QYgex+oq9o4//VB2B1T+cCO8jABknTy+GFHaMWGpLC0=; b=nG1xyTp7fVVbrYMQq8bVorumkz+9MLOJFRYCE8tld/zDfRwZIdiJAuZVwkxUsmu4eN o8L35UHcH9eMIPs0A0YphgN+mFk4uzVqIuaUal05jDQ3CkBS13yJdwnvipF6nrhwUE3B EM5Wj+4wyQPTDjVL4wBlyiSJZKOUf1dTzoCzThfpMx5JOqne0vxHFNgRYhyOvZgShJMN 7qUX0wpNLRIdXuMHN+Oe2sRIXExACH8pxjK0+Vnyux0RC14JcHrBJJB48r0uhjEAUIFj jFtC1PidvvOd09ohlokEy+qbk/d2qnXULyiy3JKteCjtlg3i7bNf+ADLRF+ShFPie9pu pBUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=QYgex+oq9o4//VB2B1T+cCO8jABknTy+GFHaMWGpLC0=; b=vEsRbno8SPsaCjnuWv8X+PIb5f7t2XoN0xczrrU8IvQ2VR1KUWxh5aR6NSZ3WwlKcU 7hVunedAGio9w0HpNws9BGf6NB5ntom03h6eX6i/4b4dlFSWCSDCiKTzXT1Au/SwpYFt 6yn3nl7p5KH00ElZNEw6IgQeE1c+l8h/W0TJEZ2wHS9pWO5N10JlBlib2PxWCwVYloDp cgGINkxOlPPM3cCbu4yS/acDDBhnFY18oBWH9KT8KqmOA8PKQQTZAwcbh8HUP7/hzlJ8 SjZhdZQryuShKO5fqjvx9JtdviIKQSdHVJNr71eOKwKVHEc2drTRjRT5WlK3djVXSpwU 9Vcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5317A3HM4f/R2admpv3IpZLbLKidMIacy9LArFGXHEdWgzAga2MA RgJjxSic9+bNlzJeOF7JT+KUWc+7WKnmrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxv9y7L1SSPiXiWy3xyTZvZXo2FN9EiS6oCdvH+dL6KIWedFf4qfYahOgFrX6Pz3ITb2EnVcg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d2cf:b0:141:b347:df9d with SMTP id n15-20020a170902d2cf00b00141b347df9dmr24696144plc.37.1638560819737; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 11:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip70-185-177-201.sb.sd.cox.net. [70.185.177.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c2sm3956792pfl.200.2021.12.03.11.46.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Dec 2021 11:46:59 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:46:58 -0800 Cc: Michael Richardson , manycouches@ietf.org, tte@cs.fau.de Message-Id: References: To: Alessandro Amirante X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 19:47:21 -0000 Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:30 AM, Alessandro Amirante wrote:= >=20 >>> Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should e= xpect >>> it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona. I=E2=80=99m not sure what it means to be more or less =E2=80=9Chybrid=E2=80=9D= . I think it=E2=80=99s fair to report V6ops experience before the current er= a; we had a few remote participants via MeetEcho, but not many. I interpret y= our concern to be that we would be mostly-remote, with a few local. Am I cor= rect? In my opinion, there would be some sort of curve; each meeting would have so= me of each, but trying to predict densities is a fool=E2=80=99s errand.= From nobody Fri Dec 3 12:25:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21E03A08BC for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:25:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H5-vLh5deiPt for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14F133A08B8 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse185.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.185] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtF7r-0009es-JP for manycouches@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 21:25:48 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4J5PTk1sFLzDHb for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.15] (helo=xmail05.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtF7q-0008IU-4N for manycouches@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 12:25:46 -0800 Received: (qmail 9956 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2021 20:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.129]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail05.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 3 Dec 2021 20:25:38 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------KzTL0apKxdyLewvIYV63e3DI" Message-ID: <92340ed0-f6ce-88da-4a96-fd39de6d542e@huitema.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:25:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Fred Baker , Alessandro Amirante Cc: Michael Richardson , tte@cs.fau.de, manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.185 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.10) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT8wWKKFZkYRzTBUq8xevkSwPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5yV6WRoDJcxv6c4MIK5sWwIfFx4ECBbLS8uxFBzI3AKH1I6 HzkD0+BLtr4z3OqNNwvrtcjzPLB8l26cZcetnKkDSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVNeJTN7DFlYFLtIwbcoJsupotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WX1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dj1kvSgT4G6Wgcnfwvu7dYrK v4w6/2/9dGBShJgO7PjIb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlh8AwY4xJ+vN+e8qbOg1hmG3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlalgCb nhsmmNI18/l1EYkRH944kDOwOD9IugUEcj/XMnxRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Zubq9cbdQFbpB1L9u Q5Rjx/VrY0eteCQ5lDckfL/NDU+N9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 20:25:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------KzTL0apKxdyLewvIYV63e3DI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 12/3/2021 11:46 AM, Fred Baker wrote: >> On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:30 AM, Alessandro Amirante wrote: >> >>>> Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should expect >>>> it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona. > I’m not sure what it means to be more or less “hybrid”. I think it’s fair to report V6ops experience before the current era; we had a few remote participants via MeetEcho, but not many. I interpret your concern to be that we would be mostly-remote, with a few local. Am I correct? > > In my opinion, there would be some sort of curve; each meeting would have some of each, but trying to predict densities is a fool’s errand. Meetecho is specifically designed to handle hybrid meetings, which should be an advantage over general purpose communication tools like Webex, Skype or Zoom. It may well be that some features of Meetecho will have to evolve. For example, having a bunch of folks tightly grouped in a mike line might not be the best idea during a pandemic, it might be better to have people ask questions from wherever they are sitting. That could be through a laptop, or maybe a portable mike and a point and zoom camera pointing at the current speaker. Or something else. We may want to hear opinions of the Meetecho team about that. -- Christian Huitema --------------KzTL0apKxdyLewvIYV63e3DI Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 12/3/2021 11:46 AM, Fred Baker wrote:

On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:30 AM, Alessandro Amirante <alex@meetecho.com> wrote:

Does not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should expect
it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona.
I’m not sure what it means to be more or less “hybrid”. I think it’s fair to report V6ops experience before the current era; we had a few remote participants via MeetEcho, but not many. I interpret your concern to be that we would be mostly-remote, with a few local. Am I correct?

In my opinion, there would be some sort of curve; each meeting would have some of each, but trying to predict densities is a fool’s errand.

Meetecho is specifically designed to handle hybrid meetings, which should be an advantage over general purpose communication tools like Webex, Skype or Zoom. It may well be that some features of Meetecho will have to evolve. For example, having a bunch of folks tightly grouped in a mike line might not be the best idea during a pandemic, it might be better to have people ask questions from wherever they are sitting. That could be through a laptop, or maybe a portable mike and a point and zoom camera pointing at the current speaker. Or something else. We may want to hear opinions of the Meetecho team about that.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------KzTL0apKxdyLewvIYV63e3DI-- From nobody Fri Dec 3 13:50:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BBB3A09F2 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 13:50:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zmywqvvnQZi4 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 13:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gro.dd.org (host2.dlawren-3-gw.cust.sover.net [207.136.201.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1AE93A09F1 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 13:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by gro.dd.org (Postfix, from userid 102) id DD3495556A; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:50:07 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:50:07 -0500 From: Dave Lawrence To: manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 21:50:17 -0000 Toerless Eckert wrote: >> not matter IMHO if its 113 or 114, but whenever we start we should e= xpect >> it to be MORE hybrid than it was hybrid before corona. Fred Baker wrote: > I=E2=80=99m not sure what it means to be more or less =E2=80=9Chybrid= =E2=80=9D. Here's what it meant to me, though perhaps not was meant by Toerless: that it's really hard to get a large meeting balanced in participation when a significant portion of the attendees are in the same room together. It's probably something intrinsic to our humanity, our shared wiring as a social species, and as a remote worker the problem was readily evident to me in the before times -- and, I hate to say anything good about the pandemic era, I saw a real improvement when everyone was forced online. Like many of you, I've been a remote worker since before the inception of the video conferencing era. It didn't take a lot of introspection to observe that my participation in person at a meeting was different from my participation on a call when most of the other people were together in person. I naturally interacted less with them, and they less with me. It inhibited some of the normal idea flow between me and other participants. This, of course, changed when everyone was remote. Sure, the overall interaction obviously wasn't the same as being in a room together, but at least we were all on equal footing. To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting design that better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage. It's not just "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho available." I have no ready solutions. From nobody Fri Dec 3 16:16:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D3F3A0C1B for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6LD9UQkxf-oq for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A82763A0C15 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD26238AB9; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 19:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id l0YkYvtMroLC; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 19:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5963A38AB8; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 19:19:44 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1638577184; bh=No98muxnhf6lAB6YX9EuplzrAuPbpqTdLqpbJGomAtA=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=M0QxobbBryn+4N0FewV9ZuDS5c6uRq3ZJ3STJZvCGxQwljeJI3NVhGID9+W/fbxUY 2jKOIQEeNfrw+mgHjYvv4/Cl6GSUaNDQ3LA/mRhC0QIuPVDQ0DB6pPrsz3i/0wCFGR iJPjqSQWXuMAYZyox1yA5vcHEeAp9ttOiWEZj5rwT7ZhhaGaw9qlvwa/eHfyPw3Hlf CpHhsJPBcQrDRjK1Qr8IDe81nq8iw47TOViRVPcuBpi35OWb+kXXkvw9zGnct9AzkV U02ZUjqDM713fv973bYRmSzvCr4Zbnckm+K+tx93B4kDCqznD1CoaqwJ3vMDC3gHJl n1DW8HUuUhe1A== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8347EA; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 19:16:17 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Dave Lawrence , manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 00:16:31 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain What tale said. Dave Lawrence wrote: > Like many of you, I've been a remote worker since before the inception > of the video conferencing era. It didn't take a lot of introspection > to observe that my participation in person at a meeting was different > from my participation on a call when most of the other people were > together in person. I naturally interacted less with them, and they > less with me. It inhibited some of the normal idea flow between me > and other participants. This part is particularly accute. In many "virtual corporation" situations that I've worked in since 2000, my ability to effectively communicate with others often depended upon us meeting in person and drinking beer. (Literally) I have even, travelled thousands of KM to do this (at my cost at times) in order to effect this. The result was usually dramatic changes in subsequent interactions. Prior to 107, most WGs were almost impossible to interact with remotely, despite meetecho. What I am hearing is that we don't want to go back to such pathologies. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmGqs1EACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWUhQf/YFq4gXghoSI8WtIP2geLilOY/kkbEa1rnBW3wXHLNWL9mAOE8Dmeqo07 0SsqfizX2bM4OKso+OIDReD6NX5KpqVoMcqkKXfCGSpnem6xJGu/U+UEHp+uom0d HIzler6ytWZXlUflmJFzoJpI3dWBdwCoSkzFOiKnfaNBuUf+8YdbghZU7bWlX8Bg kmd9YFXDpA8TQFNXSDbOmn8jun8tqAqw7oV1CmtqaofJGgicgiAXKvOt/swuObIf jVZXMC/yEFRYNhzWhnbH0/hG4rRps5Nk8xjIHBm8IGQAQxQF8Z37Js+s4PVX9pih 5zP3mahgm9e0wNwu23wWZP/H78pc6A== =6o3E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 3 17:54:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906B23A0DB7 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:54:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXGYYvuSE77j for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1F883A0D88 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DCDD548019; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 02:54:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 38C034E9F82; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 02:54:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 02:54:32 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Christian Huitema Cc: Fred Baker , Alessandro Amirante , Michael Richardson , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <92340ed0-f6ce-88da-4a96-fd39de6d542e@huitema.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <92340ed0-f6ce-88da-4a96-fd39de6d542e@huitema.net> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 01:54:42 -0000 On Fri, Dec 03, 2021 at 12:25:36PM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > Meetecho is specifically designed to handle hybrid meetings, which should be > an advantage over general purpose communication tools like Webex, Skype or > Zoom. It may well be that some features of Meetecho will have to evolve. For > example, having a bunch of folks tightly grouped in a mike line might not be > the best idea during a pandemic, it might be better to have people ask > questions from wherever they are sitting. That could be through a laptop, or > maybe a portable mike and a point and zoom camera pointing at the current > speaker. Or something else. We may want to hear opinions of the Meetecho > team about that. Yes, thats exactly my ask, although i was less concerned about Mike-line-covid-spread (which may be a valid concern), but mostly helping remote attendees to know who is speaking (not supported with current microphone line), and allowing local and remote participants to have equal chance at the microphone line. But as i said also: This is a larger-active-participant-meeting ( > 20 total active local+remote attendees ?) issue. On smaller meetings we might go unmoderated (as is done in many side/design-team/etc meetings), except that it would still be good for every remote attendent to know who is speaking (because even in smaller groups, not everybody knows everybody else, but thats exactly one of the key things you do want to lern through the meeting). Cheers Toerless From nobody Mon Dec 6 01:44:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887203A0992 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 01:44:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0_IbdsRqF6EN for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 01:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (mx3.open-xchange.com [87.191.57.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51E333A0988 for ; 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Mon, 06 Dec 2021 10:44:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 10:44:09 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Dave Lawrence , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev31 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 09:44:18 -0000 > Il 03/12/2021 22:50 Dave Lawrence ha scritto: > > To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting design that > better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just > allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that > being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage. It's not just > "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho available." > > I have no ready solutions. The point is actually whether there are any. Of course there are things that we could and should do to reduce the gap, but if we assume that virtual interactions are less effective than physical ones (I think so, though not everyone may agree), then this might be a matter of setting a trade-off between effectiveness and equality. And I also have no clear solutions to offer :) (I'm writing from a physical meeting room in the physical U.N. Internet Governance Forum in Katowice, Poland. It's just starting so I can't tell you how it is yet, except that it's not too busy for the moment, I'd say a few hundred people; the expected number of in-person participants was 1800 but many are cancelling at the last minute due to Omicron. The physical organization of the rooms is ICANN-like; a podium with the speakers, two big screens - one for real time scribing and another one to show remote participants when they speak - and the room filled up with broadly spaced seats and roaming mics for the audience) -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 6 05:10:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3353A0A1D for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 05:10:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbEyrbtIBc5l for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 05:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FA933A0A73 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 05:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6DARpS041192 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:10:27 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 910D721755A for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:10:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F8F21752E for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:10:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6DARJ6006161 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:10:27 +0100 Message-ID: <54b4be3c-41a9-b77a-7e86-6cb804ec3af1@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:10:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:10:38 -0000 Le 06/12/2021 à 10:44, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > > >> Il 03/12/2021 22:50 Dave Lawrence ha scritto: >> >> To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting design that >> better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just >> allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that >> being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage. It's not just >> "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho available." >> >> I have no ready solutions. > > The point is actually whether there are any. Of course there are > things that we could and should do to reduce the gap, but if we > assume that virtual interactions are less effective than physical > ones (I think so, though not everyone may agree), Thank you for noting that. Indeed there are online meetings less effective than in-person meetings, but as much as there are in-person meetings less effective than online meetings. There are examples of both cases. There were also in-person meetings - pre-covid times - in which groups of people met to just say a few words, but which are of very high importance and help progress things. They travelled thousands of miles and kilometers during long hours, for just a meeting of maybe 30minute. But that very effort proportionality, and the simple winks of traits and of eyes, the immediate reaction time (how does one react immediately when hearing a statement, at milli-second distance) make it qualify the trust and accountability much more than the immediacy of what webcam meetings can do. > then this might be a matter of setting a trade-off between > effectiveness and equality. And I also have no clear solutions to > offer :) > > (I'm writing from a physical meeting room in the physical U.N. > Internet Governance Forum in Katowice, Poland. It's just starting so > I can't tell you how it is yet, except that it's not too busy for > the moment, I'd say a few hundred people; the expected number of > in-person participants was 1800 but many are cancelling at the last > minute due to Omicron. The physical organization of the rooms is > ICANN-like; a podium with the speakers, two big screens - one for > real time scribing and another one to show remote participants when > they speak - and the room filled up with broadly spaced seats and > roaming mics for the audience) do you know whether there's anything planned for the _after_ meeting, like a means to test? do they say anything about the ventilation features? On my side I can tell this about the current covid waves, or a sort of 'covid weather report' if you wish: If a person comes to Poland from France, then that person comes from a growing wave (half to a peak) of a wave. If a person comes to Poland from Texas, then that person comes from a very low (almost lowest), even if a little bit growing, of the wave. If a person comes to Poland from Poland, then that person comes from a growing wave, almost at the peak, if not at the peak already, or already past recently. That gives a matrix of how the protection strengths could be planned in a person-to-person relationship, depending on their originating place. A sort of carrying an umbrella, or not. Alex > From nobody Mon Dec 6 05:36:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF7A3A0A78 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 05:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSBGbox45FQn for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 05:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C93693A0824 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 05:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6Da9Q0042539 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:36:09 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E3D2217588 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:36:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246F920C933 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:36:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6Da9i9027272 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:36:09 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:36:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:36:16 -0000 Le 06/12/2021 à 10:44, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > > >> Il 03/12/2021 22:50 Dave Lawrence ha scritto: >> >> To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting design that >> better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just >> allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that >> being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage. It's not just >> "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho available." >> >> I have no ready solutions. > > The point is actually whether there are any. Of course there are things that we could and should do to reduce the gap, but if we assume that virtual interactions are less effective than physical ones (I think so, though not everyone may agree), then this might be a matter of setting a trade-off between effectiveness and equality. And I also have no clear solutions to offer :) > > (I'm writing from a physical meeting room in the physical U.N. Internet Governance Forum in Katowice, Poland. It's just starting so I can't tell you how it is yet, except that it's not too busy for the moment, I'd say a few hundred people; the expected number of in-person participants was 1800 but many are cancelling at the last minute due to Omicron. The physical organization of the rooms is ICANN-like; a podium with the speakers, two big screens - one for real time scribing and another one to show remote participants when they speak - and the room filled up with broadly spaced seats and roaming mics for the audience) 'roaming' mics? A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of one to another? Alex > From nobody Mon Dec 6 07:40:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F0D3A0AC7 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:40:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G1-3AlX4EGRO for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B48D33A0AC2 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id p23so13382467iod.7 for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 07:40:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=leYeBuCPI65MzEdH9bH9In0mR8PlqRBR4rIobE86Mno=; b=XOEdsFHJy624D78UNREA+tOi1knwtNrx3vNlo0yX+Pxhx+Iww069TxNCXf8Ivv5wNH 4PoJw3j8Wpca+UBZrtIOI2gCmzIPQNObRye+IObpS9JG4ZucQ9wjZhgWe4IsnG/zT9Cm Q2+U793MDd6nqr1P92J+JCl/g3IJlp6CDgFEKp5x0Uoqy/qDs5bcAR72Gj29nxXFpooY ivuN0M7tg2b3lfCRC/ZEyaTFSWm7KuCNF6p8cqGMYf9otmzatuZJEoeBN54LuHInRrg/ QcBmwUePP9eBm7kTciIbfpLiP09wSmCaSeLULBFE8el9ZAEpjzYMgEAcf3XMidKMtaVw WqAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=leYeBuCPI65MzEdH9bH9In0mR8PlqRBR4rIobE86Mno=; b=VWen0duF4LMLA3FPT3iAMuuag6DsFeJ9BeJS4mXGKcU0v1+8BwNUheeZgUUJ7Mc4Bi 90jvGSJzYxL7T2rTRzq0cGwDhlnN/bK+urd+8kQ0aKhIwgytSFp2sf28I0As2ABhRblq 8RQEBOdQ7b71EBRMgiqdF/a9e3SUYrdnNqrALgJh/wtm8G2aRLiwkDg3NzBWzzY8vQxz LIhdYi5WtIHpwC1YN0kW0mV10frXOCzA8yCJGsu9J8HKFdDwMY3zCiAmiFpQzVcjIeE1 Rxm7YpkJAlcUEfdsRrAjTUG/HU8KLvg00CzW9hIahXe4v/4exLD5W77npLPa5D0CsAQk rRig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339vF+MOijQeO9HmjhbvGalsEFtc64dT4YVNGshfEVVtVxPVxyf Qpq7NDnBcEQwdqFZsEE6aS2M6C1ECgx6sED00P8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyAlcu+JjxMiceWvPNUb+/zCE9v+n6aV4OOfVJveRnm/hhynJ76CkhXJx5oORV7sf2SxejtqZqpuZwI7IGeCC0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:1923:: with SMTP id p35mr43817427jal.16.1638805215890; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 07:40:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:40:05 -0600 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfe6f805d27c1279" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 15:40:23 -0000 --000000000000bfe6f805d27c1279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:36 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Le 06/12/2021 =C3=A0 10:44, Vittorio Bertola a =C3=A9crit : > > > > > >> Il 03/12/2021 22:50 Dave Lawrence ha scritto: > >> > >> To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting design that > >> better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just > >> allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that > >> being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage. It's not just > >> "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho available." > >> > >> I have no ready solutions. > > > > The point is actually whether there are any. Of course there are things > that we could and should do to reduce the gap, but if we assume that > virtual interactions are less effective than physical ones (I think so, > though not everyone may agree), then this might be a matter of setting a > trade-off between effectiveness and equality. And I also have no clear > solutions to offer :) > > > > (I'm writing from a physical meeting room in the physical U.N. Internet > Governance Forum in Katowice, Poland. It's just starting so I can't tell > you how it is yet, except that it's not too busy for the moment, I'd say = a > few hundred people; the expected number of in-person participants was 180= 0 > but many are cancelling at the last minute due to Omicron. The physical > organization of the rooms is ICANN-like; a podium with the speakers, two > big screens - one for real time scribing and another one to show remote > participants when they speak - and the room filled up with broadly spaced > seats and roaming mics for the audience) > > First off, I agree with Huitema, I think that meetecho will handle hybrid meetings well. So don't worry folks! > 'roaming' mics? A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of one to > another? > > They do this in some meetings, why not? Behcet > Alex > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --000000000000bfe6f805d27c1279 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:36 AM Alexan= dre Petrescu <alexandre.= petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:


Le 06/12/2021 =C3=A0 10:44, Vittorio Bertola a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>
>
>> Il 03/12/2021 22:50 Dave Lawrence <tale@dd.org> ha scritto:
>>
>> To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting de= sign that
>> better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just >> allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that<= br> >> being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage.=C2=A0 It's= not just
>> "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho a= vailable."
>>
>> I have no ready solutions.
>
> The point is actually whether there are any. Of course there are thing= s that we could and should do to reduce the gap, but if we assume that virt= ual interactions are less effective than physical ones (I think so, though = not everyone may agree), then this might be a matter of setting a trade-off= between effectiveness and equality. And I also have no clear solutions to = offer :)
>
> (I'm writing from a physical meeting room in the physical U.N. Int= ernet Governance Forum in Katowice, Poland. It's just starting so I can= 't tell you how it is yet, except that it's not too busy for the mo= ment, I'd say a few hundred people; the expected number of in-person pa= rticipants was 1800 but many are cancelling at the last minute due to Omicr= on. The physical organization of the rooms is ICANN-like; a podium with the= speakers, two big screens - one for real time scribing and another one to = show remote participants when they speak - and the room filled up with broa= dly spaced seats and roaming mics for the audience)



First off, I agree with= Huitema, I think that meetecho will handle hybrid meetings well. So don= 9;t worry folks!


=C2=A0
'roaming' mics?=C2=A0 A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of= one to
another?


They do this in some meetings, why not= ?

Behcet=C2=A0
Alex

>

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--000000000000bfe6f805d27c1279-- From nobody Mon Dec 6 08:26:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8E83A0A1B for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:26:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0HssSVxfhUZ for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 08:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (mx4.open-xchange.com [87.191.57.184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 090373A080C for ; 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Mon, 06 Dec 2021 17:26:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:26:09 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <657968780.44454.1638807969655@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <54b4be3c-41a9-b77a-7e86-6cb804ec3af1@gmail.com> References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <54b4be3c-41a9-b77a-7e86-6cb804ec3af1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev31 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 16:26:19 -0000 > Il 06/12/2021 14:10 Alexandre Petrescu ha scritto: > > do you know whether there's anything planned for the _after_ meeting, like a means to test? There is a paid testing facility in a tent just outside of the venue; unvaccinated people are required to test every 72 hours (vaccinated/recovered people are not). Then, after the conference, it will depend on each participant's home country; some require you to test before flying back in all cases, some only do so if you are unvaccinated, some don't do it at all. > do they say anything about the ventilation features? It's a normal conference centre with normal ventilation. Everybody is required to wear masks at all times, except during the lunch buffet and when eating/drinking. Also, panelists can avoid wearing a mask for the whole session, including when not speaking (even the head of the organizing committee, who by the way is South-African, is sitting right in front of me and she's not wearing one, though I know her and I totally trust her, so I'm not worried). Looking around, I'd say masks are ~30% FFP2, ~40% basic face masks, and ~30% basic face masks worn under the chin, especially by the local staff. (In Poland there is near-zero care about covid - yesterday I had a look at the Christmas market in the main square, there were thousands of tightly packed people, like four per square meter, and mine was the only mask in the entire market. Actually, many of the unmasked people were watching an unmasked choir of traditional local singers singing Christmas carols live.) > 'roaming' mics? A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of one > to another? No, participants just pass it among themselves. Bottom line: I am not stupid, I have been wondering for days now if what I am doing is too risky or not. The threshold of what constitutes acceptable risk seems to be very, very different among organizations, people and peoples. We'll see if we'll all make headlines as the first big global Omicron superspreader event. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 6 11:43:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADFF3A0D98 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:43:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eZOV4-BY4Qx3 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F32103A0D96 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6JhcUj004290; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:43:38 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 25DAC21798F; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:43:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D85217929; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:43:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.225] ([10.14.0.225]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6Jhb21031638; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:43:37 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:43:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: fr To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 19:43:47 -0000 Le 06/12/2021 à 16:40, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : > > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:36 AM Alexandre Petrescu > > wrote: > > > > Le 06/12/2021 à 10:44, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > > > > > >> Il 03/12/2021 22:50 Dave Lawrence > ha scritto: > >> > >> To me, being "more hybrid" signifies having a meeting design that > >> better balances the local with the remote in a way that not just > >> allows remote participation but actually reduces the feeling that > >> being on the remote end is being at a disadvantage.  It's not just > >> "we're calling it hybrid because we've got Meetecho available." > >> > >> I have no ready solutions. > > > > The point is actually whether there are any. Of course there are > things that we could and should do to reduce the gap, but if we > assume that virtual interactions are less effective than physical > ones (I think so, though not everyone may agree), then this might be > a matter of setting a trade-off between effectiveness and equality. > And I also have no clear solutions to offer :) > > > > (I'm writing from a physical meeting room in the physical U.N. > Internet Governance Forum in Katowice, Poland. It's just starting so > I can't tell you how it is yet, except that it's not too busy for > the moment, I'd say a few hundred people; the expected number of > in-person participants was 1800 but many are cancelling at the last > minute due to Omicron. The physical organization of the rooms is > ICANN-like; a podium with the speakers, two big screens - one for > real time scribing and another one to show remote participants when > they speak - and the room filled up with broadly spaced seats and > roaming mics for the audience) > > > > First off, I agree with Huitema, I think that meetecho will handle > hybrid meetings well. So don't worry folks! > > > 'roaming' mics?  A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of one to > another? > > > They do this in some meetings, why not? Shaking hands is little recommended, so passing a batton from hand to hand would need to be also little recommended. Because there can exist a risk in passing the virus from mouth to hand when sneezing or coughing and further on the microphone and further to other hand and so on on the other faces when scratching. But I know that it might sound inappropriate to say so, I just say it. I also know that many 'recommendations' dont help at all. Why do you think one should not worry about roaming mics? Alex > > Behcet > > Alex > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > From nobody Mon Dec 6 11:53:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770473A0DCE for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:53:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id te8WHxhYsdQJ for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 989D93A0DDA for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6JrZKq020734; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:53:35 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9841D21792D; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:53:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACAB217837; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:53:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.225] ([10.14.0.225]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B6JrZWs000621; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:53:35 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:53:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: fr To: Vittorio Bertola , manycouches@ietf.org References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <54b4be3c-41a9-b77a-7e86-6cb804ec3af1@gmail.com> <657968780.44454.1638807969655@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <657968780.44454.1638807969655@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 19:53:42 -0000 Thank you very much for the description. Le 06/12/2021 à 17:26, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > > >> Il 06/12/2021 14:10 Alexandre Petrescu >> ha scritto: >> >> do you know whether there's anything planned for the _after_ >> meeting, like a means to test? > > There is a paid testing facility in a tent just outside of the > venue; unvaccinated people are required to test every 72 hours > (vaccinated/recovered people are not). Then, after the conference, > it will depend on each participant's home country; some require you > to test before flying back in all cases, some only do so if you are > unvaccinated, some don't do it at all. Thanks for the note. >> do they say anything about the ventilation features? > > It's a normal conference centre with normal ventilation. Were I there I would look whether the air flows go from down to up or horizontally or diagonally. IF they go horizontally there might exist a risk of projecting one's breath to the others. > Everybody is required to wear masks at all times, except during the > lunch buffet and when eating/drinking. Also, panelists can avoid > wearing a mask for the whole session, including when not speaking Thanks this is good to know. > (even the head of the organizing committee, who by the way is > South-African, is sitting right in front of me and she's not wearing > one, though I know her and I totally trust her, so I'm not worried). ME too I trust several people. But do I trust they dont have the virus in their breath? Maybe they dont even know it, it is not their fault. There is a difference between normal trust and covid-times trust. > Looking around, I'd say masks are ~30% FFP2, ~40% basic face masks, > and ~30% basic face masks worn under the chin, especially by the > local staff. Thanks. > > (In Poland there is near-zero care about covid - yesterday I had a > look at the Christmas market in the main square, there were > thousands of tightly packed people, like four per square meter, and > mine was the only mask in the entire market. Actually, many of the > unmasked people were watching an unmasked choir of traditional local > singers singing Christmas carols live.) Good to know. The description helps me see the picture of it. > >> 'roaming' mics? A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of one >> to another? > > No, participants just pass it among themselves. Hmm... danger, the virus can be transmitted like that. That passing mic is a risk, should be banned. > Bottom line: I am not stupid, I have been wondering for days now if > what I am doing is too risky or not. The threshold of what > constitutes acceptable risk seems to be very, very different among > organizations, people and peoples. We'll see if we'll all make > headlines as the first big global Omicron superspreader event. Thank you. I respect your decision. Indeed participating in such an event is a matter of personal consideration taking into account many factors, including factors hard to describe. I would like to suggest that each mobility event each one of us is doing impacts every one else. If in Poland a meeting spreads the virus then that spread affects everyone else, even those who did not go to Poland. If on the other hand the meeting in Poland has a 0 transmission, then the organisation should be congratulated and the sanitary protection method should be replicated to all others. We can know that (whether it was 0 transmission or not) only after the meeting, if they test and report the results. Alex From nobody Wed Dec 8 01:54:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495383A0CC2 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 01:54:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SNGS9UMkq6fB for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 01:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C43E83A0CC1 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 01:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B89sZGM043404; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:54:35 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 872F9204AAC; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:54:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B65204A94; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:54:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1B89sZxH020066; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:54:35 +0100 Message-ID: <213858ca-94ba-5d9e-d7af-1e63b6468f7f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:54:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: Vittorio Bertola , manycouches@ietf.org References: <25002.37135.880155.78893@gro.dd.org> <1025304026.36677.1638783849716@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <54b4be3c-41a9-b77a-7e86-6cb804ec3af1@gmail.com> <657968780.44454.1638807969655@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <657968780.44454.1638807969655@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] challenges with Hybrid meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 09:54:41 -0000 I got a notification on twitter about an event at IGF today 13h CET. It announces speeches about transparency, policy and trust. I tried to formulate a gentle reply on twitter asking about covid-related protocol and hoping for non-spread if that is an in-person meeting. I did my best to formulate it politely hoping it gets through. Alex Le 06/12/2021 à 17:26, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > > >> Il 06/12/2021 14:10 Alexandre Petrescu >> ha scritto: >> >> do you know whether there's anything planned for the _after_ >> meeting, like a means to test? > > There is a paid testing facility in a tent just outside of the venue; > unvaccinated people are required to test every 72 hours > (vaccinated/recovered people are not). Then, after the conference, it > will depend on each participant's home country; some require you to > test before flying back in all cases, some only do so if you are > unvaccinated, some don't do it at all. > >> do they say anything about the ventilation features? > > It's a normal conference centre with normal ventilation. > > Everybody is required to wear masks at all times, except during the > lunch buffet and when eating/drinking. Also, panelists can avoid > wearing a mask for the whole session, including when not speaking > (even the head of the organizing committee, who by the way is > South-African, is sitting right in front of me and she's not wearing > one, though I know her and I totally trust her, so I'm not worried). > Looking around, I'd say masks are ~30% FFP2, ~40% basic face masks, > and ~30% basic face masks worn under the chin, especially by the > local staff. > > (In Poland there is near-zero care about covid - yesterday I had a > look at the Christmas market in the main square, there were thousands > of tightly packed people, like four per square meter, and mine was > the only mask in the entire market. Actually, many of the unmasked > people were watching an unmasked choir of traditional local singers > singing Christmas carols live.) > >> 'roaming' mics? A hostesse passes the microphone from hand of one >> to another? > > No, participants just pass it among themselves. > > Bottom line: I am not stupid, I have been wondering for days now if > what I am doing is too risky or not. The threshold of what > constitutes acceptable risk seems to be very, very different among > organizations, people and peoples. We'll see if we'll all make > headlines as the first big global Omicron superspreader event. > From nobody Fri Dec 10 00:50:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5D93A0C40 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:50:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_SHORT_SPOOFED_URL=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vjnpkc0gHzh6 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 151993A0C3E for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 133so7462468pgc.12 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:50:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SacEAvibGYbMixM5ZTS2HA6UMJRPnRcuq3hH+xL7ARg=; b=Y01/H5vxHwi9VlUga4PKu2aggPGX4FBPEuG1cRLmrnQcI6Zv4vc7KaNkffcuo/B3tI Iv58igx0eQhbWgV4Iz5fvQbdu3GUHWSPpyxYQLrRTn4C8pjClP42m54AfcH+aT0pXhYd FkaA3G5C9v3Pp2+st0382m4fuyg6Y3NryDJ3g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SacEAvibGYbMixM5ZTS2HA6UMJRPnRcuq3hH+xL7ARg=; b=tMO977ZS8REkE1QV4GXP89XOOPGq8clUNfv+oLiF0Xzojck/v0zcXwBwWM8eMJ2kHn zN6DNpaMGAujBIpYCZm6J3IlFcrr9jzN7rshjVsSHqJZLFjSqOODw4ALQLfkxyFgV/IN IBUPxQaaftOE9Sovex06+x9f8cEbHEW1ejXz6Io5b8Cjvwgvpir6S0ttarQhrQjtvyUn SwcJvFf22ZqA55mXZxnAqGizqCCsnMWH7gwv37YDa0zAxdXz9DkrBShYgMIEfKcCGcyq wgEjzonBImoiWKH9+EyiRpM7cR2XjYlc0Rb8+L9R2B7iiuuyI6UeGaLsNoYd0hIr8u/5 eZrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533h2Q+BYQ979wZgNmvo8igSMa8e0ST67o+rw2kzdvs7OmbH5eOZ pdnHKrYrx8B1yPCQ+m4cs7eavKRQOvwXGbhLwtPibfu6dSo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjyfTrMrbV4wtUu7xPkzqf2rOOgG3o3uAH4UR/CNMEMl2IxnkIWjL+LIDxgVHTKlqzhOVUw50Oen1EVH9AYyY= X-Received: by 2002:a62:ee02:0:b0:4b1:3d41:450 with SMTP id e2-20020a62ee02000000b004b13d410450mr1911489pfi.8.1639126248770; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:50:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6a10:8f2a:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:50:48 -0800 (PST) From: Mallory Knodel Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 03:50:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: manycouches@ietf.org Cc: "lars@eggert.org" , "shmoo-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cce06305d2c6d170" Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] New draft charter X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 08:50:55 -0000 --000000000000cce06305d2c6d170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a new version of the draft charter for the group. Lars has just put it in the datatracker as per the below. Thanks in advance for your comments, -Mallory On Friday, December 10, 2021, IETF Secretariat < ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org> wrote: > State changed to Draft Charter. > Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ > > > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --000000000000cce06305d2c6d170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,

As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a n= ew version of the draft charter for the group. Lars has just put it in the = datatracker as per the below.

Thanks in advance for your comments,
-Mallory



--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg= fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


--000000000000cce06305d2c6d170-- From nobody Fri Dec 10 01:24:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CB03A0D42 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 01:24:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqEBILYLzJq6 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 01:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00B393A0D39 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 01:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BA9O9YK002128 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:24:09 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 07E49202C9A for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:24:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27C220200F for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:24:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BA9O8oG031511 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:24:08 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:24:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?New_draft_charter_-_=C2=B7?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:24:17 -0000 A side remark I would like to make, even though it might be more for the tools list. As far as I can remember the '-' dashes are not correct in English lists. They should be bullet points like this: 'o' or like that: '·'. I agree translation from google text to pure text might loose the beautiful dots, but it does not mean the dashes is correct. I might be wrong though. We can also think this is an IETF style to use '-' dashes in lists and continue. Alex Le 10/12/2021 à 09:50, Mallory Knodel a écrit : > Hi all, > > As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a new version of the draft > charter for the group. Lars has just put it in the datatracker as per > the below. > > Thanks in advance for your comments, > -Mallory > > > On Friday, December 10, 2021, IETF Secretariat > > wrote: > > State changed to Draft Charter. > Datatracker URL: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ > > > > > > -- > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Fri Dec 10 09:51:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED613A0A17 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:51:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVo0lqKFGz41 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFF073A0A11 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id o14so6747668plg.5 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:51:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=lgR9YbSeyXqZWrFUjTEGblR6p/qp7wuYbTyOXTJ7bZI=; b=bWTucSHdvWXAm1M6sXa2MnQF2xwO5NvuW51AF2GNmitmN8mMinJHSr0hYPmfGY29m2 rDWFHxQB7Xa3qg8wJG7xehPlyWXJ81SSS6QgpAP2SCv9fIotOzc0HUeLFfYqO4hFGUuM jv18z2Ky4VPWZfxunMK+5pScRpzykTf5oojaCITObFINZDgWfawG1aY2YfdrDw1M9Gmj yS5z+o2NejaPR5228Bn2XVEykENEJj8Y2ckc77oKpYOEGIHZyxstl50yj0KM9ANpkO9q bjLW6V7feyvG50E1Y0IO/M5ajQUT1sbVQ9bSplU7hj/xBmfO81t0B9DOlKiW1tk0XISn z4xA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=lgR9YbSeyXqZWrFUjTEGblR6p/qp7wuYbTyOXTJ7bZI=; b=3XTyp0SrmB+slL5SSLpFjaW7Z0VdAMh6jiBo19r6rTrf2MAQ5rkxi2CNKqa02JWhbz tMVNRyDaMJTqk1sQ6npX+WEHmHZWXDPow6CocsPlW4t1DI7+NbX997C7TSXpNj4k9u5G k7QRR0h94EyUaAB3LT5xpJlSLaPpIHcRgVBJA/KDCSxmyByMYRqziq0MKwb6QE7KP2qX YiSzzabymuQZfF6g2xRvviBklojHgNcXbmgkb05cdLXls8WtCMbT3cichjoTbKolgLz+ mi9OzDPm4RolIiHDwOgvZcJEzVOKxwBcWuaD7PZjskVKxX0CsBXvE5PT0TUnVu+KLyhr z2sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533YTUXeHagDDKzYK3UfbxA1ETi15QARPShvJS/McRJwcWPhYvwK AB8it0JW5ezBdXE3lP13N+goHQhS16Bk1w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtrRPsEGx/+2Un1rHpuFg4aCrL6c9gbZmDncB+C4h1WV9z4CreB/Jg0kcK/YrOMSdUOnwqwA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2290:: with SMTP id kx16mr25552341pjb.193.1639158658289; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip70-185-177-201.sb.sd.cox.net. [70.185.177.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a16sm3080139pgm.57.2021.12.10.09.50.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:50:57 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:50:56 -0800 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <949B9167-2726-4B00-843F-95F9E2697749@gmail.com> References: To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?New_draft_charter_-_=C2=B7?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:51:05 -0000 AFAIK, dashes are common =E2=80=9Cbullets=E2=80=9D. Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > On Dec 10, 2021, at 1:24 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFA side remark I would like to make, even though it might be more f= or the tools list. >=20 > As far as I can remember the '-' dashes are not correct in English lists. = They should be bullet points like this: 'o' or like that: '=C2=B7'. >=20 > I agree translation from google text to pure text might loose the beautifu= l dots, but it does not mean the dashes is correct. >=20 > I might be wrong though. >=20 > We can also think this is an IETF style to use '-' dashes in lists and con= tinue. >=20 > Alex >=20 >=20 >> Le 10/12/2021 =C3=A0 09:50, Mallory Knodel a =C3=A9crit : >> Hi all, >> As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a new version of the draft c= harter for the group. Lars has just put it in the datatracker as per the bel= ow. >> Thanks in advance for your comments, >> -Mallory >> On Friday, December 10, 2021, IETF Secretariat > wrote: >> State changed to Draft Charter. >> Datatracker URL: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ >> >> --=20 >> Mallory Knodel >> CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology >> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Fri Dec 10 14:43:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED9D3A0908 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:43:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wMZY7z2M1SJb for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A8D23A0902 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BAMhD3E031467 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:43:13 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 03570205DA8 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:43:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE654205C1D for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:43:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.28] ([10.14.0.28]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BAMhCtU031398 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:43:12 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:43:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] New draft charter X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:43:21 -0000 There are no milestones, right? It's because March approaches and my gut feeling says that I will see an announcement of in-person parts of IETF meeting for March. I think there was not enough time to construct any form of consensual principle or advisory to IESG about such aspect. There is no I-D about that. Or maybe the email list discussion points are sufficient? This is what happened with the 2-week online meetings and the Plenary in the first week. There was some discussion and then a decision was made. At the speed at which we currently discuss these topics and currently organize I dont think something consensual might appear before March. But there are signs of hope. There are advantages and inconvenients in this situation. Alex The charter says: > - Meeting planning for mostly online, or “hybrid,” meetings. Meetings that have > an in-person component but with significantly more remote participants than a > mostly-in-person meeting need to be planned with community consensus > guidelines, too. While trade-offs have often been addressed in favor of onsite > attendees, the IESG and LLC would benefit from having community consensus on > high-level guidance about the organization of such hybrid meetings, regarding > such things as the meeting schedule, the meeting length in days, and > acceptable limitations on the maximum allowed or minimum expected onsite > attendees, whether and how to schedule and prioritize among onsite activities > such as side meetings, the terminal room, the code lounge, and others, and > other scheduling aspects. Le 10/12/2021 à 09:50, Mallory Knodel a écrit : > Hi all, > > As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a new version of the draft > charter for the group. Lars has just put it in the datatracker as per > the below. > > Thanks in advance for your comments, > -Mallory > > > On Friday, December 10, 2021, IETF Secretariat > > wrote: > > State changed to Draft Charter. > Datatracker URL: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ > > > > > > -- > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Sat Dec 11 03:03:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A2B3A0BED for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 03:03:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.668 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.668 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vl-_OGXXWG3j for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 03:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 025ED3A0BEC for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 03:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BBB2xMA031990 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:02:59 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2ADF22018B0 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:02:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2021D200D0B for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:02:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.189] ([10.14.0.189]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BBB2wOp017184 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:02:58 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7k180fVQdhUms6uByTgkhkxK" Message-ID: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:02:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:03:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7k180fVQdhUms6uByTgkhkxK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The charter proposal says: > - Meeting planning for mostly online, or “hybrid,” meetings. Meetings that have > an in-person component but with significantly more remote participants than a > mostly-in-person meeting need to be planned with community consensus > guidelines, too. While trade-offs have often been addressed in favor of onsite > attendees, the IESG and LLC would benefit from having community consensus on > high-level guidance about the organization of such hybrid meetings, regarding > such things as the meeting schedule, the meeting length in days, and > acceptable limitations on the maximum allowed or minimum expected onsite > attendees, whether and how to schedule and prioritize among onsite activities > such as side meetings, the terminal room, the code lounge, and others, and > other scheduling aspects. I think there is no time to write a draft, present it, discuss it, see the interest, propose adoption, cycle through versions, issue an RFC, etc. However, I think the idea of common agreements is good in these special times. Thus, I propose by this email that, in case an in-person component of the meeting happens, that     an evaluation of virus spread is made after the meeting, as good as it can be made, in the spirit of best effort. What do you think? Alex --------------7k180fVQdhUms6uByTgkhkxK Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The charter proposal says:

- Meeting planning for mostly online, or “hybrid,” meetings. Meetings that have
  an in-person component but with significantly more remote participants than a
  mostly-in-person meeting need to be planned with community consensus
  guidelines, too. While trade-offs have often been addressed in favor of onsite
  attendees, the IESG and LLC would benefit from having community consensus on
  high-level guidance about the organization of such hybrid meetings, regarding
  such things as the meeting schedule, the meeting length in days, and
  acceptable limitations on the maximum allowed or minimum expected onsite
  attendees, whether and how to schedule and prioritize among onsite activities
  such as side meetings, the terminal room, the code lounge, and others, and
  other scheduling aspects.

I think there is no time to write a draft, present it, discuss it, see the interest, propose adoption, cycle through versions, issue an RFC, etc.

However, I think the idea of common agreements is good in these special times.

Thus, I propose by this email that, in case an in-person component of the meeting happens, that

    an evaluation of virus spread is made after the meeting,

as good as it can be made, in the spirit of best effort.

What do you think?

Alex

--------------7k180fVQdhUms6uByTgkhkxK-- From nobody Sat Dec 11 14:53:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B6E3A0841 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 14:53:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tjqQ0HEQVn9R for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 14:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AF403A083D for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 14:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mwBFH-0000N5-3s; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 17:53:35 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 17:53:29 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> References: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 22:53:44 -0000 --On Saturday, December 11, 2021 12:02 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > The charter proposal says: >=20 >> - Meeting planning for mostly online, or "hybrid," >> meetings. Meetings that have an in-person component but with >> significantly more remote participants than a >> mostly-in-person meeting need to be planned with community >... > I think there is no time to write a draft, present it, discuss > it, see the interest, propose adoption, cycle through > versions, issue an RFC, etc. >=20 > However, I think the idea of common agreements is good in > these special times. >=20 > Thus, I propose by this email that, in case an in-person > component of the meeting happens, that >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an evaluation of virus spread is made = after the > meeting, >=20 > as good as it can be made, in the spirit of best effort. >=20 > What do you think? While I would be interested, on general principles, in the results of such an evaluation (or attempt at it), I'd like to see you think about and address several questions about what such an evaluation would mean and how you would suggest it be conducted:=20 (1) Many of the questions about SARS-CoV-2 and vaccinations involve the distinction between prevention of severe disease and prevention of infection (and, with it, presumably, the risk of infecting others although I gather that link is not certain). As I understand it, it is also becoming clear that vaccines do not provide lifelong protection so that questions like "how many doses, or what, did one have and when was the most recent one" are important. If the virus evolves to the point that variant-specific doses are needed, that implies a need for every more detail to be able to interpret an evaluation? Would you expect to ask people about their vaccination history and status and/or overall health status along with whether or not they were infected after attending a meeting? (2) Many IETF participants are fairly sensitive to privacy issues. Do you have reason to believe that a sufficiently large fraction of those who attended a meeting would answer questions or provide needed information to make an evaluation meaningful? Or do you believe that those who would provide information would be a sufficiently representative sample of the community (i.e., would have the same demographics and infection/illness patterns as the population of meeting attendees) that useful inferences could be drawn from them? (3) Several studies of survey populations have shown that, at least in the absence of specific incentives to participate and other things being equal, asking more questions or asking questions more often reduces the number of people who respond from the population from which one is trying get information. Moreover, on at least some dimensions, those who do not respond or who drop out of panel studies, are different from those who remain, leading to different ("biased") results from those who participate than one might have gotten from the population as a whole. I have no quantitative reason to believe that the IETF community would follow that pattern: as far as I know, we have never even attempted to ask the kinds of questions that would permit us to evaluate that. But do you see any risk there and, if so, are there questions or surveys you would propose to eliminate to get better quality from the evaluation you propose? (4) Finally and perhaps most important, in what way would you see such an evaluation as being actionable? As has been discussed several times before, things change quickly. "Things" include virus variants, perceived surges, national and local regulations, population vaccination percentage, and so on. If an evaluation concludes that one meeting either resulted in few infections or many, what would that tell us about decisions we should make about the next meeting or the meeting after that? thanks, john From nobody Sun Dec 12 12:21:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7443A0ADF for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 12:21:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i37IsLYej-6N for ; 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Sun, 12 Dec 2021 20:21:20 +0000 Received: from LO3P265MB2092.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::b489:89ea:b059:6763]) by LO3P265MB2092.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::b489:89ea:b059:6763%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4778.017; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 20:21:20 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: John C Klensin , Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting Thread-Index: AQHX75L1rfM7gGEVdES9JFglXEMUhawvSmyQ Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 20:21:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b96d15f8-0f22-4292-1496-08d9bdacf60b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO4P265MB3872:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO3P265MB2092.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b96d15f8-0f22-4292-1496-08d9bdacf60b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Dec 2021 20:21:20.9269 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: g6ErdcJ9X8KiqoUR61/+v/d0+ZfRw8AUC7Slqtu5uj14FxLbHPdfrVKk0aJqqsR1WY/PRINEFGMKeG+Zb6eA8+ZY9xxLIjCkuwj1vsONNX8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO4P265MB3872 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 20:21:50 -0000 LS1PbiBTYXR1cmRheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMTEsIDIwMjEgMjI6NTMgSm9obiBDIEtsZW5zaW4gPGpv aG4taWV0ZkBqY2suY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiAoNCkgRmluYWxseSBhbmQgcGVyaGFwcyBtb3N0 IGltcG9ydGFudCwgaW4gd2hhdCB3YXkgd291bGQgeW91IHNlZSBzdWNoIGFuIGV2YWx1YXRpb24g YXMgYmVpbmcgYWN0aW9uYWJsZT8gICBBcyBoYXMgYmVlbiBkaXNjdXNzZWQgc2V2ZXJhbCB0aW1l cyBiZWZvcmUsIHRoaW5ncyBjaGFuZ2UgcXVpY2tseS4gICJUaGluZ3MiIGluY2x1ZGUgdmlydXMg dmFyaWFudHMsIHBlcmNlaXZlZCBzdXJnZXMsIG5hdGlvbmFsIGFuZCBsb2NhbCByZWd1bGF0aW9u cywgcG9wdWxhdGlvbiB2YWNjaW5hdGlvbiBwZXJjZW50YWdlLCBhbmQgc28gb24uICBJZiBhbiBl dmFsdWF0aW9uIGNvbmNsdWRlcyB0aGF0IG9uZSBtZWV0aW5nIGVpdGhlciByZXN1bHRlZCBpbiBm ZXcgaW5mZWN0aW9ucyBvciBtYW55LCB3aGF0IHdvdWxkIHRoYXQgdGVsbCB1cyBhYm91dCBkZWNp c2lvbnMgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIG1ha2UgYWJvdXQgdGhlIG5leHQgbWVldGluZyBvciB0aGUgbWVldGlu ZyBhZnRlciB0aGF0Pw0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIHRoaXMgaXMgYW4gaW1wb3J0YW50IHBvaW50LiAgSW4g dGVybXMgb2YgYW55IGluLXBlcnNvbiBtZWV0aW5nIGluIHRoZSBuZWFyIGZ1dHVyZSwgdGhlcmUg YXJlIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgcHJlY2F1dGlvbnMgdGhhdCBjYW4gYmUgdGFrZW4gc3VjaCBhcyBsb29r aW5nIGF0IHRoZSBzcGFjaW5nIG9mIHNlYXRzLCB2ZW50aWxhdGlvbiwgdXNlIG9mIG1hc2tzLCBl YXN5IGFjY2VzcyB0byB0ZXN0aW5nIGV0Yy4gIEdvaW5nIG11Y2ggYmV5b25kIHRoYXQgaW50bywg Zm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHBvc3QtZXZlbnQgdGVzdGluZyBvciBzcGVjdWxhdGluZyBhYm91dCBmdXR1 cmUgc3VyZ2VzLCBzZWVtcyB0byBzdHJheSBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIGNvcmUgY29tcGV0ZW5jaWVzIG9m IHRoZSBJRVRGLiAgSSdkIHByZWZlciB0byBzZWUgZW5lcmdpZXMgZm9jdXNlZCBvbiBoZWxwaW5n IHRvIGRlZmluZSB0aGUgYmVzdCBwb3NzaWJsZSBoeWJyaWQgbWVldGluZyBleHBlcmllbmNlLiAg DQoNCkFuZHJldyANCg0KDQo= From nobody Sun Dec 12 13:51:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655C43A0BE1 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xk2p3E_7vgsP for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 13:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48CFB3A07D3 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 13:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mwWkH-0002J0-SC; Sun, 12 Dec 2021 16:51:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 16:50:55 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Andrew Campling , Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <0C751548848BC232F8F0A891@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 21:51:16 -0000 --On Sunday, December 12, 2021 20:21 +0000 Andrew Campling wrote: > --On Saturday, December 11, 2021 22:53 John C Klensin > wrote: > >> (4) Finally and perhaps most important, in what way would you >> see such an evaluation as being actionable? As has been >> discussed several times before, things change quickly. >> "Things" include virus variants, perceived surges, national >> and local regulations, population vaccination percentage, and >> so on. If an evaluation concludes that one meeting either >> resulted in few infections or many, what would that tell us >> about decisions we should make about the next meeting or the >> meeting after that? > > I think this is an important point. In terms of any in-person > meeting in the near future, there are reasonable precautions > that can be taken such as looking at the spacing of seats, > ventilation, use of masks, easy access to testing etc. Going > much beyond that into, for example, post-event testing or > speculating about future surges, seems to stray beyond the > core competencies of the IETF. I'd prefer to see energies > focused on helping to define the best possible hybrid meeting > experience. And, without really disagreeing with you, I'd prefer to see energies focused on making the Internet work better... and continue to wonder whether taking time in this WG to obsess (if that is not too strong a word) about details of meeting arrangements and associated COVID-19 issues detracts from that goal. I wonder whether it does not lead to a different question. We all know the advantages of f2f meetings (whether we can quantify them or enumerate them in a way that would get consensus or not). We don't know the balance between meetings with some IETF participants present but many not and just staying all-online until things stabilize enough to make reliable predictions. We also don't know the risks of regionalized meetings -- ones in which people from an extended local area show up but very few others will -- nor how to predict (especially far in advance) whether that would occur or whether rotating such meetings among regions would adequately mitigate any negative effects. We probably cannot find answers without trying several consecutive "hybrid" meetings that might go either well or poorly (although history suggests we would get better over time). If it does poorly, we are at risk of losing whatever benefits f2f meetings convey for much of 2022 (at least). How do we ask the question of whether the risks (and the costs of ongoing discussions in this WG) are worth it or whether we should just reconcile ourselves to online meetings throughout 2022 and, presumably, refocus the efforts that would go into this WG and broader discussions, inevitably on a meeting by meeting, on getting substantive technical work done? Just asking. john From nobody Mon Dec 13 06:44:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327D73A0125 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 06:44:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRVFNB-uWch2 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 06:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ADF33A011D for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 06:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BDEij7k006905; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:44:45 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 237D920839E; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:44:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1388A20836D; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:44:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BDEiiDw022962; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:44:45 +0100 Message-ID: <1d748d7a-e952-32bb-49ae-88251f0d4cee@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:44:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: Andrew Campling , John C Klensin , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:44:53 -0000 Le 12/12/2021 à 21:21, Andrew Campling a écrit : > --On Saturday, December 11, 2021 22:53 John C Klensin > wrote: > >> (4) Finally and perhaps most important, in what way would you see >> such an evaluation as being actionable? As has been discussed >> several times before, things change quickly. "Things" include >> virus variants, perceived surges, national and local regulations, >> population vaccination percentage, and so on. If an evaluation >> concludes that one meeting either resulted in few infections or >> many, what would that tell us about decisions we should make about >> the next meeting or the meeting after that? > > I think this is an important point. In terms of any in-person > meeting in the near future, there are reasonable precautions that can > be taken such as looking at the spacing of seats, ventilation, About the reasonable precaution 'ventilation': Where I live only recently the ventilation is admitted on a large scale as being an important issue. Since yesterday we get public advertisement about the necessity of ventilation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAjcp5aK86I Infected air is invisible to the naked eye, and it is more than the result of just coughing or sneezing. It is simple expiration that puts such infected air in the air. However, even that, shows a person at the window potentially receiving all potentially infected air. The solution to that is to propose _vertical_ aeration, from down to up. Without it, the ventilation might hurt as much as it might help. > use of masks, easy access to testing etc. Going much beyond that > into, for example, post-event testing or speculating about future > surges, seems to stray beyond the core competencies of the IETF. > I'd prefer to see energies focused on helping to define the best > possible hybrid meeting experience. I agree. But a hybrid meeting experience has many parts in it. It is not sufficient to say that a 'hybrid' meeting is a modern hyper-advanced form of online meeting with spatial.io or other metaverse. A hybrid meeting would necessarily have an in-person component, I think. It is that little in-person component that I discuss here. If we agree on that, I would like to ask you, for my clarification, what kind of energies do you see focused on helping to define the best possible hybrid meeting experience? By what handle should one approach the creation of such an experience? Alex > > Andrew > > From nobody Mon Dec 13 07:43:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBAC3A05A9 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 07:43:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WolWJ44ZpIYi for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 07:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B60C13A0793 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 07:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BDFhTvB004648; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:43:29 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A1E2D20859F; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:43:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9331F208591; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:43:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BDFhTBU014084; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:43:29 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:43:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: John C Klensin , manycouches@ietf.org References: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:43:38 -0000 thanks for the reply, Le 11/12/2021 à 23:53, John C Klensin a écrit : > > > --On Saturday, December 11, 2021 12:02 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: > >> The charter proposal says: >> >>> - Meeting planning for mostly online, or "hybrid," meetings. >>> Meetings that have an in-person component but with significantly >>> more remote participants than a mostly-in-person meeting need to >>> be planned with community >> ... I think there is no time to write a draft, present it, discuss >> it, see the interest, propose adoption, cycle through versions, >> issue an RFC, etc. >> >> However, I think the idea of common agreements is good in these >> special times. >> >> Thus, I propose by this email that, in case an in-person component >> of the meeting happens, that >> >> an evaluation of virus spread is made after the meeting, >> >> as good as it can be made, in the spirit of best effort. >> >> What do you think? > > While I would be interested, on general principles, in the results of > such an evaluation (or attempt at it), I'd like to see you think > about and address several questions about what such an evaluation > would mean and how you would suggest it be conducted: > > (1) Many of the questions about SARS-CoV-2 and vaccinations involve > the distinction between prevention of severe disease and prevention > of infection (and, with it, presumably, the risk of infecting others > although I gather that link is not certain). As I understand it, it > is also becoming clear that vaccines do not provide lifelong > protection so that questions like "how many doses, or what, did one > have and when was the most recent one" are important. If the virus > evolves to the point that variant-specific doses are needed, that > implies a need for every more detail to be able to interpret an > evaluation? Would you expect to ask people about their vaccination > history and status and/or overall health status along with whether or > not they were infected after attending a meeting? I agree many of the questions of how vaccination prevents covid. Further, the questioning should lead to a clarification of what we call today 'vaccination' anti-covid. I think the name 'vaccine' is wrong, and that 'vaccine' is more of a 'pillule' (I dont know the name in English, a sort of 'pain killer', maybe a 'pill'). This 'pill' is something one takes from time to time against some temporary headache. It has only limited effect in time. Like a new headache necessitates a new pain killer 'pill', a new covid wave necessitates a new such pill, for a little while. On another hand, my anti-tetanos vaccine lasts 10 year guaranteed. About the question of asking people a vaccination history and status or overall health status? I think it depends how it's done. I know a few meetings I have been invited to, and a few hospitals I went to: they asked me to fill in forms telling under honour whether or not I have fever, covid, etc. They committed to save locally these papers and not tell the contents to anyone. However, I have no means to make sure that is respected. Ideally, legislation would provide me a means to check that privacy is respected with these forms, but no. Ideally too, the other members of the meeting _would_ be informed if at least one form said 'yes - infected', which would be good, but would risk infringe the privacy of the person who said 'yes'. But I believe there can be a few potentially good ways in which this could be done. One would be the following: display a rule that says having covid is not a person's wrong, it is just something that happens. This is very important to persuade somebody that having covid is not a matter of privacy, but a matter of being homo sapiens. It is not a shame, but a biological fact. Then, test each person at the beginning of the meeting, and at the end. The testers should be IETFers too. They should not use electronic means, but just the chemistry means. The testing tools should not be connected. Store the handwritten notes in a safelock. The keys should be held by the Sergeant-at-Arms or by the IETF Chair, or so. At the end of the meeting compare the numbers and publish them. There are maybe other good ways. The ways could be improved. > (2) Many IETF participants are fairly sensitive to privacy issues. > Do you have reason to believe that a sufficiently large fraction of > those who attended a meeting would answer questions or provide needed > information to make an evaluation meaningful? Or do you believe that > those who would provide information would be a sufficiently > representative sample of the community (i.e., would have the same > demographics and infection/illness patterns as the population of > meeting attendees) that useful inferences could be drawn from them? Thanks for asking. It is a reasonable suggestion to think that maybe sampling through the group would be representative enough. At the same time, in this particular case, I think _all_ should be tested, to the best of one's effort. Without testing all, then it makes no sense. A poll for election might accept a margin error, but here even the smallest number is critical. The privacy sensitive at IETF could be reassured if one thinks that is IETF testing by IETF. The full openness of expression of IETF that guaranteed the growth of Internet across various social organisations might be needed in the creation of a tool to maintain that method itself. The method must continue. > (3) Several studies of survey populations have shown that, at least > in the absence of specific incentives to participate and other things > being equal, asking more questions or asking questions more often > reduces the number of people who respond from the population from > which one is trying get information. Moreover, on at least some > dimensions, those who do not respond or who drop out of panel > studies, are different from those who remain, leading to different > ("biased") results from those who participate than one might have > gotten from the population as a whole. I have no quantitative reason > to believe that the IETF community would follow that pattern: as far > as I know, we have never even attempted to ask the kinds of questions > that would permit us to evaluate that. But do you see any risk there > and, if so, are there questions or surveys you would propose to > eliminate to get better quality from the evaluation you propose? The representativeness issue is indeed important. One would want 100% participation to polls in order to give best results. But in this particular case I do not propose further polls at IETF. I think I have enough myself of those, so to speak. I think these polls illustrate how smart we can be, but do not really advance out of the current problem. To that end, a consensus-based traditional WG method might be better adapted than sampling polls. The problem I see with the consensus-based traditional WG method is that it is not fast enough for the decision making for organizing a next IETF meeting. That speed problem can be addressed in various ways. The factors that lead to speed reduction can be analyzed. For example, auhtoring an I-D takes time because this and that, getting tract for it takes time because this and that, LC-ing takes time because this and that. And so on. Maybe ultra-short I-Ds are possible, maybe time-bound discussions are possible, or other methods. Another problem, currently, is that there seems to be an initiative towards consensus-based advisory to the upper IETF administration. But currently there is a lack of knowledge about what the IETF administration has at hand as tools and data to plan the next in-person meeting. What advice can shmoo WG think to formulated, to build, if there is no knowledge of the context of where this advice will be potentially applied? > (4) Finally and perhaps most important, in what way would you see > such an evaluation as being actionable? As has been discussed > several times before, things change quickly. "Things" include virus > variants, perceived surges, national and local regulations, > population vaccination percentage, and so on. If an evaluation > concludes that one meeting either resulted in few infections or many, > what would that tell us about decisions we should make about the next > meeting or the meeting after that? If a spread evaluation concludes the spread was 0 then that is a very important factor in the decision making for the next next meeting. All actions that led to the organization of the next meeting should be noted down and replicated for next next meetings. If on the other hand the evaluation indicated that the spread might have been different than 0 during that meeting, even if very small, even if with very little confidence, then that represents a big problem. It means that that particular meeting has contributed to further the spread, and has not contributed to halting the spread. That would be a very harsh option to accept, I think. Because one can be sure that if there is no in-person component of the hybrid IETF meeting then the spread due to IETF meeting is guaranteed to be 0 at 100% confidence. Alex > > thanks, john > > > > > From nobody Tue Dec 14 03:18:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F263A0AC2 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:18:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id noMscVHjJksr for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB5213A073E for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BEBIHXF015508 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:18:17 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 72AB1208998 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:18:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6958D20897B for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:18:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BEBIHKu003806 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:18:17 +0100 Message-ID: <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:18:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 11:18:25 -0000 The ISO TC/204 'ITS' (Intelligent Transport Systems) is extending the virtual-only characteristic of the meetings up to March 31st, 2022. Alex Le 25/11/2021 à 10:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > The "Brussels Motor Show" (Salon de l'Auto) is maintained for January > 2022 in Brussels.  This is a thousand-class attendance fair similar to MWC. > > The covid measures include a specific point about 'ventilation',     among > other measures such as QR codes and an interesting 'no test' service > (the organizers dont provide testing service). > > There is a context about auto Show announcements in the last 2 years > with many cancellations, maintaining, postponements and last minute > announcements.  Regular Motor shows are in Paris, Geneva and Denver. > > Alex > > Le 23/11/2021 à 13:30, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> Last minute cancellation of participation of digital equipment >> manufacturer to in-person fair in Amsterdam in two weeks time. (IBC >> about broadcasting). >> >> I am mentioning it because it is a first time I see a covid-based >> cancellation on such a short notice. >> >> Alex >> >> Le 19/11/2021 à 19:58, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> I learn now that Austria decides to go lockdown state to all, >>> irrespective of vaccinated or not or 'convalescent' or 'PCR test'. >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 19/11/2021 à 11:24, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>> With respect to Austria and optionality of the 'convalescence' >>>> criterion in addition to the 'vaccination': contrary to what I said >>>> earlier, I hear recently that the 'locked down' in Austria might be >>>> the non-vaccinated and the non-convalescents too (those who never >>>> met the virus).  Earlier I thought that only  the non-vaccinated >>>> where in 'lockdown' state. >>>> >>>> Also, I learn that in various countries in Europe the use of the EU >>>> cert with QR code, and their respective legislation advancements, is >>>> not homogeneous at all, despite a common European QR code format and >>>> EU cert.  Earlier I thought each country in Europe applied this >>>> unique EU Cert w/ QR code, precisely as all applied the vaccination >>>> conventions (4 vaccines, etc) and the treatment recommentations. >>>> But it is far from being so. >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 16/11/2021 à 19:48, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>> I browsed deeper in the IGF site advising the foreigners how to >>>>> travel into Poland. >>>>> >>>>> It refers to what in our discussion in SHMOO we call 'local' >>>>> legislation.  It is the gov.pl URL >>>>> https://www.gov.pl/web/coronavirus/outside-the-european-union-schengen-area-turkey >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are a few things thing that it fails to say.  But it is not >>>>> IGF or gov.pl fault, it is common in these times of rapidly >>>>> changing covid situation, and the use of language.  English is a >>>>> foreign language in Poland. >>>>> >>>>> When people say 'completed a full vaccination cycle' they mean two >>>>> doses of Pfizer or one doze of Johnson&Johnson vaccines, or >>>>> similar. (the gov.pl site says "they have completed a full >>>>> vaccination cycle".) >>>>> >>>>> Recently, that 2-dose pfizer or 1-dose J&J is no more a 'full >>>>> vaccination cycle'.  Not only the 3rd dose is almost mandatory to >>>>> many, but Johnson&Johnson requires a 2nd dose too, and preferably a >>>>> Pfizer or Moderna if possible.  These two things are a dramatic >>>>> change from what was said this summer about 'full vaccination >>>>> cycles'.  These days there are people who consider themselves >>>>> 'fully vaccinated' but have no 3rd dose even though the local >>>>> legislation requires that 3rd dose. >>>>> >>>>> In the future, I speculate that the term 'full vaccination cycle' >>>>> will not be used anymore.  I think another term might make more >>>>> sense, like 'vaccination up to date'. >>>>> >>>>> So, beware the language that says that people with a 'full >>>>> vaccination cycle' have this or that right of no-quarantine, or so. >>>>> >>>>> Finally, there is an additional thing worth noting.  The country >>>>> where the initial QR code certificates (Austria, I think) were >>>>> created, at the basis of the EU Digital Cert, is seemingly changing >>>>> stance these days. If up to now the 'recovery' (having got the >>>>> virus and then gotten better, with natural antibodies) was a valid >>>>> indicator allowing some rights at the same level as having been >>>>> vaccinated, there is a strong tendency in that same country now to >>>>> actually consider only the vaccinated (not the 'recovery' anymore) >>>>> to qualify for certain things. So, whenever the Polish gov't says >>>>> that 'recovery' is a useful criterion think  that that gov't might >>>>> change stance as we speak to follow the same model they followed >>>>> initially. >>>>> >>>>> (the gov.pl site says "they have recovered from a SARS-CoV-2 >>>>> infection (so-called “convalescents”)") >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> Le 15/11/2021 à 12:56, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 10/11/2021 à 15:53, Andrew Campling a écrit : >>>>>>> The Internet Governance Forum takes place in Katowice, Poland >>>>>>> next month and is planning to run a hybrid format – a total of >>>>>>> 3365 people are currently registered with 1879 indicating an >>>>>>> intention to attend in person, so 46% projected to be online. >>>>>>> Based on what the organisers have stated so far, this could >>>>>>> provide useful learning on hybrid meetings for IETF 113, >>>>>>> especially as I suspect a number of us will be attending so will >>>>>>> experience the event either virtually or in-person. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> During the recent shmoo WG online meeting a couple of persons said >>>>>> they'd go to IGF in Poland. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the meeting I was suggesting to look at various kinds of maps. >>>>>> Maps can give a rough idea about where things are situated with >>>>>> respect to one another, neighborhood, and much more. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maps about covid can be used to guide one's intention to go, how >>>>>> to go, how to protect, and more. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some of the the maps I meant are the following.  In the  left >>>>>> there is a map showing Poland in green several weeks ago.  In the >>>>>> right there is a map of Poland in red these days. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not trying to raise any alarm.  If I wanted to raise an alarm >>>>>> I could write directly to IGF organizers.  I suspect they already >>>>>> know all these things so there is no need to write them. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/situation-updates/weekly-maps-coordinated-restriction-free-movement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> *Andrew* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Manycouches mailing list >>>>>>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Manycouches mailing list >>>>>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Manycouches mailing list >>>>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Manycouches mailing list >>>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Dec 14 03:40:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788403A0AFB for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:40:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1nzrLaBfd1AG for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E31853A0AF3 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BEBec77026072 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:40:38 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D66C2089AD for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:40:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521C12089AB for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:40:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BEBecIg015314 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:40:38 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:40:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 11:40:47 -0000 A 2-day networking event towards building European project proposals is announced around February 18th, 2022, in Düsseldorf in Germany, for a few hundred people. The covid matters now are just these: > Health and safety are important to us. The necessary hygiene measures > will be in placeHealth and safety in connection with COVID-19 are > important to us. When designing the event, we have taken into account > all available information (political decisions, legal requirements, > hygiene regulations). We will comply with all legal requirements to > ensure a safe event. Le 14/12/2021 à 12:18, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > The ISO TC/204 'ITS' (Intelligent Transport Systems) is extending the > virtual-only characteristic of the meetings up to March 31st, 2022. > > Alex > > Le 25/11/2021 à 10:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> The "Brussels Motor Show" (Salon de l'Auto) is maintained for >> January 2022 in Brussels. This is a thousand-class attendance fair >> similar to MWC. >> >> The covid measures include a specific point about 'ventilation', >> among other measures such as QR codes and an interesting 'no test' >> service (the organizers dont provide testing service). >> >> There is a context about auto Show announcements in the last 2 >> years with many cancellations, maintaining, postponements and last >> minute announcements. Regular Motor shows are in Paris, Geneva and >> Denver. >> >> Alex >> >> Le 23/11/2021 à 13:30, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> Last minute cancellation of participation of digital equipment >>> manufacturer to in-person fair in Amsterdam in two weeks time. >>> (IBC about broadcasting). >>> >>> I am mentioning it because it is a first time I see a covid-based >>> cancellation on such a short notice. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Le 19/11/2021 à 19:58, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>> I learn now that Austria decides to go lockdown state to all, >>>> irrespective of vaccinated or not or 'convalescent' or 'PCR >>>> test'. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 19/11/2021 à 11:24, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>> With respect to Austria and optionality of the >>>>> 'convalescence' criterion in addition to the 'vaccination': >>>>> contrary to what I said earlier, I hear recently that the >>>>> 'locked down' in Austria might be the non-vaccinated and the >>>>> non-convalescents too (those who never met the virus). >>>>> Earlier I thought that only the non-vaccinated where in >>>>> 'lockdown' state. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I learn that in various countries in Europe the use of >>>>> the EU cert with QR code, and their respective legislation >>>>> advancements, is not homogeneous at all, despite a common >>>>> European QR code format and EU cert. Earlier I thought each >>>>> country in Europe applied this unique EU Cert w/ QR code, >>>>> precisely as all applied the vaccination conventions (4 >>>>> vaccines, etc) and the treatment recommentations. But it is >>>>> far from being so. >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 16/11/2021 à 19:48, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>>> I browsed deeper in the IGF site advising the foreigners >>>>>> how to travel into Poland. >>>>>> >>>>>> It refers to what in our discussion in SHMOO we call >>>>>> 'local' legislation. It is the gov.pl URL >>>>>> https://www.gov.pl/web/coronavirus/outside-the-european-union-schengen-area-turkey >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There are a few things thing that it fails to say. But it >>>>>> is not IGF or gov.pl fault, it is common in these times of >>>>>> rapidly changing covid situation, and the use of language. >>>>>> English is a foreign language in Poland. >>>>>> >>>>>> When people say 'completed a full vaccination cycle' they >>>>>> mean two doses of Pfizer or one doze of Johnson&Johnson >>>>>> vaccines, or similar. (the gov.pl site says "they have >>>>>> completed a full vaccination cycle".) >>>>>> >>>>>> Recently, that 2-dose pfizer or 1-dose J&J is no more a >>>>>> 'full vaccination cycle'. Not only the 3rd dose is almost >>>>>> mandatory to many, but Johnson&Johnson requires a 2nd dose >>>>>> too, and preferably a Pfizer or Moderna if possible. These >>>>>> two things are a dramatic change from what was said this >>>>>> summer about 'full vaccination cycles'. These days there >>>>>> are people who consider themselves 'fully vaccinated' but >>>>>> have no 3rd dose even though the local legislation requires >>>>>> that 3rd dose. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the future, I speculate that the term 'full vaccination >>>>>> cycle' will not be used anymore. I think another term >>>>>> might make more sense, like 'vaccination up to date'. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, beware the language that says that people with a 'full >>>>>> vaccination cycle' have this or that right of >>>>>> no-quarantine, or so. >>>>>> >>>>>> Finally, there is an additional thing worth noting. The >>>>>> country where the initial QR code certificates (Austria, I >>>>>> think) were created, at the basis of the EU Digital Cert, >>>>>> is seemingly changing stance these days. If up to now the >>>>>> 'recovery' (having got the virus and then gotten better, >>>>>> with natural antibodies) was a valid indicator allowing >>>>>> some rights at the same level as having been vaccinated, >>>>>> there is a strong tendency in that same country now to >>>>>> actually consider only the vaccinated (not the 'recovery' >>>>>> anymore) to qualify for certain things. So, whenever the >>>>>> Polish gov't says that 'recovery' is a useful criterion >>>>>> think that that gov't might change stance as we speak to >>>>>> follow the same model they followed initially. >>>>>> >>>>>> (the gov.pl site says "they have recovered from a >>>>>> SARS-CoV-2 infection (so-called “convalescents”)") >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 15/11/2021 à 12:56, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Le 10/11/2021 à 15:53, Andrew Campling a écrit : >>>>>>>> The Internet Governance Forum takes place in Katowice, >>>>>>>> Poland next month and is planning to run a hybrid >>>>>>>> format – a total of 3365 people are currently >>>>>>>> registered with 1879 indicating an intention to attend >>>>>>>> in person, so 46% projected to be online. Based on what >>>>>>>> the organisers have stated so far, this could provide >>>>>>>> useful learning on hybrid meetings for IETF 113, >>>>>>>> especially as I suspect a number of us will be >>>>>>>> attending so will experience the event either virtually >>>>>>>> or in-person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> During the recent shmoo WG online meeting a couple of >>>>>>> persons said they'd go to IGF in Poland. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the meeting I was suggesting to look at various kinds >>>>>>> of maps. Maps can give a rough idea about where things >>>>>>> are situated with respect to one another, neighborhood, >>>>>>> and much more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maps about covid can be used to guide one's intention to >>>>>>> go, how to go, how to protect, and more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some of the the maps I meant are the following. In the >>>>>>> left there is a map showing Poland in green several weeks >>>>>>> ago. In the right there is a map of Poland in red these >>>>>>> days. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not trying to raise any alarm. If I wanted to raise >>>>>>> an alarm I could write directly to IGF organizers. I >>>>>>> suspect they already know all these things so there is no >>>>>>> need to write them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/situation-updates/weekly-maps-coordinated-restriction-free-movement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Andrew* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >>>>>> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >>>>> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >>>> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >>> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >> >> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >> list Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Dec 14 11:38:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79773A081E for ; 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Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:38:36 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1639510716; bh=lGrburGYm0X2CsR7BFmOlhnSuszehwFAzrs3xz0XOXc=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=9vLAYNc+GxPcTj6I4/PhUO3VQhxSCCjSlM0zIC+dJss1usXRF+xiLZCvFtVn7ZtM0 pxgpGY22oXIK/kQGg/xvSkl+kKx/PI1YZoVfF96G65ASWHWA8+TLw3WrMtqrg5n62W ImNyIEdk9Q6Zrwru71Pb6YUYlpIdJrTcYZKJalsbRhx3R7Mous5LuVh4HLjEp+7kYu DNcuSco4lgvYnmq7EMm69UpTs6GXMdUMnKRi7rhbuzleRkTsacxwmdNu5AYHXk6Jgy qitg4McSmUlesW3CM0Bv94PqKFD+b3Kxm7aY/x58JEHx0O8xuoBOIDlv0SHV2u7lqb Jk89ZkOT6pXOQ== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.81]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id AOHZAbzyuGGRJAAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:38:36 +0100 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:38:35 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev31 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:38:47 -0000 > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu ha = scritto: >=20 > =20 > A 2-day networking event towards building European project proposals is > announced around February 18th, 2022, in D=C3=BCsseldorf in Germany, for = a > few hundred people. In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an announced numbe= r of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000 online (many of course co= nnected for just one session or so). We'll see in a few days if we get any = notice of post-IGF covid cases. --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Thu Dec 16 09:09:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D125E3A128C for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 09:09:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WqQMV5MFl0ag for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 09:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17B8B3A1287 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 09:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id bi37so50981802lfb.5 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 09:08:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=MKdH5c+OmXqHsOvUWFADrgjyiNedbUztb/K+Zn1p+Zo=; b=Wyeyxa5mfSmmYAPns3Z1bQGCv9+96ga1t3EITsQw1G4RE/yHYTyGkEOHCSk6Nw0olD IFA6DR6KagcLapfFnDhZAljoO3tYQaFF/qGLImkkY+JU437BXXRcl26d5W8gKaGxa0IQ F7CpJlPx6OLOJNo9DRpgtv3kp7cHTdhcY8UYRR8TU3Ma0Z5vd8XQeKrJ/qAqXctvcmuc fx6WbRqB04QJLQCQwYcwbNIYueD4vd+yXlKvtJWauvfxYukVZAqufbHocYT5TXC4aVjY ndo6+gw7gszyDdPYluCUkyfF3LW0B/+emZi5GdD1hQaELfMCE34EyzasOHsLIo6k/bDl IgsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MKdH5c+OmXqHsOvUWFADrgjyiNedbUztb/K+Zn1p+Zo=; b=txcv5ljSu0xHbfQo1D/1qd1g0T9Mnp8OYFAEry5NqJ1TKNgQ1mJj/ybsmlLTcRonDY rrNIq89LdUaE9XauNCVGZopE23SjX33XP8F2sqOzV/Cik3r16ECkevMjdP/ciFcDfB17 vE77B3irc5ckEytzibQZDvN1ahWTFtbx0r0iFr95Q5X2BMiBVJnJPFFH/QvJRjwrf+aN ykeZVKHPtKAiKIjCLaF1v0ts085vdxUd+ViIkLD08kjuKPk2hLNwEm18YMq58m0Gu1NY 6kvBp7YoiBXkSUtK3n0EQVhnro/xRtzn8mHHohKmiRADQGoXRfCdIkLwaUJ5MWcqhMB0 cUmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530J2Xb25iBuk8LISOYzrRi5MO+TLonizSCJNjD2AMzHMnBRF+Yq Y4NhausEXc4+91M9UjDg3+0ADv0Y3+Tm0fgJ68o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVKn0Lhxli3AV+YB4aPNxLUiMRfavM9TO9j9qe67V0xay9kbUqNYD8dxK7iZlItsaMGdnJMTvVd128BaRulP4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:68c:: with SMTP id t12mr15578796lfe.10.1639674537459; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 09:08:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:08:46 -0600 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a451005d3467a97" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:09:05 -0000 --0000000000005a451005d3467a97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold its March Plenary online. Behcet On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu > ha scritto: > > > > > > A 2-day networking event towards building European project proposals is > > announced around February 18th, 2022, in D=C3=BCsseldorf in Germany, fo= r a > > few hundred people. > > In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an announced > number of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000 online (many of > course connected for just one session or so). We'll see in a few days if = we > get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. > > -- > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --0000000000005a451005d3467a97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Today, it came to my attention = that IEEE 802 decided to hold its March Plenary online.

Behcet

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola <vitt= orio.bertola=3D40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


> Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>= ha scritto:
>
>=C2=A0
> A 2-day networking event towards building European project proposals i= s
> announced around February 18th, 2022, in D=C3=BCsseldorf in Germany, f= or a
> few hundred people.

In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an announced numbe= r of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000 online (many of cours= e connected for just one session or so). We'll see in a few days if we = get any notice of post-IGF covid cases.

--
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vitt= orio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--0000000000005a451005d3467a97-- From nobody Mon Dec 20 12:38:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298423A0787 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 12:38:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LZXkblEOQKOW for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 12:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3544B3A0793 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 12:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BKKcEad048127; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:38:14 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 215F120A2FF; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:38:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11FD520A0EA; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:38:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.69] ([10.14.0.69]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BKKcDhB030139; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0100 Message-ID: <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: sarikaya@ieee.org, Vittorio Bertola Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 20:38:24 -0000 Davos in January is postponed. WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. (EuroNews, a news channel) Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : > Hi all, > > Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold its March > Plenary online. > > Behcet > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola > > wrote: > > > > > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu > > > ha scritto: > > > > > > A 2-day networking event towards building European project > proposals is > > announced around February 18th, 2022, in Düsseldorf in Germany, for a > > few hundred people. > > In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an > announced number of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000 > online (many of course connected for just one session or so). We'll > see in a few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. > > -- > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:01:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92463A0CBB for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:01:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.18 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.18 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0wNKosuO2OL3 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC35E3A0C29 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BME1MAn025793 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:01:22 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D1766203D08 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:01:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5561203BB2 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:01:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.1.159] ([10.14.1.159]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BME1MPH011453 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:01:22 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------r0GLaFXRMp8kg0BuXBH3RIzN" Message-ID: <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:01:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:01:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------r0GLaFXRMp8kg0BuXBH3RIzN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, The Netherlands is now shifted to June. Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > Davos in January is postponed. > > WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. > > (EuroNews, a news channel) > > Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : >> Hi all, >> >> Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold its >> March Plenary online. >> >> Behcet >> >> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >>      > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu >>     > >>     ha scritto: >>      > >>      > >>      > A 2-day networking event towards building European project >>     proposals is >>      > announced around February 18th, 2022, in Düsseldorf in >> Germany, for a >>      > few hundred people. >> >>     In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an >>     announced number of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000 >>     online (many of course connected for just one session or so). We'll >>     see in a few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. >> >>     --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange >> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >> >>     Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy >> >>     _______________________________________________ >>     Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------r0GLaFXRMp8kg0BuXBH3RIzN Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, The Netherlands is now shifted to June.

Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
Davos in January is postponed.

WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic.

(EuroNews, a news channel)

Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit :
Hi all,

Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold its March Plenary online.

Behcet

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola <
vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



     > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu
    <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
    ha scritto:
     >
     >
     > A 2-day networking event towards building European project
    proposals is
     > announced around February 18th, 2022, in Düsseldorf in Germany, for a
     > few hundred people.

    In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an
    announced number of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000
    online (many of course connected for just one session or so). We'll
    see in a few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases.

    --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
    vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
    <mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
    Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

    _______________________________________________
    Manycouches mailing list
    Manycouches@ietf.org <mailto:Manycouches@ietf.org>
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
    <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches>


_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--------------r0GLaFXRMp8kg0BuXBH3RIzN-- From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:23:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312BE3A0D29 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:23:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cs29J8Hw-L3C for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F053A0D24 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n02W7-00025C-PE; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:22:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:22:50 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:23:03 -0000 And all ISO meetings through the end of March will either be online or postponed. "Our" decision has been made and we are going ahead with IETF 113 as hybrid in March (and, for the reason Jay indicated, without community consultation). Presumably, that will change only if some catastrophic external event, such as Austria going back into lockdown, occurs and not because of, e.g., speculation on this list. =20 So I wonder if continuing the updates in this thread is worthwhile, at least before we start talking seriously about IETF 114. best, john --On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 15:01 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, > The Netherlands is now shifted to June. >=20 > Le 20/12/2021 =C3=A0 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a = =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: >> Davos in January is postponed. >>=20 >> WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. >>=20 >> (EuroNews, a news channel) >>=20 >> Le 16/12/2021 =C3=A0 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a = =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: >>> Hi all, >>>=20 >>> Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold >>> its March Plenary online. >>>=20 >>> Behcet >>>=20 >>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola=20 >>> >> > wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre = Petrescu >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >> > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ha = scritto: >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > A 2-day networking event towards = building >>> European project =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 proposals is >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > announced around February 18th, = 2022, in >>> D=C3=BCsseldorf in Germany, for a >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > few hundred people. >>>=20 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed = last week >>> with an =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 announced number of 2700 = in-person >>> participants and about 10'000 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 online = (many of course >>> connected for just one session or so). We'll = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 see in a >>> few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. >>>=20 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Vittorio Bertola | = Head of Policy & >>> Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, = Italy >>>=20 >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = _______________________________________________ >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:35:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BA53A0D78 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:35:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e0JXWUq6tO88 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE6D13A0D7C for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEYsXU035625; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:34:54 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id BEF4B203D8D; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:34:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14212039E0; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:34:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.2.40] ([10.14.2.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEYrXn029302; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:34:54 +0100 Message-ID: <20b08971-16d5-e32a-dd67-9d56729c4d3e@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:34:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: John C Klensin , manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:35:02 -0000 Le 22/12/2021 à 15:22, John C Klensin a écrit : > And all ISO meetings through the end of March will either be > online or postponed. > > "Our" decision has been made and we are going ahead with IETF > 113 as hybrid in March I complain!  I dont want to be part of it. Alex > (and, for the reason Jay indicated, > without community consultation). Presumably, that will change > only if some catastrophic external event, such as Austria going > back into lockdown, occurs and not because of, e.g., speculation > on this list. > > So I wonder if continuing the updates in this thread is > worthwhile, at least before we start talking seriously about > IETF 114. > > best, > john > > > --On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 15:01 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: > >> ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, >> The Netherlands is now shifted to June. >> >> Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> Davos in January is postponed. >>> >>> WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. >>> >>> (EuroNews, a news channel) >>> >>> Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold >>>> its March Plenary online. >>>> >>>> Behcet >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>      > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu >>>>     >>> >     ha scritto: >>>>      > >>>>      > >>>>      > A 2-day networking event towards building >>>> European project     proposals is >>>>      > announced around February 18th, 2022, in >>>> Düsseldorf in Germany, for a >>>>      > few hundred people. >>>> >>>>     In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week >>>> with an     announced number of 2700 in-person >>>> participants and about 10'000     online (many of course >>>> connected for just one session or so). We'll     see in a >>>> few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. >>>> >>>>     --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & >>>> Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >>>> >>>>     Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy >>>> >>>>     _______________________________________________ >>>>     Manycouches mailing list >>>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:42:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB92D3A0D96 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.18 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.18 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NYyF5_fO4qWD for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E32F3A0D81 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEfvsR037605; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:41:57 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 750DE2038E3; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:41:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651DA201937; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:41:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.2.40] ([10.14.2.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEfuMH000378; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:41:57 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ziZFsVs3p1g0p2RrFGBUAcoe" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:41:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: John C Klensin , manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:42:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ziZFsVs3p1g0p2RrFGBUAcoe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think people dont understand the matters. Austria is proposing mandatory vaccination on Feb. 2nd.  If it happens, it will be a first in world.  It might not happen because groups are already organizing to make it not work. If it happens, then what does it mean to visitors of Austria? It seems to me that the organisers either dont admit the magnitude of the matter, or they think they want to plan something that they want to unplan later anyways.  Consciously. Or maybe I am all wrong, and this omicron is an expression of actually getting out of the pandemics entirely soon. All these are possibilities. Alex Le 22/12/2021 à 15:22, John C Klensin a écrit : > And all ISO meetings through the end of March will either be > online or postponed. > > "Our" decision has been made and we are going ahead with IETF > 113 as hybrid in March (and, for the reason Jay indicated, > without community consultation). Presumably, that will change > only if some catastrophic external event, such as Austria going > back into lockdown, occurs and not because of, e.g., speculation > on this list. > > So I wonder if continuing the updates in this thread is > worthwhile, at least before we start talking seriously about > IETF 114. > > best, > john > > > --On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 15:01 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: > >> ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, >> The Netherlands is now shifted to June. >> >> Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> Davos in January is postponed. >>> >>> WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. >>> >>> (EuroNews, a news channel) >>> >>> Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold >>>> its March Plenary online. >>>> >>>> Behcet >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>      > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu >>>>     >>> >     ha scritto: >>>>      > >>>>      > >>>>      > A 2-day networking event towards building >>>> European project     proposals is >>>>      > announced around February 18th, 2022, in >>>> Düsseldorf in Germany, for a >>>>      > few hundred people. >>>> >>>>     In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week >>>> with an     announced number of 2700 in-person >>>> participants and about 10'000     online (many of course >>>> connected for just one session or so). We'll     see in a >>>> few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. >>>> >>>>     --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & >>>> Innovation, Open-Xchangevittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >>>> >>>>     Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy >>>> >>>>     _______________________________________________ >>>>     Manycouches mailing list >>>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --------------ziZFsVs3p1g0p2RrFGBUAcoe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I think people dont understand the matters.


Austria is proposing mandatory vaccination on Feb. 2nd.  If it happens, it will be a first in world.  It might not happen because groups are already organizing to make it not work.

If it happens, then what does it mean to visitors of Austria?

It seems to me that the organisers either dont admit the magnitude of the matter, or they think they want to plan something that they want to unplan later anyways.  Consciously.

Or maybe I am all wrong, and this omicron is an expression of actually getting out of the pandemics entirely soon.


All these are possibilities.


Alex

Le 22/12/2021 à 15:22, John C Klensin a écrit :
And all ISO meetings through the end of March will either be
online or postponed.

"Our" decision has been made and we are going ahead with IETF
113 as hybrid in March (and, for the reason Jay indicated,
without community consultation).  Presumably, that will change
only if some catastrophic external event, such as Austria going
back into lockdown, occurs and not because of, e.g., speculation
on this list.   

So I wonder if continuing the updates in this thread is
worthwhile, at least before we start talking seriously about
IETF 114.

best,
   john


--On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 15:01 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam,
The Netherlands is now shifted to June.

Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
Davos in January is postponed.

WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic.

(EuroNews, a news channel)

Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit :
Hi all,

Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold
its  March Plenary online.

Behcet

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola 
<vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org 
<mailto:40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



     > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu
    <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com
<mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>     ha scritto:
     >
     >
     > A 2-day networking event towards building
European project     proposals is
     > announced around February 18th, 2022, in
Düsseldorf in  Germany, for a
     > few hundred people.

    In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week
with an     announced number of 2700 in-person
participants and about 10'000     online (many of course
connected for just one session or so). We'll     see in a
few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases.

    --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy &
Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
<mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
    Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

    _______________________________________________
    Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org <mailto:Manycouches@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches>

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

--------------ziZFsVs3p1g0p2RrFGBUAcoe-- From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:43:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B24F3A0D9F for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:43:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.18 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.18 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJAp376r0WAP for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41A5C3A0D98 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEhgCQ030373 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:43:42 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C4FAF203E27 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:43:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98B1203D8D for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:43:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.2.40] ([10.14.2.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEheqH001316 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:43:41 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------mllvCROKIpLXZMeDcDZDplMv" Message-ID: <331e85eb-30cf-de95-a488-6d448f335249@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:43:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:43:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------mllvCROKIpLXZMeDcDZDplMv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the interesting thing about ERF is that it was announced ok just a few days ago, and now it is announced postponed. It is fast. Le 22/12/2021 à 15:01, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, The > Netherlands is now shifted to June. > > Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> Davos in January is postponed. >> >> WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. >> >> (EuroNews, a news channel) >> >> Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold its >>> March Plenary online. >>> >>> Behcet >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>      > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu >>>     >> > >>>     ha scritto: >>>      > >>>      > >>>      > A 2-day networking event towards building European project >>>     proposals is >>>      > announced around February 18th, 2022, in Düsseldorf in >>> Germany, for a >>>      > few hundred people. >>> >>>     In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an >>>     announced number of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000 >>>     online (many of course connected for just one session or so). We'll >>>     see in a few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases. >>> >>>     --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange >>> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >>> >>>     Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy >>> >>>     _______________________________________________ >>>     Manycouches mailing list >>> Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------mllvCROKIpLXZMeDcDZDplMv Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

the interesting thing about ERF is that it was announced ok just a few days ago, and now it is announced postponed.

It is fast.

Le 22/12/2021 à 15:01, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :

ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, The Netherlands is now shifted to June.

Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
Davos in January is postponed.

WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic.

(EuroNews, a news channel)

Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit :
Hi all,

Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold its March Plenary online.

Behcet

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



     > Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu
    <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
    ha scritto:
     >
     >
     > A 2-day networking event towards building European project
    proposals is
     > announced around February 18th, 2022, in Düsseldorf in Germany, for a
     > few hundred people.

    In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an
    announced number of 2700 in-person participants and about 10'000
    online (many of course connected for just one session or so). We'll
    see in a few days if we get any notice of post-IGF covid cases.

    --     Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
    vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
    <mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
    Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

    _______________________________________________
    Manycouches mailing list
    Manycouches@ietf.org <mailto:Manycouches@ietf.org>
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
    <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches>


_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--------------mllvCROKIpLXZMeDcDZDplMv-- From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:44:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A51B3A0DA2 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:44:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.672 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.672 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Ax0iMIyXIzy for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EC933A0D9F for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEiNcN030559 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:44:23 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EDD4E203D8D for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:44:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24E02039D3 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:44:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.2.40] ([10.14.2.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEiMac001612 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:44:22 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Th09Jt470PyOd612CNnvqWBB" Message-ID: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:44:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 References: Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Fwd: IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:44:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------Th09Jt470PyOd612CNnvqWBB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit fyi I have not read it completely -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet : IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria Date : Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:41:52 +1300 De : IETF Executive Director Répondre à : admin-discuss@ietf.org Pour : IETF Announcement List IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok, Thailand. # Decision making In making this decision the IETF Administration LLC has carefully considered the current circumstances, the desire of the community and the guidance of the IESG to answer a series of questions: 1. Is it possible to hold an international onsite meeting? We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, as has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided that sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has clear and workable rules. Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the country and conferences and restaurants. Clearly, the omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are responding to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However, we are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently managed by the time of the meeting that it can go ahead. 2. Is it safe to hold an international onsite meeting? We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international meeting. COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the mitigations and precautions are well understood and practised. Austria in particular has strict rules regarding entry to the country and in-country movement, excellent access to tests and strict controls on the unvaccinated. A strong majority of IETF participants reside in countries with easy access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people will not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the meeting, and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of unvaccinated people should not be considered discriminatory. The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not travel", but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting volunteers are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to take the risk. 3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the experience be for both those onsite and those online? The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of a normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be certain that this number will wish to participate onsite but we are willing to take the risk. This will not be a normal onsite meetings, it will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting with changes made so that any disadvantage to those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is planning a shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and new technology is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more integrated session experience. We believe that the financial risk is acceptable. The contract has a strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong cancel-and-rebook clause. 4. is it the right thing to do? Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that the risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting this is the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will inevitably take multiple steps and this is the first of those. We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision given the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is required to participate in person (that includes staff, contractors and supporting volunteers), nor should any participants feel pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are finding the correct balance between personal choice, personal safety and meeting experience. The formal assessment is https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than 14 weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency situation under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without community consultation. # Registrations Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we will provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our onsite COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed decision. Registration fees will be the same for onsite participation as they have been previously. If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then please either reply to admin-discuss@ietf.org or directly to me at exec-director@ietf.org Jay -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --------------Th09Jt470PyOd612CNnvqWBB Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

fyi

I have not read it completely



-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet : IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria
Date : Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:41:52 +1300
De : IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org>
Répondre à : admin-discuss@ietf.org
Pour : IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>


IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok, Thailand.


# Decision making

In making this decision the IETF Administration LLC has carefully considered the current circumstances, the desire of the community and the guidance of the IESG to answer a series of questions:

1. Is it possible to hold an international onsite meeting?

We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, as has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided that sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has clear and workable rules. Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the country and conferences and restaurants.
Clearly, the omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are responding to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However, we are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently managed by the time of the meeting that it can go ahead.


2. Is it safe to hold an international onsite meeting?

We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international meeting. COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the mitigations and precautions are well understood and practised. Austria in particular has strict rules regarding entry to the country and in-country movement, excellent access to tests and strict controls on the unvaccinated.

A strong majority of IETF participants reside in countries with easy access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people will not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the meeting, and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of unvaccinated people should not be considered discriminatory.

The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not travel", but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting volunteers are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to take the risk.


3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the experience be for both those onsite and those online?

The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of a normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be certain that this number will wish to participate onsite but we are willing to take the risk.

This will not be a normal onsite meetings, it will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting with changes made so that any disadvantage to those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is planning a shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and new technology is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more integrated session experience.

We believe that the financial risk is acceptable. The contract has a strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong cancel-and-rebook clause.

4. is it the right thing to do?

Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that the risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting this is the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will inevitably take multiple steps and this is the first of those.

We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision given the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is required to participate in person (that includes staff, contractors and supporting volunteers), nor should any participants feel pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are finding the correct balance between personal choice, personal safety and meeting experience.

The formal assessment is https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf

Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than 14 weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency situation under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without community consultation.


# Registrations

Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we will provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our onsite COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed decision. Registration fees will be the same for onsite participation as they have been previously.


If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then please either reply to admin-discuss@ietf.org or directly to me at exec-director@ietf.org

Jay


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
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Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:54:40 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:54:40 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <254424220.21178.1640184880701@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_21176_1062845595.1640184880687" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:54:48 -0000 ------=_Part_21176_1062845595.1640184880687 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 22/12/2021 15:41 Alexandre Petrescu ha scritto: > > > > I think people dont understand the matters. > > > > Austria is proposing mandatory vaccination on Feb. 2nd. If it happens, it will be a first in world. It might not happen because groups are already organizing to make it not work. > > If it happens, then what does it mean to visitors of Austria? > The announcement acknowledges that unvaccinated people will almost certainly not be able to participate in person, as they will not be allowed into the country and/or into the conference centre by Austrian laws, and that the IESG has decided that this is ok, as they can just participate remotely (like many vaccinated people will also do anyway). -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_21176_1062845595.1640184880687 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 22/12/2021 15:41 Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> ha scritto:


I think people dont understand the matters.


Austria is proposing mandatory vaccination on Feb. 2nd.  If it happens, it will be a first in world.  It might not happen because groups are already organizing to make it not work.

If it happens, then what does it mean to visitors of Austria?

The announcement acknowledges that unvaccinated people will almost certainly not be able to participate in person, as they will not be allowed into the country and/or into the conference centre by Austrian laws, and that the IESG has decided that this is ok, as they can just participate remotely (like many vaccinated people will also do anyway).

--

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_21176_1062845595.1640184880687-- From nobody Wed Dec 22 06:56:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11113A012C for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o60JV2o1EH4i for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B6B13A012B for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEttp6041172; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:55:55 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 67F0F203E28; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:55:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAAC203D00; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:55:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.2.40] ([10.14.2.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMEtsc6007371; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:55:55 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:55:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: John C Klensin , manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:56:02 -0000 Le 22/12/2021 à 15:22, John C Klensin a écrit : > And all ISO meetings through the end of March will either be online > or postponed. > > "Our" decision has been made and we are going ahead with IETF 113 as > hybrid in March (and, for the reason Jay indicated, without community > consultation). Presumably, that will change only if some > catastrophic external event, such as Austria going back into > lockdown, occurs and not because of, e.g., speculation on this list. > > So I wonder if continuing the updates in this thread is worthwhile, > at least before we start talking seriously about IETF 114. I agree with you. I think this thread is not worthwhile. But I think the thread was active before this IETF and gave nothing, and so I suspect it will not be worthwhile in the Summer either. Moreover, I think more and more, that the discussion here in the WG altogether is not useful and not taken into account. The fact that we look at what others are doing is required in a certain I-D, I think in that 'cancellation' I-D; and in some rules of decision making, whos place I forgot. I think it is said that it is good to look at what others are doing in order to make decisions about IETF meetings. Further, I think that any meeting that is hybrid, and that has an 'in-person' part, must tell precisely how that in-person part is happening, in order to design the hybridness of it. If these things 'in-person' and 'what others are doing' are not considered, I think there is no reason to discuss this anyways. On another hand, there is a possibility to consider that these things are worth for any planning. It is also possible that too many emails constitute a heavy load to certain inboxes. It is possible that the users of these inboxes still have to discover new tools of managing emails. It is also possible that even then, the information overload, the real heavy weight of apparently simple to use technology, is what impairs us (myself first) in trying to better see further. Maybe another more interesting subject should be developped. Alex > > best, john > > > --On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 15:01 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: > >> ERF Robotics initially planned for end of March in Rotterdam, The >> Netherlands is now shifted to June. >> >> Le 20/12/2021 à 21:38, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> Davos in January is postponed. >>> >>> WHO head wishes 2022 to make end of the pandemic. >>> >>> (EuroNews, a news channel) >>> >>> Le 16/12/2021 à 18:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Today, it came to my attention that IEEE 802 decided to hold >>>> its March Plenary online. >>>> >>>> Behcet >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 1:38 PM Vittorio Bertola >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Il 14/12/2021 12:40 Alexandre Petrescu >>>> >>> > ha scritto: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A 2-day networking event towards building >>>> European project proposals is >>>>> announced around February 18th, 2022, in >>>> Düsseldorf in Germany, for a >>>>> few hundred people. >>>> >>>> In the meantime, the IGF in Poland closed last week with an >>>> announced number of 2700 in-person participants and about >>>> 10'000 online (many of course connected for just one >>>> session or so). We'll see in a few days if we get any >>>> notice of post-IGF covid cases. >>>> >>>> -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, >>>> Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >>>> Office @ Via Treviso >>>> 12, 10144 Torino, Italy >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >>>> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >>> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > From nobody Wed Dec 22 08:44:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593083A0986 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 08:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E16gwVNa35Py for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 08:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0D0F3A096C for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 08:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMGiEpt004505 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:44:14 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 489C7203CE5 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:44:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6CE2008CD for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:44:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.2.40] ([10.14.2.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMGiDHb019647 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:44:13 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1EEAouMCtGvgNHcZKB1zgAkv" Message-ID: <004e2c97-cac4-3872-e9c2-715c97a7c4d2@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:44:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Austria reasoning Re: Fwd: IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 16:44:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1EEAouMCtGvgNHcZKB1zgAkv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I stand corrected if someone from Austria thinks differently. But this is what I think now: Austria and IETF in March is a complete unknown. One can look at the form of the wave in Austria and maybe expect a relative high in March, or not, because things change. See attached. End of November it was good to plan for an in-person meeting in Austria by mid-December because that was the plan for getting out of lockdown, at that time. By mid-December I learned that the situation varies in Austria: Vienna, cities and regions have different lockdown states and prolongation. Then I thought it would not be good to plan an in-person meeting in Austria before January. I also learned that Austria has this plan of mandatory vaccinaiton (not just for specific crafts such as nursery or army, but more universal, but still depending on age). The deadline of starting such thing was for beginning of February. Then I thought that would be the first in the world that a country makes such a mandate of vaccination. Maybe Israel too, but that is special because of their special ongoing war state of mind, prior to covid anyways. In Israel they know what it means to 'lockdown' more than anybody else; for example in some country there is not even a word to express this 'lockdown' state, so they use the english word. COmparing that countryùs understanding of 'lockdown' to ISrael's understanding of same word is miles apart. Then it was said that it is not sure that Austria's Feb. 1st vaccination mandate would work, because many oppose it. That means many groups, political as well as in the street, with manifestations ('meeting'). These manifestations are rare now, but a growing event in some countries. They manifestate agaiinst covid overall, as if that would scare the virus. There are specific requests, but it is hard to tell who could implement, or whose fault is. Also, at political level Austria goes through leadership change because of apparent corruption aspects, doubly said. Then omicron arrived seriously. Still people say that omicron does not change the current vaccination plan: every 4 months or so a dose of Pfizer. But still omicron might change the plan because the so-called vaccine is not really adapted to it. Maybe soon it will be admitted that the vaccination plan must change. Or maybe not. Omicron might change all that: for the better or for the worse. For the worse it might change it in that it could create bigger, more and longer lockdwons everywhere, not just Austria. Because lockdowns is the only thing proven to work. For the better, omicron might change covid pandemics if it proves to 'kill' delta and at the same time not send people to hospital. It might be a 'saviour'. Or that might be just an illusion of these days. A paper I read suggests that UK experience in omicron is that omicron is not worse but not better than delta either, with respect to sending people to hospital. That paper says they cant say more and more data i.e. more time is needed to think. Bill Gates and WHO head said in Decemner they hope 2022 ends the pandemics, or that we have to make it end in 2022, or something like that. It's a sort of wish to tell others during New YEar's Eve. Earlier Bill Gates also said 640k was enough for all and WHO also said at some point that frontiers should not close. So it is not sure what to trust. That is what I think about Austria and IETF in March - a complete unknown. Alex Le 22/12/2021 à 15:44, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > fyi > > I have not read it completely > > > > -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet : IETF 113 will be a > hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria Date : Wed, 22 Dec > 2021 14:41:52 +1300 De : IETF Executive Director > Répondre à : admin-discuss@ietf.org Pour : > IETF Announcement List > > > > IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the > onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from > 19-25 March 2022. This is a location change from the originally > planned Bangkok, Thailand. > > > # Decision making > > In making this decision the IETF Administration LLC has carefully > considered the current circumstances, the desire of the community > and the guidance of the IESG to answer a series of questions: > > 1. Is it possible to hold an international onsite meeting? > > We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, > as has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided > that sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has > clear and workable rules. Austria has clear and workable rules for > entry into the country and conferences and restaurants. Clearly, the > omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are > responding to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However, > we are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently > managed by the time of the meeting that it can go ahead. > > > 2. Is it safe to hold an international onsite meeting? > > We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international > meeting. COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the > mitigations and precautions are well understood and practised. > Austria in particular has strict rules regarding entry to the > country and in-country movement, excellent access to tests and > strict controls on the unvaccinated. > > A strong majority of IETF participants reside in countries with easy > access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people > will not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the > meeting, and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of > unvaccinated people should not be considered discriminatory. > > The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not > travel", but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting > volunteers are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to > take the risk. > > > 3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the > experience be for both those onsite and those online? > > The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of > a normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be > certain that this number will wish to participate onsite but we are > willing to take the risk. > > This will not be a normal onsite meetings, it will be a hybrid > onsite/online meeting with changes made so that any disadvantage to > those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is > planning a shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and > new technology is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more > integrated session experience. > > We believe that the financial risk is acceptable. The contract has a > strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong > cancel-and-rebook clause. > > 4. is it the right thing to do? > > Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that > the risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting > this is the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will > inevitably take multiple steps and this is the first of those. > > We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision > given the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is > required to participate in person (that includes staff, contractors > and supporting volunteers), nor should any participants feel > pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are finding the correct > balance between personal choice, personal safety and meeting > experience. > > The formal assessment is > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf > > > Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than > 14 weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency > situation under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without > community consultation. > > > # Registrations > > Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the > registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we > will provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our > onsite COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed > decision. Registration fees will be the same for onsite > participation as they have been previously. > > > If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then > please either reply to admin-discuss@ietf.org or directly to me at > exec-director@ietf.org > > Jay > > > -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce > mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------1EEAouMCtGvgNHcZKB1zgAkv Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Capture.JPG" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Capture.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAeAB4AAD/4REERXhpZgAATU0AKgAAAAgABAE7AAIAAAATAAAISodp AAQAAAABAAAIXpydAAEAAAAmAAAQ1uocAAcAAAgMAAAAPgAAAAAc6gAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMKTLX9011147 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:29:21 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 80A00203A88 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:29:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7729C2038BA for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:29:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.15] ([10.14.0.15]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMKTKBc009725 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:29:21 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:29:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Fwd: IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:29:29 -0000 Le 22/12/2021 à 15:44, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > fyi > > I have not read it completely > > > > -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet : IETF 113 will be a > hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria Date : Wed, 22 Dec > 2021 14:41:52 +1300 De : IETF Executive Director > Répondre à : admin-discuss@ietf.org Pour : > IETF Announcement List > Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the country and > conferences and restaurants. I think either one is not knowing what one is talking about, or one is risked into being 'fooled'(?) by some information, or maybe we live in different metaverses where there is Austria and Austria :-) If that were true: Austria has clear rules ok which stop the thing,e tc, do you think other country would not do the same at a moment notice? Austria came up with these QR codes a few months ago. Everyone replicated. Now it's being challenged: too many conditions 3, there should be just one, but which one? It is under discussion. We dont know what it will give. We already thought in the recent past that the Austria covid rules were better than others, but it was not that way, unfortunately. [...] > However as nobody is required to participate in person (that includes > staff, contractors and supporting volunteers), nor should any > participants feel pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are > finding the correct balance between personal choice, personal safety > and meeting experience. I think this is so old thinking, pre-covid times. In these pre-covid times we did not know how much inter-related are we one to another. We imagined that a person in Austria would have no impact to a person in Kansas, or that a person in Wuhan would not impact me in France. Yet, and yet, and still, I must worry now once every 4 months if I feel a fever - is it a side effect of vaccine or is it the virus? That is the effect of a person there to me here. But now we know. In the old pre-covid times we thought that if someone could not join the in-person meeting there would be no problem, and that person could join online. This old way of thinking is prolongated, wrongly. The new way of thinking, during covid times, should be this: if a person cant join online then her travel should be paid to the nearest other place online and the price of the masks and separating plexiglass. Moreover, in these pre-covid times, because of the two aspects mentioned above, I wonder this to myself: should I participate online to an IETF meeting which has an in-person part whose covid rules are delegated to an unknown authority? Remember, a person in Austria spreading to anoother person in Austria also impacts me, even if I am online in another country. What are the detail Austria rules about covid-times meetings? Do they consider ventilation? I will not use the word 'caution' (should I 'caution' this with my participation)? Because I am not sure of the word 'caution'. But I am almost sure I want to reduce to a minimum the number of physical interactions to others. That includes minimum things absolutely necessary for immediate well being. This is why, for me, at this time, I think I might not participate to the next IETF meeting eve if online, and even if paid: I dont want to participate into something that risks to propagate the virus. There is no guarantee whatsoever. Alex > > The formal assessment is > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf > > > > > > Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than > 14 weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency > situation under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without > community consultation. > > > # Registrations > > Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the > registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we will > provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our onsite > COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed decision. > Registration fees will be the same for onsite participation as they > have been previously. > > > If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then please > either reply to admin-discuss@ietf.org or directly to me at > exec-director@ietf.org > > Jay > > > -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing > list IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Wed Dec 22 12:34:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A58A3A0B82 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:34:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oW-xrTBsQVzY for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82E0C3A0B80 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMKYnjH014191; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:34:49 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B0079206E25; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:34:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F34206E18; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:34:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.15] ([10.14.0.15]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMKYnOT010709; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:34:49 +0100 Message-ID: <3a94907c-e104-ffaf-07bf-b0e2ecf5a88e@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:34:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: Vittorio Bertola , manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> <254424220.21178.1640184880701@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <254424220.21178.1640184880701@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:34:58 -0000 I agree with many of your posts. Here I must make a remark. IT is a reply to you, but I know that this is also an oppinion of others, so I take advantage to actually reply to the oppinion. Le 22/12/2021 à 15:54, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > >> Il 22/12/2021 15:41 Alexandre Petrescu >> ha scritto: >> >> >> I think people dont understand the matters. >> >> >> Austria is proposing mandatory vaccination on Feb. 2nd.  If it >> happens, it will be a first in world.  It might not happen because >> groups are already organizing to make it not work. >> >> If it happens, then what does it mean to visitors of Austria? >> > The announcement acknowledges that unvaccinated people will almost > certainly not be able to participate in person, as they will not be > allowed into the country and/or into the conference centre by Austrian > laws, and that the IESG has decided that this is ok, as they can just > participate remotely (like many vaccinated people will also do anyway). As if we all are experts of Austrian rules and laws now, or that we have time to become such experts soon, before planning a trip. As if Austria laws and rules of covid are so successful that they are a secret that no other country could replicate. Again: we are all interrelated, and it is not like the answer is in a single one place. What people do here impact what others do there. Especially during these covid times. Alex > > -- > > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > From nobody Wed Dec 22 13:10:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841353A0C38 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:10:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LgNPNxLkM2HB for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B4DC3A0C33 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMLAQE0017123 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:10:26 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A18E0206EE4 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:10:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977A4204A72 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:10:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.40] ([10.14.0.40]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BMLAQVm015677 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:10:26 +0100 Message-ID: <1a32c0d1-2ada-b6d1-d8f6-9106f24db905@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:10:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr From: Alexandre Petrescu To: "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] IGF experience Re: Fwd: IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:10:34 -0000 I think there is a need of advice from a scientific panel about this, but this is what I think. I went firsthand through this experience so I can talk about it. > > -------- Message transféré -------- > Sujet : IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria > Date : Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:41:52 +1300 > De : IETF Executive Director > Répondre à : admin-discuss@ietf.org > Pour : IETF Announcement List > [...] > We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, as > has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided that > sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has clear and > workable rules. Has the virus spread at IGF? It is not possible to state that confidently right now, because of the following: - all should have been tested on arrival and at departure. I understand testing was available under voluntary conditions, not mandatory, at IGF. - the last test (at departure) is actually a double test: one at time X and one at 7 days later. Only the combined result of the two tells whether or not there is positivity. I think none of these conditions are satisfied for IGF. Or maybe is there a statement from IGF that the virus was not spread? As such, I think the above assumptions of sensible precautions at IGF are simply not trustable. Alex Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the > country and conferences and restaurants. > Clearly, the omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are > responding to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However, we > are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently managed by > the time of the meeting that it can go ahead. > > > 2. Is it safe to hold an international onsite meeting? > > We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international meeting. > COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the mitigations and > precautions are well understood and practised. Austria in particular has > strict rules regarding entry to the country and in-country movement, > excellent access to tests and strict controls on the unvaccinated. > > A strong majority of IETF participants reside in countries with easy > access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people will > not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the meeting, > and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of unvaccinated people > should not be considered discriminatory. > > The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not travel", > but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting volunteers > are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to take the risk. > > > 3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the experience > be for both those onsite and those online? > > The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of a > normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be > certain that this number will wish to participate onsite but we are > willing to take the risk. > > This will not be a normal onsite meetings, it will be a hybrid > onsite/online meeting with changes made so that any disadvantage to > those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is planning a > shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and new technology > is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more integrated session > experience. > > We believe that the financial risk is acceptable. The contract has a > strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong cancel-and-rebook > clause. > > 4. is it the right thing to do? > > Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that the > risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting this is > the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will inevitably > take multiple steps and this is the first of those. > > We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision given > the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is required to > participate in person (that includes staff, contractors and supporting > volunteers), nor should any participants feel pressure to be onsite, we > believe that we are finding the correct balance between personal choice, > personal safety and meeting experience. > > The formal assessment is > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf > > Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than 14 > weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency situation > under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without community > consultation. > > > # Registrations > > Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the > registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we will > provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our onsite > COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed decision. > Registration fees will be the same for onsite participation as they have > been previously. > > > If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then please > either reply to admin-discuss@ietf.org or directly to me at > exec-director@ietf.org > > Jay > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Thu Dec 23 01:34:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FB23A14B0 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 01:33:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id chQa1w28roe2 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 01:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0323A14AB for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 01:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BN9Xok3003811 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:50 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id BF9E720212D for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B657E200C38 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BN9XoLu024189 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:50 +0100 Message-ID: <0dd21ca3-db66-743b-654c-2b7b6aa6088f@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> <004e2c97-cac4-3872-e9c2-715c97a7c4d2@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <004e2c97-cac4-3872-e9c2-715c97a7c4d2@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Austria reasoning Re: Fwd: IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:33:58 -0000 the paper about omicron hospital risk was published today: there is risk reduction. Le 22/12/2021 à 17:44, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > I stand corrected if someone from Austria thinks differently. > > But this is what I think now: > > Austria and IETF in March is a complete unknown. > > One can look at the form of the wave in Austria and maybe expect a > relative high in March, or not, because things change.  See attached. > > End of November it was good to plan for an in-person meeting in Austria > by mid-December because that was the plan for getting out of lockdown, > at that time. > > By mid-December I learned that the situation varies in Austria: Vienna, > cities and regions have different lockdown states and prolongation. > Then I thought it would not be good to plan an in-person meeting in > Austria before January. > > I also learned that Austria has this plan of mandatory vaccinaiton (not > just for specific crafts such as nursery or army, but more universal, > but still depending on age).  The deadline of starting such thing was > for beginning of February. > > Then I thought that would be the first in the world that a country makes > such a mandate of vaccination.  Maybe Israel too, but that is special > because of their special ongoing war state of mind, prior to covid > anyways.  In Israel they know what it means to 'lockdown' more than > anybody else; for example in some country there is not even a word to > express this 'lockdown' state, so they use the english word. COmparing > that countryùs understanding of 'lockdown' to ISrael's understanding of > same word is miles apart. > > Then it was said that it is not sure that Austria's Feb. 1st vaccination > mandate would work, because many oppose it.  That means many groups, > political as well as in the street, with manifestations ('meeting'). > These manifestations are rare now, but a growing event in some > countries.  They manifestate agaiinst covid overall, as if that would > scare the virus.  There are specific requests, but it is hard to tell > who could implement, or whose fault is.  Also, at political level > Austria goes through leadership change because of apparent corruption > aspects, doubly said. > > Then omicron arrived seriously. > > Still people say that omicron does not change the current vaccination > plan: every 4 months or so a dose of Pfizer.  But still omicron might > change the plan because the so-called vaccine is not really adapted to > it.  Maybe soon it will be admitted that the vaccination plan must > change.  Or maybe not. > > Omicron might change all that: for the better or for the worse. > > For the worse it might change it in that it could create bigger, more > and longer lockdwons everywhere, not just Austria.  Because lockdowns is > the only thing proven to work. > > For the better, omicron might change covid pandemics if it proves to > 'kill' delta and at the same time not send people to hospital.  It might > be a 'saviour'.  Or that might be just an illusion of these days. > A paper I read suggests that UK experience in omicron is that omicron is > not worse but not better than delta either, with respect to sending > people to hospital.  That paper says they cant say more and more data > i.e. more time is needed to think. > > Bill Gates and WHO head said in Decemner they hope 2022 ends the > pandemics, or that we have to make it end in 2022, or something like > that.  It's a sort of wish to tell others during New YEar's Eve. > Earlier Bill Gates also said 640k was enough for all and WHO also said > at some point that frontiers should not close.   So it is not sure what > to trust. > > That is what I think about Austria and IETF in March - a complete unknown. > > Alex > > Le 22/12/2021 à 15:44, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> fyi >> >> I have not read it completely >> >> >> >> -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet :     IETF 113 will be a >> hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria Date :     Wed, 22 Dec >> 2021 14:41:52 +1300 De :     IETF Executive Director >> Répondre à :     admin-discuss@ietf.org Pour >> : IETF Announcement List >> >> >> >> IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the >> onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 >> March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned >> Bangkok, Thailand. >> >> >> # Decision making >> >> In making this decision the IETF Administration LLC has carefully >> considered the current circumstances, the desire of the community >> and the guidance of the IESG to answer a series of questions: >> >> 1. Is it possible to hold an international onsite meeting? >> >> We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, >> as has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided >> that sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has >> clear and workable rules. Austria has clear and workable rules for >> entry into the country and conferences and restaurants. Clearly, the >> omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are responding >> to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However, >> we are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently >> managed by the time of the meeting that it can go ahead. >> >> >> 2. Is it safe to hold an international onsite meeting? >> >> We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international >> meeting. COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the mitigations >> and precautions are well understood and practised. Austria in >> particular has strict rules regarding entry to the >> country and in-country movement, excellent access to tests and >> strict controls on the unvaccinated. >> >> A strong majority of IETF participants reside in countries with easy >> access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people will >> not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the meeting, >> and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of >> unvaccinated people should not be considered discriminatory. >> >> The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not >> travel", but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting >> volunteers are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to >> take the risk. >> >> >> 3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the experience >> be for both those onsite and those online? >> >> The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of a >> normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be >> certain that this number will wish to participate onsite but we are >> willing to take the risk. >> >> This will not be a normal onsite meetings, it will be a hybrid >> onsite/online meeting with changes made so that any disadvantage to >> those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is planning >> a shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and new >> technology is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more integrated >> session experience. >> >> We believe that the financial risk is acceptable. The contract has a >> strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong >> cancel-and-rebook clause. >> >> 4. is it the right thing to do? >> >> Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that >> the risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting this >> is the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will >> inevitably take multiple steps and this is the first of those. >> >> We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision >> given the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is >> required to participate in person (that includes staff, contractors >> and supporting volunteers), nor should any participants feel >> pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are finding the correct >> balance between personal choice, personal safety and meeting >> experience. >> >> The formal assessment is >> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf >> >> >> >> > Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than >> 14 weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency >> situation under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without >> community consultation. >> >> >> # Registrations >> >> Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the >> registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we >> will provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our >> onsite COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed >> decision. Registration fees will be the same for onsite >> participation as they have been previously. >> >> >> If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then >> please either reply to admin-discuss@ietf.org or directly to me at >> exec-director@ietf.org >> >> Jay >> >> >> -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org >> >> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce >> mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >> list Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Thu Dec 23 15:46:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CE43A0CB0; 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Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:20:36 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "manycouches\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Bier Gartens for IETF 113 ... X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:20:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Campling wrote: > I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC > team would find useful? I think it would be beneficial to focus on > providing community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that wou= ld > improve the experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather > than second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the > detail already provided on the latter. Vienna in March is apparently above zero, and may be as high as 10C. Outdoor Biergartens would seem to be a good thing if allowed. This is even more true for Philadephia in July. The last Vienna meeting was in 2003, at a facility that was very hostile to informal gatherings, (with little to no nearby hotels). There is a lot of stuff in meeting criteria document about that event and other ones like it. We seem to be meeting at a big hotel this time, so this shouldn't as much of as issue. I tried to price renting a Double https://www.doublerobotics.com/ a few yea= rs ago (before pandemic) for a funeral I couldn't get to. I didn't go through with it, as there was nothing available. I know that we've seen a few of these at IETF meetings in the past, and there are some privacy/awareness issues in my opinion. It might beyond individuals to book, and beyond the LLC to provide for this. What might work is having a variety of nooks where there is a non-moving interface, perhaps logged into gather.town. I'm not sure how well it would work, I would be happy to actually try this out. At this point, I plan to travel. It looks like I can get a direct flight from Montreal if I press the right buttons on austrian.com (It wasn't easy!= ). I would normally fly to AMS and take a train with some side trips, but I'm concerned that the rules will change on me, and I'll find myself trying to find a new PCR test at some Schengen-internal border. I have been living with two hand made cloth masks since April 2020. (One is just worn out, the nose wire inside broke...), with some disposable ones. Wearing glasses with these masks for long times is not comfortable f= or me: a solveable problem, but working at home, I haven't solved it yet. I can walk through the grocery store without my glasses if I try. I will need to obtain FFP2 masks that will fit me to attend. We could have an entire thread on that if people like. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmHFElQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXxcQf+Ip6Cx4g3Wi4rluJkhQE3qmqv95GZkj9dEnDgM/UW4QDt2SNJqEJIwx0z zsf+nhCh8p5fOT50jrD8CTiqkdBDAHaoqjKp/Nuy4VeqgNds4/ZRPjhzCrZ+Hpp+ WZcDLpnS+nkPXiJrN2sIYmjevlDE+dhg1JalF1SS+V7ESMp2x5zv6yxfPfYCR6e6 HsaZZcfcabX/iS7AvXaHXyJxP8cEzkZqjUgtlqv7vrCWyqIySJIkf3nwDvKKmM81 TYgTMoQuTufDKQQzmkGxL5vAXLc9c8JhT/BjlW1UciuH94Mzv6LjNEXIYTuayXuM RcjIJDVj/P/DuaiYy2GjAzScsxChVQ== =8ZuM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Dec 23 16:35:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C213A0D15 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:35:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EfeNeSqOB2xN for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DA283A0D10 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB7345950D0; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:35:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yIQMP-n41EEf; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6B72B45950C7; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:35:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:35:06 +1300 Cc: "manycouches@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> To: Andrew Campling X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:35:16 -0000 Andrew > On 24/12/2021, at 12:46 PM, Andrew Campling = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 14:41:52 IETF Executive Director = wrote: > =20 > > IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the = onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 = March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned = Bangkok, Thailand. >=20 > I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC = team would find useful? I think it would be beneficial to focus on = providing community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would = improve the experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather = than second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the = detail already provided on the latter.=20 We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much discussion, = not much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people had read our = proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various measures we = might take. There have been two changes to that plan since then: - One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not = be permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in = principle. =20 - The other comes from the experiences of IETF=E2=80=99rs who = participated in some Linux Foundation events and particularly = appreciated the coloured wrist bands used to indicate comfort with = social discancing, which we are looking to incorporate some how We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and = mitigation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate = feedback on the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart = from which the specifics for 113 will be derived. cheers Jay [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/R-1NLlYaYrZ7ldFZ0oPQWC= FKfZg/ [2] = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings_in= _COVID-impacted_venues.pdf > =20 > =20 > Andrew=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Dec 23 16:38:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5773A0D1D for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:38:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q5bDChMp-6xq for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBAD63A0D1C for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF14845950D0; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:38:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EsbeI9rmekWz; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 273B445950C7; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:38:20 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:38:17 +1300 Cc: "manycouches@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <528A22FE-4F65-465E-9D07-BC4C85B72E60@ietf.org> References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> To: Andrew Campling X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:38:27 -0000 > On 24/12/2021, at 1:35 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Andrew >=20 >> On 24/12/2021, at 12:46 PM, Andrew Campling = wrote: >>=20 >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 14:41:52 IETF Executive Director = wrote: >>=20 >>> IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the = onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 = March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned = Bangkok, Thailand. >>=20 >> I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC = team would find useful? I think it would be beneficial to focus on = providing community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would = improve the experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather = than second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the = detail already provided on the latter.=20 >=20 > We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much = discussion, not much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people = had read our proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various = measures we might take. There have been two changes to that plan since = then: *not* relevant. Jay >=20 > - One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not = be permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in = principle. =20 > - The other comes from the experiences of IETF=E2=80=99rs who = participated in some Linux Foundation events and particularly = appreciated the coloured wrist bands used to indicate comfort with = social discancing, which we are looking to incorporate some how >=20 > We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and = mitigation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate = feedback on the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart = from which the specifics for 113 will be derived. >=20 > cheers > Jay >=20 > [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/R-1NLlYaYrZ7ldFZ0oPQWC= FKfZg/ > [2] = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings_in= _COVID-impacted_venues.pdf >>=20 >>=20 >> Andrew=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Dec 23 18:09:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24023A0E1D; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:09:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cn0jYMt0pFFj; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:09:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D649B3A0E1C; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14F238E0B; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 2fRDNbQguHc4; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0098438E0A; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:13:42 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1640312023; bh=jDKtFNmsp4Ua439Q1MGY/MAoVhdDY6bJuVYdviUoMqo=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=UICCraf13wP/QRPrjP4tWt4WI9SgZsMykckvKJKPOMhUbr1j79NdwcVRVJ4pTJd6w QDxSvW8BYgnCSpaTEDrHmSAGsgz/ySfYsNUgaTOn6EoD/IA/12puFjVVAcgztNBlD1 0zOXNVCs/J6hXtrB0a/sQF5IbfJo94a1oFCT3yU9LnN6k1apZWmZi06Hy9FXha/p75 Fr9ZLM/nq+pq5wOpWqHN2oiZ+8AOdAA8SaxxiijWduqlgJz3mBf/vgOEuRHTNWKYKu 6uQCoeI4ngoXnN6HGj1vf4HgTIYw+dzM16iZa4uxa+p4GCGJBTkzuP/HyIJKyhBSCK qQI/gCQSxK08A== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C4E7241; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:09:00 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , "manycouches\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <528A22FE-4F65-465E-9D07-BC4C85B72E60@ietf.org> References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> <528A22FE-4F65-465E-9D07-BC4C85B72E60@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 02:09:15 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: > few people had read our proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out > the various measures we might take. I recall browsing it at the time, and I couldn't see anything that I had any expertise to comment on :-) >> [2] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_m= eetings_in_COVID-impacted_venues.pdf Looking again I note that the idea of doing stuff outside is there already. (I now wonder if I'll find enough food that is compatible with me.) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmHFK7wACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXinAgAp2R04J40R3yzvB4a9Ic+/2y7JqXB3wZYIa0RirGNlPot4ublIT/77tFW ESU3+4atzkMzYx01AOU1UxaskIRjf6ENKaikLOrQF2amIvwzxfc9tW4o5TW57ANJ Q8OWiFnoiIHvZcyNTvXqDFdGIad7CeUSbUbeMTnhLYWMjmBI2SKUA3vvPrefPU1p mQgHa8hcVUwRAWP/U1fmXfMttJZn+y2TgwQhlPpdkoU5iLJpuirEM6Dh7MEpoeKk T9cTgdaJfLzbbEWfExF9Xo+P0wHN28rK5xFjLM0iUCdVc7s9AEGTCtM8KcTscQoH 1/9wGBzVrtzhaGL9+bAc0xLOryMvwg== =405D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 24 05:47:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C7D3A0B19; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 05:47:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gih.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sr_lVx_DkYdY; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 05:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from waikiki.gih.co.uk (salsa.gih.co.uk [IPv6:2a00:19e8:10:5::b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 941F83A0A29; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 05:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from waikiki.gih.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by waikiki.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A45A3200FA; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:46:44 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple; d=gih.co.uk; h=content-type :message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to:cc:references:from :in-reply-to; s=mahalo1; bh=m3FdO51T0ywcZLp9LEglCRXqXOI=; b=A7/X elA/HRRdKDEsCD0RVTfC/qgm8f8DTZaBkPjOoddTwoyAgXn7JKJOfMshG07WC+R+ pnGHPEo+HrKrYZcF0KoBw7GWEhTMUt3LqQEtjYNb/ICxc3p3Wel+CSUVS2Svvbqr Bm/UxVm85OqnxJIu4aE0LdKNiEJemriZ1PD7wdg= Received: from [IPV6:2a01:cb1d:6db:2f00:ac27:4fd:7a3e:461e] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:cb1d:6db:2f00:ac27:4fd:7a3e:461e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by waikiki.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7581032002C; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:46:43 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------rqU0HJ1BgXD1F5nsBuTubw8Y" Message-ID: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:46:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: en-GB To: Jay Daley , Andrew Campling Cc: "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?= In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:47:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------rqU0HJ1BgXD1F5nsBuTubw8Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay: On 24/12/2021 01:35, Jay Daley wrote: > We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much discussion= , not much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people had read ou= r proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various measures we m= ight take. There have been two changes to that plan since then: > > - One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not = be permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in principl= e. > - The other comes from the experiences of IETF=E2=80=99rs who participa= ted in some Linux Foundation events and particularly appreciated the colo= ured wrist bands used to indicate comfort with social discancing, which w= e are looking to incorporate some how > > We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and miti= gation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedback o= n the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart from which the= specifics for 113 will be derived. There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be=20 learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the=20 Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters.=20 Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion level=20 is unprecedented. Kindest regards, Olivier --------------rqU0HJ1BgXD1F5nsBuTubw8Y Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay:

On 24/12/2021 01:35, Jay Daley wrote:<= br>
We previously consulted on t=
his [1] and while there was much discussion, not much of it was relevant =
and it appeared that few people had read our proposed conditional plan [2=
], which sets out the various measures we might take.  There have been tw=
o changes to that plan since then:

- One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not be=
 permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in principle.=
 =20
- The other comes from the experiences of IETF=E2=80=99rs who participate=
d in some Linux Foundation events and particularly appreciated the colour=
ed wrist bands used to indicate comfort with social discancing, which we =
are looking to incorporate some how

We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and mitiga=
tion will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedback on =
the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart from which the s=
pecifics for 113 will be derived.

There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters. Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion level is unprecedented.
Kindest regards,

Olivier
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[70.185.177.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v6sm7935083pgj.82.2021.12.24.09.04.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:04:42 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:04:41 -0800 Cc: Jay Daley , Andrew Campling , manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19C56) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:04:49 -0000 I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my wife vis= ited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, and Austria see= ms think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By that rubric, I=E2=80=99ll b= e fine in March, but would need a fourth dose for a June meeting. I=E2=80=99= m unaware of any science behind this, and a little mystified by the entire l= ogic. Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond w= rote: >=20 > There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be learnt f= rom the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the Omicron variant i= s likely to change a lot of these parameters. Colleagues in London are confi= rming first hand that the contagion level is unprecedented. From nobody Fri Dec 24 09:16:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157933A0E11; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X98vnuvuhhDp; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDA523A0E10; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id x7so20227762lfu.8; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:15:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=p21nHQQzbt61SCClGONCIRywefRl7+vC6J1EUGChW54=; b=Lrx4YjYUV/m7QqBWpnKYkMn5xYNt1tFXroJyj2oekk4DxAixf7QQHW5e1uCY7KqiP8 Jr1pcqst4tTI5kcUYIl4O53yrPljQ9yv0C7DH467GkuOdmcEMg3GryWfvQKntz6Q8wxz sMmNqZ2gBCkOB/KKIStH0BXjQ6oedDxrHDdbk9Xc1cSY2mBvmbD/379dj9cmnRFPl5rp qDWTHXXs7YtxME6K1J8VE03lRqdfXMSLo5a+EDRTLzQlUQrT90qBRfoW/1GnCJYqmPdh +5eAWOo7De0AsIvwO8L84qwk9xpxuc23L0gtzL3yCOHk9Z8/6PG5ySsl5Xw+DbjAD9Zj 5pKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p21nHQQzbt61SCClGONCIRywefRl7+vC6J1EUGChW54=; b=uHTagfto79Y3YVju2sds5nf2+nWIJaeAMVynoXQZvoIVuHlFTkMbub4PvrAZQcZJH2 S8xfADoLYRJmFuL7KxaM7VMqoUQQ7oYRDO1dZRl2JEfpV6C+evrwgkCijc3XhQgnKk9b X/yWOIAdbjhf/PyUw5ddzwWBvouqMOZ58t6nz06azNiZ/w6TOb4EDqirmtVEnuYtFjPH vi2xoWcF8MSjYsfnih7uR2815ukYBhhwE99uJZ3d650EuB8gTmt6OePoH9HDmeBoKtSF V2dYSI5aMZy/Ff1oo1aIgpdTI7t29AWLgNZMZgluSkHdZWLgyiiW1n/3PmsZm2aiIS6D fdKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532VJ4hvpTHQvzl22uRXFCoZFrdpwwkdSYERr6h7xRLIa+GDcfdI guyUbLSPOPlE/y322HTzRG3iZsvzU11nH+dxGODkU6JVG1c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3KtWbYE6kcp3DDR4eruGRp+1LxaA74XF/0S51UaJ5kBDoczzB/630/2RVrzUBOh2m7MDw2NMhsb4yeUbVLEM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3406:: with SMTP id i6mr2696277lfr.509.1640366156188; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:15:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8bd24985-7928-9174-bb34-298964133332@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 11:15:45 -0600 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Andrew Campling , "manycouches@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000a92c405d3e78254" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:16:04 -0000 --0000000000000a92c405d3e78254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jay, Holding March meeting in Vienna is a good decision, I support it. Behcet On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 6:35 PM Jay Daley wrote: > Andrew > > > On 24/12/2021, at 12:46 PM, Andrew Campling > wrote: > > > > On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 14:41:52 IETF Executive Director < > exec-director@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the > onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 > March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok= , > Thailand. > > > > I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC tea= m > would find useful? I think it would be beneficial to focus on providing > community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would improve the > experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather than > second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the detail > already provided on the latter. > > We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much discussion, > not much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people had read our > proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various measures we mig= ht > take. There have been two changes to that plan since then: > > - One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not be > permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in principle. > - The other comes from the experiences of IETF=E2=80=99rs who participate= d in some > Linux Foundation events and particularly appreciated the coloured wrist > bands used to indicate comfort with social discancing, which we are looki= ng > to incorporate some how > > We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and > mitigation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedba= ck > on the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart from which th= e > specifics for 113 will be derived. > > cheers > Jay > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/R-1NLlYaYrZ7ldFZ0oPQW= CFKfZg/ > [2] > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings_i= n_COVID-impacted_venues.pdf > > > > > > Andrew > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --0000000000000a92c405d3e78254 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jay,

Holding March meeting in Vienna= is a good decision, I support it.


= Behcet

On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 6:35 PM Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
Andrew

> On 24/12/2021, at 12:46 PM, Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.co= nsulting> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 14:41:52 IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0
> > IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the = onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 Marc= h 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok, Thai= land.
>
> I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC te= am would find useful?=C2=A0 I think it would be beneficial to focus on prov= iding community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would improve= the experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather than second-= guessing the decision-making process, especially given the detail already p= rovided on the latter.

We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much discussion, no= t much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people had read our prop= osed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various measures we might tak= e.=C2=A0 There have been two changes to that plan since then:

- One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not be p= ermitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in principle.=C2= =A0
- The other comes from the experiences of IETF=E2=80=99rs who participated = in some Linux Foundation events and particularly appreciated the coloured w= rist bands used to indicate comfort with social discancing, which we are lo= oking to incorporate some how

We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and mitigati= on will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedback on the = rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart from which the specifi= cs for 113 will be derived.

cheers
Jay

[1]
https://mailarch= ive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/R-1NLlYaYrZ7ldFZ0oPQWCFKfZg/
[2] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings= _in_COVID-impacted_venues.pdf
>=C2=A0
>=C2=A0
> Andrew

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@i= etf.org

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--0000000000000a92c405d3e78254-- From nobody Fri Dec 24 14:46:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A023A11C4 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:46:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eN4rroScWcJi for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D68023A11C2 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BOMkL6o027721 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:46:21 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A0A8D20564D for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:46:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F20200FA2 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:46:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.4] ([10.14.0.4]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BOMkLuW003467 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:46:21 +0100 Message-ID: <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:46:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 22:46:30 -0000 Le 24/12/2021 à 18:04, Fred Baker a écrit : > I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my > wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, > and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By > that rubric, I’ll be fine in March, but would need a fourth dose for > a June meeting. I’m unaware of any science behind this, and a little > mystified by the entire logic. I dont know about Austria. But I know me advising all around me to plan right now for the next dose in 3 months time. I got my 3rd recently and I will click regularly on on the URL to check when bookings are open so I can get my 4th dose in March, hopefully 3 months after my 3rd. And so on every 3 months during 2022. Why? Because the local HAS (Haute Autorité de la Santé, high authority of health) says 3 months is best. They said so today. Until today they said differently. They said first 7 months, then they said 6 months, then they said 4 months. Also because I learn 2bn doses were already ordered in Europe. The source of this info is a printed news paper. 270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an old info that would probably be modified soon. It would be strange an EU country thinks different than another, in this respect. IT would be strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we are all homo sapiens, in whatever country. But I should ask Austrians. There are other infos that circulated recently from people with reputation: it was said that 3rd dose would be last. Is that still true? I will know that at latest in March. About the science of this. I am not a medical person, but this is what I he.ard Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory immunity, and antibodies. The first cant be measured and is not understood, but it works when it works. The second can be measured in a blood sample. Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND. Whatever we know about the second (the antibodies) can be nullified by the first: one can have no antibodies and still kill viruses, we dont know why. But if we have many antibodies then we are sure to fight well. The curve of antibody depletion after dose is an asymptotical; it was measured - statistically - among many people, and they came up with this 7 month number. But in an asymptotical there is certainly not just one number, but several (the fall is not a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal). Also, that common curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many people, just like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above whereas others swim below. I dont know mine precisely. Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that this vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long time, hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 month spacing between doses. Just hold on to it as much as possible: not travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc. Alex > > Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > >> On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond >> wrote: >> >> There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be >> learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the >> Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters. >> Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion >> level is unprecedented. > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Sun Dec 26 02:36:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD9B3A0C28; Sun, 26 Dec 2021 02:36:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sun, 26 Dec 2021 11:36:00 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 11:35:59 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Fred Baker Cc: Jay Daley , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <463046892.28364.1640514960037@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:36:10 -0000 > Il 24/12/2021 18:04 Fred Baker ha scritto: > =20 > I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my wife = visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, and Austria= seems think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By that rubric, I=E2=80= =99ll be fine in March, but would need a fourth dose for a June meeting. I= =E2=80=99m unaware of any science behind this, and a little mystified by th= e entire logic. The deadline is likely to be brought down to 180 days everywhere in Europe = (in fact in Italy it already was, three days ago). The science behind this = is the preliminary data from the UK on the effectiveness of current vaccine= s against Omicron, notably the table on page 14 of Report #48:=20 https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/= report-48-global-omicron/ Data seem to suggest that boosters might be necessary every 3-4 months, wit= h six months possibly staying - for organizational reasons - as the maximum= deadline after which you lose your sanitary pass.=20 --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 27 08:09:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4253A0D54 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:09:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.052 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.052 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LhYx-xjQ5-cb for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60B8A3A0D52 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id h21so14482352ljh.3 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:09:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=qRMKtCUxtXC/OQJjN1cBaVl6HNa9TMLvh4vsDGT8uAQ=; b=msP3SJA6QIgUMZbfDxiGimN2VgiIONwtIF/rI9lh36C9QeI07jaUEzPCn1Iq7sq/Jr xmgrhMkWl8iuD5LZjIdfHfw8r6Z7Kf6trJyaGzL2tWvq1DX+sYQxK6aXkzmEgZO9Z49E nqjrkrfDFyMJMhgD8h1lbh5px0f0yD5clK2edajn9Vb3wnouNP2FvWu9XuSiExL3J0Ee hLky1rm9F1BT+DRvvkqcN/p2zI8LOgbWr0zlQiI9frx3Ifl3iX8A4mEsbZFfDp6xfwCE q4zZE+l2bIE4MgGz04/FItzVFxbwhEbW57oetywEhNYHpSeJQMt6hkG9PnnjUGGE74xN sADQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qRMKtCUxtXC/OQJjN1cBaVl6HNa9TMLvh4vsDGT8uAQ=; b=BbN9kijhf+2mDheS9KlaesxldsR1dwPO9sfIKN6NJMm+uSobFw3hEm3S9PvzDGMFRV WWRvdxnWiKWBlS8Q7Vu7TGKcVz2mwbYP1snXE++WOVWbj+hkDvuG9BH7DGNakr5grS1c U4Cq2rCOTFjdIt4tt4NKTBy1R7v6s8Tf1zHNVQCmYkLHcXBu+H5HoFnGzq1a8wvsaTiU 6HSO/fzv66OMRNwV8grFM1NTY23KBVxoRvmYinTGhXNtEU173higIGy3zJM+zC6f0BbX JSUcbsTVtgzsAfN67ZsC9aP9vZIs8Kw7+51Vrtr3JY86y36MHOnYixyQKql76ctUC2nU 1nNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532A4JAUPbCEoGrd+E19MHrVsPc//AbiJJPaTU4nIZA4t2TW4ezo Rj6mc7BB3NPGN78q4+JEPbOnzUBkweL27vo4HQo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjKXPwtGzMz7ewVJWwXITPrqVBqG6/q9xJuvDgENQ+ffhesWj1ExT2Mdz8ShMrA7pLRFoCxPVaXhDllsEqVrk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:884e:: with SMTP id z14mr14424139ljj.523.1640621338837; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:08:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:08:47 -0600 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001cc65105d422ec14" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:09:07 -0000 --0000000000001cc65105d422ec14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:46 PM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Le 24/12/2021 =C3=A0 18:04, Fred Baker a =C3=A9crit : > > I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my > > wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, > > and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By > > that rubric, I=E2=80=99ll be fine in March, but would need a fourth dos= e for > > a June meeting. I=E2=80=99m unaware of any science behind this, and a l= ittle > > mystified by the entire logic. > > I dont know about Austria. > > But I know me advising all around me to plan right now for the next dose > in 3 months time. I got my 3rd recently and I will click regularly on > on the URL to check when bookings are open so I can get my 4th dose in > March, hopefully 3 months after my 3rd. And so on every 3 months during > 2022. > > Why? Because the local HAS (Haute Autorit=C3=A9 de la Sant=C3=A9, high a= uthority > of health) says 3 months is best. They said so today. Until today they > said differently. They said first 7 months, then they said 6 months, > then they said 4 months. > > Also because I learn 2bn doses were already ordered in Europe. The > source of this info is a printed news paper. > > 270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an old > info that would probably be modified soon. It would be strange an EU > country thinks different than another, in this respect. IT would be > strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we are all homo > sapiens, in whatever country. But I should ask Austrians. > > There are other infos that circulated recently from people with > reputation: it was said that 3rd dose would be last. Is that still > true? I will know that at latest in March. > > About the science of this. I am not a medical person, but this is what > I he.ard Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory immunity, and > antibodies. The first cant be measured and is not understood, but it > works when it works. The second can be measured in a blood sample. > Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND. Whatever we know about > the second (the antibodies) can be nullified by the first: one can have > no antibodies and still kill viruses, we dont know why. But if we have > many antibodies then we are sure to fight well. The curve of antibody > depletion after dose is an asymptotical; it was measured - statistically > - among many people, and they came up with this 7 month number. But in > an asymptotical there is certainly not just one number, but several (the > fall is not a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal). Also, > that common curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many > people, just like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above > whereas others swim below. I dont know mine precisely. > > Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that this > vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long time, > hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 month > spacing between doses. Just hold on to it as much as possible: not > travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc. > > Alex, in the US there is no 4th dose requirement as of now. They said no special vaccine is mandated for Omicron. Actually Omicron seems to spread very fast but it does not make you very sick, kind of a light flu, I know that from my relatives who got it. So right now so many people, sports celebrities, etc have caught Omicron, they just isolate themselves until they test negative. So for Austria's 9 month requirement, for me it is OK, I believe for almost everyone in the US it will be OK because 3rd dose or the booster dose started in October-November 2021, giving enough window of at least 9 months. Behcet > Alex > > > > > Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > > > >> On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond > >> wrote: > >> > >> There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be > >> learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the > >> Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters. > >> Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion > >> level is unprecedented. > > > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > > list Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --0000000000001cc65105d422ec14 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=


Le 24/12/2021 =C3=A0 18:04, Fred Baker a =C3=A9crit :
> I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my > wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, <= br> > and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By
> that rubric, I=E2=80=99ll be fine in March, but would need a fourth do= se for
> a June meeting. I=E2=80=99m unaware of any science behind this, and a = little
> mystified by the entire logic.

I dont know about Austria.

But I know me advising all around me to plan right now for the next dose in 3 months time.=C2=A0 I got my 3rd recently and I will click regularly on=
on the URL to check when bookings are open so I can get my 4th dose in
March, hopefully 3 months after my 3rd.=C2=A0 And so on every 3 months duri= ng
2022.

Why?=C2=A0 Because the local HAS (Haute Autorit=C3=A9 de la Sant=C3=A9, hig= h authority
of health) says 3 months is best.=C2=A0 They said so today.=C2=A0 Until tod= ay they
said differently.=C2=A0 They said first 7 months, then they said 6 months,<= br> then they said 4 months.

Also because I learn 2bn doses were already ordered in Europe.=C2=A0 The source of this info is a printed news paper.

270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an old
info that would probably be modified soon.=C2=A0 It would be strange an EU<= br> country thinks different than another, in this respect.=C2=A0 IT would be strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we are all homo sapiens, in whatever country.=C2=A0 But I should ask Austrians.

There are other infos that circulated recently from people with
reputation: it was said that 3rd dose would be last.=C2=A0 Is that still true?=C2=A0 I will know that at latest in March.

About the science of this.=C2=A0 I am not a medical person, but this is wha= t
I he.ard=C2=A0 Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory immunity, and<= br> antibodies.=C2=A0 The first cant be measured and is not understood, but it<= br> works when it works.=C2=A0 The second can be measured in a blood sample. Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND.=C2=A0 Whatever we know abou= t
the second (the antibodies) can be nullified by the first: one can have
no antibodies and still kill viruses, we dont know why.=C2=A0 But if we hav= e
many antibodies then we are sure to fight well.=C2=A0 The curve of antibody=
depletion after dose is an asymptotical; it was measured - statistically - among many people, and they came up with this 7 month number.=C2=A0 But i= n
an asymptotical there is certainly not just one number, but several (the fall is not a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal).=C2=A0 Also, that common curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many
people, just like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above
whereas others swim below.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I dont know mine precisely.

Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that this
vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long time,
hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 month
spacing between doses.=C2=A0 Just hold on to it as much as possible: not travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc.


Alex, in the US there is no 4th dose r= equirement as of now.
They said no special vaccine is mandated fo= r Omicron. Actually Omicron seems to spread very fast but it does not make = you very sick, kind of a light flu, I know that from my relatives who got i= t.

So right now so many people, sports celebrities= , etc have caught Omicron, they just isolate themselves until they test neg= ative.

So for Austria's 9 month requirement, f= or me it is OK, I =C2=A0believe for almost everyone in the US it will be OK= because 3rd dose or the booster dose started in October-November=C2=A02021= , giving enough window of at least 9 months.

--0000000000001cc65105d422ec14-- From nobody Mon Dec 27 09:46:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435003A0F09 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:46:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.183 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.183 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I947HiGkFwlk for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B8D53A0F04 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BRHkgUx032201; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:46:42 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EAB8E20740B; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:46:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD066207340; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:46:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.101] ([10.14.0.101]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BRHkflQ005337; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:46:41 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:46:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:46:51 -0000 Le 27/12/2021 à 17:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit : > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:46 PM Alexandre Petrescu > > > wrote: > > > > Le 24/12/2021 à 18:04, Fred Baker a écrit : >> I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When >> my wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination >> requirements, and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in >> 270 days. By that rubric, I’ll be fine in March, but would need a >> fourth dose for a June meeting. I’m unaware of any science behind >> this, and a little mystified by the entire logic. > > I dont know about Austria. > > But I know me advising all around me to plan right now for the next > dose in 3 months time. I got my 3rd recently and I will click > regularly on on the URL to check when bookings are open so I can get > my 4th dose in March, hopefully 3 months after my 3rd. And so on > every 3 months during 2022. > > Why? Because the local HAS (Haute Autorité de la Santé, high > authority of health) says 3 months is best. They said so today. > Until today they said differently. They said first 7 months, then > they said 6 months, then they said 4 months. > > Also because I learn 2bn doses were already ordered in Europe. The > source of this info is a printed news paper. > > 270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an > old info that would probably be modified soon. It would be strange > an EU country thinks different than another, in this respect. IT > would be strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we > are all homo sapiens, in whatever country. But I should ask > Austrians. > > There are other infos that circulated recently from people with > reputation: it was said that 3rd dose would be last. Is that still > true? I will know that at latest in March. > > About the science of this. I am not a medical person, but this is > what I he.ard Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory > immunity, and antibodies. The first cant be measured and is not > understood, but it works when it works. The second can be measured > in a blood sample. Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND. > Whatever we know about the second (the antibodies) can be nullified > by the first: one can have no antibodies and still kill viruses, we > dont know why. But if we have many antibodies then we are sure to > fight well. The curve of antibody depletion after dose is an > asymptotical; it was measured - statistically - among many people, > and they came up with this 7 month number. But in an asymptotical > there is certainly not just one number, but several (the fall is not > a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal). Also, that common > curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many people, just > like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above whereas others > swim below. I dont know mine precisely. > > Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that > this vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long > time, hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 > month spacing between doses. Just hold on to it as much as possible: > not travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc. > > > Alex, in the US there is no 4th dose requirement as of now. They said > no special vaccine is mandated for Omicron. Actually Omicron seems to > spread very fast but it does not make you very sick, kind of a light > flu, I know that from my relatives who got it. Thanks for the experience. It is good to know, I set it aside. For info, I learned today a 2-dose vaccinated 41yr person close to me, here got the omicron too, but spent 3 days at hospital under respiratory (not intube in throat) and now she's back to work. It all happened entirely in December, very fast. Still her smell and taste are not back, and it represents a risk to her work, but at least she can work. > So right now so many people, sports celebrities, etc have caught > Omicron, they just isolate themselves until they test negative. Ah? I wish them the best. I hear too that there are so many cases that it falls equally probably on flight personnel (cabin, pilots, et) so they cancel flights, so flightaware says. > So for Austria's 9 month requirement, for me it is OK, I believe for > almost everyone in the US it will be OK because 3rd dose or the > booster dose started in October-November 2021, giving enough window > of at least 9 months. Hmm, it is ok to think that way too. I also read recently that the person inventor of Pfizer shot said 3 are necessary against omicron, that today Israel starts 4th dose to 60yr+ and doctors in contact. On the contrary, there is said also that some scientists talk about a potential 'fatigue' of immunity systems when presented with too many doses. It is also said that might be that omicron wave goes very high and ends very soon. Or not. The question is of course about the relevance of this kind of discussion in this group, to the organisiation of IETF hybrid-or-not meetings. I admit the following, before others tell me I should, sorry: - it might be that the entire discussion here is irrelevant, and hte WG is irrelevant altogether. This kind of discussion is in a scientific panel of a decision body, not in a WG at IETF. - it might be that the IETF decision making bodies need inputs, but it is not clear how they want that inputs and by which channel. It is not clear whether a scientific panel more dedicated to these medical aspects might be necessary. - it is not clear whether we want these discussions public or private. - there is a high risk of deviation of discussion into extreme points of view: vaxx, anti-, collapsology and so on. At IETF we are used with these proportions, but still there is a risk. Sorry about that! Alex > > > Behcet > > Alex > >> >> Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... >> >>> On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond >>> > wrote: >>> >>> There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also >>> be learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that >>> the Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these >>> parameters. Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that >>> the contagion level is unprecedented. >> >> _______________________________________________ Manycouches >> mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > From nobody Mon Dec 27 11:45:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB81E3A113A for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:45:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vR-YVnqnkNnM for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6F7D3A1138 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id v25so14245768pge.2 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:45:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K2Kkvj16kV6JkLpQuLgTS26gQOJRc9R3Q3SlS/IaHKE=; b=badIWy0q6Jg22SYV8UUFh6WH2uEkHSfWbZuHsj5IBq3nnj6Jnq4KLqhO9DxM+qrfZr 13dXrztU4cYZh4f0o1jYLjQDzJSfp+GBi8ynf5n9BVYFLIp418tj2n+mZMhXkhgaNyWA 8ERjg/ZYg6WVX/PR5+rR/jYb/J06Q4f1DgUTpamFa88C6w4XQBd4ZLWByczD14fRaSIW 2g/kpqp05wzBIZGBm3K57Nf11RNWi1Cotg+zqAF1Row0xj5MajbV2GB1Ovpj2RDVExAq WOT0EvdgZuanZFRQxLYwW985NmYtxJDBsivmesRDxi81KrmkBmvIagD6JvJtCv1xc9zm 0Yqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=K2Kkvj16kV6JkLpQuLgTS26gQOJRc9R3Q3SlS/IaHKE=; b=lp8djLTMl91fVyAluzl7dVAgRWtkrEtWB9XVio902EqSVmX01mJQhhALiqq4Jjq1X1 sL94IQpcCsvhIEBJb2UQsWLtEl7Lp2Bhrokxv4/uUg5x+n+YhhdOyLecjeg8SC6mG6SQ Qj7+LZX3hit4XOmWbqVLJDizolT94SCGYoxnXbcBJt8qsE1tGvXwvw4U1ipVtiNJHkfW wA165oMO4TJTNV7AYmkK7hLHnqNs3FBFRQZGJ9WAj5fJKS8v7wYHwrMuHXXLfdZmvj+S 95bDes8GNoNvLujnKeb0+guoTZbtmRGaIU9N+WCILPjy5xemgpvFUUgvuOGHkR+dSQYS T5zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532VLEgjcUL818+iWscGtd5KT7tsmzWBjFWNHIOpuoENfxrMSo1b F1eH2kX7mUbB6l6gitTTAAi5FQHGv93GrQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyw1Qai8I7pDn3D1heK8pT0G6x8K5UYLIvGMh811mM2/p7xFdFFe24pvZqDP9vZFNsAbDkDw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9298:0:b0:4ba:7d3a:1742 with SMTP id j24-20020aa79298000000b004ba7d3a1742mr18986063pfa.62.1640634325358; Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x40sm17255639pfu.185.2021.12.27.11.45.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:45:24 -0800 (PST) To: sarikaya@ieee.org, Alexandre Petrescu Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <451ef434-5b09-2125-c9e5-7d5613cae970@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 08:45:20 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:45:33 -0000 On 28-Dec-21 05:08, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: ... > Alex, in the US there is no 4th dose requirement as of now. > They said no special vaccine is mandated for Omicron. Actually Omicron seems to spread very fast but it does not make you very sick, kind of a light flu, I know that from my relatives who got it. Except for the people who get seriously ill or die from it. With an increased probability of infection mutiplied by a reduced probability of serious illness or death, I think it is very complacent to dismiss it in the same terms that idiots like Bolsonaro used, at least for people in one of the high risk groups. Also if you read the "Report 48" study that Vittorio cited, you will see that additional booster doses are in discussion, and that an Omicron-specific vaccine is very likely to be developed. The science changes every day. I don't think I'd want to risk a non-refundable air fare these days. Brian